40K: The Unstoppable List – WGC2017

ali-horz

This list went all the way and grabbed the winners crown at WarGamesCon 2017. Take a look at how it ticks.

This list duked it out this last weekend in sunny Austin Texas at this year’s WarGamesCon IX (I CAN’T believe it’s been trucking for 9 years!).  This list won Best General edit: Best Overall on overall battle points based on how the tournament calculated the winner*.  It’s also a useful study in just how different 8th Edition is.  You can see last year’s WGC 2016 winner at the tail end of 7th Edition for comparison to what was hot just 1 year ago.

I’d like you to meet my 5 brothers and sisters…

The List

Colin McDade

  • 116PL / 1999pts
  • 17 Units
  • 8 Command Points

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Roboute Guilliman: 18 PL, 360pts
Warlord trait: Tenacious Fighter

Vanguard Detachment
Lord Kaldor Draigo: 12 PL, 240pts
-Psy Power: Smite, Gate of infinity, Hammerhand

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator armor: 7 PL, 105pts
-Psyker, force sword, storm bolter Psy Power: Terrify, smite

Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85pts
Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85pts
Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85pts
Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85pts
Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85pts
Callidus Assassin: 5 PL, 80pts

Vanguard Detachment
Celestine: 11PL, 200pts
-1x Geminae Superia

Ultramarine Librarian: 6 PL, 105pts
-Force sword, bolt pistol, Psy Power: Smite, Null Zone, Veil of Time

Eversor Assassin: 4 PL, 70pts
Eversor Assassin: 4 PL, 70pts
Eversor Assassin: 4 PL, 70pts

Vindicare Assassin: 5 PL, 90pts
Vindicare Assassin: 5 PL, 90pts

Retributor Squad: 10 PL, 94pts
– +1 retributor, x4 Heavy bolters

Thanks little assassin buddies, I got this now…

Why it Works

Analysis via Goatboy & Bigred

Basically this list is composed of mostly characters so you can only ever shoot at the closest model.  The controlling player will try to make this be one of the six Culexus Assassins, so you are only ever shooting at the army on a 6+ and cannot cast smite. So it deploys with all six Culexus in front and everything else maneuvers, hides, and kills you.  The Eversors are able to drop in and give some critical part of the opposing army a nasty surprise with a 1 turn shock assault, followed by a trio of explosions in your ranks when they finally go down. The combination of Guilliman, Draigo, and Celestine are going to give you fits, while the army’s remaining units are pounding you with their decent psychic tricks.

Overall, the key hallmark of the list is it’s heavy manipulation of the Character-targeting rule mechanic.

~How does this rank compared to your local meta?

*Editor’s Note: This list went 4-1 and claimed the top spot (Best Overall) due to how the tournament calculates total points (a combination of Battle Points, Paint and Sportsmanship). Added for clarification.
  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    This is not what we wanted for 8th edition.

    • ZeeLobby

      Who knows. Maybe GW had a lot of assassin models to unload XD.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Something tells me they did not plan for this at all.

        • Crevab

          That would require someone that thinks differently among the writers

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            What you don’t play tournies and spam netlists as well?

          • Brettila

            This is why I don’t.

        • wibbling

          They didn’t expect such abuse, no – because who would? They’d think people would enjoy immersing themselves in the story, background and ethos not simply twist the rules to salve their ego.

          • Karru

            Maybe the tournament scene that tested the game for them? You do realise that they had quite the input in development, of course they would want things like this to be possible, because it makes list building much less of a drag and makes the game work faster as your opponent either concedes or you have so few models on the table that the turns just fly by. Makes for a more efficient tournament.

          • ZeeLobby

            Eh. They were just a warm blanket wrapped around the turd to make us feel better, haha. I’m sure they were just excited to play old stuff that might be good, not actually building lists to win.

          • Karru

            With the way the army building turned out, I highly doubt that honestly.

          • Jabberwokk

            This is actually an interesting take.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            we know they were asked to comment, we don’t know for sure if they were listened to…

          • Tushan

            *Tam tam taaaaam*

            lol

          • Jabberwokk

            Anyone who has worked with humans long enough should not be naive enough to believe this. If a human can do it, some human will do it.

          • grim_dork

            Amen.

          • euansmith

            I’m sure I can get that piece of toast out of the electric toaster with this fork.

          • Jabberwokk
          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            But unplugging the toaster takes soooo long!

          • Tiernoc

            Which is painfully ignorant of human nature, and they should know better (especially after decades of experience).

          • Andrew O’Brien

            I don’t believe making the most competitive list is abusing the rules. I enjoy the fluff a little bit, I’m not a huge fan of the hobby side, but I love the game. I make lists that take advantage of the rules. Sure I build them so my friends have fun as well, but we don’t play tournaments. Playing the most effective list is not abuse, it just may also not be very sportsman like.

      • Jabberwokk

        I’m fairly certain we both predicated that someone would find away to break the game.

        This is the advantage of having a ‘living’ rule set so they can patch abuses like this out and/or gather community feedback on the best way to fix it. If in fact it is considered in need of fixing anyway,

        • Simon Chatterley

          I heard (and I can’t confirm nor deny this) that the testers of the game did not see all the detachments.

          They had Patrol, Battalion, the big one (name escapes me…Brigade?) and the Super heavy one.

          So in testing it was fairly well rounded with troops being taken and other slots being used for those never used ever units and they all thought it was good.

          Then GW dropped the Vanguard type spam formation and Flyer wing on release and the tournament scene has done what it does best and broken it.

          But at least GW is trying to fight the fires as they appear…

          • Jabberwokk

            Better than the F*** you and buy my S***! approach of 7th.

          • zebes

            its easy to fix: ” the characters can be ignored as the closest target.”

    • Thornoo1

      A a 25 year veteran of 40k I took a long hard look at 8e when it dropped. I had high hopes for the rules set, it implemented a number of things we had been toying with, wounds on tanks as an example.

      About 5 games I regretfully shelved my 15 40k armies. I’m going to sit this edition out, the first since 3rd.

      The immersion is gone and the broken lists remain.

      • Koen Diepen Van

        Well that broken things where to remain was a given. Something being better than something else is a given for anny game. But how characters work now is compleetly broken. And the multiple detachments
        types don´t help. Ppl in competative settigns are just going to spamm what is most effective and the detachments actualy help

        • ZeeLobby

          This sums it up pretty well.

        • stinkoman

          best part, is that the model count is low. but i guess that’s why characters cost 30-40$ for the smaller ones.

          • Keith Wilson

            im betting its not all GW models

        • Griffin

          Maybe limit the number of characters a list can have?

          • Muninwing

            that would help.

            maybe limiting how characters interact would too.

            “character targeting rules are revoked if there are no infantry non-character troops within range X”

      • stinkoman

        another 25 yr vet and i shelved all but one of my 7 armies due to blandness. i agree that imersion is gone, but i still play once a week hoping with all the rapid changes and codex releases, things will change. as they say, if you dont like 40k, wait 5 mins.

        guard are the only ones who survived for me. luckily i play with folks who don’t do this crap. I used one eversor and it shut down my opponents plan. almost guaranteed to shut one of his heavy support choices down early.

        the majority of the armies have become very bland and vanilla feeling with the new “scalable” rule set. Some units are wildly over priced (AM lascannon team) or wildly under-priced (like said eversor) for what their usefulness is.

      • Defenestratus

        25 year vet here as well (who also sat out 3rd as I looked at it as the dumbing down of a great game). It didn’t take me 15 games. It took 3. One 50PL game I played against 1 chaos lord, and 4 dreadnoughts of various types. People complained up and down about 7th edition formations but what we have in 8th is worse because you no longer need to pay formation taxes or worthless units to get the good ones anymore.

        8th is also bland as f*ck. Sure its fast, but the game is a mile wide and an inch deep – even with the codexes. I can’t remember being so bored and disinterested playing a game as when I played my GK against a 1ksons list that literally just wiped me off the board in 2 turns.

        I understand that people are having a good time with 8th but I can’t be bothered with it. I’ll only play it now with good friends as something to do between binge-watching episodes of Game of Thrones.

        • Kevin Glasgow

          Now you know how us WHFB players feel and why 9th Age is so popular

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            9th Age is not that popular… At least from what I have seen.

          • Kevin Glasgow

            Look at the number of events on their website. Numerous 2-day GT’s, all over America and Europe. In my Socal areas it’s huge

          • Vicent Martín Bonet

            9th age is barely popular at all and it owes morè to the poor transition.

        • Tiernoc

          While I understand why you feel that way, you should remember that all most of us have to work from currently is an index, the bare-bones skeleton of what will eventually be our codex.

          I’d give it a year or so (for half or so of the codecies to drop) and give it another look.

          That gives GW time to react to issues that the playerbase *WILL* find, and flesh out the armies through rules, balancing, and (hopefully!) some new models.

          • Marc Berry

            I think its things like the los and firing arcs for vehicles and allowing themselves to be completely shut down by infantry that did it for me

          • LankTank

            Bang ON.
            Chaos and Space Marines are ballin’ at the moment.

        • aargh00

          I as well find it very bland. The only real strategy available is crush your enemy as quickly as possible. Everything moves so quickly and there are no angle of fire rules, so maneuvering is almost pointless (except to overcome the atrocious character rule). The fluff is appallingly lame and only serves to undermine the grandness of the setting. The only thing I enjoy about it is that there is a much wider variety of factions and army types that are valid and competitive. But then, the game is so simple and shallow that the balance doesn’t serve to make the game more interesting. They tried to add a layer of depth with stratagems, but mostly those just help you mitigate your own mistakes or luck, which also hallows out the experience.

          On top of that, there seems to be very little inherent logic in the rules. Say what you will about 40k before, its rules always tried to represent a real battlefield. 8th feels very much like a game, ungrounded in any kind of reality. There is no immersion.

          I’m still going to play, and hopefully as it evolves, codexes get released, and a meta develops games might become more interesting and not just revolve around obliterating your opponent in the first two turns, but I’m also not going to hold my breath.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        I feel the same myself. People at my club are slowly getting a handle on how much less fun 8th is than we were having with 7th, and are gradually going back to 7th. I had a game of 7th tonight and with some communication beforehand over lists it was great. I have another planned for next week.

        At least 7th was a complete ruleset with updated rules for all factions. We were talking about a handicapping system as an easy way to fix weaker factions, with Orks getting maybe 20% more points for instance.

        I was [planning to strip and repaint for 30K so I could carry on playing 7th, but it turns out I won’t have to.

        • banana raccoon

          So you intentionally gimped lists to cherry pick an experience of 7th?

          • bginer

            What’s wrong with that?

            Honest question. In these days of 8th where being tabled in the bottom of turn 2 is quite common, why not arrange a game that’s going to be close so both players have a good experience?

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Yep. Because my opponent is not as experienced as me and was playing a weaker faction. So I took a fluffier list to make a more even game. It was actually a flyer heavy list so I warned him about that in advance.

            All games need that sort of communication to a degree. I’d do the same in Bolt Action if bringing three tanks for instance.

            Because of the rock/paper/scissors aspect of 40k its vital for this game. Thats not just a 7th ed thing.

            However GW games are unbalanced and 7th worse than previous editions (though 8th is as bad it seems). That said, 7th is still great fun, cinematic, immersive and has lots of flavour (unlike 8th which is dull, boring and silly).

            So of course we talk about thingsto get the game we want, why on earth wouldn’t we?

    • J Mad

      Good news, they are doing FAQ’s to stop stuff like this! send them a letter or send them this article and hope for some changes.

    • Keith Wilson

      easy fix …. make assassins unique

      • SilentPony

        1 Assassin, of any type, per HQ unit. Simple

    • graybrother

      Agreed

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      ah but 8th is so much better and balanced!

      Problem is this will be harder to fix than the flyer spam was.

      • banana raccoon

        Such as making Assassins unique? Like they were before? Or did Mr Laserburn Vet :-))))))) forget? Dude just go play 7th.

  • Reaver

    Welcome to the real 8th Edition!

  • Reaver

    Super fun eh?!

    Suddenly those formations and detachments of 7th don’t seem so bad…

    At least we had stuff that for the most part represented a real force on the table.

    Only saving grace is GW has been quick to introduce tweaks to try and dissuade this nonesense.

    Celestine and Girlyman certainly need their rules / points examining again.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah. Cause 3 Wraithknights and 6 units of scatterbikes was such a “real force”. Let’s be honest, it’s something GW has always struggled to promote. But I do have to admit, 8ths minimal restrictions create some pretty wonky stuff.

      • SharpDeadFace

        Much more realistic than this list or for instance the 5 stormravens and girlyman….

        The WK was way too under-priced in 7th, it should have been 350ish not 295.

        Other than that I would welcome formations and army specific detachments back with open arms. They at least had a grounding from the fluff.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          I would welcome back the days of 5th edition where we only had 1 CAD and everyone used the same one

          • Munn

            Because you play guard and you want to win every game for free.

          • Crevab

            What?

          • euansmith

            5th ed without the silly wound allocation shenanigans would be nice.

            I like Mantic’s Kings of War army building, where taking a Regiment unlocks a couple of Troops (small units) and one monster, hero or warmachine; and taking a Horde unlocks more Troops and special units. It certainly means that you end up with a mix of unit types that looks something like a army.

          • Muninwing

            i was hoping they’d put more focus on the general you chose.

            SCs might have more power but less range, or more range and the same power but more price, etc. worth it, but not game-breaking.

            so if you pick a Librarian, you can only have Detachment 1 or 2… a Chaplain can have 2, 3, and 4… a Commander can have any… your faction’s character librarian might give a special ability, but must take detachment 1 and is still decently more points than a nameless one.

            and each commander had specializations for the army. so if your force commander was a SM, and chose “Blood Angels” from the faction list, then all units in their detachment had to be from x list and gained these specific rules… if you chose a “Valhallan” IG commander, they got this ability army-wide… if you chose “x” they could buy from list Y to get stuff.

            if you’re already carrying around datasheets for each unit, why not add one more for the force itself?

          • NNextremNN

            What you describe are basically formations from 7th edition.

          • Muninwing

            … which were not perfect, but had their uses.

            i guess there were some similarities. you could only go double-demi in 7th by taking a chaplain and a commander. cause vs effect.

          • NNextremNN

            Well The Battle Company was kinda fluffy but still hated people wanted this gone and got it. And some of the smaller formations came back as stratgems. I also doubt this list we be legal for long. But they could have prevented this from the beginning with a little thinking.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Battle Company would have been cool simply because it gave obsec to everything, there was no need for the free vehicles. that just made it broken, like War convocation. Free stuff in a points based game was the dumbest idea.

          • Koen Diepen Van

            Well i agree that 1 cad would be way better for the game but how will gw sell models? then

          • Crevab

            Same way they had for decades?

          • Muninwing

            the issue with CADs (or the FOC) was that there are certain armies who used different-than-normal unit types and were well-grounded in the fluff. people would complain about them, but usually they were mid tier at best.

            sadly, i play two of them.

            Both are DA.

            Deathwing, for the record, is a fun army to play. and a hard one. the small elite force is nasty if you treat them like a horde, but has huge disadvantages that a good or experienced opponent would know how to utilize.

            but first they had a portion at the back of the book that said “if you want to play Deathwing, then you can only take these units and in this way” (only LRs as Heavy, only Dreads as Elite, only Terminators as troops, no FA)

            then they had a SC that changed the unit type of terminators to troops, but a regular FOC.

            then they had a special (and frustratingly mediocre) formation and detachment.

            now they have the “up to 6 elites” Detachment.

            they keep trying different strategies, but none of them are effective. and there are enough other variants within the standard model that it’s not a surprise that these twists mangle rules unintentionally.

          • Defenestratus

            F*ck the CAD.

            I hated that stupid thing. So boring and doesn’t fit the Xenos races’ army structures.

          • Karru

            Care to explain the logic here? You do realise that the way unit roles are dictated actually show the army structure of armies, right? Like for example, Eldar Guardians and Dire Avengers form the core of the Eldar armies, so those are Troops. Every army needs a certain number of Core units, so the slots show that. Core units are always the most numerous, so those have more slots than “special” support units.

        • NNextremNN

          Well they rework 7th faction formations into 8th stratgems.

        • ZeeLobby

          Well and scatbikes were underpriced as well. It was a list of spam-able underpriced powerful units (throw in warp spiders as well). Which is the same as this. This is just individual characters instead of units.

          • Jaime Corona

            I hated the army specific formations, I played with IG. I hated that for some armies to have a formation and some awesome rules they only needed 5 miniatures but for me I needed 9 Leman russes or 60 troops or 6 miniatures and a building and my mom’s underwear…. and still wasn’t worth.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I mean it had potential, but was just poorly executed (and of course never really tested).

          • Thomson

            hehe… people complained its about formations, people complained its about flyers, people complained its about LOW, people complained its about special rules.

            But these things always where only the effect, not the cause.

            The cause is that so called GW game designers have no grasp on statistics and proper balancing.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I definitely agree there. My concern is that it’s not actually GW game designers, but upper managements desire to maximize sales. When you look at each one of those issues (formations, introduction of fliers/LOW to the core game, etc.) it’s really just and additional way to get people to buy more. At some point they adopted the “we make models, not games” mentality to justify their lack of game development. Now they have this edgy cool new look (on Facebook yo!), but I’m not sure that underlying architecture of max sales first has really changed.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            You have to introduce cool new items, or else people will play with the same models they bought 20 years ago.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        CAD plus AD at <2000 with double that above was the highlight of army construction in my opinion. Hit the sweet spot of variety but restricted spamming.

    • aargh00

      Celestine wouldn’t be so bad if she didn’t have the character rule protecting her. She’s more of a distraction than anything. I’ve never had her get trashed so hard as she did fighting Typhus in 8th.

      Fun fact: once Celestine takes a single wound then even if she resurrects her Geminae, all future wounds still have to be applied to her first! 8th is such nonsense.

  • Simon Horrocks

    Yep that character rule is gonna get changed… That is horrible and hilarious at the same time.

    • AbesolutZERO

      Shouldn’t be hard- Characters cannot screen other characters.

      • Simon Horrocks

        That is a pretty elegant solution and also rules as intended. They should hire you.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Kills this list’s play-ability very quickly, since you can then single out the juicy characters rather than the hard to crack assassins.

        • Koen Diepen Van

          Yea that would solve it, but that would be a extra line of text. I think 8th edition is a case where gw purposefully went for simple over elegant. They don’t mind that the game can break as long as it is simple to pickup.

          • NNextremNN

            Make Unique a keyword? This would be pretty easy and they added this line of text to some other units.

        • Taikishi

          The only problem I have with this is units like Celestine and her Geminae, which are a 3-model unit of characters, should be able to screen for a 1 model character but an assassin shouldn’t be able to screen for Celestine and her Geminae.

        • Thomson

          No, they would never hire him. He understands something about rules writing.

      • ellobouk

        Making Assassins unique again would go a long way to resolving this.

        • euansmith

          #makeassassinsuniqueagain

        • Muninwing

          that’s less of a solution, since there are definite reasons (game and fluff) why more than one operative from a temple might show up in one place.

          i would prefer a requirement to field them, which is not without precedent.

          so “you may only field one assassin per HQ” would cut this from 11 to 4.

          it’s not as harsh as ” you can only field one assassin per Inquisitor” or “you can only field one of each” — maybe taking certain HQs would unlock the ability to take more than one

          like “you can take one… taking an inquisitor means you can take one of each… taking [SC] means you can take two of each… but in any case you cannot take more than you have HQ units”

          so here you could have two of any one, but no more than four. maybe swap the callidus for a second eversor?

          but 8th was supposed to be the lightener of rules. to get the rules to not suck, you need to add so many caveats and patches that it’s roughly the same length.

          almost like such games are complicated, and trying to simplify them isn’t easy.

          • NNextremNN

            Or you could skip the half page length description of all restrictions and circumstances which allow you to field how much of what kind of assassin and make them each one per army. Fast and easy.

          • Muninwing

            “that’s less of a solution, since there are definite reasons (game and fluff) why more than one operative from a temple might show up in one place.”

            first thing i said.

          • NNextremNN

            Oh and why are 4 Culexus assassins suddenly a good idea? There aren’t good reasons not in fluff and not in game for more than one. Those guys are supposed to be rare and elite. You want more pariahs? Get Sisters of Silence. More snipers? Get Ratlings or Scouts.

      • John Garside

        Then you have the odd situation of the enemy being able to target that backfield commander half way across the board in a unit, just because some cheap guy happens to be stood in front of them. Waac players will find a way

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Or perhaps they can just say that units with the keyword “character” with less that 10 starting wounds, can’t hold or contest objectives.

      • Kami

        exactly what I came up with

  • ZeeLobby

    The sad part is that the ally system will always allow imperial forces to cherry pick the best units from a wide selection while factions with limited to no allies will struggle to compete. I really wish allies had gone out the window with 8th :/…

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Stuff like this could have been lessened if they had not created all the various detachments.. All we really needed was the old Force Organization chart and the detachment that lets you take an extra slot for -1 CP.

      • Munn

        You a guard player? Cause it sounds like you’re a guard player. Under your system 200 conscripts lists become the only thing worth playing. Thanks for breaking the game.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Uhhh, why are you being so hostile?

          I never said detatchmemts were the only thing that would need to be fixed, now did I?

          Maybe you should consider giving people the benefit of the doubt before you come at them like a rabid animal.

          • Karru

            It is almost as if he doesn’t realise that in order to make your proposed system to work, GW would actually have to fix the f*cked up unit splitting of Guard and bring back the Infantry Platoon, which would make Conscript spam not viable any more as you would have to take Platoon Command Squad and 2 Infantry Squads for every 50 Conscripts.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            I’ve been getting verbally abused by my areas Eldar and Tau players for netlist IG players. I’ve used two blobs of conscripts since the first day I could along with a ton of other infantry and even tanks despite how easily they died the last few editions…nope I’m just a spam conscript player. My lack of empathy for them in this is that those were the same people who spammed scatbikes, wraithknights, markerlights, riptides…you know fluff lists that aren’t netlists at all. Our resident Ork player also gets the hate.

          • Karru

            The eternal pain, isn’t it? I concluded that I am cursed when it comes to armies I collect. I started with Space Marines in 5th edition, went with Ultramarines. Then 6th edition dropped and they were made into one of the most powerful chapters in the codex.

            I also started Eldar at the end of 5th edition, with slight emphasis on Wraiths, then 6th edition dropped.

            I started Guard in 7th edition, Infantry heavy army with only one Veteran Squad, other troop slots were taken by Infantry Platoons, then 8th edition drops.

            I also started collecting Orks in 7th edition…

            So, which army would you guys like to see become broken in next edition?

          • Crevab

            Sisters

          • Jabberwokk

            Tyranids

          • Karru

            I mean, aren’t Tyranids quite powerful this edition already? I tested them out not too long ago against a Tau army and won quite nicely. Tyrant Guard + Swarmlord + Venomthropes combo worked wonders.

          • Jabberwokk

            Yeah but you said broken.

          • Karru

            Point taken.

          • Jabberwokk

            😀

          • Muninwing

            yep. i started DE Wyches in 4th, then in 5th they couldn’t consolidate into combat and got shot up.

            in 5th i wanted to play the Deathwing i’d been tooling around with, but kept running into GK terminator lists which were cheaper and better equipped.

            i gave up playing for awhile and just painted… put together a company of DE

            then 6th hit and they got the dakka banner. one game i rolled 112 bolter shots, then got 48 TL shots in round 2.
            near-tabled a Nid player in one go.

            then 7th hit and i had a double-demi already… but not enough vehicles to make it cheezy enough to counter scatbike/WK/riptide spam lists.

            it’s hit or miss.

            i started an Iron Hands list before 8th hit. looks like i wasn’t lucky this time, but i still think they will hold their own. now i just need to get some games in…

          • Tiernoc

            Necrons or Chaos could certainly use some love!

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            I feel your pain. I’m actually trading/selling off my Eldar as the last few editions have made me lose interest. I started Dark Angels in 2nd Ed specifically because of the fluff and flavor of the Ravenwing. It wasn’t a great army and the tiny model count made winning tough but I loved the army. Along came the last couple of years and suddenly I’m “that guy”. My army is older than half the guys I play but yeah I’m not salty.

          • Drpx

            Everybody hates Guard now that they actually play like Guard.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            This is so true. Grav spam killed my desire to field any vehicles. Now life if sweet!

          • Matt Halkos

            I have 3 mork/gorkanaughts that I bought in 7th. Liked the models. Bought the 1st before rules dropped and found out they were terible. Bought the 2nd to run dread mob. But I do get crap for running them now a lot. If I ran these babies in 7th I should have free reign to run them in 8th without judgement.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Orks have been the ugly step children for so long they don’t even flinch when hit. Suddenly the army is brutal and the models that were laughed at are good and people complain.

        • KingAceNumber1

          I’m really curious what your beef is with Guard players.

          • Thomson

            the problem with Guard is that conscripts are too cheap. Since basically the only thing guards can do well is dying, conscripts are the best at it because you only pay for the wound they have and nothing else.

            And you can scatter the table with models, making it impossible for your foe to drop down his high tech specialized super units where he needs them.

            GW forgot how precious the ability to shut down enemy deployment is in 8th. Basically I think conscripts should cost the same as regular guardsmen (and power points should also be increased). Problem solved.

            Regular guardsmen can actually hit sometimes, Conscripts can litter the board with bodies. Both is equally important.

    • Jabberwokk

      Or have bigger incentives to play in faction.

      Warmahordes has some pretty compelling buffs to your army if you play a theme force. Something like that.

      Example: If all models in your army have the for every Y amount of points You many nominate one/all of those unit’s with keyword as your ace. Your ace gets Bonus Z.

      • NNextremNN

        That’s chapter tactics and relics and already in Space Marine Codex yet he still chooses not to use them.

        • Jabberwokk

          Was the Sm codex legal at time of play?

          In any case I was think if you had a table you could pick a reward from for your aces like +2/+2 vs character in said list you could dampen the effectiveness of such lists that rely on keyword synergy or they can declare a unit type they like to kill and make the effective vs whatever.

          What I’m basically getting at is make the bonus’s more compelling then they currently are and what you basically said was they currently aren’t.

          • NNextremNN

            Not sure if it was already legal.

            But Space Marines more or less have a table from which they have to choose from. And they even have stratgems which they can use in a way depending on the situation.

            But some lists are still more universally useable than specific counter buffs.

            I think the solutions would rather be to prevent such spam lists (I’m not even against spam in tournaments but this amount of assassins is just stupid). Instead of buffing counters which would lead to other new OP lists.

          • Jabberwokk

            Yeah your right. Obviously any solution needs to be tested and vetted but I was just thinking of ways that didn’t stop people from bring w/e lists they wanted but providing counters and incentives that lead players away from wanting to break the game ion the first place. Catch the flies with honey as opposed to vinegar as it were.

          • ccrraazzyyman

            The SM codex was not used during Wargames Con 2017.

          • Jabberwokk

            Well then I’ll reserve judgement till the next tourney I guess. TY.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Chapter Approved is likely going to have to address a few things come December.

    – Alpha Strike is way too powerful and needs to be hard nerfed
    – Crap like this list should not exist
    – The “not able to target a character” wound threshold should be lowered to say 5.
    – Points costs for a lot of the named characters (especially the Primarchs) needs to be re-adjusted upward quite a bit.

    • KingAceNumber1

      I agree with basically all of this. I think the most egregious offender for abuse right now is the character rule. Some fixes I’d like to see:
      – No reserves on the board til t2
      – Characters cannot screen for characters (this needs to happen, period)
      – Magnus goes up to 450ish, gilly goes up to 400-415. Both of them are just a bit too cheap (and I play KSons)

    • Dan

      “Characters cannot screen for characters” should be “only Troops or units with keyword can screen for characters” would fix most of that up.

      Allies should be adjusted so that all detachments must be same faction like or but each detachment must be army specific or

  • ChubToad

    The fix is really simple. Limit the amount of detachements to 1 or two for tournaments. No rules tweeking needed.

    On a side note I really like that list. Problem is This is a “no friends” list, and I like to have friends.

    • Munn

      That won’t happen. Going down to 2 wouldn’t change it much. going down to 1 players would riot, plenty of armies don’t even work in one detachment

      • ChubToad

        Won’t work or can’t pose a threat to multiple detachment lists? There’s a difference and we cannot compare both, they are simply different.

    • Nyyppä

      Nope. The fix is in the character rules and/or assassin rules.

      • ChubToad

        How so? Spam is still the problem here and that is easily fixed with the said detachment limit. Rules for characters are just fine, one can see that in lists that don’t abuse the use of the same unit over and over again a.k.a “normal” lists we all play in friendly games. Abusing it is the main problem here, that is spam.

        • NNextremNN

          1 Detachment still leaves a lot of room for spam 😉

          • ChubToad

            But it’s limited to 6 units per slot at the most, which without support of other detachments means lower probability of efficiency. By eliminating the combination of multiple detachments you force players to adequate themselves to a very limited but actually more balanced environment.

          • NNextremNN

            Don’t worry even with that limit people will find a way to break the game. But yeah it might lead to more diverse lists.

        • KingAceNumber1

          I think the only change characters need is not being able to screen for other characters. If you have 10 characters in a blob and one culexus an inch in front, it makes no damn sense that he’s the only one I can target.

        • Nyyppä

          True, but this particular spam is not a FOC problem, it’s a character problem.

    • NNextremNN

      The number of the detachments is not the problem it’s the number of assassins which makes no sense.

  • paxter

    on the flip side of it…

    Its quite thematic tho… a full assassin army with the triumvirate leading the imperial agents. If I were to build this I prob drop all the triumvirate and bring a full inquisition army with this assassins

    I like the idea 400pts cap on allies in AOS

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Its not fluffy at all.

      Guilliman would not be caught dead without the Custodes and/or the Ultramarines. You don’t send the leader of the Imperium into a war zone with a handful of assassins. This isn’t even fluffy enough for a battle in the throne room.

      • stinkoman

        he really should be limited to a battalion of ultramarines.

  • Aegis Arising

    Honestly, when I see these kinds of lists, I want to push the maker, and the designers, in front of an approaching subway car.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Don’t hate the player, hate the game. The Designers and Developers allowed this filth to happen.

      • Crevab

        and the design teams barely changed in a decade

        • ZeeLobby

          And 6th and 7th we’re not better frankly.

    • paxter

      yet the main cheese of this the Culexus can be countered by a number of units that ignore the +6 to hit, from flamers, stationary stormtalons, DARK reapers! and of course the hemlock… they can make short work of those models very fast.

    • disqus_yyglaTdo9o

      Game is extensive. One of the biggest games ever made. Something is bound to slip to the cracks. Give it a break/rest, they are just humans who don’t cater to WAAC-whinebags.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Wow stepping up to murder over a game of toy soldiers…nice…real nice…

  • Nyyppä

    Dat spam.

  • UnLachy

    I opened this article knowing full well I would hate it. What is wrong with me?

    • Nyyppä

      Curiosity. The same thing happened to all of us.

      • Crevab

        When I clicked I was expecting something that resembled an army, not… this

        • Nyyppä

          Well, it’s always like this. Think of it as a lesson.

          • Crevab

            Hadn’t always been. As stupid as some of the benefits formations and detachments gave, at least they often forced a core of army-like things.
            And before that it was just lopsided FOCs

          • Mira Bella

            Jup. I hated Formations with a passion. Now I want them back.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            remember when Iron Warriors getting a fourth HS choice for their CAD was considered overpowered!?

          • Nyyppä

            Not really, but back in the day I was the only CSM player around and I played WB even back then.

    • Snord

      I did the same thing. And I knew there would be comments about this being all GW’s fault. But ultimately what kind of a knobend wants to play this kind of thing? The folks at GW are basically fans – they assume that most players want to put cool models on the table, and design lists around that. I don’t think they can get their heads around the players who think this kind of list is fun. And I can understand that – it just seems very boring and rather pointless.

      • euansmith

        I think you’ve hit the nail on its head. GW has got around to promoting their narrative style a bit more these days, but seem to struggle with creating a robust competitive system. Maybe they need to make the break between the narrative and competitive games clearer; making the army building for matched play even more prescriptive.

        • NNextremNN

          Well they could have made these assassins unique that would have been fluffy and logical … but yeah GW doesn’t think about those things and I start to thing they were purposefully fooled by those “tournament players” they asked for “playtesting”.

          • euansmith

            “I think it is downright neighbourly of Mr Fox to volunteer to guard the hen house for us tonight.”

          • Drpx

            It wasn’t about playtesting, it was about hype generation. Same reason every video game has an open beta a month before release now.

          • NNextremNN

            But GW never did a open beta test. They did a closed alpha test. The open beta test is what happens now after the official release.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean GW doesnt do anything that might restrict sales as well. That tends to be their guiding light.

      • Crevab

        It’s a different mindset. I could never have conceived of this list. At best, I take the models I want and make the toughest army I can with them.

        Maybe Mr. McDade has a collection of the fluffiest models possible, but going to a tourney he brought the toughest thing he could think of to win, because that was the goal of the day.

        I’m going to stick to the fault lying with game designers that don’t seem to think outside of their comfort zone

      • ZeeLobby

        The guys at GW don’t want to place any restriction on the game that might serve to limit sales. That’s the reality here. They may have convinced you that their just the friendly bloke down the street who didn’t know any better, but any good game designer would have looked at their structures for list building and would have seen ways to easily abuse.

        • Muninwing

          see, you bid on corrupt capitalism, i bid on incompetence.

          though it’s in part incompetence resulting from corrupt capitalism.

          they’ve underpaid their designers and treated them so poorly — as many industries do, but count on the desire to work in a limited field to keep workers in the game instead of realizing their qualifications as specialists.

          it’s no wonder they’ve had so much changeover. and much of their newer product reads like it was done by people with less nuanced understandings of such games. sometimes — like with some of the fluff, particularly the Warzone books and AoS’s start, it’s actually below any real sort of professional quality.

          • ZeeLobby

            Eh. I can totally sign on to your assessment though, haha. The biggest example of incompetence is anytime they release new models with horrible rules (Ogryn for example). You’d think they’d design them to be strong to promote sales, but sometimes their rules are just god-awful. It really does seem like their design team just randomly throws crap out there. Sadly it looks like they’re now OK with modifying core game rules to rotate sales.

          • Muninwing

            the underlying issue is the expansion model of the megacorp — it’s the constant need to do more and bigger to deliver more to shareholders and increase percentage of the market along with sales.

            it’s unsustainable.

            if they wanted to be a successful regular company, they would focus on delivering a quality game that set the standard in the industry. as well as doing the same for the models.

            but having to expand means having to release more, do more, and push tricks rather than solid numbers to reach those expansion goals. boosting sales by manipulating imbalances in rules, for instance. and while it’s obvious that they don’t do this deliberately all the time, the lessened quality of the game over multiple editions speaks for itself.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, going public was a real downer. They replaced their gaming idol with a golden one, lol.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Give this man a prize – spot on. Historically, GW don’t really design purposefully for the competitive scene. Its all about having fun and rolling dice. Evidently, GW are now attempting to take into consideration the competitive scene, in a more serious manner, with their focus on three ways to play mantra.

        Competitive play is not my bag, as you say, it seems rather boring and pointless. Yet for some its what they want to do, which is their choice. I don’t see any point in moaning about these kinds of list. It is what it is. It is the difference between the spirit of the game and the desire to win, spirit be dammed.

    • euansmith

      Come on, it is like picking scabs; irresistible.

    • NNextremNN

      Maybe you’re a masochist?

    • Taikishi

      Shame they didn’t link the Sisters list that won Hammer of Wrath almost two weeks ago. You’d probably not hate that list as much:

      Outrider
      Celestine + 2 Geminae
      Priest + 9 Arco-Flagellants in a Rhino w/ an extra storm bolter
      4 squads of 5 dominions each with 4 melta guns, each with a Repressor with an extra storm bolter
      1 squad of 9 seraphim with 4 inferno pistols

      Spearhead
      Company commander
      2 Manticores
      Heavy weapons team with 3 mortars
      2 Taurox Primes with gatling cannons and hot-shot volley guns

  • EvilCheesypoof

    They could make assassins unique, 1 of each type per army, that would kill this.

    Or character limits per detachment, a whole number of things really.

    • Crevab

      Yeah, used to be unique and more expensive. Change both and here we are

  • Rainthezangoose

    Well this was fun while it lasted. You think with with all the money they make GW could just get some people with half a brainstem to TRY to break the rules before releasing them.

    • Nathaniel Wright

      Not a single eyebrow raised by the judges.

      Hmmmm…

    • EvilCheesypoof

      GW has already shown that they’re willing to nerf abusive lists. They stopped Stormraven spam very quickly. Give them a chance to fix it.

      • Arcangelo Daniaux

        Yes, in a stupid way : Even without spamming it, I only have one home, I now cant use my stormraven to fast move some unit at end game stage. Plus they are going to give the objective secure to all troops, well done, now the rule that made marines and chaos marines able to take objectives in front of basicelly every horde army is useless, giant flying weapon arsenal that can stay stationnary cannot secure an objective and you are going to roll dice with a +1 to someone and then roll dice again to see if it’s not the looser who start.

        What they do is not adressing the problems, it making something, anything, even the stupidiest thing, to give the player the impression they care about this. If they cared about anything, they would not have any other errata than the one about points, or some units rules needing clarification. If you have to tweek/explain the core rules, it’s that your game is a bad game from the beginning and nothing is going to get it better.

        I’d even prefer continuing to play 7th edition, and I’m a Blood Angels players so I’ve no advantage doing it. I miss the good old days of 5th edition, with a balance betwee, shooty and close combat armies, and the old 3rd-4th edition rule for unique characters needing the opponents autorisation.

    • NNextremNN

      You mean like “oh hey you know those super rare elite assassins let’s put a limit of one per army on them”? Yeah that would have been pretty obvious.

      • euansmith

        “Draigo! I thought you were dead!”

        “Guilliman! I though you were dead!”

        “Celestine! I thought you were dead!”

        “Okay, who brought all these assassins?”

        “It looks like a damn skull-faced school trip!”

        “I thought that was you guys.”

        • KingAceNumber1

          Not to mention being anywhere near that many Culexes would completely ruin Celestine. She’s literally powered by Emperor-provided Warp energy.

          • bobrunnicles

            How dare you get your fluff in my cheese! 😉

          • euansmith

            No, no no, no, no! Warp Energy is EVIL! The Emperor’s Divine Glory is GOOOOOOD!

        • It’s “I thought you was dead”

          • euansmith

            Woo ja fink dey wuz talkin’ to? Snake Plissken? Deez folkz it proppa posh, in’it?

  • Graham O’Daniel

    House rules, tournament rules, or whatever you want to call them can be made to prevent this sort of shenanigans. Or, you know, just don’t play with these types of people.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      Yea the problem is at tournys you don’t really got a choice. Well apart from ruining the guys day by just giving him the win and ignoring him.

      • NNextremNN

        Hmm playing a conscript army with moving and measure each model individually sounds like a good comeback too XD … it’s just expensive and troublesome to make.

    • Mira Bella

      Or you know, GW could write a better rules. They get paid for that after all.

  • Sean Schoonmaker

    Wow. That is ugly. Clearly there are still a few bugs to work out.

    • Mira Bella

      Nah. It’s like allways the Players fault! /s

  • Anthony Combs

    I sense a Nerf bat incoming

  • Dan Iordanoiu

    Whoever came up with this list is a waste of oxygen. What a total scumbag. I can’t imagine anyone would enjoy a game like this.

  • LunaWolf

    All I see is proof that a game will never survive gamers. If someone is determined to game the system and make something impossible to play against, they’ll find a way.

    I’ve resigned myself to not ever understanding the mentality. I’ve still got a great community of reasonable people to play against, so we’ll just keep on actually enjoying the game.

    • Mira Bella

      That is just not true. There are certainly a lot of Tabletop games that get it right.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        It happens with every game. The difference is that other games are much more stringent about what you can take, which kind of balances it out. They also aggressively FAQ and Errata to curb problems.

  • John Garside

    Who gives a sh*t what douchey tournament players are playing?
    If that list turned up anywhere other than a tournament (and by the looks of it a poorly managed one too) he would get told to gtf out.
    This is the best 40k I’ve played since 4th edition, and if I can play a fun game with my buddies, that’s what I want from 40k.
    The majority of players don’t play like this, holding this up as an example of a broken game is batsh*t crazy

  • NNextremNN

    Wasn’t there something in the Space Marine Codex that if you choose a named Space Marine Character from a chapter he has to use the Chapters Warlord trait?

  • uatu13

    Wow, what a cheesy bastard. This guy should be ashamed of himself.

    • euansmith

      I think that, in the version of the game these guys play, this is a reasonable and balanced list. Not for the rest of us, but Power Gamers like to Power Game. As long as they keep it to themselves, the other players can just stare in wonder and laugh.

      • Commissar Molotov

        Remember, those are the same guys who “playtested” this version for us…

        May Malal have mercy on our souls.

      • Taikishi

        I really don’t understand why there’s a hate for tournament players. From my own experiences with old L5R and other games, this level of hate toward tournament lists exists in no other game, and it’s usually the tournament level of play that improves the game overall — in terms of improving players’ skill, improving list building and helping find what is broken so it gets fixed.

        Want to play a fluffy army? Don’t play in tournaments.
        Want to play in a narrative campaign? Don’t bring a tournament army.
        Teaching someone the game? Don’t play a tournament level list?
        Want to playtest your tournament army? At least tell your opponent “hey, I’m testing for this event. Would you mind playing against it and giving feedback?”
        Want to play in a tournament? Play the best army you can.

        • euansmith

          I don’t mind the Mighty List Buildin’Power Gamers; is they enjoy themselves, then that is fine.

          If the recent Nerf Bats are an indication, then the Crazy List Builders will finally start to help the wider community.

          They haven’t before, as GW has done everything it can to ignore the community/customers in the past.

          Now though, lists like the one above can serve to guide the rules away from such bizarre freaks of list writing.

          Prior to this, the Power Gamers have simple served as a reminder to other players that the 40k rules have never been written with anything more than friendly games in mind and have always been open to massive abuse.

          I think that we may be finally entering a golden age of 40k; with GW making an effort to come up with a reasonably tight set of rules, even if they are doing via a process of natural selection in the wild.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          I think the problem is that people copy tournament players. So variations of this list will soon be in the hands of beardy WAAC club players, and it starts an arms race that no-one benefits from in local amateur play. I’ve seen a couple of netlist players destroy a 40K community this way.

          Of course that isn’t the tournament players fault, but the coverage tournament lists get and the fact that some players are searching for a win button makes it happen.

    • Mira Bella

      Excuse me but who wrote this ruleset again?

  • benn grimm

    Yuck.

  • wibbling

    Just desperate exploitation of the rules for advantage without interest for the background, theme or character of the game. May as well play with a spreadsheet.

    • Karru

      Welcome to 8th edition. <3

    • euansmith

      I want Adeptus Munitorum to get a tabletop faction now; with Assault Auditors, Attack Lawyers and Filing Monkeys.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        don’t forget the Shock Accountants and Death Clerks.

  • zeno666

    Haha way to go!
    I bet Robo can just go online and get just as many assassins he want. So there are fluff reasons for this list.

    Go 8th edition, now with more playtesting

  • Ian Chisholm

    Know what stop Culexus Assassins? Flamers. I threw a pair of assassin’s at an opponent’s Magnus who was having a hard time getting rid of them. Then he pointed a pair of heavy flamer equivalents at one and erased it.

    • Karru

      Nice idea, except you know, they usually only have 8″ range and aren’t so effective against most armies. If you are within 8″ of a Culexus, you might kill one and then get massacred by Guilliman and Co.

  • Drpx

    “Death Stars are no more.”

    XD

  • Bonesaw1o1

    probably going to FAQ the character rules after this, just like they did with fliers

  • paxter

    hemlocks, n dark reapers can make short work out of this list.

    • KingAceNumber1

      Good thing I can take those in my AdMech =P

      • Mr.Gold

        use Kastellan Robots with Flamers & Fists – 12″ heavy flamers, yes please…

    • Defenestratus

      I’m beginning to realize that my hemlocks are the problem solvers of 8th edition. You can’t hide from them, you can’t avoid them, and they get the job done in 90% of the cases.

    • Mira Bella

      They obviously didn’t.

  • Randy Randalman

    People can whine about GW all they want, but GW has done everything to stay on top of things. Every time we get the fix/FAQ we want, a small contingent of players find something else to exploit. Consider that this was possible when planes were winning, then Guilliman, then Conscripts were in the lead. The Strategems encourage more traditional builds to accumulate CP’s, but until more codices come out, people will still abuse the detachments. This list was possible but wasn’t being used or winning. Why did it work now? Because it’s a direct response to the “leafblower” style Astra Militarum and Ultramarines Devastators bomb we’ve been seeing. These assassins all but invalidate that incredible weight of fire.

    However, this gets mauled by some pretty generic Orks lists.

    All that said, we’ve had completely different winners at every event thus far. The game is three months in and we’ve seen at least eight different winning lists.

    No one complaining here has even hinted at anything like this or complained about it until it showed up at a tournament they didn’t even play. So go ahead and declare you’re shelving your armies (which you’re not) and declare the game busted (which it isn’t).

    • ZeeLobby

      “I worship and love GW”.

      There. I saved you a ton of writing! You can just copy and paste that into every article.

      In reality the issue is that GW is fundamentally incapable of writing rules that may limit sales. I may have never seen this exact list coming, but this and the storm raven spam list both exist because of that failure. Any good game designer would have looked at their initially detachment options and said, “well if something was good enough to spam, there’s an option for that”. What’s sad is that they used to have two common mechanics that would help limit that, a single CAD and unit allowances. But how would they sell someone 6 storm Ravens otherwise.

      • KingAceNumber1

        We’re basically just playing unbound. It’s silly right now.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah, I mean sadly they just need to tighten the reigns, but until their sales droop who knows if they will.

    • Mira Bella

      Didn’t even read your comment. Just f&@k off.

  • CloakingDonkey

    So I’ve played 8 games now… I think I’m done. For the easy beer&pretzel GW experience I honestly prefer Age of Sigmar, it has more interesting armies on the board and plays much more fluid… and for more competitive games I would much rather play practically anything else, mostly Bolt Action… Guess it’s time to just play Beyond the Gates of Antares despite the more or less uninspired models. Now to find someone who’ll buy these Imperial Fists 😉

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Antares does not have uninspired models.

      • CloakingDonkey

        hmm. I find them a bit dull… Might check out some of the new plastic Freeborn.

  • ZeeLobby

    In reality the issue is that GW is fundamentally incapable of writing rules that may limit sales. I may have never seen this exact list coming, but this and the storm raven spam list both exist because of that failure. Any good game designer would have looked at their initially detachment options and said, “well if something was good enough to spam, there’s an option for that”. What’s sad is that they used to have two common mechanics that would help limit that, a single CAD and unit allowances. But how would they sell someone 6 storm Ravens otherwise.

    Copy and pasted because this is the real issue. Sadly instead of making changes where they need to, they’ll end up nerfing units and changing core game mechanic rules as their lax list creation rules are abused repeatedly throughout this edition and with every new release.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      I think the lax detachment rules were designed to make it so people didn’t freak out when formations disappeared.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah, I mean it was definitely to cater to those who went out and bought 6 wraithknights. As is always the problem, it’s tough to get the monster back into it’s cage, lol.

  • Brian Carraway

    A simple fix is to make each assassin type with the Unique keyword.

  • Big Grizzles

    It is the job of a competitive player to find ways to break the rules for an advantage. If something is too strong it gets fixed. We have seen this a whole bunch on the competitive side, most recently in the change to how flyers work in response to the storm raven spam. Its actually apart of a good healthy tournament meta. No one is forcing anyone to play inside the sandbox that is the tournament scene. It is entirely possible to play fun games of 8th completely outside of the realm of the tournament meta. And if 8th bums you out there are other games out there with all the same issues just different models.

    • Mira Bella

      Ok show me a list like that in Infinity or Bolt Action.
      How about Flames of War? How about Dropzone Commander or Malifaux?

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Historically, GW don’t really design purposefully for the competitive scene. Its fundamentally all about having fun and rolling dice. Evidently, GW are now attempting to take into consideration the competitive scene, in a more serious manner, with their focus on three ways to play mantra.

    Competitive play is not my bag, it seems rather boring and pointless. Yet for some its what they want to do, which is their choice. I don’t see any point in moaning about these kinds of list. It is what it is. It is the difference between the spirit of the game and the desire to win, spirit be dammed.

    • Mira Bella

      You are pretty alone with that opinion though. Most of the 250+ comments here “moan” about the possibility to create lists like this one.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        And they can moan away; its a free word. I don’t see the need. Yep these list are possible (presumably for the time being). Doesn’t mean the average casual gamer will to or has to go round using them; but again that would be their choice.

  • ToLiveIsToDie

    Strange to see a list that can be hard countered by Tyranids with spore mines. More accurately, biovores. They even do you a favor by making it hard to hit so you just get to place loads of single model unit spore mines all over the place. You’d essentially use their own strategy against them.
    I’d say it would be in poor taste to spam biovores but its clear the person who wrote this list has no taste so fair game in my book.

  • SundaySilence

    So this guy spent in excess of £300 to win a tournament with a w*nker list? Well done that guy.

    • E65

      Hopefully GW will change the Assassin entry for each type to say unique. Then the numbty will be stuck with them.

    • KingAceNumber1

      Key word being “A”, I’m sincerely hoping character rules get a hard fix very soon. I’m not trying to f*** with this at NOVA next week.

  • R. Fernandes

    Yeah from what I’m reading here just….change the rule to say “characters can’t screen other characters”. Or even specify that it HAS to be a troop unit within X inches. That would reinforce the fluff GW was going for: That a character is kind of lost among a swath of other soldiers.

    I know alot of folks are upset with 8th, and there’s a few problems with it, but it feels to me like those problems are kind of easy to solve with a dollop of common sense.

    • stinkoman

      the troop requirement for characters doesnt work for things like assassins. i really think they ought to limit characters.

      also, common sense doesn’t come into play when you are trying to game the system for a tourney. the only thing that fixes that are solid living rules with frequent updates.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      It really should only apply when there are non-character units in range.

  • Kami

    Maybe the character rule should only apply to non character units. so Guilliman can only hide behind tactical marines. not an army of culexus assassins

    • Karru

      Or they could just make it so that Assassin’s are “Unique” and make it so that only “Infantry-sized” characters can actually benefit from the rule. Things like Captains, Chaos Lords and so on, not units like Guilliman that towers over even the Primaris by a lot. All armies can be given “guard” units for those models that people can use if they want to have their “bigger” characters protected.

      • Kami

        they already have a rule for infantry sized models at 10 wounds. the assassins being unique is more about taking things away then it is helping the situation so it’s not a good idea either.

        • Karru

          You do realise that one of the rarest events in the 40k universe is to see more than one Assassin present on a single planet, let alone 4? Assassin’s are powerful, but they are not meant to be spammed like an army, they are not an army.

          Also, the problem is that many big models, like Guilliman, are purposefully placed at 9 wounds or less to make them stupidly powerful. Armies have “guard” units in place for a reason, they should be used.

          • KingAceNumber1

            “You do realise that one of the rarest events in the 40k universe is to see more than one Assassin present on a single planet, let alone 4”

            It happened once during the entire Horus Heresy, one assassin of each type, and it was an important enough event for BL to write a book about =P I honestly have no idea at all how Assassins are not unique.

          • Kami

            that’s why you make it so characters can’t screen characters. it’s a very simple solution to a very specific problem. it doesn’t require many changes and it doesn’t stop you from building an army how you want. it just makes the rule work as intended.

          • Karru

            High hitting power characters, like Guilliman and Daemon Princes for example, shouldn’t be able to hide behind units that aren’t “guard” units meant for that role. I find it very broken as you can just keep those mega buffs going until you are close enough to just charge the enemy lines with them and there is pretty much nothing your opponent can do.

            Snipers won’t work, because these characters aren’t squishy. They have high saves and high toughness, which just means your Snipers wish for nothing but 6’s in order to do anything to them.

          • Kami

            have you tried shooting the units next to him. they are the ones doing the damage.

          • Karru

            I have actually. The end result was my lines getting mauled when Guilliman reached my lines unharmed.

          • Kami

            try harder. guilliman and celestine for that matter are not that survivable when targeted. they don’t have a lot of wounds.

          • Karru

            Ah, so there is no problem with the army shown above, as you can just apply the “git gud” comment to it as well.

          • Kami

            dumb argument. the problem with the above was already addressed. you are complaining about something entirely different. honestly guilliman is just in that army for shenanigans. he could do so much more in an actual SM army.

          • Karru

            Said the person who said “Try harder” when I told them what Guilliman hiding behind the army did to me while I focused on the units protecting him.

          • Kami

            guilliman doesn’t make devestators any harder to kill.

          • Kami

            guilliman is very popular I suggest you find strategies to fight him or you will just continue to lose. it’s standard pro gamer attitude. focus on what you you can do. bad players blame the game. good players blame themselves.

          • Karru

            So once more we go back to the “there is nothing wrong with the list above as it can be countered with a very specific build”.

            Just bring Horde armies, they’ll decimate this list like nobodies business.

            I am trying to understand your logic, but it is all over the place. You say that there is a problem with Guilliman hiding behind an army of Culexus, but not when he is behind tacticals for example. Your point most likely being that Culexus are much harder to hit than Tacticals.

            At the same time, when I say that Guilliman and Co. shouldn’t even be able to hide behind something in the first place and instead be forced to use specific units to protect them or hop them from cover to cover, I am just blaming the game instead of my “lack of skill”.

            In one case, you are saying that there is a problem regarding hiding Characters and that it is the game’s fault, thus should be removed even if there is a clear counter to it.

            In the other case, you are saying that there isn’t a problem regarding hiding characters because it is the player’s fault for being bad at the game, because he doesn’t “properly counter it”.

            Want to explain the situation a bit better?

          • Kami

            it’s like you are trying to be bad at everything

          • Kami

            the rule is designed so that you can’t pick the general out of an army. but you shouldn’t be able to hide a general behind a random character.

            if guilliman can’t hide he loses his ability. he may be 10 feet but he isnt Magnus. he isnt a land raider. the argument you have is he shouldn’t be able to hide because you don’t like it.

            if you can’t kill tactical that’s your problem. the list above breajs tge rule. its an outlier that you claim proves how broken it is.

            but I don’t see why it’s ok for enemy predators or long range weapons just snipe all your generals out first turn.

            characters can’t hide behind characters. as long as there isnt a non character unit closer you can target them all. it fixes the problem easily.

            if you can’t understand it I can’t help to as you are blinded by your own biases.

          • Karru

            So instead you have those generals running unharmed towards your line, because you basically have to wipe out the entire of enemy’s army in three turns before you can do anything to them without Snipers. If you fail that, you have a full health whirlwind of death running amok amongst your lines.

            If you take a model like say Guilliman, you option for having Honor Guard. Guess what rule they have? Funnily enough, it is called “Honour Guard” which allows them to intercept a wound if a character takes it.

            There is literally no reason to use these units in 40k right now. They serve 0 purpose, because Characters can’t be targeted in the first place.

            Basically what you are doing right now is refusing to realise that there are actual units in place that are meant to be used for screening characters. Also, I am not saying that ALL Characters should be targetable, only the bigger ones, models that are much, much taller and stand out in the midst of chaos.

            What this means is that your basic characters, Captains, Chaplains, Chaos Lords, Farseers etc are not getting targeted without Snipers. If you take a bigger model, like say, a Daemon Prince, you better take a unit to guard it as well, a unit that was meant for the role.

            Also, the best fix still to the list above is making Assassins “Unique” AGAIN, mind you. I think the 5th edition Grey Knight Codex was the only one with Assassins that had them as not Unique.

            The core issue isn’t Characters screening Characters, it is literally massed Culexus screening Characters. Try running this type of list with only one of each Assassin, then come back and see if it is as broken because Characters can screen other Characters.

          • Kami

            that’s your lack of creativity.

            I’ve witnesses character screening with exalted flamers. it’s funny watching baneblade have to shoot every weapon at a single demon because the other 3 are so well hidden.

          • Kami

            honor guard are not screening units. they are bodyguards.
            I’m very smart I know what you are talking about. it’s a dumb idea.

          • Kami

            the game doesn’t consider anyone under 10 wounds a large target. so your whining is already implemented in the game. guilliman and celestine just happen to habe high damage output.

          • Git good

          • Thed Nome

            Even rarer is Girlyman… and Draigo… and Celestine

  • stinkoman

    So FFG is breaking into the table top war game genre. just in time! and with good IP.

    • Muninwing

      what’s their game?

      sorry, under a rock all summer…

      • Erich Schoenholtz

        Star Wars Legion

      • stinkoman

        Star Wars Rebellion

    • Provided they can do better than imperial vs rebels all the time yes. Runewars is a good game but suffers from that same issue.

  • Mike Delta

    So BOLS this list was NOT UNDEFEATED at WGC!
    This list went 4-1 losing to a 5-0 GSC list!

    My Ynnari list went 5-0 and just edged out the GSC in points, I came in first place and won best general lol!

    You should get your facts straight before publishing guys.

    • Jabberwokk

      The plot thickens.

      • Mike Delta

        No plot, just facts lol.

        • Jabberwokk

          But if I don’t enrage people about how broken everything is and how evil tournament players are how do i get clicks for my web content?

          • Mike Delta

            True lol!

            Just frustrating going 5-0 at a Major with Ynnari in 8th and seeing someone else mistakenly get credit.

          • Jabberwokk

            You clearly needed to net list harder you WAACtard.

            I post on Bols so I’m an expertpsychictacticalgenius and have no need to prove myself.

          • Mike Delta

            Right? I’m such a noob damnit! 😞

          • KingAceNumber1

            Git gud, sir.

    • benn grimm

      Shoddy journalism? On bols? Say it ain’t so! Congrats on the win btw.)

      • Mike Delta

        Shocking I know lol and thanks! 👍

    • Andrew Fisher

      Ynarri/Harlie psykers to get the harlies into melee?

  • Bradley Macduff

    why do we have WAAC players really? they make some of the stupidest stuff that cannot be fun to actually sit down and play as.

    • NNextremNN

      Why do we have casual players in a Tournament article? Didn’t you just came here so you can complain about that list?

      • Because these type of lists seep into casual play as well so casual players are teabagged by them regardless of if they are in a tournament or not.

        • Defenestratus

          This is something that I constantly bring up and the WAAC/Tournament crowd has no answer for.

          • The tournament crowd here answer the issue with “git gud”.

          • Taikishi

            I have an answer — don’t bring tournament level armies to your local group unless:
            * everyone is playing that way
            * you’re upfront that “hey, I want to test this army for (event name). Do you mind playing against it and helping me with feedback/changes?”

        • NNextremNN

          Don’t play against them?

          • Here is my situation in my area. I’ve been told other areas are similar.

            You can either play the game, and face that type of crap… or you can not play against them. To which you play yourself in your garage. Because thats how everyone in your area plays.

          • NNextremNN

            Well that’s sad not every game should always be super serious and waac. Anybody should have someone likely minded to play with. This goes for both casual and tournament players.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            It only takes a couple netlisting players to start an arms race that destroys communities, sadly.

  • Baldrick

    Rotflol, this is funny. Wow, what a list. ……..

  • Defenestratus

    Oh the tears of disappointment that flow from the ducts of naive babes who thought 8th was going to herald a great era of balanced tabletop gaming with no shenanigans are truly delicious.

    Miss 7th edition yet? At least you could shoot at death stars 😛

    • E65

      Balls

    • Karru

      Nope, still not missing 7th edition.

      The difference between this vs 7th edition death stars is that these ones can be actually killed reasonably. The entire point of 7th edition Death Stars were that you couldn’t kill them mathematically during an average game.

      • Defenestratus

        …because being forced to shoot the closest model – that you can only hit on 6’s, is “actually killed reasonably”.

        If you’d take a moment to take off your rose-colored glasses – you’d see that this kind of blatant rules abuse is no different than the kind of crap that these “competitive” jokers did for 7th edition… and 6th edition, and 5th edition… and every edition going back as far as I’ve played.

        To assume that 8th would be any different was naive and misguided.

        • Jabberwokk

          As Tyranid player: hell to the no.

          I’ll deal with this which is infinity more solvable than all the depressing hells of the last 3 editions, each more progressively degrading then the last.

          From where I stand 8th is far and above 7th warts and all.

          • Defenestratus

            Which is funny, because I would rather deal with the unkillable yet fluffy things in 7th infinitely more than this boring menagerie of stupidity was have in 8th.

            Different folks different strokes I suppose. I just love seeing the unrealistic expectations of 8th getting smashed every day.

          • Karru

            Wait, hold on a moment. You considered Dark Angels/Space Wolves Wolfstar fluffy? Okay then.

          • Defenestratus

            I never played that list – because I don’t play in tournaments.

            I played plenty of Ultramarine formations though and that was rather fluffy – and tough.

            And Dark Angels and SW working together is a bit more easy to swallow than 11 assassins.

            Horus himself only warranted 4 😛

          • Jabberwokk

            My expectations were tyranids will still be garbage. They are actually playable and competitive. So mine were exceeded.

            Your version of fluffy….I’m saving your post for posterity so the next person who tells me that fluff players hate overpowered ‘WAACtard’ lists I’m going to show them your post where your ok with it so long as it is “fluffy”.

            whatever that means to whomever it means to.

            “Unkillable yet fluffy”….there’s a meme here…..This is patently ridiculous…Like wow….i can’t even…..everything i could have wanted and you just give it to me….You made my whole day have a like.

          • Thed Nome

            Exactly how was wolfriders and Black Knights “fluffy”?

        • Mike Delta

          My list would rofl stomp this list lol.

          60+ Str5 Ap-2 W2 shots hitting Culexus’s on 3+…

          • Defenestratus

            Are we Eldar players allowed to come out of the closet yet? I thought we were still persona non-grata in LGS the world over because a-hole WAAC/tournament players spammed Wave serpents at one point.

            Hell, I remember getting told I was a power gamer because I played Eldar back when it was the swooping hawk exarch with a power sword that was the issue.

          • Mike Delta

            My Eldar are out and dont care if the imperial players like it or not lol!

            2x GTs in 8th with my Ynnari and I’m 10-0 coming in first place at both including WGC. 😜

          • Bootneck

            Why would you hit a cullexus on 3’s?

          • Mike Delta

            Dark Reapers hit everything on 3s, even Culexus’s.

          • Bootneck

            Which rule takes precedent. . . I think you’ll find things like this GW normally goes down the route of player roll-offs – when the immovable object meets the unstoppable force.

            As both skills contradict one another, and until there’s an official errata that is how I would play it to be fair to both parties.

          • Bootneck

            Plus I don’t think a shooty heavy list would do very well against the aforementioned article list, if they rolled first you’d be dead inside the first turn or two from Eversor and Calidus charges.

          • Thed Nome

            17 units vs Ynnari 13 units… ynarri most likely going 1st

          • Thed Nome

            Is in FAQ they hit cullexes on 3+

          • Thed Nome

            Yes… ynnari is also not fluffy… death cult Eldar… so sad

        • Karru

          So you are saying that, instead of having the ability to for example using Snipers, shoot the backfield Librarians buffing these units, it is more “reasonable” to shoot everything to a unit that has a 2++ rerollable save that can’t be targeted by templates/blasts and is also hit on 6’s only, zooms across the table and destroys one to two units a turn?

          Gotcha.

          • Defenestratus

            My Str D never had an issue with those units honestly.

            But then I was the powergamer for bringing str D to the table….

          • Bootneck

            The trouble with most D in those situations was that you could never target the death-star units as they were invisible. There were some no blast D weapons but most had blast templates.

          • Defenestratus

            I never played against an inivisble death start, just one that had a rerollable 2++ save.

            Again, I don’t play against WAAC people usually so I never really had a problem with 7th.

          • Bootneck

            I guess its all down to personal experiences, i’ve played the 2++ rerollable deathstars and the invisable ones.

            If they managed to pull invisibility on then your pretty much screwed.

            I’ve put invisibility on my Warhound in some games, sometimes it makes a big difference and other times it never paid off. Felt pretty bad when it happened too!

          • Thed Nome

            If you don’t play against WAAC then you don’t have to worry about this list either

        • Karru

          You seemed to miss my point anyway. If I was given the choice, I would always take 8th over 7th any day, 10 out of 10 times. Even in casual play, 7th was so boringly broken that you had to forcefully gimp yourself if you played any of the top tier armies.

          At least in 8th I can play my Space Marines and Eldar without feeling like utter sh*t towards my opponent when I table them 10th time in a row because they happened to play Tyranids or Orks, because at least now I know they have options that can make them work.

          • KingAceNumber1

            Defenestratus misses every point intentionally if it gives him a chance to sh*t on tournament play/players. Blocked him a long time ago, I can only imagine what he’s saying.

          • Defenestratus

            I love you 🙂

          • Defenestratus

            It’s not that I miss points intentionally, it’s just that I don’t agree with the points that competitive players bring up because usually they’re nonsense.

          • Defenestratus

            I played only Eldar in 7th. I used my WK once because I know that people thought they were OP’d and I would rather have a good time with my opponent. Plus I had Eldar units that are much more offensive than the WK’s were if I really wanted to be TFG.

            So yes, I purposely “gimped” my list in that regard – but I don’t usually make lists that focus on winning – I make lists that are fun to play and look cool on the table top.

          • Karru

            And so do I, the only problem is that I happen to enjoy the looks of certain models, such as the Imperial Knight which I liked to take with my Guard army. Played against a CSM player with it once, he managed to kill 3 models from my Infantry army. I wiped him on turn 3.

          • Defenestratus

            This was in 8th or 7th?

            Because as far as I can tell, tabling on turn 3 happens a lot more in 8th than it ever did in 7th (anecdotal evidence I’ll grant you, but it seems to be corroborated by others’ experiences)

          • Karru

            This was 7th. My Knight was able to fight armies by himself while basically ignoring most damage fired at it. All I had to do really is smack him right in the middle of my army so that no one could Pod next to him and no one would dare to approach my frontline because they would get charged by the Knight.

            In 8th, most of my games end on Turn 5-6 through objectives or one player conceding due to not being able to grab objectives at that point. Basically, I get to play the game past turn 3 most of the time now.

          • Defenestratus

            My experience, in the non-competitive scene, seems to be opposite yours – but we’re just two joes at a bar.

          • Thed Nome

            Well… if people are getting tabled in three… that usually means mismatch to start… a lot of people are still trying to play old units and old styles… they will get tabled in 3… so far most of my games I am seeing that as players understand their units they are getting better… also I expect 2500 and up will be the new play level as frankly 2000 pts is smaller than 7th so games are faster because of that more often

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            you have to gimp your army with 8th too for a fair game against most armies. Nothing has changed.

          • Karru

            Not in my experience. My standard list I used in 7th are very balanaced, well, except maybe my Guard army, but everything else seems nice and fun to play.

            I don’t have to reduce my army to absolute uselessness in order to avoid wiping my opponent. I can play by standard lists without the fear that my opponent will get rofl stomped each game because he happened to choose the wrong army to play.

  • BaneMate

    Correct me if im wrong but he shouldnt be able to take that warlord trait. Because Girlyman is a named Ultramarine character he’s meant to have the ultramarine warlord trait. Thats just my interpretation of the codex

    • ccrraazzyyman

      That’s how it is now, not how it was played at Wargamescon. At WGC the new codex was not allowed because it came out too soon to the event

  • I_am_Alpharius

    I would put forward the thing to would be to add a caveat similar to what GW did to units with the keyword “fly”. The rules could just say that units with the keyword “character” with less than “x” (I was thing 5 or 6) amount of starting wounds, can’t hold or contest objectives.

  • Keith Wilson

    the person who made this should be beaten in public

  • KingAceNumber1

    Characters guarding characters is BS. The only real rule change that’s needed to fix this is adding in a specific clause stopping characters from blocking other characters.

    • DoctorBored

      This is true, and the rules already are pointing in that direction. There are specific characters, HQ and Elites, that are designed to take hits for bigger characters, like Chapter Veterans and Company Champions and the like. These characters that are designed to take hits for other characters should be the only ones that can do so. If the only thing between your huge mob army of guardsman is one assassin to stop you from shooting at the towering figure of Guilliman, then you should be able to shoot at Guilliman.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    This wouldn’t be so ludicrous if he was using a Knight, a Spartan or a Mastodon to tank all those shooting attacks.

  • Taikishi

    I’m actually wondering how this army legally deploys. I thought the rules for 8th state you have to deploy at least half of your units during deployment. If all six Cullexus and all three Eversors are arriving at the end of your turn 1 movement, that’s 9 units.

    9/17 > 50%

    I guess it’s hampering one of the Cullexus to have it start on the board? Or is it deploying all the Cullexus and infiltrating the Eversors and Vindicares?

    • Bootneck

      There nothing stopping them deploying the minimum amount of units and just foot slogging it.

    • Thed Nome

      Probably deploy Gman and the vindicates… the librarian and culexus

  • Sorien

    I’ve played against a similar but no where near as optimized assassin list, and had a lot of fun. Luckily I was playing gunline Orks so the 6+ to hit the Culexus wasn’t a big deal, and the boys were still able to get the +1 to hit from the waggh! banner. Only reason I lost is because we both kept drawing objectives on his side of the table.

  • Defenestratus

    Maybe if they listened to this guy they would have been able to take out Horus.

    They only sent 4 after him.

  • Kevin Sechrest

    I think it’s easy to fix
    1) Modification 1. Allow targeting of characters farther away at -1 to hit.
    2) Modification 2. Change the character rule to only affect unique characters ( my personal choice).

    • Bootneck

      I doubt GW would errata the rules that drastically – maybe in 9th ed.

    • Taikishi

      Eh. Because characters can’t join units anymore, I see no harm with the rules that permit units/vehicles/MCs to screen characters from fire. The problem with this list is characters screening characters.

      The easier fix is to let characters be shot if the unit in front of them is a character and has an equal or fewer model count — thus Celestine and her Geminae or a similar unit can tank for a single character, but an assassin can’t tank for a librarian or Celestine and her Geminae.

    • Thed Nome

      I play a few assassins in my army… and actually did not realize they WERE characters until this article… since they were always deepstriking in and charging it never really mattered 🙊🙊🙊

  • Jaidyn

    Exactly why i dont go to tournaments … that list is total bs

  • Sure

    If you don’t play in highly competitive tournaments and refuse to play friendly matches against unfriendly lists like this then 8th is pretty good. Going to highly competitive tournaments guarantees you’re going to see breadstick lists – it’s the essence of tournament play. If you don’t like it just don’t play the game that way – and I’m a total beer and pretzels/fluffy army player.

  • J Mad

    Culexus Assassins are weak to flamers and auto hits. This is just another rock, paper, scissor army.

    Its not op, it just didnt have counters this tournament.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      But few people will take flamers as they are not that amazing.

    • Thed Nome

      It did… it went 4-1 two lists went 5-0 the same tourney

  • Jared McWilliams

    List seems very not tac, it’s rock paper scissors. It does good against high cost low model count armies that focus on few high Street high damage attacks. Anything with volume fire or attacks that has rerolls or +1 to hit will take out most of the culexus turn 1 or 2.

    The WS6/BS6 is not as tough as last edition due to how modifiers are applied. You still get any bonuses to hit in 8th. It takes only 48 shots / attacks with a +1 to hit or reroll that are S4 to kill a culexus. That’s 1 player turn of assault from 16 Orks, GSC, or any horde army.

    This army is also super weak to any reinforcements that an drop in behind the culexus, the only way this got top list is by being lucky in pairings.

  • Bigalmoney666

    GW makes assassins unique characters in 3…2…1…

    • Bootneck

      But how could GW explain that when there is many stories whereby more than one assassin works together to attempt kill off someone.

      Horus. . .

      • Bigalmoney666

        Limit them just for matched play? Like psychic powers.

      • Crevab

        Because they were unique for decades? Because balancing based on “it happened once to the greatest threat ever” is terrible?

  • Bob Smith

    This could be fixed pretty easily. Just change the rule to “You may not target enemy characters if there are enemy non-character models that are closer and in line of site.”

  • Agge_P

    This is stupid. Guess some people just doesn’t like when others have fun. This makes people stop playing 40k.

  • Tiernoc

    I was talking to a local T.O. about the whole character-targeting issue just yesterday. I think that GW is going to have to make a change to targeting characters (perhaps inside 12″ no protection, or within 12″ you can target any character if there are *ONLY* characters in range?) because as things stand currently the character targeting rule is easily abused to create horrific setups.

    I think it’s fair to say that the Rules as Intended for character targeting was to prevent sniping heroes out of a blob of infantry, but if you don’t have that infantry as protection perhaps you don’t need the benefits.

  • puma713

    Easy fix: remove “Character” from assassins.

    • OldHat

      Or, just make them “Unique” like they used to be. Easy and fluffy.

  • AlphariusOmegon

    Matt ward approves!

  • Brettila

    By far, barring no exceptions, this is the worst list I have seen in 22 years of playing this game.

  • Deathwing

    3 things to note:
    This list puts the min-maxing of the days of yore to shame
    This list would not be fun in any way shape or form to play against, so you have violated the number 1 golden rule.
    On a personal note this is the most broken craptastic list Ive ever seen. Don’t get me wrong, a list like this NEEDED to win a major tournament so someone in GW might take note and unjack the horrible issues with the rules that even allow this douchbagery to occur in the first place, but that does not factor into the fact that the player in question is well deserving of a free field goal kick to the crown jewels by every one of his opponents.

    • Deathwing

      Assassins should return to 0-1, unless you take a specific unit called the execution force, also 0-1, comprised of 1 assassin from each clade, and pointed appropriately to make it a viable but not overpowered choice.

    • Daniel Reynolds

      I would play against this list, and I would have fun trying to crack it. As we already know, despite what BoLs says, it’s not undefeatable. If you look at a list like this and think there is no way to win against it before you even play it, then you are already halfway to losing.

  • johnduesenberry

    There are a lot of complaints here that are aimed at “netlists” or broken armies. Thing is you are always going to have that in any game that differentiates even slightly. Even White wins more often than black in Chess.
    These lists will be nerfed at some point. We already know that objective secured is on it’s way back. Eldar will make a triumphant return to the game.
    Shortly after that we will likely see battle brothers return and perhaps eventually formations. With each new iteration there will be new changes.There are a lot of things that I didn’t like when I first played, but I kept playing and now I am enjoying it more and more.

  • Thed Nome

    1) half your army by UNITS( not points) must deploy
    2) 17 drops does not mean he is always going 2nd just means he probably will ( lower drops get +1 on roll to see who goes first… and their is always SEIZING the initiative

  • This Dave

    Quite honestly if someone set that army down on one of my local tables they would get punched in the face. I’m also not sure why this is called the Unstoppable List when he went 4-1, so obviously it got stopped at least once.

  • Bert Miller

    How about changing the rules on shooting at characters? Maybe make it so that only non-characters can screen for characters. You still can’t shoot through a tactical squad or vehicle or anything BUT it stops Callidus abuse where they’re literally the only thing you can shoot at.