Op-Ed: The Horus Heresy is Dying – and MUST be Saved

Hi all BBF here with a personal rant of mine.   We need to talk about what is going on with the Horus Heresy game line.

I’m not happy with the direction Forgeworld has taken with my favorite hobby game Horus Heresy (HH) 30k. The past two previous years we got a nice box set of set of plastic crack – two years ago was Betrayal at Calth, last year was Burning of Prospero… this year nothing. Forgeworld has decided to maintain the clunky 7th Edition rule set for HH rather than make the effort to port the game over to 8th Edition and this is a grave mistake.

If you play HH you’re probably aware that the vast majority of players preferred for the game to be upgraded to 8th Edition. There are many good reasons why this is the right course versus maintaining an old rule set. The end result is that that the majority of players have switched back over to 40k and no longer play HH any more. There are still a few small pockets of players stubbornly maintaining that 7th Edition is a superior rule set… a classic example of an ostrich sticking its head very deep into the sand.

Forgeworld used to release new kit for HH in a timely manner on a regular basis but alas no more. The last book to release was Inferno which has many rules errors, none of which has been addressed and on top of that it was a big departure from the classic formula that made HH the great game it was. Inferno released rules for Custodes (properly pronounced Kuh-Stode-Ez not Kus-Toads), Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. The two former armies are totally over the top harkening back to all the reasons why players disliked 7th Edition and Space Wolf players are still waiting for new kit to build their armies.

Really there’s no good reason why developmental resources can’t be reprioritized to get HH back on track again. If you follow HH then you know that the game is literally dying off as I write this article. A year ago HH was the next big thing and there was lots and lots of activity all over the internet with amazing weekly video Battle Reports and lots of new discussion on forums dedicated specifically to this hobby… the excitement was real in a very big way.

Alan Bligh, the main developer for the game, passed away unexpectedly this May which was a really big blow.  Alan was an absolutely amazing person who poured his vibrant energy into the game developing amazing rules for every Space Marine Legion which so accurately portrayed their background and made the game so fun to play. Every Legion was unique. It’s sad to see his beautiful and amazing work go to tatters as it has in the aftermath of his untimely demise.

If you like playing the game with Primarchs – thank 30K for getting us here.

The Horus Heresy story has developed so much of the background for 40k. It providing excellent rules for things such as Primarchs and fully fleshing out the Legions. I remember when I first started playing 40k – Primarchs were discussed as mere dreams – it was 30K that first brought them to life. In my mind a lot of this Horus Heresy passion has carried over to 8th Edition. 30K has an extensive amount of well developed characters which add depth to every army and make the game more fun to play. To me there is no other game that so accurately portrays its armies.

So I’ll close my rant now and move along knowing this truly needed to be said.

~What do you think of the Horus Heresy sticking with 7th Edition, and how can GW recapture its magic.

  • Garr Davies

    I am happy that it stuck with 7th as the game will remain free of aspergers levels of scutiny from the tournament only players. I will continue to enjoy a ruleset that rewards a player who plans successfull outflanks and enjoy narrative campaigns in a well developed setting which I love.

    When I feel like some light refreshement from a pickup game or fancy some tournament play I can simply take my 30k marines and run them as chapter in a game of 8th as well. Our brains can hold the information required to play two gaming systems afterall.

    • Phil Turner

      Exactly, this clown says “everyone wants eighth”. Totally not true. Eighth is a hot mess.

      • JayMan

        I enjoy 8th for what it is, BUT the Heresy game isn’t complete. FINISH the 7th edition rules by knocking out the last 3 legions and then move to 8th if thta’s the plan.

        • Jack Boland

          even so, 8th would need a complete reworking. At the moment, it just doesn’t work for heresy and despite what this author takes as fact, the majority of heresy players dont want that move.

          • marxlives

            I can see that, due to the setting and its focus on Legions, there would be some mechanics that may make 7th a better fit for HH. I can understand the lure but switching to 8th just for the sake of switching to 8th just makes HH a side game. I think both just give players more options. If players want a combo driven game, there is 8th. If they want a classic tabletop wargame where you field armies, there is HH.

            I met plenty of people didn’t like Warmahordes for the fact that it was a combo driven game and not a traditional military strategy sim type of game. Or don’t like Infinity because they want the grand WWI or WWII style of conventional army battles rather than the modern day surgical strikes. Some people don’t like playing Malifaux because they don’t like running a posse who are on the board to complete specific goals rather than annihilate each other.

            I think 7th ed HH allows players to participate in an IP that they love but in the manner that they enjoy. And there is nothing wrong with that.

          • Jack Boland

            100% agreed and really well articulated. HH isn’t about the combos, tricks, or rules. Its about the narrative.

    • Luka Čelan

      I second that… 7th was superior. USR’s were great, they perhaps could have cleaned them up a bit but it was near perfect.

      And as a friend would say, “I’d rather have f***ed up rules than no rules at all”. 8th edition tagline is “It doesnt say anywhere that you can’t”.

      • Azhrarn

        Having read the newly released HH 7th edition rulebook, they have cleaned them up. Or at the very least, completely reworded a ton of them to clarify them to a massive extent. A lot of the ambiguity of the rules disappears in the new rulebook.

      • Hahahaha

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          I’m sorry you felt the need to write this. Hanging around FB 30K forums, very few people want the change you suggest, so please, respectfully, butt out.

      • Walter Vining

        what are you smoking, that was a tag line from 5th on.

    • Jo Ro

      There’s a sequence in one of the latest 30k battle reports that convinced me that the 7th rule system needed to be changed. Check here: https://youtu.be/BBoKLVGu6K4?t=28m57s It’s the Custodes player rolling a combination of rerollable saves with look out sirs thrown in. I do like the positional element like you said but stuff like this makes it not really worth it. Elements like the psychic phase and things like look out sir just made the game so unenjoyable to me. It’s like it grinds to a screeching hold whenever they come up. I get you saying that it should not be 8th edition, but *some* streamlining of the rules would have been welcome. 7th was not a good ruleset overall IMO and while I do love the narrative aspect, it doesn’t make up for the bad rules in all regards.

      • vlad78

        No one said 7th was good. People above say 8th is much too streamlined and applying to HH now would just remove the worth of the previous HH line which is still incomplete.

        Personnaly with a few changes like AA, some changes within the psychic phase (ban of invisibility and game breaking powers), limitation of rerollable saves, limitation of ignore cover rules for long range weapons and flyers, challenges restricted to HQ, removal of superfriends, change of flyer rules, less random charge distance, adding the few things which are great in 8th (unified vehicle/MC profiles, reserve rules, a mix of deep strkes rules netween 7th and 8th, choice of warlord traits, initiative for the charging unit), I think such hybrid would be far superior.

        Neither 7th or 8th are good imho.

    • marxlives

      Understanding 2 different rule sets. Madness. Didn’t you get the memo players must be devoted to only one ruleset. GW wills it. Or there are at least some people out there who believe GW wills it.

    • IronWithin

      I agree completely. I play thousand sons, and 8th has toned down the psychic phase immensely. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed playing 9th so far, it’s quick and easy. But I’ve put time and a lot of money into heresy, it should stay at a advanced level. 8th is aimed at getting new younger players into the hobby, I can’t see many kids pestering mum and dad for Forgeworld prices.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      well said

  • JayMan

    I’m going to guess you haven’t been a big Horus Heresy player. A lot of your comments make it seem so; the majority of Heresy players were indifferent to switching to 8th or keeping it 7th.
    Alan passing away was HUGE. He was the driving force, and without him it’s not easy to just move forward.

    Ultimately, I’d like to see them FINISH 7th edition Heresy by releasing the other legions, and THEN move to 8th.
    That way if my game group likes 7th we have a complete game to play.
    Heresy is not open ended like 40k.
    There’s a beginning and a definitive end.

    • euansmith

      “The Emperor defeated Horus and forced him into the Golden Throne, where the traitor’s endless screams power the Astronomicon.

      “The Emperor then retired to Hive Geriatricus to live out his days in obscurity; enjoying the Tuesday Afternoon Tea Dance, Wednesday Night Bridge with El Johnson, Manus and Alpharius (or is it Omegon?), and the occasional picaresque adventures with his friends Compo and Clegg.

      “Unfortunately, all of this is now about to end, as Antisocial Security is investigating his 10,000 year long claim for Old Age Pension… ”

      From the Secret Diary of Malcador the Sigillite, aged 10,000½


  • Atogrim

    “Really there’s no good reason why developmental resources can’t be reprioritized to get HH back on track again.”

    There is, It’s called 8th Ed. and still needs a lot of work from all the GW crew. You might be surprised but they aren’t thoudands of people.
    After they finished turning around their flagship product they will come back to the HH at some point.

  • Dylan McManus

    I hope it doesn’t die. But honestly GW has been floundering on moving the 30k storyline towards terra for a long time.

    The novels have been a total disappointment for three years if not more, but FW pushing forward with their line was a nice distraction.

    Now even that is dying off.

    I know loosing Alan was a huge blow, and I hope that they recover from it.

    I have an entire BA Heresy army that I am waiting to assemble and paint for when they finally do the Blood Angels some justice and give us a proper book. I really hope to see Emperor’s Angel in resin one day, but I’m starting to think that’s a pipe dream.

    • ZeeLobby

      Now this is what I expected the article to talk about. All of these reasons make sense to me.

    • Youme

      I stopped reading the books around 9 when I noticed they were going sideways instead of forward. That was almost 10 years ago. I stopped in my local GW store and was told they’ve put out nearly 30 more books and still haven’t advanced the story line and finished it? They could have finished it in 12 books and then fleshed out sideways. I probably would have bought more books that way.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. I haven’t read the last 10ish or so, but they really did just try to milk it way too much at this point. There’s so many other cool conflicts and events taht could use some literature behind them. It’s sad that all of BL’s talent pretty much got hung up on HH.

        • Dylan McManus

          I don’t mind the hang up as long as there’s progress. There hasn’t been much progress as of late.

          • Yes, there has. Pharos, The Path of Heaven, Angels of Caliban, Praetorian of Dorn, Corax, The Master of Mankind, The Crimson King, Ruinstorm, Old Earth, they ALL advanced the storyline so that right now, we’re basically hours away from the Siege, with only a few remaining loose threads needing to be tied up before the Siege arc starts.

        • You should read the last 10, because those are pretty much straight to the Siege and include some of the series best.

          It lost some steam around when GW was screwing with how BL existed within the company and put the schedule on hold for almost a year while pushing for them to write more direct product tie-ins, but since then things have picked up exponentially and I wouldn’t be surprised if, at the current pace of releases, the series was over by Christmas 2019, right on target for the anticipated amount of books they mentioned years ago.

          Heck, all up to the Siege was planned out already last year and the Siege is getting at least 3 books, with possible tie-ins to wrap up secondary plotlines.

          They’ve also said that they were considering something like The Beast Arises again, but hopefully with more editorial oversight. So other conflicts aren’t out of the question, and TBA ran alongside the HH anyway.

          We’ve just moved away from BL being tied strictly to GW releases again around when Wrath of Magnus hit, which is why that one didn’t get a novel where the stuff before did. Authors are free to pitch ideas again and the editors seem pretty tolerant at this point. Stuff they wouldn’t have published a few years back is getting made again, and even Dan Abnett is back in full swing. I’d say that, with the Horus Heresy sketched out and being finished sooner rather than later, we’re in for some pretty great, creative stuff again.

      • Dylan McManus

        I agree completely. There have been a few gems in there. They have fleshed out some cool stories, but yes the storyline needs to progress. It’s getting beyond frustrating.

      • The Siege starts at the end of 2018. The series has advanced drastically since about book 19 at the latest.

        The only side-adventures really were novellas or short stories which have almost all been collected in numbered anthologies now, and provide stepping stones for novels that progress things on the grander stage.

        You basically dropped out before Black Library formalized its vision for the series as a whole, before Laurie Goulding came in as an editor to oversee the thing, and instead of individual books, the series started to get told in arcs.

        For reference: The only Legion that really needs a book right now is the Death Guard for their fall to Nurgle on the way to Terra.

        Everything else is in place. The Wolves are confronting Horus in their last outing in the series in a few months, the Raven Guard are out of the picture, the Iron Hands are, the Imperial Fists are shown hours before Horus’ arrival now, the Alpha Legion has made its big play, the Blood Angels and White Scars arrived on Terra, the Webway has fallen and the Emperor has to babysit the Throne, and Vulkan is holding the Gate. Guilliman and the Lion are delayed, the Emperor’s Children are primed for Terra, the Iron Warriors were recalled from Tallarn to be ready for Terra, Beta Garmon is going on but unlikely to see a novel, due to that being the setting for the Titanicus specialist game it appears, and all remaining plotlines are basically ready for the Siege as well, or need to be resolved there anyway.

        And no, they *couldn’t* have finished it in 12 books and then gone sideways. Even now there are some issues with the first dozen books due to ForgeWorld/Alan adding a lot of stuff to Legions, new events popping in etc. You could tell it in those few books only if you abandoned all sense for paced character development. Go straight from A to B and you lose all the beautiful details and processes, diminishing the entire series as a result. This is a galactic civil war with 18 Legions, Imperial Army, dudes on Terra, Daemonic forces and Xenos. You can’t strip it down to the bare essentials and then expect to fill in the gaps without having the entire thing feel contrived and shoehorned in. Heck, a lot of folks already made the argument that they should go back and rewrite the opening trilogy, because it doesn’t hold up as well anymore with its depiction of the Legions and plot hooks, considering all we know now.

        Another argument for why a 12 book series would’ve been terrible is… The Beast Arises. One book a month for a year, bad editorial oversight and the conflict never felt as big as it needed to be, with SO MANY PLOTHOLES and a rushed ending that took the fun out of the entire thing.

        • Cannot wait for the death guard’s fall to be covered

    • Well, the novels had a break for almost a year because of the management changes at GW (where BL almost got fully absorbed by GW and lost its autonomy, basically), but since 2016, they’ve been going straight for the Siege.

      Heck, this advent was full of HH shorts that are direct preparations to Horus arriving. One of them is set HOURS before he’s in system/visible from Terra. The Siege should start towards the end of 2018, with how the schedule is going and what needs to happen just prior to it (Russ vs Horus in Wolfsbane, fall of the Death Guard…). Every novel over the last two years has substantially advanced the series towards the Siege.

      I’d argue that if you think the novels have been a “total disappointment for three years”, you haven’t read any of them lately. A bunch of them were the best in the series to date.

      • Dylan McManus

        Really? Do tell me which ones I should be reading then? The majority of what I have read for years has been totally contrived and done very little to advance the timeline.

        There are some gems in there of course, but they are fewer and far between.

        What novels to you think have been published in the last 3 years that are critical must reads to the storyline?

        Also keep in mind that while some of them have had ten to twenty pages of useful information, that the stories have been lacking so much in quality that it’s been hard for me to justify those ten – twenty pages as worth the effort.

        But I’m curious what you think the must reads are, because I would love to get back into the story.

        • The Master of Mankind as far as the whole Webway Project is concerned.

          Praetorian of Dorn for Terra’s defences and a clash between Dorn and the Alpha Legion.

          The Path of Heaven for the White Scars vs Death Guard and Emperor’s Children, with the Scars struggling to reach Terra somehow.

          Vengeful Spirit for the big Horus power-up that’ll be relevant in the upcoming Wolfsbane, where Russ takes on Horus personally. There are revelations that should be brought up in the final duel as well.

          An argument could be made for skipping the three Salamanders novels and Imperium Secundus, but while they started relatively weak with Vulkan Lives and The Unremembered Empire, follow-ups like Pharos, Angels of Caliban and Ruinstorm would make the entire arc very worth reading, and the recent Old Earth rounds up a couple of plotlines and, again, ties into the Webway War and the Emperor’s goals.

          You could probably skip Garro, though the individual pieces are pretty good, and Tallarn, since that is actually an aside that didn’t end with any sort of bang (though I’ll say that Executioner was a fantastic novella within the setting and without).

          The anthologies War Without End, Eye of Terra, The Silent War and Shattered Legions all add pretty vital tidbits for other novels (Shattered Legions builds up the legend of Shadrak Meduson, which culminates in Old Earth, for example, and The Silent War plays off of some novels while working towards the Siege and Terra’s defences, or develops characters like Sigismund. War Without End collects four previous event anthologies into a massive collection. The stories were often lead-ins to upcoming novels or bridge pieces at the time)

          The problem with recommending just a few novels is, however, that unlike in the early years, most books now are written in arcs and webs of stories tying things together closely. You’d probably struggle reading Angels of Caliban without knowing about the events of Pharos and The Unremembered Empire, and Old Earth is a direct sequel to Deathfire, which followed on from The Unremembered Empire which connected various plotlines from Vulkan Lives, Fear to Tread, The Lion (from The Primarchs), Know No Fear & Mark of Calth, The Crimson Fist (from Shadows of Treachery) etc…

          Books aren’t being written in a vacuum anymore, which enriches the series as a whole but also means that you’re usually better off slogging all the way upwards and splicing short stories in as appropriate. I can just say that the payoff has been pretty great lately and seeing everything leading up to the Siege has been very satisfying.

          • Dylan McManus

            See, I’ve read most of those. I need to read the Praetorian of Dorn and Master of Mankind.

            I think the small nuggets they insert into the storyline are interesting, but it still doesn’t have anything close to the strength that it started with. Nothing at all seems like a leap forward in a way that gets me excited.

            While I realize some of it is interesting, it’s starting to feel like a TV series that is just drawn out way to long. Those tiny little suggestions aren’t going to keep the series going forever, so it’s time they start taking some leaps instead of baby steps.

            You’re right that there is content there, but…

            Also, on a side note Nick Kyme’s treatment of the Salamanders to me is heretical and his writing is so bad that I haven’t been able to come close to getting anything close to motivation to read past Vulcan Lives.

        • Master of Mankind is really good.

  • Axinous

    I’m ecstatic that Horus Heresy is staying with 7th edition. I can’t wait for my Red Book to come in, and see what rules were cleaned up, or eliminated. Yes 7th had problems, but most of that came from formations, codex creep, and a horrible ally matrix.

    For the author, I have played 8th, and have absolutely no love for it. I will not play that rule set again. It is not an enjoyable, or rewarding rule set for me. I do not begrudge you wanting to play it. Forge World keeping Horus Heresy using 7th edition rules was a smart decision. It was a move to not alienate part of its player base. You can use what GW did with Warhammer Fantasy/AoS as reference for that.

    Horus Heresy is not dying off. Its player base has been patiently waiting for the Red Book release, and Horus Heresy Book VIII Angelus due next year. The only thing slowing us down is waiting for new sculpts to be released.

  • Eric Prothero-Brooks

    This author talks about putting our heads in the sand and yet goes on to talk about 30k not being around much any more?

    30k is huge. Not on forums? Because forums are dead, FB is bursting with 30k content as is Instagram.

    There are tons of narrative events around the globe running anywhere from 10-40+ people every month of the year. New podcasts keep popping up for 30k as well and are all as popular as ever. Battle reports and channels continue to come out in steady streams. Maybe try opening your eyes.

    And for the record I like 8th. I like 8th for 40k because 40k was a hot mess in 7th. 30k however is fine. Why? Because people play for the narrative, they play for fun and they are not WAAC players like in 40k. If they are they are quickly checked by their local community.

    • ZeeLobby

      Well. And there’s still restrictive structures to 30K games.

      • O’kana

        Good. You’re playing a fictional Historical style game. We don’t like the idea of just take whatever you want. If a few lazy people decide not to play heresy because they don’t want to learn the community is probably better for it.

        • ZeeLobby


        • euansmith

          I can just imagine it, “It is bad news from the Ardennes, Dwight; von Rundstedt is spamming Veteran SS Panzergrenadier and King Tigers!”

    • Nyyppä

      You don’t play much PUGs if you think that 30k does not have WAACs….

      • Eric Prothero-Brooks

        If your community has WAAC 30k players and you let it to fly then your community is at fault. Mine does not tolerate it. We have very good and solid players in ours who could wipe the floor with people easily enough, but we as a community have set standards and it has made the game better for everyone because of it.

        Something 40k players don’t really understand.

        • Nyyppä

          Just saying that does not make it so. What are the exact restrictions your community has put up to prevent WAAC behavior? Unless you have it down to the level of individual units and their gear you have nothing but good will. Now, assuming that you have not rewritten the whole game (no one has) what are the objective parameters you use to define what a WAAC list is? If you don’t have those you have merely arbitrary judgements and those are really not worth anything.

          You see, the opponent might be the greatest person alive and still bring the cheesiest possible list that is well within reason in terms of what is or is not a fluffy 30k army. If you can’t clearly define the exact reastrictions you are doomed to have people who for some reason take their loss too personally and the result is either that you start to ignore all complaints about WAAC players or you start picking sides based on who you do or don’t like. I’ve seen this happen many times. Hell, I’ve gotten banned from a forum for asking the wrong questions that the local “powers that be” did not like and I have seen it happen to a lot of other people.

          So, do you have exact parameters to make sure that your community does what is right instead of doing what feels justified or are you just hoping for the best and expecting the hope to be enough?

  • Mitchell

    This authors a clown

    • O Rly ?!

      • Pete Croucher

        Pretty much, I mean… Did you read it?

        I know you wrote it, but did you READ it?

        • ZeeLobby

          XD got em!

      • Mitchell

        Do you even heresy ?

  • defensive

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard a 30k player say they wanted it to go to 8th.
    Let alone the “vast majority”

    30k players are generally more hardcore than your average 40k player, so the big mess of rules that 7th is, is more welcomed than the simplified mess of no rules that 8th is.

    • Munn

      30k players are definitely snootier than 40k players are. They also tend to think that #pages in the book = tactical complexity.

      Pretty sure Websters is basically the pinnacle of game design to them at this point.

      • Cergorach

        We’re all playing with toy soldiers…

        • euansmith

          … and making the appropriate noises, “Dakka dakka, woosh, ka-boom!”

          • Walter Vining

            pew pew pew blam OH NO THEY KILLED BILLY!

          • euansmith

            “But Billy is to young to fight! What do you mean, he lied about his age so he could follow me? Noooooo! The humanity!”, add that kind of stuff in, and the gaming experience just got 83% better. 😉

      • ZeeLobby

        Lol. A game where vehicles have facings is more tactically complex though…

        • Nyyppä

          Well, the real difference is that AV. Other than that only planes work differently enough that it’s worth noting.

          • ZeeLobby

            Uh. Facings also affected fire arcs, damage taken, etc. You can remove AV and still have that depth (additional wounds on sides and back, etc.) So it’s def more different than just that.

      • Jack Boland

        you sound smart!

    • orionburn III

      BOLS math:

      Vast majority = 3 guys from your local group

      • Jack Boland

        haha yup, that all love competitive gaming

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean the core of 7th wasn’t really a mess (once you take out the injected apoc rules). It was the armies that became a hot mess during list building.

  • Rob

    For people hitting this author telling him he’s wrong…he isn’t. Since the release of 40k and the announcement about 30k staying 7th 30k has all but completely died in my area…me included. I far prefer 8th to even HH’s improvement on 7th and won’t touch the game again until it goes 8th, if it ever does…and I know a lot of people in my group that felt the same way.

    I am glad Heresy players who wanted 7th got their wish and I mean thst. In happy you have a home and don’t feel cheated and get to keep playing the rule set you love…but I do hope that when they finish they go back and release a version compatible with 8th. Then we can all have what we want.

    • Jo Ro

      Pssst, don’t tell them things they don’t want to hear. This is the internet.

    • Cergorach

      The important thing: YOUR AREA

      A couple of things:
      #1 Alan Bligh died earlier this year, lead writer and game designer for Forgeworld.
      #2 Specialist Games is released Necromunda this year, so that would explain the lack of new HH boxed games.
      #3 Forgeworld is a subsidiary/division/department of Games Workshop, that
      means when they launch a product they want eyes on every department
      listens. That means that the launch of 8th will not be overshadowed by
      FW releases.
      #4 Time was spent making their own core rulebook to replace the 8th edition rules.
      #5 8e is in it’s honeymoon stage, HH is the well aged mistress 😉

      Keep in mind that every HH campaign book costs up to four times what a 40k Codex costs, people wouldn’t be happy if those suddenly went obsolete. Maybe after all the books have been released, 8E has been out for a while FW will release an OPTION army list for 8E for those who want to play in that.

    • Jack Boland

      he is completely wrong. Heresy events across the world are growing massively. Your gaming group dying off should tell you to find a new group. They obviously have bad taste

      • Links ?

        • Jack Boland

          what type would you like? links to polls people have already shown? links to the huge suite of events around the world? links to the incredibly negative reaction to this article from almost every heresy community? Happy to provide. Would love to see yours as well.

          • I’ve already provided a bunch. You don’t have any do you ?!

          • Jack Boland

            haha 1) i didn’t write an op ed piece on a website claiming my opinion as fact, my opinion is opinion. Next time include your “links” in your actual article 2) the links i have are the links people have already sent you, the horus heresy poll, the community response etc. I’m happy to send you the links to the sold out events i’m going to this year. For example, the spartanax sedition in london and the fratcide at taras. Both events sold out within 30 minutes. A dead game doesn’t crash the suppliers website on a new release. 3) Its ok, I understand why you wrote the piece. People don’t have an issue with not liking 30k or understanding the community. People have a problem with you speaking on their behalf, using your own opinion as fact.

          • Phil Turner

            Bang on man. Keep rolling.

    • Hisdudeness

      Did you really just make an account to try and defend the “author”? I mean, you can’t post under a real account?

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      yet at my club people are starting 30K armies as a way of playing 7th. Its all anecdotal.

  • Sumeet Bains

    Great points about production for units for spaces wolves. Waiting nearly a year for any thing is simply unacceptable. The higher ups need to realise that the Heresy is the money spinner for FW. No one actually cares about necromunda frankly. And I’m yet, in all my years in the hobby, encounter a LOTR player or collector. Wolves have a massive following and for them not to have anything is damaging FW’s purse for sure. Some questionable releases this year. They need to realise HH is their main focus.

    • Cergorach

      Sorry, but Blood Bowl sells very well in plastic. Necromunda hasn’t been out that long to base any assumptions on.

      The problem is that resin generates a lot of revenue, but costs a ton to make. Plastic has a high upfront cost, but requires very little money after that. So while the HH resin products might generate a ton of revenue, profits might not be that great. Necromunda is plastic and print products, and while producing/printing those might cost money, they cost very few internal resources after they have been initially designed. Writing thick campaign books also isn’t cheap.

      What I don’t understand is why GW/FW hasn’t released a plastic version of the Deimons Patern Rhino. That this is easily usable by both 30k and 40k players and would save a ton of resources making parts for the basic transport in 30k…

    • stinkoman

      you would think FW profits mattered, but they just doubled the points for 8e for a lot of the staple FW large models. Making them unusable unless you are using power levels (which i have still yet to experience since 8th dropped) .

      • Severius_Tolluck

        It’s all about that open play / narrative play they want you to play, versus the matched… But we can’t help ourselves and prefer matched play. It was their way of listening to the masses as people are still under the impression if at thing is FW it is magically more powerful then anything mainline. Since the rules now say you can take FW in mainline games, the only way to restrict it, is by price gouging.

        • stinkoman

          yeah, it’s also evident by the apocalypse rules in CA being only power levels. the points doubled but the PL stayed the same. that shows they intended those models for open/narrative play and not matched play. but it kind of stinks for those of us that like to play matched play with titans, sub apoc size.

          Tourneys already had a rule to govern thier use by limiting the PL of any single unit. which i thought was a decent fix for tourneys. as it stands now, i have a tau’nar and warhound unbuilt that im probably going to sell now. puts a damper on any future FW purchases from me.

    • 415Native

      “No one actually cares about necromunda frankly.” That is amazingly inaccurate. Necromunda was a beloved game and is much easier for new/lapsed players to enjoy with the low model count. Every 40k player I know is excited about its return.

      On LOTR, you are correct. I’ve never seen a model outside of a GW store. Its bizarre that FW keeps releasing content for it.

      • euansmith

        I guess that there is still an ongoing cost to the LoTR license, so any money they can get back is a bonus. The minis are very nice; though I think it is a shame that they went with 25mm instead of heroic 28mm.

  • Aura1

    The Horus Heresy *was* Alan Bligh. Of course it’s slowed down. He didn’t just die, he was very sick for a very long time and regardless of what he pushed on through, terminal cancer isn’t going to be an ideal time to work at your peak. That said, he’d been working with Black Library authors on aspects of the forthcoming books for years and I imagine they’re slowly piecing together what they can do with the battle for Terra culmination. I don’t know a single 30K player who wanted to port to 8th, even those that are loving 8th rules in 40K. HH didn’t need streamlining as we’re dealing with pretty similar forces facing off and the granularity of 7th allows some distinctions between the Legions. Yes, absolutely, 7th has MAJOR issues but they are also what the whole, very expensive HH format is based on. HH still makes its money. It was never overtaking 40K as it’s based in Forgeworld, home of prices that appeal to hardcore, well employed people only. The fact that 40K is desperately porting in all the forces from 30K and bringing Primarchs back should give you a hint that 40K is feeding off 30K’s success.
    As someone else said in these comments, we’re not stupid people. We can play two rulesets for two different games. The newly revised rule set for 30K apparently cleans up a lot of the junk from 7th and keeps the game granular. It’s almost exclusively narrative campaigning in the HH scene, anyway. It’s not tournament style in the main. 40K is getting some deserved revival with the play faster 8th edition and new units but it’s a separate game. Just because they have space marines in, the separation has always been there… it’s just more profound now.

    • orionburn III

      What kills me is that it was said early on that 30k was intended to be the “upper tier” of gaming. They never expected it to be as big as 40k. How many articles on BOLS said that exact thing – AoS was more of a lower priced/simpler entry game into the GW world. 40k would be the bread and butter. Then 30k would be the elite/more in-depth rules game.

      • ZeeLobby

        It was mentioned at least 50 times. I would never expect a BoLS writer to remember these things though.

        • orionburn III

          Even if they authored the article…

        • Cergorach

          Yeah, the streamlined that as well. Type drek => publish 😉

  • Fabio Angel Figueroa

    prefer it still being in 7th. 8th is fun but its basically AoS 2.0 which I wouldn’t want all 3 games using basically the same rules. It would get boring real fast when everything feels essentially the same which is how I feel about AoS and 8th right now and is why I just play AoS. With that being said, however I wouldn’t mind being able to take the rest of my custodes toys or my heresy era primarchs to stomp out some people in 8th but in the long run I’d rather play a revamped 7th ed HH.

  • Carey_Mahoney

    That guy wants to sell his opinion as fact. Totally not cool.

  • Sumeet Bains

    My previous post seems to have gone missing. But I would like to state again. This article does not reflect the opinion of the wider HH community at ALL. 90% of HH players want the game to stay in 7th or improved version of this ruleset. Social media groups will confirm this is the case in over whelming numbers. Speaking as a member of a very large London base s Heresy group. None of us like 8th edition. HH is a narrative based game for the most part as it has been pointed out earlier by some chaps in the messages below. 8th simply cannot cater to that. It’s over simplified and has zero immersion for the player.

    • ZeeLobby

      Well put.

      • So his opinion is more valid ?

        • euansmith

          Nope 😀

        • ZeeLobby

          From my experience with the 30K community it definitely sounds like what I’ve been hearing and reading since 8th dropped, but we all live in our bubbles.

  • Graham Roden

    8th edition can be brought in as a supplement, it’s relatively easy to bolt on the core unit rules and then have 18 sub sections dedicated to each legion.

    They have however dropped a clanger by not taking the existing two boxes, re packaging them without the cardboard irrelevance and instead including the age of darkness rule book and some rules for the troops in the box.

    You try and explain to someone who wants to get into 30k that they need to buy a £100 boxed game, throw out everything but the miniatures, spend £40+ postage on a rule book, extras on blast templates just to get their foot in the door.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      they probably spent quite a few thousand on the new version of 7th and they want to earn that back. Maybe they’ll make it free/low cost eventually, but I’m just glad they have produced the new rulebook at all.

  • orionburn III

    I’m going to try and offer some sincere constructive criticism here. What is it with BOLS and assuming the entire gaming community feels the same way as a handful of people do within your local group(s)? I understand this is an op-ed piece, but many of your claims are unsubstantiated. Do you actually have any evidence to back up your claim that only a “few small pockets of stubborn players” want to keep the 7th edition rules? I don’t even play 30k and I know that the majority of the base wanted it to stay in 7th ed rules. Yes, a large part of that is due to not invalidating hundreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of books that they’ve purchased in the past few years. You however choose to insult that base and say that they’re merely sticking their head in the sand. This is exactly like the article from 1-2 weeks back that claimed “nobody uses tactical objective cards” and then the comments section was filled with people saying that they use them on a regular basis. Now who has their head in the sand? You honestly remind me of the owner of my FLGS. He won’t allow Forge World models to be used in store tournaments. Mainly because (a) he can’t sell them in his store so he doesn’t want them in his tourneys and (b) he is still under the mindset that most of the community doesn’t like FW models and feels that they’re all broken. He is so disconnected with his own store base that he doesn’t realize that 80% of us play with FW models on a regular basis, and despite all of us saying so he sticks to Point B. That’s what this article feels like.

    Secondly, this really does come off as a spoiled child’s rant. Yes, you got two box sets of plastic figures, but now that’s not good enough. As you said the loss of Alan is a huge blow to the company & game. It is extremely difficult for any business to get back on track after a loss like that. It can takes months to find a proper replacement in a business and get things moving forward again. In time the game will move forward again. This year was obviously all about 8th. Why flood the market at this point? Be thankful that they even did plastic models to begin with.

    On a side note it also comes off as insulting that you’re trying to correct people on the proper pronunciation of Custodes when 99% of the articles on this site are riddled with errors. I’d try to say what kind of errors they are but the G word isn’t allowed.

  • Willard Foxton

    “The vast majority of heresy players want the game upgraded to 8th”

    Absolute bollocks. How can you possibly know? I doubt even FW has a way of tracking that opinion. Bell of Lost Souls should be embarrassed to publish something which is pure opinion masquerading as fact.

    From my experience as part of several big heresy communities there’s a fairly even split between people who would have preferred 8th and people who wanted to stick with 7th, but people love the setting and are happy to play either.

    Let’s try to apply some journalistic rigour here; if what you were saying was true, there would be huge demand for the 8th ed fan conversions; the download numbers for the most 8th conversion is in the high hundreds, a tiny fraction of the player base downloading it, let alone playing it, and zero events in 8th.

    From that, the people refusing to play 7th at all seem very much in a tiny minority – and the impact of 8th 40k has been huge across the warganing industry, with both Mantic and Privateer suffering big sales hits.

    My sense is heresy by sticking to 7th is shedding casual players rather than people invested in the setting

    • Koonitz

      Fair warning on the download numbers of the 8th Ed fan conversions. I didn’t even know they existed until I read your post and, even now, STILL don’t know where to get them.

      They aren’t doing a good job of spreading the news, which will dramatically reduce the number of downloads. Perhaps they should do more communicating in a wider circle of locations.

  • markdawg

    The simple fact is 7th ed was a pile of guano, sticking with it will kill your game. All you guys that say finish it out with an old stinky rules set are wrong.

    What FW should do if they want to have a different rules set from 40k is actually be different!

    Write a brand new fresh rules set that is innovative fresh and helps them do what HH needs to do. Also they should drop IGOUGO like a hot rock because it’s a terrible way to design a war game.

    • ZeeLobby

      7 Ed was a pile of guano because of allies, codec creep, and formation/detachments. All issues 30K has attempted to avoid. Very little was wrong with 7th edition core rules (well besides bad writing which is still present in 8th).

      • Inferno

        • ZeeLobby

          It def was. Again the core rules were fine though. 8th is just Humpty Dumpty dumb. And it still has all the issued I listed above. People are just being willfully ignorant at the moment.

          • 8th fixed all the problems. What issues do you have with 8th ?

          • ZeeLobby

            It lost most of it’s tactical depth. No templates, no terrain, no facings. I mean it’s great for pushing around a bunch of stuff and rolling buckets of dice, but that’s about it. It basically removed a lot of obstacles/considerations to avoid spamming OP units.

            It also kept all the restriction breaking detachment options which basically make it a nightmare to balance or have close games in. I mean 40K has always been a min/max-ing mess, but 6th and 7th basically created the “take anything you want and get bonuses while doing it” system, that was carried over into 8th. I mean anyone who looks at the dark reaper spam lists and thinks 8th is in a good place is deluding themselves, lol. I mean it’s a unit that’s not even that broken, but is completely broken by the core rules.

            I dunno, maybe in a year or two it’ll be a more interesting game to play, but having tried it many times since launch, it’s just very dull. People who play other systems realize this pretty easily. Only those who rarely leave GW’s side seem to be thoroughly enjoying it (though there’s even been fallout locally there).

          • To me it’s much more tactical getting rid of many needless rules. People rolled buckets of dice in seventh edition. There is more freedom now to create armies that match the background such as a SM first company and still be Battle forged. Also GW development has taken a very active role with FAQs and the new CA. It’s my favorite edition by far and I’ve been playing for over 25 years now. You come across as having a chip on your shoulder tbh.

          • ZeeLobby

            No chip. Just miss the depth. So they’ve replaced buckets of dice + rules that made positioning important with just buckets of dice. Yeah. That sounds accurate. Not sure how facings, templates and advanced terrain rules are “needless”. Those are things required of like any basic wargame (successful ones anyway). “Freedom to create armies” always existed by the way. You could always break army construction rules with the agreement of your opponent. What we lost was any structure for promoting balanced diverse competitive games. Which is sad. I’ve also played for 25 years and 8th is the first edition I’ve considered skipping altogether. It’s cool that theyr more “active” with FAQs now, but they’re really just attempting to Nerf a bunch of units made OP through shoddy core rules. If only the core rules of 8th were solid, we’d have a much better game in 8th.

          • Nothing you’ve said is anything specifics just generalizations. : (

          • ZeeLobby

            Lol. Ok. If you can’t infer meaning from what I put I have to really doubt that you’ve ever played 40K. Way to wave that white flag though rather than defending anything (” it’s too hard for me to think” defense, classic)

      • markdawg

        Challenges look out sir all sucked as well same with the magic phase. Phases suck. Letting an entire are move shoot and assault before you get to move a model sucks.

        7th ED was really bad in so many ways I don’t think you could list them all. They should move away from it ASAP.

        • ZeeLobby

          I mean phases still exist in 8th. And honestly editions before 6th and 7th handled them better. I mean alternating activation would be the best change, but we’re still not there yet.

    • Jack Boland

      40k 7th ed was terrible. It fostered a terrible rule set and worse community, which spurred the childrens edition. 30k 7th was never a problem. Was it perfect? no. Was it a fun, competitive game system that allowed for narrative gaming and is widely accepted by the heresy community? yes.

      • There’s lots of issues regarding 30k and 7th they just aren’t as bad as it was with 8th.

  • Craig Biddulph

    I am more than happy to stick to 7th Ed. I have no interest in a forced switch to 8th Ed. I’ve played 2 games of 8th Ed, and that’s enough for me.

  • Drpx

    But I don’t like playing the game with Primarchs. Also, never seen a game of 30k yet despite everyone telling me how great marines-only FW circle jerk is.

    • ZeeLobby

      Most 30K games I’ve seen don’t use the primarchs (there are at least restrictions and such in 30K). That said, every Ultramarines army I see has Guilliman. Just wait, 40K will soon be the game of primarchs.

      • Jack Boland

        I agree. Its also about talking with your opponent to design a game that both of you will enjoy. If you dont want primarchs, just say no primarchs. I know this is a new concept for WAAC 40k players, but in heresy, its nothing new.

    • Craig Biddulph

      30k is not a Marine only circle jerk. Militia (of a great many stripes), auxilia, mechanicum, Knights, Custodes, Sisters.

      • phobosftw

        So.. imperium only circle jerk?

        • dinodoc

          Horus Heresy.

      • Jack Boland

        yeh, its just ignorance mate. Obviously has never even looked into 30k as this argument is about 10 years old.

      • Drpx

        Power armor spam.

        • Craig Biddulph

          Yeah, there is lots of power armour. There is also:

          Pariah Power Armour
          Artificer Armour
          Void Hardened Power Armour
          Tartaros Terminator Armour
          Cataphractii Terminator Armour
          Indomitable Terminator Armour
          Scout Armour
          Carapace Armour
          Void Hardened Carapace Armour
          Flak Armour
          Sub-Flak Armour
          Lorica Thallax
          Knight Armour

          This is just the stuff that’s named!

    • Jack Boland

      I would probably experience something before condemning it like you’ve just done. 30k has many factions and your ignorance of them kinda makes your point completely invalid.

      • Drpx

        But they’re all marines.

        • Onlinemph

          Are the mechanicum marines? The solar auxilia? The Imperial Militia and Cults? Custodes?

          Come on dude.

        • Jack Boland


    • Hisdudeness

      So why are you here making a comment about a game you don’t play or like?

  • Stormwolf

    Staying with 7th shows a lot of respect for all the players that bought the highly expensive black books at FW. I like the possibility we can play both. 7th for 30k, 8th for 40k. Unification of everything into 8th is noy necessary at all.

    • noy ??

      • Apocryphus

        I wouldn’t choose a small mispelling to nitpick while there are plenty of errors in your article. If you’re going to troll, don’t make it so easy for people to troll you back.

        • I am published and have patents. I’ll write however I please.

          • Apocryphus

            Not impressed, try harder.

          • F O

          • Apocryphus

            Touched a nerve there. 😉 Doesn’t feel so great, does it?

          • ^^|^^

          • O’kana

            Yeah this exchange right here. I am totally ok with never seeing you across the table from me. Stick to the WAAC douches in 40k

          • Ben

            Do you recognize how you come off “defending”your article by writing in the comments. You come across as a thin skinned narcissist who can’t handle other people’s view point. If your going to write an opinion base with no sourced facts, expect people to tear your article to shreds. So in short, grow up and put your big boy pants on..

          • Crablezworth

            my mom says I’m cool

      • Craig Biddulph

        What a see you next Tuesday.

  • Dan Dusek

    8th is about doing some math (most damage done and taken per points spent), plopping 3 colors on a model and running your tanks up the board backwards. It does not have the finesse and tactics that HH games deserve.
    And having the FW site break on Christmas morning due to the HH V1.0 book dropping (unexpectedly even) seems to greatly refute your comments that HH is dying and that the majority of the players want 8th. Go listen to some podcasts and follow the community before you blather on about nonsense you are wrong about.

  • ZeeLobby

    The only people I know who want 30K to go to 8th are people who got tired of the horribly imbalanced 7th edition of 40K and jumped ship to the correctly restricted and structured 30K 7th. They bought a bunch of resin crack, but didn’t really care about the point of HH to begin with. Then a new edition of 40K drops (with the same issues as the past edition) and their kneejerk reaction is to want to play all that expensive resin they bought with the new rules cause GW has convinced them new rules = better rules, regardless of how much depth the new rules lack, or how non-restrictive they’ve basically become (again).

    Anyone I know who enjoyed 30K before these events is happy with the depth of 7th and honestly excited that FW is writing a better version of that ruleset. Another reason, the $100s of dollars spent in books that they don’t want to see unnecessarily invalidated.

  • Erich Schoenholtz

    Destroy the past…kill it if you have to. I heard that somewhere once. LOL.

    • phobosftw

      Sounds like a great way to destroy your brand/profits l, to me 😉

    • euansmith

      It’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.

      Wise words from a wise man 😉

  • Dimitri Harkov

    I certainly am happy HH stayed with 7th and it’s also certainly neither dead nor dying. More to the contrary. Ever since the release of 8th we more or less switched to HH exclusively.

    Sure, 7th has its flaws and IGOUGO is pretty outdated. But 8th… it’s just no wargame any more.

    • ZeeLobby

      It really isn’t. Which is sad. It’s def lost what it had from the very beginning.

  • euansmith

    “f you play HH you’re probably aware that the vast majority of players preferred for the game to be upgraded to 8th Edition.”

    Citation needed.

      • euansmith

        Unless I’m reading it wrong, there are 12 comments on that page, and not all of them seem wholeheartedly in favour of a change from 7th to 8th.

      • euansmith

        Does a set of fan made rules really support your argument? Does this mean that the existence of the 9th Age means fans really want to play WFB instead of AoS?

        • dinodoc

          In their defense, it is a cool site: http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/

          They even suggest alternative miniatures too.

          • euansmith

            I was impressed with it too. I love it when folk take control of their hobby like that. I wish them all the best.

          • dinodoc

            The amount of effort put into the army books is amazing.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean cool site. Def. Doesn’t somehow prove that people overwhelmingly want 8th 30K. I normally wouldn’t laugh BBF out the door, but I’ve overwhelmingly heard and read that people would like it to stay in 7.i mean at best you might be able to argue a 50/50 split.

          • dinodoc

            I didn’t mean to suggest it did. I just took the opportunity to post the link as I liked the site

          • ZeeLobby

            It is pretty sweet.

          • euansmith

            Oh, and 9th Age are pretty darn mint too 😀 😀 😀

        • More people are playing HH using alt rules.

          • euansmith

            There you go again. 😉

            I’m not having a go at you, I just genuinely would like to see some sources. I’ve got no dog in this fight, as I’m more of a One Page Rules kind of guy; but you sound so sure of your position, that I’d like to see the proof. It would be interesting to know if interest in HH has fallen off or swapped to another set of rules, or what ever else might have happened.

            Had you just said, “In my experience, people want HH to swap to 8th Edition.”, then that would have been fine without anything to back it up.

            Generally I assume that people have forgotten to prefix their internet comments with “IMHO”; and I usually start mine with something similar, like “I think…” or “I feel…” or “I like…”.

            In the same way I tend to secretly reply with…


            Sorry if I’m seeming like a git.

          • I’m done with you troll face.

          • Apocryphus

            Says the person with a literal troll face avatar.

          • orionburn III

            lol…I can’t tell if his post is a troll post or if he’s actually calling one of the nicest guys around the comments section a troll.

          • Apocryphus

            I don’t think there’s a single thing on this page written by BBF that isn’t meant to be trolly. 😛

          • ZeeLobby

            Hopefully the article is as well.

          • euansmith

            Aw, shucks, thank you.

            I know I can be annoyingly tangential, so I’m more than ready to cut someone some slack if they think I am being trolly.

            Man, I’m going to have to use that quote again for the second time this week…


            For a disgraced comedian, he does make a useful point.

            I try to remain aware that I know nothing about people on the Internet and try not to assume the worst of them. Try.

          • O’kana

            Citation needed

          • Craig Biddulph

            Black Blow Fly: Being as 30k has been my primary wargame since book 1 dropped, and the only one I’ve played for more than a year, I know dozens of 30k players. I don’t know ANY that are playing with alternative rules. Can you provide a source? I know there is a fan project on the Heresy30k forum, but I have never seen anybody actively playing it.

    • Alan Bligh was planning to upgrade HH to 8th edition.

      • euansmith

        Citation needed 😉 All that I can find is people stating this without quoting their source.

      • Jack Boland

        trolling a beloved, dead man. grow up.

        • For one thing he said so at a weekender event.

          • Jack Boland

            hahah I was there. No he did not.

          • Your word means nothing liar.

          • Jack Boland


          • Craig Biddulph

            I was there too. He did not say that.

          • Hisdudeness

            He actually said the exact opposite.

    • ZeeLobby

      It’s his own head cannon.

  • Price Vanderburg

    Man the comments in this thread cement why I’d never touch HH with a 10 ft pole.

    • Jack Boland

      yes, disagreement, what a terrible thing!

      • Price Vanderburg

        Nah my guy – it’s the horrifically toxic attitude that 30k exudes. You’re a pretty great example if you look at how many times you’ve posted in the comments on this thread. I think everyone is pretty clear here that you like 7th rules for HH.

        Alternately the author being called a paid schill is pretty off putting. The general level of hobby tribalism in regards to using this thread to discuss how much people don’t like 8th isn’t great either.

        HH is interesting but it honestly has one of the most toxic fan bases I’ve ever been exposed to.

        • Jack Boland

          Haha mate, that just shows you haven’t actually experienced it. And i’m bored, so sue me?

          What people don’t like, hence the extremely negative reaction to this article, is treating an opinion as fact, as this author has done. I would actually give heresy a try before you condemn the community.

        • I really think it has a lot more to do with the author than the topic. He’s been doing this in one form or another for a while and recently on this very topic he’s posted on at least one forum I’m on and a FB group I’m in for local gamers. This has gone on for roughly a month, I’m not going to go back and check for dates, I’m generalizing a bit. I’ve blocked in two places I visit because he had really irritated me. I’m here for the comment section. I will say He had improved a bit this year. He posted some battle reports that were nice to read. But he likes to troll as far as I can tell.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah… Nothing in this section really has to do with the 30K community. It’s more a blog writer stating opinion as fact. Everyone should be upset with this.

          • Price Vanderburg

            You sure none of it has to do with the 30k community? I pulled this quote from the comments section.

            ” It will continue to distinguish the game as separate from 40k and allow it to maintain it’s exclusive and elite feel.”

          • Drops the mic

    • O’kana

      You won’t be missed

      • Price Vanderburg

        A true ambassador for your hobby I see.

  • Jack Boland

    this author is a complete joke, as is this website.

  • Damir Setanta

    What a horrible propaganda article. The author clearly has no idea what he is writing about. Nobody in their sane mind would trade HH for the idiotic ruleset 40k sports with the 8th edition. This is truly pathetic and I hope the editors keep folk like these on a tighter leash since it’s really a negative aspect of the hobby to have paid schills test the waters for future GW experiments.

  • dinodoc

    “If you like playing the game with Primarchs – thank 30K for getting us here.”

    What if I don’t like it?

    • Jack Boland

      then dont play with them?

    • Then don’t play them

  • Jack Boland

    “In my mind a lot of this Horus Heresy passion has carried over to 8th Edition.”

    Someone give me some of this guys drugs, he’s obviously high as a kite.

  • Dulahan

    Still another echo to the choir of wanting it to remain 7th. NOT been happy with 8th, and 7th’s main issues were largely not so bad in Heresy, given the armies were inherently more balanced (compared to the 40k era that is – yes, there are some exceptions like Thousand Sons – but even those got fixed a bit by the removal of Invisibility!)

    • 8th is great.

      • Dulahan

        I’ve played dozens of games of it by now, and honestly, I think they went too far in simplifying, and it’s got some major issues (Particularly Mortal wounds!). It’s got things it did right, like weapon stats. But in general, I find 7th to be the far more enjoyable rules set. You really can simplify too much.

        • Mortal wounds is one of the Great things about 8th – there is nothing unkillable any more now.

    • What don’t you like about 8th ?!

  • Joshua Jenkins

    As a high school English teacher, this is an embarrassing article. Unsubstantiated claims, horrific sentence construction, it’s a complete mess. Beyond the obvious demand for content, why the hell was this ever allowed on this site?

    • The author has an advanced degree in engineering multiple patents and has published all over the world.z

      • Apocryphus

        Doesn’t make the author flawless 😉

      • And I cook some great lasagna, but sadly that doesn’t have any bearing on my novel reviews. Unless, of course, I commit heresy by spilling sauce on a page, which I’d never do.

    • Jack Boland


    • orionburn III

      You need to ask that question 95% of the time around here…lol

      • euansmith

        Do you? Am I doing Internet wrong? Will #13 leave me speechless?

    • ZeeLobby

      Gosh. Don’t read the rest of the articles here. It only ever goes downhill. The comment sections are pretty good though.

      • orionburn III

        This is a great screen cap for when they shove another “the gaming community needs to be more inclusive” article down our throats to remind them that they resort to as much name calling when their opinion gets challenged.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I don’t think there’s any real consistent vision at BoLS. I mean I don’t think half the writers even talk to each other. It’s more just a bunch of badly written opinion pieces.

          • I mean, especially in terms of lore stuff, it doesn’t seem like there’s anybody really involved with either 40k or AoS at this point. Let alone HH.

            You’d think that a bunch of nerds working together writing articles for a reasonably large fan portal would chat and share excitement about new developments and read the fiction and what not, rather than posting BIG REVEALS JUST IN! articles about stuff that’s been in the Codex for the faction for 3 editions.

            I’m just not seeing the enthusiasm for the setting or the hobby. It’s only ever about the tournament bubble, centered almost exclusively on the USA.

            I mean, would it have hurt them to say, hey, Black Library has an advent calendar going on again this year, the 5th year or sth now, how about we don’t just post articles about the releases two days late, but actually *read the stories* and post our opinions, because we actually enjoy 40k/HH/AoS and want to know more about it than the raw stats and loopholes to exploit? It feels pretty sterile to me and doesn’t reflect the community well at all, no matter how I look at it.

            All this talk of inclusivity with occasional shaming of the community while their purview is so utterly limited and shallow…

          • euansmith

            Is Lexicanum accurate? I only ask as it is my main source of 40k Fluff.

          • Accurate? Yes. Lexicanum is pretty strict about sourcing, or at least it was when I contributed to the German one forever ago. However, they’re seriously behind on a LOT of things. They barely manage to cover the novels anymore, for example, let alone short stories. A lot of articles of popular characters aren’t even updated with more recent art or anything.

            So, while accurate, it lacks depth these days and feels way behind.

          • euansmith

            Thank you.

    • If I was you I’d be ashamed to admit you are a teacher bruh.

      • So… ad hominem now? That’s pretty low, don’t you think?

        • Apocryphus

          Wounded animals lash out at their attackers when they know they are defeated.

          • Apparently they also thumbs-up their own comments.

          • Apocryphus

            Well, if no one else will…

        • I was being honest.

  • Hisdudeness

    “Vast Majority”…

    • euansmith

      Fake voters, bused in over the state line. 😉

      • lol

      • You haven’t added anything of real value to the discussion.

        • euansmith

          What discussion? You stated your unsupported opinion as fact and then take umbrage when asked for some evidence. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, and if you have any actual, solid evidence to support your contention I would be interested to see it. There seems to be so little known about the health of the hobby, I would be thrilled to see some concrete figures.

          In my defense, I have provided clicks, likes, replies and all the other markers of Internet usage that BoLS requires.

          I wish you a Happy New Year and much hobbying fun.

          • You are trolling.

          • euansmith

            Nope, I am seriously interested.

          • Me too. I’ve been reading through all the comments up to this point and still not seen proper evidence to support the author’s statements. Wild conjecture at best. I have, however, seen evidence to the contrary.

            There’s no real discussion happening from what I’ve seen. There’s only claims being made and refuted, while the “opposition” is mostly centered on “no u” tactics and disparaging the HH/30k community at large regarding hygiene and supposed elitism.

            I’d like to see some stats, community-wide polls that run for more than 3 hours and attract two dozen people, and some solid arguments to support one’s view on why ditching 7th would be a good idea, when HH works on a different dynamic from 8th as it is.

            Heck, BoLS HAS the audience to lead the charge and put up some polls, whether automated via SurveyMonkey or similar or via write-in comments or somesuch. They could keep it open for a month and draw their conclusions the next. Might even be interesting to read as an article, unlike the usual reposting drivel.

          • euansmith

            Hey BoLS Polls sounds like a neat idea; it even rhymes! I wonder what the traffic on this site is like. I see the same names coming up again in the comments, but I assume that there are people who come here to read the articles and not comment. GW ran their poll recently. Have they posted the outcome or is it still ongoing?

          • I remember the GW poll. I told them to let Peter Fehervari write more novels on whatever he wants because that man’s a genius, and that I was devastated by losing the Old World. No results that I’ve seen yet, though. Will probably take a while to sort through, if they do it properly.

            I’d argue we’re the vocal minority who give enough of a damn about the hobby to want to chat about it online. The silent majority isn’t to be underestimated, though. They just don’t want to get into internet arguments or passively consume articles and all. Once in a while one of them will make a Disqus or forum account to say something specific in reply to an article or comment and then often keep going from there.

            I’d say that the active participation rate is likely similar to Youtube, where you, simplified, have 10% as many views as subscribers, 10% as many thumbs up/down as views, and 10% as many comments as thumbs. Sometimes comments and thumbs blow up over very controversial topics, but the dropoff is pretty hard.

          • Can’t really see it tbh. Do you even play HH ?

          • euansmith

            Nope. But I am interested in the fluff and general hobby stuff. I come to BoLS to read about it.

            I enjoy reading the latest abomination from the Goatboy Cheese-Spam Factory and drooling over his painting skills.

            I read Pimpcron (lord, I do dislike that name) and Tore Bolhøj for the giggles; though with Emperor’s Beard, the humour is genrally bitter sweet, as, I think, the grim dark should be.

            Mayhems Muse’s posts have peaked my interest in cosplay and introduced me too some new materials that might be useful in terrain making.

            I enjoy Mars Garret (did he used to be Hacken Slash?) previews of up and coming TV and Film.

            JayArr and Adam Harry’s more wide ranging hobby stuff is informative and covers things I would otherwise miss.

            And, even though I see Tommy Hovind Kristiansen’s amazing models on Ammobunker, it is great to view them here too.

            I really, really enjoy Matt Sall’s informative Popular Mechanics articles.

            And, course, there is Tabletop Fix. Though I visit his page everyday, Friday, wouldn’t be Friday without the round up of amazing releases from outside of GW.

          • Don’t forget the Mengel Reviews, because we all need some 5/5 positivity about things in our lives.

          • euansmith

            Boy, can he paint!

          • I figured you don’t as your comments has shown.

          • Seriously you not added anything valuable to this discussion.

          • Craig Biddulph

            Neither have you, Black Blow Fly. 🙂

          • Ben

            Wth is your freaking problem? My five year old is more self aware and better behaved than you…are you really so insecure about your articles “facts” that you have to dive into the comments section and troll one of the more positive social commenters? BOLS ownership should be looking at this guys toxic handling of feedback and slot some one with a thicker skin…

    • dinodoc

      To be fair, it would be cool to have crossover battles between 30 and 40k.

      • It was but there needed to be some kind of limitations put in place on the 40K armies to balance it out.
        I’m sure 7th edition books can be bought for a reasonable price second hand now.

    • euansmith

      I like the way that you account picture appears to be using his hands to show just how vast the majority is.

  • I like 8th edition for the same reason I like AoS. Orcs.7th is I guess fine enough for 30K as far as I care. I’d still prefer nether 7th or 8th. I’d like something else for 30K but 7th will due.

    • euansmith

      You have won me over with the best argument ever; Orcs.

      • It’s what I do. lol

      • dinodoc

        Orcs don’t exist in 40k though

        • That’s enough out of you smart boy.

        • euansmith

          Da “c” is silent, an da “k” is invisible, and da “s” is pronounced “z”, but dey is still green-skins an dats what counts.

          • Some one knows a little too much….
            I Think it’s time for you to head off to see Da Dok about dat…

        • Orrucks

    • dinodoc

      Do you play FW’s new LOTR game too?

      • Sadly no. I hardly get to play now days. 3 games is about the maximum I can remember most of the rules for. I have heard good things about the LOTR. Wish I had the opportunity.

      • euansmith

        Does it use the same turn sequence as the old one (player one moves, player two moves, everyone fights)? I wish that 8th Edition had adopted that.

  • Monkeybrains

    I’m indifferent to which rule set they use, being armies comprised of mostly marines with the basic marine statline, there is an inherent amount of balance that no amount of shoddy rules can negate.

    However what stops me from becoming properly invested in this game is that it is a Forgeworld game. The minis are beautiful, but Forgeworld prices are ridiculous, shipping to the States is out of this world, I also dislike working with resin, especially having to clean the pieces thoroughly only to miss a small area and have your paint job chip, and large models which require epoxy and pinning to maintain a strong bond are frustrating if all you want is to get an army on the table, not a modelling project.

    The worst thing is the somewhat static plastic sets GW released are more expensive than their 40k equivalents now that you cannot get them for cheap from e-bay, and with less options on the sprues your forced to go to Forgworld for all but the most basic of loadouts.

  • Jack Boland
    • euansmith

      I regret that I have but one like to give.

  • Stephen Henry IV

    My opinion (not that anyone cares) is that there are flaws with both 7th ed and 8th ed. I personally think that there were more problems with 7th ed but HH seemed to rectify some of them.

    I personally think that they should take the best elements of both and make a game outta that. 8th ed has done a lot of things right, but I don’t think some of the rules work for HH.

    Keep armor and veichle facings, USRs, characters joining units, and cover from 7th. Then take AP modifiers, the ability to “split fire” without having that rule and weapon rules similar to 8th like Assault and Heavy. Although I think heavy should be -2 to Hit for HH so it’s like a mix of snap firing and the -1 in 8th. Additionally I think there should be a rule for Rapid Fire weapons saying you can fire 1 shot at half range without penalties or 2 at half but charges are -2 to range to take into account that a guy running full sprint and unloading into a squad in front of him is slowed down a little to be more accurate.

    • euansmith

      I love the image of Marines stumbling forward over broken ground, spraying bullets and tripping over rocks.

    • They will never do it look how long it took to release the new RB and it has errors plus they never released an FAQ for Inferno which is chock full of errors.

  • Jonathon Runge

    I have no love for 8th. While 7th has some problems I play with a group of narrative players that mix in the tabletop rpg for 30k and 40k. A change to 8th would kill group interest in 30k. In any case I prefer 30k custodes stats and models. Look at those dreadnaughts.

    • Custodes are totally waac.

      • Jack Boland

        Well, this is half true. WAAC is determined by the army and the player. Designing a cheesy list can be done with just about every army. Its up to the player to determine how they want to interact with others. Yes, custodes are better. I’ve played them in a tournament. However, since both of our objectives wasnt to destroy each other, but to forge a narrative, we had a blast.

        • Thousand Sons are waac too.

          • Jack Boland

            are you just trolling? if so, why write an article?

          • No they really are… example is Magnus slinging all the D.

          • Jack Boland

            again, if you cant understand the difference between WAAC and a powerful army list, you really dont understand 30k.

          • I’ve been playing since the first book. I have played at events all over the world and have several social media groups that are very popular too.

          • Jack Boland

            then why troll?

          • Haha

          • Hisdudeness


        • TankTribune anyone ?

  • Dominic Pirrello

    We haven’t received update to HH because GW does not want us to. They are blocking FW releases and development time. Keeping the 7th ed rules is the right choice. It will continue to distinguish the game as separate from 40k and allow it to maintain it’s exclusive and elite feel.

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    I kinda feel HH players are on a different level of nerdiness than the typical 40k/aos player.

    This comes with an absolute love of the game and its lore, but also with some gate keeping and hygiene issues.

    Last HH event I went to had a seriously unpleasant funk to the air, and I ended up stuck in a ‘conversation’ where I was complained to for 20 mins about the colour of Angron’s Axe.

    • euansmith

      Is it blue and gold or black and white?

    • While that sort of argument over paintjobs is completely stupid and uncalled for, and I don’t think hygiene problems are exclusive to HH, or any sort of large event really, I’d agree that HH is likely on a different level from regular 40k, or AoS.

      HH is, in a sense, GW’s “Historical” setting which relies a lot more on narrative and preset conflicts. A lot of themed tables at events over the past two decades were stuff like the Siege of Terra or other HH-related showdowns between Legions, and they’re glorious, while 40k is much more open with fewer, well-covered mass conflicts. And even those we do know a lot about were often covered by ForgeWorld, like the Badab War.
      People are fascinated by, say, the devastation of Calth or Isstvan V and want to see them depicted in art while building their own Legions to possibly reenact them with their friends.

      The approach to writing is completely different at FW, and it is reflected by the community who do get invested in characters, tragic events and all that jazz. There’s more room to tell those stories at FW, than in a short, 4 paragraph snippet in a Codex, or a mere timeline entry.

      Then there’s the matter of investment. People buy the Black Books not just because they contain rules, but because they drive the narrative forward, are beautifully designed and have new nuggets of information that enrich the setting. Even 8th, which advanced the timeline by ~120 years or so, didn’t add much in its Codex releases so far – most of the units from last edition are still there and personal growth of the special characters is confined to Black Library. 40k supplements and Codexes are rarely discussed for their fluff, whereas FW’s HH books are less about plain rules and more about said fluff.

      Then there’s the HH series by Black Library that gives more minute insights into key events and characters, which supports the hobby aspect of HH further and gets people invested even before they pick up the first FW product.

      • 8th edition can fully support these aspects of HH.

        • Jack Boland


          • It can

          • Jack Boland

            Sure, a completely reworked edition. In its current state, it barely supports 40k.

          • 8th is the best edition ever did you miss the memo or something ?!

          • Hisdudeness

            8th is the worse edition ever…even worse than 2nd. It’s the Candyland version of 40k for the goldfish level of attention new players.

          • Why ?

          • Hisdudeness

            Why is it a Candyland version of 40k? Because all of the depth has been removed. The entire game is nothing but combos and bubble wrapping those combos in units. For every “fix” 8th made, 2 more issues popped up.

            Very little was wrong with 7th,except for the players…they killed the game.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        it wasn’t over my paint jobs.

        Its a historical, I can sort of understand that.

        I was cornered by a chap who thought I might be interested that a specific painting of angron (that he brought up) had the incorrectly coloured axe.

        He wouldn’t stop.

        I cannot overstate how out of about a dozen small to large HH events, they have all had problems with stench.

        • euansmith

          I thought that was any large hall full of blokes. General Wargame Events and Computer Fairs can be fairly smelly too I’ve found, and, I assume, that, despite the fresh air, football terraces have a certain aroma of meat pies, beer, body odour and stale dreams. Are HH events especially eye-watering?

        • That’s literally every event/convention ever. Don’t make the mistake of going to any PAX, anime convention or ComicCon. Let alone Comiket. Lots of people in a closed space will produce lots of smell by default, and there’s little you can do about it.

    • HH gamers tend to be fluff bunnies that really get into the background behind their armies.

    • Jack Boland

      wow, thats incredibly rude generalisation. its 2017 mate.

      • Wow that really offends you !?

        • Jack Boland

          not really. It surprises me.

          • You must be a child then – snickers

          • Jack Boland

            haha oh man, what wonderful authors BoLs has to offer.

          • I tell like it is.

          • Jack Boland


      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        In my experience out of about a dozen events (all across the UK, and a couple in Spain), every single one of them had a massive problem with players odour and lack of social skills.

        I have stopped attending.

        • Jack Boland

          haha ok

        • euansmith

          Maybe there needs to be a “three colours minimum and a shower” rule? I imagine those “No Retreat” games on Gibraltar smell nice. The players certainly look well turned out.

        • Jared Jeanquart

          Nerd funk is a real phenomenon.

    • Marco Marantz

      Are you really surprised? Nerds are generally deficient in social skills, if not on the autistic spectrum.

  • Mikemontelongo
  • Mikemontelongo

    I’m just curious who this guy is? Also where are you playing Horus Heresy? I have Never seen you at ANY Horus Heresy Event. Let alone believe your fingers are in the community enough to have any valid opinion of it.

  • 8th ed Horus Heresy would be the end of my interest in playing Horus heresy, straight up.

  • Nic Kelsall

    “Betrayal at Calth” and “Burning of Prospero” are GW games, not additions from Forge World who has brought us The Horus Heresy. Forge World is not a big company like Games Workshop. With 8th upon us in 40k Forge World has given an answer about to what to do about rules with their new rule book. They are not as staffed as GW in order to do a massive update in such a short time especially with the loss of one of their head writers. Horus Heresy is not dying. Let Forge World do their thing. Give them a chance to build themselves back up and continue to go strong. Let Games Workshop do their thing. They seem to be trying to bring back Specialist Games as board games and does not seem as focused on the Horus Heresy as they were just starting out with those Horus Heresy board games they put out.

    • Who told you this ?!

      • Nic Kelsall

        Forge World and Games Workshop being separate is fact. They are not one giant company. Each has its own individual staffing.
        As far as the loss of a key person in Forge World, Warhammer Community page for example.
        Alan died this year and if you read the article you will find he was key in a lot in Forge World. They suffered a loss and are still doing what they can for the community.
        As far as how it looks like Specialist Games looks like it’s comin back on board game form, just look at what was realized. Games Workshop had a couple games released but really hit it big with the Horus Heresy games. After that had been warhammer quest, Blood Bowl, Shade Spire, Necromunda: Underhive. All are specialize smaller game/skirmish style games they can devote people to making expansions for.
        My own speculation is those Horus Heresy board games got people paying attention to their line of board games but with Forge World handling the complete Heresy line, they may have decided not to devote as much to it. Who knows, maybe they will surprise us and release more Horus Heresy board games.

  • Marco Marantz

    Let the past die…kill it if you have to.

    It was always going to end. The fact that no one except the fellow who passed away in all of GW has been unable to carry on is pretty pathetic.

    • Matthew Pomeroy

      had to upvote the Kylo Ren quote.

      • Marco Marantz

        Its Disney’s strategy re the franchise.

  • Stefano Coz

    100%, total bullcrap. An enormous problem with 8th is how everything feels thr same. All the marines are just different coloured Smurfs, every list is “how many rerolls can i jam in here, and how close do i huddle the whole army around a couple characters?”

    How the hell would they make the heresy feel 1000x worse in that environment, considering its all marines (Mech, Auxillia and Cults non witnstanding)? Like whoever wrote this must have done so on the toilet, both from where they got there ideas and how long they thought about it.

    • Every army is unique while HH is power armor 24-7.

      • Stefano Coz

        Its the heresy…..were you expecting orks?

    • Marco Marantz

      pretty much sums up 8th ed

  • Crablezworth

    8th us a garbage fire and 30k is fine, leave it alone

  • Part 2 next week.

  • Nyyppä

    Well, 8th ed is superior to 7th. No question about it. Especially since they now made some changes to the rules that are popular, yes, but oh so very bad for the game. Getting rid of invisibility was good (unless you count the now useless Lorgar as a loss), the rest of the changes to the original rules…not so much.

    But yes, HH is not dead. It would benefit from turning to 8th edition rules since there’s not that much to change and it could be done with a single errata file or by simply releasing the army books for 8th edition rules.

    Then again I’d be happy just with them balancing the point costs again. There are units that are now not worth anything really and some that simply annihilate anything they happen to see and units in both of these categories can cost just as much while bringing ridiculously different levels of value with them.

  • ctFallen

    Sorry, I don’t like 8th. Its a gamer game, its like Magic the Gathering combined with Warmachine, its all about combos and does nothing to simulate what I picture warfare would actually be like in the 41st millennium. 8ths tactics are all about combos, auras, and popping(tapping) special abilities, things like pinning and flanking are meaningless, flamers make good AA, things just don’t make sense. 7th isn’t perfect either and there are some good things that could be taken from 8th but for narrative play I feel 7th is better.

    • Crablezworth

      well said

      • You’re well fed.

        • Crablezworth

          People can come up with statistics to prove anything, 40 percent of people know that.

  • Son_of_Corax_XIX

    You do know your wrong in saying that most people wanted Heresy to be moved to 8th right? You might mean most Americans do because you use ITC, which from how the article is written I would assume you are one as well.

    In the UK and at events like the weekender everyone said they wanted it to stay in 7th as it works fine with it as there aren’t as many factions or universal special rules and they can handle COMPLEX rule systems and don’t need their hands holding. Its like asking Forgeworld kits to be made in plastic because you don’t have the advanced skills required to work with resin.

    Finally Alan Bligh died this year and since he was the brains behind the Heresy and what happens with it, things have slowed and taken a knock as a result while the studio tries to fill a nearly untenable place left by a great mans passing.
    Try and have a little class and understanding due to events and what happened instead of being the usual whiny self entitled hobbyist.
    As stated below Calth and Prospero are not Forgeworld games but GW ones that are only available while demand is high meaning they wont be around forever.
    If you look most of the separate kits GW made from the boxed sets have become direct only showing that they are not meant to be around forever. Moreover factions like the Custodes are getting their own Codex next year.

  • Tim Eerens Sköld

    I love playing 8th Ed. but i see no reason why HH should join it, i love that i can play some Fluffy HH with 7th ed:ish rules if i want to. Stop assuming and spreading false information about what HH players want. Just stick to 8th if you are this unhappy.