Goatboy’s 40k: Nova Open Winner – Andrew Gonyo’s Killer List

Goatboy here again and another Nova Open has come and gone. Time to study the list that went the distance.

We have another repeat Invitational/Open winner with a pretty rough list this time around.

Andrew Gonyo is well known around the competitive 40k scene as he was the Captain of the ETC team these last few years and is a constant high finisher in most events.  He was known for some Tau nonsense in the last edition but 8th has had him bring out the Army men with a well oiled Imperium/Cadian force that is pretty dang brutal.

There was one small mistake in his list in that he listed a Commissar as his warlord and still took the extra Command Points from Creed.  As the Imperium side of things doesn’t have access to some sweet stratagems it isn’t nearly that big of a deal as it only gave him a few more rerolls here and there.  As he has a few commissars the lack of morale issues would mean his Command points were mostly to reroll some key rolls – but personally I think it is just a simple mistake and not an issue at all.

The Winning List

Let’s look at the list and see if you an figure out why it is so brutal.

Astra Militarum Battalion – Cadian Flavored (A bit Salty and very bland)
HQ: Creed
HQ: Primaris Psyker
HQ: Primaris Psyker
Elite: Commissar – Warlord
Elite: Commissar
Elite: Astropath
Elite: Astropath
Troop: 40 Conscripts
Troop: 40 Conscripts
Troop: 40 Conscripts
Heavy Support: Heavy Weapon Squad – 3 Mortars
Heavy Support: Heavy Weapon Squad – 3 Mortars
Heavy Support: Heavy Weapon Squad – 3 Mortars
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot Shot Volley, Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot Shot Volley, Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot Shot Volley, Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot Shot Volley, Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot Shot Volley, Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Elite Detachment (A bit more stale flavor)
HQ: Elysium Company Commander
HQ: Elysium Company Commander
Elite: Elysium Sniper Squad, 3 Sniper Rifles
Elite: Elysium Sniper Squad, 3 Sniper Rifles
Elite: Elysium Command Squad, Plasma Guns X 4
Elite: Elysium Command Squad, Plasma Guns X 4
Troop: Elysium Infantry Squad (10 guys), Frag/Krak Grenades
Troop: Elysium Infantry Squad (10 guys), Frag/Krak Grenades
Fast Att: Seraphim X 5, Inferno Pistol X 4
Heavy Support: Heavy Weapon Squad – 3 Mortars – Cadians
Heavy Support: Heavy Weapon Squad – 3 Mortars – Cadians

Supreme Command Detachment (Adding a bit of the spice with the pain in the arse Saint)
HQ: Saint Celestine
HQ: Primaris Psyker
HQ: Primaris Psyker
HQ: Primaris Psyker
HQ: Primaris Psyker
Elite: Astropath

Command Points: 8

Why It Works

If you can’t figure out why this is good right now – let’s spell it out for you a bit.  Its easier to spell it out with what it can do.

  • Smites – 6 100% real ones and 3 Pseudo ones like old Brimhorrors (casts on 1d6 not 2d6 but same damage output)
  • No LOS Guns – 15D6 Str 4 shots that can get a lot of Reroll 1’s to hit and other fun stuff at 48″ range – who needs wyverns when you can have cheaper bodies
  • 120 Obj Secured Troops that are “immune” to leadership and morale issues thanks to a guy in a trench coat
  • Lots of deep strike problem solvers in Plasma Command Squads and Seraphim Inferno Pistols.
  • Very good for point vs damage output Tanks to pump out the damage, cause target priority issues, and again cheap cheap cheap (Taurox)
  • Oh and the Saint herself who can be a pain in the butt with her double move, damage output, and lack of dying like a proper super character should
  • Random Snipers to help take out other characters as needed.
  • Bubble wrap from hell with the Conscripts keeping all the bad guys at bay and the order potential given to said Conscripts.

Its pretty easy to see how this army does well at the Nova mission set up with the ability to always hurt the opponent, cover the table in bodies to keep your opponent at bay, and just have answers for anything that comes into play.  Progressive missions, choice of Secondary options, and the Butchers bill you can generate turn after turn means this list will just kick the crack out of a Nova environment. You can see where most likely the upcoming FAQ and other thoughts might change this list as this is another prime example of “character” abuse in that while the majority of the army is basic dudesmen – the sheer damage output is really controlled by a few characters who present special problems for any army.  Let’s go over the things that will probably need to be looked at.

Problem Units

Mortars – too cheap for the damage output and not needing LOS.  They should have had some kind of rule if you don’t have LOS it is -1 to hit for you or something.  Or just increase the point cost.  I think they run 9 points a mortar for a d6 str 4 gun that has 48″ and doesn’t need to see you to hit you with a 4+.  Rough stuff indeed and there are even meaner lists with 8+ of them to rain on anyone’s parade.

Conscripts – are another consistent issue with most likely the resolution isn’t increasing their point cost but somehow making the Commissar not work on them.  If they had morale issues – like blobs of trainees should have – it wouldn’t nearly be an issue as you could do some damage, make more flee and quickly gut the bubble wrap.

Smite – is also an issue as well as they have a ton.  Sure there is ways to mitigate it with a too close Culexius but it is still hard for any army without that answer to deal with it.  The Malefic lord issue is also a big problem as well but I suspect some point changes coming for them as 30 is just way to low for a smite/summoning machine.

With a new AM book coming will see how long these types of armies stay popular.  I have always said you really shouldn’t be building something crazy if you find a too cheap combo.  I would wait until the real books come out to see what you can and cannot do.  I think the second place army was a massed Daemon bomb with something like 13 Malefic lords, the Super chicken from Forgeworld, and a plethora of Brims and some Renegades.  It followed the same sort of build as this one with some non LOS shooting options, lots of bodies and of course as many Smites say you can ram down someone’s throat.

Congrats to Andrew for winning both sides of the event and kicking butt with some Army men on the table top.

~What do you think of the winning list folks?

  • Carey_Mahoney

    Would be interesting to see actual pictures of this army on the tabletop.

  • Koen Diepen Van

    At least it’s a actual army. Unlike those flyer and charcter spamm lists.

    • Adam Richard Corrigan

      Agreed, if it had a few less psykers you wouldn’t really question it all.

    • Valeli

      I agree 100%. I wouldn’t be particularly bitter if I lost to this. It’s just taking some elements, perhaps a bit more heavily than a super-casual list, and using them well.

      I don’t want to see huge nerfs to non-line of sight weapons or anything. Maybe some sort of change to commisars and conscripts I’d be fine with, but nothing that simply kills them. It’s good, but it’s also very characterful to me.

      I could play against this list, loose, and – if the guy was a decent person – have a great time. If you can say that about a list, I don’t think it’s particularly “broken”.

      The only thing I really don’t like in the list is those hideous taurox primes. GW sinned when they made that model, and everyone who bought one+ sinned too. Bleh.

  • Nyyppä

    Well, it’s a fluffy list, with too many psykers but still. It would suck to play against it but it’s still pretty legit.

  • Wampasaurus

    Anyone have a link to the rest of the Top 5 or Top 10 Lists? I always see the winner, but rarely are the other top contenders lists anywhere here

    • Gorsameth

      https://mismatchedplay.com/2017/08/31/nova-invitational-lists/

      Don’t know if there is a better place with lists

      • Wampasaurus

        Thanks! This was just what I was looking for….and also sad how many lists look the same page after page.

        • Gorsameth

          variety will always be somewhat limited at the high end. And having only 3 codexes released probably didn’t help either.

  • eldannardo

    wonder what turn he gets to?

    • Gorsameth

      He plays fast so he does pretty well in getting to high turns.

  • RAKSHA

    Solution bring back templates sweet sweet templates..no more horde spam army list….100% balance…

    • Munn

      And never finish another game due to everyone spacing their units out exactly 2 inches and the obligatory 20minutes of arguing about how many models are under the template.

      • ZeeLobby

        Eh. Having attended many events, everyone blows this way out of proportion. Templates we’re good for the game, both tactically and cinematically. If I could get away with movement trays now I would, lol.

        • heh I agree with Munn. In my games or campaigns, the 20 minutes of arguing over template angle and who was hit was a thing pretty much every time.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I’m not saying that it didn’t happen, I’ve had arguments as well, but of the 100+ tournament games I’ve played it’s only happened 2/3 times to me, and a judge just settled it each time.

          • It was more of an annoyance that had to be encountered in the majority of games.

          • ZeeLobby

            I think it did a good job competitively of differentiating between those who actually considered positioning on the tabletop, and those who just shoveled blobs around. You used to have to consider and plan for the types of weapons your opponents have. Now everything hurts everything, and templates = random. Just seems less interesting to me.

          • I can understand that. It did make positioning matter more yes. I think in more narrative / campaign based games that the templates would be better for me. In competitive pick up games and competitive tournament games though they were just a nightmare to me because dealing with the level of pedantic at those games got to me.

          • ZeeLobby

            Touche. Yeah, I can see how that could be the case. I do miss them more in my narrative gaming than anything else. Nothing makes a game seem less cinematic then when a squad with 4 flamers rolls up in a rhino to a swarm of gaunts and rolls 5 total for hits…

          • Valeli

            This, I’ll acknowledge, is also very true.

          • Mira Bella

            It’s such a shame that a guy like you who organizes all those wonderful campaigns is surrounded by a community of competitive gamers. :/
            I would pay to have someone like you in my community.

          • Hopefully one day playing people on PC becomes easier (or maybe even in Virtual Reality). That would open up who we could play against vastly.

          • Valeli

            I’d be shocked if that happens any time soon. A large part of my 40k fun revolved around painting stuff by hand, and having an excuse to go meet new random people in person.

            PC games can be great, and the internet is certainly more convenient as a venue than driving out to your FLGS…. but it lacks the human something that made 40k stick out to me.

            … or am I just stuck in the 90’s?

          • While I share your sentiment in that I’d rather play people in real life, when your real life opponent pool are mostly wanting to play in ways that you don’t want to, for you to find games that you’d find enjoyable you need to turn to the internet.

          • Valeli

            I’m not saying positioning in 40k didn’t matter… but “competitively” placing multiple squads of 20+ orks with their models all 2″ apart from each other is more tedious and time consuming than strategic or tactical in my book.

          • ZeeLobby

            Except it forced units to actually have a footprint on the table, it meant you had to balance being within an influential bubble or psychic ability range with taking extra hits from templates. Sometimes sacrificing movement of other units, or effecting deployment on the table. I mean there’s no quantifiable number that you can assign to it, but it had more impact than just taking time :/

          • Severius_Tolluck

            2/3 would still be the majority of time that it was even a concern! which is far too much to me, and I wouldn’t want it wasting even a second of my time to hear someone whine about it.

          • ZeeLobby

            sigh, 2 or 3 games. I know it makes a nice little fraction as well, but i meant only in 2 or 3 games did i ever have to college a judge over for a template ruling. Most tournament players are there just to have fun.

            I’ll fix it.

          • marxlives

            I agree I play games with templates all the time and it really doesn’t become a problem.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. It’s like GW took any complaint and removed it from the game, regardless on whether it improves the game or doesn’t.

          • Valeli

            I never had /really/ competitive games since I never went to a tourney, but even so in all my games template took a bunch more time than they should have.

            Cinematically cool? Absolutely. I think the loss is (probably) justified though. … I’ll hold my final verdict on that until I see how OP (or not) future horde armies are when they get their books.

            My biggest issue with template in my casual games was in all the games I had with “that” person, who was really really hung up on maximizing results despite the lack of trophies and wasn’t cool just rolling a 4 whenever it could be avoided.

            Honestly, just by getting me out of arguments with “that” person, I think no templates is a good idea.

        • J Mad

          I hate templates, im glad they are gone.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I get why some people do. Personally throwing more RND on top of RND has just never been a positive thing for me for any game.

          • J Mad

            I understand that, GW could have just made them always 3 hits and 6 hits instead of D3/D6 if the unit size was 10+

          • ZeeLobby

            yeah. I like the scaling with the unit size, but the unpredictability just doesn’t hit any chords with me competitively or narratively.

      • RAKSHA

        I never have problem with that…if will resolve in balanced game play I don’t care how long my opponents move his models…apocalyptic blast don’t care😂…

    • Gorsameth

      Horde spam would not be an issue if they were not effectively fearless.

      Moral was positioned well to counter blobs, and then they made the relevant blobs fearless (Orks, Guard, Nids)

      • J Mad

        This, Those armies should have help but not ignore, IMO no army should ignore the moral phase, but maybe weigh the dice in their favor a bit.

        We see multi 50man blobs b.c they ignore moral.

        • Karru

          Only exception being Tyranids, I would say I agree with you that outright ignoring morale shouldn’t be a thing. You can have things in place, like the Ork Nob rule, but mostly the Ork morale works. They either take Large units to buff their Smaller units, or they take more smaller units with bad Ld.

    • StingrayP226

      The solution is much easier… make more weapons with the extra rolls/hits for large units. There are a few blast weapons with this rule but not many. Put it on a few more anti-horde weapons and problem solved.

    • J Mad

      oh god no, i love not having them, or we can just fix moral, the part of the game that is being ignored.

  • BaronVonYoloing

    Since when can Creed be taken where he isn’t the warlord? Seems a no brainer to me.

    • Severius_Tolluck

      Also confused at how it is worded that the one commissar is not a commissar lord and is listed warlord.

  • Christie Bryden

    once again use of conscripts and bubble effects causing issues, that will probably be handeled in the codex coming.

  • Ragnar_Blackmane

    Sure the list is pretty power-gamey, but at least it’s still fluffier than 90% of the crap you see in high-comp tournies. He even brought Creed and Seraphim instead of pure netlist units and actually has 3 unique factions represented instead of a pure soup list or flyer/character/assassin spam lists.

    Also disagree on mortars. Sure, they are good, but point for point much less efficient at killing infantry than heavy bolter heavy weapon teams are. The LOS ability makes up for it.

    The thing I’m hoping for is that they manage to nerf Conscripts without blanket-nerfing infantry squads too, which are more than balanced IMO and finally worth it. Nerfing the Commissar into uselesness is not the way to do it when you can just take the ability to take orders from Conscripts and give them a commissar related special rule, reducing the effect of his aura on them.

    • Munn

      The seraphim thing is only because they move 24″ a turn and can easily screen Celestine/lock up tanks. It’s NOT a fluff choice.

      • ZeeLobby

        Eh. We’ve just been so beaten down by the fliers and Eldar of 6th/7th that anything not those looks super fluffy.

      • MVBrandt

        Fluff choices can also be competitive. The definition of a fluffy choice is not “something thematic and also not good.”

        • ZeeLobby

          I would argue that there’s some required intent though. Spamming conscripts is “fluffy” but I doubt the intent of the winner was to make a “super cool fluff list”.

    • Jory4001

      As a IG player, I think the best solution for conscripts is the same as command sqauds. You can only take 1 unit of conscripts for every Lord Commissar you have in your detachment. And make the eliye choice commissars only reroll morale or give a minus modifier to the roll instead of ignore it.

      • Karru

        Actually, the best solution would be to make it so that you can take 1 Squad of Conscripts for every 2 Infantry Squads you take. The other thing they could do is make it so that Conscripts always take D6 losses from Morale when under the effect of the Commissar. That way you still need the Commissar to keep them in line, but they now suffer at least some extra damage.

        • Jory4001

          That sounds like it would work well too!

  • Marco Marantz

    Having 25% extra command points than the list should is still cheating. Its also an exploit of the current rules but you can hardly blame a guy for that. GW had every opportunity to get the rules right; I predict though that Commissars will add morale rather than make units immune because that is damn broken. Its also ridiculous that the warlord is an elite when the list has 10! HQ choices.

    • Gorsameth

      When he found out he stopped using them and docked himself a further 2 CP.

      • MVBrandt

        FYI, his list error was caught before he ever spent the extra 2cp. As a penalty, I docked him an extra CP down to 7 total. He felt that was an insufficient penalty and took himself further down to only 5.

    • Karru

      The problem with Commissars only adding Morale has one slight problem. It would have to be something like +5 morale at least before it even makes a dent in the Guard army. With Ld 7 for the Sergeant, suffering 6 Casualties, which is the average your Guard Infantry Squad suffers per round, that unit is toast. You only need to roll a 4 if that unit has a Heavy Weapons Squad and pop goes the weasel.

      With Conscripts, it would be stupidly easy to wipe them. With Ld 4, suffering 4 Casualties mean D6 losses and each loss after that is double damage. The +1 Ld, which it would most likely be, would never be useful in that case.

  • MVBrandt

    FYI, Gonyo’s list error was caught before he ever spent the extra 2cp. As a penalty, I docked him an extra CP down to 7 total. He felt that was an insufficient penalty and took himself further down to only 5.

  • From a narrative standpoint the list is legit to me. Stupid powerful because its taking advantage of some GW-easy mode buttons but thats to be expected at a grand tournament.

    • OldHat

      Same here. I am annoyed at all the “obvious” stuff taken, but at the end of the day that army is still fluffy in a way most tourney lists never are. Still would love to see most of that crap fixed. Elysians are too no-brainer. Conscripts, Commissars, Mortars, etc. Just a lot of stuff needs re-balancing.

      • It just seems like this is always the case. “stuff needs re-balancing” lol.

        • el_tigre

          GW seems to be trying though, which is about 98% more effort than we could have expected even a couple of years ago. I think it’ll still be 6-12 months before we can really see if it’s working.

          • I have to wonder if they are really “trying” though. The same thing happens in AOS, and has historically happened forever. THe difference is that they are putting out changes more rapidly (once a year) instead of making us wait say 4-5 years.

            But their attempts are still laughably easy to exploit within an hour of the material being released.

            I get that perfect balance can never happen but… there needs to be a better way.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, it’s more to “show” that they’re trying. I don’t think they really care. As evident in WMH, I think they’ve also realized that if you push out changes constantly, balance doesn’t really matter, as you’re driving the meta with the new releases. How sustainable that is I don’t know :/…

        • OldHat

          It is a BIG game. We have way too many individual units, factions, rules, etc. Considering it is almost balanced as it stands – as in minor tweaks are needed, not major rules fixes – I am surprised. I think 8th might be the most “complete” 40k thus far, or will be soon. The speed and willingness GW has shown are going to do that and in many ways have already.

          • 8th is close to being really good. There are a few things that prevent that. If they fixed things faster… that would be huge.

          • OldHat

            Well, they are fixing things incredibly fast. So, let things shake out a bit. It hasn’t even been what? 3 months?

          • Age of Sigmar had to go a full year with the same busted stuff and all their fixes did was just make a couple of other things obviously busted.

          • OldHat

            They clearly were prepping for 8th during that time and 40k is the flagship game, so it gets allllllll the love. AoS is not, though now they have shown with GHv2 they are trying.

      • Lebowski1111111111

        how about just not allowing more than 3 of each unit type in an army instead, the constant cycle of nerfing and buffing is not good enough. This list with 3 mortors, 3 tauroxes, simply not as effective.

        • OldHat

          Because they want to sell models. Duh.

    • Nah its a classic power tool box list created for power gaming… not fluffy at all .

    • Strategery.

      > but thats to be expected at a grand tournament.

      my god, the comments are improving!

  • Davis Centis

    I’d MUCH rather lists like this win tournaments than see all-Assassin lists or Storm Raven Spam.

  • Majere613

    I took a look at this issue over on my blog. The TL/DR version is that my favourite fix is to make Commissars reduce Morale losses by their Leadership to a minimum of 1, which means they still work but can’t make Conscripts completely ignore mass casualties.
    https://thetheleniccurriculum.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/the-commissar-conscript-conundrum.html

  • BroxusMaximus

    It seems that every time someone wins a tournament the discussion always becomes how do we nerf the winning list. Yes conscripts should likely be changed, but other than that his list looks fine fine to me. I’ll even give you maybe a squad of mortars should be 30pts instead of 27. Is not as if there are not numerous counters to all of this stuff.

  • Simon Chatterley

    I have no real issues with the list. Sure some stuff is a bit cheap but new book will help.

    I do miss Conscripts being a single unit as part of a regiment though. Felt much fluffier than presently

  • PrimoFederalist

    To fix conscripts just fix commissars. It’s the ability to kill one guy and pass the test that’s the culprit – conscripts are otherwise pointed correctly.

    There are a number of ways to deal with it: I say make him only use that ability once per unit (i.e. he blams! a conscript so they hang around, but after more casualties next turn they start melting as they’re more afraid of what’s killing them than him). Others have suggested having him mitiagate the number of casualties received, etc. The point is, you just need to fix the commissar. That and a slight points readjustment for some of the tanks will work wonders (but even the tanks will be affected by the commissar fix as they rely on the invulnerable conscript bubble wrap).

    • Could also make it so that killing some of them raises their bravery score.

      • Severius_Tolluck

        Yeah, like you shoot up to 3 of your men for a max bonus of +3 or something like that. So you still lose men, but at a slower rate. As that still leaves ld before additional bonuses to be 7

    • Hendrik Booraem VI

      The whole point of the commissar was to give spine to units like conscripts, and the commissar was a position that was highly effective in armies like the Soviets in WWII. I would say the only real fix that should be implemented would be something that limits the range/number of models a commissar can impact.

      For example, add to Summary Execution “A commissar’s aura can only affect one unit of conscripts, or up to 3 infantry squads. If a unit of conscripts has any models within 6″, that unit automatically requires his full attention and his aura does not affect any other Astra Militarum units in range.”

  • Ari Varey

    I called it. Everyone was complaining about the assassin spam, but the guy that played the list said it was weak to horde armies, ie the list that won the tourney before it. Bols even ran an article crying for nerfs. No nerfs took place: Astra Militarum won again.

    Are you going to cry for nerfs for Astra Militarum now? Or are you going to admit that 40k is actually a competitive game with a rock paper scissors meta?

    • Iratus

      I’m going to say that a list designed to win the tournament by playing to it’s strengths won the tournament. So much salt, so little credible arguments.

      • Ari Varey

        Yeah I got no salt over the matter. I play a lot of competitve games and understand what a “meta” is. I’m just calling Bols out on this crap. This guys list is even pretty realistic and dare I say almost fluff. Is Bols going to cry out to nerf fluff armies now?

  • Snord

    If the models are decently painted, then fine. I can’t tell from the video. Otherwise it’s just another “I’ll win it by crunching the probabilities and not skill” list. And as boring as those lists usually are. Seriously – with all the choice there is in terms of cool models, this is what you choose to play with?

    • “I’ll win it by crunching the probabilities and not skill” is the pillar of tournament play. And some argue THE skill.

      • ZeeLobby

        Eh. I still think those who normally win tournaments have skill as well. They just do both. The best players by far have always done both. Take the most effective list with minimal rnd and play it well to each scenario. I don’t think it’s possible to somehow prove that winners are devoid of skill.

        • Maybe. When I was big in tournaments I won way more than I lost. But take away my OP list and I’m not nearly as good. And in fact most of the guys I know that were very good at tournaments were also not that good when devoid of their OP lists as well.

          As such… I don’t think winning tournaments with OP lists is a sign of skill. Its a sign of stacking the deck to me and being good at elementary math.

          • Lebowski1111111111

            ive got no problems with the work you put in before a tournament (ie perfecting a list), playing a big role in the tournament outcome.

          • A lot of times though you can just save the two hours of your life and just give the game to the high powered list and find other things to do with your time.

          • ZeeLobby

            But I mean what were they playing that non-OP list into? Other non-OP lists? And when has the strength of a list in 40K ever really been quantifiable. I’ve done very well with highlander lists and non-highlander events, but power lists will just wreck it. If I play a power list whose read and knows the scenario, it’s usually even worse. I don’t know. I know you’re a jaded pro, but I still think there’s a fair amount of skill that goes into every top table.

          • Fair question. The answer is that against other OP lists or against non-op lists that myself and others like me that I know that dominated local tournaments and placed high at regional GTs are hit or miss.

            Which to me indicates that the list is more important.

          • ZeeLobby

            I don’t know. I’ve seen plenty of people bring their “fun” list and have it not look very fun to begin with. Then there’s the natural faction counters, etc. I’d be more inclined to agree with you if you took a horrible list and they somehow failed to beat you with an OP one. Otherwise all of it can likely be explained as an issue beyond just list building.

            That said, it could be your local meta too. I frequent Nova as much as possible, and people placing at top tables there are really good players (several of whom I’ve played fun games with locally). I guess it just depends on who you know, haha.

          • Well thats because like most anything in our hobby, terms aren’t solid and mean the same thing to everyone.

            To me a “fun” list is a list that does not require a hard counter to play against.

            If you went back in time to when I was doing well in tournaments, everyone in my local meta would have told you I was a good player too.

            Thing is … until there’s a waay to actually measure skill – that is a vapor comment. There’s no way to prove it unfortunately. And thats what I want – a way to prove it.

  • Lebowski1111111111

    3 mortors cost 27 now, 3d6, lets say 12 total shots, you hit with 6, you wound with 3 on a t4 model, than they get full saves, average 1 dead ME, ya your doing it from 48 inches no LOS, but its fine.

    Its time tournaments took actual action and just flat out limit the number of duplicate choices you are allowed in an army instead of constantly nerfing and buffing this unit or that unit.

    • Admiral Raptor

      The Highlander format is nice for that. I can’t understand who would want to paint up a million duplicate units in the first place

  • Admiral Raptor

    At least this list isn’t a fluff monstrosity and actually looks like a coherent army on the table. Better that than some of the other tournament winners highlighted recently.

  • DoctorBored

    Will be interesting to see how IG get hit by the nerf bat. By all accounts, getting a Codex with proper stratagems and warlord traits and relics makes an army much stronger. It would be great if they adjusted point values and a few rules to get rid of some of these whacky combos earlier rather than later.

    But I foresee having to wait until the Chapter Approved before we get any real determination.

  • Dusty

    Since the last winning IG list was called the Leaf Blower, do we call this list the, “Mind Blower?”

  • Dartt36

    your conscript solution is bad. as a person who has only and forever just played guard that would ruin us. a more elegant solution would be to limit the number of conscript blobs to 1 per IG detachment. His list would only have 40 conscripts that way and the IG players can keep the unit that has been vital for us without nerfing our entire army, conscripts are the buffer that make us competitive, if people want to deal with conscripts then kill the commissar, it’s really that simple.

    • J Mad

      But moral does need a fix, 90% the time players dont even use the moral phase, its a phase that a part of the game ot help speed it up and give risk/reward, it also is a way to help keep hordes in line.

      We are not saying let them take the full hit of moral, but they still should be hit with it.

      We are seeing 100’s of cheap models on the table b.c they dont suffer from moral. Its not just Conscripts its also FW.

      • Dartt36

        you cannot use conscripts in Elysian stuff. you do take the moral check but it is in the form of a man getting shot, that is what i’m paying 31 points for a commissar for, conscripts would be absolutely terrible without a commissar that is why they are always close at hand. with the one per IG detachment this guy would only have 50 T3 BS5+ infantry on the board. that is containing the problem of conscripts while rewarding players like myself who will just have 3 IG detachments on the board.

        • J Mad

          Never said they are taken together, i said if its not conscript spam its fw spam.

          Again not saying dont have a Commissar, never said that, i said we should be ignoring a whole part of the game, but have some units aka a Commissar instead heavily help the unit in the moral phase.

          • Dartt36

            if you are talking about FW spam i don’t know why you are responding to my comment. I am trying to address the constant “conscripts OP” which is everywhere, i see why you say we are ignoring the moral phase but we are not, we pay to not lose an amazing amount of men to the phase by adding a commissar and we still lose 1 man for the pleasure. It’s a tax for taking a large amount of men which are a human shield for our real damage dealers.

          • J Mad

            Im not talking about FW spam, i mention many took them to make a point about hordes, you are the one the went into more detail about them.

            You said “his solution was bad” and i wanted to say that ignoring a phase of the game is bad.

          • Iratus

            You do realize that he could swap the elysians for Tempestus Scions and achieve the same exact results, correct? The scions cost more because they have better statlines. And not by much. He didn’t even spam FW models, he took 2pt cheaper scions with worse saves.

            The Commissar is something you can deal with, especially with only 2 of them. It’s not our fault you’re too dumb to bring sniper rifles or targeted psychic powers. Don’t hate on the list because you don’t bring all the tools you need to deal with it.

          • J Mad

            That wasnt the point at all but ok… IDC about FW, i mention them b.c many were taking them, the point is that horde armies completely ignore a phase of the game needs to change.

  • J Mad

    Fix moral, its not even being played at this point, out of my like 35 games only 3 of those games moral test actually could remove a model, and one of those games was against Tau -.-

    • generalchaos34

      what are you playing? I lose stuff all the time, even as guard. A few units plinked off a squad here and there may not matter but ive had more than a few guard squads, Skitarii, and tyranids get wiped out from leadership rolls. The only armies that consistently ignore it for me are Necrons, Daemons, and Space Marines with their rerolls. Guard can ignore it but its very dependent on commissar placement (and not getting killed by snipers)

      • J Mad

        No Nid players i know play horde armies, nid hordes are not good atm, its MC’s and Genestealers DUe to swarmlord making a unit Turn 1 charge, genestealers are almost a 1st pick, having mass S7 shots om cheap fex’s means they are a fast pick and sense a Trygon is in every way better than Tryynocyte they are using that as a transport and melee support, then you have a Malanothrope as other hq.

        We have many SM’s, like you said it almost doesnt matter for them.

        The Daemon players here are MC/Vehicles or Cultist 2cp regen thingy.

        We have some Ork players and their moral is their own (something i want to see more off) but they play fun lists and odnt do 30man blobs, but vehicles, walkers, koppas, bikes etc..

        A few Ynnari players, when you have multi wound Wraiths, Wave Serpents and Dark Reapers, everything else is 3man or 5man for MSU spam LD doesnt matter.

        And the Guard just uses HQ’s to ignore.

        Edit: There was this one guy a couple times took 60 Gants (2x30mans) but he also had 2 units of Venomthropes and 2 Tervigons and many warriors, so it was enough synapse to not care about the gants.

        • Iratus

          I play green tide boyz and it’s a hilarious crapshoot whether I smash people off the table, or just die in droves. It’s a given rule if you’re playing Orkz, you’re not there to win, you’re there to have fun and show off your kitbashed trukks and vehicles. And also throw all your dice, AND all your opponents dice, AND all the dice from the other two guys on the next table.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    It will interesting to see what the designers can do with the up coming AM codex. I’d imagine they could have put revisions in just in time for the printing deadline.

    Personally, I’d imagine a fix for Commissars is that when using the Summary Execution rule with keyword conscripts then that unit loses D6 models instead of one; representing the case that a commissar may need to “encourage” conscripts a bit more than a trained guardsman.

    • Dartt36

      maybe d3 instead of d6, d6 is a little much.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Perhaps. I did muse D3, however I felt that would still mean a third of the time only losing 1 model. Given, more often than not when, failing a moral,with conscripts a player maybe losing towards 5-6 models it seem more reasonable. I was hesitant to suggest any caveats like D3+1 or you can’t lose more than what you failed by etc.. since when you look across the 8th rule, the designers tend to chose what is the simplest solution (far more so, than they have ever done).

  • Iratus

    I love the complaints about Astropath’s crappy smites meanwhile the end match had the rogue psyker spam throwing 13 smites for the same point without the d6 restriction.

    • Jory4001

      Rouge psykers are insane, 15 wounds a squad, take D3 mortal wound to cast smite on 3D6 making them cast over 10 for D6 mortal wounds really easy to get.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Hard nope. This list is making me blind.

  • Drpx

    Guard spam won another tournament, time to make infantry not count for sudden death.

  • Bigalmoney666

    1. Reduce the maximum size of conscript squads.
    2. Casualties from shooting have to be the closest model. The commissar should have to execute the closest model.
    3. Increase the points cost of Taurox Prime.
    4. Penalty in Command Points when taking the Supreme Command Detachment.

    • Emdee

      This is a big one…2. Casualties from shooting have to be the closest model….that has to change. Its so easy to conga line models and lose ground. I’ve seen it done with Tyranids as well.

    • Iratus

      “Because one army seems to have a slight advantage due to the rules, we now make the game more oppressive for all armies. And we’re bringing back the old stupid rule of closest models die so enjoy your padded units and taking forever to re-space your models for maximum ablative wounds. And we’re making you keep 2 models near a Commissar because we say so.”

      Bad ideas all over.

      • Bigalmoney666

        What possible justification do you have for pulling casualties from the other end of a massive blob of conscripts that might not even have line of sight? And we’re not talking about template weapons where you’ll spend 10 minutes moving your units so they’re exactly 2″ apart.

  • piglette

    Meh, just bring a few mobs of boyz and punch the big stuff with Gaz.

  • LankTank

    Again it seems like the supreme command detachment pushed this list over into *head shake* county. Before it was a just guard really cincentrating their favourite 4 units or so but then suddenly 4x more smites for basically nothing and an extra CP?

  • Brian Gast

    one idea might be, commissars reduce the result by 6, then the squad takes d3 mortal mounds?

  • Emdee

    My guess is that the AM codex won’t “fix” any of this. However, chapter approved is right around the corner. That’s probably where it will be addressed.

  • Most anyone could win with this list .

    • Iratus

      Yes it’s clearly the list that is strong, and not how the player chose to play the tournament and built his list accordingly. You cannot put blame on the list for someone having a strategy and being able to execute it effectively. That’s what comes into the tournament setting where you have fixed objectives that removes the bonehead aspect of RNG winning you the game on VPs. That’s why in 6th and 7th edition it was a free-for-all with no strategy AT ALL because the easiest road to victory was to blast your enemy off the board and table them.

      This list is not built to table an opponent. It has a few hard hitters for some threats but it can’t do didly against big dudes. This list would beat the almighty Tau Commander Drop because it has a -strategy- and it -works- because of the player.

  • Ryan Williams

    Spellchecker is your friend…

  • Warboss_Stalin

    Meh. I’ve been ripping people the last 17 games with just as deadly a list:

    Tempestor Battalion:

    Tempestor Prime (Command Rod)
    Tempestor Prime (CR)
    Tempestor Prime (CR)

    x5 Scions (x2 Plasma)
    x5 Scions (x2 Plasma/Plasma pistol)
    x5 Scions (x2 Plasma/Plasma pistol)

    Temp Command Squad (x4 Plasma)
    Temp Command Squad (x4 Plasma)
    Temp Command Squad (x4 Plasma)

    Sabre Spotlight (Catachan)
    Sabre Spotlight (Catachan)
    Sabre Spotlight (Catachan)

    Taurox Prime (Dual AC/Gatling)
    Taurox Prime (Dual AC/Gatling)
    Taurox Prime (Dual AC/Gatling)
    Taurox Prime (Dual AC/Gatling)

    Elysian Spearhead:

    Elysian Comp Commander (Bolt Gun)
    Elysian Comp Commander (Bolt Gun)

    Elysian Command Squad (x4 Plasma Guns)
    Elysian Command Squad (x4 Plasma Guns)

    x2 Cyclops
    x2 Cyclops
    x1 Cyclops
    x1 Cyclops

    Vulture (Gatling)
    Vulture (Gatling)

    Catachan Spearhead:

    Catachan Comp. Commander
    Catachan HWT (x3 Lascannon)
    Catachan HWT (x3 Lascannon)
    Catachan HWT (x3 Lascannon)

  • Spacefrisian

    Now tell me, with Deathstar term out of 8th, shouldnt we start calling the new meta the Avengers lists now. Characters everywhere to boost armies and stand on there own, its not to farfetched term imo.

  • Astrath_The_Unamused

    The early meta is getting shockingly predictable. It was originally vehicles, now its smite, blobs and characters. That Tournament players were consulted on this ruleset gets me wondering if it’s all intentional.

    Interesting to see what GW bring out to help mitigate it.