Chaos Space Marines: Codex Detailed Review

The new Chaos Space marines dex gives you exactly what you’d expect from them: RAW POWER.

The Codex train has left the station and the next stop is downtown Chaos! The Chaos Space Marines are a long suffering but iconic faction in the 40k universe. From the days of the legendary (but also legendarily unbalanced) 3.5 Chaos Dex, it has been a steady decline for the Traitor Legions. Their 5th ed dex was one of the best performing armies the game has ever seen in terms of tournament performance, but sucked a lot of the flavor out of what made Chaos Space Marines so cool. And when the 6th ed CSM dex came…well, better to leave the past in the past.

But now, well, the times have changed. What we saw in Traitor legions at the end of 7th was a good indicator of what to expect in 8th. Legion traits, characterful and powerful stratagems, warlord traits, artifacts, points and stat adjustments and more are here. For the first time in a long time I feel that Chaos Space Marines have what the fluff always indicated they did: POWER. Power at the expense of their humanity, power at the expense of the coordination of loyalist Marines but hey, that’s why you sell your soul to the Dark Gods, right?! And that is what you get.

CSM Basics

The Chaos Space Marine codex has a lot going for it. First of all, you get your Legion traits which go in the Faction Keyword in <brackets> (which, are we starting to see a pattern, here?). These kick in–exactly as with Space Marines–when every model in a detachment shares that Faction Keyword. There are a few exceptions for units that float around like Fabius and the Fallen which you can take while retaining your Legion Traits. These apply to all Bikers, Infantry and Dreadnoughts. Also, your troops in these detachments gain the Despoilers of the Galaxy rule, giving them “ObSec” as we found in the Space Marines Codex overview. This is huge and when combined with the Stratagems (and the Chaos stratagems are truly AWESOME!) incentivizes you to take troops. Whether that be in the form of hordes of Cultists, Chaos Space Marines or cult Marines in a legion list with access to them, I find myself gravitating to at least one battalion in every chaos list I bring. I really can’t stress enough how amazing those Chaos stratagems are, and we will dig into them further down.

On top of this, Chaos Space Marines got marks of chaos, a slew of new Psychic Powers including the meta changing Death Hex! Suffice it to say, if you are a CSM player, you are going to be stoked.

Legion Traits:

  • Black Legion: +1 Leadership and can advance and treat Rapid Fire weapons as assault weapons.
  • Iron Warriors: Ignores cover and reroll wounds vs. buildings.
    • These Legion traits, much like their arch-enemies the Imperial Fists, are leaving some players feeling flat but cover is quite good and it essentially gives you an additional -1 AP vs. anything benefiting from it.
  • Renegade Chapters: Advance and charge.
    • BOOM! This is an awesome ability and gives you huge range.
  • World Eaters: +1 attack on the charge.
    • Good lawd! If you thought Berzerkers were already blenders…..
  • Night Lords: -1 to enemy leadership for each Night Lords unit with the trait within 6″ up to a -3.
    • Sooo good. So, so good! I have been using these to just brutal effect against my opponents. 
  • Emperor’s Children: Always trike first in melee.
  • Alpha Legion: -1 to hit for units with the trait more than 12″ away.
    • If you’ve played against Raven Guard, you know how damn good this trait is!
  • Word Bearers: re-roll failed morale checks.
    • While certainly not exciting, it is quite useful.

Notable Changes

GW has taken a very serious approach to balancing the game and we’ve already seen these rolling out quickly. Some in this book help a ton!

  • Exalted Champion: Chaos’ answer to the Space Marine lieutenant…and a resounding answer at that! This new model in the CSM lineup is incredible. He hits hard himself and has access to a plethora of options but his main purpose is a 6″ reroll failed wound roll aura in melee. Holy smokes, this is terribly powerful! This model will be seen in many a Chaos list.
  • Brimstone Horrors: these little buggers cause a lot of angst and for good reason. They were too cheap and too tough. Well, they went up in points to 3 per base. They also cannot do D3 damage Smites unless there are 10 Pink Horrors in the unit, which if below this, they only do 1 Mortal Wound. They’re still awfully powerful but this helps to mitigate them quite a bit. And yes, these do override the index. As in Age of Sigmar, you use the newest version of any datasheet.
  • Possessed: 2 wounds, you say? Ohhh my! This makes these bad boys much more appealing and with all of the various combinations you can apply to them via Marks, legion traits, etc. they are quite good now.
  • Daemons: all went down in points (apart from Brims and Blues) making them VERY appealing. Bloodletters particularly….wow. I summon in a unit of 30 (now only needing a summoning roll of a 12) and they are extra choppy. They may be too cheap, actually as not much can withstand their assault.
  • Obliterators: are vastly improved. They may not be what they were in ye old days, but they now are a potent unit to bring in from reserves and unleash hell on your opponent and resilient enough to hang around after the initial strike.
  • Khorne Lord of Skulls: saw a massive points reduction! This big guy is even more potent now than he was.
  • Wargear: As with Space Marines, many wargear items went down in cost such as the Power Fist which now weighs in at a very reasonable 12pts.


Stratagems

This is seriously where the magic happens in this book. Space Marines also got some killer stratagems but for my money, Chaos really cleans up, here. There are a lot to get excited about but here are a few of my favorites!

  • Veterans of the Long War: +1 to wound for the shooting or fight phase for an Infantry or Biker unit.
    • This is a bombshell of a stratagem. When used on the right unit and in conjunction with other abilities such as Prescience and/or Death Hex, you will simply erase your target.
  • Fury of Khorne: Have your Khorne unit attack again in the fight phase.
    • This is characterful and just brutally powerful. Berzerkers attacking for a 3rd time? Khorne Terminators attacking again? Wow. The World Eaters Legion trait of +1 attack lasts the entire phase as does Veterans of the Long War above, meaning you can have a supercharged melee unit for a phase!
  • Endless Caophony: Slaneesh units may shoot for a second time in the shooting phase.
    • As above, this is just punishing! Slaanesh Terminators dropping down and unloading with 10 combi-weapons twice is just crushingly powerful. And, remember, Veterans of the Long War above, lasts the entire phase, so you’d get +1 to wound twice!
  • Tide of Traitors: Remove a unit of Cultists from the table at the end of your movement phase and return them to the game within 6″ of a table edge and 9″ away from enemy units at full strength.
    • By Khorne’s nuts this is amazing! So long as even a single Cultist survives, you can bring the entire unit back on to the table to snag an objective and win the game! And remember, replenishing a unit means you don’t have to pay points for the models and with ObSec, you can easily seal victory with this ability.
  • Scorn of Sorcery: World Eaters can stop a psychic powers on a 4+.
    • This can turn the tide of battle as many list strategies hinge on getting that one, critical psychic power off to win the game. And of course, you can reroll this die with another command point if the first attempt fails.
  • Forward Operatives: Alpha Legion units may be set up anywhere on the table 9″ away from enemy units before the first battle round begins.
  • Dark Pact: Word Bearers can reroll any of the dice when attempting to summon and ignore mortal wounds in the attempt.
    • This makes summoning almost a guarantee and with no risk of taking any damage. Very, very good for lists that hinge around bringing a unit of daemons into play when they want them to.

New Psychic Powers

Chaos in my opinion have the best school of psychic powers to choose from. Movement powers, buffs, debuffs and damage output. They do it all. As if Prescience and Warp Time weren’t enough, they got the new all-star power:

Death Hex. Death Hex is a 12″ range power that removes the target unit’s invulnerable save until the start of your next psychic phase.

WOW. This makes Null Zone pale in comparison. The amount of uses are crazy but what it does is remove variability from cracking truly tough targets. Things like Roboute, Imperial Knights, Brimstones, Harlequins, Magnus (if you can get the power off), etc. just melt when you hit them with Death Hex. It is a truly meta changing power and makes Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes even more appealing. Now, Death Hex is warp charge 8, so it is certainly is not a certainty to go off but when it does: my goodness.

Diabolic Strength is fun to make powerful Chaos melee characters even better and Gift of Chaos can one shot characters if you can get in range (and remember, psychic powers can target any unit in range even if they are Characters unless they specify otherwise).  The God specific powers are also incredible. Weaver of Fates for Tzeentch gives you +1 to your invul save (Magnus, anyone?!), and a 5+ FnP style save for Slaanesh units with Delightful Agonies. Generally, Chaos players are spoiled for choice in the psychic department.

Warlord Traits

I probably sound like a broken record at this point but again, Chaos gets a ton of awesome options here. Below are some of my favorite.

  • Lord of Terror: Opponent rolls an extra dice when taking morale checks and keeps the highest result.
    • BRUTAL! I use this trait in my Night Lords army and it is devastatingly powerful. My hands down favorite Warlord Trait.
  • Flames of Spite: Wound rolls for your Warlord of a 6+ in melee do a Mortal Wound in addition to any other damage.
  • Cold and Bitter: Iron Warriors units within 6″ of your Warlord automatically pass morale tests.
    • This is incredibly good. Morale becomes more a part of the game as we go, and this power totally blocks the negative effects of it. Especially good with Cultists! 
  • I am Alpharius: If your Warlord is slain, pick a new Warlord until every character in your army is dead. All of them get a random Warlord trait from the main Chaos table. Your opponent only gets points for slaying the Warlord if they kill all of your characters!
    • Beyond being characterful, this is seriously good as denying Slay the Warlord to your opponent can win you the game.

Artefacts

Chaos also boasts a selection of very cool and useful Artefacts. As with Space Marines, these are “free”, replacing an existing item or being added to an eligible model’s wargear. You can take one unless you spend CP for 1-2 more items. Special characters cannot take them. Here are a few of my favorites!

  • Talisman of Burning Blood: Khorne model can advance and charge, and reroll failed charges.
  • The Cursed Crozius: Replaces the Power Maul of a Word Bearers model. +2 strength, Ap-2, 3 Damage. Rerolls failed wound rolls vs. Imperium faction units.
  • Fleshmetal Exoskeleton: Iron Warriors character gets a 2+ save and regenerates 1 wound a turn.
    • Slap this bad boy on a Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord and you’ve get a big boost in durability.
  • Brass Collar of Bhorgaster: Khorne model gains the ability to Deny the Witch and if he does so, the enemy psyker suffers Perils.
  • Claws of the Black Hunt: Night Lords character, replaces the model’s Lightening Claws. Strength +1, AP -3, D3 damage, +1 attack, reroll failed wound rolls.
    • These are savage melee weapons, and turns a Chaos Lord into a blender!

A Sample Army

There are so many combos in this Codex it is hard to know where to begin. You have the ability to create powerful, themed armies using the models you want to use, not only those you feel like you have to use. So, instead of trying to explain it all, here’s my latest iteration of Night Lords list. I have kept the core of Lord, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, 3 Raptors, Terminators and Chaos Space Marines the entire time, but I am experimenting with how to spend the last 160ish points.

Unit Force Org Cost # Total Weapons Cost # Total Total Notes
Outrider Night Lords       Command Points 1
Lord with Jump Pack HQ 93 1 93 Lightening Claws 12 1 12 Claws of the Black Hunt, Mark of Khorne
Berzerkers Elites 16 10 160 Chain Axe 1 9 9
0 Power Sword 4 1 4
0 Icon of Wrath 10 1 10
Chaos Rhino Transport 70 1 70 Combi Bolter 2 1 2
Chaos Terminators Elites 31 10 310 Lightening Claw 8 10 80  Mark of Slaanesh
0 Combi-Plasma 15 10 150
Raptors Fast Attack 17 5 85 Plasma Gun 13 2 26  Mark of Slaanesh
0 Combi-Plasma 15 1 15
Raptors Fast Attack 17 5 85 Melta Gun 17 2 34  Mark of Slaanesh
0 Combi-Melta 19 1 19
Raptors Fast Attack 17 5 85 Melta Gun 17 2 34  Mark of Slaanesh
Combi-Melta 19 1 19
Battalion Night Lords       Command Points 3
Daemon Prince with Wings HQ 170 1 170 Malefic Talons 10 1 10
Sorcerer with Jump Pack HQ 114 1 114 Force Axe 16 1 16  Mark of Slaanesh
Chaos Space Marines Troops 13 5 65 Flamer 9 1 9
Combi-Flamer 11 1 11
Chaos Space Marines Troops 13 5 65 Flamer 9 1 9
Combi-Flamer 11 1 11
Chaos Rhino Transport 70 1 70 Combi Bolter 2 1 2
Cultists Troops 4 10 40 0
Havocs Heavy 13 5 65 Auto-Cannon 20 2 40  Mark of Slaanesh
Command Points 0
0 0
Totals     65 1477       522 1999  
Command Points: 7       Detachments: 2

So the core of the army is the hard hitting units coming in from reserves. The Terminator bomb is the hammer of the army. You drop them down supported by the Lord, Sorcerer and the Daemon prince who is hopefully in position to fly forward and support them. You cast Warptime and prescience on them. If possible, the Daemon prince casts Prescience as it has an 18″ range, and the Sorcerer casts Warptime as he should be directly behind them when you come in. If needed, the Sorcerer also casts Death Hex on a critical unit. Baring this, you can give the Sorcerer Delightful Agonies and further boost the Terminator’s defense.

The Terminators should now be just over 4″ away from the enemy. With Prescience on them they cannot overheat shooting at targets that don’t have a -1 to hit or what have you, so overcharge away! You use the Veterans of the Long War stratagem on them for +1 to wound (if needed) and double tap your overcharged Combi-Plasma. With the Jump Pack Lord also behind them giving them rerolls 1’s to hit (and they’re now hitting on a 2+), and +1 to wound, they tend to melt their target. Combined with Death Hex, I have one-shotted a Knight with this combo before (as overcharged, with VotLW they wound them on a 3+!). At the end of the shooting phase, for laughs, pop the Endless Cacophony stratagem and shoot them again; still benefiting from all of their buffs, lol. Even things like Conscript screens evaporate to this as you pump out 40 Plasma Gun shots from a single unit in a single shooting phase.

Then, you clean up targets with your Raptors who should also be benefiting from the Lord’s reroll aura. Berzerkers and DP are coming up in wave two and CSMs in their Rhino (both units ride in the same Rhino) hunt objectives.

In the charge phase, your Terminator Bomb then assaults a unit as well (which they typically make the charge due to being so close) and with your Lightening Claws plus another application of the Veterans of the Long War Stratagem (you can use it in both phases) and rerolls to wound, possibly still rerolling 1’s to hit if you are in range of the Lord and still hitting on 2’s thanks to Prescience, they shred their target more often than not. It is savagery at its finest!

Then the magic really starts to happen as your opponent starts taking morale checks with stacked negatives due to the Night Lords legion traits. If your Lord is in range with the Lord of Terror trait, units will just melt away when they have a static -4+ to their morale check. It’s brutal. This is all in one turn as well, mind you!

In their turn, if they disengage the Terminators to shoot at them, pop the In Midnight Clad stratagem for a -1 to hit on them to increase their durability and save 1-2 CP to control their morale as they will get hit with everything your opponent has to throw at them. Luckily, they’re Terminators and not easy to destroy!

 

The Terminators will continue to cause disruption but typically will get worn down. Lucky for you, wave two consists of 3 characters, Berzerkers, and Raptors! Once all of those units get stuck in, the Night Lords morale debuff really starts to punish your opponent. Raptors also have a -1 Ld debuff and you can give one of them the Mark of Nurgle and the Icon of Despair for another -1. Consider also a Decimator Engine with Butcher Cannons for additional leadership debuffs. If you need to, you can also kit your Sorcerer up to be a character assassin with psychic powers to snipe them out (as again, psychic powers target any unit in range and LoS unless they state otherwise).

The havocs hold your home objective and provide decent fire-support. You could swap the two Autocannons for 4 Heavy Bolters for more Dakka, I just use them because I have them painted up and the look cool =)

In play-testing, I have had tremendous success with this list. By no means is it unbeatable, but the potential for devastating damage output is high. It has a lot of failure points, too. If you fail to get some of your psychic powers off, the strategy can fall flat. If you play against an army with loads of deep strikers also and they go second, it can be bad. If your opponent has infiltrators to push back your deep strike strategies, it can muck you up, too. But, the list is fun, effective and uses some of my all time favorite models! I’m considering dropping the Havocs for more Cultists but it’s a tough choice with no morale control on them. But, it is nice to have buffer units to keep the enemy off of my backfield units.

This is just one way to play Chaos, too. The book is loaded to the gills with lists and combos like this for CSM players of all varieties. It is truly a great time to be a Chaos player!

~What CSM combos are you all seeing?

 

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secondhandhsop
  • Big Fat Fred

    Got to admit, I’m excited!!

  • Xodis

    Really cant wait to get this one. I have a very large Black Legion Army I need to organize, and better separate into mini factions so I can utilize all this book can offer.

  • KingAceNumber1

    Ksons benefit massively from both the psychic powers and the strategems. VotLW combined with Inferno Bolters is nuts, letting Rubrics and Scarab Occult deal with tanks and monsters fairly easily. Drop some scarabs in, prescience them, and then boost them with VotLW and watch things disappear.

  • Nyyppä

    How is the ability to reroll morale useful? It’s less useful than the ability to combat squad marines and that right there is straight up pointless.

    • Xodis

      Not really. Combat squad a group of 10, putting the special weapons with the guys that will be moving around and leaving 5 regular near useless marines on a point that wont ever be attacked.

      As for rerolling Morale….Im not going to say its amazing or even “good”…but when its needed, it could be very useful. Imagine how many Cultists this could save. Rolling a 5/6 on a morale check for Cultists could cost you an easy 50 points. You want that to happen every turn someone pops off a couple shots towards them?

      • Nyyppä

        The actual number of cultists that could be saved is exactly zero. This is because the fact that those useless leftover marines can easily kill the amount of them to make sure that the rest die unless “I’m” spending 2cp to save them.

        • Xodis

          You just created a Strawman by combining two separate situations and proved my point.

          Scenario 1 is explaining how Combat Squads can be useful. Its pretty easy to make it so.

          Scenario 2 is showing that a free (no 2CP needed) ability of “reroll Moral” that WB gets can be extremely useful for Cultists units.
          Can a squad focus fire an obliterate the Cultists? Of course, thats the point of Cultists, but that means they focused fire and didnt fire at anything else. Im saying that the reroll moral ability keeps a player from targeting them with a single weapon and causing you to lose 3+ more cultists. It keeps Cultists viable and forces units to concentrate on them in order to rid themselves of them.

          • Nyyppä

            Combat squads are not useful. You are just throwing away good weapon slots by not going MSU. Other than that 2*5 marines and 1*10 marines are the same on paper. Obviously killing 9/10 marines automatikally deletes the last one while with 2*5 you have to kill both squads to the last man on average.

            How is that roll useful? 20 cultists die and the last 15 run away even if you roll a 1. Is snake eyes somehow better than 1 from a single dice? Bolters are almost useless against MEQs or better so why not shoot cultists with those and use actual guns for actual targets. It’s not like the bolters could have made real damage to anything else iorth mentioning and the plasmas are not going to target the cultists.

          • Xodis

            Combat squads are useful, because its a waste of points to place a unit on an objective with specialized weaponry they will never use. 1*10 up, take 2 Marines a SGT and 2 upgraded weapons and go be useful, leave the the other 5 behind on an objective unlikely to see action. The alternative of having to buy another 5 man (and possibly wasting a Troops slot) just to sit back and relax is wasteful.

            Secondly, again, your not grasping the concept…. Killing 20 Cultists requires the focus of a unit (or more) which means that unit isn’t shooting at other more important units, or it requires the use of a weapon that should probably be aiming at something other than cultists. The current scenario is having a simple 5 man squad unload with bolters possibly killing 4-6 and then taking out another 4-6….means the Cultists wont last 3 turns hardly. Being able to reroll that moral dice can help negate that and keep them in the game longer.

            I dont find Bolters to be useless against MEQ either, plus I’d rather risk getting a couple wounds on an important unit rather than wasting them on cultists.

          • Nyyppä

            So, you are saying that paying the same to get less is a good idea. Why, exactly? Why not just bring a naked 5 man unit and benefit from the sergeant’s extra attack for both squads? 10 man tactical squad gets 3 better weapons, 2*5 gets 4 .
            You do not waste a troop slot in this game. It’s just not possible to have a working list fail because troop slots ran out. 😀

            Killing 20 cultists does not require a focus from actually useful units. It’s a task for left over guns. Not one lascannon is going to shoot at cultists if there is something else to shoot at.

            Again, it’s not going to be 4-6 cultists gone from the squad. It’s going to be 20+.

          • Xodis

            Its not the same though, its paying less to get more.
            2 squads of 5 Marines with 1 special weapon each is more expensive than 1 squad of 10 Marines with 2 (or even 1 if you dont need a heavy weapon) upgraded weapons…unless the new codex REALLY threw some points curve balls I am unaware of.
            You dont “waste” slots but you may need to get another HQ depending on running out of slots in your formation…making that MSU style of format especially expensive if you’re playing a detachment that doesnt have many Troops slots.
            A lascannon isn’t going to cause 20+ wounds anyways, so hopefully not. But neither is 5 or 10 Bolters even if in Rapid fire range. Its going to be 20+ IF YOU FOCUS FIRE…which again my whole point. To cause 20+ wounds to a unit of Cultists you’re going to need 15+ Bolters in rapid fire range or 30+ bolters within 12-24″……thats what you call left over guns?

            And sure by focusing fire you negate the morals rerolls function….but by not having terrain you negate the +1 cover save, by getting in close you negate the -1BS, etc.., etc… nothing is absolute really including army benefits.

          • Nyyppä

            Wait, what? Having the option to get 4 special weapons does not mean that you are going to have to take them. It’s not more expensive by default.

            Obviously you take only the mandatory troops. There are plenty of better options there.

            3-4 min squads of marines shooting at cultists is not any kind of focus fire yet. Yes, that’s left overs. It’s not even left over squads, it’s random bolter here and there.

            Cover doubless the cultists saved, -1 to hit helps even more. Since you can’t roll under 1 even with a reroll the reroll is moot.

          • Xodis

            No one said you had to take all 4 upgraded weapons….where was that even hinted at? SGT costs points dont they? Also with the 10 man squad lay out you get the choice of a Special and Heavy weapon instead of 2 special weapons. That choice depends on play style.

            Those 3-4 Squads of 5 man Marines you say is the better option cant do 20+ wounds on Cultists, so you’re going to need to do a lot more than that or get them a lot closer….and then 1 squad of cultists just positioned 3 squads of Marines….thats called focus.

            Cover, -1 BS, and everything else was to show that every army ability can be negated by something much like you are saying that focused fire on cultists will null the WB ability.

          • Nyyppä

            No, sergeants do not cost extra. It’s not 7th edition anymore.
            If you are going to go forward with the squad you’d want special weapons instead of heavy just because range is less of an issue but missing a shot is not.

            Let’s see. Min CSM unit with a missile launcher and a combi flamer. That’s potentially 6 wounds from the ml, 6 from the flamer, 6 from a frag grenade, 6 from rapid fire bolters and depending on the target it’s 6-12 wounds from melee…unless it’s WE in which case it’s another 5-10 wounds from melee. That’s 35-46 wound potential…from one turn of shooting and one min CSM squad. The difference of that and min tac quad is that the ml is another flamer. That times 4 would be 140-182 wounds. Not enough?

          • Xodis

            That’s plenty….for focused fire. Congrats. You just wasted an entire CSM squads turn taking out cultists…..it’s only about 1/3 of the points.

          • Nyyppä

            Or just 1-2 to kill off a blob. That’s not a waste. Also not a focus. Those squads cost 101p each. Those cultists are 175. The difference is 13% in cultists’ favor. After the codex is released those cultists cost 140p. Still not 1/3 of the cost of those marines.

          • Xodis

            It is still focused fire because in order to get that rapid fire and the flamers to even work a single blob squad of cultists just repositioned a minimum of 2 squads of your troops to within 8 inches in order for you to successfully take them out.

            Also I disagree that you would want two special instead of a heavy. Special has the advantage of better aim on the move, but the heavy weapons choices are still more advantageous against more unit types, so it really depends on army composition. Again showing that combat squads is not useless.

          • Nyyppä

            No, it’s not focus fire. Besides movement has nothing to do with focus fire anyway.

            Lascannons are not good against infantry, heavy bolters are not good against vehicles or heavy infantry, autocannons are not good against vehicles or heavy infantry, plasma cannons are not good against heavy vehicles or light infantry. Missile launchers are not good against heavy infantry or heavy vehicles. Heavy flamers are just regular flamers with slightly better stats.

            In the meanwhile plamas are good against MEQ and TEQ, hit better than plasma cannons and the range is not significantly worse (or at all?). Also regular plasma is cheaper and more mobile. In the case of BL it’s also a makeshift assault weapon.

            Heavy weapons are good for back field support units, but totting them around somewhere else just because you can is not wise.

          • Nyyppä

            Still nope. First of all the cultists will come to those squads, that is their point. To rush forward so that the opponent has to react to them. Second of all it’s not any more focus fire than anything we saw as normal in 7th. Was all shooting in 7th focus fire?

            Like I said, heavy weapons have a role. Just not in a squad that runs around the field chasing objectives.

          • Xodis

            Heavy Weapons have a role….like taking out Cultists? Do you honestly not see how many times you have contradicted yourself in this conversation alone?

            -You first say you can take out cultists with random weapon fire (and thats not focused fir), now you have dedicated 2+ entire CSM squads loaded with Flamers and Missile Launchers in an effort to do so (but it still isnt focused fire somehow).
            -You try to argue that 2 special weapons are better than 1 Special and 1 Heavy…then you go and create a scenario where you are need a special weapon and a heavy weapon (PER SQUAD) to deal with a single squad of Cultists.
            -Now you want me to believe that the Cultist will come to you and put themselves in a position where you can get your Flamers, rapid fire, and heavy weapons from multiple squads to tear them apart.
            -Also movement DOES have everything to do with focused fire, because if a single squad of Cultists caused you to move multiple units in an effort to “deal” with them, than that squad has already won. Not only did they cause you focus your weapons of multiple squads, but also move into positions to use them….which is an advantage for anyone trying to move that squad in the first place…a thing called tactics.
            -Your list of Heavy weapons shows that each Heavy weapon has a function, and not all of them are good against everything…much like Plasma, Melta, etc… You can can literally make the same list with the “Special” weapons.

          • Nyyppä

            Why would you shoot lascannon at a bunch of cultists? No contradiction in my points. Well, none of my creation. Can’t know what kind of interpretations you are aiming at.

            You can and will take the cultists out with random weapon fire. It’s not like the leftover bolters and such in the vicinity would not be numerous enough. The 2 squads were just proof against your claim that you’d need several more than those 2. No contradictions there.

            Actually I claimed that 2 special weapons per 5 marines are better than 2 special weapons and a heavy weapon per 10 marines. This is true even more in the situatin in which you go running around with that anti tank weapon in the front lines leading it to miss more shots than it would when it’s in a dedicated stationary anti tank unit. So, yeah, 4 plasmas in 10 marines are better than 2 plus a half blind heavy gunner. It’s not about dealing with cultists in this claim, it’s about points efficiency and right guns for the job. If you want to compare this against cultists specifically then 4 flamers in a 2*5 marine group is absolutely better than 10 marines with 2 flamers and a heavy weapon. My 4d6 flamer hits, 2d6 frag grenade shots, 4 bs4+ bolter shots and 8 bs3+ bolter shots vs. your best scenario that is 2d6 flamer hits, 1d6 frag shots, 1d6 frag missile shots, 2 bs4+ bolter shots and 14 bs3+ bolter shots. 48 vs. 40 potential dead cultists.

            Still no. The cultists come to the marines. That is unless the marine user is not smart enough with his/her deployment.

            The math supports me. Try to live with it.

          • Xodis

            You wouldnt, why would you create another strawman?
            It IS a contradiction because you said 2 squads of leftover bolter fire would do the job and then moved the goalposts by adding in special and heavy weapons to make a point. Its a large contradiction.
            Why would you claim that when I specifically stated that you would send the SGT with the 2 upgraded weapons and leave nothing but the bolter boys behind to guard a point that wont see combat? There you go creating new situation and strawman and trying to argue a point.
            Why would the cultists go to the marines? Why would they EVER get within 8 inches of 2 squads loaded up like you have them? I dont know who you play normally but thats not a normal scenario, thats a perfect scenario for you that you wish happens.
            Your “fuzzy” math in a vacuum of the “perfect case scenario” supports that you can focus fire and kill a whole blob of cultists. Congrats, you still contradicted your original point of not even needing special weapons to deal with them…try to live with it.

          • Nyyppä

            Not a sraw man. I just assumed that you would use the slot wisely. Why would you fill an anti tank slot with an anti light infantry heavy weapon when bolters kill light infantry just fine?

            Please quote me on where you see me saying that 2 squads of leftover bolters is going to be enough. I checked and did not find a post where I’d have said that. If you can’t either…well, you know what intentionally not telling the truth is called.
            Also how is it moving goal posts when I prove that MSU is more efficient at killing things that 10 man tac unit in combat squads WHEN the goal posts are firmly placed on “which is better, MSU or a full tac with combat squads”?

            Why would I claim what? What straw man did I create? Which “new situation? The one in which 4 flamers kill more cultists than 2 + a ml + a bolter…which really is the equipment comparison in this context….or the one in which the cultists try to engage the opponent in melee which has been the purpose of those blobs from the start?

            Why would the cultists not go to the marines? The goal is to deny as much damage potential from the opponent and that can not be done by sitting at the home deployment zone. The result is massive casualties literally every time excluding extremely beneficial luck.

            What was the “original point” I made in your interpretation and how did I contradict that? I’m asking because from where I’m sitting it looks like you are just pumping false claims out like there’s no tomorrow and have yet to even begun to present any evidence to support your claims. The math supports my claims, you have just opinions and unproven claims.

          • Xodis

            If you cant find where you mentioned killing 20 cultists with “leftover bolters” than immediately changed to a 5 man squad with missile launchers and flamers…then you failing to understand how many logical fallacies you committed in this conversation is the least of your problems. You also created several strawmen as you continue to try and combine two separate points made and twist them into somehow firing a lascannon at a squad of cultists….none of that was EVER mentioned by me.
            Why would the Cultists NOT go towards the Marines? Are you asking for a reason OTHER than you have TWO squads set up with flamers and missile launchers close enough to use them all while throwing grenades? Seems like a silly question honestly.

            Original Point ” …This is because the fact that those useless leftover marines can easily kill the amount of them to make sure that the rest die…” yet you had to dedicate 2 fully loaded squads just to make sure that happened special weapons and all. If you thinking I’m making false claims, its because you are failing to comprehend what I am typing or even remember half of what you type. Again, “the math for 2 fully dedicated squads designed to eliminate a horde unit and both being within charge/flamer range yet being free to fire in a perfect case scenario” supports your claim, and it also supports mine that you needed to focus fire just to make sure it doesnt happen.

          • Nyyppä

            Leftover bolters sure, but where I specifically claimed that 2 min squads of leftover bolters was enough? That is what you claimed that I had said.

            Those 5 man squads of missile launchers and flamers were the best case scenario for you in the context of the task and in the form of your choosing. That had nothing to do with cultists being killed with leftover bolters. It was about your claim that 1 combi, 1 special and 1 heavy weapon is a better combo for forward operation squad than 2 combi weapons and 2 special weapons.

            The original point there, from which you picked one sentence from and placed it firmly out of context and stapled an unrelated thing on it to make it look something that it is not just to try to make a point was this: It is easy to kill 20 cultists, the leftover bolters are enough to do that ant that renders the WB legion trait moot.

            Again, those 2 squads were just a counter to your claim that it is not enough and I proved that it is. At the same time I proved that your 10 man tac squad is no match for msu marines in killing power.

            What is the precise definition of “focus fire” in this context? How many models have to shoot at a thing, how many shots have to be fired, how many units have to be involved.

            Anyway, as proven above you are just projecting. I did not move goalposts, you did. I did not combine things to make my point, you did. I created no straw men, you created several. Now, your dishonesty is not worth my time. Either stop lying and prove your point with math and/or other facts or in your own continue whining about me being right. It’s just that if you continue this later option still I’m not going to continue this conversation just because there is no point anymore. My points have been proven and the burden of proof has been satisfied. You may choose to legitimately counter or yield in a way of your choosing.

          • Xodis

            Or you can try and comprehend better. All the proof is easily readable above. You’ve combined multiple non connected points and intermixed them. At no point was the combat squad conversation EVER connected to the cultist conversation and I even made that clear on multiple occasions. The only person being dishonest here is you in either your failure to properly stay on topic or your failure to comprehend what we were discussing in the first place. Dont try and blame me simply because you came up with claims you cant back. As your continue to claim ” the math supports me” I never once denied that it didnt…in YOUR scenarios…what part of that are you also failing to comprehend. Feel free not to respond as this has grown from comical to just pathetic.

          • Nyyppä

            So, you admit that I am right unless we are talking about a scenario designed to work against the marines, specifically one that almost never happens in actual games. Roger that. Good to see that you understand reason. The feeble attempted insults thinly veiled as claims you made about me lack proof though.

            Oh well, maybe you’ll get it right next time.

          • Xodis

            Again, work on that reading comprehension, your math right in your own strawman scenario that you created, which I assume you would be otherwise why create it, although assuming that Cultists will move into flamer range (since Marines wont come to them) of 2 Marine units seems a bit sad and pathetic. In no way would that happen unless the Marines are advancing on them except in your head.
            Neither of my attempts to insult you were feeble or thinly veiled, you failed to discuss the actual points and instead focused on your strawman, and you failed to show that your strawman was even viable except in a classic Nyyppa scenario. I dont need to provide proof as its all here and easily readable for those that can grasp it, which seems to be everyone but you.

          • Nyyppä

            You seem to be missing the fact that the burden of proof does not stop being your problem just because you throw labels on my alre proved points.

            Well, you insist on keeping the cultists from doing their job se essentially the marines have done theirs even if they do not fire a shot at them. Again 2 msu squads win. Kudos for that.

            Well, et least you admit that you tried. Sad to see that you are not mature enough to admit that you failed.

            The actual subject is that WB have useless trait. This fact has been proven by using MSU and blobs, one of which does not benefit from it due to small numbers and the other because of massive losses.
            The side track was the MSU vs. max tac units which also was proven to be grossly in favor of MSU due to less vulnerabilities and more options on top of higher default efficiency.

            You need proof to give your claims any credibility. I proved mine to be facts, you have yet to provide any evidence to support yours.

            So, maybe if you just tried to follow your own advice and so on. 🙂

            Anyway, I’m done correcting your lies in this discussion. You may have the last word if you wish. Your ego does not seem to let you bow out even now that you have been factually proven to have no clue. 😀

          • Xodis

            There is no burden of proof simply because the proof already exists, proper reading comprehension proves that.
            Who said the cultists job was to advance on Marines?Cultists have lots of jobs that dont include suicide.
            Why admit something that is untrue? I failed at nothing, because I actually argued the point I made…you however never countered it, or even discussed it because you were too busy with your strawmen.
            Except that my point wasn’t that it was useless but situational and I claimed its useful for when unit doesnt focus fire on the cultist blob could end up saving the player a lot of points over the course of a game. You tried proving that wrong by making scenarios where you focus fire on the blob….odd
            Again all the proof is above in the conversation, you not understanding it is not my problem.

            You provided no facts, only sideline arguments and twisted analogies. You’ve said that several times already….guess we see who the lier REALLY is.

            You keep using that word “fact” but Im not sure you actually know what it means. This conversation is more akin to arguing with a teenager.

  • The real question is… what do we spam to win the world championships?

  • Christie Bryden

    all this is looking positive for when thousand sons get their book, hope we get more new models… becouse we always want new models, hey is space wolves get exclusive flyers and a tone of units their rivals should too.

  • Chaosrex

    I feel kinda cheated as a World eaters player, its like the mixed WE and Renegades Legion traits, i’d rather have the advance+assault trait then the +1A, but hey…

    Just hope that Maulerfiends and Defilers became better and cheaper.

    I also take that not all the Warlords traits and the Artefacts where put in this articles.

    • Nyyppä

      Cheaper yes, better no. Still can’t hit anything and still over costed.

  • Luca Lacchini

    OK, there’s a little keywords conundrum I can’t quite solve…

    Between the Dark Imperium box and my old collection of 2e pieces, I cobbled up a 1500 pts force (more than enough for a game or two), with the classic Fabius Bile model.
    I’d like to field two legion detachments: a World Eaters one, to get Berzerkers as troops, and a Death Guard one because… those are the models in DI.

    Can I place FB (that doesn’t show legion keywords) as an HQ choice in one of these detachments without violating the rules for legion forces?

    • danbond

      no idea about the codex, but going by index: chaos – he can’t go in the Death Guard detachment, as he doesn’t appear in the list of units allowed on the army list. Not sure about World Eaters as they don’t have a list of units allowed

      • Dooms Day

        Your wrong… He can go in a deathguard detachment just like any unit that has the heretic keyword can. The units in the list however are the only units that can have the deathguard keyword.

    • Dooms Day

      It says in the codex that he and fallen do not stop you from using the legion trait. So yes.

      • Luca Lacchini

        Very nice to hear. So, World Eaters and Death Guard will be.

        • Dooms Day

          Tho deathguard would stop you using the trait I think. Youd need them in a different detachment.

          • Luca Lacchini

            Yes, they’re in two separate detachments, I just didn’t got for sure if Fabius Bile could fit in any of them without screwing up the keywords requirements.

          • Dooms Day

            oh ok. then yer thats fine.

    • Nyyppä

      You don’t get zerkers as troops in this edition. You can take a detachment that lets you take 3 units of elites + a HQ though…

      • Luca Lacchini

        According to the Chaos Index you sure can take Berzerkers as troops.

        • Nyyppä

          Who can? Everyone? They are elites.

          • Luca Lacchini

            Chaos Index, page 45, under the World Eaters Legion rules.
            “The battlefield role of World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites”
            Then, as further proof of the concept, you get a new datasheet on page 47, in which the role icon is clearly troops.

          • Nyyppä

            Ok, so you are going for WE. Missed that. My bad. You were explicit about it.

  • Dooms Day

    You got the EC trait wrong.. again.. you dont always fight 1st as EC.. only on the 2nd round of combat…

  • Nightwalker

    Wait, how are you using 2 stratagems in one shooting phase?

    “Endless Caophony: Slaneesh units may shoot for a second time in the shooting phase.
    As above, this is just punishing! Slaanesh Terminators dropping down and unloading with 10 combi-weapons twice is just crushingly powerful. And, remember, Veterans of the Long War above, lasts the entire phase, so you’d get +1 to wound twice!”

    And you said you used that on your terminators… Does the chaos book allow you to break the rule of 1?

    • Alpharius

      You can use any number of different stratagems in one phase…

    • Nyyppä

      The rule of one is “one of each”. Not “one, period”.

      • Nightwalker

        OH that is good to know!

  • Jonnie Mnemonic

    no one has really went over the new plague marine options

    • Nyyppä

      MWG did. Not sure about the cost but they are pretty nice.