40K: The Unbeatable List: BAO 2017

Congratulations to the Brandon Grant – the Repeat Champion at BAO 2017!

list via TasteyTaste at Blood of Kittens

Brandon Grant 1st Overall BAO 2017

Faction: Astra Militarum Command Points: 10 Points: 2000

Battalion Detachment

  • HQ: Commissar Yarrick (Warlord) = 130
  • HQ: Company Commander with Shotgun, Chain sword, Frag Grenades = 30
  • HQ: Company Commander with Shotgun, Chain sword, Frag Grenades = 30
  • Elite: Commissar with Bolt Pistol, Chain sword = 31
  • Troops: 30 Conscripts = 90
  • Troops: 30 Conscripts = 90
  • Troops: 30 Conscripts = 90
  • Troops: 30 Conscripts = 90
  • Heavy Support: Heavy Weapons Team with Mortar, Lasguns, Frag Grenades = 27
  • Heavy Support: Heavy Weapons Team with Mortar, Lasguns, Frag Grenades = 27

Battalion Detachment

  • HQ: Tempestor Prime with Command Rod, Chain sword, Frag, Krak Grenades = 40
  • HQ: Tempestor Prime with Command Rod, Chain sword, Frag, Krak Grenades = 40
  • HQ: Tempestor Prime with Command Rod, Chain sword, Frag, Krak Grenades = 40
  • Troops: 5 Scions with 2 Hot-shot Lasguns, 1 Plasma Pistol, 2 Plasma Guns, Frag, Krak Grenades = 64
  • Troops: 5 Scions with 2 Hot-shot Lasguns, 1 Plasma Pistol, 2 Plasma Guns, Frag, Krak Grenades = 64
  • Troops: 5 Scions with 2 Hot-shot Lasguns, 1 Plasma Pistol, 2 Plasma Guns, Frag, Krak Grenades = 64
  • Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime with Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter = 98
  • Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime with Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter = 98
  • Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime with Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter = 98

Spearhead Detachment

  • HQ: Primaris Psyker with Epistolary, Force Stave = 4
  • Elite: Astropath with Laspistol = 15
  • Elite: Astropath with Laspistol = 15
  • Heavy Support: Basilisk with Earth shaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter = 110
  • Heavy Support: Basilisk with Earth shaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter = 108
  • Heavy Support: Earth shaker Carriage with 4 Crew with Lasguns, Frag Grenades = 91
  • Heavy Support: Earth shaker Carriage with 4 Crew with Lasguns, Frag Grenades = 91
  • Heavy Support: Earth shaker Carriage with 4 Crew with Lasguns, Frag Grenades = 91

Goatboy’s Breakdown:

This list is basically a ton of bodies (Consripts) mixed with guns (see: Heavy Support, Mortars) that don’t need line of sight to fire.  Combine that with the re-rolls from Yarrick, and it’s a pretty tanky brick. On top of that the Tempestors are great objective grabbers/speedbumps and the Taurox Prime is a bullet hose. This army can always shoot, block movement, and score objectives. Dealing with 120 conscripts is a problem already – mix in all the OTHER shooting back (see: Orders) and you can see why this lists works so well in a tournament format.

So again, congratulations to Repeat BAO Champion Brandon Grant – going 6-0 at BAO is no easy feat, but doing it two years in a row, with two different armies in two different editions? That’s more than just brining a tough list, folks.

You can also view the Top Five Army Lists over at BoK – thanks to TasteyTaste for consolidating all the lists. There was another list that went 6-0 but lost out to points. Guess what faction it was…

 

What do you think of this Unbeatable List from BAO 2017?

  • Zingbaby

    No thanks.

    • Other than it winning a tournament, I don’t see anything that someone would find particularly objectionable with this list (other than the time and expense to paint 120 conscripts).

      • Zingbaby

        Fluffy or not, mega spamming the well known most efficient unit in the game is still pretty obnoxious.

        • kingcobra668

          Get over it?

          • Zingbaby

            No need, it’ll be fixed very likely.

          • ZeeLobby

            Totally agree.

          • Jory4001

            Conscripts are only a problem if spammed. Limiting how many squads you can take in a similar manner of Command squads to officers is the way to go. I play guard, and my 20 conscript squad (I only use 1 squad) with 80 shots (FrFSrF) averages a single wound after hit/wound/save rolls and they die en-mass even with a commissar there.

            I also run 4-6 infantry units and people seem to have a lot more trouble with them than my conscripts, usually because they can actually hurt when hitting back.

          • Charon

            It is not about “hurting something” that is what the scions are for. It is about sitting on objectives. You are forced to shoot them in order to claim the objective as they outnumber most units.
            It is a bit like the 7th edition Space marine demi company. A lot of people was like “uh… this is weak you are not gonna kill anything!” The game i not about killing things. It is about scoring points. Killing things is just a tool you can use to score these points.
            In this case you bodyblock everything while your mortars and scions do the killing. Conscripts are amazing in that regard as they do not run away (commissar) get their saves against most anti infantry weapons and draw fire away from your mortars and scions by camping objectives.

          • Stealthbadger

            Maybe if each army gets a space marine objective secured type deal and they just don’t give it to conscripts that would fix the objective camping issue.

            I say wait for the codexes before worrying about rebalancing.

          • Charon

            Doesnt matter if you dont come close enough to the objective. These units are big enough to keep you outside the 3″ bubble.
            And even if, it doesnt change anything as you just get shot to bits by 120 lasgun shots.

          • Stealthbadger

            The issue is they hit on 5, wound mostly on 5, and then give you an armour save. Trust me, conscripts are not all that. In the hands of a good player, deadly I’m sure. But just try positioning that many models to be truly effective on a dense scenery board and you’ll see the challenge.

            Two things nobody seems to have tried in the tourney are snipers and tying these little critters up in melee. Try charging from where there is no or limited LoS and then hack them to bits. Maybe even get close to an exposed commissar as he only had two.

            Let’s say you make them 4ppm. Now I just bring inf squads which not only have better BS but also can bring better weapons and do the fall back and let oth.ers shoot thing better. To fund this maybe I drop one unit of artillery. D6 shots. Big whoop.

          • Charon

            Yeah. Im sure nobody ever tried sinpers….
            Their damage is not an issue. It is their power to stand around forever for no points.
            Brimstones are the same problem. 2ppm, a 4++. They just sit there forever.
            Killing blasts and templates basically promoted this.
            It the would have shed a single thought about the consequences of introducing area buffs and getting rid of anti-horde mechanics at the same time, this would not have happened.
            Conscripts are no isolated issue. the same is true for boyz, brimstones, Razorwing flocks (nerfed), Nids, Poxwalkers,…
            Consripts and brimstones are just the most clearly visible.

          • Stealthbadger

            Did any of the lists he went up against have snipers?

            Also, nids and boyz are on the hit list too? Shall we just remove troops entirely?

          • Charon

            Why dont you just take a look at the lists yourself?
            Nothing to do with “troops”. It is cheap troops that are immune to moral and their counter mechanic was eliminated.
            Also the armor modifiers also mean that their survivability got up by 1/3 (as most basic weapons have none).
            There is a reason why conscripts invaded basically every imperial list in the current meta.

          • Stealthbadger

            Tried to post links to various tourney results and lists which supports the point no one is bringing snipers yet and also the results are very varied across armies but obviously it got blocked…

            Have a look at ‘Sanguination of felines’. It’s quite interesting if your into the whole list thing.

          • Charon

            What do you expect snipers to do? How many of them? How much mortar fire are they gonna take? Do you think they survive round 1? What if the opponent goes first?
            What is my snipers job against serpent, Brimstone or Stormraven lists?
            in 99 out of 100 cases top tournament players are a lot smarter at playing the game and building their list than you.
            If you just think about how to hardcounter this list, you will lose against others and do not get the 6/0 you need to win.

          • Stealthbadger

            Then why isn’t this list winning every tournament?

          • Charon

            Because it hits similar lists. Stormravens did not win every single tournament either. But if they show up in a majority of lists (as conscripts currently do) it points to a broader issue with the unit or its interaction.
            Funfact: This is basically the same list that was a pain in 7th but with renegades.
            Lots of cheap fearless zombies around artillery.
            People were offended by how WAAC this was. Now as it is imperial and the zombies were replaced by fearless conscripts people are ok with it as it if fluffy 😀

          • Stealthbadger

            Wel obviously imperium always good. Didn’t you get The Memo? 🙂

            The ETC complete lists are available at the above site I cryptically referred to. 220 pages of them! Nice bed time reading if your insomniac.

            Let’s see what shakes out of this after a few more tourneys and importantly each codex. GW has already shown with the storm raven issue it is prepared to use some clever tools to remove overuse of super optimisatised lists. Dornmaybe they’ll somehow conscript units number like the old platoon model.

          • Richard Mitchell

            And I think this was the 1st tournament to include a power level limit on models too. Couldn’t be more than 31+?

          • MightyOrang

            Amen.

          • Thomson

            Any unit that is a problem if it is spammed is a problem in itself. It just means it is too cheap for its points.

            Raising the cost of conscripts to 4 pts would be harsh, 3.5 would be perfect, but that is not how points in 40k work.

            My preferred solution would be that in each conscript unit there is one drill seargant in the unit. His stats are the same, (he just can shout louder, not fight better), gets a pistol instead of a lasgun (so he has less firepower) and costs 15 points

          • Richard Mitchell

            Don’t really see a problem with this, it is really what a lot of players predicted would be one of the dominate list builds. Because of core mechanics like split fire for units, buff bubbles, and most models can’t target a character model, the big lists are going to be full on horde infantry with special weapons and character buffs, and some vehicle support. Or you do 1st turn Alpha Strike list.

            It just seems this is just the new way 40k is going to be played.

            A lot of people are starting to see issues with how the core rules, when taken in isolation are fine, but when working in concert breaking the game. So comps are already in order with GW FAQs. FAQs to manage surface issues, and community comps to mitigate core issues.

            Even with the codices coming out, I wouldn’t expect to see this issues get fixed this edition. Generals handbook will probably be just an official integration of community developed comps anyway to patch over some of the issues with the core rules until 9th comes out.

            That is assuming that the core rules are not just forcing players to play the game as intended rather than as they are used to.

        • 4 units of Conscripts and 2 Commissars is hardly mega spamming. There a troop choice. The only thing he spammed were 5 Earthshaker platforms, which is funny, because taking 3 for one slot is encouraged through Squadrons. He could have taken 9 in one battalion.

          • Zingbaby

            120 conscripts c’mon now, you don’t see Nid lists that many guants on average.

            He doesn’t have any actual guardsmen in an “IG” army.

    • Josh Felstead

      Did you play in the BAO?

      …Didn’t think so.

      Leave the man to his victory then – the guy certainly knows how to win.

      • Zingbaby

        Uhh no I play weekends with friends like normal people.

        If this “man” wants to ‘win at toys’ he’s welcome to it, if you think I’m somehow preventing him you’re not too bright.

        Still I’d say if you go to extremes to, win at toys, you probably are kind of a loser at life.

        • Josh Felstead

          Oh the irony of your comment about not being too bright… I said “leave the man to his victory”, not “let him win” or “stop preventing him from winning”. To put this in simpler terms for you so that you might be able to grasp the basics, what I said means “quit whining like a little b*tch because a guy won by combining a strong list with good tactics”.

          As for your final comment, I’m sure going to extremes to win tournaments doesn’t make them even half as much of a loser as someone who belittles the success of others.

          • Zingbaby

            Oh what’s best about your bs diatribe, is that I wasn’t whining at all, I said “no thanks” and you jumped to wild and incredibly stupid conclusions. My comment was less to his “success” at ‘winning at toys’ and more to your ridiculous response based on assumption and no context.

            But again, if you think taking advantage of exploits and broken rules to, win at toys, equals success I’d say you probably are a loser at life. Fortunately for the rest of us GW agrees and has made it clear they are taking steps to remedy this, so whining like a little b*tch isn’t even necessary.

          • Josh Felstead

            “Fluffy or not, mega spamming the well known most efficient unit in the game is still pretty obnoxious.” – that’s pretty whiney.

            “Despite what a few WAACturds say here, the vast majority of gamers don’t want op and broken combos or spam lists anymore” – the use of “WAACturds”..? C’mon Whiney McWhineface.

            “He doesn’t have any actual guardsmen in an “IG” army.” – that’s also pretty whiney.

            If you’re pooing your pants about people finding strong combinations that are unbalanced, GW has already shown that they’re using tournaments as indicators of what should be changed, such as ‘Ravenspam’ being balanced out. So all your whining’s not really relevant is it?

            You say “win at toys” as if you find the hobby silly and a waste of time, which unfortunately undermines your argument seeing as you yourself take part in it. So why the hate?

            As an aside… Is your name Tom, ‘Zingbaby’?
            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c8d4aba1b41aa36c7e8302fb1b16114c2f29c37c264775d004fee758c3d0d35d.jpg

          • Zingbaby

            “Oh the irony of your comment” calling me the Internet tough guy haha, wow, did you read the crap you just wrote?

            There’s nothing whiny about any of that, it’s a fact, he has no guardsmen in an IG list. Want to see whiny, read your last post, this all seems to be very much a hot button issue for you.

            I don’t hate the hobby at all, never implied any such thing, more dumb assumption from you here. Like the bulk of 40kers, who love the hobby, I don’t like to see it ruined by broken combos and exploits, but as you said, GW seems to be on top of this for once, because regardless of how offensive it is to you personally, people don’t want that.

            You really optimize the Internet tough guy in your last rant, quite hilarious.

          • Josh Felstead

            So we’re in agreement that your whining is invalid due to GW being on top of balancing issues? Good.

            I do wish to correct you on something else you’ve been saying in the comments, though, and that is your use of “IG”. This isn’t an Imperial Guard list, this is an Astra Militarum list (notice the name change to be more encompassing of all facets of the Imperium’s military forces) and as such does not suggest that Guardsmen HAVE to be used as choices.

            To give you a simple example, the equivalent would be using Scouts instead of Tactical Marines for a Space Marine army. Are Tactical Marines and Guardsmen the poster boys of their respective armies? Yes. Do they absolutely have to be included to make a fluffy and legal list? No they don’t.

          • Zingbaby

            Well internet tough guy, all scout marine lists are still not exactly fluffy. Nor did I ever imply I have an issue with non fluffy lists, more dumb assumption. But if you try to tell me a non fluffy list is fluffy, I might disagree. Nor did I ever imply that any of these lists are illegal, more dumb assumption.

            The issue with conscripts has nothing to do with their “proper level of fluffiness” but the fact that they’re currently a broken exploit for power gaming to win at toys. Simultaneously if you’re making the claim that an “AM” list is fluffy without any actual guardsmen I will disagree.

  • memitchell

    That’s $300 in Earthshaker Carriages, alone! That’s a pricey dang army! And, this very tournament winning list is probably why Conscripts are the new pitchfork and torches crowd “Must be nerfed!” unit on the 40K sites.

    • orionburn

      Which is going to be the response to any army that wins a tournament over the course of the next year.

      I think the list is fluffy. My only gripe is that 8th brought back so many re-roll abilities from 7th. Lot of those needed to be left behind.

    • Exactly how they go about nerfing Conscripts that are only 1 point per model cheaper than basic infantry will be interesting.

      • threeorangewhips

        One of two ways really:
        1. Orders don’t affect conscripts
        2. Commissars don’t affect conscripts

        • PrimoFederalist

          Orders not affecting make more sense: commissars are ideal for conscripts.

          • Randy Randalman

            Commissars shouldn’t affect them. The only hope some armies have is by doing so much damage that Ld fails sends a unit home. AM just goes, “Nope. Lose one model. You have 90 more to get through my screen.”

            Conscripts should be cheap chaff with no buffs from orders, no buffs from Commissars, and the max squad size should be 20. Right now, Conscripts and Brimstone Horrors are keeping close combat armies from being truly S-tier because they are too cost efficient AND backed by the best firepower in the game.

          • Neil Burns

            I disagree on size, the point of a conscripted mob of civilians is literally to be a mob of just numbers. However, orders shouldn’t affect them.

          • Bakvrad

            They are soldiers non the less. They take orders and they are afraid of getting shot by a commissar. These are their first lessons, before they learn to attach the bayonet to their lasgun 😀 (probably ^^)
            Make them depended on guard units like they used to be.

          • georgelabour

            In some of the fluff the only lessons they receive are how to fire their gun, go forward, and not to upset the commissar.

            Even reloading is often skipped over as it’s not expected of them.

            For reference see Hellsreach. 🙂

          • Zingbaby

            They’re not really soldiers though, just conscripted civilians who’ve been given rifles and shoved into war.

          • Bakvrad

            Everything you said describes a soldier. All they are missing, is a proper training – reflected in their poor skills to hit.
            When you join an army you are a soldier at that moment. including chain of order and severe punishment if you don’t obey

        • Spacefrisian

          Bring flamers and snipers.

      • Frank O’Donnell

        Make them at least take half the effect of the moral instead of just losing one model if they have a Commissar, the conscripts don’t need to be nerfed the commissar rules do.

      • pokemastercube .

        well previously they were part of the platoon system in the guard book, so to take a squad you have to take the core of the platoon first (1 command, 2 infantry. and the conscripts were 0-1 for each platoon)

        • As I’ve said in other posts. You could blob those 2 (and up to 5) infantry squads. If you think that 30 Conscripts hitting on 5s is bad, try 50 Guardsmen getting the same buffs and hitting on 4s.

    • Drpx

      Make troops no longer count for sudden death, do it GW before this meta infects my game store!

  • Julien Huguenin

    Wow, a fluffy army winning a tournament.

    • Bigwebb

      fluffy????? I dont see it

      • Seriously? What do you find unfluffy? Infantry supported by Artillery? Commissars and Conscripts?

        • Zingbaby

          No actual guardsmen in an “IG” army…

          • Conscripts are Guardsmen. They are literally the same model. If you want to limit IG’s troop choices to one you need to do that to everyone. Any opponent is free to tell me they won’t play me because they don’t feel my list is fluffy enough. However, we’re not talking about flyer spam, we’re talking about Troop Choices. So if someone wants to be that guy he can play someone else and good riddance.

          • Zingbaby

            They’re not though man. I mean they are both non enhanced humans with lasguns, which is why you can use the same model, but conscripts are not guardsmen. They are civilians given some basic gear and forced to fight in times of desperate need.

          • I understand not wanting to play against someone being too competitive, but there’s a fine line between avoiding WAAC nonsense and list building for your opponent to suit your taste. IMO, this is over that line. I have to take 6 troop choices minimum to run 2 battalions. Someone telling me that I have to split those up to their liking is a deal breaker. If you want to argue that that many conscripts is too strong for a casual game, I can understand that argument. Demanding that I take certain units to fit your fluff standards I can’t get behind.

          • Zingbaby

            Let’s just call a spade a spade, if you want to play non fluffy lists I don’t even care, but people are not spamming conscripts for fluff reasons, they’re doing it because spammed conscripts are one the best units in the game.

            They’re a cheap exploit because this index “so you can use all your toys” is just a stop gap solution, in the actual AM platoons you HAD to take actual guardsmen and were limited to 0-1 unit of conscripts.

          • You could also blob your squads together last edition, which would be a worse balance issue than Conscripts. It’s not that 3 point conscripts are better than 4 point guardsmen , it’s that they can be taken in large enough groups to make the orders really hurt. The stat increase would be worth the extra point and you could take 50 guardsmen in that blob.
            My basic problem is that I don’t feel I should have to justify my list to an opponent when I have 3 choices to fill up my troops slots and I choose one of those choices for 4 out of 6 required choices. I’d feel the same way about somebody demanding that a SM player run a certain number of Tacticals squads, which I assume you also do. Same with Fire Warriors, Chaos Space Marines, Boyz, or whichever one of the Nid gribblies you decide is most fluffy. I see this as fundamentally different to flyer spam or most of the other tournament player shenanigans. Troop choices are supposed to be taken in larger numbers than most units. That’s why they are Troop choices.

          • Zingbaby

            You can take whatever you want, though likely once an actual IG codex comes conscripts will go back to 0-1.

            But if you’re spamming the best unit in the game, and simultaneously telling me it’s for fluff reasons, you’re the kinda guy I wouldn’t play.

          • 0-1 per platoon.

            I think it’s a wee bit early to declare Conscripts the best unit in the game.

            Due to my self imposed rule that Conscripts have bayonets mounted, I would not personally run more than 40 Conscripts (as that’s all I have). That being said, a large part of the 40k crowd act like junior high kids when it comes to branding people WAAC players. If I think someone is the type of person to make that accusation just because they don’t like my list than that’s the type of guy I wouldn’t play, just like I wouldn’t play the person that is running 5 Storm Ravens. The worst thing about this game continues to be the players.

          • Zingbaby

            Per platoon sure, so at least 2 units of actual guardsmen in each platoon as well, plus command and heavy weapon teams, veterans etc.

            If you’re taking some units of conscripts cuz they’re good, I have no issue, nobody should really. If you’re spamming 120 conscripts to power game, well if I’m prepared ok, still my least preferred way to play 40k… but if you’re spamming 120 conscripts and telling me it’s “fluffy”, then I know you’re a clown and I’ll find better ways to spend my time.

            I totally agree that the worst thing about 40k has always been the players.

          • Liam Lofty Loftus

            Cadian Whiteshields would like to have a word with you on that matter.

        • Josh Felstead

          I don’t think this guy realises that “Imperial Guard” have been renamed “Astra Militarum” (literally ‘soldiers of the stars’ or ‘space soldiers’ if you will) because it’s more encompassing and appropriate.

          Conscripts and Commissars are certainly a fluffy choice. Annoying to play against? Yes. But fluffy.

      • Calgar

        For imperial Guard this is about as fluffy as an infantry based list can be. Lots of cannon fodder troops, artillery, and some specialists to actually get things done (i.e. capture objectives).

        • Julien Huguenin

          Exactly. You’re only missing a few Leman to have an actual WAC list.

        • Zingbaby

          Except for the lack of any guardsmen…

      • kingcobra668

        That just means you don’t know the fluff as well as you imagine

      • petrow84

        I’d be happy to face with such spam lists.

  • drunkenvash

    And people complain about storm ravens?

    • Drpx

      GW: hmm, this list has a distinct lack of the models we’re releasing next week. SHUT IT DOWN!

      Community: Wow, they really care about balance this edition.

  • Dan Dolan

    my buddy played a list like this a month ago. Conscripts are not what needs a nerf. Commissars are what needs the nerf. Its to powerful an ability for the points and lets you ignore the units biggest weakness

    • Dan

      ^ yup. if conscripts take heavy enough casualties morale *should* be insuring that they take double damage. That’s one way they’re supposed to be balanced. Commissar’s ability to turn that into a flat 1 casualty totally throws that out the window.

    • Just a player

      How about you just recruit some snipers those commisars aren’t hard to kill really.

      • Rasheed Jones

        what about factions with no snipers?

        • Spacefrisian

          Only Chaos and Nids dont have them, with Necrons might even have the best Snipers Deepstrike and rapid fire, try hiding from those. And you can spam warriors that can return from being killed.

          • Reven

            Sisters of Battle, Orks, and Grey Knights also lack Snipers. Also some of the snipers the other factions have are pretty meh like Tau Sniper Drones and the Dark Eldar’s access to the Hexrifle is only on characters you want near or in melee. One shouldn’t be forced to splash in allies to have a chance of dealing with commissars.

          • Rabid Wombat

            Imperial Assassins are available to Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights.

          • Reven

            Which means splashing in out of faction units to make them viable, it means to survive guard you HAVE to make use of the Imperial ally shenanigans rather then just running the army of imperial faction you like. Just use Keyword Imperial and use the best units from any faction and just win through a completely unrivaled selection of units.

            Sisters and Grey Knights can use Assassins, Ratlings, Scout Marines, Skitarii Rangers, or anything else that snipes in the Imperium.

            You should be able to use your preferred faction without using out of faction units. With how it is now, if you lack the ability to kill the commissar if you run into guard your screwed, but only against guard. You don’t need snipers to fight T’au or Orks or anyone else, they can be nice but not a necessity. You should be able to overcome or compensate for a weakness rather then be forced to use allies to just remove it in the first place.

            Also in mono faction tournaments you probably won’t be able to use things like the Imperium key word to create your army and once more Sisters and Grey knights are unable to fight guardsmen again.

          • Just a player

            Imperium: Guards with sniper rifles, scouts with sniper rifles, assassins, ratlings.
            Chaos: renegade guard snipers and perhaps some new stuff in the new codex.
            Tau: Snipers
            Eldar: pathdinders and an HQ sniper
            Necron: No idea how they are called but they are nasty.
            Tyranids and orks lack them but they have other ways to deal with those puny conscripts. This seems to be by design.

            If you are stilll not able buy snipers in your tournament army due to “mono faction” tournaments then perhaps their rules are to blame since nearly all can take them ; )

    • Hopefully GW will hold off on nerfing a long established unit with fluffy rules until after all the extra goodies they are handing out in each new codex is in play. I have a feeling that after all the relics and special faction rules are added in to the fray Conscripts and Commissar issues are going to be quaint by comparison.

  • mgdavey

    Not heresy.

  • Chris Hilliard

    This sounds like a job for Orkboyz! Just as disposable as Conscripts, but with more stabbin’ power.

    • Spacefrisian

      Necron warriors maybe.

    • highwind

      “Green tide” lists die horrible to IG infantry spam, mainly because of their nearly nonexistent armor safe

  • Just a player

    This is great : )
    The winning army is a fluffly army that will actually look and behave as an army on the battlefield what is not to like.

  • memitchell

    The downside of tournaments is on display here. I’m not knocking the tournament winner, or his army selection. But, no one would field this army outside of a tournament. It’s all spam, msu, and points driven effectiveness. At great expense ($$). The average friendly gamer would not consider 120 Conscripts and 5 Earthshaker cannons average or friendly. Such a specialized and skewed army is not fluffy, not typical, and not really a good vehicle to make judgments (much less FAQ changes) about particular unit’s effectiveness. No more than a 2000pt. army with 160 Genestealers should inspire a change to genestealers. Again, not passing judgement. Just saying that making judgements (pro or con) is not based in most gamer’s reality.

    • JN7

      I’m not sure how 4 x30 conscripts is MSU, but OK.

      • memitchell

        I’m not sure how you thought “msu” referred to the Conscripts instead of the Scions. But, OK.

        • I’m not sure 3x 5 Scions is MSU. I mean technically it is one more than a Couple of Small Units (CSU?) so I guess you can make the argument, but it’s thin.

          • memitchell

            So, your “definition” of msu is more than 3 x 5, but less than 4 x 30. Got it.

          • Multiple (probably more than 3)
            Small (probably less than 30)
            Units (they were definitely units though)

            On a side note, any guard player is probably going to have 100+ guardsmen and 5 or 6 artillery pieces. Since the Manticore is arguably better than the Basilisk, a list like this doesn’t seem that atypical to me. OP probably, but I suspect that most Guard players can field something fairly similar to this.

    • Julien Huguenin

      This…this list is actual fluffy. Mass infantry supported by heavy artillery and a few specialists to capture objectives.

      And 4 x30 conscripts is the exact oppositve of MSU.

      Granted, it would not be fun to play against given how strong and grindy it is, but that’s way better than Deathstars from 7e or 48 ML & Guilliman.

    • georgelabour

      In previous editions it was not unusual for guard armies to filed over 100 infantry in a 1000 points, and entire squadrons of artillery as support.

      I know I have nearly 200 Vostroyans, and had over 100 steel legion just for lists like that.

      • loveone789

        Exactly. I read about the valhallans, death korps, and vostroyans (& Orkz) and fell in love with the “drown them in bodies” meatgrinder army lists.

    • loveone789

      I actually do play armies like this regularly. Its not uncommon for me to bring over 100 meatbags to the table, be it a Greentide or a Commander Kubrik “send in the next wave” Chenkov list. In fact my favorite army in 7th was the renegades of vraks unending horde list

      • memitchell

        I have two horde armies (Orks and Genestealer Cult). I have no objections to lots of bodies. That’s not the issue. I’m not in love with lists that exploit specific rules. I’d say GW is not, either.

        • loveone789

          guess people should bring more snipers and stop complaining

          • memitchell

            I don’t think that’s the whole answer. There’s only two Commissars in the list. But, it would take more than one unit of snipers to kill them both in reasonable time. Don’t know if folks routinely bring a bunch of snipers. Then, even with Morale issues, it’s going to take a lot of shooting to make an impact on 120 Conscripts. A lot of shooting that ain’t shooting something more productive. Again, it’s list that spams and optimizes points/damage efficiency. And, exploits rules (morale nullification, tarpits, indirect fire, and whatever I’m missing). How those overarching goals are called “fluffy” beats me. Yes,
            Everything comes from one codex. Again, it’s a tournament thing. And, finally, it’s a discussion, not complaining, Unless that’s how you label every contrary opinion.

          • JN7

            Your definition of a “rules exploit” seems to be that the rule in question is actually effective and has synergy with other rules. That is not an exploit, that is intelligent list design.

          • loveone789

            Well I run Valhallans, in what I call the Commander Kubrik “Send in the next wave, fix bayonets, drown them in our blood” Chenkov lists, so this is very fluffy for me and is more or less how I run my army. Expendable meat and BFGs. I think people are entitled to their opinions but it seems like they also get overly butthurt over this children’s game of plastic army men. Mind you, I’m not directing that comment specifically at you. Whats sad is if they kept templates, that would probably have solved the problem. I’m just happy my army is actually viable this edition. Sadly my renegade unending horde isn’t 🙁

          • memitchell

            I don’t get how offering an “entitled opinion” is “overly butthut.” I don’t see how anyone could infer that from anything I’ve written. Oh well, 40K forums have been like this since the early days of dial up. People read what they want , instead of what’s there. And, typically assume the worse. Anyway, your army sounds cool. I like Valhallans.

    • NNextremNN

      Since when is mass of troops, heavy artillery and special elite forces not fluffy for AM?

  • Jabberwokk

    Clearly he needs to be *fixed*….bloody WAAC player.

    • Drpx

      I’ll never meet this guy and nobody at my store would run a list like his, but I can’t be happy knowing he’s out there winning tournaments I’d never go to.

      • Jabberwokk

        It offends my idea that no one can be objectively better than me, that being objectively better as a concepts exists, and/or that is has zero impact on my inherent value as a human being if any of that is true.

  • Calgar

    This is amazing, a fluffy good list…. what the hell is going on with 8th…….

    • Drpx

      Templates are gone.
      Everything can wound everything.
      Math nerds no doubt saw this coming a mile away.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        I think they did. A couple of months ago we were talking about how conscripts with rerolls and lasguns were now a threat to Land Raiders etc. Well here is the proof!

        • ZeeLobby

          lol, yup, and i cringe every time they take one down XD.

        • georgelabour

          Proof? Which land raider heavy lists did he end up competing against?

  • Dragon2928

    I’ve got respect for a guard player who brought a ton of infantry. Congrats to him! This looks like a fun list to play against.

  • Spacefrisian

    T3 body spam ey? Canones with combi flamer plus 3 Astra militarum command squads with flamers spammed till you have the same amount of points. Maybe not the same amount of cp but you can bake that spammed ham real good.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Kill 4 models and the whole army crumbles, not a problem.

    • Zingbaby

      Funny how that turned out, to be a problem, for every opponent.

      • Keith Wilson

        yep…. less we forget the 5 earthshakers and 2 mortors … or the hail of plasma ….. excuse me if im not impressed

      • Just a player

        The meta isn’t mature jet. Quite sure that there will be a rise in character killing stuff soon enough.

  • Drpx

    B-but flyer spam was the most broken thing ever. How could he win without 5 storm ravens?

    • Its almost like those got nerfed…….

  • kingcobra668

    I can’t figure out why I continue to read the comments. This community is so toxic. Like, not just here, but in its entirety.

    • ZeeLobby

      I just don’t get how some people are mad at someone spamming fliers, but suddenly OK with someone spamming OP infantry. The double standard of some people is quite ridiculous.

      • NNextremNN

        Because this list does have a big variety of units it’s many cheap units instead of a few expensive ones. And it is even quite fluffy. We can argue about unit and point balance but I think the composition of the list itself looks good.

        • ZeeLobby

          Right. But I still imagine both lists arent that fun to play against. I mean leaf blower had a variety of units as well. But just because we haven’t seen IG win something in years means this deserves a free pass? I dunno. Just seems silly to me. Of course I understand both the narrative and competitive side, so maybe some people just don’t get it.

          • JN7

            Fun is not a metric with quantifiable data, it is an opinion.

    • Ronin

      A lot of 40k players are snowflakes.

      • ZeeLobby

        sigh. can we leave the political dumb name calling to politics…

  • Dalinair

    The list is good but you know, maybe hes just a really good player?

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      its the same concept as the Renegades and Heretics army that lots of people were winning with in 7th.

    • Crevab

      C’mon now, this is 40k. Don’t you know that you simply compare lists and declare a winner?
      /s

  • Da Gargoyle

    I don’t see the problem with it. I would suggest that the fact that the winner is the same guy that won the tourney last year points to the player not the list.

    Questions

    Would anyone else have won with that list?
    Do the basilisks & earth shakers have the same minimum range still?
    And why didn’t snipers take out the Commissars?
    Finally, did his competition take the lay out seriously, at least at first?

    • Keith Wilson

      what did he play last year?

  • Ronin

    I don’t see a problem with this list as a narrative player. My advice to the people calling it WAAC is to, “Git gud”.

  • Jory4001

    The list shown is only 1802 points… am I missing something?

  • blackbloodshaman

    I went to this tournent for about an hour just to look around, I don’t think I saw a single space marines, a few scouts but no full fledged astartes loyal, or chaos

    I saw a space marines finished 5th on bloodofkittens but that wasostly.conscripta as well with a few small vehicles

  • badmojo1966

    Finally a winning list I can look upon without being disgusted.

  • ZeeLobby

    Seems to be several delusional people who don’t play tournaments, but think if a tournament list is fluffy AND OP there’s nothing wrong with the balance…

    • Charon

      There are a lot of people sitting on these type of armies. The longer you are in the hobby the bigger your collection is, especially if there were no new models for decades.. Sitting on 200+ Imperial soliders is nothing out of the ordinary for people playing over 10y.

      • ZeeLobby

        That’s true. I guess locally most IG players have simply sold their armies the last couple years.

        • Charon

          The interesting thing is this is basically the list a firend of mine played during 7th (wyvern instead of earthshakers and veterans instead of scions). Everybody was ok with it as it was not strong at all. Now it has basically become an evil “WAAC TOURNEY NECKBEARD NETLIST!!!”.
          It is fun how strange people are in this community. Spamming strong units is ok if the strong units happen to be fluffy. If the army has different strong unit than the fluff describes, the list becomes an abomination that should be purged and displays everything wrong with X while the power level between both lists is exactly the same.

    • There is certainly a balance issue at the moment, but since GW is handing out buffs like candy with each codex, perhaps it might be a bit early to be saying Conscripts are the “worst thing evar.”
      I have a hard time with this one. Every bit of how this combo works is fluffy and pretty thematic. If GW hadn’t removed blob squads this issue would be even worse. It also seems a stretch to call this spamming.

  • georgelabour

    And yet another tournament where a pure knights army did not win.

    Instead it’s won by something most of the doomsayers likely would have dismissed two months ago. Usually because they were busy squealing about suplex mareens.

    Or whatever trendy term they invented to try and make their whining seem cool.

    Someday though, at least according to the ‘lol GW stuff dumb’ crowd, that super heavy end of days will occur. And on that day I bet all those edgelords will feel quite smug that they were finally right after so many years.

    • Charon

      Read up the comments again, this was predicted multiple times. Quite the opposite “hurr durr conscripts can not hurt vehicles so they are bad!” was the most standard answer from the everything is awesome crowd. In fact this was discussed as soon as the “no templates anymore” articles were revealed.

      • georgelabour

        I’m reaching back even further with what I am referencing. Specifically things people said when the knights codex was first announced.

        I even recall a certain someone making comments like “Super heavies will always win all games because they’ll always kill anything they attack”, and similar statements born out of sheer ignorance.

        • Charon

          If you are refering to 7th (or 6th for that metter) you should check your facts.
          Indeed there were an awful lot of knight lists and every other list tried to also fit them in (remember the nid lists that also contained a single come the apocalypse knight?)
          The reason for knights to struggle in 7th was the demi company and the ever present death stars.
          Please. Get your facts straight.
          And if you come acoss people who solely judge a unit by “kill potential” without onsidering points, meta and other factors, you can savely ignore them.
          This is the same people whio claimed the demi company is terrible as it can not kill anything.

          • georgelabour

            Well, as I have explained a couple times now, I was referencing things people (including some in this article discussion) said around the time they released the first Imperial Knights codex.

            You seem to have skipped over that part in your rush to be condescending.

            Again I was specifically mocking the ‘opinion’ about how all knight army lists were going to destroy everything ever becauze ZOMG they’ll always hit, and kill. Oh, and never die since super heavies were unkillable cheese no infantry force could stand against.

            And that was going to kill the tournament scene for good….

            Which was, again, something certain people tried to claim. At least some People who like to comment here and on the BOLS forums anyways. Until the next thing to complain about came along, and then their song changed yet again.

            Now, which would you like me to do. Check your facts, or go with the advice given in that second to last sentence?

          • Charon

            “Again I was specifically mocking the ‘opinion’ about how all knight army lists were going to destroy everything ever becauze ZOMG they’ll always hit, and kill. Oh, and never die since super heavies were unkillable cheese no infantry force could stand against.”

            And this opinion was actually correct as knights dominated the scene after their release. There was not a single army (minus Wraith Knight Eldar with the 7th codex) that did compete without at least a single allied knight until deathstars emerged.

            So again, you are wrong. Knights did dominate as predicted but where pushed back when other even more invincible units where on the rise.

          • georgelabour

            Yeah…dominating so bad we kept seeing all those BOLS articles about how they swept tournaments.

            Just like this article that I made the comment on….

            And AGAIN, they never ended the game for all times ever.

            But hey, keep moving that yardstick there bud. I’m sure if you keep changing your story enough times you’ll eventually write a good one.

  • Matt C

    good god. moving that much stuff has got to be a chore.

  • SacTownBrian

    One thing missing in the article is how the rounds went. Did he finish all his games through 5 rounds? Seems like a ton of models and dice to deal with.

  • Keith Wilson

    spam away … conscripts, scion plasma and massed indirect fire … very origional

  • Vachones

    Another event, another round of list worshiping. Its neat to see the lists and I get that it can be a good barometer of where the game is at when played competitively, but its not an “unbeatable list” that won. We should acknowledge that Brandon Grant is a REALLY good player who won the event.

  • petrow84

    Obligatory comment about a WAAC spam list winning a tournament.

    • petrow84

      Generic reply about that it is at least a fluffy army, as Imperial Guard meant to be played.

  • Tushan

    Cheap hqs = command point cheese.

    IG should be hit in the CP department.

  • E65

    I would like to know what the opposing army lists were that this army played against.

  • NNextremNN

    I really like that list it really does seem to fit AM. I’m not good enough to actually say something about point balance but the list itself looks good.

  • euansmith

    “HQ: Company Commander with Shotgun, Chain sword, Frag Grenades”

    I like that load out from a fluffy, modelling point of view. It sounds like a great looking mini.

  • MightyOrang

    As an orks player not sure I get all the hand wringing about conscript spam. That’s just a Green Tide with Yarrick and artillery. It’s the aggregate that’s kick your face in good — or blocks of 30 guys.

  • ColonelFazackerley

    Imperial soup.

  • Liam Lofty Loftus

    The original Battalion list, if you take out Yarrick, is very fluffy especially if you’re using Russian style IG, the second battalion is pretty fluffy too, the Cavalry to the rescue as it were, I could even argue that the 1st Battalion and the 3rd could be an Arty company, with the conscripts as Gun crew/labour crew, taken by surprised with the Scions in the way to relieve them..