40K: Getting Better Representation – Updated

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Warhammer 40,000 is going to see better diversity among its models in the near future.

That’s right friends, according to a post spotted over on 40k’s official Facebook page by Twitter user @Timotep, they’re looking to bring more diversity and better diversity to their range. This is pretty much a win-win scenario, everyone gets better, newer, and more models–and gamers around the globe get a little more representation.

It’s 2017, so everyone should understand why stuff like this matters. “Should” very rarely survives contact with reality, though. Never read the comments.

But better representation of gender and ethnicity is pretty objectively a good thing. And you BoLS readers are smart, sophisticated, incredibly attractive people, who already know that increased representation helps diversify and empower an otherwise underrepresented audience. Or that it can help grow a community by allowing more access for people who offer differing viewpoints so that one day you won’t have to read articles like this one.

Or that seeing yourself in a game/TV show/movie/book is such a profound experience that the characters we see become a defacto norm even if we don’t mean it to.

But you already know this, being incredible erudite but somehow still humble, so I won’t belabor you by linking to the myriad other studies, essays, and info graphics about this, because you’ve probably already read these (or wrote some yourselves).

I am, however, gonna leave this definition of sea lioning right here. For no reason.

I’m also going to take it as read that you know why boob plate armor gets in the way of actually representing the other gender here, and why, the Adeptas Sororitas, while an option, aren’t the answer. After all, they’re kind of off in their own world. How often do we all joke that, when their book comes out, the edition is at an end.

To be fair, we joke about it because it’s true.

I’ll tell you though, I’m excited about the increased representation across the board. If you’ve watched any of GW’s livestreams, you’ve probably seen them making an effort to have men and women on the screen–and in an industry where women and people of color see the least representation, that takes some doing. But then to hear that they plan on increasing that representation in the background is pretty cool too.

That means updating their lore. Or adding more to it. Or both, if we wanna celebrate Old El Paso style.

We’ve seen the new female guardsmen in the Codex, and models with much better designs. And there are some fantastic conversion kits out there. But I think getting a story about a heroic Guardswoman who leads her squad to victory, or about a Dire Avenger who struggles with her acceptance of the Path will really help reshape the landscape. When women can be just as easily background and main characters (and especially once there are new models and rules for female characters) we’ll start to really see how that changes the game.

So now it’s a question of what we’ll see. The Militarum and Inquisition seem like obvious choices. It seems easy to imagine a story about a tank commander hunting her counterpart in a traitor legion. Or an Inquisition dealing out the Emperor’s justice to the deserving as she fights in the dark corners of a hive. But real representation takes more than just swapping out genders for extant stories. What does it mean to be a woman in the 41st milennium? Life is cheap. And the Militarum has this darkly satirical look at the value of human life vs. say, a tank. Or even an Uplifting Primer.

So maybe we see a story about a captain who struggles under the ineptitude of her command staff, taking a cue from the fabulously underrated No One Lives Forever.

Plenty of choices on the Xenos side of it as well. The Tay already have Shadowsun, though she needs a little love to more reliably do what she once did. But because this is a future where even undead robots are people too, the possibilities are limitless. It’ll take some real effort to start getting it right, but that road will net us some amazing new angles for the game we love.

And in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Milennium, I’m looking forward to that. And maybe an update that makes the Hammerhead slightly better than wet garbage. It’s anyone’s guess as to which comes first.

Update: The originating comment to the reply above has come to our attention. The fine folks over at Feminist 40K–who I think are doing some amazing work–posted about representation on the Official 40K page and got that awesome response. So give their page a like, or at least a follow, they’re doing some great work to help bring the game to everyone.

You’ve been given the task of making better representation in 40K: how would you do it? What do you think of the idea? What kinda representation do you wanna see?

  • Lutra de los Muertos

    “or about a Dire Avenger who struggles with her acceptance of the Path” pick up Path of the Seer.

    As someone who plays almost exclusively, Elvish races, space or otherwise, I’ve really enjoyed the diversity of gender that exists across the range, so much so that it is odd that it is not represented in other races. In fact, thinking about it, it’s usually the Imperial races that are all men, all the time.

    As for better representation of ethnicity, your models are always supplied grey, you supply the skin colour…..

    • NobiscumDeus

      Well said.

    • euansmith

      I dunno, there are issues with facial structure, to avoid “black face” or “yellow face”. Some of the 3rd Party manufacturers provide heads displaying varied physiognomy; so I guess, it is achievable in 28mm.

      • James Regan

        though with marines, it’s all on personal judgement- we have always had black marines, for example (though obviously the facial structure of a marine is somewhat marred by the fact that biologically, their exterior is closer to that of an alien bug in a skin suit, the outward facing look of them not being shaped by their bone structure but by their carapace- it actually makes sense that there isn’t that muhc variation, as I presume their black carapace just come off a factory line somewhere), though hopefully now we will have more without red demon eyes.

        Edit: but more diversity would be good, at any rate- white scars don’t have a great representation in terms of the models faces, and some legions (like the world eaters or imperial fists) were supposed to be very varied anyway

        • euansmith

          Good point. I can’t remember what the book was, but I remember reading a thing where the in-story equivalent of Space Marines turned up. The normal humans were shocked and disturbed when the Marines climbed out of their armour to reveal weirdly altered skeletons, with extended shoulders and pelvises, and odd translucent skin punctuated by subcutaneous electronics.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Fused ribs will do that to man 😛

          • euansmith

            I know, I ate nothing else for a month, and my body shape changed alarmingly.

          • Spacefrisian

            Lack of sunlight makes us white as well.

          • palaeomerus

            If your spare ribs are fused you cooked ’em wrong.

          • palaeomerus

            Sounds like Halo. “Put your helmet back on! Put it back on Chief! OMG “

        • I_am_Alpharius

          FYI – Black Carapace is only inserted on the torso. So waist to neck but no arms, legs, hips, neck or head.

          • Tore Bolhøj

            Yeah, the Salamanders simply have black skin.

          • barry sadler

            Yet white scars are Asian and thousand sons are north African. I feel bad for salamanders

          • ieyke

            Culturally, and in terms of what they wear, yes, kind of.
            But physically….nope. Not really.

            All Space Marines rapidly start looking more and more like their Primarchs as they age.
            The Primarchs are all genetic Mini-Me’s of The Emperor, who is 8000 BC Anatolian.
            So ALL Space Marines are physiically whatever the Emperor is, plus or minus some mutations (albino, coal black skin, fangs, whatever).
            By all appearances, The Emperor more or less looks like Keanu Reeves.

            So White Scars are a bunch of quasi-Keanus dressed roughly as Mongolians, and the Thousand Sons are a bunch of quasi-Keanus roughly dressed as Egyptians.

            It’s actually pretty brilliant as a way to explain why so many Chapters share so many of the same models.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Sadly it used to be black/brown but now it;s coal black skin with daemonic red eyes…

          • ieyke

            It was NEVER black/brown.
            ALWAYS coal black.

          • euansmith
          • Crevab

            Not sure if Upvoteable >.>

          • euansmith

            It was intended as a mild rebuke 😉

          • Kirsten Williams

            They were originally brown. I was on ‘eavy metal when we painted them. We were then told to change them to black before release.

          • kobalt60

            Any reason why?

          • ieyke

            Probably because their skin has been described as looking as if it were permanently covered in the soot of their forges for ages.
            They were always describes as coal/soot black.

          • ieyke

            Right.
            Just like if you had painted the Night Lords neon pink for some reason, and had been told to repaint them to dark blue.
            That doesn’t mean the Night Lords were neon pink, just that you painted them that way.

          • Drew

            Actually, that’s not true. The 3rd Edition Codex: Armageddon Salamanders were painted not coal black but appearing to be of African descent (though their captain with the purple power sword had blond hair that seemed a little out of place…)

          • palaeomerus

            Dennis Rodman was popular then.

      • onlyonepinman

        I think if people want racial diversity in their miniatures then, more so than gender, it’s in your own hands. Instead of reaching for Cadian Flesh Tone, why not try reaching for something else. Or try mixing something into the Cadian Flesh Tone to change its shade a little.

        Painting a miniature black is not “black face”, it’s just you painting the skin on your miniatures black. It’s not a political statement it’s just you expressing a bit of artistic freedom and I think you need to stop worrying about whether your miniatures are making some kind of social justice statement or not. Not all people with dark skin have African facial structures. People from the middle east or the indian subcontinent have lots of dark akin tones, many are very dark indeed, but they share have facial structures that are far more similar to Europeans.

        I have an entire army of High Elves all of whom have black skin. I didn’t do that because I felt like I needed to see more black miniatures, I did it because I had used my imagination to come up with my own take on High Elves with my own colour scheme and within my own story and imagination they jad black skin. It was a decision made for purely aesthetic reasons and when you pick up your brush that’s really the only consideration you need to make – the Aesthetics.

        • euansmith

          Aesthetics… and the feelings of others.

          • onlyonepinman

            No, absolutely not. When you’re painting your own miniatures you paint them how YOU want. It’s got nothing to do with anyone else how you choose to paint your models. If you paint your models all white and someone gets upset or offended that’s on them. If you paint some or all of them black and someone gets upset or offended that is on them. You paid the money for those miniatures and you have the right to express your creativity with them however you see fit.

    • Savayan

      Just as a ferinstance, Cadian models all look like grumpy, middleaged white guys. Painting them brown doesn’t actually make them look non-white, they just look like white guys painted brown. That sort of thing works better with obviously non-human races like the Eldar.

      • euansmith

        Indeed, the Cadians remind me of Bernard Lee. Not a bad thing in my book.

        http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/335c6216c8e18e7a4326ded28e61a94a0e6db38f852969577ede5b2498d72807.jpg

      • onlyonepinman

        I think that’s quite a narrow view of race. Do you not think that maybe they look like they might be, oh I don’t know, Indian or Middle Eastern? Not all people with brown skin have African Faces. Not everyone with an African Face has black skin. Ain’t diversity wonderful?

        What about my High Elves, that I painted with dark skin, do they also just look like white guys painted brown?

        http://s665.photobucket.com/user/onlyonepinman/media/Warhammer/High%20Elves/HE010_zpsc09b574a.jpg.html

        • Savayan

          I did explicitly make an exception for elves. But literally all the GW human faces look like white guys. Painting them brown is a stopgap at best.

          • onlyonepinman

            I think it’s more accurate to say that they don’t look African. Facially at that scale (32mm) if you paint one brown he might look Indian or Middle Eastern, both of which have very similar facilal structures to white Europeans. So it’s far more than a stop gap.

          • Savayan

            https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600×620/99120105039_CadianShockTroopsNEW01.jpg.

            These guys look vaugely Indian or Arab to you? Look, I’ve done the whole ‘paint them brown’ thing. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want them to put in the marginal effort of making some non-white faces with the next Guard or Marine plastic box they release.

          • onlyonepinman

            At the moment, painted as white guys? No. Paint some of them brown? Maybe they would yes. Don’t forget that I am not saying they would look culturally Indian or Middle Eastern, I am saying that they would look ethnically Indian or Middle Eastern.

          • Savayan

            Cats are better, but they’re still pretty white looking. I like GW, and I like 40K, but this is a problem GW themselves acknowledge they have. All I want from them is a few visibly non white faces on the sprues. It’s not that much of an ask from one of the biggest companies in the business.

          • onlyonepinman

            Cats are better if you want to paint people of African ethnicity. Cadians are perfectly fine if you want to paint someone of middle eastern or indian descent. Doing so also counts as racial diversity.

            But what I think you really mean is you want to see more ethnic African (or maybe oriental?) heads on the sprues. It’s OK to say that you know, instead of hiding behind nonsense phrases like “diversity” or “‘non-white heads” just say what you want. I’m not opposed to the idea of African heads, I think they would look very cool. But “diversify” and “‘none-white heads” can be achieved by just painting existing heads different colours.

  • Beyond Boredom

    Introducing gender neutral space marine Veteran Sergeant Ovarion Lackcock. In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, there is only war with a safe space at the back of the rhino..

    • Snord

      Wow, it only took 2 posts for someone to make a dumb sexist ‘joke’. Well done…

      • NobiscumDeus

        It’s not sexist. Brush up on the bigotry labels you live by.

    • NobiscumDeus

      That’s funny. Never mind the drone soldiers of “tolerance”

  • Chris Hilliard

    I’ve always thought it was ridiculous that an empire needing to draft millions of soldiers every day to fight wars one thousands of planets would have a “no girls allowed” policy. Its not like women’s skulls can’t be stacked into chairs.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Women in the Guard has been in the background forever and a day. It has never be pushed to the fore as much as recently, but it was there. As for AM female models, whilst there have been a few in the past, its certainly not been a focus. I’m sure there was some reasoning behind, from back in the day (which made sense at the time), as to why there have female components for the plastic AM kits.

      I was little surprised the Tempestus chaps did not have some female component though. I’m sure as and when the studio looks at re-doing AM kits they will put a slew of female parts. Heck, it may GW will do a female Guard upgrade sprue for the webstore.

    • Barrington Dailey

      If you want a large army, the *last* thing you do is send out your precious egg carriers to die in combat. Fact of life.

      • Randy Randalman

        That’s true. Plus, men and women don’t respond the same to genetic modification and hormone injections. Even with conversion treatment, they are still genetically and biologically what they were born as. So conversion to say, an Astartes wouldn’t “take” on a female as effectively as it would on a male.

        • euansmith

          And that is SCIENCE! You can’t argue with that! 😉

          • Erik Sjögren

            The imperium consider science blasphemy. So watch your tounge, the inquisition might be listening…

          • TheSlann

            No, we’re not. Keep talking heretic

            +++Assassins deployed+++
            😉

          • palaeomerus

            E’hay iSAY A PLANTay! on’tday illkay ourhay arcsnay easeplay. +++telepathic decryption resistant code+++

        • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

          “So conversion to say, an Astartes wouldn’t “take” on a female as effectively as it would on a male.” You make it sound like that was some sort of immutable fact of life, rather than a direct choice of the a human writer.

          Hell, it was only by the time of the Index Astartes that the male-only thing was stated, saying the geneseed was only compatible with “male tissue” – laughable.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Hmmmm I’m pretty sure the geneseed compatibility with the female genome has been part of the background since at least 2nd ed. In fact, I believe (?) it was part of the original WD article on the creation of a SM back in the 80’s – I want to say 88′?

          • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

            Thanks for the ‘ref – found it, White Dwarf 98, ’88, same ol’ “male hormones and tissue types” malarky.

            (Sidenote: I don’t think there’s any actual genetic modification of the candidate – the “genetically modified” part comes from the independently created organs, the candidate’s simply subjected to a series of implants and hormone treatments.)

          • LankTank

            Yup as far as I recall marines used to have wangs. But never identified if they still do. “This is our super human with not weaknesses of a mere human. Except those 2 leathery hairy sacs dangling at easy reach. A single blow there will render them useless

          • euansmith

            That might be correct, but it doesn’t make it right 😉

          • Jabberwokk

            Right? Which set of morals are we applying here because if it’s the imperials it’s 40,000% right you heretic.

          • palaeomerus

            Sure but making robots from dead babies to carry the hem of your inquisitor cape is fine.

          • euansmith

            I’ve got a book about Edwardian Patents; one is for “Bronzing Babies”. Like people bronze their babies first booties as a reminder of how tiny they were; only applied to entire babies. With the high infant mortality rates of the time, you could soon build up a collection of attractive doorstops, paper weights and book ends. The past is truly a foreign country.

          • rtheom

            Yeah, it’s true, that has always been a part of the lore, that the geneseed requires an XY arrangement to work properly, but less than 30 years later we have so many ways to easily edit genes inside of a living person that it really seems like kind of a silly requirement at this point, particularly when this is another 38,000 years in the future. It made sense back then, but today…

          • Jonathon Runge

            It still makes sense. While we have more effective gene editing techniques they have a relatively low rate of success and often poor imitation of the original gene. Genes have inhibition and ineducable traits as well as intron and exon sections within those genes. The XY and XX chromosome pairings have a huge effect on those traits and sections. In effect before a gene seed could work on a woman they would have to have their genes edited to XY which would be an additional tedious step with a high chance of failure.

          • palaeomerus

            Well in Rogue Trader there WAS no such thing as an astartes transhuman, they were just savage often ex-con dudes taking massive combat drugs and steroids to make them crazy & less likely to fall down when shot. Lehman Russ was the founder of the Space Wolves regiment not a quasi-immortal genetic superman with wolf traits. In fact he had an artificial gill built into his face to help him cope with severe lung damage.

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/49844f1dcb1f78538098d99b9c76f60f37bd82738cf60a2b6a11b857500478dd.jpg

            The special organ implants stuff came from the Compendium of White Dwarf articles. heck I remember the issue of white dwarf that suddenly revealed that Genestealers and Zoats were tyrannids all along. That was back when there tyrannid mind control parasites much like head crabs that could make marines into tyrannids.

        • Chris Hilliard

          If we can install a spare heart in a person, I doubt a little thing like one chromosome is going to make a difference. The whole idea of the Space Marine is magic and fantasy boxed up and wrapped in sci-fi.

          • BrianDavion

            that depends, a big part of space marine development is accelerated growth and putting on more mass, given this is what males undergo during puberty, and that the process begins around puberty, I’ve long head cannoned that part of the process is basicly hijacking male puberty

          • euansmith

            “Horus, get to your room!”

            “You’re not my REAL Dad!”

          • LankTank

            Imo im fine withmarines only being from male candidates but the guard are definately needing a more diverse model/lore base. Not only female models and art but I would love some GW painting guides on different skin tones rather than just Cadian.
            Imagine the ultimate goal, guardsman box sets are just legs, and then their is a torso/arnsment sprue for each regiment with culturally diverse bone structuringi ncluding female miniatures. I would jump right into that

          • Xodis

            You do realize there are a BUNCH of inherent risks to transplants of any kind, not to mention compatibility lists, and then they take drugs after that so the body doesn’t reject the transplant right? Its not like swapping out a Lego piece.

          • Chris Hilliard

            I realize that quite clearly. That’s why I think its ludicrous to claim that magic fantasy surgery implanting impossible organs has to follow a set of fictional rules that doesn’t allow women.

          • Xodis

            Seeing as science has proven time and time again how completely different and unique Men and Women are compared to one another I think its par for the course.

      • Chris Hilliard

        The same could be said about sperm carriers. Sending people to die in battle has a negative effect on population as a general rule.

        • Zirkah

          The same can’t be said. 1 sperm carrier can fertilize an arbitrarily large number of egg carriers. Egg carriers are the bottleneck on population growth

          • Rahl

            There’s always clone vats (illegal) or Krieg’s Vitae-Womb (barely tolerated). Though in the case of Krieg, their culture is likely as far from equality as any in the Imperium. Its not that its a complete bottleneck in the fluff, just that the authors haven’t made them desperate enough to overcome that particular vague story contrived taboo.

          • GnomesForge

            Shush. Tumblr teaches us reality is whatever we want it to be. Even though “sperm is cheap eggs are expensive” is a cornerstone of biology, just hand wave it away.

          • James Regan

            The imperium doesn’t care- both are free with populations the size of the imperium’s- they lack for space, and food, and resources, and housing, but not for people, because untold trillions are constantly reproducing. A few million fighting women getting eaten by squigs is basically a blessing for some administratum worker on a hive world who’d been wondering whether you could make radiation proof shelters out of other people up to that point. How many are supposed to live in places like the necromundan underhive, a hell that causes so much mutation that there are stable, biologically sound mutants as well as the presumably millions of cancer sufferers that sort of radiation level implies.

        • Tyr

          Except that one guy can impregnate multiple women. Its not nice, and people dont generally do it, but its possible. A single woman getting impregnated by multiple guys though? Wont change the outcome, theyre no more likely to get multiple babies than if they were impregnated by one. As such you can theoretically have as many babies as you have (fertile) women, as long as at least a few men are around.

          (though its not great, genetic diversity would definitely suffer.)

      • I_am_Alpharius

        What a narrow minded view of warfare. I know 40K is fantasy, but even in human history there are loads of accounts of women going to war. The obvious one is Vikings and early Scots in the tribes of the Pict. Then there are the Spartans that are known to have trained men and women just as harshly; there are accounts of women involved in the Trojan War. To be honest women not engaging in battle is very much a modern notion (well if you can class modern as 1800’s).

        • Spacefrisian

          Samurai woman were also a thing.

        • LankTank

          Yup. And I mean also as guns do all the heavy lifting these days there is even less reason why women cant be just as effective in war. I mean my wife terrifies me and she is only 5 foot 2

          • euansmith

            5′ 2″? Has she filled in an application for the

            Aeronautica Imperialis, citizen? We need more Thunderbolt pilots capable of withstanding high Gs.

          • LankTank

            Hahaha man she drives our car with utter contempt for speed limits and what seems to be basic physics so she would be an ace pilot lol

        • Drpx

          Don’t forget Xena, I saw a special on the History channel about how she led an army of Amazons to conquer the Roman Empire.

        • Brian

          First off, Scandinavian women did not go to war. That was romanticized mythology. Pictish women fought out of necessity due to the relatively tiny size of their tribes compared to their competition, and this was immediately outlawed once the Kingdom of Scotland was formed. You won’t find a single real instance of women in warfare for any reasons other than necessity and/or poor planning. You trying to suggest that women were involved in wars because they’re just as suited to it as men is absolutely ridiculous.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            I’ll just leave these quote here….

            ” Byzantine historian John Skylitzes records that women fought in battle when Sviatoslav I of Kiev attacked the Byzantines in Bulgaria in 971. When the Varangians (not to be confused with the Byzantine Varangian Guard) had suffered a devastating defeat in the Siege of Dorostolon, the victors were stunned at discovering armed women among the fallen warriors.”

            “TV series Vikings Neil Price showed that a 10th Century Birka-burial excavated in the 1970s containing a large number of weapons and the bones of two horses turned out to be the grave of a woman upon bone analysis by Anna Kjellström. In 2017, DNA analysis confirmed that the warrior was female.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden

          • Wulfy

            “You won’t find a single real instance of women in warfare for any reasons other than necessity and/or poor planning.”

            *ahem* – http://thefemalesoldier.com/soldiers-a-to-z/

            Admittedly self-promotion as that’s my site, but if an amateur like myself can easily find historical records of a few thousand women who have fought in war, then I think it’s safe to say there have been countless female soldiers throughout history. You not being aware of their existence is what’s ridiculous and an unfortunate failing of your country’s education system.

    • onlyonepinman

      I can tell you why, even without a no-girls poliIcy, you might not see any female guard. It’s the same reason why you probably won’t really see many women in combat roles even though they’re open to them. First it’s preference, most females are simply not inclined to want to fight so the number of females volunteers is always going to be lower. On top of that, any army is going to want the strongest, toughest and fastest specimens for its soldiers, in 40k especially considering the nature of the threats humanity faces. The Imperium is clearly not short of bodies (numbers is basically one of the only things going for it) so they don’t really need to lower the requirements in order to recruit. Consequently the number of women who can pass the requirements bar will be much lower coupled with an already lower rate of volunteering and the number of women is likely to be very low. The only time where the Imperium might throw women into the mix is when conscripting. Because they’re not short of numbers, they don’t really need to be protective of their females because the species isn’t going to struggle to propagate itself.

      Weirdly the Eldar have much better gender diversity which actually make no sense. As a dying race for whom every loss is felt far more keenly, you would absolutely want to keep your females as far away from the front line as possible (this assumes that they procreate in the same way as humans).

      But I think if we’re talking about female representation as something we want then we have to suspend disbelief and “realism” really can’t be a factor in decision making because it’s not necessarily realistic to include women in combat roles, not in large numbers. But let’s look at 40k, it’s full of demons and magic so suspending disbelief shouldn’t really be too hard.

      • Erik Sjögren

        To even consider realism as a reason not including women is so far fetched.I mean, come on, attacking tanks with chainsaws?

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Waaaaaaait a minute! Are you telling me 40K is not real? I won’t have it! I pretty confident that GW have a timey-wimey portal to the future and that’s where all their ideas come from.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Well with some people here using all kinds of “real world arguments” about how unrealistic real women in Imperium armies would be, one might think that is how GW rolls 🙂

        • onlyonepinman

          Well someone DID ask why the Imperial Guard would have a “No Girls” policy. I was merely suggesting an explanation why as to why, even in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium, there might not really be a significant number of female guard. And the added to that by saying that we cannot really try to justify including female miniatures on the grounds of realism.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Hence – there is no reason not to include them.

          • onlyonepinman

            There’s reasons to include females (i.e. you want to see female representation) and there’s reasons not to i.e. that particular area or reality is one which you aren’t prepared to suspend.

            I think it’s important to note that as well; for any fantasy setting to work it still needs a basis in reality. All the physics must still work for example. For some people, women fighting falls within that category – because women are ill suited to combat compared to men and are at a significant disadvantage, even with guns but especially with melee. Just because it’s not an area of reality that you require to be present in your games doesn’t mean that you are right. It’s entirely subjective as to what you do or do not expect to see in a fantasy setting.

            I personally am utterly ambivalent about the whole issue. I don’t really support or oppose it. I don’t think that it will draw more females into the hobby because I don’t actually think wargamers identify with the miniatures that they play with. I know I never have and although it’s possible I am in a huge minority I think that if that is the case, anyone who plays Tyranids, Orks, chaos, necrons or even Dark Eldar probably need to consider seeing a shrink. The only time I have ever really “identified” with any miniatures that I am playing with is if I plat an RPG with miniatures, in which case I might identify with my own character.

          • Spacefrisian

            A gun can fire anyways, heck even a monkey can. Muscle or no. Guess its a mindset that prevents it.

          • euansmith
          • palaeomerus

            REALISM yo

          • onlyonepinman

            It’s not the ability to fire the gun. It’s their speed and endurance and carrying capacity that ultimately disadvantages women in war. You can’t just sit still and fire, you need to constantly move whilst carrying a lot of fairly heavy equipment.

          • I_am_Alpharius
          • palaeomerus

            Unless they don’t sell. Like the Warhammer Amazons army.

          • Spacefrisian

            Doubt Cadia and Catachan care about gender, actually there is nothing in there lore preffering1 over the other, they lump them together with no snowflake treatment.

        • palaeomerus

          HYPERSPACE IS EVIL AND WE GO THERE WHEN WE DIE realism. And SURE CUT MY FACE OFF IF THAT WILL HELP ME GET THE SHIP PILOT JOB!

      • Talos2

        Eldar are the idealists though aren’t they, the idea that a man could do something a woman couldn’t wouldn’t be in their culture. I doubt it would even be a consideration

        • onlyonepinman

          It’s not so much that women can’t do it, it’s the fact that in order to survive as a species they wouldn’t do it. One of the biggest reasons women don’t go off to war is because the damage that war does to population levels requires far more women to repair than men. The Imperium, with its untold billions of people, could easily afford to send as many women as it wants to their deaths without noticeable affecting their ability to repopulate the species. The Eldar, in the edge of extinction cannot. Now, I don’t really expect that level of realism in a game but it has always struck me that of all the races, the Eldar are the one that can least afford to send females to war

          • Talos2

            Yeah but they just wouldn’t think of it like that. Everyone would be entirely equal in their minds. I agree if you look at it though human eyes they should protect their ability to reproduce and their failure to see it that way is a big reason they are a dying race. The idea that woman could be just for breeding would be unthinkable. They are not evil fascists like the imperium

          • onlyonepinman

            No, the Eldar are a very wise race and they absolutely would see it like that. Otherwise they’re essentially sacrificing the species for the sake of equality and any species that thinks that way probably could not have survived as long as the Eldar have. At some stage in the evolution of any sentient mammalian species, there will be a stage where females exist to breed and males exist to protect the tribe. The lower numbers get the more a society has to revert back to that or face annihilation. It’s not necessarily an act of evil, it’s an act of survival. At best it’s a neutral act. It’s a numbers game that even an Ork could understand.

            You could dress it up as selfish (and thus mildly evil) for females to expect that the species goes extinct rather than them start to have children. One might even say that it is everyone’: duty, when the species’ survival is at stake, to do anything and everything they can to ensure its continued existence. And that means that women will be having more kids and men will probably be living shorter, more violent lives.

          • Hagwert

            All Eldar follow the path of the warrior at some time in their 1000 year lives just as they all follow the path of the artist, seer,politician etc. etc.It’s not about being male or female, it’s about trying to stave off temptation, enui and hedonisim by becoming a rounded and self controlled individual who experiences and understands all walks and aspects of life .

          • palaeomerus

            Craftworld do. Exodites, Harlequins, “dark”, corsairs do not so much.

          • palaeomerus

            The eldar are 75% deranged lunatics who sow things into their own flesh and get eaten by warp tainted shadow mutants on the way to their dark 7-Eleven’s and Kentucky Fried Still Alive Star Chicken’s With Monkeigh Faces chain restaurants.

          • onlyonepinman

            75% of the Eldar are Dark Eldar? Seems a lot.

            However as bizarre as the Dark.Eldar are, they’re still not stupid. The theory of species survival doesn’t really change just because the species isn’t human and perhaps has different opinions. It’s purely a numbers game and if you don’t play it you lose.

          • LankTank

            I dont think Eldar get a choice. The whole species fight to survive. Also ive never read any fluff on how proactive they are at having bubs, or how long it takes, there reproductive years etc. I mean they are hundreds – thousands years old so maybe 1 couple can have hundreds of kids

          • onlyonepinman

            “The entire species fighting to survive” makes no sense. In order for the species to survive they need to withdraw from all wars, hide their females and make millions and millions of baby Eldar.

          • LankTank

            you obviously have a very narrow view on how war goes. Yiu cant always hide when the enemy comes barging to your door. Eldar literally try to hide but when enemies find a craftworld they descend on it. Eldar are not notorious for going on massive grinding campaigns but only usually get involved when something inadvertently threatens them, their webway etc. But they should what, send half their army making their crucial strike far more likely to fail? Or in a last defence tell their enemy that half the army is at home baking. No they fight

          • onlyonepinman

            If Eldar only ever fought on their craftworlds you might have a point. When the enemy is in your house everyone grabs a weapon and fights – we saw that in Soviet Russia. But what you don’t do is send them out into space to fight wars. In fact for a species failing as badly as the Eldar they shouldn’t really be sending people out to fight at all.

          • Spacefrisian

            Dont apply human logic and culture to an alien.

          • onlyonepinman

            Eldar are based on human culture. They’re an exaggeration of specific elements of human culture. Much like Dwarves are.

      • Hagwert

        The female Kurdish units taking on Islamic State are as hard as coffin nails and don’t take any prisoners ……and I mean that both literally and in brutal reality..they kill their prisoners if any Islamists are stupid enough to allow themselves to be taken alive by those female warriors.

      • James Regan

        personal preference doesn’t factor- planets contribute guard as part of their taxes. This also ends up confusing the other parts of your generally reasonably thought out argument for why women might not be in an army- apart from major war worlds like armageddon or cadia, few planetary governors care about their contribution to the guard, in quality terms. They just ship a few million off world in order to stop the inquisition paying them a nice, enjoyable visit in which they are brutally dismembered by an assassin that looked exactly like their sister until she pulled a metre long piece of a dead god’s body out of her mouth and used it to cut apart a room full a guards.

      • Andy Meechan

        ‘Volunteers’ in the Militarum. Nice one. Cadia thanks you for the humour.

        • onlyonepinman

          Not all AM are conscripts, reading Gaunts Ghosts doesn’t seem to suggest that any of them were conscripted. So yeah, plenty if volunteering going on. Especially when the alternative (factory work) seems to be even worse than service

    • Talos2

      I’ve always assumed in the nightmare scenario that 40k is, is that the women of the imperium are basically the meat factories. Having them go off to get killed just slows down production. Their lives are just horrendous in a different way to the men. The whole imperium is a fascist nightmare in every way, whilst I understand the desire of having a fully diverse model range and the attractiveness of that, I’m not sure it’s as strange and unlikely as people are saying. I’ve always painted my humans in different flesh tones though.

      • LankTank

        Orks: genderless. Tyranids: Genderless. Marines: understand male dominant and technically culturally diverse but some paibting guides could help. Chaos cultists, could have some more variety if we are being picky. Daemons genderless. Eldar I feel are strongly represented. Same with harlequins. Dark eldar also varied. Some people might complain about the almost nude models but both sexes in dark eldar flaunt their sexualitu, its part of their jam so its fine. Mechanicum could be whatever under the robes, they transcend that. Tau gender diverse. Necrons genderless. Inquisition gender diverse. Guard definately needing a more varied model set, lore and supporting paint tips.

      • Hagwert

        The Imperium is so vast with countless trillions of citizens that the high lords don’t care if it’s men or women they feed into the meat grinder . Without this process as a crude form of population control the Imperium would probably starve to death through over population and food riots !

      • Drpx

        I think GW is trying to soften that image. Most people want a good guy to root for and the grimdark Imperium is hard to get behind when you’re raised on Disney and Star Wars.

        • Talos2

          I agree the return of guilleman was partly an attempt to move the imperium away from that a bit. They’re not trying very hard though. They still release models with flying lobotomised babies and inquisitors

        • Talos2

          Yes I think that was part of the point of the return of guilleman. But when you stil have flying lobotomised babies and the inquisition they’re not trying very hard are they

      • UnpluggedBeta

        If I recall correctly, it was once part of the GRIM DARK fluff that women were essentially just brood mares constantly impregnated unless they had some sort of psychic gift. I was always under the impression that it was the kind of nightmare fuel setup similar to Dune’s tleilaxu axolotl tanks.

    • Moik

      Skull arrangement’s for girls. Men bring the skulls home, and women arrange them.

      • palaeomerus

        And the men have chainsaw arms and are sterilized so they can’t produce more mutants with soft brown ears.

  • zeno666

    Still GW shows that they are 10 years or so behind everyone else.

    • euansmith

      Surely only seven years behind if they are working three years in advance… or does that make them 13 years behind? In GWs defence, a lot of the “female” miniatures on offer from other manufacturers do appear to belong to the Lap Dancers Regiment. There are exceptions, of course, like Victoria Miniatures.

      • Yep. I’d rather have only properly armoured male minis than overly sexist undressed females.

        • CrosisDePurger

          Do we have to choose?

          • Andy Meechan

            No. We need a choice.

          • Currently no as there are mostly only males 😉

      • zeno666

        Haha I’d give them seven years behind.
        They did produce that transgender elf model on a giant beetle for AoS 😉

    • Talos2

      Females are very important to gw and have been for as long as I can remember. Gw fluff has had some very strong and important females in stories even when they are only peripheral to the story. Sisters have existed for a long time. I’m just going to go back over what I’ve already said if I continue, i think that statement is very harsh.

      • zeno666

        You are correct, kind of.
        Black Library kills off women in their books to give their main character some “depth” or show how grim and dark their universe is/was.

        PP and Wyrd are lightyears ahead of this old dinosaur, not only when it comes to rules.

        • Talos2

          I disagree, the imperium uses men and women to create the scenario of absolute horror that is 40k, often it’s the female character that give the story it’s humanity, but I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. Wyrd have a faction of call girls, dead or not, I’m not sure I’d describe that as enlightened. Correct and incorrect is a point of view, we can only agree or disagree

        • Simon Bates

          Probably a bit unfair on BL here. Individual writers vary, but it’s not hard to think of major female characters with proper agency of their own. Inquisitor Amberly Vail, Colonel Regina Kasteen, Shadowsun, Alizebeth Bequin, to say nothing of Neferata and Alarielle on the AoS side of things.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    Many BL novels are already well down this path. I’ve thought it odd for a long time that modelling and rules writing part of GW is so far behind.

  • euansmith

    Blimey, I thought that “Operation Sea-lion” was the planned invasion of the UK by the Third Reich. Turns out, the Nazis were going to grind down the defenders with fake civility and feigned offense!

    As the focus of the table top game is WAR UNENDING, I guess that representation is pretty much a case of providing minis designed to show a variety of sexes and ethnicities. They all do the same job in basically the same way. Off the table top, employing writer and presenters from groups other than the White Men of Nottingham could lead to an increase in perspectives and some interesting views on the grim darkness.

    • I couldn’t agree more with you. Maybe GW could employ more non white English writers and women just to get a new perspective on their Grim Dark universe.

      • euansmith

        “I have to put myself in to the mindset of a galaxy of bigotry, where everything different is viewed with suspicion, hatred and fear. But enough about my role moderating the social media account, I hope to become a Black Library author some day.”

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          Hahahahahaha! Love it!

      • luke-vdv

        What’s your problem with this awesome thing that we love created by British men being continued to be written by British men. Is that against some unwritten law of political correctness or something?

        • Savayan

          You know it’s possible to sincerely like something while also wishing that you could see more and varied takes on it. Considering both that 40K lore can get pretty same-y and that being a white British male doesn’t guarantee that they’re going to be any good at writing lore, *cough* MattWard*cough*, what harm would come from GW hiring some women and/or non-whites?

        • Simon Bates

          It’s not either/or it’s as well as. Besides, a fair few British men are not white.

          • luke-vdv

            A fair few, true. But the vast majority are white because the UK is one of the native lands of white people. My point really is that why is it a problem that ONLY white men write 40k? Why does this “white” creation NEED to have outside input? Why does white or male necessitate some other “colour” or gender. No one is scrambling for more non-Japanese people to write anime or Final Fantasy to “bring a new perspective”, which is fine with me because I want these Japanese creations to continue to be written by Japanese people or else they risk losing what makes them unique.

      • Evan Logan

        So you are saying that a person’s opinion is entirely based on their skin colour and/or genitals. That is stupid, backwards, racist and/or sexist.

        Ethicties and genders are not monoliths. Remeber that.

        • Simon Bates

          If that were what he was saying then yes, it would be stupid. But it isn’t. What he is saying is that people with different life experiences tend to have a different perspective on all sorts of things from each other. Many things might cause two people to have different perspectives from each other, but sex and ethnicity are among the more significant of those causes.

    • Yes, because hiring people based on what’s in their pants is working out so well for Marvel. I’m all for diversity – but these days it’s really, really easy for the call for diversity to get hijacked by people who have agendas to push. Again, see Marvel.

      As for 40k, I don’t recall specifics, butdoesn’t the Firewarrior or Pathfinder kits have female heads? I know we have Shadowsun. Dark Eldar has females galore, and as for regular Eldar, well…elves are female until proven otherwise. Seriously, look at their bodies. And if the Cadian set gets remade, it shouldn’t be hard at all to add a couple of female heads, maybe a couple of slightly narrower torsos too. Hell, maybe a Necron Overlord or Phaeron. Space Marines? No, with the exception of some pretty mutated Slaanesh ones, but they’d liked have an Ynnead/Daemonette style “half and half”. Orks reproduce asexually, so no need there. Same for Tyranids, though I guess an argument could be made that Tervigons are technically females…

      • Drpx

        These companies will have just have to learn that lesson the hard way, it seems.

        • UnpluggedBeta

          If Marvel is any indication, they will never learn. That being said, Privateer Press et al has operated this way for a while and they don’t seem that much worse for wear.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        aren’t you also pushing an agenda here, by promoting the previous status quo?

        • UnpluggedBeta

          Aren’t you pushing an agenda here by pointing out that he’s promoting the agenda of the…. crap.

    • luke-vdv

      I don’t know. I’m quite a fan of this newfangled 40k thing that the minds of these “White Men” have created.

    • Xodis

      In the 41st millennium though, Im pretty sure the different ethnicity would have blended together. Hell, some scientist expect this to happen long before we reach 10K.

      • Simon Bates

        On the contrary, it’s pretty likely that human communities isolated from each other and in very different environments across the galaxy would develop entirely new ethnicites, as the lore tends to reflect. In the same way that humans who adapted to life on the African plains are different from humans who adapted to the Steppes so you’d expect humans who’ve adapted after thousands of years to life on Valhalla to be distinct from those who’ve adapted to life on Catachan. This might include adaptations we’ve never seen on Earth, but would also likely include elements in common with existing cultures and physiognomies.

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Plus there is loads of background that refers to how different planets/system etc… having their own cultures and languages variation (all rooted in Imperial High Gothic) – its like the difference between British English and American English or French French and Canadian French.

        • Xodis

          Those evolution’s were due to necessity, why would the body evolve when science has made it needless to do so?

          • Simon Bates

            Firstly, ethnicity is about more than skin colour. Cultures. Customs and dress are in part adaptations to environmental conditions. Secondly, over 1000s of years you may well still find some natural selection factors having an impact on things like melanin levels. Technology mitigates a lot, but not everything and besides, a lot of societies within the imperium have patchy tech levels.

          • Xodis

            Well of course ethnicity is more than skin color, feel free to explain how GW should show that in their painting or modeling schemes though (more so then they already do with different types of Guard uniforms).
            Patchy tech levels is more understandable though, but that goes back to my other point, usually anyone that starts looking weird (as in abnormal from the rest of society) will probably be executed as a mutant.

      • euansmith

        I can see that there might be a trend for the inhabitants of Hive Cities to become homogeneous; but, from planet to planet, I would expect evolution to creating a widening spread of physical modifications.

        • Xodis

          Think about this though…in a world as ignorant as one controlled by the Imperium…wouldn’t they kill anyone that evolves simply because “Kill the mutant”?

          • Hagwert

            The Imperium actually tolerates all kinds of “mutants” already like Squats , Ogryns and Ratlings as well as all kind of muties that they use as labourers on some agri worlds and full on beastmen units in the imperial guard. Compared to that lot having different skin colour or eye shape won’t even raise an eyebrow from the high lords on Terra .

          • Xodis

            They tolerate Squats?…..Curious why they dont exist anymore then lol.

            Seriously though, sure there will be minor variations, but nothing like what we currently have on earth. Even earthlings are all suppose to look Brazilian before too long, and we have tons of different climates.

          • euansmith

            I remember back when there used to be Squats, Beastmen and Ratlings as far as the eye could see! 😉

            It is a good point, but I assume that the changes would be gradual, over thousands of generations, and so would only really become apparent when an outsider came to the world. Of course, different hives might generate different mutation loads, leading to hive wars over who is baseline human .

          • Xodis

            Yeah, they probably did some purging lol

            That sounds like an awesome Necromunda expansion!

  • CrosisDePurger

    I like female models so I can’t complain, but if they think this will attract more female players they are wrong. Just look as magic, it is 95 percent male on any given FNM, yet Wizards has long bent over backwards to ensure gender diversity. They literally “balance” the ratio of male/female planeswalkers. Women are simply not that attracted to competitive games. Not saying there’s anything wrong with it, it is just a tendency.

    • Chris Hilliard

      Maybe it has less to do with the game, and more to do with being told they aren’t welcome. I see more women than men at Pre-Releases, but they spend a night being told how women aren’t competitive enough and drop the game.

      • Erik Sjögren

        That’s a shame. I read some female wargamers and their stories about how they get treated as females and it sickens me.
        We as a community should welcome all new players with open arms regardless of shape and form.
        And those who can’t behave should get the naked walk of shame – GOT style.

        • UnpluggedBeta

          That’s the thing, I’ve read it, but never seen it. I’ve been playing since the mid 90’s and I’ve never heard of seen any women being treated as anything but special snowflakes. If anything, I think that behavior of fawning over these women is just as toxic as these stories, if not more so.

      • CrosisDePurger

        I’ve never seen magic or 40K players be anything but excited to see a female player and I’ve been playing 20 years. if anything they get annoyed with the Nerds fawning over them.

        • Xodis

          This has been exactly what I always see in FLGS’s. Im sure both types of stories are accurate and true, but I highly doubt they are as predominate as some would like everyone to believe. Female gamers are generally spoken of like a real life Unicorn in most online communities as well.

          • UnpluggedBeta

            They’re the opposite of a unicorn in my scene; I’d wager a good 10% of the people that frequest my flgs are females. Not a one plays wargames as far as I can tell; I always see them at the dnd/pathfinder tables.

            This is personal experience and thus anecdotal, but I’ve never seen anyone do anything but treat them like royalty at best or be friendly to them at worst. The turbo nerd warmachine competive types will spew good natured trash talk before a game, but I highly doubt they’d do the same to a female wargamer if one actually showed up.

          • Xodis

            Anecdotal or not, its really all we have to go on until someone wants to fund a real study lol.

            In a couple of my D&D FB groups, this discussion pops up now and then. From those conversations (assuming its real and not BS stories) only a very small fraction seem to experience any sort of “problems” and more often then not their stories are filled with kids acting like immature kids, rather than grown men acting like patriarchal scum.

            I would love to see a real study done about it so we can either address a real issue or all admit that its just individual rude people and not the gaming society as a whole. My vote is there are just some rude people in the world…go figure lol.

        • UnpluggedBeta

          Yeah, that’s the norm. I’ve never seen them get any other kind of attention and they’re everywhere in my scene.

          It’s not just the females that get annoyed by nerds fawning over them too; it’s seriously cringey to watch, especially when the female in question encourages the behavior. That crap should be strongly discouraged at a minimum. I don’t care how much the girl in question might enjoy the attention, it’s a gaming shop, not a bar.

      • UnpluggedBeta

        They’re only going to read that here in the comments; anecdotal experience, but these women are being treated like royalty every flgs they go at best and treated in a friendly manner at worst. In fact, that’s the real problem; if we treated them like people instead of royalty, we might see better representation. Some women might like it, but I imagine most think it’s cringey.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      MTG has a much larger female player base proportionally than warhammer, so it might be working somewhat.

    • *raises hand as a woman who enjoys competitive games and sports.*

      • *plays Ynnari and Craftworld Aeldari*

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Shhh! Don’t shatter his narrow minded view of gender stereotypes….

      • CrosisDePurger

        I speaking of tendencies not absolutes. Women tend towards cooperative endeavors, magic and 40K are individual competitions. This doesn’t suggest lower proficiency but lower desire to participate. These things are not based on my observation alone but on social science and psychology. To debate this idea it would be reasonable to challenge gender identity as a social construct but the currently observed behavior is still relevant.

      • polyquaternium7
    • TenDM

      What if they’re not doing it simply to attract more female players? What if they see how the people making comments like the ones here have really negative attitudes towards women in the hobby, and want to try and offset that by making the female players they currently have feel more welcome.
      Maybe they look at those people and think ‘oh god, our product actually encourages these views, we should have never said women can’t be Space Marines’. It wouldn’t surprise me if GW simply wanted to improve their image by distancing themselves from those players.

      I think Wizards of the Coast work hard to ensure diversity for that reason. It may not attract a massive amount of women, but the sorts of players who seriously oppose this off more than just women. They make the hobby look like a bunch of elitist basement dwellers.
      It’s not a very fun crowd to play with or even to make content for. Making stuff for an audience that up tight must be a nightmare.

      • Andy Meechan

        ^^ this.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Ermmm…I find often find its Women that are far far more competitive than men.

      • CrosisDePurger

        Doesn’t mean they can’t be but they tend to be in Co-operative group settings while magic tournaments encourage individual competition. also I’m only speaking of Tendencies not absolutes

  • kobalt60

    If they really cared about diversity, would they have taken the only predominantly black marine chapter and said “Oh no, we didn’t mean that sort of black, we ment actual black, like, spinal tap black, with glowing eyes”

    • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

      Yeah, reverting to the Rogue Trader “Skin like coal, eyes like embers” was a shame. I do like a good “space race”, plays with malleability of the bag o’ traits we call race, but that should really come after covering the nonfictional skintones.

      I suppose my ideal would’ve been have the Salamanders as they are now, but put more variety into the Ultramarines etc. It would fit the UMs Roman Empire vibe, after all.

      • mreindl

        No one’s keeping the darker flesh tones off your brush. I’ve always had some variety in my army, and at that scale, I don’t find much validity to the “bone structure” argument. The features are exaggerated anyway; the right shading will make just about any features work (not that I’m capable of painting eyes to the point where they’re easily distinguishable as Asiatic, but I’ve seen it done).

        • Erik Sjögren

          Yeah, well and I beg to disagree. When I do it it only looks as really suntanned caucasians with black dyed hair. So it does make a difference how the heads are modeled.

    • Doug McDreadful

      Yes, obviously a stupid decision made over a decade ago must mean that any good decisions made now are invalid.

      • kobalt60

        Except I didn’t say the decision was invalid, I questioned the impetus behind the decision. Early 90s the salamanders were Caucasian, codex Armageddon made them of African descent, and nick kymes novel in 2009 made them coal black. Unless you’re a millennial, 2009 was not that long ago. All I’m asking is did it take till now for GW to get a social conscious, or is it just a marketing opportunity?

        • euansmith
          • kobalt60

            Just a pet peeve of mine. I wouldn’t begrudge them just saying ‘we see an underserved market, and we will try to cater to it’ instead of the insincere lip service to inclusiveness. Or maybe I’m over thinking it

          • palaeomerus

            “we see an underserved market,”

            Epic Space Marine/Adpetus Titanicus
            Spacehulk
            GorkaMorka
            Blood Bowl
            Morheim
            Necromunda
            Space Crusade
            ***Decades of sad crickets chirping***

        • Doug McDreadful

          You pretty much did. That might not have been your intention but that’s how it came across.

          I’m not sure what the “millennial” dig is all about either; all I did is misremember when it had happened.

          Anyway, GW have had a social consciencefor a while (don’t forget that the original Imperium was a broad satire of right-wing totalitarianism), it’s just the sort of social conscience you get when the team is mostly white dudes whose only input is from other white dudes; it becomes less easy to see problematic ideas when they don’t affect you.

          And yes, of course it’s a marketing decision, that’s how profit-making companies work. But that doesn’t preclude it being a social conscience thing too.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      In their defense, Alpha Legion are canonically Latin American and Thousand Sons are North African, but I will always headcanon Salamanders as Sub-Saharan African.

      • kobalt60

        Alpha legion wants you to think they are Latin American…

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          For all we know, Alpharius could’ve been smooth talking the commander of the 52nd Geno-Chilead.

          • kobalt60

            Dan Abnett wrote some pretty damn good lmperial army. Would have liked some more about those guys

        • I_am_Alpharius

          I don’t know what you’re talk about hom..bre…ah..I mean Imperial scum.

      • Strategery.

        I have 3rd edition Armageddon-era Salamanders that are all painted up with Sub-Saharan African skin tones. Every once in a while a child will ask me why their skin isn’t literally black, and I show them a page from the Armageddon codex. I’m not going to repaint 50 or so heads.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          A perfectly good reason.

  • euansmith

    On the miniatures side, for Imperial Guard, they don’t need to do much more than offer a few head swaps.

    http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5643ba5dd6ca07df2beba6e9dd46522898b1eb897a5e60f59c1b3daa9c097a89.jpg

    • Dave Weston

      An £8 upgrade sprue would do nicely. It worked for Genestealers.

  • Dalinair

    oh this again?

  • Heinz Fiction

    Boobplate is not more of an issue than decorative eagles plastered across the chest. While both don’t serve protection they do no harm and look cool. A more glaring issue are squad leades without helmets but I confess that I actually like them…

    • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

      Eh, but the boobplate sacrifices prime real estate for cool detailing, simply to announce “Look! Am woh-man!”

      The plastrons of armoured dudes sport gilded eagles, leering daemonic visages, inscribed text etc., while the boobplate gets limited to smooth, banded, spiked, and skullboob.

      • Donovan Palmer

        Yeah but what is the point of female miniatures if they aren’t going to be recognizably female on the tabletop?

        Like realistically any female guardsmen in the would be as muscled as their physiology would allow, they would have super low body fat levels which would minimize the appearance of secondary sex characteristics (eg breasts and hips) and they would likely have a buzz cut. At this point you might as well shave down the jawline of and existing guardsmen model and say its female.

        40k has always been more of a surreal setting. Its grim and dark sure, but often in spite of that crazy unorthodox things happen all the time. Boob plate on models like sisters of battle is no more immersion breaking or stupid than brightly colored, power armored, space knights!

        • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

          Why are you asking the point of including women in the mainline Imperial factions, instead of asking what’s the point of excluding ’em from those model lines? Like you said, it could largely be achieved with headswaps.

          • Donovan Palmer

            Well my argument wasn’t to not include female sculpts, my argument was that if you are going to include them they should be recognizably female.

            We are not attracting more women to the hobby if all the female guard models look just like men.

            Swapping male heads for female heads with crew cuts and buzz cuts ( as would be “realistic”), or making a sisters of battle line wearing a slightly cut down version of power armor that the space marines use (instead of their recognizably female “boob plate) would do little to represent women in the setting, as both would be almost unrecognizable as women.

          • J Mad

            Agree, if new plastic sob comes out and they look just like small SM then i’ll stick to my metal ones.

          • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

            A lot of this is coming down to the subjective or anecdotal, but I’ve seen much more dissatisfaction than contentment with the current style among women; I can’t find much truth in “We are not attracting more women to the hobby if all the female guard models look just like men.” But that’s beside my original post – I was discussing the armour from an artistic standpoint. I simply hope that 40k can leave generic boobplate behind in favour of further including more of its gripping, iconic designs.

            I suppose there is a degree of perspective involved – some people will look at what could be a neutral design, and from its lack of signaled femininity, declare it masculine. Still, I see little value in building around such a blinkered perspective – more is sacrificed than gained.

          • Erik Sjögren

            I think you refer to how women look in most wargamers fantasies. In reality, well trained women look nothing like the pinup girls depicting most female models.

            Most women I know who train have less need for a boob plate than most wargamers I met. So maybe GW should ask women how they would like to be represented. Which I suppose they did, since the guards women so far seem to look like “real” warriors and not some object for wanking off.

            Nothing wrong with beautiful women, but come on, it’s 2017 now. We don’t need every single female model looking like Conan the barbarians latest conquest.

          • Donovan Palmer

            I suppose that is one way to go about it, but from my point of view there are no “real warriors” (as you put it) in this game. Only stylized dramatizations of warriors.

            It doesn’t make sense to me that you can refer to boob plate as an offensive misrepresentation of women, and yet are not space marines the very same misrepresentation of men?

            For that matter aren’t Conan and “Conan’s latest conquest” (as you put it) equally as offensive over sexualizations and misrepresentations of the average member of their respective genders?

            The fact is that this is the style of 40k. Everything is over the top. To assert that over the top female characteristics is somehow demeaning or reminiscent of a pinup girl, but over the top male characteristics is not equally offensive, only goes to show how misguided the entire argument is.

            Essentially you are arguing that women in 40k should appear as more masculine because to appear feminine is demeaning or weak. I disagree. I have always loved the sisters of battle because they were strong and independent and still distinctly feminine, and yes, oversexualized (just like space marines). I believe the idea that the two are not compatible is far more offensive than “boob plate”.

          • Drpx

            If Twilight and 50 Shades are any indication, they want a frumpy set of pants they can get into to better imagine themselves as Conan’s conquest.

          • Heinz Fiction

            I will be clear about this: a “realistic” representation of men or women is NOT what I want in my space fantasy wargame. If i want to look a relaistic people of either gender, I look out of my window and save 500 hrs of painting.

          • Erik Sjögren

            I suppose you don’t spend 500 hours painting a replica of a male porn star, looking ready for bedtime action?

            A female nerd should have the possibility to paint something that is female and kickass in their opinion. Not just boys dreams of how women warriors should look.

          • onlyonepinman

            And who is to say what that female nerd’s opinion is? I remember seeing a miniature on Beasts of War a few years ago designed by one of their femal staff. It suffered from all the things I think that you hate about female miniatures but as the designer of the miniature it was exactly what she wanted it to be.

            Maybe you should let the female nerds decide what they like and in my experience they tend to like exactly the same things as male ones. That is, there’s a wide spectrum of tastes and opinions

          • onlyonepinman

            I think if you ask women their preference when it comes to miniatures you might be very surprised. Lots of women actually prefer the glamorous, stylised (if impractical) miniatures with boobs and heels

      • palaeomerus

        Also it’s because Judge Dredd has a big eagle shoulder-pad thing that looked cool back in the late 80s.

    • Doug McDreadful

      No, looking at it from a realism perspective (absurd as that is in a game where GMO Nazi Space Catholics fight Fungoid Cockney Apes) boob plate does quite a lot of harm as the ‘cleavage’ (for want of a better term) is a weak point and sufficient blunt force would break the wearer’s sternum. It’s on a par with helmetless squad leaders safety-wise.

      • kobalt60

        Fungoid cockney apes earns you 7 internets today

      • Heinz Fiction

        Thats true, but in a world of self-propelling explosive rounds and metal cutting power weapons, blunt force is probably the least of your worries. If you’re going to die in overcharged plasma anyways, you might as well look awesome doing so.

        In fact, I was contemplating about this before posting and came to conclusion that unlike in the middle ages it’s probably a none issue at the given technology level.

      • TenDM

        In theory instead of being form fitting like tight shirt it could be like regular power armour/Cadian flak inside, but with big lumps of metal on the front sculpted into the shape of breasts. Like how Blood Angels have abs on their power armour.

        • Doug McDreadful

          And then GW would be able to introduce rules about how the SoB’s boob armour is actually a pair of concealed guns.

        • palaeomerus

          And they could function as active armor exploding outward when hit by a shell.

          • TenDM

            It’d be an odd direction to go in, but Sisters of Battle having the Explodes rule would be funny.

          • palaeomerus

            ” Oi! Yu shot ‘er knockahz off yu weedy grot! ”
            ” Waaaaagghh! ”
            ” Et’s 2017! ”
            ” Nuh et’s 40,102 ah fink? ”
            ” Buh Ah meenz et…ahm whut? ”
            ” Dey’s humies! Blow’m up! Wotta yu a blood axe all sudden? ”
            ” Yu right! Blow ’em up! No moah wastin’ time yu gitz! Teef es munny! “

      • palaeomerus

        People who fight giant psychic bugs with a power bullwhip and a flame thrower ring and then order the planet blown up if they fail are not especially worried about being congruent with realism. Hey somebody help me get my monk’s robes over my powered armor and hand me my giant mace with incense in it.

  • Commissar Molotov

    Gawd knows I insist on “diversity and empowerment” when it comes to toys set in a grimdark dystopian fantasy setting.

    • Nicolai Zolnir

      Whenever I hear the word ‘diversity’, I release the safety on my laspistol.

      • Evan Logan

        So do I, so do I…..

    • euansmith

      How about one that is played in the modern world. 😉

    • Drpx

      Don’t you know women can do just as good a job at oppressive fascist theocracy as men can? See Queen Bloody Mary for a historical reference.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured
    • euansmith

      I risked clicking on the link as you seem fairly dependable and I was pretty sure your account hadn’t been hacked as you where talking about buying Land Rover Ranger Rovers with your immense weekly online salary.

      Top video; though I now want to play as a half-drow dino-lock.

  • Tore Bolhøj
    • Commissar Molotov
      • Erik Sjögren

        If I had an eight year old daughter that would be an awesome model to give her as her first miniature. Or not.

    • Hagwert

      Great film with great female characters like the female drop ship pilot , female battle field medic and of course Ripley who, lets face it , is portrayed as having balls bigger than King Kong ! If GW need any inspiration for female guard that is the film and it’s more than 30 years old !
      Hudson ” Hey Vasquez … have you ever been mistaken for a man ?”
      Vasquez ” No… have you ?”

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        They’ve already milked alien pretty dry. You’d think they could at least take the cool female characters with it.

    • Kevin Maloney

      “Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?”
      “No, have you?”

    • palaeomerus

      The Catachans are having their name changed to Rombonians.

  • Barrington Dailey

    Dude, why write such post-modernist propaganda? It was old in the 1970s and its beginning to stink. Black people are not suddenly going to start liking 40K – most have them have probably got something better to do.

    Boobs in plate is perfectly realistic. If you look at the historical record, bling was always a thing in war – fake bronze abs, to stupid plumes on helms. Also gladiators in skimpy outfits, yes women too! Read Seutonius.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Dude, why write so pre-modernistic propaganda?

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      I’m a black chap. This makes me feel positively unwanted.

      • palaeomerus

        Think how I feel being a half Zoat half Kroot raised by Chaos Squats.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          at least you have better representation.

  • Ryan Miller

    Diversity must be backed by narrative. Diversity for diversity sake will ruin the narrative

    • m3g4tr0n

      That’s my biggest concern about this entire thing. IG/AM have female representation. If you want to entice women to play, many new and exciting minis that appeal. I don’t know if GW really cares enough to incorporate that into their lore. I see them trying to shoehorn some crap in, and expecting everyone to clap their hands in encouragement.

    • Very well put. The best cautionary tale is, sadly, Marvel comics.

      • Commissar Molotov

        Or the “Ghostbusters” reboot. Beware of changing a beloved product to attract a group that frankly could not care less.

        • Evan Logan

          Yes, the fact ‘feminists don’t actually care’ is lost on far too many people

          (by care I mean ‘will actually support it’ after they win)

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        squirrel girl is a pretty good comic.

    • Jared Swenson

      I am all for more diversity, but the moment they decide to do female space marines, for diversity sake, when we have had decades of established fluff that that clearly states there are no female space marines due to genetic compatibility issues, would just seem like sheer pandering. But everywhere else I am all for it.

    • Evan Logan

      Yes, case in point, Marvel Comics (thank god the movies haven’t been affected)

  • jab725

    just do plastic sisters that you can swap heads with guard units,
    and the the breast plate crap for guard just look a body armour irl (i know it’s a fantasy thing) one size fits all so to say, And don’t do a shoe horn thing for women get some female writers in to do a decent job or people will reject it out of hand

    • J Mad

      The point is to look like Females from 3″. You have to (not saying the boobs) but you have to exaggerate some features to get them to look female, if they dont look like it, then there literally is no reason to make the models.

      • jab725

        i know but it dose stop the new diversity crowd from complaining as much, this is a slippry slope that gw are walking the likes marvel comics fell on hard.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        surely female soldiers don’t look very different from male soldiers once in full gear?

        • J Mad

          And thats the point i was making, there is literally no point into making a female line if they look like males. I can paint guardsman heads to look female. But the defeats the purpose.

          I would like models to look different, either it be male, female, alien, small, big, etc…..
          Why make a line with 1 little tiny feature different that you cant tell unless your 5″ away from it? Lets see the models look different from 3 feet.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            we have a hundred types of slightly different spacemarines, there is precedent.

            Female marines would also have different heads.

          • palaeomerus

            If the guard shave their heads to crew or high and tight and hear helmets we don’t even need different heads.

          • Xodis

            Because feelings or something.

            I agree that females in full battle rattle dont look female, after 10 years in the military its kind of a given. Honestly though I think a head swap is all that is needed and should be offered. The people that complain that “she doesnt look feminine enough” are the same people complain about boob armor or anything else that over accentuates their physique.

    • LankTank

      Actually boom! Just head swaps on guard and plastic sisters. Its not like sisters are walking ariund with low cut power armour that reveals the mid riff.

  • Crablezworth

    In the grim darkness of the far future… there is only war.. and like diversity quotas.

  • onlyonepinman

    Boob plate doesn’t get in the way of representation of females. If you talk about miniatures you have what I call the rule of 4. What does a model look like from 4′ and from 4″. 4″ is what you might look at if you were really studying a model, 4′ is the distance you will view the model from when gaming. Boob plate might not be as realistic but, if you want to actually see female representation on a table certain things need to be obvious from 4′ – boobs and hips for females and shoulders for males. The new female Stormcast models that have been released are great at 4″ but from 4′ will simply blend into the crowd and won’t stand out as female. So really there’s a balance that needs to be struck, do you want it to be obvious that there’s females on the Battle field or do you want to see more realistic female models. The two are mutually exclusive at 28mm and for the former, boobplate isn’t a problem, it’s a necessity.

    Something else I have noticed which I find very interesting is that there is a great diversity of opinion about what people want to see in female miniatures among females. I have spoken to as many (if not more) female gamers who prefer the slightly stylised, more sexy female miniatures with heels and boob plates etc I think the reason for that is because we don’t want to see ourselves on the battlefield but how we would wish to be. I’m a slightly overweight, middle aged guy (I thank the fates daily that I am not also bald) and I don’t see myself in the battlefield – ever. I do, however, regularly see miniatures that look like something I might wish to be. And let’s face it, most of us would like to be bad asses who also look stylish/sexy/attractive. And that’s lots of people, women included, actually like miniatures with Combat Heels, Boob Plate, enhanced waist/hip ratios. So for those people boob plate also isn’t a problem.

  • Austin Kennedy

    How do I know if my carnifex is female?

    • Commissar Molotov

      Is it a “Screamer-Killer?”

      • Nicolai Zolnir

        Well played, Sir.

      • LankTank

        Hahaha oh god. Now when my wife is yelling at me im just going to shout “bring it down!”

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Pretty sure you is like gendering crabs. Either way, they don’t like being kissed on a first date….

    • Spacefrisian

      Cause its smaller than a Tervigon.

  • “What ever, they all splatter the same when struck with a power Klaw.”
    – Bassicly anything with a power Klaw casually humans, or what ever, as long as it’s something small and squishy.
    Like humans.
    ” To be alive in this time is to be one among billions, whatever happens you wont be missed.” 40K rule book poorly quoted.
    “Some of you will be forced through a fine mesh screen, those will be the luckiest of all. ” – Zap Brannigans big book of war.

  • dinodoc

    I renew my call for GW to hire Victoria Lamb. Examples of here work: https://victoriaminiatures.com/

    • Matthew Pomeroy

      depends, if she stops doing her stuff, may not be worth it. I like her models better so far.

      • dinodoc

        She puts out stuff better than a lot of GW models

  • dinodoc

    FWIW: Who wouldn’t want a few miniatures from the Valhallan 597th?

  • Evan Logan

    As long as they don’t surrender to the cancer of Social justice I’m fine. I believe that none should be treaed anything differently on their skin colour , but these peop;e tell me that the above is racist and when thyedo win? they abandon what they were fight ing for. because they don’t actually care

    • dinodoc

      I’d just like mixed regiment IG (I hate the new name) as that is a thing in fluff.

  • euansmith

    I would really like to see “Know One Lives Forever 3” hitting the PC. Those games were very silly, but rather fun.

    • dinodoc

      Me too but it didn’t sell enough.

      • euansmith

        Who doesn’t love midget French assassins in stripy jumpers riding unicycles?!

        • dinodoc

          Not enough people apparently

    • Problem is that entire IP is still in rights-limbo. The current rights holders don’t want to commit, and even GOG has not been able to get the rights to sell them again.

      • euansmith

        Thanks. I didn’t know there was wrangling behind the scenes.

        • They’ve been trying for years from various angles, no dice. GOG even has a wishlist feature for games to get on sale again, and No One Lives Forever has multiple entries there, with one at twenty-five thousand upvotes and the others not far behind. There’s significant demand, there’s interest in making it happen, just… They don’t wanna let ’em.

          It isn’t even fully clear *who* owns the rights right now. Monolith are now owned by Warner Bros (and busy putting loot boxes and microtransactions into Middle-Earth, after turning Shelob into a shapeshifting goth chick), but Fox may have claim as well since they originally owned Fox Interactive who published it back in the day, but then later got bought up by Activision or Sierra/Vivendi.

          Night Dive Studios tried getting the game up and running again a few years back but was denied. They’re the folks that are currently working on a System Shock remake and System Shock 3, and did Turok and what not lately. WB denied them straight up and the other megacorps didn’t want to do the paperwork. Amazing, those corporations, and now Vivendi wants to perform a hostile takeover of Ubisoft after Activision/Blizzard bought themselves free from them recently, while WB keeps doing everything to be the least customer friendly/respecting publisher on the market.

          NOLF is in good hands, you see.

          • euansmith

            Blimey! Maybe some one will make a “Not No One Lives Forever” featuring Cate Toxophilite?

  • Fraser1191

    I’m hoping that sisters come out this holiday season cause who needs money?

  • J Mad

    As long as they look like Females then i’m ok. As soon as they dont then there is no point in adding them.

    • Erik Sjögren

      You do know there are really easy accessible sites with that stuff? Maybe let women decide how they want to be represented. And maybe one day I’ll get to attend a tournament where there also are women players, which is yet to happen. Despite having played quite a lot.

      • J Mad

        Making female figures wont bring in more women.

        PS, ive seen many women AoS/WHFB players, its more of the nature of the 40k game that doesnt bring women to it.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          could it be that men also want to see more female minis?

  • quaade

    Local store has the rule that if a male nerd haresses a female ditto., out he goes. No warning, no talk, straight up pack your things and leave.

    Thebusiness decision is that if the female feels welcome and that she matter, will use just as much cash as the male nerd allready has.

    Also females have less of a tendency to have Eu de Nerd.

    Also the comment about that people choose their own skintones win my price as the most ignorant comment. There are distinct and visibly physical differences.

    Painting Cadians black will, no matter how well it’s done, make them look like a cadian regiment woke up one morning and decided they wanted to make blackface.

    Their faces are modelled after caucasians and no skintone will ever change that.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Quaade for president!

    • Granted, the Cadian line is heavily inspired by WW1 and WW2 Britain…

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        yep, but i don’t think it would change much to have some races represented.

        Lots of different types of people in the grim dark future.

    • TenDM

      I think painting Cadians with different skin tones works. They look close enough to right when viewed at table top distances.

    • palaeomerus

      Cadian faces like most 28mm are lumpy exaggerated nonsense and racial identification is imaginary similar to seeing faces in an american two prong power socket with a ground.

      • quaade

        No, you’re wrong on that, dead wrong. Sculptor are people and unless they make a concious effort, they will sculpt what they know.

        Having taken a base art class in the west, the default here is white. Nonwhites may be used for croquis as it’s more important that people are defined. You rarely have time to draw faces before they change pose, so you end up drawing a body. And bodies are largely similar.

        Also if Cadian heads are so indistinguisable from each how come others can make headswaps for where people can clearly see the race and gender of the heads?

        • palaeomerus

          Look at them and tell me that lumpy is what they know and that there is anything there that they really put there beyond serviceable cartoony mush.

  • Krev_Grazl

    Hear, hear

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Anyone else find it a tad juvenile that the author and plenty of posters, who presumably in the main are a mix of 18+ year old men, are care calling a piece of female chest armour a “boob-plate”?. Male or female, body-formed or not, chest armour is still called a Breast-plate. You know because if covers the breast region of the torso.

    • greenskin

      I guess. It’s not clear who originally started calling it “boob-plate.” But for better or worse, that is the verbal shorthand used online when discussing the sexist/problematic breast-plate in question.

    • BrianDavion

      thats not what they mean when they call it a “Boob plate” they’re refering specificly to a style of armor that has the breasts clear and visable on the armor. This is, BTW an unrealistic approuch to armor, as it’d actually make armor weak, realisticly women would wear the same type of breastplate as a man

      • I_am_Alpharius

        For sure, I get that. I just find is juvenile. Indeed body-formed plate is potentially weaker. However the main reason is that when soldiers are wearing knightly-type armour they would also be wearing several other layers (basic under garment, then a heavily padded tunic, then some chain mail) removed any semblance of the male/female form, so shaped plate was not needed!

    • thereturnofsuppuppers
    • TenDM

      Like the others I’ve always viewed a breastplate as a functional piece of armour. A boobplate on the other hand is a metal pushup bra.

    • palaeomerus

      Cuirass, vest, chest armor

  • Justin Frost

    Firstly, I’m exceedingly happy to see this direction from GW, and love the comments on this thread on the subject.

    All the vectors for women in the 41st millennium are admirable and with model support woulf be amazing for our community and its diversity. Id love AM/MT officers or alternate aspect warriors, etc.

    The thing id like to see gender diversified is space marines. Iconic GW grimdark. I understand that it’s written as to why in our fiction, but it can change, and GW has produced an awesome mechanism for urban in Primaris Marines. Cawl has been tinkering with the genome after all…I think it would be very good for our community to allow for the most powerful warriors in the imperium, and GWs flagship product to allow for women to see themselves as these heroes, not just as “mortals” in that far future. It is fiction after all, and to me this isn’t part of the excitement of the lore no longer being static.

    Just my two bits, not as eloquent as others, but I thought I’d share.

    • dinodoc

      You’ll get plastic Sisters before you get Female Space Marines.

    • memitchell

      You think 8′ tall females with massive muscles and bio-engineered skeletons is going to appeal to women as representations of powerful female warriors? Really?

      • Chris Hilliard

        With some women it will sell more than anything else.

    • Jared Swenson

      Sure, while we’re at it, let’s also completely ignore an iconic piece of fluff that the ecclesiarchy can have no military of men among their ranks, and provide equal representation of men in the adepta sororitas. Because that’s a thing we do now, retcon history and lore for the sake of equal representation pandering.

      • Evan Logan

        I thought there were only male support staff?

        • Jared Swenson

          They have some. But some would count the priests as well, when they are technically not a military organization for the ecclesiarchy. The only military organization for the ecclesiarchy is the adepta sororitas. They were organized because of a loophole in an imperial decree that said the ecclesiarchy could not have a military of men to fight for them. So instead they formed a military of women. There is some staff and custodial workers who are men, but they technically arent a military. Also the priesthood of the imperial creed often take up arms and fight alongside the adepta sororitas, but they aren’t military either, just missionaries lending support.

        • Reven

          The priests can be male or female, though the males have an easier time going through the ranks because “they are closer to the perfection of the God-Emperor, whose perfect embodied form was that of a perfect human male.” But the stuff fighting on the ground could theoretically be male or female. Also the sisters of battle, serving as a military also serve as a kind of internal affairs.

  • Krizzab

    nurgleshit! moar daemonettes, like juan diaz ones.

  • Dennis J. Pechavar

    Giving us a better selection of race heads and female models(other than Eldar) would be nice. My Dark Angels have been a mix of skin tone since day one, however as has been said elsewhere on this thread the facial structure of different races makes more than a few of my marines look “off”. I’m not that good a sculptor that I can fix that myself and I’d prefer to not have to go to a third party to make my GW models look right.

  • happy_inquisitor

    Honestly I always thought the all-male imperial forces were a deliberate nod to the fascist tendencies of the grimdark future. However I agree that this is an issue when it comes to making the hobby welcoming for half the population so if they can find ways to turn that ship around it is more than welcome.

  • Rainthezangoose

    Beautiful <3

  • pokemastercube .

    doubt i would see wheelchair user models tho

    • LankTank

      inquisitor Karamazov

      • pokemastercube .

        i dont count him or an’va as they are noted to be perfectly able to walk, just use those machines because they are lazy

        • dannyrevv

          Dreadnoughts?

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      that would be cool.

  • memitchell

    http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dacec63fe95e9aa8258ef5a67997aa97f0396aee1bf9d40e182fc89ee98cfab9.jpg
    These do a good job of sci-fi dystopia muscular female fighters that retain a female form (or sorts) Their “boobs” don’t overly objectify them. They are one of the elements that define the models as female. And, make the model more attractive. Eliminating female breasts isn’t de-emphasizing sexuality, it is de-emphasizing femininity. Which defeats the purpose. Why sell female figures that don’t look female.”
    Without breasts, this is a dude in a toga. http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4541117585c371a7d2b1e30b85c73ef1dae44c80b9a1e01fa9b80b703326aa85.jpg

  • Hendrik Booraem VI

    LOL you guys are such sell-outs. Whatever. War is the province of the male, always has been, always will be. The fact that we’ve had plenty of low-priority conflicts over the last 30 years and have been able to integrate females into the US military doesn’t mean they’re fit for it.

    I guess they’ll make for good stories, though.

    • Brian Griffith

      Yes, it’s so unrealistic to integrate genders in our game about space werewolves and psychic elves.

    • luke-vdv

      Prepare yourself for people who’ll point out that one time there was some female samurai, or that one female viking body they found as if that changes the realities of war.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      aren’t there female guard in the fiction though?

  • TheSaltyMountainMan

    Yippee skippee. Virtue signaling. I don’t care if they want some more female models, I don’t, but I know it never stops at that.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      surely isn’t this just virtue signalling?

      • Evan Logan

        Everything is virtual signaling……

  • euansmith

    When I first read the headline, I thought it was about GW looking for new IP Lawyers after the Chapterhouse case.

    • palaeomerus

      These Ogiers and Trogothss & ratlings & Aedari & Orruks are our original IP so donut steel! Also we invented chaos. Michael Moorcock? Never heard of him. Those robot skeletons are 100% original!

  • DoctorBored

    Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you for laying this out JayArr. Thank you for putting it to the nay-sayers and trolls. Thank you for saying what needed to be said on this.

    Though, when it comes to Sisters of Battle, I just want nuns with guns models. Like, representation is good, and if they don’t have boob plate armor, that’s fine, but, like, let’s get those plastic Sisters already.

    • Brian Griffith

      Plastic Sisters of Battle would be a decent opportunity to revise and update their look a little.

      • memitchell

        Just use older, smaller Marines models. Power armor, no boobs, helmets, and smaller than Primus Marines (which can no be regular marines). So, completely androgynous models you can call Sisters of Battle. There, you have your plastic Sisters. Your welcome.

        • DoctorBored

          You are hilariously not good at trolling.

          • memitchell

            It’s a gift.

      • DoctorBored

        There’s a thousand designs out there for armor that is feminine without going over the top. Of course, if they stick with boob plate, I really don’t mind. It’s all A+ in my book as long as they finally get their plastics.

  • Lyca Atteneder

    They want all of us feel represented eh?
    BRING BACK SLAANESH!!!

    • palaeomerus

      Yeah it really hasn’t been the same scene since all the bondage gear wearing people with one breast, a mohawk, and a lobster claw stopped playing..

  • GnomesForge

    It would be great to get female guard models, female psykers, Sisters of Battle, Knight pilots, Inquisitors. Just not Adeptus Astartes. The Catholic, monastic feel of 40k with sex segregation lore critical. But yeah, we do need more female models for everything but Marines. Even if there was a break away Sisters of Battle sect that practice genetic augmentation, that would be cool. Just no female Marines.

    There is no boob plate issue, its a dystopian setting. If anything there needs to be more violence, sexism, racism and horror. Its grim dark, not progressive. Its not meant to be a progressive teaching vehicle. Its meant to be a way to kick back with absurd fiction and have some laughs while playing in a horrifying and bizarre world.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Why does a dystopia need boobplates?

      How are boobplates sexist in universe, they would only be sexist from a design point of view.

      • memitchell

        How is creating models that look female sexists? How is it NOT sexists to make them look like boys? What’s the alternative for 28mm soldier models, and average painters? Lipstick? Eyeshadow? Rouge cheeks?

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          Could you answer my question of why a dystopia needs boobplates?

          • memitchell

            The Escher don’t have boob plates. But, they do have boobs (and, I’m stuck with using our BoLS nouns). The real question is why would female models not have female physical attributes?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            you said ‘There is no boob plate issue, its a dystopian setting’

            This implies boobplates exist in the setting, but that there is no issue with them.

            Both Sisters of battle and Eschers exist in the setting and have boobplates.

            so again, why do we need boobplates in a dystopian setting?

            those are boobplates

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b054eccdac8e838ce968b78eb801143fdc520b28729a390367c38c95463bcb57.jpg

          • Reven

            I’m not sure those are supposed to be armor.

          • Xodis

            Some wouldn’t (like IG) because women in uniform look just like men in uniform. Some do, because like Eldar they wear pretty much a body sleeve, and it shows.

  • luke-vdv

    Who gives a toss about diversity. This is the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium. Not let’s hug and celebrate diversity day. The diversity in 40K has happened naturally without being forced and you can see it is indeed quite diverse. There’s no need to stuff diversity in there artificially to fill some modern day bizarre obsession with ensuring every kind of human, sexuality, and gender gets some attention.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Are you afraid of toy representations of women?

      Whats the big deal?

      • PrometheusReturns

        Why are you afraid of men?

        Why are you afraid of the white race?

        What’s the big deal?

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          yes, I’m a black guy in Russia, I am afraid of white men.

    • Evan Logan

      Yes! I agree

  • Nathaniel Wright

    Only worried about the skin-deep representation, ignoring the books and extra-curricular stuff.

    That pretty much is as ‘on the nose’ about the squeaky wheels, isn’t it?

    But hey, whatever. If it means getting better female face sculpts, I’m all for it.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      What would an example of skin deep representation to you in terms of releases so far by GW?

      • Nathaniel Wright

        GW does a fine job with making important characters.

        I’m saying that these things are called ‘not enough’. I’m more concerned about quality of the casts then I am about the whos who. They’re my dudes/gals, my story for their existence has more impact in my 40k/AoS than it ever could in the ‘representation’ sphere.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          Sorry, I’m a bit lost. What things specifically?

          • Nathaniel Wright

            Are you? I think you might know exactly what I’m talking about and playing the fool.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I am sorry English is my second language, and while I think I follow your general point, I do not know what you are talking about specifically in your example?

            When you say ‘ these things are called ‘not enough’

            I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

          • Nathaniel Wright

            As I stated. There are characters in the fictional universe that are given the depth and building that are seen only by those willing to pick up a book.

            To better clarify, it is judging an entire universe based on a shallow, precursory look. Literally skin-deep.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            so there has been no release by GW that has been skin deep representation?

          • Nathaniel Wright

            In my opinion, no. Greyfax, Celestine, etc. have been done in the right way. They’re heroes because that is what they do, not because they’re women.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            then from experience we can say that GW will probably do female minis in a good way, and not just release Ghostbusters 2016 in mini form.

    • Brian Griffith

      How much of the novels does the average 40k player consume?

      Also, if the novels are that important, then the actual armies for sale should reflect them, shouldn’t they?

  • Lyca Atteneder

    To be absolutely honest: I really like the idea.
    I got my hands on Blacktalon, even though I don’t play Stormcasts, just to paint the model. It’s nice to have female minis (that aren’t ‘oversexed’) once in a while. Female Guardsmen would be cool as well… makes me think a little bit of the Colonial Marines in ALIENS.

  • JDD

    I think there’s a good amount of diversity in the Eldar range. Some female guard options would be nice too. That said, Sisters are the answer for Space Marines. No need to rewrite lore just to be all inclusive. Dunkirk and all. Just give us the mythic plastic Sisters!

  • Mathew G. Smith

    It really depends on the author. The FF RPGs, Dan Abnett, and Sandy Mitchell’s work already paint the Imperium as largely egalitarian, with patriarchal and matriarchal societies existing but being seen as annoying wastes of time to deal with.

  • Xodis

    I think its mostly hilarious that anyone thinks ethnicity will still exists by even the 31st millennium. Pretty much everyone should look the same by 10K.

    • Xodis

      As far as the “female space marine argument goes”, be honest. You don’t want REAL female space marines, you want space marines that look female.

      Space Marines shouldn’t even be considered male, they are a thing more than anything. Any female that gets the treatment isn’t going to look like some Sister of Battle, shes going to look just like the Space Marines we already have.

      -Long hair? Pretty dumb for someone that should be wearing a helmet, and will be in close combat anyways. Thats a setup for failure.
      -Breasts? What for?! The process makes them sterile anyways, might as well remove them so the Imperium doesn’t have to have yet another sub-mark of power armor so it fits.

    • Brian Griffith

      Actually, owing to the colonial diaspora and the terrors of Old Night, we actually have tons of new ethnicities. That’s not even counting the colony populations that were purposefully genetically engineered, the ones that mutated in specific ways due to the proximity of warp rifts, and so forth.

      Humanity has more variation now than it did on Terra.

      • Xodis

        Between the government killing anything abnormal because its a “mutant” and the body not needing to evolve due to the advanced science of the civilization its hard to determine what they would have likely done.

  • TenDM

    I don’t think boobplate armour gets in the way of representation any more than Blood Angel’s abs distance them from male players. In the guard I absolutely want women to be represented with a gritty, guard like aesthetic. That new picture is perfect.
    However the Sisters of Battle look perfect too. They have that slick, insane, Gothic, totally impractical look that we expect from Imperial elites.

    The only problem with them is that women who want to be represented need to either play boobplates or play one in ten Eldar models. There needs to be enough variety that the Sisters are only played by people who like heavy metal nuns with guns.
    A good start would be a new plastic Imperial Guard type with optional female components like Eldar Guardians have, then start releasing upgrade sprues for stuff like Cadians, Catachan head and chests, Genestealer Cults, etc. It shouldn’t take much effort to phase that in if they’re really committed to this.

  • GrogDaTyrant

    I don’t really see what the deal is, it’s not like 14/15ths of the game isn’t space marines. Just add a female torso and a head or 3 to the core box sets of the two or three (non-elfdar) armies it would affect. It’s not like the majority of players would ever notice.

    • Evan Logan

      Its more about not changing the theme for ‘progressives’ (tribalists more like) who don’t actually care beyond getting what they want.

      • dinodoc

        The people that want Fem Space Marines are idiots and can safely be ignored but what exactly is wrong with Mixed Regiments for IG and for Emperor’s sake plastic Sisters?

        • Brian Griffith

          Hell, your average IG troop model is so old it’s growing hair in new places. An IG troops revamp is well overdue, and they’re probably giving it some thought.

  • Oh snap. Now I HAVE to have a story about this Dire Avenger. FanFiction or canon, GIMME.

    This was really well worded, and I appreciate all of the sentiments. Brava!

  • Tim Grulke

    My partner has no problem with the female representation in GW atm. If fact she loves the sisters style, and her favorite models are actually the wyches, one that you might consider the most ‘problematic’

  • Evan Logan

    The tay?

  • ReveredChaplainDrake

    *sigh*

    I play freaking Tyranids, the army that not only doesn’t care about your junk (Genestealers notwithstanding), but if you guys can’t get over it and work together, I’m going to kill and eat you all while you squabble about your Human Privilege or whatever.

    And if your guardswomen / fem marine sculpts take time and effort away from plastic Biovores, so help me, I will ally with IG and shell you off all of the tables.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      sexist design leads to terrible ideas like a sexy tyranid, Sarah Kerrigan

  • Andy Meechan

    Thanks for the article and links.

    I enjoyed the tone you wrote this in and the language choices made. Nice one.

  • Edd the cat

    Women have always been in 40k the last thing they need to be doing is messing with a winning formula to pander to people who probably don’t even play the game.

  • axs041

    If this means a nice new reproportioned infantry kit I say great, if it means a female/ethnic upgrade sprue matching the blocky infantry we have now then I say ffs…

  • Byor
  • Dave Satterthwaite

    HOW DARE ANYONE SUGGEST THAT MY SUPERHUMAN EUNUCHS HAVE WOMEN JOIN THEIR RANKS

  • Angry Goy

    R.I.P. Warhammer, finally cucking to the anti-white animus of the (((Global Elite))).

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      do you really think games workshop is involved in a Jewish conspiracy to make more toys that look like women.

  • Tothe

    NOLF references FTW!

  • sonny2dap .

    The lore already does a pretty good job on this front, sisters of silence, remembrancers, the cept’s from Legion etc. the novels have done a pretty solid job, mixed guard regiments though should be commonplace, Cadians supposedly having a birth rate and conscription rate of 1:1. Not particularly interested in fem marines though.

  • Bip Bap

    Follow Marvel’s downward trend. Diversity is awful.

  • gordonshumway

    I normally complain about the BoLS content treadmill but it’s actually good to have one of these threads every once in a while so the wailing manbabies reveal themselves in the comments and I know which users to block for an improved BoLS comment thread experience.

    But in all seriousness more representation is a wonderful thing, and if the sad coalition of alt-right manchildren, neckbeards, grognards, pseudo-intellectuals and others can’t see that it is as much a benefit to them as it is to those gaining increased representation, well, there’s not much that can be done for them anyway.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      you block people on BoLS? Its the low quality of the comment section that makes this site bearable.

  • Leitis

    So we’re getting a female primarch right?

    RIP 40k.

    Imperium is supposed to be an inhospitable grim dark place. So it makes sense that it would be populated by the boogeyman of the modern world – a white male. It’s just not going to be the same with bunch of women.

    A double fantasy I guess.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      plenty of tyrannical women leaders and warriors in history.

      • Leitis

        Queens statistically were more tyrannical and warlike than kings.

        Still not the same.
        There’s plenty of women in 40k already, why they have to pretend they need more?

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          what do you mean pretend? Could you elaborate what you mean.

        • dinodoc

          The things most people are asking for either exist in fluff already (Mixed IG Regiments) or should have been done a decade ago (Plastic Sisters).

    • Brian Griffith

      …you have a weird standard of grimdark.

  • nientecarpe2

    “among it’s”

    Stopped reading right there, author is illiterate.

  • Bradley Macduff

    or or how about we right good stories and stop caring about the genders involved in them. people need to understand that someone being male or female shouldnt define or effect the quality of a story. and sometimes it can even actively hurt a product. what we SHOULD be doing, is encouraging people to write better stories, ones they want to write, and encouraging people to come up and also write with them. and tell stories they want to tell.

    you do this and the gender will never need to be questioned. and anyone who does question it is a daft child scratching at a wall because they want attention.

  • Free Market Autism

    This is going to be a disaster!

  • Countdiscount

    I’ll just say that yes, you can paint models any color you want, but it matter that GW overwhelmingly doesn’t paint them with diverse skin colors.

    I’d guess that probably 50% of the world population is brown but somehow they don’t make it to the 41st millennium according to GW.

  • PrometheusReturns

    “It’s 2017”

    Thanks for autistically reminding us it’s the current year.

    • palaeomerus

      40K is a sci-fi metal-album cover grotesque full of stolen movie tropes, but it must be an inclusive grotesque that doesn’t alienate people who’d probably never play it. It must be modernized and corrected or it will go the way of D&D after all the poor scared Christian mom’s found about it.

  • ieyke

    True enough. I mean to say they were always DESCRIBED as coal black, as if they were permanently stained by the soot of their forges on a genetic level.

    I guess you can write off the various ways they were painted as just being youngish Marines who hadn’t yet fully taken on the features of their Primarch. *shrug*
    I imagine the transition from human skin tones to coal black would HAVE TO involve shades of brown. …Unless they turn blue/purple, like a bruise, on the way to coal black. That would be weird.

  • Crablezworth

    Even khorne is more diverse now http://i.redd.it/i67fbx24uvqz.png

  • palaeomerus

    The lore wasn’t designed. It’s a bunch of half digested 70s & 80s pop & sci-fi & comics & album cover art & movie & TV culture tropes mixed in a trash can with a few bits from 90s movies and wacky-bad latin poured over them.

  • UnpluggedBeta

    Jesus Christ, “literally the current year,” spotted.

  • MullenIX

    Demanding for the exclusion of specific aspects of design, how diverse of you.

    Reminds me of religious zealots, who want to ban things for depicting content they did not like and disagreed with.

    I guess there’s always someone thinking that they know whats best for everyone.