40k Rules Conundrum: The Ancient Salamanders

 

Lets talk about the rules debate behind the Salamanders’ secret weapon, the Ancient.

Last week I talked about why the Salamanders are the best of the Codex Chapters. As can be expected there was some healthy debate among players about this pronouncement. In particular there was a lot of debate, and misunderstanding,  about how the Salamanders’ Chapter Tactic interacted with the Astartes Banner ability that several Ancients get. You can check that article to see what I said about the ability, but the long and short of it is that each time a model gets to attack from the Ancient’s ablity it gets rerolls. Now some people contended that the ability would work differently then I described, so lets take a look at the abilities in questions and walk through a few examples.

The Abilities

Just to get everyone on the same page, here is the Salamanders Chapter Tactic:

 

And here is the Astartes Banner:

Now lets take a look at some examples of how these work.

Our Squad

For the purposes of these examples we will be using a small squad of 5 Tactical Marines. One member of the squad is armed with a Lascannon. In addition the Sergeant has a powerfist. Keep these guys in mind. Now lets walk through a turn and the various ways the Salamander ability works.

Example 1: Shooting Phase

Lets start simple. In my shooting phase I decide to target an enemy unit. I manage to hit with all my shoots, but the lasconnon which misses. Due to my chapter tactic I get to re-roll this, and its a hit! I also fail to wound with the lascannon (on a 2+ come on!) but reroll it for a wound. Simple right? Any questions?  No? Good lets move on.

Example 2: Fight Phase

My shooting was good, but not enough to wipe out the enemy, so I charge my squad into them. In the ensuing fight my sergeants power fist misses once, so I get to reroll that, and I also reroll a wound with a tactical marine. Again pretty simple, each time I shoot or fight I get one to hit and one to wound reroll. All is working well.

Example 3: Fight phase, part 2

At the end of the fight phase I chose to use the stratagem “Honour the Chapter” to allow my squad to fight for a second time. Because Master Artisans allows me to reroll each time I shoot or fight, I again get to reroll a hit and wound, nice! Thats twice in one phase, and it allowed me to kill the enemy unit. Unfortunately it does mean I am going to get shot.

Example 4: Enemy Shooting Phase

Now it’s my opponents turn and sadly they get to shoot me. She picks a unit and fires at my squad, and one of my brave dudes goes down. But wait! I am within 6 inches of an Astartes Banner, I roll a dice and get a 5. Now my Marine gets to take a last shot before being removed, and since I am shooting I again get to reroll a hit and a wound.

Example 5: Enemy Shooting Phase, part 2

That only seems to have made them mad. My opponent fires another unit at me, two of my marines go down this time, and one of them rolls a 4+ with the banner, he gets to shoot back! Since this is a new instance of the squad shooting, guess what! He gets to re roll a hit or a miss.

Example 6: Enemy Shooting Phase, Part 3

A third squad fires on my last two marines. Under a barrage of fire they both go down. This time both of them roll 4+ with the Astartes Banner and get to make last shots. Now here comes the real question: How many rerolls do I get? Lets take a look at the debate on this and how people have answered the question.

Answer A:

Some people will say I should get no re-rolls at all on this attack or the last one as I’ve already gotten to re-roll this phase. This is a clear misconception as the Chapter Tactic happens each time the unit shoots or fights, not once per phase. We can discount this answer as wrong.

Answer B:

A number of people have argued that I should not get any re-rolls in the shooting phase. They argue that the Astartes Banner ability does not trigger the chapter tactic at all. This is based off of the wording of the two abilities. The Astartes Banner allows a model to shoot, while the chapter tactic works for “A Salamanders unit with this tactic each time is shoots or fights.” They argue because the model, not the unit is shooting or fighting it does not get re-rolls.

 

However I feel these arguments are all pretty moot. The Astartes Banner allows the model to shoot “as if it were the shooting phase.” Lets quickly take a peak at step one of the shooting phase:

 

 

As you can see the first step of shooting in the shooting phase it to pick a unit. There is no way, using the shooting phase rules, for a model to fire on its on, shooting is done by units. This interaction is basically the as when a unit with only one assault weapon shoots after advancing. Though only the model with the assault weapon can shoot, it is still the unit shooting. Because you following the shoot, or fight phase rules which are the same, you have to pick a unit, and thus the Chapter Tactic works.

Answer C

A third group of people argue that you get to re-roll one hit and one wound, while it does trigger each time the unit shoots or fights it is only shooting once, with both remaining models getting to attack. While this seems to make a certain logic sense it is the least supported result by the rules. According to the rules attacks are resolved one at a time. More importantly wounds are allocated (and saves made) one at a time. This means that each marine’s death takes place at a separate time and triggers separate attacks from the Astartes Banner. This leads us to:

Answer D

The correct answer, according to the rules is that each Marine is a separate attack and thus both of them get to re-roll a hit and a wound. Not clear on that? Lets look at it in more depth.

Since you resolve attacks and wounds one by one it works like this: When shooting at the tactical marines you assign a wound, fail the save, then roll for the Astartes Banner for that one model, resolve his shots, then assign wounds the remaining wounds to the final model and make saves until he dies. When he dies you again roll for the Astartes Banner and with a successful roll triggers a second instance of the squad shooting which allows the Chapter Tactic to again trigger. Again, each attack is resolved on its own, and since it does not all happen at the same time, but one by one, each use of the banner triggers a separate shooting attack and each new attack gives your re-rolls.

Final Thoughts

So there you have it. A step by step breakdown of Salamanders rerolls and how they work with the Astartes Banner. For those of you keeping track in this example the one unit got to make a total of 14 rerolls in one turn. Now while this is an extreme example its not an impossible one, and as you can see getting 8-10 rerolls a turn is well within reason. Clearly a powerful ability once your really understand it.

 So there you have! So many rerolls! Let us know what you think about these rules, and how awesome you think Salamanders are, down in the comments! 

  • AircoolUK

    /facepalm

  • Koen Diepen Van

    And then there where all those ppl hopeing rules would beeng badly written and beeing creatively used would be a thing of thing of the past whit 8th edition. WHAHAAAAAAAAA. GW and Gamers never change.

    • Lyca Atteneder

      ‘creativly used’ is a nice term for it…

    • Seienchin

      Its a completely diferent problem to the past. Before WHFB and 40k started the excessive rerroling and comboing the biggest problems were under or overcosted units which was mostly a matter of badly written / calculated stuff. Now thre are som any combinations that everyone just loses their overview.

      • Tushan

        We still have grossly overcosted units in 8th.

        Say hi to LoTD and thunderfires for example.

      • Muninwing

        too many rules opens up loopholes

        too few rules opens up vagueness

        both result in the combo-searchers finding an unintended power-combo that overwhelms the game until GW gets around to FAQing it. which in some editions would take years.

    • Drew

      I’m as casual a player as they come, but this doesn’t seem like a stretch to me- it’s a pretty straightforward read of the rules. It’s good, but hardly game-breaking (it’s just a bolter, after all); it’s not like you’re going to allocate the wound to your lascannon on purpose in the hopes that he will die and get a 50% chance of shooting again, just for that re-roll…

      • Koen Diepen Van

        Yea i think those to things are related. (beeing casual and thinking its not good) It is not just a bolter it is every thing. Because in the end your lasscannon will die 2. Every little advantage helps because over the run of a game a small advantage will turn into a big advantage. But besides that, that was not even the point. The point is that no matter what you do to game there will always be advantages and exploits. Checkers might is the simplest game ever but when you would play a clone of of yourself the one that goes second has a bigger chance to win because of how the game works. Ppl thinking 8th edition would change how commutative is played where just deluding themselves. .

    • DoctorBored

      The hope is that this new GW, intent on connecting with the community, will release a FAQ of some sort. Otherwise, wiping out squads of Salamanders will be very annoying, and Ancients will be the prime target of enemy armies.

  • YetAnotherFacelessMan

    Okay. It’s a good combo. It all checks out. Why is that a problem?

    • LeroyJenkinss

      Because you’re an a hole for rules lawyering like that

      • YetAnotherFacelessMan

        I’m an a-hole for rules lawyering? I don’t even understand how this requires a “rules paralegal” or a “rules intern”. The rule is like “If X, then Y”. This other thing causes X to happen.

        But maybe you’re right. Maybe I’m a jerk. Let’s check out the context here.

        First, let’s look at the warlord trait. While I’ve always contended from the day it leaked that this was a strong one, a lot of people were extremely “meh” about the salamander trait. Some even went so far as to claim it was the weakest. Regardless, there were a lot of people who claimed the salamanders had been “screwed over” by their “boring chapter tactic”.

        Now, ancients. Ancients can be taken by any chapter and do the exact same thing across the board. Salamander ancients are no better than regular ancients in regards to their special ability (though more accurate/deadly with their weapons, since they don’t have to share their chapter tactic bonus). The ancient banner rule isn’t any better than usual, though.

        Now, taken together: When a salamander dies, it has a 50% chance of making a last-ditch attack before it hits the dirt. If the ancient has the relic banner, that’s a 67% chance instead. That’s exactly like every other type of marine. What’s different is that the salamanders each get a reroll that they can use at some point as they die.

        Now, that’s a space marine dead. He isn’t even guaranteed the death shot, like a noise marine would be. He’s more likely to pass his armor save in the first place than he is to get a chance to shoot, and the ability only works when he dies. If your marines are dying in your opponent’s turn they aren’t shooting in yours, with the possible exception of one marine due to apothecary (another 50/50 gamble).

        This isn’t a reliable tactic. I played a game against a primaris marine player with his banner next to his hellblasters; that banner didn’t trigger once. Even if it had triggered 5 times, I would have preferred having a hellblaster dead for the rest of the game, even if it meant he got to shoot one more time.

        I’m not seeing how this is an issue. Let the Salamanders die with glory. You’re still killing them.

        tl;dr: People are telling salamander players to stop killing themselves because somehow dying is OP?

        • Andy Wise

          Thanks for that. A nice rational sounding rebuttal, regardless of which side of the argument you come down on. Also major kudos on the dignified response to unpleasant name calling. Bit of class right here

        • Brettila

          It does not say each model gets the reroll.

      • Brettila

        And, I’d be willing to bet that is not how it is meant to be.

  • Graham Bartram

    BoLS, this site is getting slooooooooowww…. No seriously, it’s bloody ridiculous. I can load 10 other pages whilst BoLS loads.

    • Tigirus

      I think it’s due to the excessive ads. When the page has video ads open I find the browser starts to chug a lot, even to the point it can crash my phone browser. When there’s no ads loaded it seems to work just fine.

      The real question is why the guys at BoLS are so willing to sabotage their own website for ad revenue. I understand that they need to pay for the site but there’s got to be a better way to do it.

      • euansmith

        I don’t think that BoLS has any control over the ads. I seem to remember them saying a while ago that the ads are spammed by the company running the site server.

        • Gorsameth

          Its their site and therefor their responsibility.

          ‘But my host’ is not an excuse where there are a thousand other hosts to chose from.

        • Chris Hilliard

          Google Ads and other ad servers base their pushes on what a sites viewers have been doing. Since video ads have been succesful on BoLS in the past, we end up in an endless loop.

          • euansmith

            So the readers are to blame? Victim blaming! 😀 😀 😉

      • orionburn

        It does become a catch 22 – run ads to bring in money to run the site, or run ads which drive people away which doesn’t bring you money to run a site.

        I have no problems with ads. I could care less. But there is some broke AF things going on causing the site to bog down badly. It’s never been crazy fast, but over the past few weeks it has gotten terrible.

      • William Jameson

        Not just the ads, all of the embedded YouTube and Twitch videos on the right side of the page aren’t helping either.

    • orionburn

      Agreed. It constantly spins like it is always loaded. It’s getting to the point where I’m seriously ready to stop coming to the site. It’s getting unbearable.

    • Spacefrisian

      It loads faster in my ps4 browser than on my pc odly enough, its a mystery to me as to why.

    • highwind

      uBlock Origin => problem solved

      • orionburn

        Be careful what you say about things like that. I got banned from BOLS in a previous life for saying something similar.

    • EnTyme

      Right? I understand the vast majority of your income is going to be ad revenue, but have some standards!

  • Majere613

    For further clarification, look at the Noise Marines’ ability to shoot when they die. According to the Chaos FAQ, if several die at once they can all choose to throw a grenade because each is actually shooting separately, which would fit with individual last-gasp Salamanders doing the same.

    • euansmith

      I was watching a Battle Report video recently featuring the Noise Marines, and their death-throes (or should that be Death-throws in the case of grenades) were hideously punitive.

  • Lyca Atteneder

    Yeah well… it’s true. Even if it is a little ridiculous imho. My question would be: was THAT really intentional?

    • Drew

      If the Noise Marines FAQ response (which says yes, each can throw a grenade as it dies because it’s a separate shooting attack) is any indication, then yes, it was.

      • Lyca Atteneder

        no problem with them throwing grenades when they die… but everyone getting the rerolls… seems a little odd (even though its also true to the rules)

  • Fergie0044

    Eeesh. I don’t disagree with your reading of the rules but that seems way too powerful to me. Maybe a change is needed to add “during your turn” to the end of the chapter tactic to prevent this?

    • Admiral Raptor

      That seems like a very reasonable solution.

  • Nyyppä

    Not bothering with reading the answers in the article. 2 models go down, the shoot as a unit, regular rerolls apply as if it was a 2 model unit.

    Yes, Salamanders are broken.

    Ffs, stop making these intentiomally convoluted interpretations.

    • NNextremNN

      Read before you disagree. The rulebook says each attack in handled separately but allows you to resolve them together. They still die one after another and not at the same time.

      • Nyyppä

        One shooting attack kills 2 models. They die at the same time.

        If you want to argue timing then you might want to think whether or not they are removed from the original unit before they shoot or after. That actually matters.

        • NNextremNN

          The rules say:

          “Fast Dice Rolling
          The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. … Your
          opponent can then allocate
          the wounds one at a time,
          making the saving throws
          and suffering damage
          each time as appropriate.”

          So one attack with 2 hits killing two models yeah okay than we can say both die at the same time. 2 attacks with 1 hit each killing each 1 target do not make two kills at the same time.

          But yeah I’m also sure they did not intend for this to be used together with the Salamanders CT

          • Nyyppä

            True, but unrelated really. The model stops being a part of the unit when it is removed. The shooting happens before the model is removed. Because of this the reroll pool is still a total 1+1 fot the squad for that phase no matter how many separate times the casualties are removed from it.

  • James Regan

    I suspect this may be FAQ’d in future, but as is, each attack would get the re-roll. Bearing in mind that GW can simply ‘word of god’ the answer to whichever one they want if an FAQ comes out (even ‘only per shooting/fight phase’), but untill then, rules as written are each one gets a re-roll.

  • orionburn

    “Clearly a powerful ability once your really understand it.”

    Translation: it’s going to get nerfed by the end of the month. Yeah, it’s a RAW thing, but you can’t honestly believe the intent was there for it to be used like that.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      Who knows chapter tactics are unbalanced as all hell anny way

      • orionburn

        I don’t think it’s the tactics themselves that are the issue (we can argue all day long about why one chapter’s is better than another) but how they work with other buffs. The Salamander tactic does seem to be broken or at least not thought all the way through.

        • Koen Diepen Van

          Well competitively they are a issue in that some are just clearly better then others . While costing nothing. But they might not b e that big of a issue yet. Since the marines list is flexible and you could have a couple of styles of armyes . But they seem to be planning to do this for all the armies now . Consider how much of a issue it would be for a verry narrowly defined army like Tau or orks .

        • highwind

          It isnt broken…

          it is good if you built your army around it (=spread out MSU style with few to none captains/lieutenants and high power single shot weapons)

          and guess what, that goes for virtually every other chapter tactic aswell…
          – raven guard chapter tactics is good when you build around long range firepower and cheap blocking units that deny getting closer than 12″
          – ultramarines chapter tactics is good when you cluster-f*ck many units with high volume shooting around guilliman
          – black templar chapter tactics is good when you build around mechanized and/or deep strinking assaults
          – white scars chapter tactics is good when you build around (veteran-)bikes and inceptors

          • Muninwing

            Iron Hands chapter tactics are good when…

            oh.

            actually, theirs is my favorite. it’s not too powerful that i feel cheezy for playing it, it’s useful all the time, and it’s pretty much the exact same rule they’ve had for over a decade (3rd ed IH had bionics in every squad, which was an ignored non-power/2xT wound on a 6).

            and with Dreads feeling less squishy in 8th, i’m looking forward to fielding my Iron Hands as soon as i can start playing again.

    • Drew

      According to the Chaos FAQ, the intent was there for Noise Marines to be able to use a very similar ability in exactly this way (where they can each throw a grenade even though only one model in a unit can do so in the shooting phase), so I’d say yes, there probably was intent for this to work as it does.

    • highwind

      It rather means:
      “Clearly a powerful ability once your make up rule interactions that simply do not exist”

  • Heinz Fiction

    so when you retaliate in the enemy shooting phase you get 1 reroll for each model because attacks are resolved sequentially. And in your own shooting phase you get just one reroll in total because attacks are resolved sequentially? Makes perfect sense 😉

  • highwind

    Are you really still too stupid to understand a simple rule with a simple and totally clear written condition?

    The salamander rule clearly says “each time the UNIT shoots or fights”

    So, the most easy question to check if this condition is met goes like:
    does the unit shoot or fight when you pass an ancient roll for a dying member of that unit?
    And the oh so obvious answer to that question is:
    NO, it doesnt!
    Instead the MODEL (which just died) is allowed to shoot or fight! The MODEL is not the UNIT!

    It has nothing to do with your “pseudo-creativ-rule-laywering” with shooting rules or whatelse… it is a simple condition (UNIT) which just is not met when the astrates banner triggers!

    • NNextremNN

      Insulting others won’t make your opinion more true.

      And the rule says “… shoot … as if it were the Shooting phase … single attack as if it were the Fight phase.”

      If you want to, argue about if this is a new Shooting/Fight phase or a continuation of the previous one.

      • highwind

        So?
        A MODEL shooting as if it were in the shooting phase / fighting as if it were in the fight phase is still a MODEL, not a UNIT!

        If you insinst on that “shoot as if it were in the shooting phase” includes using what is written under “1. choose unit to shoot” then the model affected by the banner could not shoot at all, because it still isnt a unit and therefore cannot be picked!
        Or you might just use your brain to understand the obvious: the rule of the banner already picked who is egliable to shot and that you therefore simply skip this step…

        Whatever you pick is your choice but neither does magically transform a MODEL into a UNIT to benefit from the chapter tactics rule!

        • memitchell

          Man, if you can get this incensed over a silly game, I want your life. Yesterday, I had to quit my ONE chance during the week to play a game, to take my son to the ER because of dizzy spells. He’s OK, ear infection. Try a little perspective.

  • phobosftw

    Love to mention this again but; Must have been hilarious for players with no codex playing against someone using the salamanders tactics during the conor campaign Honestly, I think I`d rage quit after the first round.. XD

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      It’s not that bad, man. Just kill their dudes. Apply your markerlights, drop your tyrannocites, waaagh your bikers, and roll dice.

  • highwind

    Guilliman is still mightily impressed with Salamanders rerolling ONE hit and ONE wound each time while his smurfs reroll EVERY hit and EVERY wound as well as being able to retreat and still shoot…

    But jeah, Salamanders CT is soooooo OP…
    /facepalm

    • NNextremNN

      Except that the Salamanders don’t need to be in 6″ around a 360 point LoW.

      • highwind

        But around a 100 point ancient, which doesnt bring anything to the table besides a very mediocre rule which only affects models which also only affects models within 6″ where Guilliman (who is considered as one of the best units in the whole current game) atleast buffs the whole unit when there is one guy withing 6″

        • NNextremNN

          They don’t need a 100 point ancient (not the minimal point cost but who cares) to get their CT rerolls they get that for free. The Ancient is just there for some cheesy rule arguments. It’s also easier to fit a ancient into a list than a LoW.

          • highwind

            What exactly is your argument?

            The author of this “article” is on some kind of “Salamanders CT is OMG-DAFUQ-JEZUZCHRIST-BODERLINE-OP!!!”-trip because he made up some pseudo interaction with the Ancient.
            And that is just bollocks because:
            a) RAW it doesnt work
            b) the CT itself is nice but is nothing you couldnt more or less easily get from other sources aswell
            c) the CT partly overwrites captain/chaptermaster/lieutenant buff bubbles which means that either is atleast partly wasted
            d) the CT goes for Space Marine infantry, bikes and dreadnought… no of which are currently known to be especially good this edition

            Btw. “fitting” an Ancient in a list needs atleast 1 HQ and 2 other Elite choices… fitting a LOW just needs the LOW

  • Slackermagee

    The banner references models, not units and skips the “select a unit” step to kick off the process. Those two abilities do not synergize.. Firing as if in the shooting phase is to prevent one from firing on characters, out of combat, etc.

    The chapter tactic is still bonkers good as is though.

  • Josh Felstead

    I can’t wait for this to be FAQ’d and GW to tell you that you’re talking absolute sh*t with ‘answer D’ and therefore your entire interpretation of rules interactions.

    THE REAL DEBATE:
    “Does the chapter tactic trigger only in the actual shooting/fight phase (since they are the ONLY times when the WHOLE UNIT shoots or fights), or does this also include ONE MODEL when they are killed (no matter how many are killed)?”

    YOUR STUPID NONSENSE ‘DEBATE’ (read: complete misinterpretation of how rules work):
    “I wonder how I can somehow justify treating each killed model as a separate unit so I can use re-rolls for all of them, despite the fact they were just killed at the same time…”

    To clarify this – no, you’re wrong, ‘answer D’ should not even have been a consideration. The only thing that needs addressing is whether or not the chapter tactic is triggered when models die (since it would not be the whole unit shooting or fighting). Of-bloody-course they don’t get individual re-rolls if more than 1 model is killed in an enemy action. Idiot.

    • NNextremNN

      I think the article is correct and the fact that you try to insult him won’t strengthen your point.

      • Josh Felstead

        Yes, I did go a bit overboard on the insulting nature of my post, but this kind of thing lumps him in with the TFGs in my eyes. I don’t think for a second that this is how the rule is intended to be used and even past intentions, I don’t think the writing actually allows it either. Iffy on whether it triggers when models are killed, yes, but I don’t think it could ever allow, say, 3 models to each use re-rolls if they are all killed in an enemy shooting or fight phase.

        • NNextremNN

          I think it’s funny in this http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/07/40k-ranking-chapter-tactics.html article it’s ranked 5 of 7 and suddenly it’s the best.

          I also doubt it’s intended to be used that way but their interpretation seems correct to me. I just wish GW would think a little more about their rules and not try to write them with the least possible word count. I think a few more words could improve a lot of rules.

          • Josh Felstead

            Ha! That is funny.

            I’m sure GW will come out with a FAQ to address this soon after it starts causing all the problems that it will. It could in fact turn out that this is genuinely how the rule is supposed to be used, and then GW will have to change their entire poster-boy roster to Salamanders instead of Ultramarines.

      • highwind

        well, i think people who are trying to invent things / lie for their own advantage deserve an insult

        also, applying simple logic in terms of “condition met? yes/no!” is not really a point, it is, well simple logic…

    • Admiral Raptor

      Looking at the RAW it seems more likely that “D” is the answer. It doesn’t seem to matter if the whole squad is involved or not. Now whether or not this rule interaction was what GW intended is up for debate. Personally I think the chapter tactic was powerful enough before these shenanigans, but I wouldn’t begrudge an opponent for using this combo.

      • Josh Felstead

        I may have been a bit OTT on my condemnation of his article, but people exploiting silly rules confusions infuriates me. I would absolutely have a problem with someone trying to do this and wouldn’t try to pull this myself because it seems like such a blatant misinterpretation of how it works.

      • highwind

        no, it doesnt… “D” is some talk about what happens and how it happens and then inventing some RAI instead of quoting a rule while still ignoring that a model (which is affected by the banner) isnt a unit (which is affected by the CT)

  • Admiral Raptor

    It’s a bizarre rule interaction to be sure, but the only thing that bothers me about it is how much all those re-rolls will slow down the game. I really don’t think the rules writers anticipated how these two rules would work together.

  • Doug Crawford

    Talk about cherry picker the line is “when a unit” not “when a individual in a unit” a play should be given the right to slap there opponent if they try this crap.

  • Jared McWilliams

    Salamander chapter tactical references unit shooting or fighting. The ability for a model to strike one last time from the ancient banner is not the unit striking, so raw they can’t use the chapter tactic

    • highwind

      ssshhhhhttt, the author is just refusing to understand this very simple logic for days know and rather trying to invent some creative rules bending…

      just leave him, you probably wont ever play vs him anyways, so he might just go on with his brabble 😉

    • mgdavey

      If a single model in a unit attacks, then the unit attacks. Let say a unit piles in and only one model gets in melee range, do rules that apply to the unit not apply to the attacking model?

      • Jared McWilliams

        If an unit of five models suffers a wound, the wound does 1 damage and removes a model as a casualty. The banner is nearby and that model makes it’s 4+ roll to shoot or fight.

        That model shoots or fights, not the unit.

        If it were the unit shooting or fight in then every model would be eligible to shoot or fight in the unit, not just that model.

        Generally an unit is chosen to do something, and any model which are eligible in the unit can do that something.

        Specifically for the banner a single model that is removed as a casualty from an unit gets to do something, but the unit itself does not have permission- just that model.

        Specifically the salamanders chapter tactical calls out the unit doing something.

        RAW the banner is an effect to a model, not an unit.

        • mgdavey

          If the rule said “every time the unit shoots, it gets to re-roll all ones”, I don’t think there would be any controversy. If a buff gave the unit a +1 to hit, would you say that it didn’t apply here because only one model in the unit is firing? Imagine a power that singled out a single model in a unit and dished out a savable wound: the model would still get any armor save buffs that were applied to its unit, even though the attack was just on the model. IHMO

  • Homeskillet

    Sticking to strict rules-lawyering, you may be correct on this interpretation. However, I think it is an obvious oversight by GW and if someone pulled that I’d call that out as being a dick move. I think the intent was for them to have one model per phase get the re-roll.

  • Kayreios

    3 new codex drop, and this is all we have to read?

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Non issue “conundrums” like this really do beggar belief….

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Non issue “conundrums” like this really do beggar belief….

    Not sure why people are getting hung up on the separation of the term unit/model. The Ancient rule has to use the phrasing “model” to make it clear that it is the specific model is the one that gets to shoot/fight again before they are removed, and NOT that you can use a different model to shoot back e.g. one with a better weapon.

    As it stands yes every model killed would get to use the Chapter Tactic. Whether if that was what was intended by the rules writers is another issue – which no doubt will get solved in short order.

  • Drpx

    And then the judge rules against you and all that’s wasted.

  • David Smith

    I have real trouble with this interpretation.
    A model in a unit is not itself a unit.
    Supporting the reroll mechanic using the “as if it were the X phase” is a deliberate misreading. The banner ability does not trigger a new phase, it just allows a model to behave as if it were in that phase.
    Only one model is acting, not its unit.
    Given that the chapter tactic affects units rather than models, it seems pretty clear to me that it doesn’t trigger with the banner.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      By that logic then a Single salamander character would not be able to benefit from the chapter tactic rule when under the influence of a Ancient. A character is ostensively a unit of one model by itself. Yet by the Ancient wording only a model. So what you’re implying is that when the character is killed they suddenly are only a “model” and not a “unit” – which is silly.

      • David Smith

        A unit may consist of one model.
        I’m not arguing that.
        I might argue that the banner effect would not allow a model, which is a unit of one, to get the rerolls, but I suspect that it would only because in that case the model is the unit, and vice versa.
        If you have two or more models, then if one is acting “as if” the unit cannot really be said to be acting.

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Can’t have it both ways, with characters being some magical exception to that logic. Remember a fundamental principle of 8th is that every units is treated the same in every phase. So everything moves, shoots, fights and takes damage in the same way – down from a single character to titan.

          • David Smith

            For me, it boils down to this:
            The chapter tactic affects Units.
            The banner ability affects Models.
            In order for both to apply, both things must be affected.
            When a unit acts, the models which make it up take actions in turn.
            The question is then, if a model acts is its unit also acting?
            I would say no.

            I understand where you’re coming from, but something doing something out of turn doesn’t equate to replaying the turn.

            I don’t get in enough games at the moment for this to come up for me, so it’s academic to me. I’ll just wait for a FAQ to see if I’m wrong or not.

            Agree to disagree?

          • I_am_Alpharius

            For sure we’ll have to agree to disagree at this juncture. Personally, the rule as it stands, I feel, falls to each dead model would benefit from the Chapter Tactic. As I said above, I feel people are reading too much into the use of the phrasing model in the Ancient rule. Additionally, you strictly amour save are rolled one at time – even though most people would usually roll several at once for a multi-model unit, to speed up the game. I think the rule is clear – however I can see where other unsurety comes from; evidently I sure this will get clarity from GW via an FAQ.

  • MikeyP

    Wait hold on… Where does it say when a model shoots, that the unit is considered shooting??? Sure, during the shooting phase, when a unit shoots, then the models inside shoot… but that does not imply the reverse. Show me where it says that when a model shoots outside the shooting phase that the unit is also declared as shooting. Show me that, and D is correct. Otherwise, this article is just plain wrong.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      By that logic then a Single salamander character would not be able to benefit from the chapter tactic rule when under the influence of a Ancient. A character is ostensively a unit of one model by itself. Yet by the Ancient wording only a model. So what you’re implying is that when the character is killed they suddenly are only a “model” and not a “unit” – which is silly

      • MikeyP

        Actually the opposite. When a model and a unit are the same (i.e. a one model unit), then by definition, whenever the model shoots the unit is also shooting. This is only true, however, in the situation where it is a one model unit. In this one specific case, you would get re-rolls for your one slain model.

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Can’t have it both ways, with characters being some magical exception to that logic. Remember a fundamental principle of 8th is that every units is treated the same in every phase. So everything moves, shoots, fights and takes damage in the same way – down from a single character to titan.

          • MikeyP

            No magical logic, and its not having it both ways. The model in a one model unit represents the entire unit. A model in a 2+ model unit does not represent the entire unit. I don’t think that is complicated. In fact, when allocating wounds against your unit in the opponents shooting phase, you allocate to models individually, not the entire unit… unless of course your unit is a single model… then you are allocating to the entire unit and to a single model, because they are one in the same.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            That’s still trying to have it both ways. The Ancient rule has to use the phrasing “model” to make it clear that it is the specific model is the one that gets to shoot/fight again before they are removed, and NOT that you can use a different model to shoot back e.g. one with a better weapon. It not alluding to anything more.

          • MikeyP

            I agree completely! And if the ancient rule’s last sentence read something like “…that UNIT may immediately shoot with the restriction that only the model slain may make one shooting attack with one of its weapons…” then I’d agree with the conclusion of this article. Instead, the ancient rule makes no mention of units in any regard… Additionally, nowhere else in the rules does a model shooting mean the unit is also shooting without explicitly saying so (such as in the shooting phase).

            To me, the confusion seems to be when something affects a model, whether it affects the entire unit as well. Some effects explicitly say it works on ALL models in a unit (like most psychic powers and stratagems). The ancient rule does not say this explicitly, so I’m not sure why we assume it also affects the entire unit (i.e. the unit shoots back with one model, not just the model shoots back independently).

            P.S. Thanks for the discussion! Its nice having an intelligent, mature, debate on rule interpretation. So many of these comments-section back-and-forths devolve into something ugly.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            You’re welcome and ditto!

            We’ll probably have to agree to disagree at this juncture. Personally, the rule as it stands, I feel, falls to each dead model would benefit from the Chapter Tactic. As I said above, I feel people are reading too much into the use of the phrasing model in the Ancient rule. Additionally, you strictly amour save are rolled one at time – even though most people would usually roll several at once for a multi-model unit, to speed up the game. I think the rule is clear – however I can see where other unsurety comes from; evidently I sure this will get clarity from GW via an FAQ.

    • mgdavey

      If a special rule or power or strategem gives a power to a unit, it gives it to all models in the unit. Let’s say it gave them a +1 to the unit’s save. Would you say that since the save is only being taken on the model, then the rule doesn’t apply? If a rule gives a unit a re-roll, then any model can use the re-roll.

      • MikeyP

        Most rules or powers give ALL models in a unit something (like your example of +1 save). If the power in your example instead said something like “A single model in a unit gets a +1 save,” then its would only work on one model. The Salamander’s rule doesn’t give ALL models the re-roll; It gives a single re-roll (to hit and wound) to a single model.

        • mgdavey

          The Salamander rule specifies that it’s a one dice re-roll to the UNIT, not a single model every time it fights. Every time the rule is used, a different model can take advantage of it.

  • Manuel Roemisch

    if there is going to be a spike in players abusing this they will FAQ them as fast and hard as they deeserve

  • Simon Chatterley

    The goods news here is that this is easy for GW to fix. They seem to like this retrospective style of rules management at the moment and whenever someone finds the loophole they are pretty decent at shutting it down.

    It is a soect

  • Richard Mitchell

    This is why I like clear rules as written. Knowing the rules of a game should never be an exercise in literary analysis. That the author of this article puts forward a convincing argument.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      I think there is an element of emotion that ever model killed benefiting from the Chapter Tactic rule is somehow overpowered – when if you really consider it its not. Also note that its only models within 6″ – you’d never be able to fit a whole unit in!

      I won’t repeat my interpretation as you can read that above (below?) in the chat

  • YetAnotherFacelessMan

    I’m still not seeing how this is really any more terrifying than a regular squad of marines around an ancient. The ability to shoot on death is not unique to salamanders, and the rerolls are only so helpful.

    If you pack a bunch of space marines on foot around an ancient, you’ve got a bunch of space marines on foot, moving slowly. Your opponent would just have to move his guys outside 12″ (or 24″ if he can) and then shoot them dead. Most marine units can’t strike back from that range, ancient or no.

    If you use veterans, to take full advantage of the special weapons they can get, then you’re losing your veterans to make those beefed-up shots, and your ancient will soon be alone.

    If you’re using powerful models with a bunch of shooting, like centurions, then they aren’t dying as often, so it’s kind of like running regular centurions.

    I’m not seeing the issue. It’s marines. There aren’t many of them. Also, if you kill them in close combat, as per the Noise Marine FAQ, they can only fire a bolt pistol. I’m not exactly terrified.

    EDIT: I guess what I’m really getting at is “If it makes your friend happy that his guys die gloriously, then maybe just be happy he’s happy as you’re slaughtering his little plastic dudes.”

  • SacTownBrian

    This is why we can’t have nice things…

  • Muninwing

    this is getting FAQed pretty fast… it’s a huge instance of RAW vs RAI

  • Darubah

    That right there is a perfect example of why 40k is absolut filth.