Goatboy’s 40k: Badboys of the Meta

Welcome to another 40k chat with the Goatboy.  Today I want to look at the current state of 40K’s meta as we stand today.

We have a bit of a lull in 40k releases right now with some AOS love coming down the pipeline.  This creates an excellent time to talk a bit about the current nature of the Grim Dark universe and maybe where it will shift towards with a rumored “big faq” coming down the pipeline.  The biggest shake up currently is a case of the haves and have nots with only 3 released books dominating the “we got more rules then you” playground.

Strategems & Relics

The biggest benefit these new books have beyond point tweaks is a plethora of Stratagems at their disposal.  After a few test games with the new CSM book, I can see how these abilities are very powerful and force a different build mentality when trying to use them.  I played a quick game with the Lord of Skulls and let me tell you that Daemonforge Stratagem is pretty dang sweet.  I expect most of the new books will have similar rules with either a ton of modifiers, old battalion abilities, and fluffy standbys coming.  It still makes you feel like you can’t really plan your army until you actually get the new, “improved” and bulked up army book.  Overall I just hope we don’t see a specifically spammed Stratagem dominating the table top.

The new Relics are also a big help towards the newer lists with most of them being more in the interesting department.  I think they are all pretty good – with the better ones locking you into a Legion/Chapter that might not be considered the best.  The lack of point cost on top of them beyond some specific “wargear” needed to hot swap the relic is an interesting set up.  I again don’t think any are beyond broken like we had before so I just hope they continue on this trend.  Using these relics to create characters instead of having a tiny piece of wargear dominate a player turn.

Meta Bad Boys

Looking at the top lists from a few events we can start to see some of the “problem” areas.  There are still a few units that probably need to be looked at – whether a change in their point costs, abilities, or how they interact with specific units.  I know a few are most likely on the discussion block with GW and this rumored “big faq” coming down the pipe.  Let’s look at some and see if we can guess how they might change.  I was pretty spot on with the Brim change as while I think they could probably use more tweaks I don’t expect anything else coming for them.

Conscripts
Issues – Interactions with specific AM rules – i.e. Commissars and orders.

I think the ability to mitigate the Morale phase by only losing a single 3 point model is probably the bigger issue at hand.  We have a unit of “criminals” who somehow do ok when a member of their “gang” gets shot.  I suspect a change to how the Commissar works or a removal of his ability to mitigate the Conscripts morale check would most likely fix them.  Sure you can have blobs of dudes, but as soon as you take wounds swaths of them start to get scared, run away, and plan on getting arrested again in the future.  The order system should be reworked a bit to only allow certain orders on these guys.  These are not disciplined warriors so why would they even know how to follow an order correctly, let alone do it so well to be an issue.  I don’t think they need a point cost change as a few other tweaks make them into what the unit should be – really cheap bubble wrap that just blows up when attention is paid to them.

Exalted Flamers
Issues – Cheap Character with Decent shooting and in a “force org” slot that is under used in the Daemon Codex

I think the big issue with these guys is that they are an elite choice.  Thus they can be activated with a detachment that gives a single command point, a few extra HQ units (best thing from Daemons beyond Brims), and just being a character forces weird shooting interactions.  I think the biggest fix for them is probably just move them to an HQ choice like a Herald and these 12+ Exalted Flamer armies start to go away as they don’t have enough “jelly” to make them work.  They need the Battalions and locking them at HQ forces players to make choices of these guys or the next unit I will talk about – the Malefic Lord.  I do agree if these guys get nerfed heavily you start to see Daemon armies without a ton of stuff to do on the Tzeentch side of things.  I think the simplest thing would just to move them out of Elites and onto the HQ landscape – where they have to fight with other options beyond just being an Auto Take if you have the models to use.

Malefic Lord
Issues – Cheap HQ Smite choice that even in a perils they get better.

These guys are going to get a nerf for sure.  They are 30 points, can cast a smite, and have a decent set of rules/powers.  If they perils and don’t die their stats jump up to a Daemon Prince level and this little tiny turd of a model becomes a threat to anyone getting close.  Smite spam is one of the few things the Daemon/CSM/Renegade soup mix does well and this guy is part of the problem.  I expect his point cost to go up and maybe some other tweaks to how his rule works.  I would think he would take more damage from Perils as well as he isn’t exactly a trained psyker.  Plus he works way to closely with Daemons so he has to be easy to corrupt, possessed, and finally explode.  Maybe if he took d6 wounds from a Perils he would be more fair as any perils could kill him and his friends that surround him.

Tau Commander
Issues – Cheaper choice then Suits with better weapons, interaction with Drones, and abilities.

Right now there are some issues with “Commander” spam hitting the table tops.  You got a ton of commanders (most likely old suits instead of the much bigger commander model), a ton of weapons, and drones covering the table top.  The army shoots a lot, has some crazy movement abilities, and shoots a lot.  I don’t think the issue is with the Commander itself as the model seems costs appropriately.  It might not need as many guns but that is the Tau sort of thing.  I think the issue is that the other suit options in the book are just not that good.  When a single model is cheaper, has better damage output, and does more for your army then a 3 man Suit unit there is an issue here.  I think if they up the abilities of the other things in the Tau army the Commander spam will go away.  This isn’t something that needs to be nerfed more so the army just needs an overhaul.  I haven’t heard any chatter on when they might get a book so maybe will see a tweak.  Oh and how much do you want to bet will get a Commander in a Riptide?

Soup Character Heavy Armies
Issues – Imperial Keyword mixed with HQ/Character Detachments

It is crazy how many dang Saints you see on the table top.  Mix that with a ton of other “heroes” all working together in an army filled with other heroes as well.  This causes all kinds of weird interactions with targeting issues, bubble effects, and how good the keyword Imperium actually is.  I think this sort of soup build will start to get limited as people learn to use Objective secured in their games more.  I think also as events get more LOS blocking terrain some of the Soup armies with massive shooting will find themselves less effective as well – thus needing locked in faction detachments and their troops.  This all could be wishful thinking on my part as well as we don’t have enough books to see if just “souping” up your army with all the best choices the Imperium has to offer is the best choice.

Cheap Wargear
Issues – Other armies have to play double the cost on a gun/weapon when both units hit on the “same” Ballistic Skill

We all know the Powerfist is going down to 12 points for all the Marine type armies.  I wish we would just see a blanket change in an FAQ for the other Marine chapters as it would seem like a simple change.  We also know that Plasma is way to cheap for a Guardsmen to have that hits on a 3+.  I know that an AM army can have more then just a 3+ hitting guy in there – but you know and I know that any player would instantly see how powerful a half cost gun is on a guy that costs less then half the amount of a Marine, hits as well as a marine, and you don’t care as much when losing him to an overcharge.  Any of the same named guns should all be the same cost.  Sure you can put the Plasma gun on a 4+ hitting guy – but he costs less then half of a marine.  The gun itself should just have a flat cost amongst all the armies that can take it.

Lack of FW Marine Chapter tactics
Issues – Some armies don’t have a founding chapter so do we just pick whichever one we want?

Does it feel like the Marine FW book wasn’t finished properly?  There are things that feel very fleshed out and then all of a sudden we are missing some things.  I was hoping we would see a “free” chapter tactic update for the FW marines as you can reuse the Warlord traits but just create some interesting tactic rules.  Sure some of them make sense to utilize some of the book ones but what do we do about the Minotaurs.  Or the Exorcists?  I am sure I can sit down, figure out some rules, and quickly spit out a list that at least feels pretty solid for these guys.  It just feels like something that could be easy, make a bunch of people happy, and maybe sell some non 30k FW stuff.

 

I am sure there are other things that are causing game problems locally.  I feel like the biggest thing is that will have a big case of the haves and have nots with armies having book releases and other ones waiting for the day they get their moment to shine.  Overall I am still very happy with 8th and while I see a lot of this as a game that needs to grow it is still worth my time to invest in thinking, playing, and building armies for it.  I am just lucky that my main army – Chaos Space Marines – got a full release so I can really officially start to work on new ideas.

~What do you guys think needs to get worked on?  Is there anything specific that needs a look at and hopefully a decent refresh?

  • Simon Chatterley

    I’ve been building out CSM lists and since the new stratagems my lists are very different. I want CP now as the stratagems are pretty massive force multipliers which I can see as making the difference between a win and a loss. We will have a much better idea when everyone has such things but the taste test will be whether they are better than spamming the best units. I hope so as it will at least put some bodies on the deck but time will tell. I’m super chuffed with the CSM book though. As a World Eaters player I think there are some nasty Berserker combos for sure from it.

    • Karru

      My only, and really the only, issue with the CP system in 8th edition is the way you get them. You more or less have to spam Detachments in order to get that much needed CP as the mid-point gives you 3 CP + 3 CP from Battleforged. 6 CP won’t get you far at all, thus you need to take more. That means more Troops, which unfortunately means cheapest unit spammed to infinity just to get those mandatory slots filled.

      I would love it if some missions made it so you could get CP from holding objectives that aren’t inside your Deployment Zone. That way, it would be more rewarding to try to cap as many as you can during the game and as fast as you can, forcing both armies to move more and more around the table, instead of waiting for the final turn objective grab and denial.

      I found it ironic that the one thing I absolutely wanted to port over from AoS didn’t do so. Missions. AoS missions are rock-solid in my mind because they are either constantly active, objectives are scored mid-game, or they become active at some point during the game. This forces for more movement across the board, making objectives relevant again. In my mind, Objectives haven’t really been relevant since end of 5th edition. It’s all about wiping your opponent and then as a backup plan, grab the objectives at the last turn.

      • euansmith

        I really like the idea of having Objectives generate CPs.

        • LankTank

          I second that. Very cool

      • Simon Chatterley

        Yeah I agree that AoS has the much better missions.

        At Heat 3 of th AoS tournament at Warhammer World I was able to beat an extremely powerful Kroak force when I had a bit of luck turn 1 but was able to play the mission and score points. I lost way more units but numbers were just enough to keep a hold and in the end it was a scrappy win but one because of the mission. In 40k I’d have had no chance as at the end I didn’t hold anything really. Even getting tabled last turn wouldn’t have mattered which was refreshing. I just kept throwing zombies into the meat grinder lols

        • Karru

          That’s the thing right? In 40k, most games I play end through conceding after turn 3-4 because my opponent or I realise that there is no way one can win. I find that as the reason why Alpha Striking is so favoured tactic. Why play for the objectives if you can just annihilate vast majority of your opponent’s army through out the game way before objectives even matter and just make them concede?

          • Jabberwokk

            It’s pretty easy to calculate the amount of damage a dead enemy can do.

            Admittedly obliteration is my preferred tactic.

          • KingAceNumber1

            Unless you’re fighting Nurgle 😉

          • Jabberwokk

            I hate fighting nurgle…..blech,

          • KingAceNumber1

            I’ve been trying to build lists recently to actively mitigate alpha strikes, and it’s been working pretty well for me. While I agree that alpha’s are an issue overall right now, I think if you are prepared you can at least mitigate a lot of what your opponent can do T1. My currently Thousand Sons list offers up 4 viable targets on the first turn; Magnus (who is under Changeling’s aura and gets 6+ FNP from WLT’s), one of two Rhino’s filled with Rubrics, or 20 brims. Everything else is either characters, reserved, in vehicles, or summoned. None of those initial targets save Magnus are game-ending for me to lose. Granted, if Magnus managed to eat it T1 it’s a struggle to come back from, but overall it’s been pretty solid.

          • Karru

            That has been more or less what I’ve been doing as well. Instead of going for the Alpha Strike, I try to mitigate it as much as I can. Small units in Rhinos with the hitting power coming down in reserves with characters riding along the Rhino Troops.

            I tried many lists in the past, except Alpha Striking, and didn’t find much luck nor enjoyment out of them. My current lists try to focus on rushing the enemy lines with many units inside transports and then just mass charging his units with them while the small units spread across the board and grab objectives.

          • KingAceNumber1

            I know you’re a guard player, what else do you play that you’re rushing with vehicles out of curiosity?

          • Karru

            I play Space Marines, Orks and Eldar as well. I don’t do it as much with Guard, I prefer the gunline approach which slowly advances across the table, the list has 155 infantry models and 5 Tanks in it. With my SM I use lots of 5-man Tac Squads with Combi-weapons + same Special Weapon in Rhinos as my core and then mostly things like Terminators and maybe the Stormraven.

            Orks are just Bikes and Trukk boys mostly. Speedfreaks all the way.

            With Eldar I do a mixed bag of backline support units like Dark Reapers and Vaul’s Wrath Support Batteries and frontline assaults with Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents.

            Recently though I’ve been playing and fooling around in Tabletop Simulator with a friend in 40k. Trying out all kinds of interesting lists and concepts.

      • DoctorBored

        But the point is that getting more CP means your army may not have an ideal composition. Command Points represent your army hierarchy being efficient and your leaders able to affect the flow of battle because of this. If you want a better army with more ideal units, your CP may not be as efficient because the chain of command is different, but the individual units are going to be better. It’s a trade-off. Do you have better units that can have a greater impact on the battle, or do you spam a bunch of cheap things just to get CP? If you have a bunch of cheap things, then the CP become less useful because many of the strategems aren’t as effective on MSU type crap.

        • Karru

          Not the case. The idea is that you spam minimal detachments, like say 2-3 Battalions with just minimal Troops and HQs, then just take the actual damage dealing units, buff them to high heavens with the Stratagems, Win-Win for you, as you get your CP and Damage to your army still.

          The point is to just spam the cheapest troops, not waste points on any “premium” troops, like with CSM you take Cultists galore, no reason to take the CSM squads.

      • Tushan

        The problem is points disparity across HQs of armies. Spamming detatchments is no problem when your mandatory HQ costs peanuts but try spamming detatchments with a GK army.

        • Karru

          More the reason to fix the system. Making Troops and Objectives relevant and rewarding people for taking them is something GW should focus on, but unfortunately that doesn’t increase sales.

    • LankTank

      I agree. A las helbrute is fine. One with a lord is good. One with a lord and fire frenzy is savage

  • Majere613

    They can leave the Malefic Lord the hell alone until they sort out the rest of the Renegades list to be worth playing. Smite spam is pretty much the only thing they have at the moment and Guard can stil do even that better by spamming Sanctioned Psykers and Wyrdvanes.

    • stinkoman

      i would say the same about EF demons, though i dont play EFs, i have been thinking about spamming EFs because foot slogging/summoning demons blow and are not fun to play at all.

      how about fixing the one mechanic that seems to be plaguing most of these “bad boys” – the character mechanic. either fix targeting or put a limit on them, or both.

      • KingAceNumber1

        Character mechanic is nearly single-handedly causing more problems than anything else in the game right now, and it’s literally only because characters can block for other characters.

        • stinkoman

          I would also throw in the fact that you can spam them.

    • KingAceNumber1

      Get ready to be disappointed, they take it in the throat from the nerf bat on the next FAQ.

      • gordonshumway

        Citation?

        • KingAceNumber1

          Reece said as much in one of the recent podcasts, along with exalted flamers getting a nerf. AFAIK the playtesters are let in on FAQ stuff to weigh in. I’m just guessing, tbh, but it’s on pretty good authority.

    • gordonshumway

      Amen. Renegades are a hilarious joke of an army right now and people want to nerf the one unit that does any work for us? I do agree he should probably cost a little more, 40-60ish should be about right. But his powers/abilities/etc should stay as is, imo. I mean the Warp Possession comes into play so rarely it is almost a non-issue. I mean come on, access to zero re-rolls and zero buff bubbles (something literally every other army in the entire game has) is currently punishment enough for spamming under-costed Lords. 😉

      But yeah, while we’re on the subject, some armywides that aren’t complete trash would be nice. Along with a much needed cleaning up of the horribly written/QAed rules. Only at this point would I accept a full nerf to the Malefic Lords.

  • Damon Sherman

    I think the worst thing is a lot of these units are good in the wrong way. Like either with wierd rules interactions, or the developers underestimating how good they were.

  • Mr.Gold

    Goatboy saying no to spam??? The end is here…

    • Hes written the same article in 6th and 7th edition saying no to spam.

      • OrksIsMadeFerRockin

        And every time he posts a armylist or tactics article there is so much spam the list is can shaped.

        • True. At his heart, Goatboy is a min/maxer and its hard getting out of that mentality. Especially in Games Workshop games where there is always an obvious take unit, and you want to take as many as you can get.

        • ZeeLobby

          You can be against spam and still write lists with spam. In the end competitive players will write whatever list they deem is most competitive. If the game lets them spam the best units in the game, they’ll continue to do so, even if they think it’s a flaw.

  • euansmith

    I would like to see some designers’ notes from GW, covering things like how the price units. PP did a load of designers’ notes in the run up to Mk3, and, while people didn’t seem to like the results, I found it interesting to see what the designers were aiming for.

    Charging extra points for a weapon being carried by a more robust combatant makes sense from a balance point of view; though maybe less so when the weapon in question effectively makes the robust fighter equal to his feeble opponent due to AP. These are the kind of interactions I would hope go in to GW’s balancing act with the points values.

    However, I can see that 40k, as it stands, must be a nightmare to balance. The fact that a portion of the player base really likes the wide range of options for units, rather leaves GW herding cats.

    • Antoine Henry

      No its not a nightmare, a good matrix and nice Xls cheats and a bit of work they are paid for and it should be okay to see the issues. They do not play their games and their “rule developpers” seems to be a bit overwhelmed by all the data. I think they are just unprofesionnal, lazy and do not test enough or play enough. Well, I would gladly do that for them if I was paid for it (and i am sure we can collect those data on the net as someone would be crazy enough to do that for free for them). They never cared about that kind of things and they always were lazy. At least now they hear to complains to fix things…but that is not the correct thing to do. People will always complain, if you change something just from complains without explanation, i can create 1000 Facebook accounts and spam their warhammer community to have my Eldars get 4 in Toughness… Hopefully i might get it

      • I_am_Alpharius

        They do not play their games and their “rule developers” seems to be a bit overwhelmed by all the data. I think they are just unprofessional, lazy and do not test enough or play enough.

        Frankly, that statement unfairly insulting and massively disingenuous and cynical attitude to the guys in the Studio.

        • Antoine Henry

          Unfairly insulting ? The garbage they provided is insulting to the consumer when those pay a high price for a “premium” product. No its not insulting to say they are lazy or do not test or check their rule issues (or maybe they have a too high workload and then thats again not my problem but theirs). When they said they tested 2 and Half year a game and that they provide that kind of issues a 10 years old player can see after half a game, no I feel i am not insulting anyone. Yes, I do not respect the work they have done on rules since decades. They are bad at it, they are just updating it quicker now but they already went back to the same path as before. The only good thing now is that they are faster to react and connected again to their consumers. I also agree that no product is perfect, but I hate when someone brag “this is the best edition ever, its balanced and we tested for 2 and half year, you will see” and then you see …that.

          • WarriorOfIron

            Yet GW did the same thing and people are overlooking there issues/ not calling them out

        • Mira Bella

          How so?

  • William Jameson

    I think you have the definition of conscripts mixed up with convicts. Convicts would fit the description of a gang of criminals (GW penal legion rules plz) while conscripts are fresh recruits.

    • euansmith

      I don’t know if Guard still need to make a roll to hand out orders to their blobs. If they do, do the Conscripts have a higher target number for issuing them orders? That would be fluffy. Maybe with a change of suffering some sort of mixed messages if a Commander suffers “Perils of the Comms Net”; allowing the opponent to move or shoot with the unit. 😀

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        It’s a slippery slope as IG are strong again and if the nerf bat hits too hard they go back to middle tier at best. This is why I liked platoons, you could have all the conscripts you want but you had to have a great deal of regular troops and a few command units to offset the unit value. Sadly when dealing with a fight against Robby B and his re-roll shenanigans IG need something to absorb the level of damage coming their way. I’ve seen 8 games recently and 6 of them used him. People go for the best units understandably.

        • euansmith

          What, people drop the B-bomb in civilized gaming environments? Jeez, what’s wrong with folk these days! 😉

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            It’s funny as I’ve been playing IG for over a decade but people still think all IG is leafblower. I never used that list and while I get why people did it wasn’t fun for me. I want to win just as much as the next person but the B-bomb is something I’d like to only see in games of 3000 or more. Superheavies are in the same boat as him.We go to a tournie you know what you’re getting into, I just am nostalgic for less netlist armies. Side note I’ll wait until the codex comes out but I feel conscripts are a good counter to Robby B.

          • Muninwing

            X is bad
            but X counters Y, which is also bad

            yep… that’s 40k.

            no wonder every edition’s meta goes extreme so quickly.

      • generalchaos34

        I think if they simply said “no orders” at all on conscripts it would satisfy me as a guard player. The commissars can still keep them in line but they are truly awful at anything beyond taking up space and taking fire, as they should be. If you want flexible units with options that orders can magnify, Infantry squads should be your go to.

        • Muninwing

          and fluff-wise, how likely is a conscript squad going to toe the line when given an order?

          i almost think that they should have to roll Ld to receive the order… and a Commissar shouldn’t be able to shoot one to auto-pass. it’s not about them being tough enough, it’s about them being sloppy and untrained.

  • Karru

    It is just obvious that all these units are just the usual GW either not realising what they are doing, which is the most likely scenario, or purposefully doing it to improve sales, which I doubt is their real reason for doing this, at least not the main cause.

    They don’t do testing, they don’t read their own rules or know them very well. They most likely play more or less “balanced 40k” which is the style you see in very casual environment. The unfortunate effect this has is that they very easily skew the balance, as they really don’t read their rules and realise how badly people can just abuse the system.

    As for the units, Conscripts only really need few things to make them completely balanced. First, remove their ability to take Orders. Second, make it so that they lose D6 models if they fail a morale check and there is a Commissar nearby, instead of the maximum of 1. I’ve heard so many propositions for these guys. “Make them 4pts each”, “Make it so that they can’t benefit from the commissar”, etc. No, no and once more no. Making them 4pts a piece makes them worthless. You pay the same for an Infantry Squad, which have better options, stats and can benefit from the Commissar buff. I would never take the Conscripts in that situation, because the minimum of 20 models doesn’t help them as a single volley would be able to most likely heavily damage them and a second one wipe them due to Morale, as they are Ld 4 base.

    I can see the Exalted Flamers to be a problem, even if I haven’t faced them myself. Because of that though, I have no comment on this one. Same thing with Malefic Lords, never faced them.

    Now Tau Commanders are an interesting topic. I have played against Tau quite a few times, but I have not faced this issue. Will have a chat with a Tau player on this one at some point though, interesting.

    Soup Heavy Characters. Now this one was an obvious thing. I loved the fact that GW was “the days of mixing characters is over! Rejoice for in 8th that is not possible! No longer will you see Dark Angels fighting alongside Space Wolves! The days of the death stars are over!” And then they pull this sh*t. Certainly no one would abuse the ability to form Imperials into super army again, especially with pretty much Unbound style army constructions, said the dev team.

    Easy fix here would be to just make it so the Character rule only works on units/models you share certain keywords with. For example, Adeptus Astartes can only screen Adeptus Astares and so on. Then just make the buffs work only on their own “faction”, so no “All Imperial units” going on.

    Okay, the one notion I see people forgetting when it comes to “Some armies getting the same weapon for cheaper” seem to that they completely overlook the fact that the unit that has it is usually extremely squishy. Also, Marines for example have super easy access to “Re-roll 1’s” while Guard armies have some problems on that front, Company Commanders while cheap and plentiful aren’t the most durable unit out there. Also, spamming units with the special weapons can get quite difficult to actually give the buff to.

    Overall, most of the issues we are currently facing can be easily fixed without breaking things or making things absolutely worthless. As for those who will most likely scream “BUT MUH FLAVOUR ARMIES!”, you can still make them, they won’t just be as broken as before, which is of course fine as you would never do something like that to want to purposefully break the game.

    • euansmith

      The “Imperium” keyword does seem like rather an own goal by the design team.

    • Paul Raymond

      As a Guard player, I don’t understand the beef with Conscripts now. They were 3pts in 7th, and were easy to make hold the line by sticking a Commissar in them. Some guys preferred massed infantry and used them pretty successfully before, now they’ve caught on because they are easier to take in 8th. I’ve fought them, they take a beating, but other than hold the line what do they do? Hit you with a few S3 hits a turn and die in droves even with the Commissar there. One or two good anti-mob units that throw a lot of dice can trim them back easily. If it’s about people running 100+ Conscripts, yeah, spamming anything sucks to face off against. Maybe limit them to 30 guys rather than 50. Or like many have said, bring back platoons so you need at least two Infantry Squads and an LT to take a singe Conscript blob.

      The Tau Commander spam I fought over the weekend. Eight Commanders surrounded by drones, so you can’t target them. Each drone is it’s own unit so you need to split fire everything and hope you didn’t bring any dakka, because those 10 to 20 shots will be wasted killing a single drone. They all fly so you can’t get any stuck in combat, they always shoot, nearby drones can automatically take a wound that actually gets to them. They are very frustrating to face, but I think mainly because of Character rules and Spam, not their own faction rules, which I’m hearing are a bit weak. The player using them claimed it was the only Tau list he could make win in 8th, though my local meta is a ton of tournament players so that might be why.

      I like different point costs for weapons, a Guardsman shouldn’t pay the same points for a plasmagun as a Marine… But 7pts is really too cheap, it probably should be bumped up a little.

  • euansmith

    Who made the Malefic Lord mini?

    • Crevab

      That’s the FW Renegade Psyker duo

      • euansmith

        Nice. I thought it was a conversion job 😉 Certainly the paint job looks more atmospheric than the usual ‘eavy Metal Studio output. I was expecting it to be from KrautScientist or one of those Inq28 guys.

  • Crevab

    I suppose it matters more now that we can field some many factions in one army. But balance-wise it shouldn’t matter a flying fig how a piece of one army compares to another. Heck it was better with costs being different between units.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    There’s a rumoured “big FAQ” coming? Where has this rumour come from? Unless I missed it, seem that thats the first time its has been mentioned here?

    Seems difficult to nail down any particular ‘meta’ with how fast Codex’s are being published (every 2-3 weeks to reach the 10 they’ve said are coming) and how quickly GW are FAQ undesired trends in the bud.

    • KingAceNumber1

      I don’t think there will be any sort of concrete meta for another 6 to 8 months, what with the game being in its infancy and codices coming so quickly. Looking forward to NOVA this year simply to see what people bring, it’s going to be the wild west!

  • CloakingDonkey

    This is why I’m quitting 40K again.

    At first I thought this constant balancing was ok but it’s never gonna end. The bloody WAAC locusts will move from one exploitable thing to another, get it nerfed and move on all the while my normal army concepts get changed to no longer be legal cause some unit is suddenly not Elite but HQ or whatever nonsense. I don’t have the money for “collections”, I buy armies and I’m not buying 20-40€ models, paint them only to shelve them because they’re not legal anymore…

    So congrats WAAC rats, you’ve chased me back to my cozy Bolt Action in record time. 😉

    • KingAceNumber1

      Don’t let the door hit you and all that

      • CloakingDonkey

        thx buddy. You enjoy your spam meta now, ya hear?

        • KingAceNumber1

          Eh, I have a group of buddies I generally play with for friendly games when I get sick of the tournament scene. I think you have to make the experience into what you want. I’m a ‘competitive’ gamer, whatever you take that to mean, but I enjoy a good narrative match or story campaign as well. Just gotta go find the kind of game you want to play =)

          • Mira Bella

            Competitive 40k player…
            😀

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            don’t let the door hit you on the way into the manners class.

        • Lebowski1111111111

          Who cares what the internet meta does, if you dont go to tournaments worry about your local meta. We got 30 guys at my club, atleast 1/3 are looking for open and narrative games, they dont care what the competative players are doing at the other table, why should you?

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      I’ve gone back to 7th. You might consider that if anyone will play you. 30k is good too.

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        30k is excellent. Yes there are some nasty power builds but the balance and lack of uber detachment builds makes it far more fun IMO.

        • CloakingDonkey

          yeah but I don’t like Space Marines… that’s a bit of a problem in 30K 😛

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Go mechanicus? Thank God I have as much on my plate as I do now or I’d probably collect a 30K Mechanicus force, they look great and can be really nasty while staying fun.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Mechanicus (Dark and Loyalist), Solar Auxilia, Imperial Militia, Chaos Cult…

            If you don’t like Space Marines there are plenty of other factions, just like in 40K.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Perhaps then play 40K the way you want to play? Don’t allow the competitive scene to dictate how you play or colour your enjoyment of the game? Sheesh it’s not hard; literally 1000’s of hobbyist manage it…

      • CloakingDonkey

        Bit hard to do when the game gets balanced and “fixed” around whatever bullcrap the WAACs come up with. And it’s just a symptom. It’s reminded me that GW loves to change stuff around so your armies aren’t legal anymore. Thanks but no thanks.

  • stinkoman

    “The gun itself should just have a flat cost amongst all the armies that can take it.”

    why would you do this? the cost may need a little adjustment now, but i dont think paying the same points accross the board is the answer. you have to take into account he stats of the model carrying it. yes, that is considered with the point cost of the said model, ie guardsman vs sm, but those points are balanced on the individual model stats already. this is why all the points costs are broken down between wargear and base model.

    you pay 4 points for a guardsman and 9 for a SM (i think, but it doesnt matter for the example). if you throw a 14 pt plasma gun on top you’re guardsman just shot up over half of a spacemarine (18 vs 24) and for 6 more points that SM is a hell of a lot better.

    i think the points should be adjusted, but in no way should every army pay the same points for the same weapon if they dont use it as well. you give four guardsman vets plasma guns and they die to 4 bolters. you reverse the situation and you maybe kill a SM or two. the guardsman pop out of a transport, shoot and then die. SM on the other hand, are expected to be around a few rounds.

    • Deacon Ix

      Had this issue with Power Fists in 7th – same cost for IG and SM and S8 vs S6, it made no sense.

    • euansmith

      There is a set of rules on the One Page Rules site called, “Double Tap” (sort of their version of Infinity) which multiples the value of the weapon and special abilites by the value of the dude carrying it. It is a neat solution.

      • stinkoman

        That actually does sound like a good solution. though, not a game developer, but wondering if that would mess up the way they “balance” the base cost.

        • euansmith

          I have no idea how GW “balance” their points costs. I think it might involve rolling a bucket of dice. 😀

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Dart board?

          • euansmith

            Plus blindfold or alcohol?

          • Muninwing

            why not both?

          • euansmith

            I think you’ve missed your true calling as a Baby Shower Organiser. 😉

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            I was going to say that but some folk might think I’m being negative.

    • generalchaos34

      I think if we switch plasma and melta costs on all armies then it will even itself out. Right now im not taking any meltas because plasma do all my work for cheap (and better in some cases) and I WANT to take melta but its not going to happen anytime soon. The limitations on melta are too much, but if its 7 points for melta and 9 for plasma I may find myself more likely to spam melta on a Scion unit

    • Muninwing

      as a counterpoint, GW has gone with different cost for same effective thing, or cheaper for better with an army that had limited choices before.

      it rarely balances.

      Being a Deathwing player, terminators are a great source of data for me. and GK terminators were both cheaper and better armed than other SM… but the real hit was the weapon upgrades. everything was the same cost or cheaper. everything was the same stats or better. some were both cheaper and better.

      so much for game balance.

      and the idea of “well, i only have so many options to play as GK that this fills a need!” that was the justification for such cheez in 5th went out the window with formations and allies and the like, forms of which still exist.

  • KingAceNumber1

    When is this FAQ supposed to drop? Post-NOVA?

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Hyperbole.

      • KingAceNumber1

        Sorry?

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          There is no FAQ yet.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Malefic Lords are glass cannons. 4++ on a 4 wound T3 body is hardly game-breaking, and only becomes a problem if your list lacks volume fire or mortal wound delivery.

  • Witch Beatrice

    CONSCRIPTS are drafted men nust like in Vietnam and World war one and two. They had their basic training and then go and listen to their officers commands. CRIMINALS you are thinking PENAL legions those are a squad that rules and fluff wise should never follow orders.

  • Dalinair

    Somehow i dont feel like the tau commander should be on this list at all. Its a collection of overpowered units that the author feels need nerfing (many people agree conscripts should not get orders), the tau commander doesn’t qualify for this list imo.

    As you say he’s really just spammed because other options are crap. Nerfing the tau commander would be the tau final nail in the coffin. I can’t see anything happening to him until a new codex drops and only then when other options are made better.