40K: “Deepstriking” Lords of War Needs To Stop

A Lord of War just arrived 9″ from my army. Houston, we have a problem…

With the new Daemon’s Codex, Chaos has gotten a HUGE boost to their combat options in the form of Denizens of the Warp. This stratagem is making folks really question how the keywords work and if Games Workshop has intentionally (or accidentally) broken the game.

At first glance, bringing in a big heavy hitter from the warp is kind of funny. “Wait, I can DO that now? Heck ya!” So naturally folks want to try that out just for the novelty of it. But is it good for the game? What if people seriously try to use and abuse this strategy? Turns out that might not be a good thing at all.

“I’m a Daemon. Deal with it”

The Alpha Strike Factor

We’re 7th months into the new edition and folks are already building toward the Alpha Strike. This is a subject we’ve talked about before. It’s not going away and folks are dealing with it in their own ways. Unfortunately, the game itself is moving farther and farther towards this escalating Alpha Strike mentality. That has it’s problems but when were spitballing around the office Larry said it best:

“[The Alpha Strike] is boring and it ultimately drives players away. If an Alpha Strike means “you win” then why are we even playing?”

That’s a really good point. Why did we bother buying, building, and painting hundreds of dollars of miniatures – and spending obscene amounts of time doing all that – to have it not really matter on the tabletop? If you win the game on a single dice roll at the start of the game, then why did we bother playing in the first place? We should just play Craps for money in an alley!

“Paradoxically, players seem okay with a single die roll determining the fate of the game – as long as it happens at the END of the game and not at the beginning.”

So what does this have to do with a Lord of War and them Deepstriking? Because that’s the ultimate Alpha Strike! There is nothing larger and scarier to drop on/near/around your opponent than a Lord of War. There was a time, not so long ago, that people were upset that Blood Angels could Deepstrike a Land Raider. Everyone thought “well now this is just getting a little ridiculous.” Guess what – we just raised the bar even HIGHER now.

Something Has To Give

Look, we really like the Denizens of the Warp. We think it’s a great stratagem for Chaos Daemons to have. It “fixes” the issue of being able to reliably bring in a huge pack of daemons and get a charge off. That’s not the issue. The problem is that you CAN abuse it to bring in things that *maybe* shouldn’t be able to do that. A Lord of Skulls for example. Magnus and Mortarian are two more examples. Or better (or worse) yet why not all three? Because you can. That’s the real issue.

How can GW fix this? The simplest fix is rewording Denizens of the Warp. Have a caveat that it doesn’t apply to Lords of War. Or maybe it only works on infantry. I’m not sure – but the competative scene is already wanting a fix and something will have to give.

 

What do you think? Is Deepstriking a Lord of War a step too far? What fixes would you implement to curb this issue? Or is it totally fine? How are you dealing with the Alpha Strike?

  • Alpha strike and ending the game as soon as possible is the direction that the designers have pushed AOS and 40k. And it would seem that people love it.

    • zeno666

      Yeah, looks like it.
      So people can spend less time playing, and more time buying new stuff to win games.

      • Yep. That and they can get through their tournament without running out of time and having unfinished games. (the tournament thing is what I hear very often)

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          Thats competitive – Casual can life without this 😉

          • Carey_Mahoney

            Without 8th edition generally…

        • Drpx

          When I learned what “slow play” was, part of me died inside.

        • Jennifer Burdoo

          Since I don’t play tourneys, and I play to enjoy time with friends rather than to crush my opponent…

          • Unfortunately the devs enlisted the tournament crowd to help them develop the current edition, and the tournament crowd moulded the game to fit that side of the hobby. I say unfortunately because those that are not playing tournaments are getting a ruleset that is less optimum for them that deals with issues only encountered in tournaments.

            We don’t get slow play in non tournament games, for example. You have no time limit.

          • Max Westhoff

            That is true to some extend, however a big difference is, that – atleast to my knowledge – the tournament crowd got only the patrol/batallion etc with the troop requirement to test. At that point it was extremly balanced. Now that the rulebook is out and all the other detachments like vanguard, superheavy and airwing got released without having a troop detachment requirement, lists got extremly pushed to alpha strike.

          • Manuel Bateman

            it wouldnt make too much of a difference if you’d had to tie in a couple of horrors..

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            agreed. This tournament friendly ruleset is narrative and casual unfriendly. I’ve given up playing 8th, but I still watch with interest the games that happen at my club. Seems boring. People are slowly moving onto other games. Havent actually seen a game of 8th for a couple weeks now.

          • Rufus

            Are you being sarcastic? 8th edition is arguably the most narrative, balanced, casual play driven edition of W40k ever released. If you can’t make a narrative or casual game with your club you must be the least imaginative people on the face of this earth. Every ruleset has been designed around power level and fluff as much or more so than points and tournaments. There is more parity in this edition than in any other by a significant margin. Every army will receive a codex within a year (A F*ING YEAR) of the edition’s debut. Every single faction in the game has a chance to win every single game. GW isn’t just interacting with the community, they’re accepting advice and input on how to improve the game and implementing it within weeks!!! What do you miserable people want? If this doesn’t make you happy, what possibly could?

          • defensive

            This edition is built for power gamers and tournament play, and easy access for new players, but there is very little in it for the long term casual player.
            So far this is the only edition where you can put Custodes and Daemons into the same list,and suffer 0 penalties. Very narrative driven.
            The only casual play part about it, is that it’s easy to pick up. Which makes it perfect for the beginner, but lacks depth for long term play, unless you are constantly on the edge of the tournament meta.

            The “Do whatever you want” mentality of this edition makes combos so easy to build up for tournament players, and it makes it very easy for a new player to just take one look at the rules, and have a decent understanding of it.
            But for the player that just wants to play a game or two every week, and wants to have fun with it, its limited. There is only so much enjoyment you can get out of the limited ruleset if you aren’t constantly changing around your army.

          • Rufus

            Sure if you want to be a nob you can create armies with opposing factions. Stratagems like DotW provide an active incentive not to however. And if you actually are a player who cares about casual narrative games, why would you? Just to prove a point?

            If you feel limited, change your units, or your unit composition, or your deployment strategy, or your use of stratagems, or your missions, or play with open war cards, or play Planet Strike, or play Cities of Death, or play Stronghold Assault, or better yet design your own Missions and weekly campaign with your friends.

            This edition is anything but limiting. You are sadly mistaken if you expect me to have anything but contempt for the facile mind that can’t use the myriad tools this game system has provided us to create interesting games.

          • defensive

            Well then it’s not narrative driven. It’s only narrative driven as much as you make it, which is less that it’s been in every past edition, where you could only take one faction, or if you took allies, there would be a chart for the rules that went along with it.

            And sure, you could do all of those things, but if you are bored with the core game, you generally don’t want to. It lacks the depth, and all these changes are little more than superficial.
            And I don’t find this edition limiting at all. In fact, I find it the opposite. The openness of the rules make it hard to enjoy.
            The most fun I’ve had with the game in the past few months, was a 1,250pt patrol only game. The limiting nature of it, and actually having to work around them, made it fun, and reminded me of previous editions.
            But the majority of 8th edition games aren’t like this. They just end up shallow and boring compared to previous editions, even though it started out well.

          • Rufus

            “But for the player that just wants to play a game or two every week, and wants to have fun with it, its limited. There is only so much enjoyment you can get out of the limited ruleset if you aren’t constantly changing around your army.”
            -defensive

            30 minutes later…
            “And I don’t find this edition limiting at all. In fact, I find it the opposite. The openness of the rules make it hard to enjoy. ”
            -defensive

            You’re killing me smalls

          • defensive

            That would be “Limited” not “Limiting”
            There is a LIMITED amount of rules, which leads to the game not being very LIMITING

          • Simon Bates

            How are you putting Custodes and Daemons into the same list? They don’t share any faction keywords.

          • Koonitz

            Simon Bates is mostly right, here. But, to be sure, if you do not go battleforged, you are not restricted and can, then, add both Custodes and Daemons. However, by not being battleforged, you get 0 command points. None. Zilch. Nadda. Not even the 3 basic for being battleforged.

            That’s not exactly “0 penalties”.

            Otherwise, Simon is right. To be battleforged, ALL models across ALL detachments MUST share at least one faction keyword. As Custodes and Daemons have zero common faction keywords, you cannot combine them and remain battleforged.

          • LankTank

            How can custodes and daemons be in the same list? o.O

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            its not good for narrative for many reasons.

            Firstly all the cinematic stuff like scatter of blasts and deep strikers, the vehicle damage chart and building damage chart, random reserves and so on are gone, so there is less fun stuff happening. We just count the steady grinding away of wounds, no more lone melta strikes blowing stuff up, vindicator blasts scattering onto your own troops etc etc.

            Secondly the style of games has changed from manoeuvre to static gun lines or just a bundle rush for alpha strike charges. Games ending in tablings makes missions irrelevant. The loss of damage facings and change to model removal makes outflanking and envelopment irrelevant.

            Lastly there is no realism, and without realism the narrative feels wrong, pointless, just like a game rather than a simulation of a novel or film. So many rules in 7th give stupid results. All the units feel the same and are lacking flavour.

          • bad mood

            While I have to admit that 8th has it’s flaws, it’s far from as bleak as you make it look to be. For me, it sounds more like you or your game group clearly lacks any imagination or actually looks for flaws to have something to be bitter about (“Resignation” 😉 ). Any single thing you mentioned of previous editions were as much fun as they were terrible. How often did a Demolisher scatter away from a target only 6 inches away, to end in a harmless explosion, or even worse among your own counter charging troops? The gunner worse than the most cursed strikers in football. Strategies, units and sometimes even whole armies have been deemed overpowered in any edition and it takes only a decent amount of empathy to realise if oneself is the perpertrator of such things. Rules are not set in stone, but mere guidelines and any functioning hobby group should have “houserules”, for not only is 40K way too vast and complex to be remotely balanced, but also it shows that there is active discourse between humans. As an example, a rise in alpha strikes that makes it clear that it cripples the narrative can be avoided by the player being reflective on their own list, after all you come here to play narative and not competetive. If they fail to be, tell them. The mission can be changed accordingly, as to delete the tabled=lost condition and simply go by victory points. Even if that fails you can still redesing the mission or deployment rules. The “weaker” player can get more points to begin with. There are so many possibilities. The one one thing you should not do, is to simply expect a ruleset to cater for all your needs and lean back in your chair, blaming others that it doesn’t work as you want it. After all the first gamers made up their own rules from 0 to begin with, take an example of that.

          • LankTank

            Honestly knights main aspect of tge hobby is whinging. Incessantly

    • ledha

      I don’t agree for AOS. Going into alpha strike mean you can eat a double turn just afteer, which is dangerous. Charging don’t mean striking first, so, while doing a general charge turn 1 in 40k is great, in aos… not so much because half of your unit will take samage before attacking. And units are WAY more resilient in aos because of several factors : rend -2/ and -3 are VERY rare, mortal wounds are blocked by easy to have invulnerable save, ranged weapon are short. So yeah, no sorry. 40k is the only suffering the crap alpha strike

      • I’ve seen a good share of AOS games ended on alpha strike turn 1 shenanigans. It may not be as potent as 40k but its still potentially game ending which encourages people to continue to do it. If it weren’t a powerful tool it would not be as commonly seen I wouldn’t think.

        • Manuel Bateman

          its not really that common.. in fact some players deceide to let their opponent go first to get a chance for a fdouble turn (kinda won a tournamemt like that)

          • I guess it depends on the location and what the people at that location are doing. My location is strongly alpha strike. The double-turn is absurdly broken as well though, which is one reason why I won’t play AOS in anything other than a for fun way.

  • orionburn III

    Our group is to the point already where we’re saying “hey, can you not bring X, Y, Z.” Armies with both Magnus and Morty are not up their in the fun factor. I still think a good option would be to go back to 7th ed rules for units off the table. If they start in reserves then they don’t come in until turn 2.

  • Heinz Fiction

    So this is trick #143 to to get your strongest unit in the enemies face turn 1? I kinda lost track…

  • Genesis

    Hmmm….heard no one cry about the outflanking Astra Militarum Lord of war. This should be reglemented too

    • Sir Postalot

      WAIT your tournament scene isn’t just outflanking baneblades ?

  • Solvagon

    Come on. Alpha Strike lists rely on beating bad lists and bad deployment. If you are not bringing enough scouts, it is your own fault for losing to it. It is a one-dimensional tactic, and it is beatable. Don’t act like it is not. No deepstriking unit should – in the first turn – come within 18 inches of anything valuable. If that is not the case, it is on you not preparing your army in advance.

    It is actually very realistic – oh, you do not have recon squads and explore the battleground? You gonna get ambushed and ripped apart.

    • Munn

      So what do armies like necrons or harlequins do who don’t have scounts?

      • Solvagon

        Necrons have Shard of the Deceiver who is probably better than what other armies have. Harlequins can run Eldar scouts.

        • defensive

          So the solution to this tactic, is to only play certain races?

          • Solvagon

            Yeah, the solution to an edition that rewards allying factions to be competitive is to ally factions. This is exactly what Chaos does. And Imperium. And Eldar. The other Xenos races will be very likely just as competitive when their Codices hit. I won’t deny that they are at a suboptimal point at the moment.

          • Strategery.

            > munn asks a race-specific question
            > solvagon offers race-specific solutions

            what are you talking about?

      • Strategery.

        i use a gauss pylon and usually put it somewhere near the corner. i use 3 units of scarabs for deepstrike zone denial. i have no complaints when facing deepstrike heavy lists.

        i don’t play harlequins so i can’t answer that half of the question. surely there are some harley players that also use their brains?

    • Dave Satterthwaite

      have you actually played the game? many armies simply don’t have the bodies to string out across the table to deny drops like that. eldar scouts in harlequin lists? again, have you played 40k?

      • Solvagon

        Yeah I did. I also wait to complain until I played a couple of matches, contrary what the article does and 90% of commenters do. Did not play vs Harlequins though, mainly Imperium, Chaos, Necrons. Maybe the Rangers are too expensive at 12 pts, but still, the option is there and at 3+ in cover and -1 to hit they are at least not totally squishy.

        I mean, I get that not having a codex sucks, but nerfing everything else til it hits is not really a fix.

        • euansmith

          A denied flank is going to work against Deep Striking to; though it might make reaching some objectives a bit problematic later in the game.

      • LankTank

        You dont cover the whole table, you cover vulnerable areas. If your whole army is vulnerable then you have a problem. Personally I think alpha strike players are the nost vulnerable to being alpha striked in return as they rely on 1 or 2 units rather than an army wide balance

    • LankTank

      I rekon! Also noone was complaining when magnus simply warptimed into alpha strike, but now if you spend command points doing the same thing its a problem?

  • Tshiva keln

    Are Magnus and Morty in the Daemon book? I thought you could only use stratagems on units with the same faction? The needing of the Daemon keyword being a secondary requirement on this one.

    • Solvagon

      The Designer Commentary states that the distinction between Faction Keywords and Keywords is only relevant during list building and disappears as soon as the game starts.

      The Stratagems ask for a DAEMON UNIT, which is a requirement that not only Mortarion and Magnus, but also Daemon Princes, Foetid Bloat-Drones, Possessed, Myphitic Blight-Haulers, Mutilators, Obliterators, Heldrakes, Forge/Maulerfiends, Plagueburst Crawlers and the Lord of Skulls meet.

      • Michael Linke

        Technically the Avatar of Khaine is also a Daemon (it has the Daemon Keyword) but, at the moment, I don’t believe there’s a way to include one in the same army as a Chaos Daemons detachment.

        • Talos2

          I believe it matters whether it’s in capital letters or not. I’m guessing the avatars daemon is lower case?

          • Solvagon

            No, it does not matter. It does not share a Faction keyword with any chaos unit, therefore it is not possible to include it in an army that includes a Chaos Daemons Detachment.

          • Koonitz

            I believe he’s making a rhetorical point. The Avatar counts as a “Daemon” as (I cannot confirm, as I don’t have the books on me) he has the keyword. As such, IF he could be included in the list, he COULD be the target of the stratagem.

            The point is that it’s silly, and outlandish, but TECHNICALLY does work, on the assumption that he is included in the list.

          • Solvagon

            Yeah sure, that’s a fair point. (And yes, he has the keyword).

        • Sir Postalot

          You can’t can’t outside open or narrative

      • Sir Postalot

        Could you or anybody else link to this Designer Commentary ? I would love that if it is true : )

      • Trasvi

        The other thing is that a lord of skulls is legitimately Daemon faction. Same with Obliterators.

        • Brattak

          Did they change it? I just checked the Index: Chaos and Obliterators as well as the Lord of Skulls don’t have the Daemon faction-keyword. They only have the keyword daemon.

          • Geronimo32509

            There is no difference between the two once the game starts. The strategim is used during the game, so they are viable targets for it.

      • Brattak

        I am pretty sure there will be an FAQ about this, where they will state, that Denizens of the Warp only applies to the Daemon faction-keyword. This would effectively solve the Lord of War issue.
        Maybe they even add further restrictions to this stratagem.

    • Kabal1te

      Officially as stated in either the CSM or DG FAQ, having one detachment of x faction gives you access to all stratagems in that codex, which can then be used on qualifying units from codex y so long as they have the right keywords for the strategem

      • Cohiba Rafael

        This will be FAQ’d as I stated before in previous post. I understand what DG FAQ saids but this is going to fall in the category like Genestealer Cult in the Tyranid FAQ. Frontline Gaming has already hinted that this will be the case as I expected. I think they are being nice and giving a heads up to players going to LVO. We should expect to see the FAQ probably before the event.

        • Michael Linke

          They’ve hinted that you shouldn’t plan to deep strike your primarchs at the LVO. How that’s accomplished in the rules is unknown. It could just as easily be a maximum Power Level rating for the 2 CP version of the strategem to rule out Magnus and Mortarion.

          • Cohiba Rafael

            See Tyranid FAQ and I believe it will be the same when describing “Daemon Unit”. If I am wrong then great for me but I doubt it. Agree to disagree but we will know soon enough.

  • RAKSHA

    So it’s OK to have Guliman who has reincarnation suit and how much points he cost? If you play properly you will not be able to hit this bustard till he will be on your face but that’s OK yes..and now you crying because demons have lol deep strike..and how many points cost 3 Lords of war you still need to have something on the table to start with ..OMG end of the world..if you know you gonna face those deploy properly and let them come ..I’m sorry but at the moment you don’t need to use them to smash your opponents in first turn lots off more units who can do this so what is the problem really is not unit is rule witch alow you to teleport to battle so close to enemy ..old rules you have chance to not get in there at all or not where you whant scatter dice…8th edition rules are simple but they are problem and players who know how to use it will abuse them ..

    • Mike Forrey

      Yeah i have to question anyone crying over this. Bobby G is still a WAY bigger issue IMO.

      In all honestly though the power of the first turn playing an Alpha Strike army is just getting ridiculous. Oddly enough with some proper cover rules we wouldn’t even be talking about this issue.

  • Dennis J. Pechavar

    My group solved this issue with one simple rule. No Lords of War in games less than 2000. We found that limiting, or outright removing, LoW made the game a great deal more enjoyable for everyone. Will there still be arms race issues? Yes but the biggest balance issues have been Primarchs, super Heavy vehicles and most of us(my group) would prefer to not deal with it. If they are your cup of tea then good on you and I hope you have an amazing game. I hate them in non apocalypse games so this makes me happy.

    • Rob brown

      Just did a 1200 point game with my opponent using Mortarion. Neither of us enjoyed it. My opponent was frustrated that I annihilated the rest of his army and I was frustrated that Morty couldn’t be scratched without throwing my entire army at him for three rounds. Instead I ignored him… not particularly satisfying either way.

      Limiting Lords of war – at least to opponents consent – in games less that 2000 is a great way to go. iMHO they should never have been made part of regular detachments

    • Koonitz

      Personally, I think Forge World’s method is the perfect compromise. Lords of War cannot, combined, be more than 25% of your force’s points cost.

      Thus, at 2,000 points, you cannot spend more than 500 points on your Lord of War (Knights will fit in, but most bigger things will be out). At 1,500 points, you’re down to 375 points, so even Guilliman is out (I believe he is 380, thanks to Chapter Approved).

      This would also encourage larger point games to fit those sweet Lords of War into your game.

      • Karru

        Actually, the FW Lord of War ruling is no LoW may be included in games below 2000pts AND it can’t be over 25% of your army. I prefer that system myself.

        • Koonitz

          Eh, fair. I missed that part. Personally, I rarely see 30k games less than 2500 points. There are so many ridiculously expensive units in 30k that it’s easy to have an army of 2500 points be equal in model count to an average 40k 2000 point army, or smaller (ie: Land Raiders/Spartans with Flare Shields, elite Terminator units, et cetera).

          • Karru

            Yeah, in 30k you can get away with bigger games easily since destructive weapons are more common and Marine vs Marine games have relatively low model count compared to 40k armies that aren’t Marines. Games can be much faster.

    • Munn

      ‘Hey, was there a baby in that bathwater?’ ‘Eh, who gives a crap.’

  • Dan Brown

    40K went through this numerous times before. Over powered units),. When vehicles became a main stay, then with Dreadnoughts, then with super heavies and then with Knights. Even Daemons had a time when they ruled the (table top) world. Stuff people struggled to cope with.

  • Luca Battisti

    So, now that Celestine is not the only piece that can move half the board in one turn it needs to stop.
    It probably will I guess.

  • Davis Centis

    GW, theoretically, has someone that can remember that they have a bunch of folks running around whom are pretty memorable that also have the “Daemon” keyword. Only way I can see to fix it is to take the “Daemon” keyword away from some of the CSM units. If it’s too powerful, undo that change, and make it that there’s a PL cap on what you can bring in with the stratagem.

  • Rob brown

    The issue is allowing stratagems linked to one detachment being used on units not from that detachment. If this was stopped then the majority of BS would end.

    At the end of the day, players can’t absolve themselves from responsibility on this. If you take the detachments just to get access to stratagems to combine with someone else, you’re abusing the game.

    GW you need to put a stop to this!

    In the meantime, show your opponent respect when selecting an army. If you stock up on Lords of War when your opponent has none, expect to find people reluctant to play you.

    • Chris Spano

      You aren’t abusing the game though, that’s explicitly how they wanted it to be played. They even FAQ’d it to confirm that this is intentional.

      • Rob brown

        We can agree to disagree. Just because something is possible it doesn’t mean it should be done and certainly not as part of everyday games. Try everything once, but don’t subject friends to this BS every time you play.

        I don’t care what’s happens in tournaments. It represents a tiny but vocal slice of the game.

        • Solvagon

          So you really do not need to cry for fixes on the internet, since you do not care how high-level play works.

          • Rob brown

            Ha, I’m fine with people playing games of all types, but if you think there’s anything elevated or inherently better about playing in a tournament you’re a kidder.

            I have a problem that stratagems that were originally billed as being a reward for having a themed (one Codex) army are now accessible to anyone having a single detachment which lets be honest can cost peanuts in points.

            I don’t like the way that is going. Too much like formations, with players taking a few extra units outside of a FOC to gain access to some crazy abilities.

    • As said by several people when this is complained about, it is not abuse of the game because the designers want this to be how the game is played.

    • Dooms Day

      Urm the dark angel Stratagem wouldn’t work then….

    • Karru

      Got some bad news for you buddy, everything is working as intended. This is 8th edition, they wanted it to be like this, big armies, fast games.

      • Koonitz

        Mmmm, Horus Heresy….

    • Solvagon

      No, you are playing a beautiful game that is designed to build synergetic lists to it’s full potential.

      At the end of the day, players can’t absolve themselves from playing bad lists with poor strategy while still expecting to win in a competitive environment. If you wanna play kitchen table, do it – great if it is fun for you.

      But with that attitude there will always be some thing that you think is cheap just because you are not willing to put in the effort to beat it. If there would be no counterplay to these strategies, GW would need to step in. But there are a ton of countermeasures available, so use them. Or don’t expect to have the same chances at winning as everyone else.

  • Yet again this is blown out of all proportion!

    Heaven forbid that chaos get anything that is slightly good! Has anyone played against guard recently? Or Nids? No ones crying foul that Nids can easily deepstrike half their army for free but suddenly chaos daemons coming from the warp and the sky is falling!

    Get a grip

    People need to learn to deploy properly!

    • Munn

      Chaos are statistically the 2nd best army in the game right now. You’re whole faction is OP bullgak and should just be deleted from the game.

      • LankTank

        So op that its 2nd? Man salty salty. Guess we know who got but hurt by a chaos primarch. Still a bit raw buddy?

    • LankTank

      Right?

  • Drpx

    I’m gonna take a wild guess and say it was the “competitive scene” that wanted deep striking to be a nice, reliable thing that happened on Turn One…

    • Koonitz

      Considering many narrative missions have rules for random reserves, some as part of a universal special rule, some with mission specific reserves. Many with rules straight out of 7th Ed.

      Yeah, you’re probably right.

    • I’d say you’re 100% right. It helps keep the games shorter so tournament time limits can be held to.

      It also combats the omnipresent complaints about how shooting is stronger than melee and how thats not fair.

  • GridlineRacer

    Thematically it works well with these guys tearing through the warp to arrive on the battlefield. Sadly though I think it shows further that GW failed to address the demon forces as a whole and simply tried to make them competitive by using overpowered stratagems. A list should be competitive before stratagems and then gets a few bonus’s by using them. Denizens is the go to now. Lists will be built to get the number of command points you need to put everyone possible in the warp. I tried it recently and my opponent was horrified at the idea of Mortarion and a Bloodthirster coming in from deep strike but both failed their charges (no command points left for re-rolls as they were all spent on denizens and the Khorne re roll was unlicky). It was a close game despite the ‘gimmick’ of denizens and at least the bloodletters didn’t get shot back to hell immediately (that happened on turn 2).

  • Iggynous

    I hope GW ignores articles like this…

    This is nothing new, especially for chaos: they could already get a LoW in your face for a turn 1 charge using Warptime.

    This has nothing to do with Denizens of the Warp, and everything to do with people who can’t combat Alpha Strike. If you can’t deal with Alpha Strike 7 months down the line, the problem is with you.

    Adapt. Improvise. Overcome.

    • Karru

      So you have found a way to counter all Alpha Strike lists there are? Would you care to share it?

      • Solvagon

        In the context of this article, “Alpha Strike” refers to deep striking units with serious melee and short range strenght. By playing a significant amount of bodies and bubblewrapping your important units while simultaneously deploying lots of scouts, you can push the opposing deep strike units so far away from your key units that this will not be an issue turn one.

        • Karru

          So people wait until turn two once they have killed your bubblewrap and then hit you with the DS units. Either they do that or they just adapt themselves by bringing it closer and then using multiple different rules they have access to in order to move past the bubblewrap and then charge what they want.

          Besides, you do that and then come across a list which utilises ranged Alpha Strike, then you are pretty much gimped since your army is meant to protect against DS/Melee Alpha Strike as bubblewrapping does nothing at that point.

          • Solvagon

            Or you will move your army further up the board while enjoying at least 500 points more firepower than your opponent and ripping their anchors to shreds. Having a quarter to 3/4 of your army in reserve has real risks, and people are acting like it does not.

            Don’t get me wrong, deep striking is STRONG (mainly because people can’t shoot at you first). But people in this comment section are acting like it is an unstoppable murder auto-win button, and it definitely is not.

          • Karru

            I am more amused by the fact that people think it isn’t working as intended while in reality it is working precisely as the developers wanted it to work.

          • Solvagon

            Yeah, I agree. I think the point I was trying to make is more that it is an interesting tool and forces strategic adoption instead of a way to make the game quicker and simpler (like some posters have claimed).

          • Sir Postalot

            This case isn’t about ranged alpha strike. Its about melee monsters deepstriking. Ranged alpha strike is really hard to counter outside null deploy tricks. But you don’t need this stratagem for ranged aplha and this isn’t really the best army to do it with. Imp or xenos flyers are and all sorts of other well known shooty option are superior to it.

      • Sir Postalot

        Easy just to counter alpha strike big melee monsters. Just bubble wrap your army in grots or equivalent. They will have to be 9″ outside of those critters, giving you 2 more turns of whatever you want to do before they hit your real targets.

      • Strategery.

        deep strike zone denial using cheap units, way easier to do this edition than previous ones. http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8db2126032f0d41c1290760e578dd15266cace7c5c98a0f0f642354fcefbfe5.jpg

        • Way easier and still yet as dumb kinda. I feel like everyone is telling everyone else to bubble-wrap. But why should that be mandatory?

          • Koonitz

            I don’t want to play with a goalie on my hockey team. Can’t I just play with 6 players on the ice, instead?

            When you’re playin’ with kids at the local outdoor arena, sure, why not? Do whatever. When you’re in the NHL, it’s kinda needed.

            Certain playstyles don’t work in a tournament scenario, because you need to expect tournament builds. That’s just a fact of life.

            Don’t like it, don’t go to tournaments/play in the NHL. I don’t.

            To either, really. I don’t really like hockey that much.

          • Neither do I. But the “meta” is kind of the reason why I basically didn’t play for a few years by now…

      • Iggynous

        Search “alpha strike” in BoLS. Search “beating alpha strike 40k” in Google. Search “download google chrome” into Yahoo.

        Personally, I just castle; hiding multiple Leman Russes behind hordes of troops.

    • Munn

      Unless you play an army that doesn’t have the tools to deal with deepstriking primarchs, at which point go f*** yourself, right?

      • Sir Postalot

        It isn’t about deepstriking primarchs its about all the other things that would likely be removed from the toolbox of this army if this would be disallowed.

        • Price Vanderburg

          I’m curious what else gets removed from the Demons toolbox if they can’t deepstrike Lords of War?

          • Solvagon

            If they revert the Designers Commentary ruling on keywords, we will lose Daemon Engines, and CSM Daemons (Possessed, Oblits, DPs) getting buffed by Loci, Auras and Psychic Powers. No Miasma of Pestilence on Nurgle Oblits, no Blades of Putrefaction on Possessed, no +1 Str on Bloatdrones etc.

      • Strategery.

        are you familiar with this tactic AM has been using since the dawn of time?

        LPT: it works with every army

        http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8db2126032f0d41c1290760e578dd15266cace7c5c98a0f0f642354fcefbfe5.jpg

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          Not every army. This works well with armies with access to cheap units but armies likes Deathwing, Ravenwing, Grey Knights, Harlequins, ie elite armies won’t have such access. I get what you’re trying to say but it only works if you don’t build for elite army style.

  • Jennifer Burdoo

    Personally, I’d rather not have Stratagems at all. For the same reason I don’t like the way objectives used to work, where you had to bounce from objective to objective every turn. It’s too random and it feels like playing a card game.

    I did start out playing the relatively simpler 3rd edition, though…

  • Thundoring2025

    Warptiming Magnus or Morty turn one was a real thing before this. Alpha Strike is serious in this game now. I know at my shop if you don’t get turn one you pretty much lose. However if we agree up front that we are playing fluffy this happens hardly ever.

  • KingAceNumber1

    The Daemons errata is going to make that strat work on faction keyword daemons only, similar to how GSC and Nids work now. It’s not that big a deal.

    • Sir Postalot

      These sort of articles kinda are GW reads them. BOLS going all crazy and rearing up the public did have some effect in the past. There have been quite a few needlessly harsh nerfs that where in line with these sort of articles.

  • Sir Postalot

    [ANGRY SCREAMING MODE]
    BOLS PLEASE DON”T RUIN MY ARMY AGAIN BY ANGERLY DEMANDING NERFING FAQS LIKE YOU DID WITH MY OTHER ARMIES 🙁 !!
    [/ANGRY SCREAMING MODE]]
    Sure the synergy between CSM and Daemons allows you to deepstrike a LOW does this happen in a lot of games ?
    No, it doesn’t. Have you played that many games that it NEEDS TO STOP. No of course not and if it does then this is most likely not the only issue in that game so please stop pretending that it does.
    [Edit] Seriously how many of you have faced this issue of LOW that keep deepstriking next to you every game ?

    • Andreas Noche

      Soooo, not being able to deepstrike a LOW invalidates your army (otherwise the pre-rant would not apply)?

      And you ask, if it happens often enough, so that it´s justified to invalidate your specifically tailored army?

      The moment people build armies around this (not as a gagdet or something but just with this stratagem in mind) it already happens too often. Or, to word it another way: People will have to face this every game they play against you. And that´s seems already too much for my taste at least.

      • Sir Postalot

        Na that isn’t the issue. I don’t mind it at all if they would just fix that. Its the way these things are usually “fixed” GW isn’t going to just say LOW can’t use stratagem X. They usually fix it by making a minor change in a core mechanic that changes all shorts of interactions that might be the glue that holds a more unusual army together. In this case it might just be all the CSM daemon synergies that make mutilators and other rarely used daemon CSM units playable.

    • Munn

      It happens in EVERY GAME that has people who want to WIN in it. I’ve already dealt with it 6 games across 2 tournaments.

      • Solvagon

        No, it does not. The Codex has been out for two days.

        People who want to win play Eldar with Yvraine and tons of Dark Reapers. Or Guard with lots of indirect shooting. Or spam Alpha Legion Oblits.

        People who want to win do not rely on their opponent being too clueless or too lazy to deploy properly.

        • Price Vanderburg

          I mean screening doesn’t work against Morty deepstriking with Warp Time since he just hops the screen.

          • Solvagon

            He can’t charge where there is no room for him. Also a lot needs to go right – get WT off, do not get denied, find a spot close enough for the stuff you wanna kill, make the charge.

            I’m not saying it won’t happen, but it is not 100% every game guaranteed to hit something important turn one.

      • Sir Postalot

        Na this isn’t about WAAC and not about deep striking LOW. My fear is that they will hit other mechanics of the army by disallowing this silly trick that I (and most players to be honest) couldn’t care less about.

      • Sir Postalot

        “admittedly with friends based on codex spoils but still” We all know that these codex release hype how crazy can it get sort of things aren’t actual games. They can be fun but are not a good indicator for the actual games we play.

  • quaade

    The simple solution to DotW is as you say, disallow to work on LoW.

    As for removing that alpha strike, that requires a radical shift frim IGOUGI to Alternate Unit Activation.

    • Bonemaw

      common I need to be able to Deepstrike my LoW detachment with Morty, Magnus and LoS 😀

      would be fun to see the opponent piss them self! at least the first 50 times

      • Koonitz

        Nah, I’d just shrug, laugh, congratulate you on a game “well” won, shake your hand, then there wouldn’t be another 49 times as I’d refuse to play you any more.

      • quaade

        Just reading that sucked out all the fun for me – _-

    • Karru

      The hilarious thing actually is that you don’t need to do anything as radical as go away from IGOUGO system to fix the Alpha Strike problem. Considering that my group has yet to face this issue after our fixes and we use the normal IGOUGO system, it is very achievable and does not require a complete rewrite of the rules.

      • quaade

        Personal anecdotes are the least reliable evidence. All it takes is for one to adopt Alpha Strike as a tactics, and be succesfull with it, and that will start an arms and the pretty much goes from to being a chore.

        People play to have fun in one way or the other, noone plays to lose. Everyone wants to feel like they have a fair chance.

        I saw gaming groups decimated in 7th edition. I stopped playing myself, as I played one of those armies, who had no chance of winning against a player of equal skill.
        Sure, I could win against someone incompetent. I just find no fun in that.

        • Karru

          The beauty of not playing in tournaments and instead play with groups is that you can pretty easily sit down and start discussing problems you have with the game and as such fix them. This is what my group did, we sat down and went over the glaring problems the game had and got rid of them. What remained was a fun experience for everyone, from narrative gamer to competitive one.

          We do this for all editions, so I am just going to label out some from 7th we did. First we got rid of the biggest issue that more or less destroyed that edition, Formations and multiple detachments. Next, we put limits on Super Heavies, they are not allowed in games below 2000pts. With just those two changes, the game improved insanely in the fun factor as people couldn’t gain free rules and upgrades from just playing a specific faction any more. Also, Allies were always “Allies of Convenience” for the sake of rules that interact with friendly models.

          We also reduced the effectiveness of Psychic Powers, but no need to go into great detail about that, you get the idea.

          In 8th edition we started to do some more “drastic” changes to game mechanics in order to have more fun. Cover rules and Night Fighting was brought over from 5th edition, rules that allow you to move again after your movement phase were nerfed (such as Warp Time) so that with it you can advance and charge on the same turn, but it doesn’t work if you just came out of reserves.

          CP is earned via Objectives not army building, detachments are limited to Battalion only in regular games unless both sides agree to change stuff, characters that were unnecessarily split from units were placed back and their abilities were changed where needed.

          Those are just some of the changes we made, but once again, a massive surge in the fun factor was noticed when the main problems were fixed. We play variety of armies and have players of varied playstyles, not a single complaint has been made yet that the game feels too restrictive or that someone is just rolling over someone due to bad rulewriting.

          • quaade

            That makes you more tightknit than most other groups and it also makes it nigh impossible for newcommers ro join the group as they have to navigate many house rules.

            Unless your group regularly eases in new players, you’re vulnerable to sudden atricion. So while it work great now, I’ve seen firsthand what happens when a nichegroup have life happen.

  • fenrisful2

    I think rolling for units solves this, however the old mishap chart was bad, instead let the player rolling for the unit choose what mishap they will suffer before rolling. Some units could even have a specific mishap.
    Scouts may be more prone to be delayed rather than loosing models from the unit, which would be more common to daemons, other units like orks may instead be less accurate and scatter away from the intended position.
    I think that would bring some extra flavour to the game.

    Another thing would be to make charge distances a set value, if you would make a unit walk 6″ advance 6″ then charge 6″ and normally you can’t both advance and charge or possibly advancing gives both -1 to hit in shooting & melee.

    Some fast units could still make alpha charges, but they probably could do that without deepstriking anyway.

    • Solvagon

      It is simply not possible to get important units charged turn one if you build your army to deny that.

  • Jack

    I deep striked a Bloodthirster in and he still got dropped next turn. I dont think they should get rid of it at all

    • Solvagon

      Yeah, probably 90% of the folks whining over this have not played a single game where that happened. For Nurgle’s sake, the codex is out since saturday…

    • Munn

      Deepstrike something that’s not total garbage and then let’s talk.

      • Sir Postalot

        LOL like Loyalist or Xenos stuff ; )

      • Jack

        You must be doing something wrong, cause everyone ive played has had a good strategy against the deepstriking

  • Frank O’Donnell

    Tournaments don’t use power levels they use points right ? so if you play be raw this stratagem shouldn’t work in tournament play 🙂

    • Munn

      Unless you know how to read, at which point you realize that just because you’re using points to determine army building, doesn’t the powerlevel rating on your character sheet just floats away into the nether. Whether you play powerlevel or points doesn’t change the fact that Magnus is at least 9+ powerlevel.

      • Koonitz

        Summoning also works on power level, despite you still having to pay Matched Play points for the unit. You don’t suddenly have to beat the point cost of the unit on 3D6 to summon in Matched Play.

        It’s straight forward, as Munn said. Power Levels still exist, and the units retain their power levels.

      • Frank O’Donnell

        There are lots of things on the sheet my friend, if you don’t take say a plasma pistol then you don’t have it just because its on the sheet now do you ?

        So if your not playing using power levels why should they count just because their on the sheet ? & if this stratagem is becoming a problem then that would be an easy way of fixing it, as for reading I can read very well thank you very much 🙂

        • Koonitz

          On the other hand, you don’t go at your datasheet with an eraser when you DON’T take that plasma pistol, do you? The item and stats are still listed there (in some cases. Let us assume this is one such case).

          This is the same with power level. The power level of the unit is still listed, and easily calculated. Thus, when a rule, such as that stratagem, or summoning, references power levels, you can easily look it up on the datasheet, because it’s still printed there.

          That you CHOOSE to use an alternate method of building your list (matched play points, which are a completely separate section of the book) is irrelevant.

        • Geronimo32509

          Lol what? Power Level is listed on a unit’s data sheet. It is there whether you are using points or power level. If a rule references power level, then you refer to the unit’s data sheet to see if it applies. Simple as that. Don’t twist yourself into all sorts of mental knots trying to overthink this one.

  • eMtoN

    I agree. All these people complaining about alpha strike – get some LoS blocking terrain on the table. It seriously changes the dynamics.

  • Mário Martins

    Cry more Bells cry more……

  • Peripheral

    The rule fits the fluff and really, anytime someone brings a Primarch to a game with out a matching primarch, the game should be over. Fluffwise.

    Couple of simple fixes to this and alfa strike in general. Allow a random chance to fail on DSing, with psykers helping increase the odds of failure.

    For Alpha strike, go to player 1 move, player 2 move, player 1 fire, player 2 fire, etc. turn order OR on turn 2, the player who went second in Turn 1 now goes first for the rest of the game.

  • Pete McGwire

    One thing it does do is kind of forces you to bring a large number of chaff units to screen your army, sort of like in the days when you had to bring at least 3 troop units in every detachment.

    • stinkoman

      let’s not enforce more troops taxes. heaven forbid your force be an actual army or something.

    • frank

      That’s hard for a harlequins player to do. cannon fodder isn’t cheap haha.

  • defensive

    Call me a cynic, but it seems that as this edition goes on, more and more stuff gets added that just makes it less fun.

    For the first few months it was pretty fun, learning all the new rules and combos you could do.
    Now the power creep has started again, and the meta just makes tournament games completely unfun now.

    The more it goes on, the more I kinda wish they just remade 7th, but with tighter rules.

    • stinkoman

      i don’t know. i’m javing more and more fun with each book release. but i play with a crew of folks that find BoLs articles ridiculous.

    • Koonitz

      Perhaps you should take a look at Horus Heresy/30k, then, which is 7th Ed with tighter rules.

  • Tirelion

    This is a bad bait article trying to push a viewpoint and agenda that many don’t agree with. Have a little shame. Stopping an alpha CHARGE is ridiculously simple. Yet you have nothing to say to the fact that Mags/Morty routinely get alpha’d off the table with NO WAY TO STOP IT. BOLS should be ashamed of itself for allowing this article to post.

    • defensive

      How can alpha strikes be “ridiculously simple” to stop, but at the same time, there is also “NO WAY TO STOP IT?”

      • Rufus

        Jesus, he’s saying that stoping a first turn charge into valuable units is easy but stopping a first turn alpha strike shooting army against valuable units is extremely difficult. Do you have any more nuggets of wisdom on how much you hate W40k and life to impart upon us?

        • defensive

          And the article talks about both though?
          So what is the problem?

          • Rufus

            ‘How can alpha strikes be “ridiculously simple” to stop, but at the same time, there is also “NO WAY TO STOP IT?”‘

            Do you recall typing this? I thought my response addressed your confusion. So then, what is the problem?

          • defensive

            The article talks about alpha strikes in general, and uses this latest one as an example.
            He’s complaining that only alpha strike charges are discussed in th article, when that’s plainly not true.

            What exactly did your sarcasm address here?

          • Rufus

            Ah, I see you continue to miss the point. So the article does talk about first turn charges, but not in a way that jives with Tirelion’s experience or reality. The article does not address the relative lack of viability of “Alpha Strike” charges. I’m not a fan of the term “Alpha Strike” anyways. Point is, first turn charges = not consistently viable; first turn shooting = consistently viable.

      • Geronimo32509

        Did you even read what you responded to?

        “Stopping an alpha strike CHARGE is ridiculously simple”.

        You know Tirelion is talking specifically about alpha strike CHARGES because, you know, that’s the word they used. CHARGES. As far as how to stop it, you use chaff or screening units. Even if you don’t have super cheap units to do that with, odds are pretty dang good they are cheaper than the Daemon Primarch that they are being used to block.

        “Mags/Morty routinely get alpha’d off the table with NO WAY TO STOP IT”

        Tirelion is pretty obviously talking about shooting here. So considering he is talking about shooting here, and very clearly talking about charging earlier, you can see why your response doesn’t make any sense, and might lead one to believe that you didn’t actually read what you responded to?

  • The Codex has been out for 3 days and the community already wants a fix?

    Did the community forget the about the FAQ that will inevitably come out? Or that contacting them on FB about it helps get the ball rolling faster?

    Easiest fix is to have it apply only to Demon faction keywords and errata LoS and Oblits, or any other CSM units that might have this odd wording, to move their Demon factions keywords to just the regular keywords. Then Demons would only be able to pull it off and still have a selection of units to do it with that isn’t just infantry.

    But isn’t this a little knee jerk for a 3 day old book?

  • Adam

    It has already been strongly hinted that a fix is on the way. We’ve known for about a week now. If the author really did pay attention to the competitive scene, they would know this.

  • paxter

    I am about to give up on competitive gaming for 40k i have fought 3 prisms + 3 hemlocks supposedly alaitoc… all deepstriking and destroying and tabling people before the opponent gets to shoot… and when they can shoot its like -3 to hit some of those flyers most would be -2 n -1… like what is the point of playing anymore?

    • Koonitz

      I’ve been playing since 3rd Ed. These kinds of shenanigans are par for the course for competitive 40k. While, sure, many people, even at tournaments, don’t really play this way, it only takes one or two to prove the point and ruin the experience. As people say, no one plays to lose, so I want to be able to go to an event to have fun and have a chance of winning. If I have no chance of winning, I’ll just stay home and wait for next weekend to play with friends.

  • SacTownBrian

    Just bring back warp sickness for non infantry. If your LoW has to absorb an entire turn of targeting then deep striking doesn’t look as attractive

  • YetAnotherFacelessMan

    I’m not that concerned about deepstrike assaults, since you need to roll that 9+, so the odds are against you. For Mortarion, getting in proximity is a pretty big priority, but for Magnus, he can do basically everything he needs to from across the table and throwing out a smite on a deepstrike probably denies you the charge range anyways.

    Also, someone JUST told me on the other daemon post that daemons were weak to the point of being unplayable and hard to fit into other armies. So, either Nyyppä is wrong (impossible) or this isn’t an issue.

    • Koonitz

      Well, to gain access to the stratagem, you need to have a detachment of daemons. Since I only know Tzeentch, as a Thousand Sons player, I’ll use Tzeentch daemons.

      Recon Detachment
      – herald on foot: 80 points (not exact, but bear with me)
      – 10x Brimstones: 40 points.

      120 points to gain access to being able to deep strike your primarch. You could see it as a tax. Alternatively, you could take a couple daemons you like and want to add to your list and make it a bit less of a tax. For instance, take a Lord of Change/Kairos Fateweaver and have a useful addition to your force.

  • Danny Janevski

    This is a non issue. Faq is on the way

  • Mike Forrey

    I think the terrain rules would be perfectly fine if everyone had access to massive terrain pieces that blocked off complete sections of the board and forced you to assault those within the terrain. Unfortunately few players and major tournaments have access to such terrain.

    I mean was it really that confusing to add a hit modifier to the die roll? It’s really odd because now we have no reference tables for “to Hit” and the cover penalty would be very easy to apply.