40K Counterpoint: Daemon Shenanigans & Simple Fix

 

Sure, I would love to drop my Maulerfiend 9″ from my opponent.  But that just ain’t right, is it?

I am writing this in the early evening of January 15th.  I would not be surprised if, by the time this gets published, GDub and a FAQ have fixed the potential foolishness.  “What foolishness Stormy?” you ask with the intonation of an innocent (or not so innocent) bystander.  Well, let me tell ya…

The issue, as most of us are aware, is not the ambiguity created by the unholy combination of the keywords “Chaos” and “Daemon.”  The issue is the rationalizing many of us are guilty of.  You know of what I speak.  “My model/unit has/have the keywords Chaos and Daemon.  That means I can use stratagems and other goodies from the Chaos Daemon codex.”  Wow, that sounds great!  You mean I can deep strike units like my Decimator and my Maulerfiends?  You mean I can drop in a large unit of Possessed?  How about my Primarchs?  They have the Chaos and Daemon keywords. I can use Denizens of the Warp to get them up close and personal with my opponent.  Why not sprinkle a bit of Warp Time in with that to make my opponent extra salty? What about my Warp Talons (this is redundant in their case)?  Think of all the buffs I can give my units that aren’t in the Chaos Daemon codex that have the awesome keywords Chaos and Daemon?  OK, enough already.

You and I both know this type of abuse is crap.  You can act all indignant, continue to rationalize (arguably the second strongest human drive) and perform imaginary list building shenanigans to your heart’s content.  But the bottom line is that we KNOW this is not what GW intended with the Chaos Daemon dex.  Seriously?  I know my Decimator, Maulerfiend and Defiler are possessed by Daemons, but they are Daemon Engines (with the applicable keyword), NOT Daemons.  Magnus and Mortarion could use better invulnerable saves or maybe some other tasty buff from the Chaos Daemons codex.  Why not?

Because, dear reader, none of the aforementioned, or not aforementioned, datasheets are daemons from the Warp.  Having those two coolio keywords is not what makes them daemons that can take advantage of some of the more interesting stratagems, Loci or psyhic powers in the new book.  Is there an easy way to clear the baffles here?  Yes there is.  Stormy sez “Daemonic Ritual.”

The cleanest way to sweep aside all of the issues real or imagined is to simply state that Chaos Daemon stratagems,

e.g., only apply to units that have the “Daemonic Ritual” ability.  

This simple statement would also apply to units in the Forge World Index: Chaos that have the “arch-Daemonic Ritual” ability.  This would also apply to my best buddies; my pair of Giant Chaos Spawn.  They have the Daemonic Ritual ability.  The solution is simple and elegant.  It eliminates ambiguity, and makes it VERY clear which units can (those in the Chaos Daemon codex and a select few other locations) and cannot (units in Heretic Astartes and a select few other locations) use Denizens of the Warp and other tasty buffs.

That’s it folks.  Just a quick ride on the reality train to get us back on track…I know, I know…it even hurt to type that.  No doubt the folks at Games Workshop have another solution in mind.  I just thought I would put this out there in this time of confusion, fantasy, drug induced hallucination and other forms of escapism.  My Thousand Sons will hopefully still have their daemon buddies to play with when the dust has settled on this one.

One final question…if the Decimator and the Maulerfield are dropped from the same height, with they hit the ground at the same time?

~What fun combination have you thought up before this gets fixed?

  • Marcus Clark

    Will*

  • Rob brown

    Absolutely spot on article!

    It’s the rationalization that becomes an excuse for justifying all sorts of oddness. For some people twisting the game into a corkscrew is fun. The fall out is the unavoidable consequence of giving people a plethora of options. Also the nature of forum posters means the vocal minority become more pronounced than they are.

    Choose your play buddies wisely.

    • Nyyppä

      What specifically is the problem with this?

    • Rufus

      Yeah, daemon primarchs coming out of the warp is just unjustifiable. They should be shot out of existence in the first action of a skirmish battle. Let’s not villainously twist this noble game by using the designers’ keyword system as intended.

      • Rob brown

        Well with T8, 3+/4++/5+++ save, and 18 wounds I don’t think a primarch is going anywhere round 1 of shooting (unless everything in a dedicated shooting army is hitting them, and then you’ve still benefited) and to be fair back when they were designed and costed there was no WD so its not like you’ve lost anything. Even before WD primarchs are showing up in every list, so maybe adding more ways to make them even more powerful isnt needed?

        If the Daemon primarchs were codex Daemon characters then that might be different. But granting Morty WD just because there are a few daemons in the army is abuse.

        • LankTank

          Na primarchs get smoked every time if you know how. Hellblasters, Electro Priests sometimes, gaunt swarm with acid blood, blight bombardment, Killshots, Triple Punishers. There are tonnes that go toe to toe and I don’t even know about half of Eldars shenanigans.
          In all honesty I do think their should be an FAQ to say that Titanic models have to use 3CP instead of 2. That is not a light cost.

    • LankTank

      The ONLY things that should not have access to this rule is LOW at best. And IMO they should still be able to but you pay 3CP. That is a large investment in points for the model and CP as with such a heavy LOW, that army will likely have at best 9, more likely 7.

  • Marcus Clark

    All seriousness i agree and maybe say units that have titanic, vehicle or monstor should also not benifit from denizens of the warp either.

    • Nyyppä

      Why? Why is this a problem? It’s not a problem in tournaments and the potentially dickish moves that combination allows are pretty much nonexistent in other gaming environments. It’s not about what can be done in theory but rather what is done in practice. I will use my scorpion with these rules some day, absolutely, but the crying here is as if that was an every game occurrence.

      • Karru

        Also, I don’t see why people are complaining about a mechanic that is working completely as intended. It is purposefully made to work with being able to summon all kinds of Daemons, including Primarchs for the sole reason to make them more effective than they already are to promote sales.

        • Nyyppä

          This. The funny thing is that I’m playing the arguably worst army there is at the moment (my luck and GWs understanding on how core rules work as a combo is not great) and I do not fear deep striking primarchs, at all. It’s not even close to as powerful as people claim it is. It’s a lot worse than the wraith bomb was in 7th and even that was pretty easy to block.

          • LankTank

            Yeah I agree. “OMG Magnus can get to you turn 1 using 2CP!”
            He could always get to you turn 1 due to Warp Time.
            “But now I can’t Alpha Strike him with my deepstriking things!”
            So wait… You don’t want my scary thing to deepstrike becasue you want to kill it with your scary deepstriking unit?
            “errrrmmmm/…..”

          • Nyyppä

            Yeah. The bias is ridiculously obvious.

      • Rob brown

        If its a dickish move then there should be no issue preventing it.

        • Nyyppä

          There is no issue preventing it. It’s called screening. You could do it in day 1 in RT and it’s been doable ever since.

    • LankTank

      Can’t Admech do something similar with a Knight?

    • LankTank

      So what, GUO, bloodthirsters etc can’t break into real space? The essence of the whole armies fluff? But still all good to webway portal whatever and do the same with Admech teleporters?

  • defensive

    Honestly, this edition is just filled with so many amateur mistakes like this, I’m not even surprised anymore.

    For a wider reaching change, just make it so you can only use stratagems on units in a detachment of that faction.
    Daemon strats for Daemons, CSM strats for CSM.

    My boy Egon said it best, “Don’t cross the streams.”

    • dark-tadpole

      If it is a mistake. It may have been their intention to allow strategems to work like this. Didn’t an faq already state this (not specifically daemons but about how keywords interact with strategams).

      They may change their mind based on feedback and as the game develops.

      I wouldn’t agree with saying they are amateur mistakes if this is what they intended. Obviously if you don’t like the rules or the game that’s fair enough but be honest in your criticism and don’t jump to conclusions saying they made a mistake.

      I haven’t played against Chaos so haven’t actually seen this play out on the tabletop but don’t the Imperium have similar things they can do. Hopefully if the Xenos gets stuff like this as well it will be a bit fairer.

      • Nyyppä

        It’s not even close to as awesome as it sounds. Girlyman is still the king of cheese and nothing in chaos can match that.

      • defensive

        An FAQ did say that they want them to work like this, but I can’t imagine why they would, since it only opens the gates to horribly unbalanced combos like this, and doesn’t even make sense fluff wise. Unless they specifically write the codexes to be balanced in big soup lists, which they haven’t done here, it’s gonna be a bad time. And if they do that, it creates balace issues when you try to run it outside of a soup list.

        Which is why I called it an amateur mistake. GW has been making rules for 25+ years, and to have stuff like this slip though, which is probably gonna be nerfed in the FAQ, that was picked up by the community instantly, looks like the work of people that are making their first game, intended or not.

        With Imperium units, almost all of them specifically refer to the specific faction, such as “Astra Militarum”, or “Adeptus Astartes”, rather than just “Imperium”
        The only exception to this I can think of is space marine subfactions using core space marine stratagems, which is hardly gamebreaking.

        • Nyyppä

          What exactly is the balance issue here? What in it is contradictory to fluff? Looking at the sheer number of units available to any of the bigger imperial factions this thing right here is pretty minor.

          • defensive

            That you can take 500-600pt combat monsters, whose main drawback is being slow and big targets, that were already considered very good despite that, and suddenly placing them 9″ away from the enemy.
            THAT is the balance issue.

            The fluff issue, is that why should they get access to all these new powers suddenly, just because there is 2 daemon guys in the army? How does that make sense? If they were meant to have these abilities, why would they need a daemon detachment to have them?

            And number of units means jack squat. Chaos and Daemons are already the most powerful armies currently out. An Imperium list being able to take a detachment of ad mech, with an inqisitor, some custodes, a space marine squad, and some guard, means nothing. Because what wins, is 5 daemon princes, magnus, and 200 cultists.

          • Nyyppä

            Who the hell considers slow moving ridiculously expensive yet pretty easily killable thing that simply can not hide “very good” as is? It’s very good when it gets to do it’s thing, which it will not get to do if it can’t get close enough, which it can’t do without deep striking. So, again, either it’s viable or you get your way and it’s crap. It does not get more binary than that. Your “balance issue” is fixed by fielding a screening unit that costs 70p at most.

            How does it make sense that fielding units gives the player access to the abilities that come with them? Why are 2 sub factions of a faction able to work together synergistic fashion? This is the essence of your question. I’m sure I don’t have to answer that.
            Instead of that please do tell me why Guilliman buffs AM conscripts, because that seems to bother no one. Not me, not you. Yet it is far, far more ridiculous than what you are trying to dispute here.

            “Chaos” is not an army. CSM and Daemons are armies. Even if they were, which is very much not a fact, how does that make this thing bad, this thing that makes them have more sub optimal yet reasonably viable units while doing nothing else?

            PS: Please do tell me how WB is one of the most powerful things in the game.

          • defensive

            Who? Comp players perhaps? The fact that a Daemon Primarch is included in almost every winning chaos list in tournaments? And that CSM, Daemons, and Chaos soup make up the three highest average scoring armies for the 2017 ITC tournaments.
            To say that these are bad units is simply wrong.

            You can have them work together just fine. Why how does it make sense, that Mortarion cannot deep strike, but as soon as there is a Khorne herald and 10 blood letters in the army, suddenly he learns the power to deep strike?
            And as for Guilliman, Imperial soldiers are probably gonna fight harder when they are fighting next to some borderline god figure. That is pretty simple.

            Because it takes already great units, and makes them a ton more powerful. That is the problem here. No one gives a rats a$$ about deep striking sub optimal units. Stop bringing them up as if it means anything. It’s deep striking POWERFUL units that is the problem.

          • Karru

            Try to realise that this is exactly what GW wants. Big games, bigger collections, faster games. The only way to achieve that is to make things extremely lethal so that games are ended on turn 2 or 3. It has nothing to do with the idea of actual balance, they want to make sure that competitive crowd has all the tools at their disposal to pump out games so that their collections get bigger from the constant changes to the rules.

          • defensive

            Sadly, you’re not wrong.

          • Drpx

            You forgot to mention a Magic-style meta forcing the comp types to buy a new army every other month.

          • Nyyppä

            The wins do not come from the primarch itself. They come from bad counters to the rest of the army. The primarch is there to serve 1 of 2 purposes. It’s either a “distraction carnifex” or failing at that it kills a unit per turn. Essentially if you don’t want to let it get to you you shoot it for one turn and it’s gone.

            How does it make sense that a daemon with daemon support can do more daemonlike things than without daemon support? Maybe because of the daemon support? Why do helbrutes open portals to enter the battle when they are not daemons and can’t support outside a specific formation?

            Ok, so, because of an iconic dude (who is in the vicinity but does nothing more) nearby mortals suddenly are able to do things they could otherwise never ever do on their own, which makes sense to you. But it does not make sense to you that because of support from chaos gods chaos demigods can now use different ways to enter the battle. Does this combination of logic that you offered make sense to you? It makes no sense to me.

            Great units do not die to mediocre fire during turn one. Primarchs do. They are great when they do not have to spend 2-3 turns taking it in the face. They are useless if they can’t get to where they are needed. It’s a binary. The 0 you want to happen is bad for the game because it takes away options that do not hurt the game. The 1 that exists now is good for the game because it works like it does. If you don’t like it, house rule it away. If you can’t win in tournaments buy an army that lets you do that.

            Look. It’s all about what the casual tables look like. Tournaments are their own thing and there anything within rules is fair game. It’s a fallacy to claim that they somehow dictate if a codex is too or not powerful enough. They do show the peak of the power a codex can bring on the table but that is it. Mediocre codex that does not win tournaments is still infinitely better than a tournament winning codex with 2-3 units that can be used in a game. Now, if a codex is so bad that it can not work in a regular setting (read casual) or so good that it breaks any setting by default (7th ed eldar for example) then that is an actual problem. CSM and CD, even combined, are not even remotely that good. As an example Guilliman is broken no matter the style of play it is used in, daemon primarchs are a real threat ONLY when they can choose to deploy freely.
            You need to understand this before you start complaining about it.

          • Rob brown

            Sorry matey, but you’re never going to provide a convincing argument that primarchs should be able to deepstrike within 9″ turn 1. The game just wont be better if that happens. Not for chaos players (I run 1k sons) not for opponents of chaos players. Its just bad in every sense.

            The notion that 450pt primarchs are only a threat when they deploy freely is disproved by the last 9 months of gameplay and is ludicrous.

            Both chaos primarchs have 12″ fly which pretty much guarantees them a turn 2 charge if you want. Less if the opponent is agressive. They are not required to sit out 2-3 turns doing nothing.

            It takes 30+ space marine las-cannon shots to take down Morty. You assertion that they can easily be taken down with a round of shooting is patently untrue. Many armies do not have anything close to as good as multiple 3+, S9, D1d6 high range shooting.

            Guilliman being overpowered under-costed and overused is not grounds to make every other characer the same way. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

          • Nyyppä

            So, in your opinion it’s bad for the game that chaos has this kind of synergy in it. I get that. Now tell me, why do you think it’s bad that CSM may now use long forgotten units like possessed to do things? Why are possessed being able to have some sort of value breaking the game? If they are not then why do you think that the rule is to blame instead of players who use it, as intended, to do powerful things on the table?

            You must realize, that if a 450p giant target with almost exclusively melee based properties is a problem for anyone except mono custodes or deathwatch then you have no idea how to play the game. That super unit is made moot by minor speed bumps. Iron warriors, that are not even that good, can just erase it’s killing power with 300p worth of cultists. That gives you 150p you essentially have on top of what the guy with the primarch has.

            Any player worth a damn can make that primarch run in circles the whole game. The “problem” is that some one trick lists that tend to fare well in tornaments can’t counter it. That is a good thing.

            So, essentially morty dies to roughly one round of SM artillery focusing on it. Girlyman + 6 to 7 hundred points. That’s an elite arm solution. Hordes just don’t care anyway.

            So, yeah, you have to counter it. That is true. Other than that it’s not anything special. Honestly I’d rather face that than nid hordes or equivalent.
            The real problem with this is that people are panicking because chaos is not crap. That is all it is.

          • Rob brown

            Sorry Nyappa, you don’t support your many assertions; one round shotting a primarch; tying down a flying creature; and making assumptions about other people being scared of chaos… I play Thousand sons and I can recognise that Primarchs are overpowered.

            As what you are talking is purely your opinion rather than a reason based position. I’m going to politely agree to disagree with you.

          • Nyyppä

            The point is it’s easy to counter. Sure, if left unsuperviced those are close to as destructive as an unsupervised gamestore kid but the barriers needed to block a primarch are easily put up. If this thing really needs a solution then I’d suggest something like the LOW restrictions in HH, meaning under 2k games should have none.

          • LankTank

            so then say the problem is with the rule applying to LOW. Not that the problem is the whole keyword system
            YOU opened those suggestions, not him

          • LankTank

            Actually Nyppa we have had discussions about WB before but I am really excited to see how Daemonic Pact and Soul Sacrifice can be used thematically in a WB army. 4CP, Some Dark Apostle summoning 2 units like a boss and rolling 4D6 for the summoning, rerolling any low die and not suffering perils for doubles. THAT is cool. I mean not very Cost effective command points wise but still cool

          • Nyyppä

            True, but cool and viable are different things. I’d rather take viable than cool if I can’t have both and GW is not going to make summoning viable. In this context large number of viable things make great games, large number of cool things make losing streaks that last as long as the current rules are used.

          • LankTank

            Ive been using summoning more and more. It cant be underestimated for having that midgame change in area control. and being able to call in 2 units is very good. 5 fiends or fleshounds with a supporting character on an unexpected flank. Hell even just plaguebearers 12″ up at the beginning of the game rather than a usual 7-8″ is huge

          • Nyyppä

            All that is true, but the random nature ofit makes it next to useless. If you could choose to do what ever you want with your points then sure, it would be good.

          • LankTank

            Well if you are thinking about maybe running Karaknak up, then bringing in 20x Bloodletters in a prime position turn 2 then it’s only an 8 on 3D6. Not exactly hard to pull off so the randomness is mitigated. And if you are a little short you can swing down to 10 at a pinch. And Skulltaker is only 5 if you are looking to do Daemonic Pact. Very easy to pull off for 225pts put aside and suddenly your Bloodletters are 23-28″ infield by turn 2. That can definitely be worth it if you have some deepstriking units who will need some substantial support. If you are using CSM character on bike for example, then you are also not messing with your detachment keywords (not that it really matters if you lose your WB trait right? =p)

          • Nyyppä

            Or just buy the unit and spend 1 cp to deepstrike it while not killing your leaders.

            Honestly, the previous summoning was better. It had a risk and reward dynamic in which if you wanted to pull it of you pretty much got perils every time. The new system is just a series of risks. Can you get enough pl to summon what you need? Do you get perils. The new system is more balanced because almost no one uses it.

          • Drpx

            Guard is the most powerful army currently out. But please drop your D.primarch 9” from my conscript line that has 30 melta/plasma guns sitting behind it.

          • Nyyppä

            This.

          • LankTank

            Why should the WHOLE daemon keyword synergy be taken away just because of your fear of 4 LOW models?
            I mean by your standards I could sitll have Angorath drop within 9″ and you are cool with that?
            The only thing that needs to be changed is an increase to CP for LOW.

        • Koen Diepen Van

          You can (could haven’t read the faq) use the IG stratagem to raise the save of anny unit in your armie not just IG (so basicly all imperium factions or tryranids depending on your army)

          • defensive

            It was indeed FAQ’d to only work on Astra Militarum units.

          • LankTank

            Big difference between how the synergies of Chaos and Chaos Daemons should be as opposed to synergies between guard and Tyranids.

        • marxlives

          As always defensive is articulate and on point.

          • Nyyppä

            But objectively not right.

          • marxlives

            articulate and on point is by its nature = to objectively true.

          • Nyyppä

            We are talking about his personal preference vs. what’s good for the game. He can be all that and still argue against what’s objectively good for the game.

        • LankTank

          So what is exactly overpowered with Daemons deepstriking? Chaos players can already effectively deepstrike 20 man khorne berserker units. But is some possessed come in it’s bad?

          • Marcus Clark

            Honestly its the 9″ deployment thats the major problem for large (Titanic/Monsters) turn 1 that’s the issue. for troops within 9″ is fine as it matches every other faction eg teleport/ hyperspace/ webway/ droop pod etc.
            But Giant creatures popping up within 9′ is a stretch, maybe if the moved it to 12″ for models of that size it would be better, take the monolith for example. Descend’s from above must be 12″ away.

          • LankTank

            Good point but tbf Monolith is a Shooting powerhouse that brings in more units. Daemons are majority combat, they need that 9″ chance. It’s actually Magnus that has everyone concerned with the Warp Time possibilities but I’m betting he loses that come 1kSons codex.
            But again I would say an increase to 3CP for LOW or at worst no LOW using it

          • Marcus Clark

            Im GW are on top of this like they were about conscript/ comisar abuse.

      • briandavion

        they did specificly say “Working as intended” with the DG/CSM stratgiums IIRC

        • sethmo

          DG and CSM both have the Heretic Astartes Faction Keywords, that’s why it’s ok.

          • briandavion

            yup, hence presumably in deamon CSM units it’s also working as intended. it looks over all like GW’s being careful to put a number of options in every codex that allow SOME synergy with other faction codices, such as the new Custodes banner bearers have one option that’s CLEARLY designed more for allied lists then pure lists.

    • Nyyppä

      And yet not doing what you suggest makes the game better in this specific context…

      • defensive

        In what way?

        • Nyyppä

          CSM has plenty of 100% useless units that this makes fieldable even though they still remain weak. Most daemon engines are slow, the ones that are not are paper. Then there are possessed. If this does not work there is no reason what so ever to field any of the above, ever. They will not survive to do anything useful against an opponent that is not a total vegetable unless they can be shielded with the option to deep strike.

          So yeah, I guess I agree with you on GW making amateur mistakes. It’s just that what you see as a mistake is actually a thing that makes the game objectively better by giving the players more options in terms of fieldable units while not making any of them game breakingly good. The mistake they made is that some units in those factions have no chance to work without this. This single stratagem either practically makes half of the CSM viable on kitchen tables (not in tournaments still) or deletes them from the list of available options.

          Also it’s fluffy af. We have a preexisting example of this in the form of Mayhem Pack from 6th or 7th edition in which regular helbrutes, which are not daemons, are “teleported” in to the battle by opening a sort of temporary warp gate. If the fluff says this can be done then it can be done according to fluff.

          • defensive

            The problem with Daemon engines is that they have +4 WS and BS, which makes them just unreliable. No one is complaining about them deep striking, because honestly who cares, they are meh either way.
            Possessed, again, fine. No one is going to call a unit of 10 possessed deep striking OP, because they aren’t.
            And if they put a stratagem in the CSM codex that let infantry units deep strike, that would be fine, the same as how it’s fine in all the Eldar armies.

            It’s when you get to deep striking Primarchs, and Lord of Skulls, where it becomes an issue. Their whole gameplan is that they are big targets, but they are tough enough to get there, and balanced around the fact that they will take fire on the way there. If you are just deep striking a full health primarch or LoS right into the enemy, it just breaks them, and makes them so much more powerful than they already are, and they are already taken in most chaos comp lists.

          • Nyyppä

            So your issue is that you can’t shoot them down 100% of the time before they can do something. Roger that. No further questions.

          • defensive

            Well, see, now you aren’t arguing in good faith here.
            Why even bother replying if you are just making up completely different arguments for me in your head?

          • ZeeLobby

            It’s the fanboy defense. When confronted with sound argument, flip the table.

          • Nyyppä

            I just pointed out what your real issue is with this. Good faith or not it’s not like it wouldn’t be the truth. You even admitted that the synergy is not the problem but that it can be used in a way you do not like, meaning you are not willing to actively counter. You need less than 100p worth of models to literally make the whole thing 100% moot and that is too much in your opinion. I used my leftover units to deny effective ds from my opponents grotesque bomb, which is what you are now going to have to do to counter the primarchs. It worked, I won. I’d rather have that primarch against me than what I got because the grotesque bomb is a lot more of a problem for my list.

            Did I sigh when I heard about it? Yes. Did I whine? No. Did I quit? No. Did I do what was necessary to prevail? Yes. These are things you need to do to win. Do them and the primarchs stop being a problem.

            Also get over the fact that Chaos as a whole is now viable. It was that last time 15 years ago. Before 8th it was 4ish years the worst thing in the game excluding 1 deathstar and Kairos.

          • Fergie0044

            You may be unfamiliar with Nyyppa. ‘Good faith’ isn’t exactly his style…

          • Xodis

            I have never agreed with Nyyppa before, but in this case he is right. The only difference between a DS Primarch and one that cant is how close he gets before focused fire takes him down in a turn…maybe two.

          • Fergie0044

            I wasn’t commenting on the topic (and deliberately not saying what I think on it). Just after reading through all his posts here, that his style of discussion was …. well it wasn’t an adult discussion.

          • Xodis

            Well I will concede that point after my MANY arguments with him.

          • Fergie0044

            Lol. I read that with a weary sigh at the end.

          • Xodis

            You are on point sir.

          • Nyyppä

            Try that again without adding emotional load to those comments and you have an adult discusdion. It is a well known tendency for people to add that kind of elements to things to justify their disagreement with those ideas and to to make them seem immature or otherwise easier to think little of. It’s a matter of perspective. People see things as proper discussion almost regardless of the type of comments one uses if they agree with the opinion that is being presented and the opposite happens just as often. I’m sure defensive here is a level headed person who can discuss about this like an adult and more than likely does that here. His/her logic is failing though and seems to be based solely on the fact that people have to adjust their tactics according to their opposition yet again because of this stratagem. There are no fluff based reasons why the current system would not be ok, there are no game mechanics preventing it and GW has said that this kind of synergistic relationship between factions is their intended outcome. What remains is the question of power. Is it noo powerful? Compared to many things like conscripts, Guilliman and such it is not. The only logical conclusion after that is that people claiming that it’s too much just don’t want to face it, more than likely because it demands adjustment from them. That right there is childish even though the style of commenting might not be.

            It’s not personal. I just tend to use the failing logic the other participants use to show them why it’s failing. You have never seen that done by me to a person who can actually present a plausible argument for something I’m against and you never will. There is no reason to do that in those cases because the merits of such arguments are real, not mere preferences.

          • Nyyppä

            That’s not true. We have agreed on things. Not often, but it has happened before.

          • Xodis

            We did? Or is this another time when we wont agree? lol

          • Nyyppä

            Couple of times. Can’t remember what the topics were though. 😀

          • Nyyppä

            Not unless the other participant takes that route. I find it easier to work with people by using the standards they want to use. They tend to understand that language better than “I see your point but have you considered this angle” type of counter arguments. It’s the internet after all…

          • Marcus Clark

            We all know GW’s baby is Space marines aka Primaris Marines. So you know exactly what will happen, Primarchs get some new strategyms if they get their own codex (considering custodies just did and theres more Primaris units out now its not a stretch) and bam whats this move girlyman up to 9″ to the enemy and upto 3 units with him. Hey Knight have the Imperial key word or worse the new Primaris Repulsor’s. As I have said earlier drooping Primarchs, or lords of war, anything titanic like this is stupid, not just for chaos but for any faction.

          • LankTank

            Seems that the general consensus growing further and further down the thread is the rule if fine, but not for LOW

        • SYSTem050

          I can’t belive I am saying this but in this occasion I agree with nyyppa.

          You need screening units that’s the answer.

          • LankTank

            I know right? It’s odd. Like seeing a flying ostrich. Seems plausible one one hand but you know it’s wrong

          • LankTank

            And on that, imagine paying 2CP to try deepstrike Magnus but unfortunately he is still miles away from anything due to 5 scouts. But I suppose it prevents him being targeted before he gets to do anything . How unfair =)

    • sethmo

      It’s this exactly, stratagems are for the codex not the unit and it’s even in the rules/explanation in each codex. Add on top of that, the stratagems apply to the faction keyword not all keywords.

      • Apocryphus

        The codex actually says that if you include a Daemon detachment in your army, your army gains access to the strategems in the book. Also none of the strategems reference “Daemon Faction Keyword”, they only say Daemon Keyword. It has been clarified that all keywords exist without distinction after the game has started, so any daemons in the army can use any of the strategems in the codex. The only things that specifically reference the Daemon “Faction” Keyword are the psychic powers, warlord traits, and hellforged artifacts.

  • Sir Postalot

    Please stop making articles like this. It isn’t an issue that needs fixing.

    • Nyyppä

      Exactly. Chaos as a whole plays like it should now. What is wrong with that?

      • Mira Bella

        Maybe you are a little bit biased my friend. 😉

        • LankTank

          I’m not! =) Didn’t complain when every other army could deep strike cataclysmic pow pow unit such as Admech or Eldar. Not complaining now.

          • Sir Postalot

            Your alts are way too confusing for me :

        • Nyyppä

          Yes, I want my armies to function as they should according to fluff. That is my bias.

  • DeCold

    Oh, I get it now, only Imperium supposed to have combo-wombos and combine different armies. Others are simply there to be cannon fodder for poster boys.

    • bad mood

      No, my passive aggressive summer child. It’s that no one should have too powerful combos in the first place. If something feels too good to be true, most of the time it simply is. And while competitive gamers might not care about that, people that want to live and play in a happy environment do. The solution to a schoolyard full of bullies is not to become one yourself.

      • DeCold

        Well, I dont see tons of articles crying for nerf other nearly broken combos. If you want to live and play in happy environment, you probably should find people who are you comfortable to play with. Or change hobby, it is grimdark world over here after all.

        • Koonitz

          Because people got tired of complaining about them and having nothing done. This is a new one, therefore people will complain until it changes, or they get tired, again.

          For instance, people complained about Guilliman as a whole and all we got was a small points increase. People are STILL complaining about him. It’s just not as loud, because people are getting tired of not being listened to.

          Doesn’t mean it’s not a problem.

          Personally, I’ve simply actively decided to never appear in a 40k tournament again until I feel it’s gotten…. significantly better. Playing against the same super-powered special characters over and over again is not my idea of fun.

        • bad mood

          In my opinion there should be more articles about that – but whelp, I’m not an author and only have the books for my army anyway. If it was up to me, there should be list of issues that gets updated after every major rule release/update. We know already that GW is reading (and paying) BoLS. This oversimplificated scapegoat model isn’t working. And considering the game group, I do already. For example in my group it wouldn’t be a hassle if you’d play the (traitor) guard codex in conjunction with CSM. Heck, take the Catachan rules, those sound pretty chaotic already. Though I personally do prefer the FW ones. But then FW sorta abandoned all their guard stuff years ago and now they feel like …. well that’s a long whiny tale. We ignore Codex specific Strategems and Relics though since one of our players plays orks and, tbh, I sorta dread the day when he gets a dex and that door opens up. Some strategems are just too much and we’ll have a stern discussion about it I think.

    • Drpx

      Like you don’t have a marine army.

      • DeCold

        Nope, unless you mean CSM

        • Drpx

          Bolters and power armor= still counts.

          • Sir Postalot

            Agree marines are marines : )

      • Sir Postalot

        I have an imperial army

  • Nyyppä

    First time in over 15 years CSM and CD can actually synergize with each other, you know, as intended. GW did it’s job right with this one. Why are you b*tching about it?

    How about you all stop whining because you can no longer auto win chaos. Be glad that one more faction is challenging and thus more fun to play with and against. Each time a faction or a faction pair adds more challenge to the game it gets better.

    • Hrudian

      What’s with all the EXACT same reactions under different usernames here on BOLS lately? Are these Russian trolls or something? Who’s manipulating these boards? This is some serious stuff..

      • Sir Postalot

        I haven’t got a clue but this is kinda odd. :

        • Hrudian

          yeah, it’s not as serious as I did sound indeed 😀

      • Nyyppä

        Do you mean the commenters or the articles?

        • Hrudian

          commenters.

          The last example I saw where like 5 commenters saying the EXACT same thing about how expensive the new Great Unclean kit is, but that they where buying it anyway because it looks so cool and it’s worth the investment. (nudge nudge)

          • Nyyppä

            Oh. I think it’s a horrible kit no matter the cost. 😀

        • bad mood

          Well are you krisministeren is the short question. Or are you a BoLS troll bot, is the more sinister insinuation.

          • Nyyppä

            Apparently I am neither. What I am is amused about all the whining about CSM and CD having any sort of synergies.

      • LankTank

        It was a Echo Bot or something. I honestly don’t understand.
        GHOSTS. It was ghosts

  • krisministeren

    First time in over 15 years CSM and CD can actually synergize with each other, you know, as intended. GW did it’s job right with this one. Why are you b*tching about it?How about you all stop whining because you can no longer auto win chaos. Be glad that one more faction is challenging and thus more fun to play with and against

    • bad mood

      So one single stratagem is the entire reason that there is synergy? And if it doesn’t apply to codex CSM then they are completely out of synergy? Wow, so much synergy then.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. That’s pretty sad. It’d be cool if CSM and CD were more viable without crutching on one strat.

        • Sir Postalot

          There are quite a few obvious nasty tricks that are not so hidden in the new codex.

          • ZeeLobby

            Which is probably true but if one outshines them all, will you ever see them. This has always been a problem with GW systems. Their internal balance is always off. 8 wargear options but only 1 or 2 ever make sense.

          • Sir Postalot

            I’m not sure if this deep striking thingy is really the one that outshines the rest. It costs 2 command points and those aren’t as cheap for Chaos players as they are for loyalists. they can’t get them back or get more of them. There are a few stratagems that effectively double the dmg output of a specific unit these seem like a better usage of CP to me.

          • LankTank

            Especially a Chaos player who won’t have many as he has a LOW detachment

      • Sir Postalot

        No there is more synergy between these codexes. There are tons of buffs that stack between the units due to the precise wording that GW choose to use. This is just something that Bols article writers like to hype. It isn’t the most interesting one nor the most OP one. Plague bearers being able to do 6 dmg a hit, combined leadership shenanigans or the insane healing buffs of the GUO are all things that deserves more attention than this obscure scenario.

      • LankTank

        Umm no there is tonne of synergies. But people are suggesting removing the synergy between ALL keyword unless it’s faction due to the deep striking of 4 units. I mean tehre is tonne in the book, trees helping Obliterators, Word Bearers rolling 4D6 for summoning and bringing 2 units a time, Possessed finally getting within 9″. BUt because people are but hurt about Magnus and Morty they want the whole thing canned

    • Drpx

      Found Nyppa’s alt.

      • Sir Postalot

        Lady tank might also be one of his or her alts :

  • David Wallis

    I all for the dropping of a daemon lord of war. some things that you guys forget is the daemon force does not have any real shooting potential. what they do have is low toughness, low saves and low leadership…. but if they get something that could even the game up a little, god forbid. what needs to be changed by GeeDubs is who can use the command points. i.e your 3pt daemon battalion can only use 3 of your command points. that would make things a little more fair in my eyes.

  • Massawyrm

    >But the bottom line is that we KNOW this is not what GW intended with the Chaos Daemon dex.

    Yes, WE do. But it’s not what you think it is. This entire edition is about cross-pollination. Every single bit of it. (It helps sell models!) They created a very simple mechanic with keywords, carefully separated the two different types, and have built the entire codex power system around them. And every time an army gets a powerful combination, it is deemed *some kind of mistake*. It must be, right? This army does something scary that other armies can’t, just like the designers keep saying they want to do. But don’t worry, it’s a mistake, right?

    No. This is rules as intended. I’m willing to buy the idea that the Obliterators and DG Possessed FACTION Keywords were errors. That seems a little fishy (especially since the vanilla CSM dex Possessed lack the Daemon faction keyword.) But every unit in Chaos with the Daemon keyword not having access to CD stratagems after they’ve made it CRYSTAL FLIPPING CLEAR that Chaos stratagems work across codexes with all of the right keywords? No. Time and again they’ve reaffirmed we can use them that way. That’s the whole point of them. CSM affect DG which affect CD, as long as the keywords match.

    Cross codex powers and flexible detachment structures encourage players to buy models from allied armies they don’t already play. It encourages them to buy Datacards and new codexes. Eventually, it can get you hooked on a whole full size second army. All the while, it expands viable options for army builds, offering a chance to stave off monobuilds and boredom.

    But you’re right. It was probably a mistake. An army with very few shooting options in a shooting heavy edition probably wasn’t supposed to get the ability to drop scary stuff very close to the enemy. Why would they want that? Don’t cross the streams. That would be bad.

  • markdawg

    All this frustration stems from one point. IGOUGO if that didn’t exist then people wouldn’t care that you could do this. So many issues occur in this game because of it.

    When you can move shoot and assault with all your models before your opponent can move a model this creates the feel bad moments.

    When people get to smash your army before you can do anything this crushes interaction. You play a game with someone they are not meant to be bystanders to watch their army get crushed while your army rolls unopposed because of one dice roll to go first.

    I hear all the time my army was smashed by turn 2. 40k Still has IGOUGO. Maybe tweak the missions to only allow you to deploy half your army and turn 2 the rest walk on the board edge this may help.

    • Drpx

      Bring back null deployment and reserve rolls.

  • Solvagon

    Literally the first time a GW designer talked in public in depth about the ‘dex (during Warhammer Live) he mentioned that all the synergy was intended. Stop crying, it is far less broken than Word of the Phoenix, Gulliman, IG Warlord traits and Aquila, Celestine, the list goes on and on…

    • Drpx

      We card games now.

  • > But the bottom line is that we KNOW this is not what GW intended with the Chaos Daemon dex.

    If you want to argue that deepstriking a Lord of War using a stratagem is a dick move that shouldn’t be used outside tournaments, fine.

    If you want to argue that GW didn’t think all the combinations through properly, and that there should be an errata to nerf it, fine.

    But it’s not a twisted rationalisation for a stretched RAW interpretation; we literally have a Designer’s Commentary saying this _is_ what GW intended, with an example where a Herald from the Daemon faction can buff Possessed from the Heretic Astartes faction because the Possessed have the Daemon keyword.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

  • Matthew Elwert

    People need to relax. Deep striking Mortarion isn’t the problem. The problem is deep striking Morty and Magnus next to him. For 470 points you could deep strike 10 Space Wolves Terminators with storm shields and thunder hammers. For the points that Magnus cost you could deep strike a psyker with Veil of Time and Null Zone and maybe another HQ that lets re-roll hits. So, you’d play 10 juiced up terminators that re-roll charges, fight first and ignore inv. saves when the psyker is around. Oh, and you deep strike that for free since you just pack all of them in terminator armour. There is a counter for everything, there are balanced armies, there are elite armies, there are horde armies, there are alpha strike armies and there is certainly more crap to play than you can ever imagine. 40K isn’t perfect. Just live with it and make the best of it. Last tournament I played 4 Lords of War and a battalion and honestly while deep striking Magnus and Mortarion is nice, you do not really need it.

  • Jack

    So many cry babies about the deep striking. Get over it, accept it and work on your strategy, If you cannot defeat the deep strike, then sell your models and get away from the hobby because seriously, If you cannot kill the thing deep striking, then you suck.

    • Drpx

      Deep strike isn’t even that good this edition.

  • Sir Postalot

    Pl16 might be a bit low for it prevents all greater daemons from deepstiking. Perhaps cap it at 20

    • LankTank

      Just no LOW. Boom

      • Nyyppä

        LOW are just regular units now….

  • >>”But the bottom line is that we KNOW this is not what GW intended with the Chaos Daemon dex. Seriously?”

    Um yes. Yes this is exactly what the rules devs intended. They created a game that is fast and brutal and stuff starts dying in turn 1 and the game is over in turn 2 or 3 intentionally.

    The game designers have had interviews and there have been blog posts basically saying this is 100% their intent for both AOS and 40k.

    • Drpx

      So much this. I used to laugh at people who complained that it was all about going first and shooting the other guy off the table, now it’s more or less true.

      • That is unfortunately modern game design. Games that take longer than an hour are not desired and when you double that wiith the tournament community having a heavy hand in playtesting now, sandbagging is always something tourneys had to deal with and this helps with that.

        I say unfortunate because I miss games where movement was a big thing. That was part of the puzzle. Now the puzzle is in deckbuilding.

  • SilentPony

    Wait, since when to strategems from a codex apply to units outside that Codex? I can’t give a space wolf a blood angels strategem, even though they both share Imperium. Otherwise, hell yeah I want a death company wolf lord on a landspeeder

    • Apocryphus

      It comes down to what keywords the strategem references. There’s quite a few CSM strategems the daemons can’t use because it calls out Heretic Astartes, but the daemon strategems only call out Daemon or Daemon.

      • DeCold

        Actually some daemon strategems even require just Chaos Character, so you can use them even on Renegades.

        • Apocryphus

          Oh, yup, I forgot about those. At this point it feels extremely intentional that these strategems work with Chaos as a whole.

  • RAKSHA

    If you whant balance make GW delete deep strike from rules…and then everyone will be happy…I’m gonna deep strike bananas is that OK…haha…there is no end to this crap crying get over with this ..when AM was winning all biggest tournament everything was OK then.? ..the best is just to cry and shout how not balanced chaos is OMG OR MAYBE CHANGE LIST AND AT LEAST ONES START USING BRAIN TO WIN ..and I’m gonna drop 10 terminators on your head all Shields and hammers and then next 10 with combi weapons and wipe you in first turn you still gonna cry about one Primarch deep strike..lol.

  • LankTank

    What a load of trash, A Deepstriking Maulerfiend is too scary? A tonne of armies has the ability to have something scary to get into your face. Admech, Eldar, Tyranids. Why are people so afraid of Magnus and Morty? I have always put them down in one phase

  • Iggynous

    I think GW’s only mistake is engaging with the community, and publishing FAQs. Now, whenever something happens that upsets the noobs, they feel overly entitled and cry and cry on BOLS etc until GW changes something. Your enemy got stronger with their last codex?? Deal with it. Git Gud.

  • Chris Hilliard

    Last night I played a game of my T’au against a CSM list. Using Alpha Legion stratagems let my opponent put 40+ Cultists on the Relic in his movement phase. Then I got the fun of being hit with deepstriking Warp Talons, who got Warp Time and charged all my Fire Warriors and Commander. By the time I got to my first turn at the bottom of Turn 1 I had exactly 3 models not locked in combat to try and play a game with.

  • PovertyDistributor

    Absolute poppycock. The imperial guard FAQ directly contradicts this, as does the FAQ about using Heretic Astartes stratagems with Death Guard. This is absolutely intended by GW and fluffwise makes perfect sense, since the presence of mass daemons indicates a warpstorm in which things like teleporting warp entities is perfectly reasonable.

  • Nyyppä