Goatboy’s 40k: Stopping Slow Play & Hobby Fun

Goatboy here again with a my thoughts on fighting that most sneaky of tabletop exploits – slow play.

I just got back from LVO – which is most likely the last big event I travel to for the year (thinking of going to this Arkansas one depending on how the wife feels) due to a new kiddo coming to the Goatboy clan in July.   We’ll see how the next few months go as I figure out how long I can be gone and what events I am able to make it out too.  All of this chatter leads me into something that was pretty dang annoying towards the top tables of the LVO.

Slow-play

Slow playing has become somewhat of a problem amongst the storied gladiators of the current 40k landscape.

I don’t know about you – but I don’t have a ton of free time to get to events, throw down with dice, and hopefully see a couple of cool conversions or two.  This means that my game time is pretty precious to me as it feeds my competitive spirit and lets me work out some desires to be a winner or at least help create a good game environment for my opponent.  Of course when I get slow played it feels like someone didn’t come into the game with the same “social” contract I figure every player brings with them.  This idea that while the game is designed to produce a winner – making the game fun for both sides is a way to at least “win” on both ends of the table.  With less and less time to play week after week – anything that breaks this social contract becomes a much bigger deal.

Tough Love Time: If you can’t get past turn 2 multiple times in the event – then you need reevaluate the army you decided to bring.  It isn’t fair to your opponents, to the organizers, and to the 40k game itself.  It gives a bad taste as the armies players have spent a long time building, collecting, and painting are left not doing anything as they have to wait for you to finish whatever you are doing in the game.  Too much of the time I saw games not get past turn 2 towards the upper tier of event.  I didn’t have any issues getting my games done – in fact I think most of mine finished with 20+ minutes left in the round.  It was more then enough time to move over, find my buddies, and hear their complaints about whatever nonsense happened to them in the game.

This slow play issue seems to push a ton of people towards turn time limits, punishments, and a desire for tracking player speed of some sort.  I think some kind of penalty might be the best – with something like after 2+ games not getting past turn 2 you see more penalties stacked onto the player.  Something to push this type of stuff out of the game and maybe remove these insane 1 hour turns we saw on stream and heard chattered on about during the event.  I know 8th can get a bit clunky with massed shooting, rerolls, and other modifiers but there is no way you should take an hour plus on your turn – let alone during set up.  It’s just not cool for you and your opponent.  Its almost like you “cheated” by playing within the current rules.

Speeding Things Along

So how can you speed up your game play?  Dice blocks set up in the perfect numbers of unit attacks, telling an opponent all your models you put in reserves/deep strike/webway, and just using game intent to speed up movement helps a ton.  I always tell my opponents “Tell me what you are planning on doing, I will double check it is done, and then you can just say you did it if needed”.  This helps with movement massed models across the table top.  I always try to help any opponent moving their hordes on my side of the table and trying to make sure things are not missed during the game.  I don’t like the idea of winning due to a “forgotten” step as we try to rush through a game.  I would rather win by superior tactic choices and army build then anything accidentally missed during a game.  I had multiple instances throughout the event where I allowed an opponent to do something out of phase, move something that needed to be done, and at least feel like they were not “cheated” out of a game.

I am sure the ITC will start to push heavily on these slow games and work on a better “decent” player type of benefit/penalty.  I know the examples were not very good for competitive 40k – but we as a whole can easily fix this.  We just need to work at it, hopefully keep people honest, and try to disapprove of bad behavior.  Heck even the big ITC prize was nice – but it no way does it cover all the time, effort, and money it takes to get that high with in all the events.  It sure makes for nice bragging rights.

I Had Fun!

Still beyond all of this LVO was a lot of fun.  BCP app did very well and showcased how easy it was getting table numbers.  I don’t miss the rush to different corners of the hall and getting pressed into the wall trying to find your last name and a table number.  I got to see a ton of friends, saw a fellow artists I only knew through the Penny Arcade Forums (McGibs – excellent models that were so so gory), and even got a few model parts for an upcoming “Nurgle” Renegade Knight.  I should hopefully get that added to the Hobby pile and have a review of the extra bits and pieces.

Hobbytime

Lets move on the meandering train and look at what I want to try and build next.  Currently I am crazy slammed with army commissions which leaves me with very little room to build something new.  This makes me just look at a few small things and utilizing a current army with some new units.  The new Thousand Sons has me excited to try out a Supreme Command of Jerkhole Daemon Princes using the Morghasts from AOS.  I always strive to make something look distinct in the game and having armies fully separated by conversions/painting means I won’t accidentally screw my opponent with a mistake or two.  When I get another box and start to build these in-between Custodes, DKK, Harlies, Nurgle, and Nids.  It will be a crazy few months as I look to get things done before Adoption (one day I will get to go back) and other events.

Hobby wise if you haven’t paid attention I am currently painting once a week on the BoLS Twitch stream on Thursdays at 8pm Central.  Come check me out, see my son run in when he should be asleep, and most likely hear me get mad at a model or two.  You can see how I work and burn through covering models in my graffiti style.  Beyond that I got a ton of new logos to work on, some other BOLS art, and maybe actually get time to work on my own army.

~How fast do you think a 40K player should be required to play in a big event?

  • orionburn III

    Utilizing a chess clock would be one way to track time, but not sure how that helps in the end. I played in a tourney against a list that had a Warhound Titan and like 5 other models, and I was running Nids. Needless to say our game turn lengths were quite different in times. I agree something needs to be done to punish people deliberately trying to slow play. Just not sure how to find a way to make it work and be fair.

    • Mike Zulu

      You can’t. People play at different paces. Armies play at different paces. Combinations of armies play at different paces.

      Instead of putting the onus onto players to play faster and put unnecessary pressure and restraint upon them, maybe these tournament organisers need to lower the points limit, increase the time limit, extend the tournament, or any combination of the above.

      This isn’t speed chess.

      • Karru

        Do keep in mind that as the article states, there are people that are deliberately slowing the game down to gain an advantage by making a list that is designed to be extremely powerful on the first turn, but loses a lot of steam after that, so they slow play to make sure that doesn’t happen.

        While I do get what you are saying, do understand that there are people that abuse the timelimit to gain an advantage and their opponent can’t do anything against it and as was stated in the article, nothing is stopping them nor are they penalized for it, so why not abuse it? Out of sportsmanship? This is tournament scene, not a casual game, this unfortunately can easily bring out the worst out of people, especially if the prize is good as there are a lot of people that will do whatever it takes to win, abusing rules, exploiting oversights and in worst cases, cheat.

        • Mike Zulu

          Is he?

          “If you can’t get past turn 2 multiple times in the event – then you need reevaluate the army you decided to bring. It isn’t fair to your opponents, to the organizers, and to the 40k game itself.”

          “I know 8th can get a bit clunky with massed shooting, rerolls, and other modifiers but there is no way you should take an hour plus on your turn – let alone during set up. It’s just not cool for you and your opponent. Its almost like you “cheated” by playing within the current rules.”

          You are saying people are cheating by intentionally playing slow.

          He is saying if you are playing too slow, you are effectively cheating.

          • Karru

            Show me the part where I directly said you are cheating if you slow play.

            “While I do get what you are saying, do understand that there are people that abuse the timelimit to gain an advantage and their opponent can’t do anything against it and as was stated in the article, nothing is stopping them nor are they penalized for it, so why not abuse it?”

            Abusing the timelimit is not the same as cheating, that’s why I didn’t say that you were cheating if you abused the timelimit. People abuse rules all the time in the tournament scene, they are not cheating when they do it, it is just a thing they can do. If they aren’t penalized for doing it, they will keep doing it.

          • Mike Zulu

            “Abusing the timelimit is not the same as cheating, that’s why I didn’t say that you were cheating if you abused the timelimit.”

            Then, this is an non-issue?

            What is the point, then? It’s a competitive game. If the rules are not being broken, then where is the issue?

          • Karru

            Because like the Article stated, it encourages toxic playstyle and specific lists.

            Whenever I think about what a tournament should be, I always see it as a competition, to see who is the most skilled player. I’ve heard from many others that this is why they go to a tournament, they go there to test their skills in the game.

            Then they come across a guy that made a list that is all about easy winning via abusing the rules as much as they can. No skill involved, just using a loophole to force the other player to lose. This is definitely an issue.

          • Moonsaves

            The only time I like those lists are the “counter-abuse” lists, like the Kroot Conga Line. It’s delicious karmic justice.

          • LankTank

            What army do you play as your primary?

          • euansmith

            Not “cheating”, though I would agree that it falls under that shadow of that dank cloud that is WAAC.

          • David Clift

            I think the article is saying if you are deliberately slow playing to gain an advantage you are cheating; though still within the game rules. It is also mainly talking tournament, not casual so the implication is that it’s being used as s deliberate tactic going right down to army design.

          • ElementofOne

            That’s like saying a quarterback is cheating when he takes a knee to kill the clock.

        • ElementofOne

          Every sport has a time limit. Managers use the clock against their opponents regularly. It’s a sound tactic and within the rules.

      • Gorsameth

        If normal people non horde lists at a good pace don’t get to turn 5 your are entirely correct. But lowering the point limit does little to stop purposeful slowplay for advantage (look at Tony taking over an hour for his first turn against Alex and a little over 20 against Nick when he was against a clock)

        Increasing time limits is rarely an option for tournaments. 3 games + breaks already takes up the entire day.

        • euansmith

          Maybe having Horde Armies use movement trays could speed things along. The TO would need to make a ruling regarding how many minis in a movement tray get to fight, and they would need to design their terrain to accommodate Movement Trays too; but it could certainly speed up deployment and movement, if not the insane amount of die rolling some armies can generate.

          • HeadHunter

            Gods no. This is 8th Edition 40K, not 8th Edition WHFB. If I wanted movement trays I’d play something else.

          • LordKrungharr

            In the first turn or two deploying masses of infantry in movement trays makes perfect sense. Often the specific placement of 100 guys doesn’t matter until later when they are ready to assault or perhaps be assaulted. It saves buckets of time if you add up the seconds of consideration and measurement for deploying and moving each friggin model.

          • euansmith

            With the demise of templates, movement trays sound eminently sensible to me. 🙂

          • marxlives

            Me too, the idea of using unit cohesion rules to mitigate blast templates is no longer an issue and in Warpath you can use movement trays for the same reasons.

          • Jose Luis Camarasa

            Now there is something worse than the avoidance of templates: negating deepstrike space and onion peeling by infinite conga lines. Abusing the cohesion space between models will never be over I guess..

          • JPMcMillen

            The movement trays don’t have to be designed to keep the mini’s shoulder to shoulder nor do they have to blob them together. I’ve seen ones that keep the mini’s in a relative straight line, with others that keep them in a trapezoid formation. Even a small round or triangle one for 3 minis could greatly reduce the number of models a horde player has to maneuver each turn.

            But they aren’t needed for all units, or even all the models in a unit (leaders, special/heavy weapons, etc..). But when you’ve got a giant blob unit with 30 minis, anything that could simplify moving them all is a good thing.

          • HeadHunter

            The problem with movement trays is they don’t allow units to change their formation as needed to adapt to circumstances on the battlefield. Rank-and-file is only a concept on the parade ground, not the battlefield.

          • marxlives

            That is true, but with the removal of vehicle facing and blast templates, that fact that they don’t use an Abstract Aerospace System to give a granular look on how jet fixed winged aircraft behave on the battlefield like you see in BattleTech, and changes to the system’s math, I think the game has already moved into levels of arbitrary abstraction where movement templates are not a big deal.

            Especially since game is 28mm and played at 15mm or less sizes in regard to force size. The game definitely does not have the same granular rules as Infinity where it zooms in on the actions of an individual platoon. 40k behaves more like Flames of War but with larger scale models and movement trays doesn’t hurt that game or Warpath.

            Maybe it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing change. Movement trays are determined by unit size. Units of 10+ need to be on unit trays. This way elite units behave more like an elite part of the force, like in Infinity, but the large units behave more like a conventional force.

          • LankTank

            Just dovwhat I do. Measure the front line, move it forwards, then using the palm of your hand shovel the rest in a glorious undignified heap

          • euansmith

            Works best with Orkz, I guess. The do undignified so well.

        • Mike Zulu

          Ultimately, I take issue with this casting judgement onto players who play slowly, regardless of whether they are intentional or not. As I said, not everyone or their pride-and-joy armies play the same pace; they should not be accused of cheating, rules abuse, unsportsmanship, etc.

          Hence why I stated that organisers should consider being more accommodating, even if the suitable options are limited.

          • Gorsameth

            I dont like to accuse people of slowplaying either, I use Tony as an example because the contrast is so readily apparent. But when 2 people agree to have a game they should both work to ensure that game finishes on time.
            You can say a slow player is being punished by having turn limits but the other side is that ‘normal/fast’ players are being punished by not being able to finish games to their natural conclusion.

            Why does a slow player deserve to spend more of the combined time in a game?

          • HeadHunter

            Sure, let’s indulge the stallers even further. Like that will solve the problem.

          • LankTank

            Im suspecting he is one

          • Legitimancer

            This is a about tourney players specifically. It is not unreasonable to ask tourney players to understand that they have x amount of time to get to turn y. These are good players, they can handle it. Tournament slow play is detrimental to the health of the hobby.

          • happy_inquisitor

            That is OK but when an experienced top player using an elite army somehow cannot seem to get through their first turn in less than an hour – something’s not right. The last tournament game I played went to turn 2 and it was entirely obvious to me that all the rules-lawyering and nonsense was fundamentally just setting out to waste my time because I would probably win if the game got to turn 4 or later. Why would I waste my valuable spare time on that tedious nonsense, I have not bothered going to another tournament since then.

            Nobody wants super-rigid rules that penalise someone at their first tournament who happened to bring a bunch of Boyz. However if the time-wasters are allowed to get away with it lots of players will see how boring it is and never come back.

        • Isolfr

          where can I watch the videos of the games? I can’t find them on youtube

        • Nicholas Turner

          I don’t see how you could justify spending more than half an hour on setting up unless you have an infantry horde army like orks or tyranids. The fact he spent a third the time setting up when on the clock does point toward him engaging in intentional slow play.

          Tournaments will have to penalise for the slow play to hopefully weed it out. I would not be happy going to a tournament and only ever getting to round two in games against opponents.

          I have used brutal alpha strike lists designed to wipe out space marine armies against friends, but they are generally a glass hammer so after the first turn you start to take massive damage to your force, I wouldn’t consider it a victory if I used slow playing to reduce the amount of turns played to end the game with more victory points due to time running out. That is basically using the constraints of the allocated game time to nullify your weaknesses.

          It may not be ‘cheating’ as such, but you ARE playing for an advantage. Which is not playing in the spirit of the game.

      • orionburn III

        I don’t disagree with you. I hate the feeling that I have to rush, which often leads to making some stupid mistakes, because I feel obligated to playing a horde army. If I go first on Turn 1 it’s going to take a while since everything is still alive. After two turns a good chunk of my army is going to be dead (it is what hordes do) and turns will start to go quicker.

        Outside of seeing somebody be a repeat offender throughout a tourney and not allowing them back I don’t think there’s much that can be done. It would be nice to get rid of all those that are slow playing on purpose, but I also agree that some players just aren’t as quick and they aren’t looking for an advantage.

      • HeadHunter

        Lowering the points limit or increasing the time limit won’t make stallers play any faster.

      • Slow play is intentional. You could be playing 500 points and they’d slow play to the same effect.

    • marxlives

      I know with Steamrollers there are Death Clock and Timed turn options. Agree maybe chess clocks and time turns will fix this issue. It is sure to shake up the meta as you don’t have to design your list to be the best unbeatable combo, but you have to build your list to operate within the time limits.

    • LankTank

      But then wouldn’t the deliberate slow player take all their saves real slowly to draw out their opponents turn? I think the only solution is if a TO notices time abuse, they give a warning. 2nd time point deduction. 3rd time disqualified

      • Apocryphus

        In Death Clock tournaments, the clock is switched to the other player for out of turn actions so that can’t happen. It would be a pain in 40k with armor saves though, and players might forget to switch the clock back a lot.

  • Karru

    I don’t play in events, but I do various other things to speed the game along in regular games I do.

    For example, if my opponent is playing a horde and he moves one of his bigger units, I just say “measure the front guys and then place the others just behind it for speed’s sake”. I don’t find it unreasonable to allow my opponent to not have to measure each and every model’s movement in his unit, since the front row is pretty much the only thing that matters anyway and if my opponent decides to be a cheating pr*ck and move his guys farther somehow by a significant amount, then I know I won’t be playing against him again.

    Same thing with deployment. When he is placing his big unit, I usually go “Is that where you want to place them? Would you like for me to deploy my next unit?”

    I realised as I was writing this that the way I worded those might sound like I am trying to hurry him along, but in truth, I am just asking him to relax because too many times I have seen people just try to do their turn as fast as they can with horde armies because some just get stressed out as they are afraid that their opponent doesn’t enjoy it taking that long for him to move.

    Then again, I am extremely chill to play against since I am very forgiving and casual in my playstyle. Give the boy that extra Inch he needs to charge, not sure if there was accidentally an extra miss in there when you picked up the dice, nope, I didn’t see it and so on. I don’t like to play competitively, so making the game more relaxing for both sides is always nice thing to do.

    • Fergie0044

      “measure the front guys and then place the others just behind it for speed’s sake”

      Same here. And really, outside of a really particular comp player, shouldn’t this always be the case now? Especially since its no longer ‘remove the closest models for shooting causalities’.

    • Luca Lacchini

      Pretty much the same, especially regarding movement of big units (I often play Imperial Guard, and my friends field Orks and Genestealer Cults) and deployment.
      Not so much about charge distance and dice rolling/rolled results, but that’s me and it’s because I’ve met a cheater too many in the past.

      I understand that tournements are and should be different, and the solution for me lies in the points value + turn time limit combo.

      • JPMcMillen

        There are skirmish movement trays that can be used for 40k. At least for deployment and early turns they can simplify getting units where you want them by not having to move every last mini individually. Later on, as need, you can remove models from their tray for more precise placement.

    • orionburn III

      I appreciate guys that are laid back like that. Moving the front line and then moving everybody else up behind them is an easy way to speed things up. I do my part to speed things up when I run my Nids. I got a few dice cups and added my own touch to them. This way when I’m rolling crap tons of dice I’m not making them wait for two minutes while I count out 72 dice to roll. Each cup has it’s own color of dice so it saves a lot of time. My hope is that it shows I’m doing my part to speed things up where I can, so hopefully if I am taking a bit too long on movement phase it’s because I’m trying to sort things out and not slow down the game just to win.
      http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/75bedfdc74568ad63f97496041eb5a8ccc4de01a17b45906dd1f597224713977.jpg

      • Karru

        Huh, that’s actually pretty damn clever.

      • fenrisful2

        Dice cups, are a blessing as it helps issues with dice rolling off the table, but is also more honest way to roll with fewer dice, because I’ve seen my fair share of dice tipping, not so much as they always get a 6′ but 90% of the time, that re-rolled 1′ becomes a 6′.

        Having symbols on the cups is also a much better approach than having symols instead of dots or number on the actual dice.

  • Simon Chatterley

    I don’t know the solution to slow play. Chess clocks feel too harsh a response.

    When you are faced with it though it is infuriating. Especially if you are going second as you are up against it straight away and struggling to get back into it.

  • euansmith

    “Tell me what you are planning on doing, I will double check it is done, and then you can just say you did it if needed” That’s quality playing right there. A simple idea and it keeps the non-active player involved in the game too, reminding the over excited active player of things they’ve forgotten.

    Punishment for slow play could be tricky without something like Chess Clocks, as you might get unlucky and be penalised for drawing a bunch of slow opponents.

  • Matthew Hird

    If the game didn’t come to a natural conclusion, there should not be a winner. Imagine if the Superbowl was abruptly ended 5 minutes before halftime. ‘Well, Big Bang Theory is on now, so game over! Who’s ahead?’ If FLG wants LVO to be a streamed, competitive event (given that there’s betting on eSports now, it’s not impossible that there could be money riding on these games at some point) they need to ensure that games actually finish. If they need to set aside 5 hours a round, so be it, but if games aren’t going past turn two, then we’re not actually playing 40k anymore.

  • mrbleak

    In Semi-finals, Tony Grippando took almost 1 hour for turn 1 but in the finals when he was restricted to 20 minutes a turn, he was able to do it, no problem.
    It´s not that the armies people bring are slow, some people play slow on purpose because of diferent factors like going second for example.
    This is appalling to me as 8th has been the fastest edition I have played (playing since 4th) with my friends we do 5 turns in 2 hours after set up. Then you get to a tourney and people who you have seen at your local store playing a full game in 2 hours, take 20 minutes to deep strike, cause there’s soo many spots on the table within 9″ of 3 squads for yous 30 bloodletters to go.
    Punishments need to be brutal as it is, to me and most, that slow-playing is done on purpose and as it ruins not only games but steals time it need to be erradicated like a bad Ork infestation.

  • HeadHunter

    Wasn’t one of the stated design intents of 8th to make the game *faster*? I don’t know how they intended that with split fire and “all the weapons” and the like – but if this is an issue, then it seems like they failed on that intent.

  • Our tournament team here uses chess clocks for all of their ITC tournaments. Honestly I would never play in a tournament without some measure of time tracking. I hated slow play in 1998. I hated slow play in 2005. I’d hate slow play today. I had to sit through a guy in 2001 who would take 45 minutes to cast a D6 S4 fireball in his effort to win via slow play at “the highest level of play” and I thought that was extraordinarily lame.

    That story had a happy ending though. After the clock expired … at the top of turn 2… the organizer let me have my part of the turn whhich took five minutes of me charging and taking the win. I didn’t have a camera phone back then but I wish I had because dude’s face was priceless.

    I rate slow play as the lowest form of sportsmanship, only above out and out cheating and does nothing to promote the tournament community in a positive light.

  • HeadHunter

    I don’t really care for the excuses of “some people take longer to play” or “some armies take longer”. There’s a time limit to the match, why shouldn’t there be a time limit to the turns? If you can’t play your army in that time limit, you either need to step up how you play or design your list to be able to do what it should within the time limit. This is competitive play we’re talking about.
    If the time limit is 4 hours, and we expect the opportunity for the game to go to at least 4 turns if necessary, then each player should get 30 minutes per turn, plain and simple. No need for chess clocks, just a simple timer. If players are taking less time than that, maybe the game can go on longer if need be, rather than be decided prematurely. And there will no longer be an issue of stalling for advantage. Allegations will disappear and games will go better.

    • euansmith

      Maybe 90 minutes for Turn 1, 60 minutes for Turn 2, 45 minutes for Turn 3, hours for Turn 4 and 15 minutes for Turn 5; to allow for shrinking armies. 😉

      • HeadHunter

        Perhaps, but a fixed time also gives the ability to more carefully consider strategy in the final turns. Kind of like how football coaches save a time out until the 2-minute warning.

  • Slow play is obnoxious. I play large model count armies usually and play/have played them long enough to play them at reasonable speed. Sadly I have been intentionally slow played against by much smaller armies before. I am a lot more mindful of slow play now than when it first happened. I recall later realizing what had happened and getting extremely mad about it. My typical fist turn sees everything move into place and only a few stationary units shooting, I build my lists with intent of action which removes the need for lots of dice or time spent deciding what to do. Easy to play lists. Slugga boys advance artillery shoots. buffs are dropped into place that kind of thing. Combat can take a little time but dividing my dice into pools and immediately rerolling any rerolls seems to keep things moving nicely. I also play a lot smarter now days too. The game that upset me so much that I mentioned also out played me, I feel if I had not played 100% all in and had units in other spots for later I would have forced a draw or tool a light win, which is better than not winning at all.
    Kinda think a soft score for sportsmanship or some thing might help. Don’t know though. Maybe some way to call people out over slow play but that will just get ugly. No reason for that.

  • markdawg

    Look the reason you guys have slow play is there is no downside to it. A player that’s ahead can slow play with impunity.

    Its very hard to stop someone doing it to you as well. If you rush someone you’re being a jerk and same goes if you call a judge over too early. If you call the judge to late there is nothing he can do.

    I know lots of people say nobody does this on purpose but they do and it happens way too much.

    People need to understand that a tourney game is a timed game playing in the time allowed is part of the game.

    I do have some simple things that could help.
    1. A turn time cap only once per game can any one player turn take x amount of time after that they have a hard dice down for x amount of time for the rest of the game.

    2. A large clock broadcast on the wall that all players can read.

    3. A 15 minute meet & greet period before every round so you can read the list and meet the player.

    4. Have your dice ready to go and communicate clearly what you are rolling and why.

  • Majere613

    Whilst I’m not one to blame GW for everything, this is in part their fault. For all the streamlining in 8th, with the removal of things like templates and the fact that everything can wound on a 6, it’s a very horde-friendly edition, and lots of models will inevitably slow the game down.
    It doesn’t help that several units get very good bonuses for being big. Daemons are probably the worst example, with them being cheap and getting a bonus for having 20+ models, which in practice means units of 30. My preferred Slaanesh Daemons list has some 90 Daemonettes in it and moving and deploying them takes so long that I can’t practically play it in a tournament- and that’s under 700 points worth of models.

    • happy_inquisitor

      It has nothing to do with hordes.

      Go have a look at the streams from LVO when they come up. We are talking about top players with elite low model count armies. Between the semi-final and final the exact same player managed their first turn in 1/3 of the time when all that changed was having a judge standing over the table with a timer.

      What we are talking about here is clearly gamesmanship. Deliberately playing slowly both to gain a tactical advantage and also to put your opponent under undue and unfair time pressure which might cause them to make mistakes. It is only not against the rules because for some reason there are no rules against bad sportsmanship.

  • fenrisful2

    Asyncronized victory points, if you play slow intentionally, you could win the game but you would lose the tournament. Most tournaments I’ve seen have either a W-D-L system or a point system of say 20 points split between the players 13-7 or 19-1 for example.
    This is bad, instead just add up the victory points of each player, could be 1-0 in a really slow game but in a faster paced game it could be 73-57.
    This would allow for it being in both players interest to play as many turns as possible.
    The player that scored the most victory points in the tournament should be the winner, only if there is a split between two players should the number of victory points you lost to opponents matter.

  • zeno666

    Timed turns?

  • Koonitz

    Personally, I like the idea of “not quite a chess clock”. Basically, each player times their turns (or their opponent’s turns, if you prefer). You then tally up the total time each player spent, compared to the total time spent on the game as a whole (based on when the round began, so the same starting time for every player that round).

    It’s not a limit, as you’re still able to take as long as you want or need on your turn.

    If, however, one player takes more time than the other, they give up points to their opponent. For instance, if I take up 66% or more of the total time played (regardless whether the game was actually completed or ran out of time), my opponent gets 1 point. If I take up 75% of the time, my opponent gets 2 points.

    Maybe not enough to make or break a game, but certainly enough to give the slow-player pause.

    This also serves to incentivize smaller armies. Armies that, currently, stand no chance against the hordes, right now. The scoring of these points can be rebalanced if hordes are no longer the meta.

    • Frank O’Donnell

      You’ve 4 knight’s I’ve an army of 70+ models see the problem ? : )

      • Koonitz

        Yes. That’s why the points given are not game breaking. Next time, don’t bring hordes, if you don’t want to give up those points. Besides, when was the last time an army of 4 Knights won a tournament (You may be going back to 7th)? This might give players an incentive to actually BRING an army of 4 Knights, because they might get enough points to get anywhere but the bottom 50%. (Disclaimer: I didn’t look at the LVO army standings, I have no actual idea how Knights faired, beyond “not at the top tables”).

        Also why I added, at the end, that it can be rebalanced, if hordes are no longer the meta.

        • Frank O’Donnell

          I wouldn’t call 70 models a horde in today’s game & there was a tournament here in Ireland last weekend where a Knight army came 5th, now I know the numbers here are nothing like the LVO but I don’t think giving players points for bring a small army is the right way to go.

          Tbh I think there are some players who play slow as away of trying to win, but not as many as are only playing slow because of the game mechanics, while GW want a tournament scene they still put in a lot of things that slow down the game, the first place to start for me would be rerolls & all the random things you’ve got to roll for, eg if something that rolls d6 for shots should get an average of 3.5 each time why not just give them 3 or 4 shots.
          In tournament play the game should be about skill with a little bit of luck with dice rolls not the other way around.

  • pompeyladBFP

    3 hour game you get to use a maximum of 30 mins a turn to complete movement pychic and shooting phase, assault phase and at start of the game you get 10 mins to set up each. Then can maybe drop down to 15 minutes??

  • Commissar Molotov

    With as little terrain as is normally used on tourney tables, why not use some movement trays if you play a “horde” army?

    • marxlives

      Seeing how it was integrated in Warpath successful and with the systems be so similar I don’t see the issue with movement trays in 40k either.

    • HeadHunter

      Because formations should be able to change to adapt to circumstance. As I said above, rank-and-file only works on the parade ground.
      If I want to go from a line to a wedge, or a diamond or an echelon, what do I do? Take time to transfer all the models to a different tray? Because I’m sure that’s quick and accurate and no model will be moved incorrectly and there’ll be no delay…

      • Commissar Molotov

        Are you joking?

  • Frank O’Donnell

    GW could help a lot to speed things up by cutting down on the amount of dice players have to roll, EG I fire my Leman Russ I need to find out how many shots I’ve then I can’t reroll one of them, then I shoot I might be rerolling some of them, then I roll to wound.
    Next the other player rolls to save he might even have some kind of reroll on this, then I’ve to roll to see how much damage each hit does, then he might have another kind of save to make.

    Now I ask you how much time did all that ? are the two players playing slow or is the rules making the game slow ? another thing to look at might be the points levels use in tournaments, I know GW tell us 2K but why won’t they ? 1500 might work a lot better & give players a bit more time to enjoy the game in a more relaxed manner instead for having to try to play at a breakneck speed.

    Years ago when I started playing tournaments they where 1500pts & a horde army might push close to 100 models, 7 there wasn’t half as many dice rolls either.

  • J Mad

    Literally just lower points to 1500.

    • That doesn’t stop players that intentionally game the clock. You could have 500 points and they’d still game the clock.

      • J Mad

        It will help a lot tho, clocks are teh only way to “speed up players playing” but b.c how the game is now Alpha strike being so strong, or a turn 2 slaughter, etc.. players will slow play every turn if they can.

        Lowering the points will make it harder to do that.

        If you cant do enough damage in 1 turn to make it worth while you’ll play the long game.

        I also think they need Comp Scores back as well, but thats my 0.2c

  • ContingenC

    How about this:

    Work out what a reasonable* time amount for five turns is, and divide that time by two. Each player is guaranteed that
    much time.

    Right now it seems Billy Bob can hurt Joe Blow by using first turn advantage to claim 75% of the allotted match time. With guaranteed time, Billy Bob slowplaying to run out the clock is perilous as if Billy Bob can only gets two turns in when time runs out and Joe Blow gets his two in, Joe Blow gets to do turns 3, 4, and possibly 5 back-to-back without Billy Bob able to take another. This strongly disincentivizes slow play.

    A few drawbacks of this approach:
    A) Billy Bob could guarantee himself a third turn by using only 99% of his allotted time on the first first two turns.
    B) back-to-back turns favor shooting armies more than CC as shooting armies do not have to worry about return fire.
    C) players may save risky tactics for after their enemy has burned through their time, like only coming into LoS when they have back-to-back turns.

    *By reasonable, enough time for an organized player with a horde army to go through five turns. If the time required to allow horde armies to play doesn’t fit the venue, just enforce a hard cap on models at the event level and let people adjust as needed.

    • HeadHunter

      But if your turn ends when you run out of time, Billy-Bob’s turn 3 would only be a few seconds in that case.
      And if that means your opponent gets back-to-back turns, that’s no one’s fault but your own.
      Sounds like a GREAT way to discourage stalling. I’m all for it.

  • Nyyppä

    Max time per player per turn. Clock it and penalize the people who fail to adhere to the limits. Done.

  • David Metcalfe

    the issue people are missing, is that there is nowhere in the rule book that mentions speed of play. this is an event/tournament only issue.

    as such TOs should be the one figuring out how they are going to enforce their own rules.

    they have introduced this rule and as such players are using it to their advantage (pick an army that works well over 3 turns and slow the game down to last only 3 turns), just like they introduced rules like how the mission objectives work and people pick their army accordingly.

    at the moment there is no negative to playing to to the “speed” of your army.

    in reality it can’t be enforced

  • Karl A. Van Hallstan

    Please! *than

  • Tothe

    If I were playing in a major tournament, I would assume I know my army, I know the rules, and generally know what I am doing all around. As such, I find it hard to see an excuse for slow play in a turn even for a horde or MSU list. it may take longer, but not a full hour per turn.