Mynock Squadron: The Last Jedi SPOILERS Talk

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X-Wing Pilots: all wings report in! Scanners are picking up SPOILERS ahead. We’re talking The Last Jedi this week!

Welcome to the Mynock Podcast C

*LAST JEDI SPOILERS*

WE DID IT EVERYONE! EPISODE 100! For this very special episode Ryan, Dee, Dallas, and Shea talk about The Last Jedi. Is it X-Wing related…no, but this is Episode 100, we can do ANYTHING! Thank you so much for sticking with us this long. Love you all.

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Hosts:
Shea Bundrant
Ryan Farmer
Dallas Parker
Dee Yun

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Fly Better! And hit us with your comments below.

  • I’d rather watch Attack of the Clones again. At least that one didn’t blatantly scrap everything that came before in an opaque attempt to wipe the slate for the next trilogy where Disney can go full Disney (though they’ve come pretty close this time anyway).

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      Inside the 2 1/2 hour crap film is a good 1 1/2 hour film screaming to get out. I look forward to the fan edit versions.

      • ZeeLobby

        I think that’s the worst part of it. You can SEE the good film beneath the veneer, but it’s like they told the writers “keep going, we need more crap”.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          “more cuddly alien wildlife, and make some of it lactate!” said no other film director ever…

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Great movie. I loved how it subverted all your expectations to create a well rounded and engaging film. I, for one, am incredibly interested in Rian Johnson’s next film trilogy. I am also dreading JJ Abrams returning for episode IX.

    • I’m honestly curious how you’d come to call the whole Canto Bight story well-rounded and engaging. It felt so contrived and tacked-on, it may as well have been scrapped entirely or a 4 comic issue mini series, like they’ve been fond of doing.

      • AEZ

        Gave some back story to the woman. Insight in her motivations for joining the rebellion (and the same for that force kiddie). Also it shows that random untrustworthy guys – you know prisoner criminal types are UNTRUSTWORTHY… not everyone is a Han Solo or Lando. It also shows that stupid plans from shooty pow pow hotshot pilot are actually stupid and hurt more than only the one involved in the plan (like drinking and driving.. yes POE it’s also YOUR fault the cloaked shuttles got discovered.) Crazy 1 in a million plans going wrong… it’s not really starwars… but I think the universe needed a bit of reality in that way.

        • Drpx

          If I want to watch people screw up and get hundreds killed, I’ll turn on the news.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            The movie was about subverting the audience’s expectations. Making real consequences to the heroes bad decisions is something we do not often see in movies. It was quite refreshing.

          • Valeli

            I hear this a lot about how it was made to subvert opinions, and I guess that’s true. And there’s nothing wrong with it. You can do some really good/moving stuff by subverting audience expectations, which is no doubt one reason this sort of stuff has become more popular.

            I think there’s an important distinction between subverting the audiences expectations (Vader is Luke’s dad? What? They killed Ned stark? What?) And making almost an entire movie that seeks to repeatedly do that though.

            My subjective opinion is that this movie went to heavily down the second path.

            Giving bad/risky plans consequences can also pan out… but so much of star wars till now has clearly been about heroic/anti-heroic individuals. It seems weird to suddenly shift the focus and make them normal. Which is probably one reason I didn’t like that side story…

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Which I totally recognize and understand. This film is not for everybody.

          • Drpx

            If I want a deconstruction of the space opera genre, I’ll go watch some fedora-wearing blowhard on YouTube.

        • Valeli

          Don’t think that the random hyperspacing through a stardestroyer was any better than poe’s thing…

          In fact I think it’s much worse, since the film presents it as a laudable action and then goes on to present little Asian girls stopping Finn from doing the same as a laudable action.

          It’s like the film can’t make up it’s own mind.

          I also agree with Dark Chaplain that many elements felt tacked on, incomplete, and unnecessary. I was pretty disappointed (and that’s saying something since I wasn’t a huge fan of the first in this trilogy either, and as such had fairly low initial expectations for this).

          • AEZ

            A last ditch attempt when you are already dead and there is no one else in the ship which you command is not the same as going against orders and your commanding officers who (for exactly the right reasons) has not included you in her team of strategists and hasn’t given up yet.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            The difference between Holdo and Finn was that Holdo’s plan helped the Resistance escape. Finn’s sacrifice would have been meaningless because, even if the door was not blown open, the First order would have eventually gained entry and slaughtered everyone inside (remember at that time, there was no other known way to escape the base).

          • 9breaker

            They also got the idea there was a means to escape when they thought Luke managed to sneak in undetected from some unknown entrance. We know that’s not true now. Also no way that Luke would have known his little hologram show would not have caused the rebels to run out to help him. He banked on assuming the rebels would make these conclusions rather than telling them outright. Also Leia could have told them, seeing as she knows Luke wasn’t there (Luke literally made the gesture to kiss her). Instead she stays silent in a life or death situation where time was short.

        • Arthfael

          Could not agree more. This movie is a welcome re-injection of some reality in the myth, just what was needed to prevent it going stale.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Canto Bight exists to subvert your exceptions.

        You expect the daring plan made by the heroes to succeed. In the end, it backfires on the heroes and they a) wind up captured, b) DJ betrays them for a lot of money and c) the heroes are directly responsible for deaths of 300+ Resistance Fighters. It also lead to a great moment where you believe the scoundrel will have a change of heart and help save the heroes (like Han and Lando did) but, no, DJ is exactly what he said he was – a man who was only looking out for himself.

        It also sets up the idea that there are lots of people sympathetic to the Resistance, even if they themselves cannot render aid to them right now. It also lead to the great scene with broom stick kid using the force to pull the broom to him, then looking up at the stars, dreaming of becoming a hero.

        It also helped make Rose a deeper and more interesting character.

        Could it have been shorter? Sure but removing it lessens the movie.

      • SacTownBrian

        I agree that the entire Finn side arc was a waste of time that did nothing for the main story line. 45 minutes that could have been left for the extended dvd version.

  • davepak

    The movie was fun, exciting and filled with an array of iconic star wars moments. Loved seeing it. However, it was an absolutely terrible film; it had insane plot holes, incredible inconsistency, and squandered tons of incredible story opportunities in just throwing them away (ray’s parents, the casino planet, who is snoke, the death of phastasm, ackbar, who was vice admiral, etc.). It was incredibly insulting to any intelligent fan – while the prequels were marred with bad cgi, some terrible dialogue and bad acting, ironically they were more sound plot and in character advancement. It was fun, but a terrible film – Rogue One is the star wars movie we had been waiting for – not this.

    • AEZ

      Well.. I disagree 😀 plotholes have been in every starwars movie so far.. but these aren’t that bad in comparison.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Ackbar’s actor passed away during filming.

      Snoke never mattered. Ben was the important one.

      Phasma is just the Boba Fett of this trilogy.

    • Dennis J. Pechavar

      I actually liked that Reys parents didn’t matter. That she was good for her own sake and not just because she was related to a main character was the only thing I liked about this movie. Yes it looked great but the story was…meh. IMO!

    • SacTownBrian

      I hated Rogue One. Such a wasted opportunity to make a Dirty Dozen movie. Instead we got a sappy father daughter movie where everyone dies.

      • Arthfael

        Which was who I loved it 😛

        • ZeeLobby

          Everyone dies, and yet they win! It’s awesome. Totally bucks the trend. It was great. People were clearly looking for something poorly written I guess…

          • Arthfael

            Exactly! Of course, would’ve been better had they survived, but seeing as this is a prequel to Ep IV it makes sense (it’s almost a nice touch of respect for these movies, so as not to steal their spot in the light).
            Speaking of sacrifice, Ep VIII does have some very valuable things to say about its value and when it works or doesn’t, which I think more than make up for its flaws.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I just think they’ve been all over the place with the sequel trilogy. Too many characters and story arks thrown all over. If they just took Flinn out of the movies completely there’d be more room for the other characters to develop. Instead we get a lot of half written development for everyone. Was worse in VII, but still.

          • Arthfael

            Ok for this. Then again, sometimes in real life some arcs do fall flat on their face. I like how Finn is this really down to earth guy, not born a hero but trying to survive while helping his friends and doing the decent thing when he has to. I guess the reason I did not hate EpVII – the Remake was that the 3 main new characters were really likable – even if two are real Mary Sues.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Maybe it’s that they’re like skilled Mary Sue’s. I have no issue with Mary Sue’s who are complete novices who develop into bad*$$ characters. But in VII they went from weren’t to are. I dunno. The development is just not there, it’s like watching someone stumble up the steps to their potential rather than climbing the rock face. For me it may have just been the casting. I don’t consider any of the 3 to be all that amazing of actors.

  • TFA and Rogue One established that hyperdrive works in atmosphere, TLJ established that Relativistic Bombs work. Combined they make almost every space engagement ever in that universe pointless because it could’ve been solved by stacking a transport full with rocks and auto-piloting it into the enemy fleet at near lightspeed.

    Also jeez. The whole Finn/Rose arc was completely pointless, there was no chemistry between the two, the splicer was crap (betrayed by the least trustworthy person ever apperaing in star wars. who knew??) and in the end their effords amounted to nothing.
    Finn could’ve at least done something useful but rose had to almost kill him?!

    Poe/Admiral-not-ackbar was a drawn out lesson in “why communication skills are imperative for a leader” and otherwise also terribly written.

    Overall a boring movie that destroyed my suspension of disbelief the second the extremely slow bombers appeared. Jeez use Y-wings. I mean, really? How are these things even capable of exiting an atmosphere by going 20kph?

    I guess Star Wars for me will stay in the original trilogy and the original EU.

    • Valeli

      If we want to talk about suspension of disbelief, that started when I was told there were only 400 rebels left…. And presumably ~ 2/3 of those died as 2/3 of the big ships popped….

      You don’t have a galactic war against 150 people. It’s more like a galactic government pursuing a tiny band of convicts with multiple divisions, warships, and tanks… but, somehow, failing.

      I never got the sense of a resistance this small in any of the other films. Even in rogue one, where the resistance was still forming.

      The only real resistance I saw here was the constant close ups of that ring, which is something that I’m sure is going on sale soon if it hasn’t already.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        You are conflating the Rebellion and the Resistance.

        The Rebellion was large, well organized and supported by various planetary governments, with lots of smaller cells spread throughout the galaxy.

        The Resistance is literally a bunch of ships and people loyal to Leia after she was kicked out of the Republic’s government due to the scandal of her being Vader’s daughter broke. It is a rag tag bunch of people who foresaw the coming war with the First Order (while the Republic was busy patting itself on its back and de-militarizing itself).

        • Valeli

          Ah. That helps that part make more sense at least, then. Thanks.

        • The resistance stuff is background you need to read the new novels for, I presume?

          • Comics, mostly. Poe Dameron, in the main. Recent issues had the Resistance basically running on nearly no fuel for their craft and nobody gives a damn about their efforts or the First Order.

          • Well… if stuff like that were in the movie instead of the directionless visit on the casino planet it would’ve been much better.
            From what has been told in TFA the First Order was an organization not unlike the Rebellion was back in the original trilogy just with more murder. Surprisingly well funded but short on resources and manpower.
            …which actually would’ve been an intersting reversal of the story. With the imperial remnant being “the rebels against the system” and the Republic in the stronger position. But I guess that’s not black and white enough for Disney.

          • I’ve enjoyed most of the novels out for the new canon, the Poe Dameron comic is decent with some bumps, but the main SW comic series is garbage.

            I’ll say there’s a lot of context to most things that happened so far. Heck, there’s a 4 issue comic series and a novel about Phasma, building her up as a decent-enough villain with her own motivations (survival at all costs, to the point of blatantly betraying the First Order. Heck, she got taken off her home planet by Hux’s father, and killed the man to get better cards with his son!), but the movies did jack all with it. All the sequel trilogy content seems phoned in to somehow make up for the blatant lack of a unified creative vision for the new trilogy. They just film things that look Hollywood/Marvel, without connecting the dots.

            In Bloodline, a novel set ~6 years before TFA, we see Leia bitter and disillusioned with the New Republic’s bickering. There’s some terrorism going on, there are factions in the senate, one of the major two being imperialists who think things may not have been so bad with a central authority and that a lot of infrastructural stuff was thanks to the Empire as well. There’s actually a good amount of time spent making these views believable within the setting, with some characters glorifying Empire artifacts and Leia realizing that they’re not necessarily enemies to draw a line with, but people to work alongside. There’s a lot to like in that novel, not only the paramilitary origins of the First Order itself, but also the way it bridges the generational gaps and makes Empire sympathizers feel plausible. Snoke wasn’t mentioned, I believe, and Kylo was still with Luke.

            Then there’s the Aftermath trilogy, which are dreadful, terrible books more about gender politics than Star Wars, with Portal and Matrix scenes thrown in for reasons. The most interesting part are the interludes which deal with the actual Aftermath of the Empire’s fall: soldiers with PTSD, suicide-TIEs and what not. Meanwhile, Admiral Rae Sloane and co take the remnants of the fleets and troopers and arrange for a convincing defeat to burn the Empire as it was down to the ground and retreat to rebuild as a new order. Whether Sloane is still alive prior to TFA isn’t quite clear; the Phasma novel drops her name iirc, but it may just be a reference to a legendary figure.

            However, at some point Snoke needed to take power from Sloane or her successor, and that has not been shown. We know jack all about him. We know more about Brendol Hux than about Armitage from the movies, and more about both than about the big bad Snoke.

            As for the Resistance, Crait was an old Rebel Base in Leia: Princess of Alderaan. Leia actually found out for good that her parents were all in on the Rebellion right there, while tracking some things down. However, as per Bloodline, nobody took the First Order seriously whatsoever, and it only grew from there, so Leia ended up founding the Resistance at the end of the novel.

            They’re not actually funded by the New Republic, they’re fighting for it but are lacking support. One arc in the Poe Dameron comics even has the Resistance try to capture footage of the First Order acting like bullies and shooting people up to prove that they are a threat – because they’ve been in a cold war with the New Republic/Resistance all along so all is happening behind the scenes. So when TFA happens, the Resistance had been trying to spy on the First Order for a while but the senate was entirely complacent and got wiped out. Nobody gave a damn until it was too late, basically.

  • Kabal1te

    Personally I would rather watch this film which at least had its own story to tell than watch “episode 7: the rehash” again. A lot of things in this film I see people in other comments complaining about are well established parts of star wars like the way the bombers worked or the results of going to hyperspace through another ship. These things have long long been a part of the EU. As for Snoke he didn’t matter. I never thought he did. Who could he have been that would have mattered and how would that have changed anything? Rey, well I am in the camp that Kylo was lying to Rey about who her parents were to try and turn her and the real truth will turn up. After all if you pay attention to the force awakens flash back scene when she is a child, you will note that the voice you hear is Max Von Sidow whose character was the one that gave the map peice to Poe. It is clear there is more to Rey. Now as far as the resistance being so small in both ships and manpower well that goes back to the force awakens and the books that cover the gap between the originals and Force Awakens. When the republic formed after the fall of the Empire most of the rebellion you would recall from the original films and rogue one got pulled onto the republic. In a sense the rebel fleet became the republic fleet. So this resistance this small band of people that saw the alliance between the first order and the republic as a hollow agreement to allow the first order to hide time and build forces is a very small group indeed. This was discussed under Abrams watch. What’s more is Abrams answer to where is the republic fleet, is that it

    • Valeli

      I definitely agree with your thoughts on their being more to Rey, and on ren lying to her about her parents.

      My only issue with this is that leaving the important details out until movie three (and not putting in a ton of substitute info) has made her feel like a very flat character to me so far.

      I’m totally willing to believe she’s not, but I think it’s a bad writing choice to leave out so much character development until the end of a trilogy.

      Feel like a lot of the characters have been pretty flat though. All the old ones have just been intentionally killed off, or died irl. And (most) of the new one’s didn’t get developed too much at all.

      I think nearly everyone acted quite well, but just didn’t have much to go on. I feel like rose has as much (if not more) personality than any of the new film one chars, and that weirds me out.

      But I feel like Poe and Finn were just sort of developmentally abandoned, and don’t see Rey as having been fleshed out all that much more either. The slicer was a total non-charachter…. Plasma isn’t developed. Which is fine, she’s just bobba fett-ish. But I get a bit annoyed because she feels like an overextended cameo to me now.

      Still. As you say, I had more fun with this than 7 to the extent it had a new plot instead of just redoing 4. And it had nothing that made me want to kill myself like jar jar. I wasn’t hugely disappointed walking out of this, and had fun eating my popcorn. But I don’t think I’d call it a well made film at all.

      • Kabal1te

        Well star wars has always been full of over extended cameos. I mean go back and look at the original films. Heck Harrison Ford himself wanted Han to die in Empire because he thought there was nothing to the character and he was the actor. Poe was admittedly supposed to die in Force Awakens but Abrams changed the script to keep him alive. I think that was a mistake. He is a stereotype hot shot pilot with no story. That said what story did even Palpatine or Vader really have in the original movies? Much less Han or Chewy? Same goes for Lando, Fett, Mon Mothma, and even Ackbar. Star Wars has never had developed characters.

        Rey, to be honest I don’t want her to be a Skywalker. We don’t need this to become the hillbilly Skywalker universe, but that of course means who her parents are likely doesn’t matter

        • Valeli

          Well (most) of those charchters you list don’t have much backstory indeed, but we get to know them through the movie and their dialogue/actions/etc.

          Phasma to date has very few lines though, and is just a unique looking storm trooper who could be completely replaced by a bit actor in a standard white uniform with zero impact on the story. Anyone could report how Finn had no prior incidents of improper behavior before in 7, or take the money crates in 8.

          It just feels to me like she’s only in for the sake of keeping that actress in. I have nothing against her, she’s a fine actress, but it feels forced to me.

          • Kabal1te

            The same thing could be said for Boba Fett, or Tarkin, or most of the other imperial characters that aren’t sith.

          • Valeli

            I honestly don’t know who played either, and if either actor was concurrently popular from other films and/or shows when they were cast in the OT. Were they? I missed the originals when they were current and caught them as a kid on vhs.

            You’re totally right if so, and I’m just not in the know.

            If not what I’m getting at is that they cast/kept her just because she’s in Game of Thrones – not so much the fact that she lacks dialogue or development.

    • Dexter Kingsford

      I hope you’re wrong about Rey. I am actually happy this movie is distancing the franchise from being “The Lives and Tales of the Skywalker Dynasty”, this idea that importance is inherited. I never got the impression that Luke was a quick learner in the ways of the force *because* his father was a powerful jedi. In fact much of the original Yoda stuff was very detatched from material stuff like flesh and matter – that he, a nobody in a nowhere swamp, was the most powerful jedi – rather the force was like a state of control that any could access if they gave over control; sorta like what middle class Californians think Buddhism is.

      So I’m praying by the six circles of Slaanesh that they carry through with Rey being some random on a desert planet. It seems more true to the original mysticism that I feel was intended rather than “Your blood type is midichlorian positive, inherent on the HbMc gene from your mum”.

  • Calarax

    I think if rian johnson had done ep VII, ep VIII wouldve been better. I didnt care for VIII as a star wars film, but given what Rian had to work with after JJ’s mess he did a great job. It does sadly make me appreciate the prequels more. I too dread JJ’s return. Had i been given the oppurtunity to a) direct & write a star wars film with b) THE ORIGINAL CAST i wouldve focused on them (as it is clearly thier last foray in star wars films and they deserve the attention, later films can focus on the next generation) and gone in a different direction (not a reboot). The tiny rebellion vs huge evil empire is tired af and i wouldve made the remnant of the empire (probably called the remnant) fill the shoes of a “space terrorist” group with sith ties. As far as luke becoming a failed recluse and han/leias son turning to the dark side and rey and finns tales i like em and wouldve enjoyed them in my own spin on the story. But this is all a futile rabbit hole of what ifs and personal fan fic opinion.

    • Kabal1te

      You do realize JJ Abrams was executive producer of Last Jedi and had a say in what was done right?

      • Drpx

        “LIGHTSPEED IS THE SOLUTION TO EVERYTHING!”

        –Jar Jar Abrams

      • Calarax

        Yeah JJ unfortunately sticks his fingers in all the star trek and star wars pies now. Im glad Rian had final say in both dorecting and story.

  • Dexter Kingsford

    I think too many people expect far too much of Starwars and point out there were dumb character outcomes, silly plot points and unneeded filler bits… but that’s in the original trilogy too. The criticism that The Empire Strikes Back copped in its day was scathing and not invalid.

    I think some perspective is needed – Starwars was always a very safely storylined scifi-fantasy with psychic monk samuri and space nazis run by Satan. It’s a fun series and awesome to eat popcorn to but (at lest within the confined of the movies) it’s not a Citizen Kane.

    It’s a series where things audiably go boom in space, and Yoda turns Luke into a somewhat proficient warrior in the time it takes Han and Leia to get to Bespin. It’s fine, this latest movie has rode the 6/10 average that the original trilogy has.

    • Valeli

      I don’t agree with that.

      I liked rogue one a lot, as did several of my friends who have been quite critical of this and the prequels. So while, yes, expectations may be high among certain groups, it’s certainly not impossible to meet them.

      (Also, like I said earlier, I had fairly low expectations for this one based on my apathy for 7… I wasn’t hyped at all for this.)

      I do agree that these lend themselves to be enjoyable action movies more than truly deep cinema though (not that they’re without their own symbolism, or without their own impressive cinematics).

    • I’m someone who was trying to keep up with everything New Canon, from comics over TV series and of course novels.

      Problem is, a lot of the stuff the novels were building up in anticipation for the Sequel Trilogy, even those books directly marketed as “Journey to” titles, were completely disregarded by Johnson. There’s been progressive build-up to the Snoke reveal. There’s been a complete order of silence on anything Luke before this movie at the very least. They had hints and tidbits in the TFA novelization.

      They had the First Order’s origin story, first in how the Empire’s remnants fled into the Unknown Regions and then again with their Senate faction and paramilitary. They built up the Unknown Regions as holding a big threat to the Galaxy, and Palpatine building observatories in preparation. They had Thrawn recanonized to connect right back to the Unknown Regions and, again, hints towards Snoke. Heck, the recent Leia: Princess of Alderaan novel had Holdo introduced ahead of time, and she feels quite different in the movie to the point where the only thing that makes it clear it’s the same character is the hairdye.

      They built up to A LOT in the Story Group Canon. They managed to connect a lot of dots prior and parallel to Rogue One. Heck, the Jyn Erso origin story was a good read, and the author tied that back into the Catalyst prequel novel and the movie novelization. Everything pre-Sequel Trilogy era has been pretty tight-knit and well told, with no really big holes. If anything, they’ve been connecting things a little too much at times through cameos.

      The ST, though? There’s a complete lack of direction. Rian told people before, he went into TLJ having basically no limits set to him. They’re writing these as they go along, and it shows. There’s no real connecting vision. Instead of building on what the New Canon had gotten via the Story Group’s direction, the movies just swipe things off the table, declare things irrelevant or reveal things in lackluster ways, and missing opportunity after opportunity. All while feeling like a rushed, methodical attempt to wipe the slate clean.

      • dinodoc

        “Heck, the recent Leia: Princess of Alderaan novel had Holdo introduced ahead of time, and she feels quite different in the movie to the point where the only thing that makes it clear it’s the same character is the hairdye.”

        Is she a competent military commander in the novel?

        • She’s got nothing to do with military at all. She’s, like Leia and a few others, an apprentice senator. She does weird sling yoga, resembles Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter with her head-in-the-clouds talk that people struggle to follow, but is a quick thinker when need be. She’s had a knack for astronomy and gets entangled with the Rebellion through Leia, though more as a friend than a rebel herself.

          She starts out as a pretty annoying character that you end up learning enough about, as the novel progresses, to actually like her by the end because she defies your early views of her as things get tough. Seeing her as a general with that kind of attitude is a far cry from her youth.

  • 9breaker

    While the movie does touch on some interesting themes, it never fully commits and as does not deliver a strong message as a result. This is especially true of the main character, Rey, where these themes do not seem to apply.

    1) learning from mistakes – Rey’s mistakes was to trust Kylo in hopes that he would turn good. While her mission to redeem Kylo fails in the end, her little suicide mission results in the death of Snoke, the driving force behind the first order.

    2) blurring lines behind good and evil – Rey had the opportunity to join forces with Kylo and break the barriers that separated Sith and Jedi for millenia. She could have brokered peace and reshaped the galaxy. Instead she backed down andjust doubled down on the good and evil tropes. In doing so, she also dooms Kylo to the role of evil villain, rather than a conflicted character fighting between good and evil.

    3) Out with the old, in with the new – the idea of killing off the old star wars and starting with fresh characters is exemplified by Luke burning the old Jedi texts. But Rey is found click nging to the old texts at the end

    Ultimately, her solution to any problem is to run at it headlong and whack it with a stick/lightsaber. None of the themes apply to the main character, the one we are supposed to relate to most. As a result, she is a very flat and uninteresting character.

    With respect to the rest of the trilogy, I feel this film harms what was established in the first movie. abrams went in with the idea of creating a mystery box that would intrigue audiences and have them coming back. And while I was critical of the first film, I will admit that he was able to accomplish this. RJ movie went ahead and opened this box, leaving many fans with unsatisfactory answers, and leaving nothing behind to pull people back.

    For me, Lukes story is finished, and feels a good a point as any to step off the SW hypetrain. I hope Disney can make actual good stories for future SW fans. But from the current state it is in and whispers about the upcoming Han Solo movie, I am not holding my breathe.

  • dinodoc

    This is a rewrite a fan did that appeared in my feed. I thought I’d share:

    1)
    Ditch the Vegas Planet dead end, and have Rose tag along with Finn as
    they are dispatched (instead, with a tiny team) to Crait. Which is not
    an old Rebel base, but an old abandoned Imperial base.
    Which Finn can get into using “older codes, but they check out” and he
    needs Rose’s help, because she knows what kinds of Imperial fuel and
    which kinds of Imperial weapons can be quickly adapted for Resistance
    use. DJ the *arms smuggler* is already there, though. And isn’t
    willing to give up his hideout—and cash cow—without a fight. Finn must
    lead the Resistance expedition against DJ’s small army of mercenary
    thugs. Eventually DJ bails out, stating, “I sell stuff to your side
    too, kid. This fight you’ve brought to me, it’s bad for business.” He
    escapes and lives, to return and play a bigger part in Episode 9. Finn
    and Rose return to Organa’s command cruiser—with the goods in tow—only
    to find . . .

    2) Poe Dameron and Vice Admiral Holdo
    in a shouting match over what to do now, as General Organa’s cruiser is
    mere minutes from losing the aft shields. A wounded (but surviving)
    Admiral Ackbar stumbles from the medical bay, upbraiding Dameron and
    Holdo both—about how General Organa would be ashamed to see Resistance
    discipline and chain-of-command so grossly disregarded. He orders the
    two of them to cease fire, and rally the troops—using the weapons and
    fuel provided by Finn, with Rose’s assistance. Holdo will put the
    remaining “brain trust” of the Resistance into the transports for escape
    to Crait, while Ackbar takes sole command of the cruiser, with Dameron
    out in front leading a small squadron of the last snub fighters,
    co-attacking the big Snoke star destroyer. Both of them know it’s a
    suicide mission. Holdo, with a comatose Leia aboard, departs.

    3)
    Leia, who has been in a kind of Force Fugue since being expelled into
    space (after her bridge was hit) experiences a dream-like sequence
    during which she communicates with Luke’s soul, similar to how she heard
    Luke calling her at the end of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. Luke says he has
    turned away from The Force, after ruining Ben Solo, and contributing to
    Ben’s flight to the Dark Side. He is too ashamed to re-assume the
    mantle. Leia begs Luke to come back one more time, and do what a Jedi
    knows must be done. She loves Luke. She forgives Luke. She wants him
    to help her one last time, and possibly help Ben Solo, too. Lest the
    First Order snuff out the Resistance utterly. Luke is inspired, as well
    as humbled. We then see a scene of Luke quickly trimming his facial
    hair, military-short. We also see him using The Force to raise his old
    X-Wing out of the sea, with R2D2 obediently at Luke’s side.

    4)
    Dameron and Ackbar are deeply engaged against Hux and the First Order.
    Kylo Ren orders Hux to ignore Ackbar and Dameron, so as to pursue Vice
    Admiral Holdo, in whose care the “kernel” of the Resistance now rests.
    With fresh fuel and weapons, Ackbar is able to keep Snoke’s
    super-dreadnought occupied, but cannot block the pursuit of Vice Admiral
    Holdo. In desperation, with his ship falling to pieces, Ackbar wishes
    Dameron, “May The Force be with you,” and punches the hyperdrive,
    launching his cruiser into the super-dreadnought like a missile.
    Dameron retreats to cover the fleeing Holdo, with her transports. A
    cloud of angry TIEs is all over them, as they descend to Crait. Into
    this swarm of angry TIEs, the Millennium Falcon appears, communicating
    with Dameron on Resistance bandwidth. Together, Chewie, Dameron, and
    Rey, give Holdo cover while Holdo and Finn land the transports, and flee
    (with Organa in medical stasis) into the old, abandoned Imperial
    fortress

    5) With the Millennium Falcon now badly
    damaged from overwhelming TIE strikes, Chewie is forced to crash-land
    the Falcon at the mouth of the imperial fortress. He and Rey disembark,
    and pursue Finn. Dameron is frantically trying to keep the cloud of
    TIEs busy, while a force of First Order walkers marches on the horizon.
    Severely outnumbered, Dameron concludes he’s not going to survive this
    fight. But just as he’s about to suicide-run one of the walkers, a
    second X-Wing appears. Older, somewhat worn down, but being piloted
    with expert precision. The old X-Wing uses proton torps to disable
    several walkers, while also downing a mess of TIEs, allowing Dameron to
    get his badly-damaged advanced X-Wing out of the fight. Both fighters
    eventually fly to where the Falcon is smoldering, and land. Poe and
    Luke have a moment of mutual admiration—for the fine flying—and then
    Luke tells Poe to go alone into the fortress in pursuit of Rey. “But
    you’ll never escape,” Poe says. “Escape is not my plan,” Luke informs
    him.

    6) The remaining First Order walkers, with
    Kylo’s command shuttle floating among them, close on the abandoned
    fortress. Seeing one man out in front of the old X-Wing—an obedient
    blue-accented droid at the pilot’s side—Kylo orders the walkers to stand
    fast, and the shuttle to land. Kylo stomps down the ramp and walks
    across the salt, to face his old master. They exchange words, about how
    things went wrong back in the Jedi temple. About how Luke did Kylo
    wrong. And about how Kylo did Han Solo and Leia Organa wrong. Enraged,
    Kylo shouts, “Your powers are weak, old man!” And ignites his
    cross-saber. Luke throws off his Jedi robe, revealing the old fighting
    Jedi uniform underneath, and replies firmly, “You’ll find I’m full of
    surprises.” At which point Luke ignites his own saber. The two men
    raise their weapons, as if to strike, and . . . . cut to black.

    THE END

  • Arthfael

    I loved it. It’s very flawed, but makes up for it by reminding us there’s more to jedi-ing than cutting cabbages in half. I think the contrast between this movie and the usual US blockbuster is definitely in favour of the former. EP VIII also significantly questions the validity of the maverick trope American cinema is so in love with. Also loved that Rei is “nobody”, for a democratic culture I have been for a while worried at our inability to produce heroes who are not heirs of some dynasty.

  • phobosftw
    • dinodoc

      I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! #HumbledHamill https://t.co/8ujJfBuEdV— @HamillHimself (@HamillHimself) December 26, 2017

      • phobosftw

        So Kathleen “THE FORCE IS FEMALE YOU A*******” Kennedy and/or Disney `s hotshot lawyers made a phonecall to Hamill telling him to get with the
        program lest he wants lawsuits up the wazoo (for potential loss of revenue).

        I mean get real, listen to what the man`s been telling us, watch the movie – he was right all along, I don`t buy that tweet for one second.

        You might be puzzled by why this tweet was made now – he`s been complaining about the inept writing the whole year, but then when you consider the fact that the Last Jedi`s box office is 42% down at the box office and read upon the fan backlash it all kind of starts to make sense.. do stop me if I`m wrong.

  • ZeeLobby

    These films are pure hot trash (VII and VIII at least). Everytime I see someone say that either has made it into the top 10 best films of all time for them, I truly weep for humanity.

    That said, Rogue One was a solid, if not amazing, film. Hopefully the Solo movie will be likewise. Disney can make good movies, but these are not the good movies you’re looking for…

    • Aurion Shidhe

      Zee, I must respectfully disagree with you on one of your points here. Please note that I am a 100% Star Wars fanboy (I was seven with A New Hope came out) and have only ever been a fan of Star Trek’s TOS (and now Discovery). I have had little appreciation for Next Gen and its derivatives. The JJ-verse version of Star Trek is a flaming dumpster fire IMO. Okay, that’s out of the way…

      I have always felt that Star Wars is grounded in the pulpy fiction genre. Space Opera at its azimuth. Firmly rooted in the 70s and 80s Lucas/Spielbergian realms of Indiana Jones, Willow (which I also hated), and so on. Tons of melodrama and blowing up planets. Star Wars IS spectacle. And it really suffers when it tries to be more than that. I mean c’mon, the heroes are running around with plasma swords that should give the wielders instant 3rd degree burns and cancer by just igniting them. It’s all about the flash and the cool. Weird aliens, “not-moons”, worms living in the vacuum of space, and so on. The characters have only been developed in the EU. And that didn’t start until Zahn was published. The original trilogy was meant to sell action figures to boys my age. Which it did admirably.

      Star Trek, on the other hand, has always been the “thinkers” space opera. Still full of unbelievable tech, but at least that tech is grounded in THEIR consistent universe (JJ-verse being the exception). The stories have generally been about exploration of the human condition (at least the good stories have been). I may not like Star Trek as much as Star Wars, but I have a healthy respect for what Roddenberry tried to accomplish. And I was a fan of the original wagon train to space.

      thank you, sir, for your points and for reading my rant (if you got this far). And I do agree with you that Rogue One was solid. My favorite Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back.

      • ZeeLobby

        Haha. Nah. Well put. And I agree. I guess for me I didn’t really grow up with the original Roddenberry premise, and only occasionally paid attention to it in passing (my parents watched all of the originals religiously). On the other hand I was a young kid when I was first introduced to Luke as a young teen. It was an easily relatable character whose development was easy to follow. He was dealing with young adulting stuff that I could look forward too. Now that I’m older I connect with the modern Kirk’s jaded outlook of the world and exhaustion of the daily grind. Perhaps it is the relatability that makes me enjoy both more than old trek or modern star wars.

        Regardless the new star wars trilogy is just mechanically broken. Plot holes, unnatural decision making, etc. At least the new trek is limited on these. It may be more spectacle than anything else, but there is a plot, and it’s mostly solid, and several of the characters do develop (Spock and Kirk mostly) as it continues. I just find little redeeming about the new SW, and lack of relation just makes it worse.

        But yeah. Rogue One was great imo. It might not have followed the original opera style as much as the other films, but it fit much better in today’s cinema. I’m just not sure Disney had any idea where to take the new trilogy, which is sad because of the sheer amount of quality literature out there they could have sourced a solid plot from.

        Oh well, I’m still excited to see where they take the non-trilogy films.

        • Aurion Shidhe

          I’m interested to see where they take them as well. I would rather have more Rogue One type movies (i.e. previously unknown characters) than them trying to shoehorn backstory into characters that have been explored ad nauseam in volumes and volumes of previously accepted EU stories.

          I also related strongly to Luke in the original trilogy. But mostly as I saw him as a King Arthur analog. Orphan boy gets a magic sword and finds out he’s secretly related to “nobility”. As a blonde adopted boy with a too powerful imagination I so wanted to be that. Except for the whole “nobility” relation being the most powerful mass murderer in the galaxy. 😐

          For me the ultimate Star Trek experience will always be the second movie. And not because of the Khan conflict, but because of the dialog between the Big Three (Kirk, Spock, and McCoy). Don’t get me wrong, the battles between the Enterprise and Reliant are some of my all time faves. But I thought the “human” story was fantabulous. As I’m slipping into middle age I can relate strongly to Kirk being forced to slow down and wear glasses. And also the diabolical effects of “Romulan Ale”.

          Note: I do realize that azimuth was used improperly in my original post. Brain spasm on my part…

  • phobosftw