40K: ADB On Representation

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Aaron Dembski-Bowden has some choice words for folks regarding representation in 40K.

Somebody call Phil Collins, or better yet, Pete Townsend and Thunderclap Newman–there must be something in the air. Just yesterday, Aaron Dembski-Bowden aka ADB, author of The First Heretic or the Night Lords trilogy of Soul Hunter, Blood Reaver, Void Stalker, chimed in with some choice words for anyone out there who is worried that better representation of women or minorities will somehow ruin the game:

This screenshot came from ADB’s facebook page, and you can see the original, uncensored version there. But it touches on something that seems to be going around. Over the weekend we ran an article about GW’s response to a request for better representation and it brought out a very small but very vocal minority of people who seemed unable to understand that either, women can fight just as well as men, and that they have since time immemorial, or that, seeing characters of different colors, creeds, and genders only helps make the setting more “realistic” — or that completely missed the irony of demanding that your setting where monsters from another galaxy and sentient fungi what loves ta scrap shoot explosions and teleport guns at each other.

And nevermind the sneaking suspicion that this demand for “realism” is just a way to say “please don’t change the setting,” which–I mean, I’ve got news for you, the setting is changing all the time. We’re in the middle of the Dark Imperium, there’s a giant rift in the galaxy. Setting changed. But more to the point, it doesn’t mean you’re wrong for loving 40K. Or that wanting to see better representation or whatever means that you necessarily invalidate the stuff that’s come before.

It’s just loving something enough that you want to see it be the best it could be–and that just means being accessible to folks. Which means letting people see themselves in the setting. We all love 40K for different reasons. Whether it’s the darkly satiric take on the value of human life and misery (it me), or the massive explosions that tanks that are at once science fiction tanks but also world war II tanks. Some people really like all the space magic…other people like taking six storm ravens and a unit of Ogryn Bodyguards. We don’t talk about them.

Anyway. All of this to say that it seems to be about time for things to change–there’s something in the air tonight.

So, keep a weather eye open and we’ll all just have to see what happens.

Now to go out and pick up Ogryn Bodyguards before Adam Harry buys them all.

  • Son_of_Corax_XIX

    Is this really news?

    • Jay Arr

      Yes.

      • No. It’s not.

        • euansmith

          Oh, yes it is!

          • #noitsnot

          • euansmith

            He’s behind you!

            (Sorry, if you are not from the UK that comment will probably make no sense at all)

          • Jabberwokk

            It’s after you!

          • Not a clue. haha.

          • euansmith

            In British Pantomime (like a broadly comical musical show, popular around Christmas) there are traditional call and response sections known as, “Oh, yes it is! Oh, no it isn’t!” and “He’s behind you! Oh, no he isn’t!” It has toilet humour, double entendres and cross-dressing (the hero is traditionally a young woman in rather tight “male dress”, and there is an older “female” character played by a male actor in the coarsest possible drag); it is about as English as you can get.

          • Reminds me of Black Adder season one.
            Sounds entertaining.

          • euansmith

            More like the boozing scene in season two with the fake boowbes.

          • palaeomerus

            E’s up thuh ol sea dog.

      • Son_of_Corax_XIX

        Not at all

    • Drpx

      It’s filler. No new codex out yet, and there’s nothing to talk about in the game besides hordes/Smite spam.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Leaks from the next white dwarf are out there. The Primaris Marines are getting a Super-Heavy Tank and Eldar are getting a new Start Collecting box.

    • Jason Still

      It’s news but the number of people it’s important to is greatly exaggerated.

      • Son_of_Corax_XIX

        It’s not really news, more gossip

    • John Doe

      nope

  • carlisimo

    Some of the anti-diversity arguments come across as, “I’m happy the model range has all the things I want, but I’d be unhappy if it also had the things you want.” Extra pieces on sprues would not be a new thing…

    Contravening old lore would be going too far (e.g. female Astartes – hmm, do Primaris Marines actually count as “Astartes”?), but there’s no indication that we need to worry about that. I think GW’s approach here is fine, as is ADB’s response.

    • Munn

      See female space marines? Sure, I can see why people would be mad at that. But I’ve seen people get mad at female GUARD. Like, this is a universe where violent military conflict against untold horrors from beyond the stars takes up more of your day-to-day life than sleep; they can’t afford to gender stereotype.

      • vlad78

        Exactly, I can’t imagine the Imperium not using 50% of humanity to fight.

        • Marcus Clark

          When you think on it, the human population in many countries atm like Australia, Japan, USA, have a higher female population. Im perfectly fine with female Guard, would like to see some based around the Women’s Battalion of Death and similar from WW1.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            We have more women because men are like die sooner than women.

          • Marcus Clark

            That’s a common misconception, there is actually have a higher birth rate of female to male. Also There is a higher Male life loss from Military and police actions. The average Life length does not take in effects of disease, cancer, suicide or manslaughter. The average length of life looks at past generations and the average age of most individuals, there was less men around in general.

          • FCBullsht

            And their armies have way higher count of men than women – so, what?

          • TheMawr

            ehh no.
            Just as with SoB… “lets take women and put them in their own unit/army” is actually part of the problem.
            Everyone would get it if it was like “yes, thats our special black infantry battalion, all blacks in our army combined in one unit”.. same thing, kind of 😉

            The best way to threat the issue at hand, is, to not threat it as an issue/big thing/big deal.

            “look this is our first female stormcast model! she is awesome because, she is female!”.. horrible.

            “This is -whatever her name is- a mighty stormcast hero blablabla” who just so happens to be a female (without using that as a sales pitch).. perfect, that is gender equality..

            This is why, generically speaking, Political correctness actually is a big source of the issues it tries to solve.
            “special treatment” creates the illusion of exclusion.

            btw, internet makes it all more smug and argumentive as I intend it to be. 🙂

          • palaeomerus

            drive the tank over there, I want to hit them with my sword -> ???? ->realism

          • Marcus Clark

            Eldar, We have the most advanced jet bikes! whats the best weapon we could use with them. -> Lances!!!

        • Drpx

          Think of it like the world in the Handmaid’s Tale, i.e. where people are treated as a resource and morality is suspended like it is in the Imperium.

          You have 10 men and 10 women.
          6 of the men die in the war/disaster, two are crippled into sterility, one has low sperm count. The last healthy man can impregnate all 10 women who then make 10 babies in 9 months. The babies could be either male, thus replacing the men you lost in about 12 years as child soldiers (Kony 2012), or female, which will be capable of having more children with the man in about 13–15 years at which time he’ll probably still be fertile as he’s only in his 20s–30s now (squicky, but we’re talking grimdark).

          Now swap it around. You have two living women able to bear children and 10 men. Each can only get pregnant by one man and then you have to wait 9 months for two babies at a time which could be either female, which you would want, or male which would be excessive because you already have enough guys for the seeding job. Eventually, the women will hit menopause and stop ovulating at which point you’ll need younger ones to keep up production of people.

          TL;DR play StarCraft as the Zerg and pretend the drones are men and the hatcheries are women.

          • vlad78

            Which would be possible if the Imperium was organized in the most cost effective way possible. But it is not. Some fortress worlds might but it seems to be far from the norm.

            Female only regiments even are in the fluff, besides, nothing prevents you from using women on the front when they are not pregnant and also those too old to have children or just unable to. Moreover, on some technological avanced worlds, you don’t even need female bodies to bear children. Or the women in charge of procreating could be genetically modified to bear more children, why not 10 or 15 at a time?

            The possibilities in a grimark setting are endless. Therefore I don’t see our present biological limits as reasons enough to forbid a men/women parity in the IG.

          • Drpx

            You said you couldn’t imagine a reason.

          • vlad78

            ^^

          • gush

            Makes sense female only regiments. Mixed battalions lead to too much fraternization and we have to keep that loyalty completely focused on the emperor or they might waste their lives disobeying orders to save some filthy guard instead of dying for the emperor as they should. Lol!
            I get why people would complain, but having special regiments with special models belonging to those regiments.

          • carlisimo

            A lot of 40k worlds have no need to maximize reproductive efficiency. This is a setting where forge worlds send robots with miniguns to cull entire neighborhoods when there are too many humans… Planets like Krieg that had to enforce special practices to grow the population are exceptions.

        • Tyr

          Well, I could… mostly cause that other 50% is necessary to produce more soldiers. That said, you dont have to have complete parity to get representation. Itd be totally reasonable for their to be *some* women in the military, possibly even entire regiments. Theyd just be a minority. Maybe at a 3:1, 4:1 ration, something like that.

          • SonoftheMountain

            Kinda like the real military. There are a lot of women but still vastly outnumbered by men

          • vlad78

            Who said women in the guard do not have kids?

          • LankTank

            Unknown to most Straken is ACTUALLY a women, well was a woman until the land shark mangled down there. Or was it the other way around and he is now a woman after the attack? It’s all very problematic as in the far future there are now 427 approved genders

          • gush

            Women in the imperial guard have kids.
            god, if i’m not mistaken even some of the adepta sororitas have kids.
            If I’m not mistaken there are rules about females only being able to join the guard after having kids. (which should have been the biggest contraceptive ever, but nothing the inquisition and eclisiarchy can’t solve with a bit of brain washing.)

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Remember, Sororitas are less “nuns with guns,” more Peace Corps with guns.

          • Tyr

            Well, pregnant women could be a liability in war, as would small children. Though I could see it happening when theyre on leave.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Cloning mundane human soldiers was a thing during the Great Crusade/Heresy, no one said that it wasn’t still happening in the 41st millennium, and besides, the constant war-footing is a form of population control, so even if 25% of humanity was tasked with war-fighting, you’re still talking millions of times the population of this planet standing to fight.

        • Spacefrisian

          Malcador and Fabius also wonder about that, and they arent on the same page.

      • Drpx

        Since space marines are artificially created, boosted with space magic-science and belong to a warrior cult that only cares about fighting for the Emperor, it actually makes more sense for them to include females than the unaugmented humans of the Imperial Guard whose totalitarian-minded leaders would want to keep the baby-factories in reserve.

        • Evan Logan

          2 words; Sexual Dimorphism.
          And then there is the 100,000 times the fluff has said ‘female space marine are not possible because of (reason X) so shut up’.

          • Drpx

            One word: fiction. The fluff is whatever GW says it is. They could say women can be marines tomorrow and all you could do is crap your diaper (again).

          • Evan Logan

            Contradicting the canon in such a way is the best way to piss off fans of the lore (I recommend the 1d4chan page for C.S.Goto for clafaction)

          • Drpx

            You mean like having a dead guy pop out of a freezer and set off to make the grimdark universe a little brighter with his special super, super marines who were on the back burner for 10k years?

          • LankTank
          • palaeomerus

            So how does stasis, chaos venom, primarch physiology, mechanicum life support armor, and eldar death-god soul magic really work then? Correct any misconceptions we have and then explain how GW being random and arbitrary all the time to pander to tumblr randos is going to improve the readability of this stuff?

          • ZeeLobby

            They’ve already been there, done that, lol.

          • gush

            But isn’t that what GW has been doing a lot lately?
            Maybe belissarius sue’s primaris can be female, wouldn’t be the most rage inducing piece of canon disrespecting lore we’d get lately.

          • GrenAcid

            You are part of the problem, pls get back to tumblr cave.

          • Simarus Integra

            And here we have the living incarnation of female supremacy.

          • palaeomerus

            Or people could roll their eyes and not buy it.

          • palaeomerus

            Demons causing people to gain mass and be on fire but fine indicates a staunch adherence to realism is the driving force behind 40K.

      • Koen Diepen Van

        I wish gw would make some more female guard models. I mean tau and eldar have them why not the guard. Some of those third party models look great. But it would be nice to have some form gw 2 so they would blend better.

        • Tyr

          Absolutely. Hell, even just some female characters would be pretty nice… (though the plastic commissar is surprisingly easy to genderswap, at least… <.<)

        • Evan Logan

          I feel the ‘everyone looks the same in combat armor’ argument applies here

          • BloodAngel

            I agree. It’s as if everyone thinks all women warriors would be wearing boobie armor and have round hips. If you see the third party models, they are always very revealing. I think, besides the heads, most guard bodies would work for females anyway.

            “Hey Vasquez? Anybody ever mistake you for a man?”

          • Nathaniel Wright

            “No, have you?”

            And who says women can’t be awesome.

          • euansmith

            It really is only the faces and the body language that give it away.

          • palaeomerus

            It’s not even the faces.

          • Koen Diepen Van

            Mostly heads I think. Would be enough to get it done

        • Simarus Integra

          You must be a stable and reasonable individual as that’s a fair statement and I back that

        • palaeomerus

          I wish they would make new guard models is fine because the ones we have are old and stinky. Also new Space Marine scouts and basic necrons.

      • Daniel Sanchez

        The only argument I’ve heard that actually made me think was a good argument against female in guard (not defending the idea but it was a mildly interesting point) was if humans die at the rate the Guard dies, you wouldn’t want to send in your egg carriers to also be dead.
        I took a step back and said, now there’s an interesting take. The Person followed up with “not the strongest argument and I like the idea of female guard models” so it was a strictly lore based thought craft and I thought it was a rather interesting take.
        Female guard models would be sweet, though.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          All of Cadia’s population were in the guard. Male and female. Period, end of story.

          • AnonymousLobo

            The first guy deleted his comment, but the gist was “We need women to breed because you need eggs and a womb whereas sperm is in much less limited supply.” My response: There’s also the fact that the argument ignores the numbers of people in the Imperium. Probably because humans are bad at huge numbers. We know, from fluff, that the Imperium has millions of worlds. We also know the Imperial Gua… ahem… Astra Militarum has “trillions” of soldiers. We also know from the fluff that while some worlds contribute huge percentages of their population, including women (*cough*cough*Cadia) most only provide a small proportion. If we assume, for the sake of argument, that the average is that 10% of a world’s population serves in the Guard (probably much lower), and there are only two trillion guardsmen (the minimum to qualify as “trillions”) that’s a Imperial population of approximately 20 trillion people. More likely the number of humans in the galaxy tops several quadrillion (and Orks possibly in the tens or even more of quadrillions). But even with 20 trillion people, half of whom are female, are you really going to care even HALF of the guardsmen are guardswomen? You have 9 mother-f***ing trillion women around to still breed. Woman wants a flashlight and a primer? F*** it, let her go kill some orks. There’s still more eggs in the galaxy than we need. I mean, seriously, if the difference between 9 and 10 trillion (or more likely between 9.5 and 10 quadrillion) potential mothers is an issue, the Imperium is even more f***ed that it was before.

      • ZeeLobby

        Which is just a crazy argument. Female guard characters have been around in the fluff forever. It really wouldn’t hurt GW to add them to them game, except alienating sexists. Like you said, there’s totally justifiable reasons why the guard would contain both.

        • Simarus Integra

          I understand I fight for more female guardsmen, but I draw the like at things like female space marines or randomly rarely different marines ( a white salamander or a black imperial fist)

        • Robin

          You missed some of very valid his point. He is not complaining about ‘diversity’ but that when it is done it is either 1) done for ideological reasons, 2) badly done, 3) done to address an non-issue, 4) it always threatens to throw established fluff out the window, and 5) implemented in such an way that it is condescending.

      • gush

        Mad at female guard? Where?
        Not even mad at space marines, just mad a people pressuring for female marines as if it was an obligation.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          It’s not a good demand to make.

    • Simarus Integra

      You must be a farmer as that some good strawmen you put up.

    • palaeomerus

      Look if you GW want to release a squad box of women or one for each specialty (Why can’t women spot for a las cannon crew, or load, or shoot?) go for it but a lot of self congratulatory herping and derping about it is just tacky. As for Space Marines if they want a new space marine recipe they can do that but the Emperor’s astartes haven’t worked that way since the White Dwarf Compendium & Compilation split them off from their less defined Rogue Trader forebears in the revised 1st edition (vortex grenades and deoderant bottle hover tanks w/ zoids guns & freaky Revel Robotech kitbashes rendered in ink.).

  • dynath

    I was a member of a chess club in grade school. This group of all guys who played chess matches for hours after school. That eventually evolved into D&D and after a long time into 40k. Same group of guys, just a different game. Our groups and clubs exist as a safe space. Insulated from the rest of the world. Its a place were we feel comfortable hiding from the outside world that threatened and marginalized us. Regardless of what other genders, nationalities, races, faiths, etc. exist in reality or should exist in the setting, this discussion comes down to a simple fact. Some people have never learned to deal with people outside of their safe space. They see any encroachment into that safe space as hostile. As a threat to their safety and security. A thing to be feared. Its never about the vocal majority being right or wrong. Never even about whether it is good or bad to have more representation, its about someone else’s ideas entering one person’s safe zone and clashing with that person’s perception of reality. This isn’t something that reason can deal with. You can’t tell people “xxxx” is true, because its an emotional response to react violently to the new, to the different. Only time and exposure will change that, as that safe place returns to a semblance of equilibrium.

    • Lee Ashford

      I think this is a great way of looking at some people’s reactions to this.

      However, when young you teach your kid not to smack another when they get their favourite toy taken from them in nursery. You teach them to share. We’re talking about fully grown adults here. THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER

      It seems you’re talking about intelligent people, able to evolve and adapt. They live in a world of movies and books regardless of how they’ve been brought up. They should have taught themselves to share their own toys by now. Especially as no one is actually taking it from them…

      And if they haven’t learnt to share they can certainly refrain from hiding behind a keyboard and spitting vitriol at others

      • dynath

        Are they fully grown? I mean physically maybe but emotionally? Aren’t the people reacting violently against change the same people who have a problem talking to women, who are sore losers when they play, and can’t help but freak out when any new player shows up at their local flgs. Most of the ones who react violently aren’t emotionally grown up. They are stilted, stuck in hiding in their childhood to avoid the pain they perceive in the world around them. Like a child hiding from the shadow in their closet by cowering under a blanket.

        • Lee Ashford

          Yes they are fully grown :-/ Maybe not emotionally I agree. Unless they have a genuine disorder or behavioural problem tough then there are no excuses for some of these public reactions. They are responsible for their actions and while they might struggle to come to terms with change they do not have to vent it as they do.

          This hobby does attract a large proportion of the people you describe. They can then feed off one another and can create vile little cliques. It’s up to the rest of us to let them know they are very, very wrong.

          Understanding like yours will help. But please do not make excuses for them. They already make enough of their own

        • Koen Diepen Van

          You mean losers?

          • dynath

            LOL. maybe?

            I don’t think calling them losers is helpful personally. If they are losers that means we are winners, and that means it’s a contest, and if it’s a contest and they fight hard enough they might be able to win. It’s not really that type of situation. They can’t just shout people down and be offensive enough that it’s ok to exclude people. There is no prize for kicking someone out of a game club. I get less people to play with and they get no place to play. The only way to really stop “that guy” from occurring is to teach them its better to not be that guy.

          • Koen Diepen Van

            fair enough. My world view is a bit less optimistic than your’s tough

          • dynath

            It takes all kinds. If everyone was optimistic all the time there would be no one there to pick us up when we fall.

    • Colin

      You’re off the rails my friend. Do you even realize how ironic it is that you’re criticizing a fiction setting that’s a dystopian hellscape for not being gender / race inclusive enough?

      That even assumes that’s true, which it isn’t. There’s exclusively female armies, there’s female models in the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and scattered about the other armies. There’s an all black legion, the other legions come from a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

      Or, you know, you could just paint them whatever color you want. Whoa, problem solved!

  • It’s deeply depressing how controversial this topic is

    • ZeeLobby

      Society as a whole is going through some kind of cultural Renaissance right now. It’s definitely messy but hopefully things come out alright on the other end. Never before have we had non-stop cultural mingling as we do today, and it’s forcing people to notice and admit truths about themselves and others that they never wanted to or would have ever had to in the past. Sadly/Happily it’s going to touch everything in it’s path…

      • euansmith

        Its like the 1960s and 1970s all over again. Another lurch forwards. Actually, I guess, the 1980s gave a push on the LGBT front. The 1990s? I dunno.

        • ZeeLobby

          It’s definitely cyclical, and seems to be getting louder. Don’t know where that really leads us, haha. Probably either to enlightenment and the Great Crusade, or damnation and Old Night.

        • Drpx

          The 90s was when everyone was obsessed with drugs. Not like they were in the 60s though.

          • euansmith

            If only the world was flowered up. 😉

          • palaeomerus

            It was mostly stinky people in vans with several payments due hiding from repo.

        • GnomesForge

          Forwards? Do you actually have an end point in mind? History tends to repeat itself, not march ever forward. As resources, global conflicts, epidemics and environmental disaster increase how much tolerance to you think people will have for microaggressions? When life keeps beating on you with Macroagressions the micros don’t matter much. In the CCCP if you complained, gulag. I guess the modern day equivalent would be corporate prisons for profit. People need to buck up, stop whining and come together.

      • Frank Krifka

        My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday. There definitely seems to be something in the water..

        • wibbling

          Flouride.

          • euansmith

            Delivered via Chem Trails, I understand.

          • palaeomerus

            I’d say it’s more spread by hard to read “wired” influenced lifestyle blogs about nerd hobbies that rarely mention nerd hobbies except with an eye to rearranging them somehow.

      • Ben

        Are we admitting things about ourselves? That’s a rosier picture than what I would view. In my cynical view we are getting more and more divided along lines of creed, race, political affiliation, etc… the notion of safe spaces and you disagree so you must be evil mentality that pervades modern western culture and media does not bode well for the future.

        Can’t we just agree like sane adults that the Browns are a terrible football team and move on with our day?

        • ZeeLobby

          It was really a neutral statement. I’ve seen greater acts of hatred and unity in the past year then I’ve ever seen in the rest of my life. Clearly I hope unity wins and we no longer have to worry about political correctness cause it just comes naturally. But it’s definitely reaching a boiling point.

          • Robin

            It comes naturally?

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          I agree with everything but the last statement, if only because I could care less about football, and find endless consensus-building to be a waste of time.

      • Kveldulf

        Until the fall. Then strong men will be required again to build up society.

        Effeminate behavior should evaluated more to prevent this.

      • wibbling

        Or, more accurately, a group of noisy wasters have leapt on a subject no one else was bothered about and started hurling words about to make themselves feel better.

        The entire point of equality is to ignore the differences. Only once some fools stop going on about it do we have it. Until then, it’s all about the ego of the loud.

        • ZeeLobby

          Ignoring inequality will not eventually create equality. It’s something we’ve done for years. All it eventually leads to is outbursts like we experience today, as people just bottle up and avoid confronting their prejudices.

          Your response is like the perfect wibbling response though.

          • palaeomerus

            Making an old “mashup bucket” grotesque dark future game with a campy sense of grim more diverse & less momentarily problematic to appease the hunger of current year isn’t going to effect equality and is likely to cringe the place up worse than ever.

        • Txabi Etxebarrieta

          Gotta echo Zee here. I always figured you for a generally unpleasant human being just by virtue of your low quality and high quantity troll posts. It’s almost comforting to see there’s not one part of your personality that isn’t actually toxic.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          Equality, as you seem to understand it, is a flawed concept. Better that the differences aren’t allowed to matter than to pretend they don’t exist. But that’s too much work for some folks.

          • euansmith

            Indeed, plus I think that “Equality” is rather an out dated concept these days, and that “Diversity” is the way to go.

            Treating everyone the same means creating a “one size fits all solution” and that is always going to favour one group over another and will try to force everyone to conform to a standard (looking at you Commissar and Inquisitor).

            “Diversity”, on the other hand, is more about trying to make some effort to understand other peoples’ experiences and try to find common ground. I think that the effort of trying to do the first part, can make the second part easier.

          • palaeomerus

            That’s just a caste system in a plastic glasses and schnoz disguise.

      • Richard Mitchell

        Ya, I think this is really just for people who live in a bubble. “40k is getting different human skin tones two genders in the same army!” And you look around and see this common with almost every other wargame out there and women have been in integrated units for how long IRL? It is one of those things that for the rest of us that have jobs and encounter people from different backgrounds everyday see as a nothing burger, But the basement people are freaking out. It isn’t really an 1980’s thing. I mean, not in America. It is more of “we are finally catching up to the world! Give us a gold star!” on one side and “Horror at the Red Hook” on the other, and the majority of people are just shrugging and scratching their head. Basement people fighting basement people, that is media presence everyone else is watching.

    • Richard Mitchell

      That is true.

  • Txabi Etxebarrieta

    I was *really* torn here between giving praise to ADB for writing this and just staying as far away as humanly possible from the erupting septic tank that this comments section is likely to become.

    Discretion is the better part of valor, but I’ve never been exceptionally bright. So thanks ADB!

  • Txabi Etxebarrieta

    I find more often than not, by an overwhelming margin, that people worrying about “political correctness” are usually white men who want to make something a safe space for other white men. Which, fwiw, usually entails wanting to “say,” or worse “do” whatever they want without fear of consequences.

    • dynath

      I hope you don’t take this the wrong way but how is this different from what minorities and gender groups are doing on college campus’s through out the united states? The very idea of a “safe space” is exclusionary. It means that the things and people who are different are inherently a threat. It means that its a place where the people who are like minded can say or do whatever they want without fear of consequences because no one with differing opinions or ideologies are around to judge them. Worrying about “politically correctness” can be either a general response to the constant fear of being judged or it can be, as you say, an attempt to build a safe space in retaliation to the judgement of others. Politically correctness is an attempt to impose one person’s morals/ethics on another by force. Is it any surprise that when people are told certain words can’t be used some people embrace those words while others cower away from them. Politically correctness and safe spaces are a flawed self defense. The only way we can learn to over come differences is by living with those who are different, accepting the differences and finding commonalities. Neither politically correctness nor safe spaces do that, they just stave off the symptoms of ignorance a little bit longer.

      • ZeeLobby

        I think you’re missing the safe in safe space though. These people don’t want to hide just for the sake of forming their own cool club that you can’t join. They want to hide from persecution, belittlement and threats of violence. Something most white males never experience to even closely the same degree.

        • dynath

          Just because I disagree with the use of the word “Safe” in the term “safe space” does not mean I don’t understand why people want to apply the word. Free from persecution is something EVERYONE wants. I’ll use your terms here. Everyone keeps saying “strait white men” can’t understand or haven’t experienced but that’s not really true. They do experience persecution, that is different than that of minorities but is still persecution they want to avoid. They do the exact same things as minorities when they try to avoid it too. Rich white men want to be free of being judged for being rich or being asked for money, so they build gated communities and country clubs to make a place “safe” for them. “Strait white men” want a to be free of being “hit on” so they try to keep certain sexual preferences and genders banned from groups like the YMCA and the Boy Scouts, this is also an attempt to make a “safe” space. It isn’t right, it isn’t smart, but it is EXACTLY the same, one person being “safe” from another by EXCLUDING them. They feel persecuted, maybe they feel persecuted this way because they’ve never felt real persecution but they still feel it. you can’t reason away that feeling by saying “you don’t understand” and then hiding away from all the people who “don’t understand”. They flee from it by creating a place free of the persecutors. And that place that is “SAFE” for them is inherently “UNSAFE” for their persecutor. Those ignorant people may not understand they are making a hostile space but they are, whether it is that stupid rich white guy and his country club that won’t accept other races or the minority racial group that designates a certain classroom or building as “free of white people”. It might not be hostile for THEM but it is hostile to SOMEONE. The communities who are creating “safe spaces” are isolating themselves and pushing away those of differing ideologies, genders, races, etc. You can’t claim they are creating a space “free of persecution” because they are persecuting others outside their designated group. And even within the group, within the minority, persecution still exists. I’m a minority that doesn’t agree with the opinion that “safe spaces are a good idea” and every time I express that opinion I have people shouting at me that “I don’t understand”. I can’t possibly believe something, I must be miss informed, I must be conforming to white culture, I must not have been discriminated against, I don’t know what it’s like. A lot of people, like yourself, will tell me “I missed something”. I didn’t. I have a different Ideology. My perspective comes from my experiences, and in my experience, every “safe space” has been an excuse to persecute someone else. Making friends and changing opinions that’s what stopped my persecution. Not hiding away where its safe and making sure no one who comes by is different than me.

  • ADB just gave this guy internet fame. Trolls eat this stuff up.

    • I think the last couple of years or so has shown that perhaps ignoring these people is not the best course of action. It wasn’t in the 1920’s and 1930’s, and it isn’t now. This guy is a lost cause, but ignoring this stuff lets it spread. Good for ADB on calling it out.

      • Drpx

        Except that if ADB had ignored this person, what he said wouldn’t have SPREAD to this website. Instead everyone here saw it.

        But yeah, Nazis and Hitler and stuff.

        • Actually most of the stuff I see flying around lately is more Serbia 1990s, but most people don’t get that reference. Either way, I don’t think ignoring it is the way to go.

          Side note: Virtue signal is one of the most disgusting terms in modern usage. It’s exactly the kind of faux-intellectual snake oil that people grab onto because they think it sounds smart. As it’s commonly used, it doesn’t actually mean anything. It’s just an effort to negate a persons opinion by assigning a negative motive to it. You can do that with anything. I’ve never heard it used by a person who actually knows Signaling Theory. It’s the internet equivalent to 710 fluid.

          • Drpx

            If you have a better term for people whipping themselves with feathers while dropping a penny in the collection pan, let’s hear it.

          • The problem isn’t the term itself, it’s the way people use it. It’s usually an unfounded accusation that a person isn’t being sincere that’s thrown out to discredit their statement. In other words, it’s making up something bad about the person who said something you don’t like. It’s a grade school tactic that borrows a sociological term as cover.

          • Robin

            How does the performance matter? Those critical against people making themselves hoarse over diversity and perceived injustices rarely listen to the other side and create new issues as they go about screaming their virtues in peoples faces. To call someone out on their virtue signalling is to call attention to an secondary objective, their sleight of hand to push politics on people.

            Gamers have already seen the degrading effect of feminists pushing diversity on gaming developers and comic book publishers such as Marvel. People are justifiably cautious when they see yet another push by ideological groups pushing for diversity and representation in 40k.

            From grade school? Like how people often for diversity use the tired old “You’re a white male and could not possible understand”-argument to push aside opposing or different opinions on the matter? If so, I agree.

    • Laurence J Sinclair

      He didn’t name him, so it’s anonymous fame.

    • Drpx

      This. “Someone sent me a dic pic. Do I delete it or forward it to everyone on my list?”

  • Kritarion

    I see this comment section going well

    • euansmith

      Don’t worry. The storm clouds are gathering. Your worst fears will soon be realised. 😉

      • palaeomerus

        Battletech clickies coming back? Doubtful.

    • Drpx

      There’s nothing to talk about except hordes and Smite dominating 40k atm. So let’s argue about what shape our models are.

  • Jabberwokk

    Social Justice comes to warhammer.

    You will be made to care.

    Fortunately I play Tyranids who Don’t care about your politics, just your biomass.

    Eat em all and let the Norn queens sort em out.

    I imagine Khorne and chaos to a lesser extent aren’t too picky either.

    Protip for GW:Don’t go down this road unless you want to go down the path of Marvel comics. You do you 40k. You got a tonne of diversity as is.

    • Arch Warhammer made the great point that third wave feminism aka. the holy religion of SJWs is akin to tyranids. They invade other worlds and suck the life out of it to produce an unrecognizeable mass of equalized matter.

    • I mean, that’s his point, that its already part of the established universe and thus absence of story telling that captures the vastness of the 40k universe is a bad thing

      • Jabberwokk

        And as long as it stays that way and doesn’t devolve into pandering I doubt there will be much of an issue.

        I mean it’s not an issue for me regardless cause I’ll just down it with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

        • EmperorOfMankind

          I don’t see how it won’t come to pandering, that’s what SJWs do.

        • palaeomerus

          If we were looking to avoid pandering there would have been no tweets and responses posted to signal the tone change. They just would have released a female guard set with 10 multi-piece modular and that would have been that. But we got a “look at me fighting the culture war for great justice” viral PR stint so…pandering then.

    • gordonshumway

      What is this fictional “path of Marvel comics” nonsense that you manbabies seem to love parroting so often? I cannot tell you how far from reality you are on this. Marvel has fallen off on the quality of its editing and storytelling, not because of their sometimes hamfisted and poorly executed push for inclusiveness, but because of outright nepotism, egomania, and mismanagement in the print department, and a complete stagnation and then decline in sales OVERALL. I should know, I used to work in production there.

      We all benefit from more inclusion and diversity in storytelling, unless of course we hate good stories. In reality, Marvel has been unable to sell the public on ANY comic books for close to a decade, and has been notably unable to convert any of the legion of people who watch Marvel films into regular comics readers. Correlation is not causation. Your silly confirmation bias about “diversity” is not reality. Just because this push for “inclusiveness” has corresponded with a time period during which comics sales have stalled overall doesn’t mean it is at fault. In fact, quite the opposite. Some of the newer titles and “diverse” characters actually helped shore up overall flagging sales numbers for short periods of time. But the sad truth is the sad truth, comics readership is dying in ALL categories.

      I love comics. I want them to have a bright future. And I think they will, especially outside of the classic Marvel/DC direct model, but believe me people reading online scans is a much larger extant threat to the comics industry (and Marvel specifically) than “diversity” or “inclusion”…yet surprisingly you don’t hear you lil guys decrying that all that often. Just the specter of “SJWs” and “PC overkill” and all this other nonsense. It just isn’t the case. But try to tell that to confirmation bias on the internet, oh no. It’s like tears in rain…

      • Jabberwokk

        Well there artists and editors were caught plotting to platform and assault one of their detractors. Also there are legit losing money over this(Guardian articl titled “Marvel executive says emphasis on diversity may have alienated readers”). Check out ‘diversity and comics’ on youtube. Mundane matt also did a video on it. Also google “Mockingbird ask” on an image search and see what you find.

        I got a treasure trove more but I’m off to the gym. Might comment again later. 😀

        • Drpx

          If it’s not locked by then, better pump iron fast.

        • Robin

          Good stories does not hinge on diversity, merely the ability to convey a meaningful story. Diversity should never become an axis around which to spin a narrative for its own sake, bar minimum diversity must be submissive to the structure of storytelling — this is the issue: diversity is given the spotlight for external motivations, such as politics.

      • Drpx

        Marvel admitted themselves it was the diversity push.
        https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/03/marvel-executive-says-emphasis-on-diversity-may-have-alienated-readers

        So either you’re wrong, or they decided to make the most politically incorrect statement they could rather than just say, blaming video games or the net streaming.

        • euansmith

          So is that the fault of a drive for inclusiveness or a xenophobic fan base? 😉

          • Drpx

            Dunno, but I would have blamed video games and played it safe.

          • euansmith

            Stupid sexy video games! 🙁

          • Jabberwokk

            Oh Ripper-chan! Kawaii Desu!!!

          • Jabberwokk

            Hey remember when we were ‘on the same side’ with the whole GW needs to fix there game but other people were blaming the players.

            Hey Remember when GW fixed there game and sales went up?

            Maybe, just maybe, blaming the people would be a bad idea. Maybe inclusiveness is a trash idea based on the evidence of social deconstruction and chaos that has resulted and observed. Maybe having grace and forgiveness for the short comings of others(and ourselves) is a better strategy then trying to enforce change through 3 word slogans, bike locks, shaming, lynching, kneeling, character assassinations, and/or political maneuvering.

            It’s time to sthap.

          • euansmith

            Good point. I shouldn’t have descended to name calling. By the way, what is “bike locks”? I can’t access Urban Dictionery from where I am.

          • Jabberwokk

            An ethics professor was caught using a bike lock on the skull of someone he ‘disagreed with’. He was fully masked as an antifa goon when he did it. AN –>ETHICS<– "professor". 4chan and the local law enforcement sniffed him out. The Youtube channel 'Internet Historian' has an amusing summary of the event.

          • palaeomerus

            For bizarre values of xenophobic that somehow ignore the past three decades of what the innovators inexplicably claimed was missing from marvel?

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        It also doesn’t help that Comic sales metrics are antiquated and don’t reflect actual readership in a meaningful way, to the point that the only way to affect grassroots, consumer-driven change in Content is to buy a bunch of comic shops and then overstock the right comic runs.

        • Robin

          That’s why comic stores are not closing at all, right? Go check diversity and comics about this issue.

    • Drpx

      In GW’s defense, if they don’t do something, they’re gonna get some YouTube personality (who doesn’t even collect or play the game) ripping on them which could be blood in the water.

      • Valeli

        I really miss the days when “YouTube personality” didn’t exist as a phrase with meaning…

      • Jabberwokk

        To which I would shrug my shoulders and keep making awesome models and games.

    • dynath

      So what you’re saying is your army is a Matriarchy 😛

      • Jabberwokk

        #feminids

    • palaeomerus

      Leave “the hobby” and escape to the hobby where you put 15mm green stuff jawas & a howda on a plastic dollar store dinosaurs and pit them against 70’s hotwheels with machine guns glued on top.

  • Allerka

    “…aren’t that many women in my novels…”

    Wait, what? Basically every book he writes has a stupidly bad-ass female character in it (whether physically or personality-wise). Captain Sarrin shoots a World Eater’s captain in the face. Octavia survives years of abuse from Talos and even earns his respect. Cyrene becomes hailed as a psuedo-saint by the Gal Vorbak. Khayon’s sister overpowers the machine spirit of the frigging Vengeful Spirit.

    It’s basically a trope of his books. Not a bad trope by any means either, but I suppose it gets predictable after a while. Captain Sarrin is still one of my favorite characters ever in the franchise. I thoroughly enjoyed the old Shira Calpurnia novels too.

    If the plan means some female torsos/heads added to sprues of Guardsmen/Eldar/Skitarii, that sounds fine to me. Great, even. It always seemed weird that the Guard is generally portrayed as a gender-neutral organization, yet that isn’t really reflected in the models. As long as the quality of the writing doesn’t suffer, I don’t care who the characters are, as long as they’re interesting (although, let’s be honest, half of what comes out of the BL is unreadable garbage anyway, but not because of diversity in the characters or lack thereof).

    • There’s also Gyre in The Talon of Horus, Khayon’s tutelary daemon-entity that is expressely seen by her master as a female wolf, or Khayon’s bloodward the Dark Eldar huntress, or the leader of Angron’s world of origin being a woman, or the badass Inquisitor in The Emperor’s Gift who got to command Grey Knights and had a female retinue member who was very curious about Astartes’ physical equipment. And wasn’t the Titan person in Helsreach a woman too? And then there’s Moriana in Black Legion (though she also featured in Gav’s Hand of Darkness audio drama for the Gathering Storm and has been in the lore for a good time).

      But I agree with the predictability. He commented on it over on B&C, actually. I don’t think it is a bad thing either, just expected at this point in terms of character dynamics. Then again, he also has the habit of writing very powerful Astartes who also happen to be somewhat outsiders within their Legions/Chapters for one reason or another and need to have another outside character to play off of.

      Speaking of Shira Calpurnia, the omnibus is getting reissued in 2018. Finally getting a chance to pick that up (and indeed, preordered a copy on Amazon today).

      • Allerka

        Exactly. I suppose there are far worse things to be predictable with in your writing. I’ve still got my original copy of the omnibus, so I’m good there. 😛

  • I don’t think many people, gamers or otherwise, really oppose diversity. Be it in female characters or characters with different ethnicity. We all love our Bequins, Tallarns, Salamanders.. heck some people even like Tau.

    They just oppose the “give them an inch and they take a mile and ask you why they didn’t get two” approach of the third-wave feminists and radical social justice people.
    And looking at what Marvel has devolved into it’s not that far off a fear.

    • I mean, I read a lot of Black Library fiction and there are A LOT of standout female characters all over the place. Inquisitors, Guard, Sororitas, even Sisters of Silence. Nevermind Rogue Traders, ship captains, navigators, astropaths – they even showed Guilliman’s mommy!

      Women were never absent from the setting, though some stories may not have had any of note for the simple reason that they were straight up Space Marine vs Orks, Chaos Marines, Tyranids or what not.
      Even the early Ultramarines novels, Nightbringer and Warriors of Ultramar, had neat women characters, and anything Eldar usually has a female commander. Shadowsun is the big lead in most things Tau while Farsight was basically exiled.

      There are just no female Space Marines (or Orks and Tyranids because both are agender to begin with), and that’s perfectly fine.

  • Dan

    “Here’s an article about how people on the forums are decrying adding more diversity to 40K”

    I tried to write two comments on the diversity article a couple of days ago. One that Salamanders being real, literal blackface is a ticking timebomb and GW should hire some diversity consultants starting with making the Salamanders a black chapter with actual afrocentric philosophical underpinnings and lore.

    The other about the historical and current rampancy of sexual assault against women in wartime and how that realistically figures more prominently into historical and current deployment of women combatants than “theyre not strong” or whatever.

    I think people are more willing to accept diversity, even desire it, than you give them credit for. I think most complaints centre around Space Marines and Geneseed which have long been specifically male things in the backstory. More importantly there they make for great science fiction literature on the subject of discrimination. The female equivalents of Space Marines are Sororitas whom are basically equal to and are required to face the same tasks and hardships of Space Marines without any of the same advantages given to them by society. It’s great imagery and if we want feminist stories we need some misogyny for heroes to fight against

    • memitchell

      There’s nothing feminine about Sororitists or female I-Guard soldiers. In fact, both are not particularly human. And, we really don’t need to introduce mysogyny into a background made for teenage boys to give females something to resist..

      • Dan

        except teenage boys are probably the one demographic that needs to be taught about misogyny the most.

        • euansmith

          I keep hearing that these Millennials are better than us old Nexus 6 models. Fingers crossed this is true.

          • Not them but their kids should be.

          • Iconoc1ast

            Tears in the rain…

          • Spacefrisian

            I thought us old ones were T800s unable to shapeshift but still superior and badass inevery way.

          • euansmith
          • palaeomerus

            Well come on…John Conner the nano-zombie? Everything after the Electric Image liquid metal terminator except maybe the motorcycle things in Salvation have been silly crap. Especially the liquid metal + endo-skeleton one Kristanna Locken played.

        • Drpx

          “Son, it’s time I tell you about misogyny.”

          “What’s misogyny, Dad?”

          “It means you treat girls the way other girls treat girls. Don’t be a misogynist, son. Be better.”

    • euansmith

      “The female equivalents of Space Marines are Sororitas whom are basically
      equal to and are required to face the same tasks and hardships of Space
      Marines…”

      In high heels!

      That’s a good point you make, and the point is rather reinforced by the lack of model and codex support for the force.

      Maybe it is time for Cawl to reveal his secret project; Promaris Sororitas. And maybe their minis and background could be handed over to some female designers to see what they come up with.

      • Dan

        Not a bad idea though I still think Primaris Marines should be both male and female and that old school ones should be solely male. What a delightful story hook.

        Was it a mistake in the lore? Was it intentional? Is it just a metaphor for sexism? Does it call into doubt the Emperor? What do the Primarchs think? Will some be sexist and others open to the idea? What do the older Space Marines think? So many opportunities…

        • Spacefrisian

          We would have had female Primarchs if Malcador had his way.

          • euansmith

            What about those two missing Primarchs?

          • palaeomerus

            The Rainbow Warriors primarch and Scrappy Doo?

        • Rasheed Jones

          While were at it lets go ahead and just have the Eldar join the imperium. You lnow what lets streamline the whole setting, youve got your orks, tyranids, chaos, and i guess dark eldar on one side, and we can put the tau imperium, and regular eldar on another side. Perfect.

        • palaeomerus

          The lore is supposed to be gross and dehumanizing and alienating. So let’s make it friendlier and more familiar!

      • Jabberwokk

        Primaris sisters could be cool idea but I would be cautious. From what I hear there was a go fund me for plastic sisters that failed to garner enough support. If true there may not be enough demand and GW would take a loss catering to a vocal micro-minority.

        They might want to test the waters first with a few limited releases and see how the market responds. If it’s good go for it.

        The other problem is Lore. Pandering is bad and ret conning is bad. What threat would require such an undertaking that could not be filled with Primaris Marines, Normie Marines, and/or the Guard? The other issue would be the emperor himself. Marines were his greatest creation so it would be heretical for cwal(almost already is with primaris IMO) to improve upon the Emperor greatest achievement.

        I’m all for it if you can make make sense with out undercutting the current setting and the history of the story.

        • Dan

          Cawl undermining the emperor with female primaris and committing heresy is a super interesting story thread though. Thats not retconning, thats bold story telling!

          • Jabberwokk

            The Inquisition would have a field day and Slanesh would be licking his/her/it’s chops.

            ……

            not to mention the sudden influx of Rule 34 material on the internet…..on second thought this might be a bad idea.

          • palaeomerus

            Slaanesh already picked up the Emperor’s children as a bowling spare.

          • Jonathon Runge

            If Cawl had help from say the Dragon of Mars as an explanation for challenging the Emperors biological designs I would welcome the Heresy and be less hateful of the Primaris Marines. As it stands however my Custodes and Inquisitors will continue their secret campaign to purge the Primaris from the galaxy.

        • euansmith

          The Shield Wolf project is coming back in a modified form.

          From what I understand, their issue was that they were trying to kickstart two separate armies, fantasy and sci-fi, with multiple units on offer for each.

          However, looking at the comments, it apparently became clear that backers were interested in only a couple of the units. Shield Wolf faced being stuck with making mold that customers weren’t interested in.

          As a result, they cancelled the project and will relaunch with just one unit for each of the forces on offer.

          I don’t know what this says about the commercial viability of a “Sisters Faction”.

          Maybe Primaris Sisters would be something like beefed up Sisters of Silence; with abilities that aren’t available to the male Primaris? Or, maybe it turns out that Cawl was secretly female and used her genetic material when messing around with the Primaris Project?

          Personally I would prefer for an integrated force, with mixed units rather like the Eldar have.

          • Jabberwokk

            Well I can tell you from a business stand-point it’s not encouraging. I hope nothing for the best for them.

            Say here’s an idea. What if the emperor Was a little peeved at Cawl and upgraded sisters to not only enforce worship of only him as well as proving a point(I’m the one and only around here Cawl!). They are Nuns with Guns after all so why not go with the religious while purging angle?

            just an idea.

            I thought of some kind of Warp storm causing metamorphisis but there was nothing I could think of that did not end in heresy. Anything Done by the warp is. even when it isn’t. Poor Captain Titus.

          • euansmith

            What happens in the Warp, stay in the Warp… except for when it doesn’t. For those occasions the Emperor gave us Grey Knights.

            Shield Wolf’s previous project, to fund a fantasy female barbarian army when through the same cycle of cancellation and rebirth. It might become their business model 😉

          • Drpx

            They won’t promote the Sisters more because the Sisters are segregated into their own units, and this is about showing women are just as strong as men and can perform the same tasks equally well. Never mind that having an all-female army win a war against an all-male army would do just that, but y’know, it’s *current year* and we have to follow the trends.

          • Jabberwokk

            Well I’ve done 16 years of Martial arts, whose whole purpose is to find a way to help the weak overcome the strong, and what I’ve learned is whoever said size/strength doesn’t matter was smoking the good stuff. Women have a different ‘strength’ all their own (which I value and admire)for certain but it isn’t combat. That said there are exceptions but they’re are exceedingly rare where as finding weak men in my experience is far more common. Too common for my liking.

      • Drpx

        You could argue they had it worse since Matt Ward kills them every time he needs a massacre victim and is bored with Guard.

        • euansmith

          Speak not the name of the accursed one, for it is anathema and an offence to the blessed fluff.

          • Jabberwokk

            Amen.

          • palaeomerus

            That stayeth firmly stuck to the holy wall and falleth off to the boys room floor not.

      • Rasheed Jones

        Its not black face, they recruit from nocture, the people of nocfurne are naturally dark skinned, the gene seed reaction just makes them darker.

        • palaeomerus

          From what I read if you put ANY marine under a harsh sun they darken up fast as a survival response. No idea what the glowing eyes crap is though except someone like an Admiral Thrawn picture or an old school Drow drawing or something.

    • frank

      i love salamanders they are the one truly human-heroic space marine chapter they look scary but only to the enemies of the god emperor, to the normal humans that they encounter they are unlike any other chapter in that their leadership is still heavily involved in the lives of those on their recruiting worlds after they join the ranks of the astartes and they really care about the people of the empire. they are incredibly capable of maintaining their own equipment freeing them to have their tech marines achieve levels of technological proficiency that is unheard of in many chapters.
      salamanders are not picaninnies, if salamanders are black face its the only positive black face trope I’ve ever heard of. should salamanders be stereotypes of black culture? just saying you can disagree but think about what you are saying, is it really more offensive than say the Tallarn? that the implantation of the black skinned primarch’s genes mean that the resultant warriors racist becouse of three defining characteristics of who the chapter aside from skin color are:
      1. salamanders are strong defenders of mankind who fight for the emperor without loosing their humanity.
      2. that they are beloved by the loyal citizens they encounter and have strong family ties that don’t end when they are inducted to the marines.
      3. that they are self reliant and highly capable technological proficiency beyond that of many of their peers.
      if these characteristics are black face and that they do not represent Black culture, id like to know what you think would be a better way to represent them? should they be the black panthers legion, a primitive space marine tribe with voodoo priests for librarians or, the hip hop chapter that is all about the bling? just wondering how you think the chapter should be depicted to make them not a “ticking time bomb”?

      • Jabberwokk

        Yeah it didn’t make any sense to me. Salamanders are potentially stereotypical so we fix it by encouraging widely held traits associated with stereotypical ‘Black’ attributes. GW already has it right IMO.

        You put a fro on a salamander and prepare to get F’d up the A by special interest groups.

        It’s funny we used to believe imitation was the sincerest form of flattery because you thought there was something worth emulating. Now we can’t because appropriation or some nonsense. sad.

      • Dan

        Them having shoe-polish black faces is the ticking time bomb part. A lengthy discourse on how they’re heroic and exemplar isn’t going to make a difference to some awkward photos snowballing into widespread outrage online. They look like minstrels. That’s the only thing people who aren’t versed in any kind of 40K lore are going to see or hear.

        My suggestion to change them to a natural skin tone is literally just that. I’m not suggesting they get afros and play basketball or whatever. Simply give them a skin tone that doesn’t appear to be referencing hot-button racially charged imagery.

        As for updating their background a bit I’m not suggesting giving them stereotypical black or African cultural queues. I’m suggesting subtly updating their fluff to have more of an Afrocentric bearing. Afrocentrism, to the extent of my knowledge, isn’t just one big Kwanzaa dress-up party, it’s a broad range of philosophical and logical frameworks based on those African cultures tend to have. We have Afrocentric schools which have different teaching philosophies and methodologies and have nothing to do with race outside that.

        In fact if you look at the Salamanders backstory with it’s focus on community, leadership being in touch with their power base, self-reliance etc. If I had to guess they had already written the Salamanders as following those kind of Afrocentric philosophies in mind. I’m just suggesting they lean a bit more into that.

        • I had figured that “black brown or tanned skins” was too challenging for some painters. This made since to me due to layering which isn’t really the way skin works irl. most articles have been skinning backwards, seemed to me.
          Natural skins are actually a lot of fun to paint and can be a good challenge for those that like interesting models. It would be nice to see more of that.

        • Jabberwokk

          Yeah but to the perpetually offended you could take it as ERMAGERD They are comparing us to people who live in darkness and hun wildlife and wear there skin as trophies with spears!!! You won’t win so the only thing you can do I not play.

          There’s also the problem that there Primarch is named Vulkan modled after the Roman myth of Vulcan the god of fire and the forge which is the primary inspiration for the whole faction including the rules. That’s why they get Master Crafted Thunder hammers.

        • frank

          really that’s the time bomb is their obsidian skin? are they too black for a fantasy setting? also by your do it for people who know nothing about the game setting logic is actually part of the problem, its the kinda logic that would see them remove any wolf parts on space wolves minis and remove Slaanesh as well for being too offensive to some audiences. I’ve seen some bad pics of salamanders normally done up by some casually racist A$$ hole and then freaked out about by people who know nothing about the game. while i see your point and appreciate you taking the time to respond GW adding more black influence to the story isn’t going to fix the problem of people who know nothing about the chapter freaking out. Think about the way that it would be manifest in the minis and art, it would probably be worse than not changing a thing. salamanders can have different skin tones in the story but they are more ashy grey shades according to the fluff so their is other tones, they become pitch black as they age. Also do you think adding red eyed Black men to the game with various skin tones would improve a thing about the salamanders cuz unless you change everything about them its not going to look less racist to a casual observer to see them with multiple tones to their skin.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Its generally the lack of racial diversity in the setting (in regards to artwork and models)

            It makes them stand out.

            They also used to just be black guys, and I think white guys before that. I don’t know why they changed their only black marine chapter to be blackfacey

          • frank

            Black face was not normally jet black you do know that right?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            the poorer travelling minstrels shows used black boot polish, which is errr black

          • frank

            Makes sense but still doesn’t mean that that was the majority of preferences in black face either.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            They were the most common, which the gollywog was based on. The stage and movie minstrells used brown paint to look better, and add…. realism

          • frank

            interested to know were you found that information?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            british tv doc I watched a few years a go.

          • frank

            I can’t find anything saying jet black is most common? but you did watch an unnamed documentary a few years back an i cant argue with that.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I more than happy to say I’m wrong on this. I can only be sure that boot polish was used, and that most minstrel shows were travelling low class affairs.

          • frank

            yea i will agree that the majority do not seem to be the highest class affairs but they were not the most common examples. Does the fact that a number of these performers used dark makeup mean that the salamanders fit the build for black face. seems weird that because some performers used obsidian black paint typically accompanied with exaggerated lips and or unpainted eyes the salamanders chapter marines with their dark skin and red eyes look like black face. if it was black face and big lips id say yea that is pretty racist but dark black skin does not equal black face.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I use the term in a sort of general way. Blackface as a term can be used describe a disrespectful way of representing black people by dressing up white guys.

            So when GW decided to shaft the only all black legion, to then paint what minis designed to be Caucasian* in solid black, they are basically using blackface.

            They purposely chose to not have black marine chapter for whatever reason.

            *in the fluff they are lots of races, but the models faces are basically hyper macho European.

          • frank

            I do agree that the fluff is pretty diverse but that doesn’t mean salamanders are black face. If anything it would seem that GW changing them to not be the African legion a decision made to not have to add a line of ethnically black would be entirely to satisfy people who call fowl at having black space-marines without producing racially specific upgrades for space marine chapters. also its nice to see that people don’t seem to get why black face was offensive, never heard such a broad definition used with blackface which has pretty specific continuations historically that are incredibly offensive but now can be redefined whenever someone depicts black skinned people in a way that we don’t think is ethnically accurate. misusing terms in this way removes their clarity and makes them meaningless.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            http://black-face.com/ is good site on this topic

          • frank

            it is a good site it also makes clear that a character in black face was a racial clown. they were stereotyped images of black people that helped to enforce the social inferiority of black people. it wasn’t offensive because it was white people dressed in black makeup its what it stood for “Blackface is more than just burnt cork applied as makeup.
            It is a style of entertainment based on racist Black stereotypes
            that began in minstrel shows and continues today.” the offensive thing about the makeup is the negativity it promoted. just being offended that they are not non European looking enough but have dark skin is not the same as being offended at the use of black face. i dont know what it is but its not black face that you are bothered by about the salamanders.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            So when they dropped the only black chapter for ‘guys with just a black face’ its pretty much that.

          • Drpx

            Because they were Brits and thought it was funny. See what Stormboyz used to look like.

        • Pat H

          Amazing couldn’t have said it better myself. What would we do without brave hipsters like you to get offended on behalf of minorities everywhere.

      • Drpx

        All “cultures” of Earth gone and dust by the time of the setting. The whole point of the Imperium is all of humanity dedicated to surviving against Lovecraft horrors and aliens which they achieve through worship of a God Emperor. There wouldn’t be a black/white culture.

      • Spacefrisian

        Lets forget Spacewolves track record of being nice to humanity is a bit bigger and doesnt extend to just there own planet.

        • frank

          didn’t say that space wolves or any particular chapters that were bad its just that the salamanders are supposed to actually live with their human kin after recruitment as heads of the clans they come from, so they are known for particular care towards normal humans and minimizing collateral damage when they fight on any planet.

        • I mean, sure, the Months of Shame speak a lot for the Space Wolves, but the Salamanders are the big humanitarians of the big Chapters. Space Wolves are fully capable of being savage killers, but Salamanders will put themselves and their own honor behind the well-being of normal mortals. Their core identity makes them a lot more caring on that front.

      • palaeomerus

        Before Forgeworld Salamanders were Ultramarines with green armor.

  • Are these preachy articles going to be the new standard here?

    • euansmith

      I guess until things change.

      • It’s all just bad distraction from the more important issue and we all know it. No one will say it but we know it! The only thing that matter.
        Orks getting a good codex.
        You see! it all makes since! This article gives them away! Fools, we all know the truth!

        • Shhh never utter the phrase, it will not come until it is forgotten to us

        • euansmith

          Dey shud juz give uz sum skissors, a glu pot and all da bezt bitz ov da uva Kodexexesis. Kodex: Looted

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          wouldn’t mind a female ork warlord.

          • My warboss looks forward to shearing it in half.

          • Drpx

            They had female Orks once-upon a time. They got phased out in favor of the fungus. Ooh, maybe they’ll come back.

          • euansmith

            Those were some horrible minis though 😀

          • Jonathon Runge

            Haven’t you noticed. The Orks are all female. Just not by human standards.

          • palaeomerus

            I’m not sure they are eukaryotic. Orcs is different though, so different we callsz dem orruks now.

        • Drpx

          If we only have good codices, then where’s the diversity? Need more bad codices, it’s *current year*.

          • Wait, I’ve heard of that. diversity.. An Old Old wooden ship. right?

      • Drpx

        Until someone dethrones Guard from the meta, we can all navel gaze.

  • Dmitrij Pozdniakov

    I have no problems with female guardsmen (shoving women to the frontline is a good sign of how hard-pressed Imperium is, as well as variety of it’s cultures).
    In fact, it’s past time for child soldiers to join the ranks of the AM (as Conscripts) 🙂
    But be not mistaken people, our community is under assault by the same scum who already ruined Occupy wall street, new Atheism, Comicbooks and other groups.

    Be vigilant!

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      I kind of feel those communities were toxic to begin with.

      • TenDM

        Yeah. Everyone likes to bring up Marvel’s All New, All Different failing, but they forget Marvel were desperate enough to try All New, All Different because All White, All Male was not just failing to sell comics but actively stopping them from bringing in new readers.

        • And now they lost more readers than they gained, effectively accelerating their failure and in a domino effect forcing a bunch of comic stores out of business while others refocus on other avenues like Manga and more merchandise, and struggle selling off even their mandatory stock. Funny how that worked out.

          • TenDM

            Marvel’s execution sucked, the plan to replace everyone was never going to work, but trying something new was better than doubling down on a reader base that was only sticking around to complain. Nothing has indicated that GW are going down the same ‘it’s the real Thor and Iron Man, but the real Thor and Iron Man aren’t the real Thor and Iron Man, but they are’ route as Marvel.

            It seems like some of the creative people there are just trying to be more socially responsible in their work. Aaron seems to have already done what he wanted to do and aside from alienating a bunch of people no rational human being should ever want to interact with it’s hasn’t broken anything.

        • palaeomerus

          Sales got lower not higher.

    • Drpx

      I doubt it’s under assault. GW is going to mold some Guard with long hair and thin faces, make a few new characters and everyone will shut up about this a month later.

      • Jonathon Runge

        There are already thrid party companies that manufacture that for 40k. If people want that they just have to look outside of GW products. If people want representation in the stories write fanfic. Some of the table top role playing games have been mentioned in official cannon. I’m looking at you Dark Heresy 1st edition cleric who stabbed a bloodthirster in the face and lived.

    • Jonathon Runge

      Child soldiers sound like a great way to be inclusive and attract younger players. Then we can all get together and watch Now and Then, Here and There.

  • I’d love to see new Guard kits in general, though if none are coming down the pipeline, I’d at least want a plastic upgrade sprue akin to that Genestealer Cults got.

    HOWEVER, from a lore perspective, I’d probably prefer separate kits or the upgrade sprue route (probably the latter), even if new kits are made. Why? Because mixed regiments aren’t the norm in 40k. They exist, and plenty of them, but so do male-only and female-only regiments. Ciaphas Cain of old had to deal with the results of suddenly mixing two single-gender regiments, and it caused… tension.

    It turned out for the best, of course, but I’d rather not turn a blind eye towards having *all three options* available without forcing people to ebay for spare heads and torsos.

    Like it or not, some people will only want men on the tabletop, others only women. Heck, there could be really cool female regiment themes for the hobbyists, weather because a regiment got renown as “the Emperor’s Valkyries” or a planet’s societal structure is inherently matriarchal, prefering to recruit among women and sending men to the factories.

    Ideally, I want to see equality in having opportunity to build either of them, or both mixed, per box, rather than *having* to mix them because not enough heads and torsos are available per kit. Cater to both, have spare parts in kits, and the problem becomes irrelevant.

    That being said, as a lore-focused person, I don’t want to see female Space Marines, ever. Female Stormcasts are fine, they’re new and didn’t have restrictions on their recruitment for the past generations. Primaris Marines are barely acceptable from a purist standpoint as it is. Rather, I’d like to see new lines and old ones revitalized. Sororitas need to return in all their glorious Blanchesque ridiculousness. Slaanesh could go pretty wild in AoS and new Daemonettes that are actually seductive instead of hideous wouldn’t go amiss.

    And for a “new” faction? I’ve been wanting proper Arbites for a decade and more. They don’t care about gender in their recruitment, are all over imperial worlds and lore-wise, we know that all hell has broken loose in the Imperium since The Gathering Storm. On top of that, they could tie a faction release there right into Necromunda’s reboot, and we got female gangers there too. Since bother gangs and Arbites are closely connected thematically, they could just release Codex: Underhive or somesuch and have two factions in a book to make it worth working on/printing.

    • euansmith

      “Look slime ball, I know you’d rather shiv me then talk to me; but the sky is burning and the monsters are clawing at the Hive bulkheads. So, what do you say to me letting you out of death row, so round your most murderous gangers and join us on the barricades?”

      “I’d rather die and fight alongside the Arbites!”

      “Your choice, sunshine.”

      BLAM!

      “Okay, you, in the next cell, I’m making the same offer…”

      • palaeomerus

        ” Hey, stop making an impromptu shiv out of the rib of that man I shot and UURRGRHHKK…c-control…n-need l-lockdown, i-inmate is out and…h-he h-has a las-p-p-pist…”

    • memitchell

      I love you Man, but, man do you live on a different plane of existence? In case you haven’t been keeping up with current events, Man, there are only two viable I-Guard figure lines: Cadia and Catachan. An all female regiment? Yes! Or, how about an all ANYTHING. Not gonna happen, but we can hope.

      • Drpx

        Forge World will make female Guardsmen for $20 a pop. China World will make them for $0.50.

      • I’d really love to see more classic regiments getting new kits. I mean, you really just need a *core* kit for any of them, since they’re, well, men (and hopefully women) in uniforms. If they can have this many flavors of Space Marines, a few different regimental core kits wouldn’t be an issue either. With CAD being so common, the workload is also significantly lessened since they can just make parts swappable and fill the sprues to the brim with extra parts to augment weapon or tank crews.

        Guard as a whole need a redo in the coming years, and they should become a lot more modular as a whole to allow for similar mix-and-matching as Space Marines.

  • memitchell

    Most women are not wargamers. They just aren’t. 40K already has an entire female army. I-Guard and all flavors of Eldar include females (always have). There are novels with lead female characters (not one of which is particularly feminine, btw). Those don’t seem to have cracked the female code. I’m skeptical that adding a few more female minis will change things. I think 40K would have to change a lot more than “a giant rift” to broaden it’s appeal to females. Like, change from a wargame to an adventure game. Drop the whole Grim-Dark thing. Pre-painted miniatures. Different art. And, completely revamp the females that are in the game. Who thinks Nuns with Guns and Howling Banshees are concepts that actually appeal to most women? Just the name “Howling Banshees.” Really?

    Diversity for the sake of it? Sure, knock yourselves out. Diversity for fun and profit? Good luck with that. Diversity to right a wrong? 40K if loving you is wrong, I don’t want to be right!

    • Matt

      Actually a lot of women I know are wargamers, theres a big appeal in tactical thinking, multitasking, and planning. Many are put off by the male wargamers who want to insist that “mah speace mahrines are all boys, no girly girls aloud” but pretending there isnt interest is pretty lame. My wife loves grimdark, my borthers wife love army building and dominating with chaos. Also “turn in into an adventure game” is pretty asinine and shows you have a pretty poor understanding of women.

      • Richard Palmer

        The addition of more women into the wargaming community can only be a good thing, but there is a reason why this is a male-dominated hobby. Most women are not wargamers. We live in a far more liberal society now, where the equality of pay is far more equal than ever before, and women have more disposable income than ever. Why is it then, that we have not had a huge surge in women playing wargames?

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          I’m only saying this once: because, as a group, mind you, Wargamers are jerks. Not jerks individually, but jerks as a group. And if you’re too insecure in your humanity to understand the difference, let alone why that would affect the diversity at an FLGS or a Tournament, you’re probably one of the people contributing to that aggregate impression rather than being a statistical anomaly challenging that impression.

          • Richard Palmer

            Please use supporting evidence before making blanket generalisations and broad, sweeping statements, and you might actually be taken seriously.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            The fact that you need to reply to this is proof enough.

          • palaeomerus

            Gonna ignore your posts as crap now. Sorry.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Why? What’s the problem?

  • Commissar Molotov

    “women can fight just as well as men, and that they have since time immemorial”

    …Come on, now. You’re really not helping your argument when you post pure and utter bullcrap.

    • David

      Women can fight on an equal basis with bolt guns but average muscle-mass must have factored in during medieval warfare.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Fighting in formation with spears, a mix on men and women can perform pretty much the same. You generally just have to stab the person to the right of you.

        There were generally other social reasons that prevented women from fighting. It was uncommon for them to have the training or money to have decent equipment.

        • generalchaos34

          i’d second that, most of that was from patriarchal values left over from hunter gatherer days (men hunt, women protect children) Few traditional societies had women in a prominent place when it came to combat because of the simple fact that women are genetically important and men are genetically expendable (if you lose 90% of your men society will continue like normal, probably safer too =P).

    • memitchell

      It shows a lack of direction. It’s not necessary to justify adding female miniatures, or females to the narrative. I doubt there is much objection to that. There will be objection if this is portrayed as righting some wrong, or a mea culpa. And, a lot of objection if the 40K universe is dramatically changed to accommodate some expression of diversity for the sake of diversity.

    • Mary Ludwig Hays
      Nakano Takeko
      Tomoe Gozen
      Trieu Thi Trinh
      Nina Alexeyevna Lobkovskaya
      Lyudmila Pavlichenko
      Manshuk Mametova
      There’s the Soviet 588th Night Bomber Regiment
      There were a number of female pirate captians
      There were female Viking warriors
      The Scythian female warriors (Amazons) were legendary
      I could go on. Society has rarely required women to fight, but that doesn’t mean they can’t.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Boudica

        • euansmith

          Zenobia

      • Drpx

        Ditto for children.

        • Jonathon Runge

          Now and Then, Here and There is a great anime to understand what life in the Imperium would be like.

    • Drpx

      When your society hasn’t fought a major land war against an invasive force in 70 years and your current military operations involve mostly robots shooting missiles at goat herders with old Soviet rifles, this is what people believe.

      Personally, I blame Star Wars.

  • What’s a sand nagger?

  • LordKrungharr

    I kinda figured in the year 40000 humanity would be very much all mixed up racially and look all the same, but more like a tan color than pasty white.

    • memitchell

      That’s not the trend on modern Earth. Imagine a galaxy with millions of separated, diverse planets. Besides, pasty white might be he new black (and tan).

    • L0RDZ3R0

      Considering a good number of humans live in overcrowded hive worlds where most of them will never even see the sky due to pollution or never leaving the hab-blocks and manufactorums, I can see why the majority of humans would be pasty as an Irish leper.

  • ZeroOne

    I do not get why people are mad about the idea of adding in female characters. Fantasy had some I am sure, and I always thought of Sisters of Battle as being the female equivalent to space marines. That was what I used them as back when I was little and use to play 40k with my brother and friends.
    I
    remember that I even wanted the heavy multi-melta and flame-thrower for my
    Imperial army and I remember getting the old metal ones of the sisters to use because I do not think they had a space marine with a flame-thrower at the time, and I use to rather spam heavy weapons. Everyone I played with at that time just let me do so, as they were just models to
    represent soldiers about to be wiped off the board. In fairness I could
    probably have brought the Megazord to the table and got away
    with it, so take from that what you will.

    For some of us, then, as now. The rule of cool is more
    important when gaming. I for one would love to see a well done and lore
    representative models for Sisters join the 40k ranks as well as new
    male and female models for Arbites, Elder (, Squats) and Guard.
    If
    GW can do it well, then there is no reason not to allow people to have the
    choice, a few extra bits in an IG box is all you would need for them. I would personally love to see a Templars style upgrade box for all of the space marine chapters including the Salamanders. So people could customise their models easier to their desire.

    I
    myself am looking forward to seeing the new models to come. After all,
    if the sisters are done well I will happily add a few to my new Imperial
    (~85% Deathwatch) army.

  • Drpx

    Didn’t anyone ever tell this guy not to feed the trolls? Somewhere, that one is laughing because he got a well-known and followed personality to show his message to all their fan base plus news sites like this.

    Also, there’s been female models in the game forever so I don’t know why this whole stupid argument is happening.

    “GW fights the Patriarchy by making every fourth Guard a woman instead of just characters, Eldar and sisters of battle/ERMAGAD feminists ruined 40k because every fourth Guard will be a chick!”

    ^this whole stupid argument.

    • generalchaos34

      i’d still like some lady guardsman to help fill out the ranks and give some more character to my regiments. plus it breaks up all the potatoe headed cadians

      • euansmith

        That is Root-Vegetablist! Not all Cadians are Potato-headed! Some are Turnip-Headed!

  • L0RDZ3R0

    I think Bruva Alfabusa already addressed this hilariously (warning to those who haven’t seen it, this series has NSFW language)

    https://youtu.be/M56aycpd9kA?t=4m32s

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    Do you have anything to back up the statement that adding more representation to a media/game system/hobby would not bring in more diverse players.

    It appears to have happened in videogames, as well as film.

    Music and theatre were once a mans game, now there are many female musicians and actors.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      Do you have anything to back up that it would? Only 2% of 40k’s player base is female. That is an incredibly low number, and guess what; most of those people are attracted to the game for the same reasons the rest of us are, not because of how representative it is of current cultural and political values. Videogames, music and film are all mainstream pop phenomena, and 40k never will be. It’s a niche of a niche. I’m not advocating for actively keeping females and people of color out of the hobby; in fact I called for more representation. And yes, if more representation makes the minorities among 40k players feel more welcome then of course that’s a good thing. But I just don’t see any reason to believe it’s going to suddenly make their numbers in the 40k community proportionate to the general population, and it’s basically magical thinking to believe that it will.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        You made the original statement, the onus is on you to provide some proof, otherwise its just a hunch.

        Thats fine, but its not very convincing.

        Out of interest, where did you get the 2% from, I didn’t think there was a very comprehensive breakdown of players?

        I think you might be taking it to extremes. Those advocating for more diverse model designs, would be encouraging more diversity in players, not trying to bring up the ratio equal to world at large.

        Its about getting more varied players, rather than some abstract ratio.

        • Nathan Hostetler

          I have seen several large demographic surveys of 40k players and they all say the same thing. Here is an article from BoLS itself:

          http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/06/academic-study-of-tabletop-wargamers-the-results-are-in-part-i-the-survey.html

          Secondly, this entire argument is predicated on the idea that since white males are disproportionately represented among 40k players, there must be something wrong with the game itself and/or white maleness that is keeping females and people of color away. All I’m saying is that maybe we should have a little respect for those people as individuals with their own tastes and preferences instead of treating them like children to be pandered to or political tokens to be bargained with.

          Furthermore, I also firmly believe that if more diversity is introduced to 40k in a way that is both respectful and consistent with the setting, such as it already exists to a large extent in the fluff, people would recognize the quality of such an effort and that might indeed draw in a more diverse crowd. On the other hand, simply shoehorning in a contemporary political message and expecting women and minorities to pony up cash because they have token representation is not only unlikely to have its desired effect, it’s actually kind of offensive and cynical in itself.

          Basically what I’m saying is that we definitely should increase the diversity of the model and hobby range because it’s not even representative of GW’s own fluff, but that we should still have respect for people as individuals with different tastes and preferences instead of forcing them to be a constituent part of an arbitrary group for cynical reasons. One way leads to a quality product that is both representative and internally consistent, one which can be enjoyed together by anyone of any race or gender; and the other leads to tearing the hobby apart for the sake of tribalism and ideological policing.

          I know, this makes me a horrible person.

          • Richard Palmer

            No, it makes you a rational, and entirely reasonable human being, with realistic views. What you are doing on BOLS is a complete mystery. Perhaps you wound up here by mistake?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            That one only seems to be american wargamers.

            “Secondly, this entire argument is predicated on the idea that since white males are disproportionately represented among 40k players, there must be something wrong with the game itself and/or white maleness that is keeping females and people of color away”

            Where are you getting this from. No one is saying this.

          • Richard Palmer

            In that case, it begs the question, if no-one is saying this, what are they saying?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            more diversity in range of body types, sexes, genders in keeping with warhammer style. Grim dark.

            white guys are fine. white guys built the hobby. nothing wrong with white guys.

            At the moment has somewhat stagnate design. Exploring other experiences and gazes can bring new designs. Fat women heroines in full plate, BlightQueens, Old women villains in techno thrones, loads of ideas to be explored.

            Example. Make new guard kit with range of heads, that better represent guard. Women’s heads added for a range of options.

          • Richard Palmer

            “Basically what I’m saying is that we definitely should increase the diversity of the model and hobby range.”

            In that case, how can we have both read the same paragraphs, but you objected to it, and I agreed with it.

            Please elaborate.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            The weird thing about white guys being targeted. Strange persecution complex.

          • Richard Palmer

            “This entire argument is predicated on the idea that since white males are disproportionately represented among 40k players, there must be something wrong with the game itself and/or white maleness that is keeping females and people of color away.”

            I believe the concept he is advocating that diversity is not in, and of itself, a bad thing (in fact, it’s a good thing) but that the primary goal of diversity should be to introduce different ideas and concepts because they would be cool, and reflect the established lore, rather than because of a political agenda.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            That’s exactly what I’m saying, and I truly believe that would be the best way to encourage new players into the fold as well.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I’m questioning where he gets the idea that white guys are being targeted. Its mostly white guys that are asking for more diversity.

            I think that we have seen that the lack of diversity, when it comes to female body types, is so entrenched in GW design that arguing for a change is such a kick in the pants the change may seem political.

            I would also argue that maintaining the status quo can be just as much a political agenda as advocating for change.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            I am not advocating for the status quo, nor am I opposed to change. However, to say that there are not those on both sides of this issue who are politically motivated is entirely disingenuous.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Plenty of people are saying it. My original comment was immediately attacked for being the plea of a racist/misogynist white male even though my position is nuanced and I don’t object to the diversification of the model line at all. When I say that wargaming is a predominantly white male hobby, I mean it in the sense that stamp collecting is a predominantly white male hobby; no one else really cares. Yet because 40k specifically has a small amount of cultural significance, it has inevitably become a political battleground because it’s easy to force people onto different sides of the issue and devolve it into tribalism. That is what concerns me, not female models or players. I think those things are great.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            no it wasn’t. Where did people, or I, call you a racist?

            Its not really done to call your own position nuanced, more so when its not.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            The very first reply I received can’t be seen as anything but implying so, and to state otherwise is simply being obtuse.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            you’ve got a major complex man. It really doesn’t imply that.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            “‘blacks and girls dont like my white male only game so lets keep it white male only so they know how unwelcome they are’ is a pretty dumb sentiment. Its not that the GAME is unappealing to people, its that having to play with people like YOU in unappealing.”

            Really? At this point I can only assuming that you’re not commenting in good faith.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            it means you sound a bit like someone who might be unfun to play against.

            And who knows, you just might be.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            You’re cute.

          • Richard Palmer

            With all due respect to thereturnofsuppuppers, I have no trouble in understanding your position of pro-diversity as a reflection of the fluff and anti-forcing diversity as a political agenda. But then I do agree with your position!

    • Rasheed Jones

      I have my ecpirence as a black man whos lived all over the south. No one has reqlly thought its that big a deal when black people are in video games and most black people i lnow wouldcared more about dragon ball super than sam wilson becoming captain america. Im honestly insulted white people keep telling black people that they cant relate to things or need representatiin when from all my expirence those that cry out for it are a minority.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        black guy teaching in UK and Russia, really would love some more black characters in my 40k.

        Im Bajan, and our culture never really gets much sci fi attention.

  • Matt

    “blacks and girls dont like my white male only game so lets keep it white male only so they know how unwelcome they are” is a pretty dumb sentiment. Its not that the GAME is unappealing to people, its that having to play with people like YOU in unappealing.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      No, they probably just don’t like the idea of painting toy soldiers and playing a bean counting game which requires its own piece of furniture that’s bigger than a dining room table. Your whole argument is a grossly emotional and hyperbolic straw man. Notice that I said we SHOULD increase diversity in 40k, but that I don’t think that in itself will bring people to the game who weren’t already interested in it anyway. And just for saying that you’ve attacked me, put words in my mouth and turned me into some kind of racist/misogynist boogeyman. You’re why there’s any push back on this subject at all.

  • Richard Mitchell

    My feelings on this are the same with GW community engagement and timely FAQs (they still need to clean up their core rules people bowing out of games just cause they don’t go first is not a good sign). It is good that they are doing it, but they really shouldn’t be patted on the back for something that has been the industry standard for 10 years now.

    • Drpx

      Pretty sure they Sigmarified 40k so they could focus on aesthetic stuff and crap like this.

  • Spacefrisian

    No worries brown turned to white before and natures uses what works over and over again. White will keep comming back as long as we need vitamin D.

    And if Musk gets his wish and we get in space we become even whiter.

  • carlisimo

    You see the limited demographics of GW customers and say, “That’s just the way it is, why bother fighting it?” Someone at GW is looking at the same thing and thinking, “This is opportunity to expand our customer base.” One of those approaches is good for business.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      That’s actually not what I said, but nice strawman.

      • carlisimo

        My apologies for misinterpreting your post, then.

  • dinodoc

    a) I don’t see why plastic Sisters and mixed IG regiments cause such consternation.

    b) I’m glad to see a BL author not not call Guard by the new name

    • Nathan Hostetler

      They don’t cause consternation. Literally no one is throwing a fit about the idea of plastic Sisters or female Guard. I think nearly everyone is in agreement that both of those things could only be good.

  • Valeli

    I honestly don’t buy the “inclusion via models will grow the hobby” .

    I mean, I have nothing against adding some new models, but if GW makes 25-whatever percent female, how many of you guys honestly believe the gender ratio of wargamers in stores would shift by more than very low single digit percentages, with many stores/clubs not even seeing one new female player more than would have been brought in by chance alone over the next five years?

    Will it make an existing female player happy? Maybe? Some? Probably. So great. No harm to anyone, and a real benefit to a few.

    It just annoys me that they frame it as being about equality so much. I have a sneaking suspicion the vast majority of new female models will be sold to men, many of whom would like to have female models around for one of many possible different reasons. My army is nuns with guns – I’m not judging.

    And there’s nothing wrong with guys wanting female minis. But I just feel like the whole rationale being given at the corporate level is deceitful at best and a lie at worst. That’s what annoys me (a little bit).

    As such, I’d have been a bit happier if they just gave us the new models with no further fanfare than any other new release.

    Sidebar: I typed this about gender but feel pretty much the same about race. Add ethnic x/y/z? Cool. Add it like it’s a big deal resulting from millennial enlightenment? Annoys me.

    • dinodoc

      I just want to put the Valhallan 597th on the table. Is that so much to ask? 😉

      • Valeli

        No. And it honestly sounds like a pretty cool project.

        But that’s my point. I’m 100% convinced the sales increases will overwhelmingly come from existing gamers doing stuff like this.

        Allowing them to do it? Very cool. It’s fluffy and let’s you have personalized lists. It increases gw’s money. And if it makes actual females feel included, awesome.

        That last benefit, while real, just doesn’t strike me as the motivator though. I wish they wouldn’t act as if it were.

    • euansmith

      I guess it doesn’t matter so much to the current customer base, but, in future, if other people wander in to a store wondering what it is all about, they might be more likely to stay if they see themselves represented in the box art and the minis on display.

      • Valeli

        Perhaps. … I never saw any girls joining us for necromunda though, despite the Escher being pretty prominent displayed on shelves and in blisters.

        … which I actually find an interesting parallel. I assume this approach is why GW wants them in the starter this time?

        I don’t see how that box is any greater equality than being prominently featured in the other parts of the line as in the 90’s. It just biases people towards the gang since they get it with the rules…. So I’m not sure why this new necromunda take is any more enlightened, or whatever….

        At what point is there enough equality to rope in new diverse players then. Would two gangs have done it? Half? Would they have cared if the gangs were 50/50 instead of either/or?

        I don’t know if there’s an easy answer to that. But I don’t think just adding more female gangs/models would have done a thing.

        Meh.

        • euansmith

          That was… getting on for 30 years ago (gawd, I feel old). Hopefully GW are looking to attract fresh players from among the younger demographic.

          • Valeli

            Hahah. Now I feel old too. 🙁

          • euansmith

            I never played Zelda and was surprised to discover that that “pointy eared elven lad” was a female protagonist. 😉

          • Valeli

            Wow. I stand corrected. Lol.

          • euansmith

            Sorry, I’ve edited my comment to allow for Stupid Finger Syndrome. I meant “wasn’t” rather than “was”. You were correct. The protagonist is male. I was just mistaken 😉

      • Matthew Pomeroy

        every time i see a plague marine, I feel represented 😀

        • euansmith

          Bustin’ it down for the big boy massive!

      • Rasheed Jones

        I doubt it personally, i came into the hobby because i played the 40k space marine game on PC and loved the look of everything. Most other black people i know who are into tabletop games arent interested due to the time investment, but will sit down to play dark heresy or deathwatch. We dont even play all salamanders. I always reading through comments get this idea people think i and others like me a dumb and cant fathom that someone who doesnt look like me can still represent me.

        • euansmith

          Good point.

          However, when playing Space Marine on the PC, wouldn’t you have like the option to make the character resemble yourself to some extent?

          • Rasheed Jones

            If there’s character creation I tend to play as a female character, which isn’t really possible using a Space Marine, and I actually don’t think I would. Put into perspective, when I play say Street Fighter I’m not going to just choose Boxer because he’s black instead of playing Guile because he’s personally a lot more like me. As for the actual character, Titus does resemble me, even more he resembles someone I want to be.

  • BloodAngel

    The only real thing I see a resistance to in the majority of fans/players is female space marines. That’s it. Everyone want’s sisters, Eldar and DE seem to be at the least 50/50 if not even more heavily female dominated. Tau are def female/male. Orcs are genderless, so they don’t count toward any sort of stats. Tyranids are insects, and the females (such as they are) could arguably be stated as being the most powerful of their race. Female Mechanicus, Female Skitarri, Female Guard could use more women models, but the fluff is there that supports massive amounts of them.
    Ethnicity is rarely mentioned, so you could just as soon assume the default was other than white as you could assume white.

    My point is, the only people bitching are idiots who are racist aholes to begin with or the “female space marine crew” who I dismiss as a bunch of bronies anyway. There is no need, plus the fluff is that there are no female space marines for: REASONS. Making female space marines would be caving. Everything else is just a mix of whatever is out there.

    • rui valadares

      You don’t know the people you’re attacking. in YOUR mind and in YOUR opinion they are waycists©. Who are you to police someone else’s motives? All you see is that for so and so to make this comment, he/she has to be a racist. That is your skewd worldview. It’s your problem.

      Get over yourself.

  • Evan Logan

    ‘It’s been over 50 years since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed and racism is still a controversy.’
    More like a non-treversy, its only beacuse of groups like black lives matter (why not all lives matter?) who hate the fact that some ethicties tend to have traits that give them advantages in a metriocracy (jews are more likely to be smarter than average, asians tend to be harder workers) and some have traits that make it harder to do well (blacks have a lower average IQ of 85 rather than the 90 IQ overall average).

    And while we are on the subject of the ‘oppressed’, Women, on average, work less and in lower paying jobs, and therefore the average earnings is less than males.

    Sorry, hard work is objective.

    • Txabi Etxebarrieta

      Hey, the septic tank finally bubbled over!

  • LankTank

    Ummm they dictated western society. Obviously other cultures have societies

  • rui valadares

    Looks like GW is taking the first steps into becoming the “Marvel of wargames”. How’s all that Diversity© going over there at Marvel Comics? Not too good? That’s not because of “diversity” per se, but because they chose to insult the public by retconning or changing classic characters just to suit the whines of SJW’s, who DON’T EVEN BUY THEIR COMICS!

    No matter how much you’d like to pretend, most people who play miniature wargames WILL BE MALE. I play sisters of Battle (since the beginning) and don’t need to “feel represented” in the miniatures to want to use them or to lavish my best paint jobs on them. As for skin color, hey paint them purple for all I care. Totally irrelevant

    Unless they make female space marines of Slaanesh (as I have converted), it HAS been established that only male bodies are suitable for the gene-seed implantation.

    As for female guardsman, Orks, Tau or even Necrons, bring them on I say. Just don’t change the established mythos or canon.

    Good story tellers add to the story instead of changing everything and pretending that “Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia” and expecting the public to be too stupid not to notice. The point is: add, but don’t change. Adding sexual diversity (m/f) is fine as long as it is lore friendly.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      Orks are non-gendered. They don’t have males or females, they’re just mushrooms with the personality of soccer hooligans.

      Comparing wargaming to comics is apples and oranges. There have been so many iterations and interpretations of every superhero out there, who really cares if one of them is a different sex or race? They’re all just explorations on different themes with a loose archetype to string them together.

      The problem is when something is done purely for the sake of political messaging and ideological policing, as opposed to doing it to create a quality product which is truly representative and respectful of people as individuals.

      • That last paragraph basically describes Marvel the past few years. Killing off a bunch of established male heroes to replace them with knockoff, budget female equivalents with feminist catchphrases thrown in. It really worked out well, especially for Mockingbird…

        I mean, I read all the Star Wars comics since the reboot of the franchise, and there’s been some troubling tendencies to depict Han Solo and Luke Skywalker as bumbling fools while Leia, Sana Starros and Doctor Aphra come to the rescue time and again. Especially Sana is being pushed as the most awesome person ever, to the point of having an issue with Lando Calrissian whose sole role is to praise her every other page.

        I’m inclined to say that Marvel lost track of what readers want to read and how to write a good story, and it clearly shows in their shrinking bottom line. Turns out the target demographic they were appealing to just doesn’t care enough to buy their products in the first place.

    • Ben

      How does one make a female necron????

      • Matthew Pomeroy

        some things are best left unknown

      • rui valadares

        Probably the same way one makes a female space marine. By twisting the lore until it breakes. I don’t care about necrons, because I don’t play them.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        Sculpt mostly, but i’d never expect female Warriors. Immortals, Lychguard, and character models, maybe, even a C’Tan, but not Warriors.

  • Richard Palmer

    So how would you increase the diversity enough to attract the untapped source of ethnic and gender-specific gamers you believe are interested enough in wargaming, and 40K in particular, to embrace the hobby, but are currently disenfranchised enough to be alienated by what is apparently a white-male only club?

  • Shadowstrife

    It’s about time GW rolled out prominent female characters with rules, minis and decent fluff backgrounds.

    Yes, there is a reason why many girls interested in the hobby AVOID the gaming stores in droves. And GW’s current look isn’t helping.

    • Richard Palmer

      And what is GW’s current look, exactly?

    • Rasheed Jones

      I guess Yvraine, Celestine, and Greyfax arent promenint to the gathering storm. Granted most females in 40k are xenos so thats probably why they dont get much focus.

  • Iconoc1ast

    May not be relevant but the cadian shock troop boxed set is sold out online. Maybe updating the sprue…?

  • In video games? Did it? Because the vast majority of women I speak to on a regular basis barely play games, or for the most part mainstream blockbusters (heck, a bunch of them still play Skyrim to this day), or basically non-gender-involving puzzle games, League of Legends or MMOs. You really see them play shooters, even if you can play as a woman. Looking at my Steam friendslist, very few of them even bought games like Tomb Raider 2013, or cheaper, more artistic games like Transistor. What do they play a lot? Visual Novels and Puzzle games.

    I mean, that’s all anecdotal, of course, but outside of friends who’ve been gaming their entire lives on consoles and playing plenty of JRPGs and what not, few that I’ve even managed to introduce and hand decent games straight up ever touch something that isn’t Free to Play MMO/League stuff. Male gamers are still have overwhelmingly bigger spending habits, especially on PC.

    And in movies… Just look at the new Blade Runner movie. “Increased diversity” elsewhere has now apparently made tokenism mandatory, because not having any brown people is reason enough for crybullies to rate it badly on metascoring sites.

    I’m a white male, by the by, but I don’t feel in any way represented by muscle-packed action heroes or whatever grim protagonists Hollywood and AAA developers come up with. Whenever a female character option is given, I take it. Heck, my one-and-only Final Fantasy XIV character is a grey-skinned, blue-haired cat person who uses a Grimoire to summon pets, not primarily because I enjoy the Job, but because I feel in tune with the character and am a huge reader. For all intents, if I’m playing that game, that character is me, and I don’t care if she doesn’t represent my race or gender, because I chose her myself. By contrast, my friend who is a hardcore all-things-asia nerd is playing a muscled, cocky male monk, digs all the guys in the Yakuza series and completed all the God of Wars to the point of insanity, while still watching Magical Girl Anime on a weekly basis.

    Representation isn’t the big factor for most people. Most people, including those frequently demonized “white male” demographic, are perfectly capable of connecting with whatever protagonist, as long as it is well written and engaging.

    And then you have the case of Marvel, who had a massive, you could say “Crusade” to increase diversity in their comic series, rebooting stuff and replacing established heroes with female equivalents. They even had new series like Mockingbird that were touting pretty weird statements. What happened? Sales tanked across the board and many comic stores went and saddled over to more Manga than western comics. Mockingbird as an example was canceled within what, two volumes, because it tanked. Marvel in recent years teaches a pretty different lesson: Forced “diversity” at the cost of lackluster writing and preachiness doesn’t bring in nearly enough new people to offset the loss of previous customers.

    It really isn’t a simple “add women to 40k, suddenly appeal equally to women” calculation. There are a lot more factors than just superficially representing new target demographics.

  • Nathan Hostetler

    I totally agree about Sisters of Battle and I think they’re a great faction that deserves more from GW than they’ve gotten. Female guard as well. There is plenty of room for those types of things, and many other representations of females and people of color as well. Daemonettes I’ll leave to others to decide, because some female players actually enjoy that kind of thing. No one is just part of their demographic group, we’re all individuals.

    Female Astartes would be bothersome just because Space Marines represent a very specific trope of a fraternity of fanatical space monks, and masculinity is as much a part of their identity as being space nuns is a part of the Sisters’ identity. Even then, I wouldn’t be wholly against it as long as the females involved were portrayed as being very much in line with that masculine identity; scarred hulks with hate in their hearts and monastic discipline as their way of life.

  • Kveldulf

    50/50 representation isn’t realistic. Anyone who tries to say it is needs to go to a gym, or go in the military, or…. simply retake biology. Even the exceptional female doesnt beat joe blow with similiar training/nutrition. The physical prowess males bring, as well mental acuity – for war – is at a level that most women cannot hope to compete in. And theres more to be had than jist pulling a trigger. This isn’t some crossfit feel egalitarian situation 40k is attempting, it’s war. That’s pragmatic. Yes there might be sItuitions where women are required to fight but that wouldn’t be an effecient norm. Heck, why not having children with guns too for mins?

    It would be more realistic to have the population require women to stay on their home world and pump out children – replenish the ranks. That sounds more dystopian anyway… and more internally consistent to grim dark.

    Then there’s unit cohesion issues from mixed sexes….

    ignoring this stuff is a political insertion, as it doesn’t match up to the vibe 40k is attempting. If you want some chicks in your units, whatever. If you think it should be a 50/50 norm, I think you’re being silly.

    • rui valadares

      Say it brother. Effing preach!

      • Kveldulf

        What’s more amusing is how so many want female models, but what do they really mean by that? How can you really distinguish athletic women from men at 28mm scale when they’re wearing fatigues, flak- at least in a meaningful way? I mean sure from a modeling view you can see it but that’s examining it up close. Really, boobs kinda go away at a certain body fat percentage and if you’re wearing flak, then you particularly can’t tell., so what else is there to use? Wider hip legs? Still not seen on the athletic types.

        What I’m pointing out, is that dudes (some) want to see more sexualized accents in their army, because /variety.

        Sometimes I wonder if this advocacy isn’t rooted in some sort of sexual repression or sycophantic thing to look like a champion.

  • Richard Palmer

    Hmmm… I don’t want to be considered ‘touting’, but I’ve just been to the Victoria Miniatures website, and they have the best female guard range I’ve ever seen! If you ever wanted to represent female guardsmen in miniature form, this is the place to go to. It’s awesome!!!!!

    https://victoriaminiatures.com/collections/female-squads-and-bits

  • TDog

    It is amazing how many folks get bent out of shape over this. “Waah! Mommy, mommy! There’s GIRLS here! Make the scary girls and the icky minorities go away! Waaaah!”

  • Slaanesh Devotee

    I’m fine with things like female Guard etc. But I had to laugh when the author of this article spoke of a ‘vocal minority’ who are ‘unable to understand’ that ‘women can fight just as well as men’….
    Hahaha, they can’t~ That’s why sports of all kinds are segregated along gender lines..
    Sorry loonies, gender differences do actually exist.

    • Rainthezangoose

      And why women are not allowed in the real armies of first world countries … oh wait!

      • Slaanesh Devotee

        But how many of those allow for front line roles?
        And at any rate, that has less to do with practical reality than it does political progressivism.
        We’re just being silly if we’re going to pretend that different testosterone levels between genders play no part in physical ability.

  • Bobby Loggendogger

    pander to sjws lose sales, you’ll learn soon enough gw.

  • rui valadares

    Diversity train: check.
    Next stop: Pronouns.

    Prove me wrong!

  • Jordan Cafolla

    The amount of times I hear fellow gamers making derogatory remarks about my Sisters and women in general. All the fatguys gathering around to disparage and hate wank each other about females joining the military while they get winded walking up stairs. I firmly say that a majority of the 40K player base, at least where I’m located, are at best beta male closest sexist and at worst raging alpha male walking penises. Some are fine. I mean, we all have our bigotries despite what we may say, but it’s really repulsive to interact with. I stopped taking my Adepta Sororitas to tournaments for a time because of what I’d have to listen to.

    • Kveldulf

      You do know, you kinda sound bigoted – by pointing out sexists. Labeling someone tends to do that. Labels suck in that way. Want to know how to cure ‘isms? Don’t label people and use reason. Maybe you’ll learn something as to why those alpha males don’t care for it.

    • rui valadares

      Almost reads like penis-envy there. Are you sure you’re not projecting?

      Do you follow those people home, up the stairs and inspect their underwear? Nobody elected you to castigate the bigotries of others.

      Everybody look at Jordan Cafolla: he’s an “anti-sexist”! What a rare position to be in Society.

      Do you want a medal with that virtue signalling or will the Noble prize be enough?

  • Jordan Cafolla

    Well said

  • dynath

    No offense but I don’t really care for the “strait white men” argument. Regardless of your position, gender, sexual preference, or anything else everyone wants a safe place. It’s not just minorities that want a safe space it’s everyone. that’s why we have the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts, and Country Clubs, and the YMCA/YWCA. People want to feel safe. However when you start dictating what people can say on a societal level you begin excluding people from society. Telling a child they can’t say a certain word because of their ethnicity inherently teaches that child that their not part of a certain group in society. It doesn’t teach that child that hating an ethnicity is wrong just that they are the wrong ethnicity to use a word. Politically correctness excludes people because it inherently isn’t about understanding why a thought or idea is wrong it just tries to squash the use of that word. A discussion never happens and as a result anyone who thinks different is alienated. I’m not trying to give anyone crap for wanting a place of their own, I’m trying to express the idea that anyone, regardless of their status as majority or minority, excluding others defeats the purpose. If that means that “safe space” excludes the minority it’s wrong. If that “safe space” excludes the majority it is also wrong. Inclusiveness must go both ways. The majority will never understand what someone who is a minority goes through if they are never exposed to it. To many times a minority group moves into an organization like a college and instead of sharing their experiences to open people’s eyes they push people out. I can’t be in a women’s studies class because I’m male. I can’t be in an African studies class because I’m not African american. I can’t be in a drama program because I’m to strait. Limits like these keep people locked in a mind set of “us vs them” as long as that happens we can never progress because there is always another them. Always someone to blame. Always somewhere else to look other than inside ourselves. You can’t yell for inclusiveness without including everyone, even if you don’t like the type of people who are included, especially when those people are already there. Trust me, I’m native american, you’re all on my land and I’m more of a minority than any of you.

  • frank

    Oh god! Why do I look nothing like my harlequins!?
    Your friends your wife included have a strange way of learning games like i want to hear the structure rules and concepts ok got that down check now let me see the game. oh!? slaanesh exists and i hate all but the sisters of battle for their lack of female characters i’m not playing. could have saved them a lot of time not over explaining a game before you know if they hate the games aesthetics to them before they ever saw the models.

  • You don’t create good product by catering to everyone.
    You create it by catering to yourself.
    That’s why WarHammer universe is well fledged universe.
    Niche exist for a reason.

    • George Geef

      Trying to appeal to everyone is a bad idea all around. Cater to a specific audience.

  • Sam Hillyer
  • Fs21890838

    I its about representation, then SoBs need to have male sisters too, because representation, as women only in power armour nuns is sexist when there are male monks that don’t get power armour, other than few inquisitors, they have to deal with no armour, flak armour or carapace armour that are inferiour to power armour available to SoBs.
    This is sarcasm with a drop of truth in it.

    Or are you going to say that men need to suffer, because few hundreds to thousands of years in the past, a small group of sociopath men made people suffer, thus all men have to bear the sins of men who didn’t care about anyone, be they direct ancestors or not, while women don’t have to pay for the crimes against anyone.

    Oh we got diversity in WH40k, its called fanfics and the ingame player created lore snd model conversions. What you do with friends that agree with you is freedom of speech, while forcing ideology/religion on others is violation of freedom of speech.

  • People that claim there is not enough diversity in Warhammer40k know nothing about Warhammer40k. Some of the most badass people in the 40k universe are women. To claim a lack of diversity in 40k can only come from someone that has no clue about the universe at large.

    Reminds me of that game developer that complained about lack of females in the Eldar Armies for their video games…. Always amazing to see someone come in with a superficial knowledge of the stuff, working on a licences product, which they apparently don’t even understand. But hey.. a paycheck is a paycheck i guess.

    Can we get at least once someone that actually knows the background? Oh wait.. if they did… they wouldn’t claim there wasn’t enough representation.

    That being said.. i am fine with GW offering special bits packs and including a female head or two in their Imperial Guard boxes.

    • Rainthezangoose

      I think its more about the lack of diversity the PHYSICAL miniatures. The fact the fluff and the models don’t match up makes it worse. I for one am looking forward to this “better representation going forward” policy gw appears to be applying.

      • How exactly do you plan to increase the diversity of a product that you paint yourself. I am painting the skin color onto my units as i see fit. The entire background of the game encourages you to create your own unique chapters and whatnot.

        The Imperial Guard has famous ‘Arab’ Units, black units, white units, the only thing i don’t know of is an all female Guard unit, but there is nothing in the Lore of the game that says you cannot create an Imperial Guard Unit from a world that is ruled by a Matriarchy and called the Dahomey’s First, compromised of only female warriors. We have female only Deathcults in the lore. We have female only Assassin Temples.. i see absolutely no reason why there shouldn’t be a female only Guard Regiment if you want it to be. But here is the thing… you do not see boobs through a Flak vest. These women would have to have absolutely ridiculously sized breasts to be visible underneath a flak vest.

        Now we can argue about what would be necessary to have a female head, but i’d even argue that female Guard probably isn’t going to have a pony tail down to their well formed, and hidden in armor, butts. So i really don’t see how you plan to up the representation there. You can paint your guard in any color under the rain bow. You could even have some colors that aren’t on earth right about now.. just make up a story about your soldiers coming from a Deathworld in which the polution is so high, it colors the skin of its inhabitants green. There you go, green humans.

        Heck, if you wanted you could even come up with female Space Marines, just make them part of the missing legions. Claim that one of the missing Primarchs was a woman, and just like the Emporer wasn’t aware that there were twins in one chamber, he kinda missed that one of the Primarchs turned into a woman. Voila… female Space Marines.

        Eldar Armor does not represent the person inside the armor, because its designed to be as close to the ideal representation of their Aspect….

        So really, how do you want to increase the representation of the physical models. You decide yourself what you paint them as.. and there is only so much you can do with people wearing armor up to their teeth.

  • Rainthezangoose

    I f**king love this guy. My favorite black library author long before this post.

  • gush
    • Zanard Bell

      Much as I agree with Arch, ADB is no esJayDubya. That’s a bit of an expected reaction from a ‘normie’ upon hearing the word ‘sandnword’.

  • Rasheed Jones

    The 9lonly thing i know is id better see a start collecting sisters of battle box and their whole model range updated in plastic.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Seeing how irregular some units are irl, this wouldn’t be a bad model.

  • Richard Mitchell

    I am glad the GW is doing this but this is not news. Just like their product support and community engagement they really shouldn’t get a pat on the back for doing something that has been the industry standard for ten years. Warmachine, Wyrd, Infinity, etc. have had different skin tones, integrated forces, and female leaders in their lore and models for a long time now.

    Like I said, good job GW for catching up to 10 years of the established industry standard. Just don’t expect any gold medals because of it.

  • Mars got the flamey flame 😀

  • Gennadios

    “Creeds.” There’s only one creed, the Imperial Truth, everyone else is a heretic.

    “Women can fight as well as men.” Some women can fight as well as the average man, fewer women can fight better than the average men. I spent 180USD for female Guard torsos. They’re not the norm in the IG, they’re the best of the best (as far as female units go,) but they roll the same dice as bog standard IG.

    “This demand for ‘realism’ is just a way to say ‘please don’t change the setting,'” Valid request, I’ve seen the Feminid Hive Fleets devastate video gaming and comics. The modus operandi is to infest existing properties, drive out existing fans, and wait for the supposed ‘progressive’ fans that never materialize.

  • GnomesForge

    I find it funny how these radical regressive leftists think this period will be looked at in history as worthy of emulation. These identity politics have provided the entire world with a cautionary tale they wont forget. The people who demand things based on perceived “isms” really don’t get how the world works. That it wont last, that the pendulum always swings back.

  • palaeomerus

    Look, I don’t want “shocked face” lectures from Black Library’s stand in for Thomas Harris but I hardly buy anything from GW anymore apart from stuff I could use for D&D figures so you 40K/Warhammer people do whatever you want. I’ll just play the old stuff and let go of the rope and be fine. I’m mildly annoyed but really, no, ultimately I don’t care. 88 – now is a good run I guess.

  • palaeomerus

    Which is why GW has a massive and highly successful line of modern soldiers and spec ops figures. Oh…