Goatboy’s 40K Meta – SoCal 2017 Unbeatable List

Today we look at the winning 40K list of this weekend’s 2017 So-Cal Slaughter. Here’s the meta’s latest king of the hill!

Brandon Grant is on a tear winning the Socal event hosted/run/etc by the crew at Frontline Gaming.  The finals had a Chaos super friends list that was unfortunately over points and thus DQ’d on the final table.  A bit more about that at the end of this but let’s look at the winning list.  It is a newly upgraded and (pre Commissar nerfed”) AM/IG list piloted by a very strong player Brandon Grant.  It is the tried and true AM list with tons of bodies, a boatload of Smites, some of its own Smite control with Assassins, and some Soup Shenanigans.  It isn’t an easy list to play but it sure works pretty well.

Brandon’s Winning List

Here is the list and a quick few points

Battalion – Militarum Tempestus Scions
HQ: Tempestor Prime, Command Rod – Warlord
HQ: Primaris Psykers
HQ: Primaris Psykers
Elite: Scion Command Squad, 4 Melta Guns
Elite: Astropath
Elite: Astropath
Elite: Astropath
Troops: Scions X 5, Plasma Guns X 2, Hot-shot Lasguns X 2, Plasma Pistol/Chainsword, Frag and Krak Grenades
Troops: Scions X 5, Hot-shot Lasguns X 2, Hot-shot Volley Guns X 2, Plasma Pistol/Chainsword, Frag and Krak Grenades
Troops: Scions X 5, Hot-shot Lasguns X 2, Hot-shot Volley Guns X 2, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword, Frag and Krak Grenades
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot-Shot Volley Guns X 2, Storm Bolter
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot-Shot Volley Guns X 2, Storm Bolter
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot-Shot Volley Guns X 2, Storm Bolter
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot-Shot Volley Guns X 2, Storm Bolter
Dedicated Transport: Taurox Prime, Hot-Shot Volley Guns X 2, Storm Bolter

Battalion – Imperium
HQ: Primaris Pskyer
HQ: Primaris Pskyer
HQ: The Saint
FA: Seraphim X 5, 4 Inferno Pistols, 6 Bolt Pistols
Elite: Commissar
Elite: Culexis Assassin
Elite: Culexis Assassin
Troops: Conscripts X 30
Troops: Conscripts X 30
Troops: Conscripts X 30
Heavy: Elysiun Heavy Weapon Team, Mortars X 3
Heavy: Elysiun Heavy Weapon Team, Mortars X 3

Supreme Command
HQ: Primaris Pskyer
HQ: Primaris Pskyer
HQ: Primaris Pskyer
HQ: Primaris Pskyer
HQ: Primaris Pskyer

Tactics & List Thoughts

Its pretty simple to figure out.  It has bodies, guns to shoot stuff, and a ton of Smites.  Its the same sort of boring thing we will see – but now with Commissars nerfed some of the bubble wrap is going to be hurt by massed fire.  Reroll morale isn’t as exciting so even with 10+ wounds done to a unit it can be very rough to keep guys around.  But this army has the guns, the spells, and the damage potential to beat up just about everyone.  Plus it can deep strike all around, get objectives, and be a bear to dig in, remove and get your points rolling.  It also has the Saint which is a cruise missile when used properly.  But man – don’t you want to see Smite changed soon – cuz 9 Primaris Psykers just feels unexciting.

As I said earlier the other player in the finals was DQ’d due to a list that was over points.  It is a rough thing to see this happen in multiple events and really shows that we need a true official Army builder from GW.  We also need to have events double check lists, especially the winners from the first day.  I know its a pain but maybe we need to have people submit lists a few days before the event – that way the peanut gallery can get to looking, get to reviewing, and maybe prevent players from losing time, money, and not be labeled a cheater because of a mistake.  I don’t know the guy personally.  I have no opinion beyond: the entire situation sucks.

~What do you think of the winning list and what it means for 8th right now?

 

  • Lebowski1111111111

    i cant believe lists still are not being checked after all the recent issues. How hard is it to force lists to be submitted 2 weeks early, and send them to the people in hte tournament to check. This is on organizers now.

    • laziness and an over reliance on software like battlescribe to check errors. How many times over the years have i heard “but army builder lets me…”

      • ZeeLobby

        All the more reason for GW to make and update an army building app. C’mon GW!

      • Koonitz

        “But army builder lets me…”

        One simple rule I live by when dealing with people, regardless of the situation is “It is not my responsibility to prove you wrong. It is your responsibility to prove yourself right.” If you do not have the official rules for something, you cannot do it.

        If I call into question something you are trying to do, or some item or rule you are trying to pull, and I ask “can I see it?” You had better not pull battlescribe out on me. It is an unofficial third party app that is consistently wrong. Without the codex or appropriate rulebook, you don’t get to use it. Argue the point, and the game is over.

        If in a tournament, the judge is called.

        Battlescribe is terrible. People need to learn to build lists without it. Get some pen and paper and learn a bit of math.

        • Fergie0044

          Or even just a simple spreadsheet if maths is hard for you. I did a 1000pt Ad mech list just the other day. took like 10mins from scratch.

        • ZeeLobby

          Which sounds great, until you realize how often the majority of people get basic math wrong…

          • Charles Keeling

            If you cannot do basic math then the next purchase for your army is a calculator and some common sense.

          • ZeeLobby

            You’ve never seen people struggle with a calculator?

            In reality, these apps should help people write lists. Short of some narcissistic man-pride at being able to do math, there is nothing inherently wrong with an app to assist in writing lists fast and efficiently. Even better if it allows wound and score tracking.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            At this point to be fair, you are stating that people should have a crutch to play this game. That just feels absurd. If GW makes a app to speed things up that is fine, but in the end the player should be double checking it, and organizers you submit should at the very least review it.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I never said that they shouldn’t be double checking, or that organizers shouldn’t review. I mean as stated above, we all have calculator apps, and yes, given time, all of us can write out a spreadsheet and come up with the right math, but there’s no reason we should restrict ourselves to these things just because some additional technology has proven to be buggy. I mean where would that leave us in life if progress was abandoned at the first sign of an error.

            I don’t know. I’ve written pen and paper lists for years, I’ve also used Battlescribe and Army Builder. When I need to write a fast list, and get it on the table that night with limited time, those tools are great. Heck, if they’re accurate, they’re great even when taking my time. I mean they’re just performing basic math, and while yes, people should be able to do this, I fail to see how mathematical proficiency should be a barrier for the game, especially a game based on a ton of luck.

            Clearly these people are good at the game, and accidentally relied on poor apps to write their lists. Clearly they could do the math if they wanted to. I would prefer to just have an app that works, and can be relied upon, and is official (with rules updates). I don’t see why that’s some crazy thing to ask for…

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Eh.. I guess I am a dinosaur. We were punished for having calculators in school. As for making a list I mean that too many people do not double check what an app does for them. There should always be a double check, as people mess up in official apps as well. I am a software engineer, so first hand here. As I know you have seen that from all sorts. GW had a bad taste in their mouths after the Army Builder they had that was so limited in 3E. I imagine they may be more into it now, but either way, at the end it comes down to the user to understand how to build a list, and how to do basic math to double check the system. As the systems and we as humans are not perfect.

          • ZeeLobby

            Which is funny because I used to use Army builder to doublechecky possible human errors in list building. Software developer here too. Actually built some apps to track activations in competitive play in other systems. Super useful. I mean both pen and paper work great. And both are prone to error. I would like to think GW could get list building right in an official app, but who knows. I don’t really consider army builder or battlescribe user interfaces to be all that friendly. Dragging and dropping wargear on visual representations of actual units would be pretty nice.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Yeah that would be nice, all for that. Guess it is up to us to do it no?

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. I wish. Sadly I think there will just be errors like this. I mean really those best in position to accomplish this would be GW. Just think how great it would be if when a new unit was released, your app had the most recent rules and configurations ready to go. And when it’s FAQed a week later, the app is already downloading the update to it. I mean GW has the resources to do this, and many would pay for the opportunity to have up to date rules all in one place with no need for printing FAQs. They could really revolutionize gaming assistive applications to the point where they’re not looked down upon.

            Cause in the end, if I can write one list, or drag and drop 2, I’ll drag and drop 2, haha. List building is fun, and should be easy. I’d personally love to write an app to do this, but not with the hassle that is GW’s stranglehold on the rules/stats and protection of model images, etc.

          • NNextremNN

            There was a nice online listbuilder which was shut down because he used pictures from the official GW shop and tried to fund the further development through patreon.

          • Valeli

            I don’t have much pride in my ability to add and subtract whole numbers, but I do expect other people in a reasonable age range to be able to do that as well… I’m not asking my opponents to do integrals or anything here.

            I’ll admit I don’t really understand the joy in army building apps. I’m that way about a lot of newer trendy social-media stuff too. So maybe I’m just biased.

            Anyways. If you want to use whatever, that’s cool. But make sure it works right first. Otherwise you can do it yourself. The math involved in this really isn’t challenging. They teach it before 4th grade.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh. Totally agree. Maybe it’s my bias due to profession, but I use new tech weekly.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            There also an app for a calculator on someones mobile phone!

          • NNextremNN

            Could you point me to the next store where I can buy this so called “common sense”? I would like to buy that once for GW and once for you …

        • Nyyppä

          To secon Zee here you must remember who we are talking about. People still mostly play shooting wrong, in 7th most played grenade rules wrong, many can’t solve 3+3*3=x and so on. People are pretty damn simple if you think about it. Many are just unscrupulous. Add the wishful thinking and plain “the end justifies the means” type of need to win and you really, really want an official, automatic, unexploitable tool to manage the dumb and to keep the cheat in check.

  • Primarch Vulkan

    wonder if the guy used BattleScribe and there was an error in the data file. But ya this list looks blah. I dont think Smite needs a change. I think certain units need to be changed. Maybe they should get baby smite instead of full smite. A freaking Thousand Sons Scarab Occult Sorcerer can’t even cast full smite yet this stupid primaris psyker can.

    • John Henry III

      My grey knights agree

      • Ronin

        As do mine. *cries*

    • Ninety

      I’m of the opinion that psychic powers (in matched play) need a restriction changed where instead of infinite Smite and everyother power being a one time deal, any subsequent attempt at the same psychic power carries a stacking -1 casting penalty. Curtails Smite spam, opens up strategies ussing support powers, and gives some added value to non-Smite offensive powers, which tend to be a downgrade from it.

      • Primarch Vulkan

        Ya thats not bad or maybe just a flat, you can only cast smite 3 times a turn or something like that

      • Ronin

        I think full smite should only be unlocked by units that cost over 70 points or some target value. That way elite psyker armies like grey knights actually have a chance against hordes while spamming these little HQ psykers wouldn’t make as much of a dent.

        • BrianAWC

          That’s what I keep thinking. Smite Spam is a problem mostly because there are 40 point units that can cast it.

          • Puppet Soul

            There are 6 point units that can cast it.

            The problem is that smite is too point-efficient to be a basic weapon.

      • Charles Keeling

        Smite should simply add 2 to the difficulty for each successive attempt.

      • Simon Bates

        I’d be up for all powers getting a cumulative -1 for every attempt per turn replacing the Rule of One. I’d exempt baby smite powers (Grey Knights, Tzeentch, Warlocks etc) from this penalty to avoid them becoming virtually worthless.

        This would make armies with lots of Psykers more interesting than they are now, but undercut their potential for sheer Smite spam. It’d allow some other powers to be spammed to some degree, but at the cost of being harder to pull off than using a different power. As the modifier is to the casting roll itself, it also makes Denying the Witch easier, as even successful rolls will be lower and thus easier to beat. Finally, the exception for baby smite makes Psykers with this ability relatively more powerful, which in most cases is probably fine.

        • Puppet Soul

          The current dominant army (and the one that got DQ’d from the finals table leaving IG to face an empty board and win by default), runs 35pt Baby Smite as their basic troop choice.

          The presence of 35pt Baby Smite Spam led by 30pt Smite Spam has pushed the meta away from being able to run dedicated melee elites: they kill 30pts and then get smited off the table. That’s why Culexus Assassins are being taken in multiples: a melee unit that is immune to 90% of the field.

    • Fergie0044

      I’d sooner see these type of cheap spammable psykers getting a point increase. Apart from certain armies (GK, 1k sons etc), psykers should be rare and powerful.

      • Cheyennevan

        Or only allow one Primaris per detachment

        • Fergie0044

          Or get rid of the supreme command detachment?

          • aargh00

            It really is insane to have that detachment in the game, especially with cheap psyker HQs and nonsense like Malefic Lords running around. It serves no purpose other than to allow spamming of such units.

            Of course, I’m old school and think everybody should just go back to using the old CAD (or for 8th, maybe just the three general detachments: Patrol, Battalion, Brigade).

        • Puppet Soul

          So one Primaris and four Inquisitors.

          You’re missing the forest because the cheapest tree: Smite is the most point-efficient ranged weapon.

    • Neil Burns

      Smite on a 5+ is basically a 2+ to deal d3 wounds. They’ve seriously gotta bump the cost on psykers universally by 20-25 points.

      • Apocryphus

        Or make Smite cast on an 8+ or something. It’s just so easy to use while every other power is harder to cast.

        • Neil Burns

          As it stands, I’d really prefer seeing Smite dialed way the heck back for some armies. As an example, why can a Maelific Lord, some jerk who just read a few books on chaos cast smite better than most Grey Knights, marines who had been trained pretty extensively by experts on doing that? I’d like to see Smite universally turned into a 6+, that increases in casting cost by 2 per cast. So, after 1 cast, the next Psyker would do it on a 8, and so on.

          • thatpirateguy

            Smite is fine as is if you are paying 105 points for a Librarian.

            But 40 points per smite combined with supreme command detachments? Now it is getting out of hand.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Well, he is a witch and a Daemonhost at the same time.

      • Drpx

        Or just let you Deny the Witch multiple times. Professor X could shut down nearly every telepath on Earth without even using Cerebro, but Tigerius the uber Librarian with a Psychic Hood just goes derp against a bunch of lvl 1 scrub psykers.

        • Adam Richard Corrigan

          Each time you successfully deny you generate another chance to do it?

          • Puppet Soul

            One strong psyker with + in psychic phase would make your entire parking lot immune to psychic powers.

        • NNextremNN

          This won’t fix the problem for armies who can’t bring psykers.

          • Drpx

            Necrons once had Gloom Prisims that let them nullify powers on a 4+ and Tau could just snipe the Psyker or blast the army apart out of Smite range. Give people tools, don’t take them away.

          • NNextremNN

            But Tau don’t have good snipers and even if they had if you bring a lot to counter a lot of psykers you make yourself vulnerable against other lists. While the smite spam is universally good. I still think the main problem is that smite does mortal wounds and there are no ways to prevent these. If smite would do normal wounds this whole thing would look differently.

    • Puppet Soul

      His opponent was a Chaos titan list, which also ran smite spam.

      Basically, the rule of the day is that you are either going wide, or going tall, and smite spam is every army’s most viable weapon.

      • NNextremNN

        Except not all armies have access to smite.

    • NNextremNN

      I think the easiest fix would be to make smite a normal attack that can be resisted by armor and invul saves.

  • DrLove42

    Still think thr issue is with multiple detachments, particularly the Supreme Command detachment.

    Further limiting detachments or having some kimd of negative to using multiple should be in place.

    And Supreme Command should just be banned. Never seen a list use it that doesnt just spam cheap units.

    • Mateusz Kuzio

      You need it for titanic vehicle with doctrine in AM army.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        You can take LOW units by themselves, but SCD gives a CP.

        • Puppet Soul

          LOW by itself cannot take a regimental doctrine.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            How did I miss that?

  • I_am_Alpharius

    “It is a rough thing to see this happen in multiple events and really shows that we need a true official Army builder from GW. We also need to have events double check lists, especially the winners from the first day.”

    Really? Hobbyist need a GW app to create an army list? How lazy are people these days? What a load of tosh! Given, it is often spouted, how “competitive” gamers are some of the best gamer around, intentional cheating left aside, it baffles me how these same hobbyist can’t manage write a simple army lists.

    • ZeeLobby

      C’mon, you act like you wouldn’t use the app if it exists?

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Nope I would not. More hassle than its worth. Pen, Paper and brain is fine enough.

        • ZeeLobby

          Sigh. I can understand the fear coming from GW’s past app experiments, so touche…

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Its not that. Its just that not everything in life “needs” an app for it.

          • ZeeLobby

            True. When it comes to this entire hobby no one really “needs” anything, but it’d be pretty sweet. Throw in some wound tracking, score keeping, etc. Would be useful.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Now I’m I think you’re pulling my leg. Wound tracking, score keeping, etc even more silly than a Army Building app.

          • ZeeLobby

            Why?

          • Spade McTrowel

            Where’s the line between playing a tabletop wargame and hobby and just plugging in a video game?

          • ZeeLobby

            Right, and that’s the movement, dice, and tabletop strategy. I don’t consider rotating wound dice, or moving physical tally markers as a true sign of “tabletop war-gaming”.

          • Apocryphus

            That line is where you stop buying, converting, and painting models and stop going to game stores, meeting new people, and making new friends, and just sit down at a computer and click on the screen to move units. A digital app that helps you keep track of your army list and wounds on models is about as much a video game as a calculator is.

          • Drpx

            Patching and update frequency.

          • NNextremNN

            What GW does with FAQs / Erratas and a new Codex every month so what you are saying is 40K is already a videogame?

          • I_am_Alpharius

            They would all be a case of over engineering to solve a small problem. Just use dice/pen and pencil to track all those things, its not hard!

            It like when the Americans spent millions of $ on developing a pen that would write in space. Where the Russian just used a pencil. Over engineering to solve a non problem.

          • ZeeLobby

            I just don’t see why it’s a bad thing? I personally know plenty of people who would use it. I already know people who use PP’s War Room, or Life Tracking apps for MTG, etc. If there are sessions to join, it also keeps you up to date on what your opponents models health and game status is. It’s not like it’s asking you to remove measuring or movement or dice rolling etc. The things that make up tabletop gaming. It just gives you more information at your fingers. Even better if it had unit rules, that were updated based on the FAQs and Errata that GW are planning to push out at a faster rate.

            Having played at many competitive events, the back and forth questioning of current status of units takes a significant amount of time, especially for a game like 40K where most of the time the player whose turn it’s not is mostly just waiting. I think it’d be a pretty useful tool.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Ya but what happens when Russia hacks the app during a tournament?

          • ZeeLobby

            LOL, creating division amongst war gamers!!! What ever will we do?! XD

          • LankTank

            Fake news!

          • Dan

            except flakes of graphite and pencil shavings could, and they figured zero gravity to likely would, get into important electronics and break them, causing the entire ship to crash and kill everyone on board.

            but hey it was a couple million dollars cheaper right?

            Ultimately the USSR either didn’t plan ahead or thought the risk was acceptable. So did the US over-engineer or did they consider life to have a different value than the USSR?

          • Apocryphus

            Dice clutter the play space and can get accidentally picked up or moved during the game. I know I’ve forgotten to move wound dice before after moving a Hive Tyrant, and then I have to ask my opponent to verify the wounds on it so I don’t look like I’m trying to cheat. A new sheet of paper for tracking wounds, spells, warlord traits, scores, and whatever else every game quickly becomes wasteful and also creates clutter. A simple app can create a nice, clean play space and keep you invested in playing the game rather than constantly moving all your extra peripherals out of the way. It’s just a nice quality of life addition.

          • Gorsameth

            Right up to the point where your tablet / phone runs out of power. Because that has never happened before.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. True. Some foresight helps though. My tablet makes it through a day of events. If I just have my phone I just bring a battery pack. Sure they’re hassles, but they’re really just different hassles, not necessarily worse.

          • LankTank

            Yeah cause that sounds easier than using paper

          • ZeeLobby

            Well. Don’t forget a Codex. And your calculator. And a pen/pencil. And the phone that’s already on you anyway. So yeah. It is easier. Thanks for noticing! 😀

          • LankTank

            Thats cool. You can have aa single app, charger, codex on phone, no bookmarks to your units then get disqualified cause the app hasnt been updated with whatever or had something wrong. Oh then have to every 10 seconds consukt your phone when your opponent goes how many wounds has that suffered? Cause nothing will be on the table. Oh and when I put a dice to signify wounds, there will be you, changing apps on your phone to the wound tracker, finding specific unit and logging data. Should only tske you what, 1 minute for a 2 second task? Awesome

          • ZeeLobby

            I have bookmarks, so i dunno what you’re talking about. You don’t sound very tech-savvy though. None of these things you’ve mentioned take 1 minute, but it’s OK, I understand. You old people need your old tech, us younger folks can use the new stuff. Win/Win.

          • LankTank

            Yup thats me. Old as the hills (28). Or maybe im just able to understand app limitations. But then as im not as “tech savy” as you, maybe I will just delude myself into thinking that somehow you can input variable data Into a phone faster than it takes me to place a single dice. And somehow that information would also be readily evident to my opponent. What a world you “younguns” live in

          • ZeeLobby

            Too true. And then you might have to place 2/3/4 dice depending on the unit, and then not pick them up, and then make sure they’re visible, and then make sure your opponent knows they represent wounds left and not taken (or vice versa as both are common at events). Your opponent will probably repeatedly ask out of how many as well. But yeah. It’s just putting down a single die. 😛

            (All joking aside, the War Room app for WMH does exactly what I’m talking about and it’s dead simple to do, even with WMH complex wound/column system. Maybe you’ve just never experienced a well thought out implementation before? Two taps and one swipe. Hardly this complex action your imagining)

          • LankTank

            Im curious, what single event ever causes you to place more than a single die, let alone 4? I suppose if you wound a titan but otherwise nothing I could imagine as split wound shennanigans are gone. And you still seem to miss the fact that no matter how EASY the app is, it will not be as easy as placing a dice. I will however agree that an app possibly prevents players who “forget” that it was a wound die from rolling it, but I never understand why the dice isnt on rhe unit, or cocked against the base. I think some players are just shifty cause its not hard to remember the dice sitting on your leman russ is the wounds

          • ZeeLobby

            Well if we’re using 6 sided die, as most 40K players do, then I’d need 4 dice to count wounds on a Tau Stormsurges, counting up or going down. Other units need 2/3. Or your loading them down with tokens, or d20s. Etc. I still fail to see how putting down 4 d6 wound dice on a single models base, even a large one, and then moving it around is a more elegant solution then 2 taps and a swipe. Regardless of the risk of picking them up, your now cluttering the cinematic battlefield with tokens and signifiers. Even better, an app could reflect the current state of a vehicle/unit without having to look it up. I mean I get it, you really don’t like an app, and that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean it’s not more efficient or convenient. As mentioned above, the WMH app does all this and more, and is dead simple to use. I’m glad GW is making their own apps, and hopefully one comes for 40K. It’s not like they don’t have the money to build something pretty awesome. And people who love the real feel of wound dice in their hand always have that option.

          • NNextremNN

            A knight has 24 Wounds so 1D20 + 1D6 or 2D12 or 4D6.

            Magnus has 18 so 1D20 or 1D12 + 1D6 or 3D6.

            No matter if you count wounds up or down there are situations where you would need multiple dice.

            Oh and not everything has a flat base or armour plating to place dice on a even surface.

          • NNextremNN

            I’m 31 and know several ways how this could be done easily of course you need someone familiar with the game and knowledge of usability to make the app. Pressing a few + or – buttons maybe several times is not much slower than looking for a number on a D20.

          • DJ860

            To suggest that an app is more likely to be out of date than a book is frankly, ludicrous.

          • LankTank

            This isn’t a medical textbook with breakthroughs outdating it. We base an entire armies rules off one book and accompanying faq pdf. the information can ONLY come from this one source, so no, thinking that the book would be up to date is NOT ludicrous. For example fw books are always wrong, but we still have to play RAW. And additionally when the app requires a release of said books, then an individual update to change the information loaded in the app allowing another potential set of human error it is easy to see how an app could NOT be correct

          • DJ860

            Not sure what a medical textbook has to do with 40k, completely irrelevant example.

            “The information can only come from one source”

            Have you actually played 40k before?

          • LankTank

            Sorry the reference to medical textbook is an analogy as they are documents that are initially fact and then continuously superceded since you brought up tge issue of published text somehow not being as up to date as an electronic app. I thought it was clear but apparently not. But do you have an example for 40k of rulings for the game that are not specified in the codex/rulebook/faq? 3 published texts? Or are you just relying on bitter comments about 40k to win your argument?

          • DJ860

            It’s still an irrelevant example.

            Not really sure where you got bitter from.

            My feelings aren’t really relevant either and while people might have a preference for paper books, which I totally understand, you’re suggesting that paper books are more up to date and a digital app/book.

            That, is nonsense, and the fact that this even has to be explained to someone in 2017 is mind boggling.

            If you preference is to have a paper book thats essentially frozen in time the moment it’s released, fair enough. You can’t just ignore facts for your own personal preference though.

            If there’s a misprint or an update needed to a book, what do you do? Buy the second version? Put sticky notes in it? Use a pen and scribble out the old information?

            Please explain to me how this is better than having a digital living product because I’d love to know what I’m not understanding.

          • NNextremNN

            Well we already know printed books are wrong and have errors which can never be fixed (No printing out FAQs won’t fix the printed error in the book). So why is a error in a app which can be patched so much worse?

          • Apocryphus

            It’s never happened to me. If you’re going to a big all day event, bring a portable charger, or bring physical lists and your books. It’s not that difficult to prepare properly.

          • NNextremNN

            It’s not like any smartphone addict wouldn’t already carry around powerbanks. What happens when your pen runs dry? or you used your last sheet of paper?

          • Adam Marshall

            FWIW, the Fisher Pen Company developed the pen independently of NASA and the Russians used it extensively too.

            It was engineered to solve several problems, including being non-flammable, able to work in zero gravity and extreme temperatures, and not suffering from bits of lead snapping off, flying around and shorting out electronic circuits.

            To extend the analogy, the app probably is a very good idea for a bunch of reasons…

          • NNextremNN

            Seriously? That is your argument???

            Pencils have a tendency to break and leave little particles. These floating around in zero gravety can become a hazard like getting in someones eye or even can cause a short and damage expensive equipment. These can kill people in space not mentioning failing critical parts of the mission.

            An app would be a great way to improve the game for a lot of people and maybe even attract new ones. And no one said you should be forced to use the app you could still use you pen, paper and dice your opponent would just carry around less stuff and track things in a different way.

            What you are saying is basically only your opinion is right and everyone else is wrong.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Whoaaa nelly, get of your high horse was joking about the pencil thing (obviously didn’t come across). That story is a common myth surrounding the Space Programmes. I was using to make a point of how absurd the notion that a app is a necessity for such small things.

          • NNextremNN

            No one said it was a necessity but it could be an incredible easy helpful tool. In your example the pen was the much saver alternative. And even the Russians started to solely use these space pens later.

            If you add facts to your story and still want to use this the conclusion would be the app is better in any way and should be used by anyone.

            But this is not what should happen here the app should be an alternative that some player would prefer. The rest could still use their old pen & paper.

            Or do you fear that the app actually would be so much better then the pen & paper that anyone would take over using these (basically what happened in you space anecdote)? It’s actually questionable if GW can create something that good. Are you just afraid of loosing that old school pen, paper, dice touch to your game? I wouldn’t agree with that but at least could understand this. People constantly reject new things because of fear.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            *sigh* Bee in your bonnet much?

            No one said it was a necessity….hmmm yes…..except the being explicitly stated in the article that “It is a rough thing to see this happen in multiple events and really shows that we need a true official Army builder from GW”

            I never said other hobbyist should not use an app or should not be allowed to use one. I merely expressed my opinion/questioned that such tools for this hobby are a bit like using a stone to crack an egg. Nor, I am in fear of, or “afraid” of technology. Quite the opposite. Technology is great, but plenty of things in life don’t need a technological solution….

          • NNextremNN

            I was more referring to the other commenters but yes you are correct for the article. Also it’s totally the players own fault for getting disqualified. It’s just sad for the others who lost against him up to that point. And this might could have been prevented if there was an fast and easy way to check all list earlier and not just for the final game.

            Also nothing “needs” a technological solution but many things get better/easier with it. Cracking the egg with a stone is already better then crushing it with your bare hands. Even pen & paper are technologies. These things are tools and tools can be improved.

            You could track wounds by memorising them in your head, on a sheet of paper, with dice, a special wound tracker in the base or with an app. All those things work all are valid you decide what to use. I would actually prefer a build in wound tracker into the bases/models but these are expensive/hard to get/hard to build in or around/destroy the theme of the model and might be invalidated in later editions.

          • SonoftheMountain

            true, but not to bash GW or be a PP fanboy, War Room has been a godsend for building army lists for Warmahordes. It shows that a properly built app can work wonders for ensuring all lists are legal

          • ZeeLobby

            I find that it really comes down to those who’ve experienced the other side, and those who haven’t. Sometimes you just can’t convince them that it’s a good thing.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be an option that people can purchase if they want to. Business is business.

          • ZeeLobby

            Heck, I’d pay for it in a heartbeat. Updated rules/points without printing out spreadsheets. Sign me up!

      • Gorsameth

        Sure, use the app. But if your going to a tournament take the time to double check the points by hand.

        Don’t blindly trust in an app to be right.

        Before we had apps for it I would calculate my tournament lists multiple times from scratch to make sure I didn’t make a mistake somewhere.

        • ZeeLobby

          Nothing wrong with that.

        • LankTank

          Thats what I was thinking. Tornaments can just check the top 10 lists. If you want to go into a tournament without triple checking your list then you deserve to be pubically DQ

    • Jon N

      Agreed, when I’m writing a list I live with my codex, take it on walks and take it to meet my parents, I’ve never once used an app to just pour in filth and let it strain it out into a list

    • Charles Keeling

      If you cannot do a simple math problem then 40k might be too hard for you. Harsh penalties for cheating like this will fix the problem instantly.

    • effinger2

      Maybe he cheated on purpose. It has to be seriously considered.

    • Adam Richard Corrigan

      Problem is, we’ve all seen the mistakes made by GW in codexes etc, who says theirs would be better than BS.

    • I use the old “Paper and Pencil” technique, worked for third edition, works now.

      • NNextremNN

        I still chisel my list into stone. It’s better than using paper because it won’t decay and can still be read in thousand years …

        There is nothing wrong with using pen and paper or an app. Mistakes can happen with both. The only problem is there is no official alternative for the later so we rely on questionable rule sources and interpretations.

        Illegal lists should be disqualified no matter where or how they were created. But such mistakes should be found earlier then the final game.

  • Defenestratus

    So glad I don’t have any interest in using dice-driven toy plastic dolls as a measure of competition.

    I guess I just click on these links because I just can’t help it. Like smelling spoiled milk. You know you shouldn’t but you just can’t help it.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      I don’t know, sometimes when I see him play his dolls I get the shivers.

      He’s so confident when he brushes their hair, pure skill.

    • Drpx

      You wouldn’t be here if you didn’t secretly want to go to competitions full of smelly WAAC types and dominate them with cheeseball power lists. You know it’s true.

  • Adam Richard Corrigan

    I hate lists like this, don’t resemble even the most specialist type of army, more like an extreme version of Mission Impossible and proves nothing about generalship on the battlefield. I’d love to see the big tournaments have a best of 3 final where they use their own list, each others list and two identical lists created by the organisor. This I would attend. As to the over points that sucks as it skewed all previous games and could have ended with a different last day of games.

    • generalchaos34

      I agree, everything about this list is stupid and makes the game worse for it. Valhallan conscripts with Elysian Mortars plus scions, also some sisters and whatever an assassin? Seriously, wheres the esprit de corps, about caring about what your army is at its core. If you’re going to play guard PLAY GUARD! Hordes of men and tanks ready to sacrifice their lives for the Emperor. Sure you can throw in maybe a celestine or an assassin in the mix to give it character but this is too much.

    • Drpx

      That’s called Chess.

      • Adam Richard Corrigan

        No chess is chess and is a more extreme example and the ones used by WAAC players when someone points out that their only ability is to break lists.

  • Randy Randalman

    We don’t NEED an official army builder. We need people to not be stupid and over reliant on software like Battlescribe. That said, GW is making one, and a result like this will get their attention (as all recent events have).

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      BURN THE PRINTING PRESS

    • ZeeLobby

      And everyone guffawing at using “technology” (ewwww!) to write lists will suddenly all be on board… (assuming GW can get their own points values right)

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Indeed there is a difference between ‘needing’ and apps being a ‘handy’ tool for people who like that kind of thing. Yet even with an app, gamers will still manage to cheat or make human errors using it.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        I think Randy is a constant testament to human error

      • ZeeLobby

        Well, especially if the app lets them.

    • Primarch Vulkan

      Battlescribe is pretty nice. I think folks just need to submit bugs when they see them. The community is pretty good about fixing issues. I found some issues in the CSM dex and had no problem getting them resolved. Its fine to use an Army builder….Just check the math before you go to a tournament. Its nice to see a well formatted list sometimes which is what BattleScribe does.

    • mgdavey

      So you’re saying that if people didn’t use BS or whatever, they’d make LESS mistakes?

    • Drpx

      I lol when I think about all the number crunching and stat research these guys do—and they fail at arithmetic and cataloguing.

    • NNextremNN

      Oh yeah because people never made any mistakes without software or computers…

      Those things were invented to make things faster and to lower the amount of mistakes. Which of course needs good programming and testing before. And there still won’t be a 100% perfect software. You still need some thought from the user and maybe an update. Just like you do with pen, paper and books.

  • MarcoT

    Just have smite restricted to once a turn too. Fixed.

    • ZeeLobby

      This is what I’d prefer honestly. Smite in it’s current incarnation feels more like a gun upgrade than a psychic ability. Or heck, each additional casting has a higher chance of failure, etc.

      • LankTank

        Ive honestly never been afraid of smite but I think thats a mixture of me playing death guard and also always placing something closer to the psyker. Oooh 6d3 mort a l wounds? The 8 lost poxwalkers care not

      • NNextremNN

        I’d rather see Smite getting weapons stats with strength and so on that can be resisted by armour or shields. They could even change these stats for each unit so cheaper units use a version with less strength or more a expensive ones use one with higher strength. It’s not like they already tried to do something similar for some units.

        I don’t understand why any mechanic needs rules and special effects that ignore these mechanics. Most common attack from a Librarian as shown in fluff seems to be a lightning so why can’t this be stopped by a shield or armour?

        • ZeeLobby

          That could work too. Clearly something g needs to be done.

  • Wes

    The need for an electronic list builder becomes apparent when you need to check hundreds of lists. As I understand, this event has over two hundred attendees. If you want to QC all those lists in a timely manner, you either need a boatload of volunteers, a boatload of paid checkers, or a commonly available program that is up to date and accurate.

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean even if the most your getting out of it is a commonly printed format it can be a godsend (friend of mine has been a TO in the past).

    • Gorsameth

      Which is why an acceptable compromise is to check the undefeated lists after day 1. You don;t spot them before they play games unfortunately but atleast it won’t be spotted on the final table by the stream…

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Excel/Google Sheets do the job just fine.

  • Here we have another Unbeatable list. However it is not a proper list, it is a W.A.A.C list. Ignore it, move on, hope you never have to play whoever made it.

  • DoctorBored

    Man, my own paranoia alone would keep me from making these over-points mistakes. I’d build it in an army builder, then double-check every point and add it up five different times before spending hundreds of dollars going to an event that I’d most likely lose anyway.

    But hey, we’ll see if lists like this keep at the top of the meta with the commissar nerf. Neat to see Seraphim being taken in the list, though I have a feeling they were there just to screen Celestine. Still, always happy to see Sisters of Battle on the field.

    • Gorsameth

      With Celestine you have 2 acts of faith per turn, might aswell take a second Sister unit to not waste it.
      Tho I prefer a retribution unit for it.

  • Neil Burns

    Just buy an astropath for 14 points after dropping the staff for a laspistol. Fix a blob squads ld on a 4+ roll.

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      That’s a great use of alternative options! It costs less points, works really frequently, and gives a really powerful punch to a single use of conscripts! WELL SPOTTED!

      On the other end, you can only use that psychic power once per phase and it can be denied if the enemy has a psyker.

      Man, it’s like no one noticed that before because it had tradeoffs and limitations and commissars just mindlessly worked…

      • Neil Burns

        My current solutions are that, and it seems no one’s realized Petrov’s Mk45 makes a commissar act exactly the same pre-nerf.

        • generalchaos34

          valhalla will rise again!

        • YetAnotherFacelessMan

          It really does solidify Valhallans as THE conscript army. You can have two units of conscripts led by a single commander that is able to keep them from running and make them shoot better half the time.

          But both of those solutions are non-spammable by their nature. I think that’s a great thing. ^_^

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    That second Battalion’s a lead brick tactically. Can’t even use Regiment Traits (Elysians/DKK should be nerfed the same way).

  • LordKrungharr

    I think a rule disallowing repeat characters per single detachment would be a really good thing for the game.

    • effinger2

      YES!!!!!!!!! That list is cheese ball central.

  • mgdavey

    How hurt is this list by the change to Commisars?

  • GWELLS

    You know you can still do conscipt spam with a Commisionar with the “Draconian Disciplinarian” Warlord Trait and another character with the Valhallan ” Pietrov’s MK 45″ pistol relic will work just like two regular old Commisionars. If you want conscipt spam you might want to go Valhallan for your army doctrine.

  • Drpx

    They FAQ-nerfed Guard and Guard still won. AHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! Guard are going to mulch through Eldar, too, mark your time pretty elf boys. Gunhammer 40,000 Conscripts, Age of Smitemar Alpha Strike Edition is here.

    • E65

      Go read it again, you missed a bit.

  • Marcus Clark

    Physker spam needs a huge nerf, something simple like: Each time the same spell is cast in current magic phase add +1 to the casting amount required. This way smite can still be cast but each time it gets considerably harder.

    • Simon Bates

      -1 to casting roll is better, I reckon, because it also makes Denying the Witch easier when they are cast. I’d make it per attempt, not per cast, and I’d make baby-Smites immune to give Grey Knights et al a relative boost. Moreover it can replace the Rule of One, which would make give Psyker-heavy armies interesting choices to make both for allocating powers and deciding what combinations to use and where to prioritise.

      • Marcus Clark

        That would also work great as some relics that get a +1 for smite casting wont lose out either.
        Also GK and Demons need a small nerff, Units casting Smite should only effect single models, eg Damage does not carry over like shooting attacks. I’ve seen many Smite heavy handed demon army’s too.

        • InstaAxeToast

          Why do GK need a nerf? Their smite only does 1 wound so there is never any spillover. Not to mention the limited range. They are a good army, not top tier.

          • Marcus Clark

            I thought it was d3

  • warpface

    I’m not in the US so I can’t go to these events, but it’d be nice to actually see the army for once as well as the list. How about a photo?

    There’s like 150 infantry and 5 tank. Are they all painted and everything? I hope they’re not just grey plastic…

    • InstaAxeToast

      They were painted, the SoCal open has a rule that min 3 colours and the models have to be based.

      One guy had 500 points of his list pulled due to the fact it was not painted.

  • King Renegado

    Fix here is simple.
    No duplicate assassins.
    Only one faction per detachment (as in it must have astra militarum keyword to be taken in an astra Militarum detachment.)
    Only one conscript squad per regular guard infantry squad.
    Boom. Fixed.

    • NNextremNN

      That only one faction per detachment is the Imperium faction there already is a rule for that. What you want is to remove the Imperium faction keyword from all units.

      • King Renegado

        I suppose that’s what I mean.
        No space marine captains as HQ for astra militarum.
        Certain imperium keywords should be fine to take (assassins and inquisitors) but they definitely need to do something to come down on the “imperium soup” as it is called.

        • NNextremNN

          I think they already tried with things like you only get you chapter trait if your whole detachment has that specific chapter keyword.

          I think a SM Captain giving AM orders is not that bad from a lore perspective. The problems arise when some armies become the avengers or justice league with all the greatest heroes of the galaxy.

          The rest are balancing issue which are probably impossible to remove completely.

          And the tournament organisers and tournament players seem to be
          perfectly fine with this. Otherwise things like the supreme command
          detachment would be banned from such tournaments.

  • ILikeToColourRed

    gotta love how people see these tournament lists and try to “fix” them

  • Hollow Outside

    Just use Powerlevels. Problem solved.