40K: Why Codex Death Guard is So Important

Codex Death Guard is cementing Chaos as THE primary Antagonist of the Grimdark – Where they should be.

First let’s get something off my chest – I LOVE Xenos.  From my beloved and 25 year old Eldar to my Tau Empire to my newly arrived Necrons, I love the variety and spice that Xenos offer to the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

You have to LOVE the Eldar to paint that many Guardians…

 

In the earliest days of the game – there wasn’t a central theme to form an axis upon which the galaxy would turn.  The original Rogue Trader book was – if we are being honest a giant melting pot of every sci-fi trope out there mixed in with some heavy gothic, dark age Roman Catholic Church and just plain Roman Empire themes.  You can flip through the pages of Rogue Trader and see Star Trek, Star Wars, Dune, Asimov, Heinlein and everything you could grab off a sci-fi bookshelf in the late 80s.

It was incredibly fun, almost impossibly large in ambition and scope, but also had a lack of narrative focus.

Ask any writer what a solid setting needs and they will tell you: strong protagonists and antagonists.

The Protagonists were easy.  Hmm, if only 40K had some kind of impossibly brave super soldiers, desperately holding the line against a hostile galaxy trying to extinguish mankind…

Oh right – these guys!

The Antagonists were harder.  Certainly there were many choices, but back in the early days they all felt kind of like the alien-of-the-week on Star Trek.

Cool, but not exactly terrifying…

Yes any of these guys could be dangerous, and certainly deadly – but there was no real narrative “sizzle” to any of the original non-humans. It was pretty much a “leave them alone and they will leave you alone” kind of vibe – and that just won’t do for the Grimdark.

Luckily the Realms of Chaos books came out and introduced perhaps GW’s greatest piece of creative IP – the entire pantheon of Chaos and it’s followers.

 

Now THESE guys are villains of the first order! 

Chaos represented Immortal threats to all life, unrelenting with deamonic legions. Better yet were their mortal followers – TRAITOR Space Marines.  I’m sure it needs no special explanation, but for time immemorial there is a special place in the halls of villainy where societies place traitors.  Since ancient times, countries often reserve their harshest most horrific punishments not for external enemies of the state – but for traitors. Traitors elicit a far greater emotional response then mere enemy conquerors or criminals.

The CSMs were the real villains of the Grimdark with “sizzle” and they always should be.

For decades we saw the slow expansion of the Loyalist side of things. As far back as 2nd Edition, there were already separate codexes for Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the Angels of Death.  Chaos shouldered on, eventually seeing Chaos Daemons split off into their own codex.

But the imbalance was always there. For almost a decade, Chaos lost it’s teeth on the tabletop and the universe lost a lot of it’s narrative energy. It’s hard for the Black Library staff to sell a faction as the ultimate bad guys when no one will take them on the tabletop due to weak rules.

But in the last 12 months all of that has changed.  The arrival of first Thousand Sons and now Death Guard as standalone codexes/books is a BIG DEAL. First, I believe it will only be a matter of time till we see World Eaters and Emperor’s Children codexes. Next the return of the Primarchs isn’t just about selling models, it’s about introducing a new set of immortal heroes and villains who again are estranged brothers – you can’t ask for better storytelling than that.  Most importantly GW’s investment in new CSM minis and books to support them means that the company has returned to it’s best villains and intends to make them the ultimate bad guys the game needs to work on a narrative and emotional level for the fans.

I couldn’t be happier – and as always – DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

 

  • Rafał Pytlak

    BRING ME DRAIGO! WHERE IS THAT LITTLE MO@$#&%*@R?!

    • Nyyppä

      Sniffing warp dust and putting single Imperial Credit bills to dancing daemonettes’ panties.

      • ZeeLobby

        LoL. Where is this setting. I want that back!

        • Nyyppä

          I think someone made animations of this.

    • Arykaas

      in the warp, PROVIDING THE HAM !

    • plasticvicar

      I concluded long ago that Draigo’s survival in the warp can only be attributed to him having been elevated to an unwitting daemon prince of Malal. Eat that Matt Ward.

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        You have won the interweb for the year. I actually would love to see this happen.

      • Muninwing

        i’d rather see him a devotee/avatar of Zuvassin or Necoho…

      • Rafał Pytlak

        Ooooor The Silver Knight kneeling (oh yeah) before the majestic dong of Slaanesh!

      • LankTank

        I share the theory that he is actually a prisoner of LOC M’Kachen and that his heroic quests of annihilating daemon worlds, pimp slapping Mortarion and all other Matt Ward GK wet dream dribble are ACTUALLY hallucinations given to him by M’Kachen. These will keep getting grander until he has even slew the Chaos Gods themselves just so at his height the LOC can then show him the truth shattering his spirit

  • Nyyppä

    Now, if only the legion that started it all had working rules….

    • Fergie0044

      They’re about to!

      (Because typhus was one of the first, possibly THE first marine to worship chaos? I don’t think we know for sure who came first, Typhus or Erebus?)

      Anyway I’m just teasing. My sympathies to my dogmatic cousins. On the bright side you guys can lay claim to the best HH novels.

      • Charon

        As the “old faith” of Colchis basically was Chaos and Erebus (and more importantly Kor Phaeron) “defected” from the old faith in favor of Lorgars new faith in the space god that will come to liberate and elevate them, it should be pretty clear that WB were the first, especially as Lorgars “daddys” never really gave up their “old faith”.

        • Fergie0044

          Yep. But we don’t know when typhus began worshiping. So for who was the first space marine to follow chaos, it may just come down to who was discovered and turned into marines first – the DG planet or the WB planet?

          Of course chaos worship in various forms pre-dates all the marine legions.

      • Nyyppä

        YAY!

      • Erebus came first. Way first. Erebus was the one that spread the taint in the first place. The Horus Heresy series is pretty clear on that one.

        • Fergie0044

          You got a source for that? I’m genuinely asking. While Erebus spread the taint that doesn’t necessarily mean his ‘faith’ pre-dates Typhus. Sure Typhus had to keep a lot about himself secret due to Mortys dislike of pyskers. I recall Lorgar saying in ‘Betrayer’ to Erebus something along the lines of “You and your friend Calas Typhon may think that being the first makes you special…” but I don’t recall reading anything definitive on who came first.

          Of course I’ve not read anywhere close to all the HH stuff so would be interested to know if it’s been outright said somewhere.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            I believe a lot the info is in the First Heretic novel. Anyhow, the lore suggest that the Word Bearer home world of Colchis is where it began. On Colchis before Lorgar arrival (and after to an extent) the planet followed a church knows as the, Covenant of Colchis. Colchian legend talked of great prophets, Khaane, Tezen, Slanat and Narag. When the Emperor turned up eventually the Covenants tenants were pushed toward the Imperial Creed and so disappeared. Its unclear how much Lorgar knew about the Covenants roots or how much he followed it growing up and wrote into the Book of Lorgar. However Erebus never stopped believing.

          • benn grimm
          • Fergie0044

            Well yeah, chaos worship pre-dates the imperium and the space marines. My question was who was the first space marine to worship chaos and with the info I’ve seen it could be either erebus or typhus. Its not clearly stated anywhere when exactly typhus started, while we do know erebus likely did all his life.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            I think its in Flight of the Eisenstein there mention of it. In fact, Typhon himself says he was secretly converted to worship of the Gods of Chaos by his friend Erebus – before Horus and before Mortairon.

          • Aurion Shidhe

            I know what you’re saying is true (I have also read those passages), BUT, the fact that someone claiming to be Alpharius is saying this makes me question its truth. Darn you for sowing discord!

          • benn grimm

            Lol, what is truth? 😉

          • LankTank

            =D

          • Fergie0044

            Oh ok. It’s been ages since I read that.

          • The novel about the Word Bearers origins was called “The First Heretic”, which is kind of suggestive that one of them was first.
            http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_First_Heretic_(Novel)

          • Yes. The Horus Heresy series. Up to this point there is very little written about Typhon other than a few appearances.

          • Fergie0044

            There is nothing conclusive in the ones I’ve read though (including first heretic). Sure Erebus and all of Colchis worshiped chaos but this doesn’t mean Typhus also worshiped chaos before. And my question was who do we think was the first space marine. It could be a tie tbh.

          • It could be. But I dont’ think so. Erebus’ whole schtick is the one that originated the worship of chaos with the legions and spread it around. If GW was going to include Typhus into that mix I’d think that they’d have included him in the storyline. He has been mostly MIA.

          • Fergie0044

            “originated the worship of chaos with the legions and spread it around” agree. he def was the one who spread it around. typhus kept it to himself it seems cause Morty wouldn’t approve of warp magic.
            Still doesn’t decide who started first though.

          • Well by that it is impossible to answer then, because there is nothing written about Typhus other than a couple of paragraphs in 45 volumes of work lol.

          • Fergie0044

            Sadly so. DG are really under represented in the HH. They’re usually just in the background of the Horus focused stories.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well so far there’s been novelization saying Erebus is the first. We simply don’t know about Typhus’s past, so we have to assume for now that he isn’t. Erebus was always the dark seed.

          • benn grimm

            He grew up on Barbarus, struggled with his latent psyker powers as a child and kept bees. When the Emprah retrieved Morty, he joined up with the Death Guard. See if you can work out which of those facts is a lie…;)

          • ZeeLobby

            What’s scary, is that with the current writing, I’m not really sure… XD

          • benn grimm

            Apparently it was Erebus who converted Calas Typhon/Typhus to chaos. It’s in ‘Flight of the Eisenstein’

          • evillsvain

            Wasn’t Magnus actually the first one to turn to Chaos and spread the taint to his legion even if it was done in hubris/unwittingly 😉 Also Mortarion grew up as a prodigy of the Chaos worshiping Overlord and probably had been touched or even actively meddled with Chaos also all the way from the beginning. But yeah, as an active schemer/traitor Erebus and Kor-Phaeron are the first.

          • Muninwing

            he didn’t “turn” until well after things were underway.

            there were plenty of psykers out and about. many in service to the librarius.

          • evillsvain

            Magnus used sorcery from the beginning and taught it to his Legion-he even made a deal with Tzeentch to save the legion. Now, he might have not understood the full might of Chaos or that he was being used but he actively embraced the power it gave him and his Legion nonetheless.

          • Muninwing

            yes. none of that is a “turn”

          • evillsvain

            So, generals who served Hitler and made the Holocaust possible but stated at Nuremberg that they weren’t Nazis or guilty of war crimes were actually innocent because they didn’t belong to the Party and just followed orders? See, to turn to evil doesn’t require ones actual declaration – consent and action is prove enough.

          • LankTank

            There is a difference between falling to chaos and turning to chaos. The WB knew the chaos gods for what they were and spread the chaos influence. One Eye Flappy Wing reluctantly turned to them to spare himself and his legion

          • evillsvain

            Magnus turned to Tzeentch long before the fall of Prospero. He “cured” fleshchange from the legion with the help of Tzeentch when he took the command. Also falling and turning to Chaos is pretty much the same. Nobody actively turns to Chaos in the stories but it always starts with corruption and promise of power etc. The Primarchs were touched by Chaos from the beginning as Emperor apparently cheated Chaos Gods for knowledge in their creation and so the Gods scattered them all over the Galaxy. Some of them resisted and others did not but the corruption didn’t happen just because Erebus started talking to them.

          • Muninwing

            umm… did you just…

            yeah, not the same.

            it’s more like someone who is a staunch pro-business conservative capitalist because thy work in finance and see the positives of such an approach… who only after some revelation realizes that all the climate change denialism that’s popular there as a deflection of fault is built on terrible data, then chose to support it actively due to the aforementioned refusal to admit fault.

            falling is not a dodgy excuse.

            the Thousand Sons explored sorcery without zero knowledge of the negatives of chaos — information that the big Empy withheld from them deliberately. so they explored their natural gifts. they explored what the Emperor himself did.

            they had no reason to think that what they were doing was wrong. unlike those aforementioned generals — whose very humanity and morality was circumvented with the excuse of “just following orders” when they full well knew what those orders meant.

            it was the raising of the Thousand Sons to be skilled sorcerers — and then suddenly banning the very talent they were notable for — that caused them to disobey Nikea. and had Empy bothered to not be a giant d-nozzle and tell them anything relevant about his plans, they’d have stopped and waited. “i’m doing sensitive work, you can ruin everything if you don’t take a hiatus, but my longterm plans for all of you involve these very powers so you’ll get to go back to your ways later” would have prevented half the Heresy.

            Magnus reached out for help. Tzeentch was willing to give that help. the Space Wolves caused the Thousand Sons to fall, not their dabbling in sorcery.

          • evillsvain

            Emperor warned Magnus long before Nikea not to dabble in sorcery but he still did it. He cured fleshchange from his Legion with the help of Tzeentch and he never told Emperor that he had talked to creatures of the Warp already before they met first time. Emperor hid knowledge from Magnus probably because he knew Magnus couldn’t resist temptation and because Magnus was just a tool to be used in the Golden Throne. Yes, Wolves destroyed Prospero but Magnus destroyed his own Legion and fell to Chaos by his own making.

            Magnus thought in his hubris that he could master the Warp but was just a puppet of the Primordial Annihilator-like all the other Traitor Primarchs.

          • Muninwing

            not knowing that Tzeentch could not be trusted was kinda big…

            nothing moral there.

            if someone offers me a job, and i’m sorting mail in the basement, i’m not a horrible person for working for the murderous Soylent corporation… until i learn what it is they do and decide to stay there anyway.

            all the primarchs were virtually worshipped as demigods. all of them were guilty of hubris. calling out Magnus for his without noting that it was guaranteed that such a fall would happen for all or most of them is disingenuous.

            if you take actions based on the information you have, and others have the information you need to make the right decision, do you get to be judged based on the information you did not have? doesn’t some of that blame fall on those who could have actually made a difference?

            in most modern legal systems, intent is a much or more important than action. if you did not take an action to harm someone, and did not want them harmed, then you are not guilty of harm. even if you wanted to harm but not kill, and the other person died, it’s a different charge than murder.

            Magnus wanted to help his legion. he used the tools at his disposal, with the intent to do good. they were not the only legion to incorporate Librarians. how do you delineate without the critical knowledge of what exactly chaos is?

          • evillsvain

            If Magnus had told Emperor that he had been talking to creatures of the Warp and that they had offered him power then it would be different. Then Magnus would have had a clean conscience and Emperor would be judged by his response. But Magnus chose not to reveal that information because he wanted the power even after Emperor told him at least twice not to.

            Also, other Legions had Librarians but only Thousand Sons (before Word Bearers) used sorcery (as in forbidden ancient rituals, invocations and lore they were supposed to destroy and not collect) and brought creatures from the Warp (tutelary/daemons) to help them with that knowledge.

            Magnus and his Legion might not have known about the true nature of the Chaos (or just ignored the whole question) but they did know that they weren’t supposed to be dealing with sorcery and warp creatures – Legions were after all created to destroy Xenos and all false religions.

            But really, even though this is a fun discussion there’s no point in arguing over this. You can say that Magnus didn’t understand what he was doing and I that he had an idea and still did it for personal gain-the fluff supports both views. It just depends which fluff you choose to believe and how you imagine the setting in your own mind – and that’s the great thing about 40k fluff.

          • Muninwing

            ultimately, you’re right. it has a lot to do with our own morality and thoughts on fault and guilt as well.

            is a good or right action, even if someone else considers it wrong, a moral thing to take?

            if you discover something (such as a talent), but other people think it’s bad, does that make it bad?

            if you think of sorcery as a scientific thing, and the connection to warp-entities as a utilization of resources, then nothing Magnus did was against any religious or anti-xeno rules. no other cases were open to them, and so no other definitions were applicable. we know that chaos is the baddies… but no indication of that was available in Magnus’s time.

            morality, like responsibility and like loyalty, is taught. if you never find out that something is considered unacceptable or outright wrong, you will not treat it a such. the only one who knew was Empy, and he never made himself clear.

            i’ll defend Magnus, because i think that so much of what went wrong in the Great Crusade was due to the limited forethought and the secrecy of the Emperor… probably resulting in his superiority to the Primarchs, and the arrogance that comes from understanding that superiority.

            i was not a huge fan of the GW take on the Emperor, personally… because he should, more than anything, convey just how lonely and isolated nearly 40,000 years of isolation from humanity in his exceptionality would make him. his failures to properly communicate with the Primarchs (in many ways) should have been out of the awkwardness of a kindergarten teacher suddenly trying to explain the pedagogy of teaching the ABCs to teenagers.

          • evillsvain

            Now, my own stance on morality of things isn’t as black and white it might have come across in this discussion 😀

            I think one must use a bit different scope of morality with Emperor and Primarchs and 40k in general- a lot of the stuff they did is pretty much NOPE! and that’s just before Heresy 😀

            Emperor made many mistakes no doubt but I think Magnus made an even bigger mistake in thinking that he could do things that even Emperor wouldn’t. If the Man who is the Galaxy’s most potent psychic being and has created you and your super-human legion with arcane science tells you that “don’t trust Warp entities and don’t do sorcery” you might take heed but Magnus didn’t. Quite biblical “original sin” story actually.

            I don’t know if you’ve read The Master of Mankind but I thought that Emperor and his motives were presented quite well in the book. Everything he does is to finish his grand plan to save Mankind and everyone in that plan, even Astartes, Custodian or Primarch, is just a means to an end without much, if any, feelings attached on Emperors part. A bit like a scientist using lab rats to find a cure for a disease but on a cosmic level.

          • Muninwing

            yeah, i get it. and it’s a fun argument to have. i’ll still consider Emps as a negligent adult who tries to shortcut it with a kid who is old enough to be told the truth.

            i generally like the ADB take on Empy as well… but one factor i didn’t get from him that i did from other sources (like the subtext of “The Last Church”) is a popular theme elsewhere and a concept i’ve seen in action.

            see… my brother is a genius. like, a legitimate one, the smartest person i’ve ever met. tried to teach me calculus when i was 14 and he was 16, and i understood what he was doing despite not having had middle-level algebra yet. explained (and expanded on) the dimension concepts in A Wrinkle in Time when i was 9 and he was 11 with info that i wouldn’t see again until i read Flatland (which he’d never read, he just thought about things like that).

            and he’s hard to deal with. he’s struggled in relationships, even had to try to tone down certain things just to be able to relate to people.

            some writers have done the same with Superman. power and lifespan make for differences in self-perception, meaning that relating to others is… hard.

            and some — good and bad — writers and their product have done this with vampires. eternity and immortality are guaranteed to cause you to consider time in a fundamentally different way. ADM does a great job showing that the Emperor is, by experience, utilitarian and detached, with a concept of time that defies our consideration.

            but he’s isolated. he has no equal. maybe his stoicism and focus could be seen as a result of “turning off” instead of dealing with the very real effects of his age and having watched generations and empires rise and fall over nearly 40,000 years. his very ability to experience humanity at its core — our emotional connections, values, richness, what we define humanity as being fundamentally about — is withered.

            i had hoped that we’d see his exploration of the Primarch project akin to that perfectionist guy who never wanted kids and suddenly has one and turns into the biggest softie… until his kids grow up and disappoint him. only on a whole new level. instead, he reads as a guardian robot with a single focus, and not even realizing how little he resembles the people he is protecting. i’d love to see his rivalry with the Chaos Gods as the challenge that rallies his enthusiasm, or the Golden Throne project being all about his reentry into humanlike joy, not just a means to an end.

            but maybe that’s just me.

            if he’s just huge and powerful and monolithic, he’s uninteresting. if he’s ultimately human, as is implied by his numerous avoidable mistakes but not all the other elements that could have been there, he’s suddenly far more a sympathetic protagonist with nuance and layers.

          • benn grimm

            For sure, the 1k sons with their helpful daemon special friends probably predate even Erebus. I guess the ‘unwittingly’ part is the clincher; pretty much half the primarchs were corrupted at inception, they just needed a bit of a push.

          • evillsvain

            True but with Magnus the line is very blurry so to speak. Emperor told him about the Warp (admittedly not everything he knew but still) when they met and warned him about its power long before Nikea. Magnus ignored him and thought he could master the Warp. So maybe hubris would be better word than unwitting pawn with Magnus and that makes him guilty in my books.

          • benn grimm

            For sure. It’s kind of an Icarus/Daedalus type deal, yeah he warned him, but did he really have to trial his incredibly dangerous new invention on his son? The Emprah built Magnus, with a not particularly glorious task in mind for him at the end of it all. He built him to be the second most powerful psyker in existence, then got mad with him for using said power. Guilty Magnus may well be, but by the same token, so is the Emprah.

          • evillsvain

            But He did it to save Mankind from itself- and He would’ve gotten away with it too if it weren’t those meddling kids 😉

            Yeah, Emperor didn’t value Primarchs as anything more than what they were created for-tools for the task, nothing else. Thunder Warriors were created for one task and then “disposed” and if everything had gone as planned no doubt that same fate would’ve waited Space Marine legions and ultimately Primarchs themselves. Master of Mankind pretty much tells that.

            I think lure of Chaos had a big part in Heresy but I would like to think that deep down at least the Traitor Primarchs guessed that the minute they were not needed anymore it could be “back to test tube with you” for them.

          • benn grimm

            Lol.) Yeah totally. Horus was a smart guy, he realised what the Emp had in mind and beat him to the punch. The rest is just imp propaganda. Chaos loves us, chaos saves…what do you mean you didn’t want tentacles? Gosh, some folks are so ungrateful…;)

          • Muninwing

            chaos loves us…

            well, yeah. chaos is made of raw emotion.

            meaning that it’s far more sentimental than the Emperor ever was.

            working for Empy gets you part of a bigger picture, but no gratitude and no real value.

            working for Chaos gets you all the pleasure / wealth / fame / beauty / lesions / experiences / glory that you could possibly want… but best addresses the real underlying need.

            chaos loves you. chaos makes you feel like a valued member of the team, like an important individual. a good manager is not merely efficient — they need to connect with and care about their staff. if they don’t, morale suffers.

          • benn grimm

            I think a comparison could be made between Chaos and David Brent, no, no, here me out; they’re both bad managers, they both really want to be liked, they’re both pretty rock n roll, albeit in a slightly embarrassing 80s revival kind of way. They both sow seeds of contention between their minions and they both corrupt vast swathes of reality with the stuff of madness…;)

          • Muninwing

            i actually think that if the 4th ed codex wasn’t so godawfully bad, my old Thousand Sons would be my primary army. i love a good story of moral equivalence and temptation, i love the comparative morality of the extremist imperium versus the well-intentioned but subverted branches of chaos. there’s so much there, it’s fertile ground for so many ideas.

            but on the table, i like to actually win sometimes. and the 1KS have virtually nothing they could do to not be bottom-tier except in that narrow window at the end of 7th where they got a freakin’ daemon primarch.

            i’ve got 4-5 squads of rubrics, a whole possessed conversion i started back in 3.5 (back, and in the hopes of the return of, when you could choose their mutation… discs for everyone!), and some other great stuff. but they are just not worth trying to play without some serious investment now, and that’s well after they sucked worse for nearly a decade.

          • benn grimm

            New codex on the way though soon, fingers crossed it’ll be a good un, they’re definitely one of the cooler/deeper legions. I’m really enjoying the narration of Khayon atm in the Black Legion books.

          • Muninwing

            they were all stolen by chaos. they were all set up to grow on the planets that matched some nefarious endgame.

            that only half of them fell to chaos is actually pretty good, given the circumstances.

          • benn grimm

            Yeah, good point. Maybe it was more than half, we just don’t know about it. A certain Calibanite lion perhaps…

          • Muninwing

            nah, the jabs at the DA are overdone. every source except the least reliable one written by the worst author show that they were unequivocally loyal.

            i like foisting off blame on some others, though… like the Khan, or Gulliman himself. wouldn’t it be a kick in the blue trousers if it turned out that Rowboat himself had nearly been turned, or had accepted chaosified help to come back (with a cost due)? certainly take the pompous wind out of his sails…

          • benn grimm

            There’s definitely something not quite right about Papa Smurf. I mean look at the size of him…

          • Aurion Shidhe

            pg 149 of the ebook…to be exact. That’s where Typhon ruminates over his enlightenment by his “kinsman” Erebus.

          • benn grimm

            That’s quite a memory you have there dude, good job! 🙂

  • Koen Diepen Van

    You know gw reallly really really needs to redo the standard CSM kit.

    • Edouard Decaen

      40,000% agree

  • Snord

    Bollocks to Chaos. You’ve completely ignored the Orks, who were there long before GW resorted to evil Marines. Chaos is popular primarily because it’s more power armour, only ‘dark’. Actually, it’s a tired and repetitive theme, and far less interesting than the Imperium’s interaction with the Xenos races.

    Okay, so that’s overstating it somewhat, but the the idea that Chaos is somehow the ‘best’ opposition to the Imperium is highly subjective.

    • Mike Forrey

      Have to agree here. If you want chaos shoved down your throat all edition go play fantasy battle. They can’t ever get enough with chaos this and that. If anything chaos should be the least threatening seeing as how few of them there are supposed to be still.

      • E65

        Well, if its a hot Slaaneshy chick, OK then.

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        Sadly they killed fantasy. But I get what you’re saying.

      • Muninwing

        in theory… legions numbers in tens of thousands. or more. and the chapters to fall to chaos over 10,000 years would revitalize their numbers.

        in reality, they have not explored enough of the actual mechanics to explain it, and that’s bugged me for over a decade.

        i agree that they should have expanded it out a bit… maybe made there be a recruitment drive as part of the chaos incursions. but i don’t think they are miniscule numbers.

        seriously…

        consider: Rubric Marines being made because they are trying to reverse the curse… and they need new meat to experiment on. so they recruit humans from certain worlds with promises of power, and for the most part they get eaten by the warp.

        or Emperor’s Children visiting planets, and challenging the populace to contests. some might be eating (or other indulgences), some might be fighting. either way, they have fresh meat to sway to fall, and they can induct a whole new batch.

        or just taking all the people not butchered in rage — the failures, in other words — by the World Eaters, and raising them to breed gladiator-style children, and induct them when they win a season.

        it actually makes Chaos make more sense, as well as setting them up to be better antagonists.

        • evillsvain

          The wars following the Heresy and destruction of their homeworlds and a lot of their equipment followed by 10.000 years of exposure to Warp and constant warfare in the Eye of Terror and allover the Galaxy would probably cut the Traitor Legions numbers and mutate the gene-seed un-usable pretty quickly. GW has never given any good overall explanation how the old Legions could still be around thousands of strong and probably never will. There will always be as many Traitor Marines as the story needs 😉

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            There’s one GW-provided explanation: time, or more specifically, entropy, doesn’t have any uniform effect in the Warp. Also, more than a few Warbands rely on stolen Geneseed to bolster their numbers.

          • evillsvain

            Loyalist Chapters use great amounts of care and energy to keep their gene-seed safe and pure and still many of the Chapters have flaws and failings from mutation after 10.000 years.

            Traitor Marines on the other hand don’t seem to worry about storing, collecting or cultivating gene-seed. Most of the stories about them harvesting the gene-seed from the fallen enemies is because they sacrifice it to their Gods and not using it to make new marines.. Fabius Bile and some other traitor apothecaries have been breeding etc. new marines but still, few individuals providing all the millions of marines the Legions should’ve needed along the Long War is pretty far fetched – but it’s 40k so maybe it’s just that ;D

          • Muninwing

            i think they make a great villain, right up until you get to the nitty-gritty.

            don’t look too closely, and they work really well though.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            See also: broken timelines, such that for all you know, the Traitor Astartes you face tomorrow could be fresh from the Siege of Terra or stragglers from one of Abaddon’s Black Crusades.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Sometimes is good old Warptimy-whimy spitting CSM out 100’s, 1000’s years when they only experienced hours or days. Presumably many CSM still have two Progenoid Glands to make more Marines in the same way Loyal Astartes do. There are quiet a few stories of legions stealing geneseed to bolster numbers. And, of course you then have more ‘recent’ Marines becoming renegade ala Corsairs.

          • evillsvain

            Yeah, Red Corsairs fluff is very well detailed about how they get new marines, no problem with that (always liked the Badab War and Corsairs fluff as one of the best in 40k 🙂

            It’s the Traitor Legions of old that are the ? regarding gene-seed and recruitment. Sure, in some stories the Heresy happened just yesterday for the marines involved but in as many stories they’ve fought so long that they don’t even remember who they were. Also by the fluff most of the traitor legions gene-seed is mutated beyond repair (especially the God specific Legions) so just implanting organs to a normal human wouldn’t probably work
            like with loyalists. And you get only 2 progenoids from a marine and those traitors have been getting killed in pretty great numbers along the years never getting chance to collect them!

            But, the lack of info also gives all power to the player so it’s not so bad I think. If you want your Plague Marines to be born from some festering cocoons filled with mutated organs that leech into occupants while they incubate then it’s all good 🙂

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          Don’t forget: after the Sundering(?), the World Eaters started handing out the Nails like candy to whichever Legionaries wanted them/got captured by them. And most of the Traitor and Renegade Chapters maintain recruiting worlds, regardless of whether they build Fortress-Monasteries. And then there are Fabius and the Alpha Legion.

    • benn grimm

      Every race/faction is the biggest threat to the imperium in its own codex. Nids are definitely the biggest threat to the galaxy ever, but so are Necrons, Orks, Chaos etc etc, possibly not Tau though…;)

      • Drpx

        Necrons were a galactic threat when they were the tools of nebulous star gods who sought to sever the warp from reality. Now they’re more of a tripping hazard. “Crap, it’s another tomb world.”

        • benn grimm

          Lol, couldn’t have put it better myself. From terrifying ancient terminators to derp-bots in just one lame codex…

        • Snord

          That’s very funny – nicely put…

    • E65

      Go have some fungus beer and calm the eff down.

    • Drew_Da_Destroya

      WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!

    • Muninwing

      the Orks are the only non-imperium group large enough to be a serious danger.

      Chaos, though, takes some subtlety. between raiders, cults, defections, century-long plots… they really are the only coherent or intelligent threat to the Imperium in any numbers, and that’s guessing that you can truly understand the extremist-pathological-insanity of something twisted by raw emotion and corrupted by daemons.

      your comment about “less interesting than the imperium’s interaction with the xenos” is… i don’t know… sort of off-topic? or maybe dipping into a different kind of scifi, or a different IP? there’s not a lot of “interaction” that isn’t at the tip of a blade or barrel of a gun.

      maybe that’s why you think that “more power armor, only dark” has anything to do with their popularity. because that’s not it at all.

      and “long before” is… also problematic.
      – “Waaargh: Orks” published in 1990
      – Realm of Chaos: published in 1988

      orks are comic relief interspersed with violence. like an 80s action-comedy. and just as forgettable sometimes.

      • Lord Blacksteel

        I’m a fan of the Green Tide and the Warp both but Orks were the primary antagonists in Rogue Trader: published in 1987

        • Muninwing

          that’s true.

          but that’s also the initial line, before the expansion. and only a year before chaos took shape in the world. so the “long before” is still just not true.

      • Snord

        Chaos isn’t subtle. It’s a cliche. “Oh no, he’s been subverted by Chaos”. That’s about it.

        I meant ‘interaction’ on all levels. Chaos Marines are just the reverse of good Marines, and battles are power armour versus power armour.

        “Waaargh Orks” wasn’t a rule supplement, it was a bizarre (but brilliant) fluff supplement. The first WH40K rules supplement was “Chapter Approved Book of the Astronomican”, which had Marine and Ork army lists. Da Boyz got there first…

        I acknowledged I was overstating the point; there are definitely cool aspects to Chaos (Nurgle!), although most of them seem to fit more naturally into fantasy. I just don’t accept the article’s premise that Chaos is the definitive enemy of the Imperium. The fact that a sizable proportion of Chaos players have been whining about being hard done by since 3rd Edition also influences my attitude.

        • Muninwing

          yeah… nothing you said was remotely relevant.

          orks beat chaos in by a few months. doesn’t mean they were “there long before” nor does it mean that your simplistic downplaying of chaos is anywhere near true.

          if you think that the fact that they wear power armor means they are the same, then you have very little assessment of the differences. either more hyperbole, or sheer ignorance.

          if “subverted by chaos” is cliche, then try looking at how it actually plays out in the fluff. Orks are little more than amusing fighters with bad accents — that’s actually a far larger cliche.

          chaos… it’s the understanding of how events alter perception: the corruption of your most dearly-held values… the allure of a well-intentioned questionable decision… the complexity of a no-win situation… the moment of realization that you’ve changed or lost something important to you as a person… losing yourself in a series of habits that interfere with other aspects of life… these are fundamental questions of existence, explored by the concept of embodied emotions and the change that they cause. it’s themes of addiction, social standing, hubris, deadly sins, consequence, rifts in friends and families, realization of deceit, questioning your values as you grow up, extremism, independence, hierarchy…

          i could go on.

          i think you’ve become so jaded against chaos players to bother with even basic consideration here.

          and why are you so annoyed at them? they had a fun, flavorful book with variance and personality… and GW replaced it with the dullest and least interesting product they ever wrote. look at the end-of-7th releases for chaos, and compare that to their books in 4th and 6th. in fact, compare the 4th ed book to just about anything else in the game since it was first released — the only worse-quality products that GW has ever released were the first AoS books, and the Wargear supplement that was invalidated a month after its release.

          your counter-intolerance is worse than their legitimate complaints.

  • Atogrim

    Oh for the love of the golden throne folks, know your fluff.

  • Heinz Fiction

    Space Marines aren’t really strong protagonists as they don’t have a strong motivation that drives them. They are more or less brainwashed to serve the emperor and thats it. It’s not like like they fight for personal pride, redemption or their loved ones, so there isn’t anything on the line for them. Sure they may lose their lives but that is just fulfilling their purpose (and what live is this anyway?)

    • benn grimm

      Survival of humanity is a pretty good motivation I would imagine. And emotionally stunted supermen abducted/inducted at an early age are pretty relatable/aspirational to teens. But you still make a good point.

      • Muninwing

        i would love to see more consideration of defining humanity… i think that that should be the theme of new SM books.

        in certain areas, what happens when you have a localized chapter that doesn’t travel much, and their region is peaceful? like the Edo era samurai, disasters are just waiting to emerge.

        but what else could it be…?

        the actual fall of a Space Marine to chaos, mapped to their own awareness. realizing that the truth is nuanced instead of black-and-white opens the gate for the Four. miss too many bolter drill exercises, and start to think and let the mind wander… then reconsider some of the truths you’ve been told… then look for more information…

        SM who realize that they have nothing in common with the people they are protecting, and as a result either strive to understand humanity, or to look inward and become truly post-human.

        • benn grimm

          The ADB Black Templar book, forgotten the name, the Night Lords trilogy and the Soul Drinkers trilogy I would say start to get at what you are describing. The Soul Drinkers in particular really explore what a nasty and unjust place the imperium is, even to its favoured sons. ADB I find to be the best author (so far) for exploring that slightly awkward relationship between marines and the humans they come into contact with. Love the idea of peaceful Samurai Marines, or marines who have become truly post human, you should definitely pitch that to BL…:)

          • Muninwing

            sadly, it’s probably covered in their thinking by the Iron Hands…

            but 300 pages of cyborg superhumans considering how much humanity they have left in them might be fascinating, or could turn readily into navel-gazing and scraps of code without getting to any real war-story action like the fans want.

          • benn grimm

            Less bolter porn, more consideration of humanity would be great. Pretty rare in a warhammer novel though and probably with good reason. Priests of Mars wasn’t too bad for a bit of cyborg navel gazing, worth checking out if you’re at all interested in the ad mech’s never ending quest for STDs. Sorry I mean STCs…gosh darn auto correct…;)

    • Dennis J. Pechavar

      It’s all about the Imperial Guard. Common humanity against the horrors of the galaxy.

      • Muninwing

        i wish they’d push the IG as the real heroes.

        any Guardsman that doesn’t soil themselves during a chaos invasion or a hive fleet landing is the definition of a hero.

        though GW has hinted that that’s not their way of thinking anymore. the change to the Horus/Emperor fight did that subtly.

        one lone guardsman surrounded by gods. still stands up to defend the Emperor. gets vaporized, sure, but proves that a nobody is still capable of being a hero.

        replacing him with a perpetual and a whole backstory… kinda lame… an attempt to add depth to something that already resonated, and losing the resonance in the process.

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          Ollanius Pius was a great idea. Too bad GW went full ultramarine and replaced with a terminator and then a custodes?

          • Muninwing

            pretty sure it was originally a marine/terminator, then became a nameless guardsman… and the current fleshed-out background involves a perpetual weighing a vision of the future.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Either way it’s bad. I thought it started as a Guardsman then went marine.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    “I believe it will only be a matter of time till we see World Eaters and Emperor’s Children codexes”

    I don’t. During WH-Tv interview about the Chaos Codex that question was asked in the chat. The response boiled down to they won’t due to their background. The premise/explanation being that unlike the Death Guard and Thousand Son, who are still mainly operating as independent Legions. The Emperor’s Children and World Eaters are now shattered as fighting legions; EC by large down to their own internal excess and both, even more so, after the Skalathrax incident, where Kharn first went off on one. EC have become hired guns and WE run round in small warbands do the Blood for the Blood God thing.

    Of course, the background for them could well be moved forward and have them forming more coherent legions again, but that seems very unlikely.

    • Fergie0044

      Oh really? That’s very surprising. Sure the same could be said for DG and TS, with Typhus and Ahriman having their own separate forces from the primarches. But that can be hand waved away with some new fluff.

      I suspect its more about people wondering if they should buy the current chaos codex or wait a while for the legion of their choice to come out. Of course GW would rather you buy the chaos one now and then the EC or WE one in a years time.

      Surely we’ll see Fulgrim and Angorn models within the next 2 years with appropriate legion releases too?

      • Diagoras

        Yeah, this isn’t a problem. A very significant portion of the Thousand Sons were exiled after the Rubric, who then formed their own cabals across the galaxy to serve their own ends. All it took to gather them in one place was mutual hatred, a small speech from Magnus, and most important of all, plot convenience.

        I really doubt Fulgrim and Angron couldn’t pull their own shattered legions back together. Plus, it’s easy money.

    • Deacon Ix

      So by that logic we can expect a WB codex o/

      Yeah… No… 🙁

    • On the other hand, they always deny anything about future books – then suddenly announce them. Happens all the time.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Oh true for sure.

    • Dooms Day

      Well there primarchs are coming back so a Codex for them is extremely likely. The return of Angron (which is coming) would probably have a bunch of WE going back to him, Fulgrim (whos already causing chaos) would probably have the same). World bearers are also likely, since lorgar is back.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        For sure. Hobbyist are very likely to see more Primarchs, loyal and traitor, be introduced to 40K – if not all 18 of them (yes even the dead ones), via whatever timey-wimey-Aeldari-chaosy-magical means. Does that mean every legion/chapter will get a separate Codex? I really don’t think so; especially with all unit rules coming as part of their kits.

        Additionally, I sure we’ll see equally “primarch-y” type units for every army. As all the armies tend to follow suit. For example, plastic superheavies introduced and now every army has access to some kink of plastic superheavy unit; or plastic flyers brought in, within 18 months-ish every army has access to a flyer of some description.

        • Dooms Day

          I Wouldn’t say the dead ones would return but the alive/missing ones probably will. Lorgar would probably put into the normal CSM codex like grandpa smurf was. But Leman and the lion would just go into there already chapter specific book. rules coming with kits doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be in a codex, it might mean you have to wait abit but

          WE and EC both follow there own god and can very easily get some more unique units, like TS and DG have. WE can get Khrone berserks on Juggernauts for example, WC could get Phoenix Terminators anything is possible.

          Its also very possible all armies would get a primarch like unit, like how Eldar got the avatar of ynnead.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            There’s certain plenty of scope for convoluted stories to bring back “dead” ones – granted they’re unlikely to be top of the list in terms of release order.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          https://youtu.be/aZqmQT89kqU

          Just so long as we get more deliciously introspective internal monologue from Angron/Kharn, similar to this, I’m game.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      If not World Eaters and Emperor’s Children, then Khorne Daemonkin and Slaanesh… Scintillators.

    • Brian Griffith

      Gathering Storm already hinted at Fulrgrim on the move.

      It’s only a matter of time.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Oh for sure, for a model to be done; but that does automatically mean codex – especially since unit rules are coming in kits now. Frankly, in a few years, no doubt most, if not all, the 18 Primarchs will be up and swinging across the 41st Millennium (or are we 43rd now?)

  • BaronVonYoloing

    This is not news! Chaos have been the “primary antagonists” (whatever that means) since at least 6th edition, if not before.

    For all the whining some Chaos players do they are very quick to forget that they probably get the most amount of releases next to the Imperium.

    • The whining comes from that chaos players haven’t had a competitive codex since 3.5 in the early 2000s.

      • BaronVonYoloing

        You mean not broken? 3.5 was an inventive, well intentioned mess that was abused by nearly everyone for “the good stuff”. Same reason Nids lost many biomorphs from 4th ed (My Carnifexes still hurt!), Guard lost doctrines and marines had to have chapter traits removed. (Admittedly they were re-entered later as chapter tactics) This is not new I’m just fed up with some Chaos players insisting that somehow they are worse off than anyone.

        • Correct: competitive == broken.

          All players that have no broken combos will insist they are worse off than everyone. Black Templars players raged black toxic rage when they lost their broken 3rd ed builds. Guard players raged black toxic rage when they lost their broken builds. Eldar had a moment when they weren’t very good and their playerbase cried they were screwed over the worst. Grey Knights players threw a tantrum when they lost their 5th edition super powered codex.

          Not trying to legitimize. Just saying its been about 15 years since chaos players had broken things to teabag others with at tournaments. There are some chaos players today that weren’t even born the last time chaos had busted OP stuff.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            We had that short period when Hellturkeys were amazing.

        • E65

          Pot boiling the kettle black.

    • Muninwing

      let’s consider the recent books differently than in years past, particularly over the last decade.

      Chaos, since the 3.5 codex — which was breakable but not unduly so, and not nearly as bad as many to come after them — have had how many releases?

      – late in 4th ed they got a codex… that gutted the whole army and decided that their focus would be on corsairs instead of chaos legions.

      – the daemons they lost got their own faction book, which was designed to be played differently. not sure that counts, since until 7th it was hard to play the way it used to.

      – then… nothing. lash spam and nurgle bikers. until 6th, when they got a couple new toys… which really just meant cultists and heldrake spam. still a crappy book.

      – and they have the 8th ed book.

      three releases in ten years.

      most got two. but most others got some new models in there, or at least a redo of their core. Chaos got some big beasties that don;t fit into every list, and they got back some cultists with some models. some armies got whole swaths of stuff AND new kits for it all.

      admittedly, Necrons have had… what, two? Orks have had two. Eldar have had three, but also the Iyanden and Harlequin books.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Chaos had:

        3E Codex: Chaos Space Marines
        3.5E Codex: Chaos Space Marines
        4E Marines
        4/5E Daemons
        6E Marines
        6E Daemons
        7E Codex: Khorne Daemonkin
        7E Black Legion
        7E Crimson Slaughter
        7E War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen (Daemons update)

        7E Traitor’s Hate
        7E War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus (Tzeench)
        7E Traitor Legions
        7E Gathering Storm: Rise of the Primarch (Fallen)
        8E Chaos Index
        8E Codex: Chaos Space Marines
        8E Codex: Deathguard

        Chaos has received a bunch of upgrades over the last 15 years. Granted, the power level is a parabola, with the high points being back in 3.5 and in late 7th and 8th but its not like we were bereft of options.

        • Muninwing

          i wasn’t counting the recent warzone books. orks got some of that too, as did others.

          and daemons are a separate army… or were, until the daemonkin reintroduced them. not the same. and that’s by GW fiat

          i did forget about the Black Legion book… but that (and the KDK) is a good parallel to the Iyanden book — it’s only useful in theory if you use that specific subdivision.

          now, if you consider the usefulness and power level of those updates… then you’ll notice a trend. chaos gets a lot of stuff

          but most of it sucks.

          my personal theory is that they just don’t get it. as in, they have a general idea of what it is, but they don’t see the bigger picture or systemic complexity.
          the removal for slaanesh and inclusion of the GHR in AoS screams this.

          if a good writer who has a good idea for the army were to come along, maybe they’d get fewer “try-and-fail” products.

    • rrooster1977

      I think a lot of whining comes from the fact that the model releases Chaos gets are off the wall fringe stuff. Lately it has been stuff that is exclusive to specific legions. Meanwhile their basic heavy weapon models are finecast resculpts of the same metal models they had in 3rd edition, Chosen had some snap fit models in Dark Vengeance but never saw a proper kit, and same with Cultists. Chaos has gotten a lot of expansion books (half of which just duplicate each other) but their model releases are very lackluster compared to other armies who get their entire line updated. Frankly every army pales in model release comparison to Imperial Space Marines. They have plastic everything.

  • Kenneth Portner

    CSM are still underpowered, no?

    • Brian Carraway

      In comparison to Ultramarines, yes, but they do well against everybody else. Looks like DG could elevate Chaos a good deal though with all the mortal wounds shenanigans, but that is kind of like saying Ultramarines elevated SM as a whole when in fact, it only elevated Ultramarines.

  • kevinharoun

    “…Chaos shouldered on…”

    The word you, or your spellchecker, were looking is “soldiered”.

    • Stephen Henry IV

      The sentence you were looking for has a “for” before the “is”. 🙂

  • marxlives

    Always felt the galaxy itself was the antagonist in 40k, rather than a faction. Anyway the intent of this article seems to be a prep piece to let Xenos players know that they won’t be updated as much as Chaos and Imperium. But if you spent money on building that Xenos force, don’t worry, it’s all for the sake of keeping that narrative “sizzle”.

  • Rainthezangoose

    What I would like to see more then anything is a Choas “NOT daemons/space marines” book. I mean lets face it space marines are supposed to be super rare, and renegade ones rarer still. Most of the “traitors” would be legions of lost and the damned. The fact its 2017 and we still have ZERO talk of a Renegade book is disgusting.
    (has no bais, dosn’t have 3000pts of converted renegade imperial guard)

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      The Chaos Marine IS the renegade codex, honestly. otherwise you would just be playing the SM codex with spikey models.

      • Rainthezangoose

        You didn’t read my post. I want renegade NOT space marines.

    • Brian Griffith

      Super rare?

      There’s hundreds of chapters at a thousand marines a pop.

      • Rainthezangoose

        That comment must be a joke right? Think about how many people are on earth today, there are 1000x more people living on any given planet in 40k due to technological advancements such as hives as well as entire communities of billions living In space colonies. “we are the Imperium of man, we count not the lives of men but planets”

        But yet tell me again that “hundreds” of chapters of “a thousand” space space marines wouldn’t be rare, space marines are a rain drop in the ocean when compared to the entirety of the Imperium and a single star in the universe when compared to ALL life in the 40k setting.

        • Brian Griffith

          By your reasoning, we should all be playing armies of Imperial sanitation workers.

          • Rainthezangoose

            That’s not at all what I said. I didn’t say there shouldn’t be chaos codex CSM of CD. But considering some of the stranger stuff we had, like two separate books for Mechanicus and loads of subfraction books, to be missing what would be in actuality the primary antagonist for the Imperium, just seems daft. I always figured it could have been the in the Imperial Guard codex at least!. As a sort of apply these special rules and restrictions to your army and it a renegade/traitor Imperial guard army. C:

          • Brian Griffith

            Oh, were you unaware there’s already a Renegades and Heretics list for 8th? Forge World put it out in their indexes. It really needs some polish, but it’s there. Traitor Guard. Bob’s your uncle for $25.

          • Rainthezangoose

            I’m fully aware of that list, but the problem is that half the player base still refuse to acknowledge forgeworld rules are “proper” and form what I can tell was out of date for all of 7th. The list is also grossly underpowered compared to renegade guard and missing lots of units for no reason. Not the same. It felt more like a “use this till the real codex comes out kind of deal”

  • DoctorBored

    We’ll see what happens. Chaos has a long ways to go to being realized as a proper competitor to the poster boys of GW.

    It seems like the whole ‘Chaos is Winning and everything is doomed’ thing worked so well for AoS that they’re bringing it to 40k too. Not complaining, it’s just amazing that it took so long for them to come to that conclusion.

  • Necron_Lord

    That is why the Drukhari need a Vect release so bad. Every other faction has a model for their leaders who are the epitome of their faction, only DE don’t. With the last codex we even lost the rules for the majority of DE SCs which a lot of people made models for in 5e. I can almost guarantee that a Vect model done right would sell like hot cakes!

    • Dennis J. Pechavar

      A Dark Eldar Vect model that is both vehicle and single model would be amazing! Some of the conversions for a proper Vect model from years ago are amazing.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Vect was eliminated, from what I heard, because the sculptor had a good royalties deal with GW. GW decided to stop paying the guy, so they scrapped the model.

      Sad that they haven’t replaced it by now.

    • Simon Bates

      It would be so much easier to do rules for the Dais now too, with the way vehicles work.

  • LibertineIX

    Now with the playing field becoming equal, God vs God, characters need to be killed off. They already have the strong protagonists and antoganists but you can’t just keep bringing them back or it’ll end up as stale and boring as Warmachine lore (in my opinion, of course) and their strength will just be a norm. When James Swallow was working on the second BA omnibus he was hoping they’d give him the opportunity to kill Fabius. I can only hope that something like that pops up…in regards to rules, they need to give Word Bearers something better if we see individual codices.

    • Necron_Lord

      True dat. If not Lorgar, at least Erebus or Kor Phaeron

      • LibertineIX

        I think killing Lorgar would send ripples throughout the Warp so it would be the best course of action despite him being my absolute favorite Primarch haha. Erebus or Kor Phaeron need to go along with Lorgar, preferably Erebus, because that would negate a “predecessor” and Kor Phaeron is only getting older and isn’t full on space marine.

  • luke-vdv

    God that old artwork is beautiful. GW should use it more often instead of always the super clean pictures with perfect character proportions.

  • Юрий Светличный

    DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!