Goatboy’s 40k Thoughts: Future Army Questions

Goatboy here again and if you pay attention to 40k you know an FAQ is coming sometime in March – I’ve got some ideas…

Or at least we hope GW follows their new “path” to game balancing.  You can guess a few of the changes coming due to what has been winning games a bit to much but who knows how broad this FAQ change will be.  Of course with that in mind – lets see if I can get lucky and guess some of these changes.  A few are pretty obvious but I also want to delve into things that might become too good once a few of the “initial” culprits are brought around towards a more “fair” configuration.

First – the BIG Menace

First of all – we all know Dark Reapers will see some sort of change.  There has been a ton of ideas thrown around – from full nerfs to just small changes to size/cost.  I don’t expect a cost change as those are normally left for the end of year – Chapter Approved compendium.  Of course that could just be a way to solidify all changes including any point changes so who knows.  I am of the mindset that a few rules tweaks and some unit size changes would be the best – but then I believe everything should be usable in an army so nerfing something into the ground isn’t exactly my favorite thing to do.  When I was at LVO I gave the thought that maybe we should just change the unit size from Min/Max of 5 man (matching the amount you get in a box).  This would eliminate some of the power of the Soul Burst Mechanic as well as the benefit of Guide/etc.  It would also eliminate some of the cheaper 3 man units utilizing the power of the Tempest Launcher.  I also have the feeling a change in their damage output needs to be look at as a flat 3 is a pretty powerful weapon.  Especially mixed with an always 3+ to hit.  I don’t know how far they go but that is me thinking of how to balance it without heavily changing the rules.  I expect a bit more of a change to come but who knows.

Speaking of Dark Reaper weapons – the Tempest launcher needs to be changed.  I won’t go into how many times Brad hit me for 9+ times with that dang thing.  Nowhere do we have a no LOS gun that has so many shots on such a cheap body.  Plus the ability to always hit on a 3+ is a bit extreme.  If any other army had that – it would be in every army list.  It needs a change and either move to d6 or some other kind of 2d3 option as right now it is just brutal.  Of course if I played it I would have many turns where I only got to shoot it 3-4 times – rolling a ton of 2’s to miss.  It is just my luck on those things when I try to play with something that isn’t Chaos related.  Thankfully I do not like the look of the Eldar so I have never been tempted to play them.

Have Psychic Cat – Will Break the Meta

From there I think there is going to be some serious work done with Ynarri.  Right now there is a big issue where a Ynarri unit keeps their Craftworld name and has access to Stratagems as long as you take a solid Craftworld Detachment.  I think a simple fix to this is to make the Ynarri keyword the same as the Craftworld name keyword – thus removing some of the stackable issues (Shining Spears moving and advance twice plus charging) as well as some units utilizing Transports from another Detachment.  In fact I expect a big Detachment change to come where this type of thought might be eliminated as they will end up putting in a rule that you can only use stratagems on Detachments that activate them.

This would be a big hit towards the Ynarri soup lists and other soup armies that utilize a parent single Army choice detachment to turn on the Stratagems for all the other parts of their “soup” Brigade/army.  It most likely hurts Chaos a lot more as they have a lot of synergy between all the armies that utilize Cultists and the Tide of Traitors stratagem.  I really like the idea of Keywords and feel while as a whole they have helped out the game they still need some work to ensure we don’t have some overlapping issues as armies get more complex.

I also wonder if will see even more tweaks to Soulburst.  Once we remove some Stratagem usage as well as “Craftworld” abuse the Ynarri mechanic should be ok.  I can also expect some of the Vehicles to lose those Craftworld bonuses.  I would love to see the other armies vehicles get their Chapter rules too but it might just be safer to only gives those rules to Infantry, Bikes, and Dreads/etc.  It is one of those things that initially during the first meta of 8th with the Space Marine book – the threat of -2 to shoot Storm Ravens was a legit scare.  Right now they are less of an issue because of Dark Reapers and their constant 3+ to hit.  A lot of this would be removed if they just had move and fire with heavy weapons instead of the 3+ to hit – but I guess they want Dark Reapers to feel special.

Meet the Latest 40K Fad

From here I bet will also see a change coming to some FW as a few things go way to cheap.  The Fire Raptor had a strange update that while not present in the top 8 of LVO – was showing up a lot throughout the event.  A buddy barely missed the top 8 with his Raptor list and I think the flying bullet machine is a bit too cheap to leave as is.  Most of the “best” armies out there has answers for it (Dark Reapers yay!) but a lot of the middle ground becomes a who went first contest.  That isn’t very good for the game and losing due to not having a chance to bullet storm your enemy isn’t valid for a strategic game.  I expect a point increase to be the answer so will see if that shows up.

After this I wonder if will finally see some kind of locked in matched play army building.  You have to have a Battalion, limits to how many other detachments you can use, and overall changes to their structure.  For awhile the Supreme Command Detachment was an issue but it seems less of a problem now.  Its one of those far reaching ideas that I have as I fear we might see something rough coming in the future.  I don’t know what yet – but the Custodes Character biker gang is something to fear.  I could see a Supreme command detachment being just 3 HQs, 1 LoW, 1 Elite and calling it a day.  It would still be useful but we won’t see things like 10 Characters in 2 Supreme detachments.

Like this – but with Command Points

The Perpetual Motion Command Point Generator

The other thing we need some kind of answer for is when you get to roll for the “bring back a Command Point” traits we see a lot of.  Is it when you start the game or any time – ie the nebulous pre turn of the game?  I know a lot of people are playing this all kinds of strange with either having to have the model on the table to activate (Commander with the Relic and the Warlord trait that lets you roll multiple dice to see if you return a CP) or can just do it because your guy is “alive”.  I really think some kind of answer would be good and most likely along the lines you only get Command Points back during the actual turns of the game – not before etc.  So spending points for extra Relics doesn’t activate your ability regrow command points.

Have they outstayed their welcome?

Time to Say Goodbye?

I also hope we have a solidified answer to dropping all the Index books soon.  I feel these books were just a stop gap to allow your armies to play in 8th edition and once you get a codex should be dropped.  Sure some units are missing but GW can easily just release a nice list in the next Chapter Approved with correct points, options, and other things.  Leaving you to have to carry another book is pretty frustrating and something I just want cut out of the game.  There are too many “crazy” combinations that just need to go away.

I wonder how much data GW gets from all the events.  I know they most likely look at the bigger ones – especially the top 8’s.  They are a part of a lot of the bigger events and can easily see something that is an issue.  I am sure the Playtesters also bring up some problems as well.  What other things are you finding to be too much?  Beyond the Stratagem issues what other broad changes could happen to shake things up?  If Eldar get nerfed do you think the AM monster will show up more?  Is Chaos left to kind of float in the middle with good FW options, a ton of books, and the best synergy in the game?

~ Have at it folks, Goatboy Out!

  • JFC

    I was wondering when another #nerfthereaper article would be posted. #reapersareelvestoo #reaperlivesmatter

    • snakechisler

      At what price level would you suggest a tempest launcher should be? 2D6 neg 2 s4, the Eldar platforms are 45 for 1 d6 pseudo rending and don’t get auto 3+ re roll 1?
      Why should Yenarai get 2 faction bonuses instead of 1?
      The squad size is being abused at both ends of the spectrum and currently there is little point in Eldar players taking anything else.

      • el_tigre

        I think he just means this is the eleventeenth article to talk about it, maybe time for a change of subject

        • orionburn III

          Shhh….then we’ll just get another article about LVO and sportsmanship…lol

          • ZeeLobby

            LOL XD

    • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

      You again ? #cantwinwithoutreaper #letreapersalone #yudontletmewin

      • JFC

        Ha! It’s like you know me better each time!

    • zeno666

      So far its pretty much been a day or two after the previous one 😉

    • Warrior24_7

      Just another guy whining…

  • Hazamelistan

    “Leaving you to have to carry another book is pretty frustrating”
    You mean besides your codex, the FAQ/Errata to your codex and Chapter Approved? You’re right… That’s one book too many 😉

    FW doesn’t even released a codex. At least for Death Korps the Index is a waste of time. Haven’t looked for a while but they didn’t even update the eBook after the Errata in July. FW-AdMech is still lacking any rules.

  • Devil_Eyez

    As a guard play that use Cp recycling mechanics I would like this to be explained official better, just so I know I’m not breaking the rules with it basically when I role before the first turn.

    • OctopusVolcano

      I dunno how it’s worded for others, but the Admech one pretty clearly states “while your warlord is on the battlefield” turn, pre-game is irrelevant, unless you read into something that isnt there.

      Put warlord down, use pre-first-turn strategm, roll for CP regains. Simples.

    • Solvagon

      What I feel would also be important is to get all those abilities in line. From a fluff point I understand having the DG Tallyman only regenerating from DG stratagems, but I think it would be healthier if that restriction would apply to other armies as well.

    • Koonitz

      The new Custodes FAQ may have answered this, actually. Valoris (special character) has an ability that activates when a stratagem is used to regain command points.

      The FAQ states that you CAN use it before the game begins, BUT Valoris has to be on the board when you activate it. Exactly as the wording states. So, as soon as deployment begins, you can use the relic any time after you choose to deploy your warlord.

  • Simon Chatterley

    Reapers just feel wrong on multiple levels. They ignore any penalties, have a solid Ignores LoS weapon, can be taken in very small squads and are cheap. The unit needs a top to bottom overhaul tbh.

    Fire Raptors are a funny beast. Never saw one on competitive play and at the LVO they were everywhere. I guess Goatboy buddy was the guy with 5 of them? It was just Storm Raven spam Mark 2 and if he didn’t get the first turn and was against Eldar (who knew huh?) they could nuke what was on the table and win due to boots on the ground. If he got first turn he ripped the throat out from the force in front. Considering how much GW hated Stormraven spam I think they dropped a ball again here. Flyers should be max 2 or 3 per army.

    I think a key issue is a core mechanic. The spam formations aren’t helping the game at all IMHO (and I use and abuse them as well…because you have to)

    • euansmith

      I agree, anything that can end the game in the first turn is bad design, or at least abused design. Really having some mechanism that reduces the effect of going first could be cool and could lead to more balanced forces.

      Equally a mechanism that doesn’t allow first turn charges would help to make the game more about maneuvering two forces on a table top rather than hoping to win the roll off for first player.

      Maybe -1 to hit for the First Player in the First Turn, and a +1 to hit for over Overwatch in the First Turn?

      • Munn

        So basically ‘ha ha ha, Orkz don’t get to shoot first turn lol?’

        • euansmith

          😀 How about, Player One is BS 2 for the first turn 😉

          Basically, I think it would be nice if GW took a good long hard look at the structure of the game. Tweaking points and nerfing over powered units, once they’ve sold enough kits, really doesn’t do anything to ameliorate the advantage of being Player One.

          I realise that there are many players who seem to happy enough with mono-build, Net List Codices and ending games in turn two; but I think it would be nice is things were more open and less totally devastating.

          The introduction of unit suppression instead of unit annihilation as a result of shooting, or maybe making the Shooting Phase reactive, like the combat Phase reactive, with both sides shoot.

          • zeno666

            Hell yeah. The game needs a total rehaul.

          • 40KstillRulesTheTT

            Epic had impact points (can’t remember which version though but it was roughly 20 years ago lol), which basically was suppression, and I think many weapons in 8th should be made weaker but then they would generate impact points. Impact points could stop a unit charging for one turn etc.
            Hey now I think GW should just do that, would be a lot of work but less than alternate activation or other complete game overhauls

      • Warrior24_7

        Then you get silly rules like you have now! What’s wrong with first turn charges? Learn how to frikin deploy. Assault based armies like Nids and Demons would suffer because they must stop, wait, stand there, and then get shot to pieces before they get into combat! Is “that” fair?

        Just spam heavy and rapid fire weapons and it’s game over. The VAST majority of the people whining have never played against this list! Or they lose against anything and start crying. It’s funny how these people NEVER say their army should be nerfed.

        • ZeeLobby

          XD

        • euansmith

          I point I was poorly trying to make, is that I’d like the game to be more about maneuvering and feinting rather than just everyone is in each other’s grill by the bottom of turn one.

          If ‘Nids and Daemons need to be in combat before turn two, then there is something wrong, in my view, with game balance.

          Personally I’d like every faction to get “nerfed” to the point where their cost reflects their capabilites and there aren’t underpriced units in codices. 😉

          • Warrior24_7

            I like maneuver too, but what good is it if you can’t capitalize from the movement? Think about what you are saying here, youre going to give this Ynnari Reaper list or Tau, Guard “3” rounds of shooting “before” they can be assaulted? Because if they’re in combat by turn two then the game is unbalanced? So you just titled the game balance favoring static armies like guard, Space Marines, Reapers, heavy weapon teams, etc.

            One way to counter this Reaper list is by 1st turn assault! If you sit back and let them shoot at you for three turns, in a 5 turn game, “before” they can be assaulted, you’re going to lose.

          • euansmith

            But then there is the danger of Turn One Assault or Turn One Leaf Blower becomes the entirety of the game.

            It becomes “Deploy”, “Roll for Player One”, “Shake Hands On A Good Game Well Played”.

            I know that this is hyperbole on my part, but I don’t think it is massively far from the truth.

            I feel that, maybe. the counter argument, that first turn assault is needed as a counter to massed shooting, possibly misses the point, that there might be something wrong with the way the game plays as a whole?

          • Warrior24_7

            Damn near everything is in shooting range on turn one. I say leave the game alone here. It’s up to “you” to create a list that can deal with this possible eventuality. If you create a list that is all shooting, then you’re probably weak in movement and close combat. That can be exploited. To “me” it up to the player to create a list that can deal with 1st turn assault.

          • AEZ

            I just think that both these things.. either shooting or melee able to ruin another army in 1 turn (preferably the first) means that possible damage output is just too high. If you give everything double HP (or half all damage before assigning) and let the game play for like 7-9 turns it might work better (sure it would have issues of itself and points would need adjusting.. but the first strike – or any strike after it would just have less impact.)
            Maybe someone should try this.

          • euansmith

            Yes I feel a bit sad when people complain that unit x can’t one shot unit y, and therefore unit x is rubbish.

            I like the idea of big things getting degraded by shots, but then, also like the idea of vehicles being like real AFVs and suffering Mobility Kills, Firepower Kills and Catastrophic Kills.

            I’m also a fan of combat results that do something other than destroy; maybe pin targets , or force them to retreat, or maybe reduce their charge distance, or affect their ability to shoot, or some combination of the above.

          • 40KstillRulesTheTT

            Eldar non noob players will cover the board so you will never ever 1st turn charge their reapers

      • LankTank

        Nah first turn charges if your opponent is stupid enough to allow it is fine. The only issue is spam. Because sone @$$ took 5 storm eagles now it has to be nerfed so noone can take even one. Cause every eldar player has 100 reapers, the nerf bat will be used. Malefic lordds are now useless cause players took 12. But GW will never get rid of spam cause its their bread and butter of sales. The real question then is why doesnt the event organisers restrict it and say a limit of 2 or 3 of any type of unit unless its a troop? Easy fix and instant balancing cause if a unit seems to be underpointed, a pkayer cant take 20 of them to capitilize

        • euansmith

          If only GW priced units according to their capabilities and limited their availability to promote the creation of “sensible” looking forces. 😉

          • LankTank

            Poor poor big mek guns. One of the worst cost to points ratio. But coolest model.

    • David

      Thats not really about flyers though thats about first turn shooting being too strong. Even wjth the ITC LoS blocking terrain buff.

      Shooting needs a nerf across the board. -1 to hit at greater than half range would be a good beta

      • Reven

        So at 24 inches I miss more, but at half range I get both not just extra shots and my accuracy improves?

        • David

          At 24″ you miss more at half you get what you currently would now

          • Munn

            And it screws over Orks to a frankly insulting degree and punishes short-mid range weapons FAR more than long range weapons, which you seem to have gotten.

            What you don’t get is how stupid that is. Long Range weapons are the PROBLEM, making melta guns dogcrap is just adding insult to injury.
            This idea is stupid.

          • David

            It allows orks to get more models into CC and rewards choppy hoard lists. Sure it changes how you build them but green tide is boosted Orks might even be more competative

            Define long range weapon the worst effected is the 36″ to 48″ range weapons that traditionally sat at the back. Mortars and Las cannons being at -1 beyond 24″ is a huge difference. Admittedly beyond 60″ range the effect is watered down but there are very few weapons in this category and most arnt broken.

            Melta guns are largely unaffected they fire as now at half range which is where they want to be as thats where they do bonus damage.

          • Reven

            Yes, but it would be an increase compared to longer range shooting. Wouldn’t it be kind of a big nerf to Ork Lootas? Meltaguns only hit normally within melta range? Orks that advance and fire their shootas since they aren’t charge range yet can’t hit anything? The Tau have even more trouble dealing with melee units rushing at them? Pistols not doing much when arriving from deepstrike. Mean while something like the Basilisk would never suffer that penalty due to it’s 12′ range would continue to rend portions of the enemy army when spammed.

            I just don’t know if a change like that would work for the more balanced forces, it would nerf the stronger alpha strike forces, but also drag down the one’s who already struggle to fire back. Some of the alpha strikes also come from people deepstriking into rapid fire range, by passing that rule anyways.

          • David

            I dont recall meltaguns being considered a problem infact most players in my area consider them underpowered so I don’t see them not being effected to much as a problem.

            Orks are probably worst hit of any faction but there melee isnt and at close range there guns work normally. I imagine it would make ork players look to traditionally orky green tide lists. The benefit orks get is that more of there models survive to make it to CC making up for there lack of shooting.

            Pistols dont do much as it is and an exception could be made to the rule for pistol weapons given there general short range

            The basilisk isnt effected but the HWT and Russ’s and infantry squads the acompany them are. They are also comparatively more effected due to BS4. Yes guard artillery are the least effected due to range. The majority of ranged attacks in the game are 48″ or less.

            As to tau yes it would be one more nail in an army like admech that doesnt really function as it is ment to. All hail kroot spam.

          • Reven

            See, it’s not that meltaguns are considered good it’s that your proposed rule idea would make them worse, just because you aren’t in melta range doesn’t mean you won’t fire the gun, it’s not like the previous edition where melta range almost always penned, instead it’s just a 2d6 pick the highest. Multimeltas would be even more overcosted for what they do. Crisis suits that deepstrike with most of their weapon options and up in the minus one area, none dark reaper eldar will have trouble being close enough to hit enough due to their shorter ranges that was to compensate for bladestorm.

            It would also make conscripts, who are terrible atm, BS1 at 12-24. The greentide would probably prefer the ability to shoot weapons as they advance rather than being slightly safer, the ones that felt it was too much to run up the board have been using Da Jump to deepstrike and get first turn charges.

            Plus if the enemy has any minus ones to hit things get even worse for players going against it.

            The problem with the current idea is that it’s a blanket nerf due to specific being spammed units, and it’s one that disproportionately effects other groups and weapons that were balanced with their ability to hit at range. Chances are even with a blanket nerf like that there will still be units that will do a lot of damage before the opponent gets to shoot. Plus if the enemy has any minus ones to hit things get even worse

          • David

            It would make every shooting gun worse melta guns would be no more effected and arguably less effected than othet guns as it is aimed to be used a at close range the majority of the time.

            Yes it would effecta lot of deepstrikeing its still shooting.

            I fail see your pt conscripts are unplayable as long as they are at the same pt as infantry apply this nerf they are still unplayable if anything they are unaffected.

            Yes there will probably a couple of outliers certain guard artillery for example but these could be handled on an individual basis

          • Reven

            The difficulty of getting the melta in range in the first place means it’s getting particularly punished, grenades are even worse. Just all of the T’au significantly worse. Just because Orks are choppy doesn’t mean Ork players want to play without fire support.

            The Fire Raptors that are causing the problem, being fliers would have no problem getting into half range and doing their long range alpha strikes anyways. It also wouldn’t deal with any form of melee alpha strikes that are around either. It severally hurts long range heavy weapons squads like Devastators and Retributors, while not really touching the current problem units. The Fire Raptors would be able to deploy far enough that the enemy has a minus 2 to shoot them then fly into their half range and blow away anything that’s a problem and neuter the enemy list if their forced to go second while the Dark Reapers still ignore all negative modifiers. Alaitoc Fliers would be -3 to hit until they decide to fly in and gun things down within their half range, Warp Spiders would be able to get able to get -4, Hornets -5.

            Raven Guard and Alpha Legion would also benefit greatly from having an -1 on top of their units. It’s just pushing things more towards the things that are already good while nerfing things considered balanced or weak.

          • David

            Its not just fire raptors causeing the problem its a whole range of tanks and artillery. CC alphas arn’t a problem because they can be countered by bubblewrap having half your army removed turn1 is a problem

            grenades like pistols could easily have an exemption due to there use at short range.

            Noone takes melta unless its on a fast delivery system like an attack bike that can get in position so not really a problem.

            As for ork players not having a build that works is a problem. Want a shooty fire support army great build another. No army does everything. Go orks for CC hoard use your second army of you want to shoot

            Tau is different but tau are largely broken now commander/drone spam and arguably kroot spam (no tau player wants it as its the equivalent of shooty orks) are the only viable builds

      • Lebowski1111111111

        no thanks. I already auto lose against armies that have -1 to hit modifiers when im going second, i dont need every army having the ability. I play Guard.

        • David

          Then I suggest not running a Carpark and note you have just evidenced that it would work at reducing shooty artillary lists.

          • Antoine Henry

            -1 to hit modifier is just a bad game mechanic, modifiying more is stupid. Being able to wound anything is strange, not being able to even fire is stupid… Orks can’t even try to shoot with a -2 to hit and that can now happen quite often. Broken game right now.

          • zeno666

            Yeah, Orks are well known for their shooting skills, they really should be able to hit that predator (from the movie Predator) using his camo thing.

          • Lebowski1111111111

            you have no idea what i run, thanks for the terrible suggestion.

          • David

            So your running a carpark

        • Mr.Gold

          what about +1 to hit at UNDER half range??

      • LankTank

        The issue is spam, not alpha strike

      • 40KstillRulesTheTT

        You mean itc rule saying bottom floor ruins block LOS « you do not see through the cracks » ?

    • Spade McTrowel

      I don’t think that they’re that bad.
      Personally, I think it’s the Tempest launcher that’s broken.
      As-is, it doesn’t fit the aspect – it doesn’t belong.
      As an anti-personnel weapon, I have no problem with it.
      For a fix:
      It should have the indirect fire trait removed at the very least.
      And either the number of shots – or the AP should be reduced. (both might be too much of a nerf).

      I see no problem with the unit size. Shielding and buffing a 10-elf unit is much easier than penny-packs.

      And the points for everything will always be in flux. They just had their points lowered less than a year ago, didn’t they?

  • Antoine Henry

    Saturday was my last game…Too many dice rollings, re-rolls, re-re-rolls and I shoot again with 2 CP and etc etc… Powercreep game, impossible to fix again. Tables are too small, Firing range is too long, melee is just who impacts first, buildings/etc are useless The only 3 things important : list-building/deployment positioning/who has first turn. You can remove deployment positioning if both player are good. So 99,9% of my games, I know if i won just by reading opponent lists, his deployment positioning and if he has first turn or not. Otherwise, luck come after with the mass dice-rolling and if you killed the key units. Movement is now a small part, cover is useless, armors are almost useless…. In the end, you can stop playing after 1st turn if you play well, as the outcome is evident. We keep playing because we think “we might” have a lucky dice rolls with very low probability that might impact the game. It can happen (i.e. : my opponent killed his own Azrael with supercharge…it changed the flow of the game) but thats just considering “luck” and its quite rare.

    • David

      Its because shooting is to powerfull it incentivises glass cannon lists that makes T1 too important.

    • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

      THIS.

    • SacTownBrian

      Invest in line of sight blocking terrain.

      • Antoine Henry

        No, in tournament scenes, blocking los terrain are quite rare but even, even in friendly match. Actually, it will benefit the already too powerful armies (I am a G.I player, blocking Los gives me a super boon and I would say Eldar players would like it too). No, fixing a game with blocking line of sight is a bad idea…Its good to have a few tho but it should not be the “solution”.

        • SacTownBrian

          More solutions for you:
          1) Play a different game.
          2) Stop playing the tournament scene
          3) Talk with your opponent prior to the game
          4) House rule the problem so you solve it yourself
          5) Just stop caring about winning and enjoy playing even for one turn.
          6) ad infinitum…

          • Antoine Henry

            Well : The 1) and 2) are exactly what I have chosen to do last saturday. Thank you for solutions I already apply. I never cared about winning, so 5 is ok, 3 & 4 is stupid game behavior, even when talking with opponent, game mechanics are broken and house ruling has always been a bad “GW fanboys solution” to prove that they “are” right that you can play like you want. Even house-ruling would not help with this game anymore 🙂

          • SacTownBrian

            Sounds like you’ve moved on from GW games so that will be good for your mental health. But why do you keep picking at the scab by trolling people that actually like the GW games?

      • Karru

        The problem I always have with this argument is that it actually just makes my armies absolutely unstoppable since I always play extremely aggressive assault lists. Since 8th edition demands Cities of Death levels of LoS blocking terrain, it really isn’t a good argument to just say “Get more LoS blocking terrain brah”

        • ZeeLobby

          Well and that’s it. LoS blocking terrain just lets assault armies win. Without it shooting armies win. With an average amount shooting armies just move to areas where they have good fields of fire and still win. So unless GW is going to develop scenarios with set terrain pieces, terrain will simply never be a solution.

          • Mr.Gold

            set up the terrain by a neutral player (e.g. a store manager/other hobbyist) or instead of a roll off to pick sides, roll a D6 (again this could be a 3rd party) 1,2 or 3 you go one side and 4-6 you go the other, your opponant takes the alternative side, if playing on a square table (e.g. 2″” by 2″” for a small game) you could even number the sides and roll with re-rolling the 5&6 (this could also lend itself to a fun mission where both players roll off and take the side they rolled and so come on at an angle to each other…)

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I mean there are solutions, but they all require work. And even after all that work, you still might end up with a table where both sides favor one army. In a game where LoS blocking terrain plays such a huge impact (and quite honestly one of the only impacts in the terrain rules), there’s just way too much space for imbalance to spring up. If your playing with a friend who wants to make things as balanced as possible, it requires a lot of pregame discussion and set up. GW could solve this by having terrain placement in the scenarios, but that would require effort on their part.

        • Koonitz

          You might do well, but that’s because you’re probably generally facing off against people who are used to fighting on planet bowling ball, where line of sight was rarely, if ever, a concern. If they know they’re going to get charged by an aggressive assault force with little ability to counter, even on turn one, they may adjust their list accordingly, maybe add a counter assault unit or two.

          Playing a single game in tight, close quarters tables isn’t really going to give people the chance to adjust properly.

          You could always try Zone Mortalis. See how the long ranged shooty armies work, then, when they’ll be lucky to have more than 18″ of visibility.

          People need to stop playing the same tournament-esque, matched play scenarios on samey, tournament-esque tables. Have fun. And if that means you’re going to get your gonads kicked in by a super-aggressive assault force, then you will. Enjoy the game anyway, and come back next time, ready to kick ’em back.

    • zeno666

      Please tell me you where playing Maelstrom Missions as well?

      • Antoine Henry

        Well, Maelstrom is great when you do not get tabled by your opponent isn’t it ? Yes I play only Open-Play / Maelstrom missions and sometimes narrative play in a matched play format. You can try whatever you want, The guy that annihilate 50% of an ennemy turn1 will win a Maelstrom mission.

        • zeno666

          I’m with you. The game is crap as things are now.
          But the Maelstrom Missions are really a steaming pile of garbage.
          Why even bother deploying?
          You can just go through the turns pulling the cards to see how things will go.
          I’ve had several games where my opponent didn’t leave his deployment zone and still won.
          Just because he was lucky with his cards.

  • David

    The Perpetual Motion Command Point Generator

    Its quite clear atleast on the imperium ones it specifies as long as the model is on the field. So it works from that models deployment onwards (not in deepstrike or in transport)

  • AB

    They’ll balance that and then it’ll be something else. They will not be able to balance 40k 8th edition properly. It’s far to easy to build an army that can wipe the other guys army out in the first 2 turns. The fact people copy tournament lists makes this tendency worse. At this point I think they’d have to overhaul everything to bring some semblance of balance.

    ATM even if you don’t try to build the list that way it’s far to easy to badly hurt the other side in the shooting phase if you go first, you can basically win in the first turn. I think a big part of the problem is it’s far to easy to hit the other side with shooting, unit ranges are far to high. My brother and I use a rule where during the first turn you can only shoot with half of your army first and then the other guy get’s to shoot the same amount. So if my army has 10 squads and his 15 after I shoot with 5 of mine he can then shoot with 5 and then I finish my shooting. It’s far from perfect but the other side been able to retaliate in some way before you hit them with your entire army changes the game and makes it a lot harder to destroy an army turn 1 and 2. We tried AA and found it shuts down assaulting armies to easily think GW would have to rebuild the system for that to work properly.

    • Hrudian

      That’s a neat idea actually. I think the most important “problem” GW has to tackle is this huge advantage of going first. Maybe a mandatory nightfight turn 1 for every mission could be an alternative.

      • Munn

        Not if you want any army but eldar to win ever again.

      • Mr.Gold

        A Game I played recently had a 12″ max range first trun on guns, this then went up by 6″ each turn…

    • euansmith
      • zeno666

        That sure gives me more 40k feeling than the current Lego game looks like on the table.

        I would actully prefer something in between. Don’t remember what scale Epic was at.
        But 15mm should look and play nice.

      • kloosterboer

        Those were epic days. No pun intended.

        • euansmith

          We had Squats back then too 😀

    • David

      That fix doesn’t work i mearly take 200pts if AM infantry to let my 5 tanks shoot as normal (and the infantry was for bubble wrap anyway.

      Also -1 to hit at more than half range would do the job better

      ITC terrain blockinh helps but its not enough

  • Ángel Bizarre

    I generally agree with the points made, but I think you’re asking too much for what is just a FAQ. If all this gets through, it would shake up the game more than Chapter Approved did.

  • James Regan

    I suspect the indexes won’t be phased out until everyone has a codex, so i’d be prepared to wait on that front. That way you can’t have any issues with wording or concerns over what is and isn’t valid, and your weird loadouts that were deliberately left out of the codex might be slightly more inconvenient, but will still exist for a time.

    The command point thing is, i expect, literally a need for an FAQ (can these be used before deployment? no/yes) so should be easy to fix, or at least clarify.

    • David

      Except that wont happen because
      1) so many index only units they didn’t put in codexs eg rough riders
      2) why sould GW let you get away with buying only 1 book when they can charge you for 2 (or better 3 with FW) it goes against there ethos.

      Next you’ll be suggesting selling rulebooks withought chargeing you for a 100 pages of fluff and pretty pictures that you dont want and make it harder to play the game

      • James Regan

        you do realise they took those units out of the codex because they do not sell those units, and they believe that including them promotes 3rd party sales, right? I mean, i’m not saying they aren’t being greedy, but what i am saying is they won’t keep the indexes up once all the relevant factions get codexes- even with sisters, i’m sure they’d rather put out a codex and force you to buy it again than leave them as an index faction permanently.

        • Mr.Gold

          I just wish they would do another Imperial Agents Codex like 7th Ed…

          • Reven

            I hope they don’t, I hated that thing lol.

        • Reven

          Oh like the Grandmaster in a Dreadknight?

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Indexes will go a short while after all the Faction Codices are published; I’d give it until 6 months after this – so Nov/Dec time this year. Any datasheets, like Rough-Riders, will simply be left by the wayside until GW, if at all, decide to produce kits for them. Believing the Index’s will stick around for all time is foolish thing to think.

  • Defenestratus

    Oh hey, Thomas still complaining about Eldar. New edition yet nothing changes I guess..

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Gamers need to calm down on speculation as to what may or may not get looked at or addressed in the March FAQ update to 8th. I don’t personally think there will be any sweeping changes and very highly unlikely any point changes – GW have stated points changes will be done via Chapter Approved. An awful lot of hobbyist are going to be disappointed if they have their hearts set on very specific things – namely this whole Dark Reapers debacle; which, to me is being blown way out of proportion. Gamers will only have themselves to blame for this disappointment on the things they imagined would happen, but will likely still bemoan GW.

    I would think the biggest tweaks with be the two changes that have been specifically road tested at LVO and released to the community for feedback i.e. Character Targeting restrictions and Psychic Focus*. Beyond that, I reckon the vast majority of the FAQs will just be a bunch of “rules as intended” and “rules interaction” clarifications, with errata to wordings where needed.

    *If I were a betting man, I would hazard Grey Knight will get an exemption added to Rite of Banishment in regards to this.

    • Munn

      If they don’t fix dark reapers, 50% of the field will be eldar at every tournament until a more broken codex comes out. If they don’t fix Ynnari, the DE book may well put us back to 7th ed levels.

      • Reven

        Perhaps the T’au shall for the greater good take the mantle of power once more for the good of the hobby, we won’t understand why the entire tau army got rerolls against Dark Reapers, and why the Riptide was only 5 points, but we are thankful the eldar meta passed and we can return to hating those blueberry weebs again.

  • Solvagon

    I am generally curious how approximately 80% of commenters lose first turn because they get shot off the table. Seriously, are you all playing melee armies that deploy as far forward as possible without any protection for your vital units?

    I really, really have not seen a single game this edition (online or in person) where a unrecoverable first turn disaster for one person was not the result of questionable tactic decisions…

    • Munn

      it can happen to certain index armies. Deathwatch, Harlequins, SoB if the opponent has infiltrators, certain tyranid builds, Knights, etc. It’s not as common as most people claim but it can happen.

      • Reven

        As a Sisters of battle player, if I don’t start near the line it can be very difficult to get up to my optimal ranges rhino hulls are only so durable and slow down pretty quickly after a bit of damage.

        • Solvagon

          Honest question, do you feel severly disadvantaged with Sisters against codex armies? Granted, the sisters player I play against usually allies in a couple hundred points of GK or AM, but from my experience I would rate them as the strongest Index army and on par or better as things like Admech, GK or non Gulliman Spacemarines.

          • Reven

            I feel that they are currently holding their own better then in seventh, but when I picked my army I knew that most of my matches would be an uphill battle. When people aren’t going all out they I tend to find they do alright, and against the lesser codices like Grey Knights it’s generally fairly close to even.

            It would help if I could get my hands on some repressors though lol.

          • 40KstillRulesTheTT

            Yep sisters are still quite good, even after the latest codex, and really work well with allied under costed assassins.

      • Solvagon

        But.. that is not a flaw in the system. It is literally the “do you have a codex yet” thing that existed in every iteration of this game….

    • HeadHunter

      Probably because they don’t understand how to actually command an army. They don’t use cover or LOS blocking, maneuver means nothing to them and they’re unable to adapt.
      But if more than half the players are getting wiped first turn, we have a statistical aberration. If more than half the players lose, fewer than half the players win – and that’s impossible even in spite of incompetent commanders. Leads me to suspect that the “problem” is not as significant as we might be led to believe – clearly, the ones who do know how to conduct a first turn are not going to whine about it.

    • orionburn III

      While poor deployment can be the reason for a lot of complaints there are armies that really struggle no matter the amount of terrain. I’ve certainly adjusted with my Nids. I use pods and Trygons more than I used. Unfortunately not everything can go in there and you can run out of room quickly on the table leaving you no choice but to have a blob of troops out in the open. As you said though, you have to plan for those things to happen, just as getting a bad map can greatly impact the flow of a game.

      We had a guy in our group that used to get so upset when things would get killed on T1, but he was deploying deadly stuff right out in the open. Of course people are going to shoot at a Vindicator or Dread that’s right in front.

      • LankTank

        Hah ive seen that player. “Here is my baneblade right smack in the middle”. Awesome I use 600pts worth of modeks, 3 cp to make a decisive tactical strike and kill it. “Waaaah! Alpha strike bs! I wanted to kill everything with my baneblade!” But then any game where that baneblade doesnt die and wipes units off the table in the first turn, no complaints. Funny that

    • Doug Crawford

      When a hard hitting assault unit like shinning spears can move up to 46″ in a turn and a unit of 10 reapers can put out 20 or more shots with reroll to hit and wound. It can make it very hard to come back from.

    • Karru

      In 8th these days, I am the one that ends the game at the 2nd turn with my list changes I have done when playing outside my group.

      Rarely have I come across a situation where first turn is the end of all things, but it has had significant effect on my winrate whenever I don’t get it. I have won 96% of the games I have gone first and lost 76% of the games I have gone second. (These stats are outside my groups so with no modifications to the standard rules)

      It is very simple why the first turn has such a massive advantage this edition. So many units in the game can easily cross the no man’s land in one turn, be in an unstoppable position by the start of turn 2 and my opponent only had one turn to stop me.

      I spread around the entire table length with multiple Transports filled with units, I usually also run a unit I can either drop in or charge into the enemy lines on the first turn. I also run multiple “Inflitration” units that I can place as close to the enemy frontline as I can so that he can’t stop my DS units from getting within the minimal distance they can. Then I use one of the multiple rules that allows me to either move again in the Psychic/Shooting Phase and then charge the enemy frontline with my shock unit, bypassing all enemy bubblewrap units usually or using clever charging, attack multiple units at the same time so I can tie them up until my main force gets there.

      When 2nd turn starts, if I had the first turn I only need to suffer one round of shooting and since I have multiple units scattered across the entire battlefield, I make sure there are no good places for a counter-drop from the enemy, my opponent now finds himself in a position where his main units are about to be charged by multiple transport vehicles and possibly melee units depending on the army I play. I pretty much take over the entirety of the board by the end of turn 2 since I am all the way in my opponent’s deployment zone and can if I want, move to touch their table edge.

      What can my opponent do to stop all this? Not much outside tailoring a list that hard counters it or getting the first turn and hope he can do enough damage on the two shooting phases he has before I impact his line.

    • LankTank

      I completely agree. In fact alot of certain armies still prefer turn 2. Death guard vs a combat army want turn 2

  • Doug Crawford

    Sisters of battle FW vehicle repressor I think, it can shot into a unit than charge in and tie up a couple in the opponents turn then in its turn pull out of combat and the unit inside the vehicle can shoot out because FW forgot to put that the unit embarked can not shoot if the vehicle disengaged from combat.

    • Reven

      From my understanding the repressor can be IN combat and have the embarked unit still shoot.

  • Luca Lacchini

    Leave my Index alone!
    It’s the only way I can field Brother Aimadeo, the conversion beamer toting techmarine.
    Or the Teta Boothis Rough Riders.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Indexes will go a short while after all the Faction Codices are published; I’d give it until 6 months after this – so Nov/Dec time this year. Any datasheets, like Rough-Riders, will simply be left by the wayside until GW, if at all, decide to produce kits for them. Believing the Index’s will stick around for all time is foolish thing to think. That won’t stop you using the Index datasheet in friendly games and it will be down to tournament organiser to decide if you could still use them for that event.

  • D W Hawthorne

    Rather than tweak Dark Reapers you could start with reducing the abusive volume of stackable -1 to hit modifiers, of which Dark Reaper spam is a symptom. Though it does seem pretty clear that you simply hate Eldar.

    • Drpx

      Who doesn’t? Even the Eldar players at my store go out of their way to avoid playing each other.

    • EmperorOfMankind

      That’s like 50% of the people that comment here too.

      • Drpx

        Getting taken apart by an enemy you can’t seem to make a dent in isn’t fun. Wasn’t fun with 3–5th ed. Necrons, wasn’t fun with fish of fury Tau, and it’s not fun with -3 to hit Eldar.

        • EmperorOfMankind

          OK so Nerf that then.

  • SacTownBrian

    Indexes are here for the long haul. There are too many units in them that didn’t make their way into a codex.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Indexes will go a short while after all the Faction Codices are published; I’d give it until 6 months after this – so Nov/Dec time this year. Any datasheets, like Rough-Riders, will simply be left by the wayside until GW, if at all, decide to produce kits for them. Believing the Index’s will hang around for all time is foolish thing to think.

  • BigGrim

    reapers don’t need nerfed. Just don’t allow the Ynnari to take them since, y’know, they’re the actual problem. Though a minimum size of 5 is fine too since that’s the box size. Nothing wrong with the Tempest Launcher either.

    • Arykaas

      what boggles my mind is why the hell can Ynnaris get Aspects (OF KHAINE!) Warriors. It should be something like “if detachement is Ynnari, no aspect Warriors can be part of it”

      Want Ynnaris AND Aspects Warrior in your army ? separate detachments. Simple and lorefriendly way to nerf without overnerfing anything.

      (Drukhari’s Incubi are a tougher subject fluff-wise : they are devoted to an aspect of Khaine, but many followed mister-red-armor during the events of the Fracture of Biel-Tan)

      • BigGrim

        I’m with you man.

      • Reven

        Didn’t Jain Zar side with the Ynnaris during that book?

        • Arykaas

          “Siding with” is different from “being” Ynnarri.

          Though Jain-Zar seems to be fond of the Ynnaris, saying that new god is a new hope for all Aeldaris ….. Inb4 new Aspect warriors of Ynnead XD

          For example : You can do 3 detachment from different Space Marines chapters, that does not mean they unite as a single new chapter, just they fight together for a common cause.

  • Warrior24_7

    Yep, just can’t wait to see the wild over corrections and nerfs that will make whole units unusable and overpriced.

    • zeno666

      Thats how GW do things. We’ve seen it many times before.

      • Warrior24_7

        And that’s why the game started dying…and here we are in 8th, rinse and repeat.

      • ZeeLobby

        I think you misread what he said, GW has never really done nerfs, and they never really corrected anything, they just took blind swings at stuff. 8th is the first time they’ve actually even tried approaching balance in a long time. They just released the game in a totally broken initial state and have no experience doing so.

        • Warrior24_7

          He didn’t misread anything. What you’ve just said is absolute lunacy.

          • ZeeLobby

            I’m sure he did, because, you know, he’s sane and all. If you believe GW has been nerfing units for years, you have no idea how GW operates. They haven’t actively nerfed anything until this edition. If power levels went up and down in the past it was due to sheer luck.

  • HurricaneGirl

    Give Eldar the equivalent of a Primarch then we can talk about nerfs.

    • Median Trace

      Primarchs really dominated the LVO. So many in the Top 8. Oh wait…

    • KingAceNumber1

      Why? Honest question. The army is above the bell curve. I don’t know what the addition of a super character would do for them or fix.

    • Reven

      The Avatar of Khaine? The Avatar of Ynned? Maybe the Pheonix lords? Elrad? Wraith Knights? Like are we just looking at size? Army role? What is it that you’d want?

  • mgdavey

    I’d like to see a FAQ that states “If a player ‘deepstrikes’ a unit on to the table before the end of their movement phase, they can be asked to remove to model until the end of their movement phase.”

  • The only thing in this I have an opinion on is the index. For me, If the index is what I want to play then that’s what I will be playing. I paid for it I’m going to use it if I want to. If for some reason the codex for my army is bad and the index is better, I don’t think that will happen, I’ll just continue to play with the index. I don’t foresee using both an Index and a codex together for my lists I’m sure it will be one or the other. Not that it will matter in my group.

  • Defenestratus

    I’m wondering why we’re having these debates. I thought 8th edition was supposed to have fixed all of these imbalances. Seems to me that we’re just putting a new coat of paint on the same complaints from 7th edition – except possibly worse. It seems that people are complaining about being alpha striked right off the table turn one – and this time there’s no leaf-blower list that can be blamed solely.

    For an edition whose development was ushered by the “competitive community” it’s showing extremely poor results if you ask me.

    • euansmith

      Haven’t you heard; the new tournament hotness is the hour and a half deployment phase?

    • Warrior24_7

      These same complaints (and complainers) just migrate from edition to edition, it’ll never stop, ever!

  • JPMcMillen

    Imperium Index 2 isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. That won’t happen till SOB and SOS get codices, and I haven’t heard anything about hell freezing over or sightings of pigs flying overhead.

  • Warrior24_7

    A new FAQ in March alongside a new codex release, that’s not in the new FAQ, oh the joy!

  • Marcus Clark

    I think something needs to be done with turn 1 wipe out, like the old night fighting rule, or maybe first turn units cannot advance/ deep strike, cautious approach? Something along those lines that makes more sense narrative wise. Or even give the player that lost the roll off a bunker down ability giving a +1 cover to all infantry vs shooting. Something along those lines. to many games you can predict the outcome end of turn 1 rather turn 2/3.
    I think the idea of changing reapers to D3 damage, makes sense and fits with other races heavy weapons output and let them keep their always hit on 3’s.
    Flyers and tanks qty should also be restricted unless its an army special trait eg Cadian armour battalion, Imperial Knight conclave.
    No more army’s with venerable dreadnoughts armed with lascannons etc etc.
    Yannari should be more limited in what they can field eg. strategy’s and units. Infantry is fine but elite units and vehicles should be restricted. For example they can have 1 unit of reapers and 1 fire prysim from the craft-world faction and as many regular troops as points require. From the Drukari they can also take a unit of scourges and a razor wing and from the harlequins 1 Deathjester and a Voidweaver. Capping what they can field makes the most sense as they are a smaller faction why would get full access to everything.

  • NNextremNN

    If not everything from the index is taken to the codex they should not invalidate. … Also they won’t do this so they can still sell them …