Goatboy’s 40K Meta Analysis – Iron Halo 2017 Edition

Goatboy here, back from the Iron Halo tournament. Here are some of the things I saw kicking butt and and crushing opponents.

I got back from the Iron Halo on Sunday night.  I had a lot of fun, learned some new things, and even ended up in 5th place in the end.  They had 100 people signed up for the event and most made it there.  I think there were 2 places left which might have gotten filled up.  Overall it was a good event and continue to show some of the 8th issues we see in the current crop of heavily competitive events.  Here are some of the things I saw, utilized, and crush opponents with.

Welcome to the New Meta

Hordes, Hordes Everywhere. First of all – the games were heavily dominated by Hordes mixed with either Smite Spam or heavy damage dealing monsters.  Whether its was blobs of cultists shackled to an Iron Warriors “leader”, Conscripts controlled running man style, or just tons of tiny fire daemons the top tables were crushed by bodies.  I think a lot of 8th is defined by having good board control with ways to mitigate opponents damage.  I don’t see this changing at any point as the AM book is coming out and it continues this trend of boots on the ground mixed with hyper efficient damage dealing.  Most of the Chaos armies were either Brim based on Cultists based and usually had Magnus or some other kind of super heavy.  I played a Brim based on with a Lord of Skulls in place of Magnus and more reliance on Daemon Princes versus Sorcerers and counter assaulting Khorne Berserkers.

All Hail the Malefic Lord. I think the most seen model on the table top is one that doesn’t have an official one.  There were so many Malefic Lords on the tables.  Heck I played 3 and killed a crap ton during most of my Chaos match ups.  A 30 points smite bomb is just way to good to pass up – especially if you want to get ahold of Magnus and an extra Command point.  Overall I didn’t see a ton of Command point usage beyond the normal – Tide of Traitors and some reroll usage.  I used Daemonforge every game as it let my Lord of Skulls normally kill whatever it shot at – or at least wound the heck out of it when it came to double moving, getting close, and murdering Magnus.  Hopefully the rumored changes coming with Chapter approved will help curtail this constant barrage of counts as models, weird conversions, and just really craptastic army crutch building that is the Malefic lord.

Elites are Having Trouble. It seemed Elite armies just couldn’t hang with the amount of smites, bodies, and big monsters coming for their smaller units.  I know Elite armies are easier to play but it really looks like for any large scale event you should keep them at home.  The damage output, mortal wound output, and footprint of most competitive armies just wrecks your chances to get in and cause any type of decent damage.  I really want good elite army to come out as it would help get some people involved as it is usually cheaper, easier to handle, and helps you figure out the game.  Will see if there are some good Death Guard smaller scale armies that are not just waves of Poxwalkers backed by gross task masters.

buy LOTS of these…

Event Missions & Terrain

Overall the Renegade mission format I preferred over the ITC current crop of missions.  I know they are working on changes to the ITC ones and so while my annoyance has merit I don’t expect it to stay.  The gang over at Frontline understands that people want more options and abilities to play and win the game.  I have only been exposed to the Nova missions once and liked it for the most part.  I feel with more chances to play this and everyone else looking at working together will make for a better set of events and missions.  Who knows Chapter Approved might have some really swell missions in it too.

The terrain was pretty good with most tables having decent line of site blocking terrain.  I helped with a ton of tables there and I think the push for simple “shipping” crates for most tables helps give events the ability to have decent terrain on the cheap.  I don’t know if we need 4 tall stacks of them – but at least the ability to cover a unit from the threat of massed reroll shots and damage an army an throw out is a good thing.  Plus it creates more options to move, get involved in the battlefield, and hopefully makes for an interesting game.

I still have high hopes that 8th will settle down a bit and let everyone have a chance to win on the table top.  There will always be better choices out there as is the nature of any massively large game with a plethora of playing options.  It would be one thing if we only had 2 armies – but with as many as Warhammer has access to will always have the issue of a few armies being better then some of the other ones.

Ready to party!

40K Lessons Learned

  • Tide of Traitors isn’t just an Alpha Legion Stratagem.  I originally thought it was just for them and when an opponent pointed it out to me – well Iron Warriors are really a good Legion – beyond having a kinda crappy legion trait.
  • Magnus doesn’t like to get shot by the Lord of Skulls when it double moves into your opponents army.
  • Knights and things like the Lord of Skulls get to keep shooting when engaged by infantry.  This means they can always Overwatch.  That big Flamer is just mean 🙂
  • Malefic lords are just not that fun to play with and against.
  • Khorne Berserkers are the only Chaos Space Marine you see on the table top that isn’t a Character.
  • Giant Chaos Spawns are not nearly as good as I thought them to be.  Or else I just did a great job murdering them all the time.
  • Obliterators can be so hit or miss when it comes to trying to kill a big monster.
  • Renegade Chapter was interesting but I didn’t really utilize it that much.
  • There is nothing more frustrating them just doing one Mortal Wound on all your smites and watching a Storm Raven shoot you the bird as it survives with 6 hull points left.
  • Daemonforge is an awesome Stratagem if you play something as dumb as the Lord of Skulls.
  • Man the Relic mission is just not good. It should have stayed like it was in 7th with it being an Objective that is just movable.

~What are you seeing rising to the top of 40K in your neck of the woods?

  • YetAnotherFacelessMan

    Online 40k fans in 2011: “I don’t like how the game is dominated by Razorback spam.”
    Online 40k fans in 2016: “I don’t like how the game is dominated by knights and wraithknights.”
    Online 40k fans in 2018: “I don’t like how the game is dominated by squigs with jetpacks.”

    Buy what you want, paint what you buy, play what you paint. Don’t over-complicate it; the meta will just change in a few months.

    • vlad78

      But it will stay dumb.

    • Now I want Squigs with jetpacks

    • Sure

      It’s the tournaments – build the list to win..who cares if it’s a carbon copy of half the other lists and isn’t all that fun to play with or against. To stay competitive it’s a time/money sink. Not my cup of tea. However, enough folks drink that tea to support a scene. Goatboy’s articles are about that scene. Get over it.

    • ZeeLobby

      It would just be nice to not have “dominated by X”.

      • marxlives

        Biggest problem I have had with GW’s rule design when compared to other systems out there. Yes there is a bell curve of power for every system out there but what most other systems do is have a solid rule set and then use faqs to mitigate or depress the bell curve as much as possible.

        This is why GW games do not have renown in the market as being tournament games. Yes, you can create a tournament around the rules but the rules themselves lend the game to list building an army that plays itself rather than any sort of strategy. This is why some 40k players play Warmahordes and/or Infinity when they want to play a tournament game and keep their 40k army for casual play.

        GW not having a tournament wothy system s not a big issue, this isn’t new gospel here. We all have know GW systems were not great for tournaments for awhile now. As long as the game is fun to play, that is what counts. And from what I hear 8th is fun if you are playing casual.

        For tournament play, having to build your list one way to win is a big problem. The casual attitude this article makes in something that any other design company would treat as a major flaw shows how deep the problem goes. It is not just the game itself, its community expection. Players are used to the game presenting one way to win as normal.

        Warpath and Deadzone have the same isse though I love to play them because they allow me and my 8 year old son to play together. It’s simple system and the models are cheap. And while I like the casual play at the end of the day I don’t take Deadzone tournaments very seriously, because if you want to win you know how you need to build your force to do it.

        Don’t know if this is a Nottingham versus American game design issue (target number versus competitive roll offs) that makes one more tournament worthy then the next. Infinity uses a hybrid of both systems and I consider as tournament worthy or more so than Warmachine.

        Has anyone tried Gates of Antares in a tournament environment to see if it presents a more solid rule foundation of the Nottingham design style than 40k?

        I remember when people used to complain that Warmachine was dumb because it was a combo system. Nowadays 40k is a combo driven system but it is worse in that for any given force there is one way to win. There was a guy on these forums who guessed and gave good reasons for why the new meta for 8th was going to be and stay hordes back in May. Everyone thought he was crazy and I wish I remembered his handle. But hordes as a way to win for every faction is too profitable for GW to change that up. I know everyone is banking on Chapter Approved but if anything it will double down on it.

    • LankTank

      Online 40k fans in 2017: I don’t like how there are NO Squigs with Jetpacks yet!

  • Antoine Henry

    The 8th edition already shows the weakness of GW at writing rules. Remember that Battle died due to the entry fees and the “large” amount of units you needed (and other things too like “hard rules”).

    The rules and design are starting to really be bad and they are opening pandora’s box by allowing using “Stratagems” from other codexes. This game is already suffering the same issue 7th had about rules. Before 40K was about Elite armies, the boards are not meant for 100+ Miniatures. Seeing a fully deployed horde does not seems right (like a Titan on a 24″ title is stupid too). The game is enjoyable for now. We’ll see in a few years what happens but I am already concerned about the rule fest and book fest.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      The ability to use stratagem across different armies, in various detachments, is not that big of a deal. The vast majority of stratagem are restricted to very specific keywords that will prohibit 99% of shinanginings.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah. I just don’t think they know now not to do this. They only seem to be getting exponentially worse as well, adding more and more on top, without leaving stuff that works alone. I mean previous to 7th, core mechanics may have been altered, but army selection was the CAD, and army variety was wargear. Now they’ve been adding tons of strategems, warlord traits, formations, etc. on top of that, and then can’t understand when people think their game is bloated…

      • Muninwing

        this was supposed to be the “simplify and cut bloat” edition.

        of course, anyone paying attention to the shenanigans of warscroll bloat knew what was coming…

        • Munn

          That it’s still better than 7th? And has a lot of ground to cover to get as bad as seventh was BEFORE Codex:Necrons?

          • ZeeLobby

            I’d disagree. I think it’s almost as bad as 7th was. Sure we lost 100s of formations, but we gained 100s of special rules for every unit. There’s still allies, and still non-restrictive list building rules, and now we’ve added a CP system, along with stratagems, etc. No one can honestly look at this and claim it’s a simpler game… I mean just look at the complexity of modifiers on rolls. Explain that to anyone and they’re like, wait, what?

            What they did do was clarify some obtuse rules from 7th. And removed some core mechanics like vehicles and templates (which imo gave the game more flavor).

          • Muninwing

            it’s an illusion of simpler because of how data is accessed. in reality, it is just as complicated.

            what they needed to do was to streamline and simplify from 7th, and what we got instead was a slightly different game that is just bloated differently.

          • ZeeLobby

            Which is a shame. There was there chance. I imagine we’ll have to go through 3 editions of this version before they move anywhere else.

          • Matthew Pomeroy

            your scaring me, I know its Halloween season, but I am terrified of this edition lingering like candy corn for years to come.

          • Muninwing

            it’s actually yet another reason to be annoyed with GW for the rushed and sloppy AoS release.

            this system is still… new, rough, unsolidified. applying it to a new game was in theory a good idea, but perhaps would have been better in a little while when it was a bit more… stable.

            they should have done with 40k what the End Times should have been — a “new edition” (that was really just tweaks to the last one, a 7.5) that ran for a year (or two, possibly) based on events and community interaction. they could have reined in freebie formations by adding a point-cost to every formation or detachment, and changing those that gave free stuff to have a different benefit, and the game would have been so much smoother.

            then, when 8th came out, it would use a more tested and figured-out system.

            i honestly think that the regime changes put someone new in charge of the design team, who had their own pet game on the back burner for years, and who decided to pitch their idea as the new 40k/WHF. it’s just a different game. the mechanics that are similar could have been added after, or been derivative of their inspiration. with another year of development and refinement the first time, we would not be able to see the skeleton underneath.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Agreed. Again this falls into my constant annoyance of GW being a publicly traded company. They don’t want an uptick in sales 3 years from now, they need it before this quarter ends. If that means over promising, and under delivering, so be it. Maybe a constantly praised but chaotic release approach will keep people buying without thinking?

          • LankTank

            The game IS simpler. Things such as Stratagems and Faction Keywords allowing intricate and varied combinations are not mandatory. If you forget a specific stratagem you are not messing up the basic rules, you are just missing a strategic opportunity to get a battle advantage. That is literally the point of responsive strategy.

          • Muninwing

            … so the game is simpler if you play with fewer rules?

            the same could be said about every game.

          • Matthew Pomeroy

            I found it a much worse game than 7th right off the starting line.

  • 40KstillRulesTheTT

    8th is really not an “unrestricted” tournament edition, it didn’t feel like one form the start (allowing to spam anything), and it feels even less for every 3 codices that come out.

    • ZeeLobby

      your comment seems to contradict itself. A system in which you can spam everything (like stormraven spam) sounds nonrestrictive to me.

      • 40KstillRulesTheTT

        Sorry I meant that IMO 8th is not good for unrestricted tournaments, namely because spam is made readily available by the core rules (those sad detachments… Frankly I nearly miss the formations we had in 7th) of said 8th Edition. Restrictions, and sévère ones at that, which could be set by TOs are IMO really needed.
        For example, I don’t understand how one could possibly want to drive for hours (and pay a hotel) to play 5 games in a row, during two days, against mostly armies with such huge model count that you cannot manœuvre around them at all, which all sem alike (blobb, blobs and blobs…).

        With the right restrictions on certain units, 8th had a fine balance (until Codex Astra Militarum apparently that is)

        • LankTank

          It would be great if Tournaments put a restriction on the detachments. Maybe only 2. This would cap a too heavy repeat on spam. Players could also still go crazy on the Imperium pick and choose, but then they would lose the stratagems and other traits if they went across to many codex’

  • Crablezworth

    8th ed, it’s bad for ya

    • 40KstillRulesTheTT

      No I love it ! I just don’t want to attend tourneys at the moment, with the current state of balance, but I love playing with my groups (who do not care to build the next unstoppable list. We care for efficient yet reasonable lists, with all the space in between of course it may go wrong sometimes hah hah)

      • ZeeLobby

        Agreed, within a group it’s totally manageable. Sadly it’s killed local PUGs at the store though for the most part :/.

        • Drpx

          They’re still happening at mine, but mostly because it’s largely new players over there. Anyone who’s making a serious list or is tooling to the meta is massing as much shooting as they can around a Primarch/Yncarne and praying for the 1st turn.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I wish there were more new players here. The majority are those who left the game in the previous several editions, and they’ve clearly come back ready to fight, haha.

          • Muninwing

            that’s… really depressing.

            it took only months to break this edition in a pretty easily-avoidable way.

  • Jared Swenson

    Having played since 4th, 8th edition is by far my favorite so far in rules. But balance wise it still needs a lot of work. But I do really like how it’s constantly shifting. I want a meta that’s always in flux one way or another, not a long stagnant one that seemed to be more of the case previously.

    • 40KstillRulesTheTT

      +1 !

    • LankTank

      I agree, 8th is AWESOME. Literally stopped playing 7th which was the first time I stopped playing in 19 yrs. I mean we definitely need all the codex’ to even the playing field, but currently the ones who have them are great. And while it is definitely more supportive of hordes, things like marines are actually fun to play against as they have some tricks with falling back, recharging or shooting etc. Before players would just have their tac marines slapped and had to rely on 1 or 2 newly released units to win all games (Grav Centurions for example)

  • zeno666

    Can anyone recommend some good (non GW) containers?
    Gamemats.eu has some great ones bit they are not available anymore.

    • ZeeLobby

      I’ve 3D printed a ton of them, which of course isn’t the easiest solution for most. I love a lot of Warsenal stuff for Infinity, which you could modify to be 40K. Some of it isn’t all that cheap, but probably comparable.

    • Severius_Tolluck

      IF you can find AT3 ones on ebay, those work wonders. Used to be cheap as chips.

      • zeno666

        Yeah, I did actually manage to buy one of those when Rackham fell apart.
        Made a mold for it as well 😉
        But they don’t look that 40k to me.

        • Matthew Pomeroy

          have you checked these out for your needs?

          http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones/latest/80036

          • zeno666

            Those look good. Still not very 40k though.

          • Matthew Pomeroy

            yeah, they are just kinda general purpose, but bones is starting to make some interesting terrain, if you do AoS then they have some useful kits coming.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    “Knights and things like the Lord of Skulls get to keep shooting when engaged by infantry. This means they can always Overwatch. That big Flamer is just mean”

    Errrm I am not sure exactly correct…Knights certainly can’t. They can fall back and shoot etc… but still need to be more that 1″ are to shoot. Yet, they still follow the rules for overwatch. Therefore if they are ready in combat, they can’t:

    “…A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1″ of it.”

    Of course if the Knight has fallen back and is more that 1″ away of the enemy and is charged, then it may Overwatch.

    As for the Lord of Skulls it can certainly shoot at target whilst within 1″ of an enemy; as long as that enemy only consist of ‘Infantry’. It can target the enemy within 1″ or the target it enemy is not within 1″ of another friendly unit; and of course therefore overwatch, but the ” not within 1″ of another friendly unit” part of the rule is going to happen that opportunities to do that. So the LoS can’t always fire overwatch.

    • Frostasche

      Just a minor detail, a unit in 1″ of an enemy unit cannot declare a charge, look at core rules charge phase. So saying you can not fire overwatch against an enemy unit within 1″ of a friendly unit, is rather pointless, as you can only shoot overwatch against enemies that charge you.

      The rule is not limiting overwatch, it just prohibits titans from shooting into other combats.

  • Defenestratus

    It seems that the evergreen complaint of the “competitive” crowd is that there is never enough terrain.

    Do something about it! You’ve only been griping about it for 2 decades at least.

    Sheesh.

    • ZeeLobby

      It used to be less of an issue when terrain actually blocked line of sight. I wouldn’t mind some forest abstraction in the rules for example…

      • zeno666

        Locally we’ve just said that area terrain such as forests and ruins block LoS, but you can still see models in the forest/ruin, not behind them.

        • ZeeLobby

          I mean I feel like you almost have to. For all the bloat 8th already has going for it, the terrain rules are still pretty weak.

          • The terrain rules are putrid garbage.

          • Drpx

            They’re not garbage. They’re just not there.

          • Them not being there is to me garbage.

        • This is also what I do in my campaigns.

      • Drpx

        TLOS needs to go the way of templates.

        • ZeeLobby

          I’m all for it. I mean we already take a ton of abstraction for granted. Who knew a change for “simplicity’s” sake would head in the opposite direction…

    • Populating tables at tournaments costs time and money.

      • Matthew Pomeroy

        hit that one on the head.

  • gordonshumway

    It feels pretty frustrating when people are constantly complaining about the only decent unit in your army list. I fully agree that Malefic Lords should get a points increase and I think in the 50-60 or so range should do it…I mean they are objectively better than Warlocks who cost 37…but not much as they don’t have access to any useful force multiplying powers, only two damage ones and two garbage ones. But what I definitely don’t get all this crying about conversions and such.

    For me the modeling aspect of 40k is all about creativity, and when there is a character unit out there with an official model I like to spice it up a bit, make it stand out from all the other monopose models on the table. Now if it doesn’t have an official model, well then that means it’s time to get really creative and have fun with the modeling process… I understand not being happy about someone bringing 5 counts as Malefic Lords that are just some random model from their collection (or a Lego man or whatever), but if someone has put any effort at all into converting, even if it isn’t what you would consider “good,” well I think you should give them a little respect for their efforts.

    • Mira Bella

      How many of them do you play? 😉

      • gordonshumway

        Two, to complete my Battalion. Since the other HQ is not even worth running to get the completely inconsequential special rules he offers.

        (The Tzeentch one MIGHT be an exception, but my guys are painted/dedicated Nurgle so I can’t justify that…)

    • Drpx

      Two Codexes and that’s your only viable unit, seriously? Worse than the Helldrake apologists back in 6th.

      • LankTank

        Right? Rapiers, Leviathans, Storm Eagles, Helldrakes, Mortarion, Magnus, Oblits, Havocs, PLague Marines, Poxwalkers, 25pt bikers, Spawn, GIant Spawn, Bloat Drones, Nurglings, Daemon Princes and Berserkers for a start are no longer viable?

  • V0iddrgn

    I remember when you were considered a fluffy player if you ran a horde army. Now you’re a power gamer. There’s nothing wrong with that playstyle just like there wasn’t anything wrong with the guys bringing Wraith Knights and Scatbikes last edition either.

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean the only thing wrong with it was that their points cost wasn’t representative of their power on the table. Holds true for both hordes and wraith knights/scatbikes.

    • Drpx

      Running a horde army doesn’t make you a power gamer. Running an undercosted horde army with 5+ psykers spamming the same spell over and over makes you a power gamer.

      And there’s nothing wrong with that.

      • LankTank

        Bang on! It’s not the horde its the repeat nonsense that is giving it grief.
        But in all honesty I have taken on Thousand Sons and Tzentch armies a few times and Smite does not scare me at all. 2 wounds per phase, 5 psykers doing 10 wounds? Not game breaking unless you are putting your linchpin most valuable unit in front unsupported. But then again I play Nurgle, so maybe Disgustingly Resilient is just getting me through XD

  • Severius_Tolluck

    So.. Funny that, an “army” can out perform, surround, and eventually destroy squads that are smaller in number? Why that is crazy talk!

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean it just depends if they both paid the same points. If you go into a battle expecting it to be even-sided, but the other side surrounds and kills you every time, then the points are probably wrong.

      • Severius_Tolluck

        Let’s be honest there. That never ever in any case ever works perfectly in any system, ever! 40k is probably the worst offender, but I have never met a game outside of chess that is in theory on level playing field. You then on top of that have player aptitude, strategy, stance, and a hundred other variables that come into play. But at the end of the day, as in real life. If you are outnumbered so heavily.. you may slaughter thousands, but they will get you in the end unless you some how break their spirit, and well these be plastic toys my boy!

        • ZeeLobby

          Ah. The old “these are just toys” adage. We wouldn’t be here sitting and discussing the game every day if it was just some fleeting toy we could care less about. Clearly a portion of the community would like better balance in the game.

          Again, no one is asking for perfection. I REALLY wish people would stop saying that as a defense, as it’s literally something no one has EVER asked for. The game will never be perfectly balanced, but it is based off the premise that spending points should equate to power on the table. The whole concept of the game is based around a semi-balanced, nail-biting conflict where a general’s decisions decide the outcome. It would only benefit them to make that true!

          A horde should never always beat an army of elites, and vice versa. That’s bad game design. All factions should have tools that are effective, and can deal with other factions’ tools. Spamming one tool should never be a game winner, that is also bad game design.

          I don’t think we’re asking for a miracle here, just that they’d care a bit more. It’s honestly driving people away from the game, and was a major issue of 6th and 7th. I’m really hoping they realize that and don’t make the same mistake again. Like you said, there are other alternatives that do this better, so why not expect/demand it of them?

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Because no matter how any one cries they wont get it, and stop caring. If you wish it, do it yourself. That is what I do, and I care not for the meta, or the woes of lamentation from people about toys. I come here for the comedy skits that play out in articles and to see new stuff. But that is me.

          • ZeeLobby

            Sigh. I mean clearly you care enough to comment and discuss, but whatever. Apparently that is not caring in this case.

            And a perfect sheeple response. “Just take whatever they give you and fix it yourself. No need to desire more!” I mean I have products I love that could be improved, and I have products I used to love that I wish were better (40K). If I’m paying the money, I like to see the product improve. That’s not like some crazy cult. That’s called being a smart consumer. Desiring more and better options. Even if it is a toy.

            But obviously we just see the game as 2 different things, and that’s OK. You enjoy a game you have to personally fix. I’d rather have them use the money I spent on it to make it better. Just two different views.

          • LankTank

            The quality has improved. Look at the model quality. Look at the technical paints. And the game has got better for alot of people

          • ZeeLobby

            The model detail has improved. I’d argue the aesthetic is more fantasy than sci Fi. Especially looking at the Death Guard. That said, how models look is always a subjective thing, same with paint brand likes. I’d argue many top level painters don’t limit themselves to any one brand as well.

            Whether the actual game is fun is subjective, but it’s balance levels compared to others is definitely not. Simply looking at competitive results across systems will show you that.

            So yes, as a painting building hobby product, GW might be offering the best depending on your likes/dislikes. As a game it’s pretty average to below average. I simply want to see that aspect made better

          • Matthew Pomeroy

            gotten better for some, gotten worse for others, rules wise. Model wise thats also entirely subjective, to me they are a major step back.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Its a hobby, and hobbies require work. That is just how I see it. Mainly I collect and paint as it is and hardly play the game, but I am aware of its faults. However I can list off thousands of games I have tested, tried, played, loved. Every last one was majorly flawed in some way when you take away bias. Some you can realistically just not expect support for. Some try but due to too many variables will never get it right, and for those that list other examples, I could probably show where those systems have deep flaws. The only credit I give GW at this point is they have learned they need to listen and speed up on their responses. But it is not a sheeple response for me to say.. your hobby, your rules.
            As in Pirates of the Carribean.. “The rules are more what we like to call guidelines.” In fact the spirit of the game is as such to me, as that was even written in the core rule book all those moons ago. In the end I am playing with dolls, and I can accept that. I am using my imagination and creativity to get what I want out of the hobby, and I understand you desire more. So power to you. However there is a point you just have to gain a level of acceptance. Not saying become a Randy Randalman, I am just saying there are probably much bigger fish to fry then us arguing over imaginary dolls.
            At least you and I have butted heads on numerous occasions and usually can always have a civil discussion, and would like to continue to do so. So Carry on, and here is to having fun, with plastic toys!

    • Drpx

      Funny that firing high explosive shells into dense crowds of light infantry only yields 1-3 casualties on average.

  • Munn

    The overwatch thing is technically debatable. The overwatch rules say can’t fire if within 1 but also ‘normal shooting attack’ so…

  • Oh, Thomas, I love you brother, but man, you say something like this:

    “Hopefully the rumored changes coming with Chapter approved will help curtail this constant barrage of counts as models, weird conversions, and just really craptastic army crutch building that is the Malefic lord.”

    …and then you forget to include this line:

    “But until it does, I’ll be fielding 14.”

    Be part of the problem, or part of the solution. You can’t be both LOL.

    • Drpx

      But you can find a comfy spot to watch.

    • Andrea Andy Martini

      Sorry people but… From WTF jump up this Malefic Lord? In which Codex?

  • Fraser1191

    im sorry but how can knights fire overwatch while engaged?

    • I_am_Alpharius

      They can’t. See my post above; there is also a limited opportunity as to when the Lord of Skull could, due to the restrictions on what units it can target whilst within 1″ of the enemy.