BREAKING: WFB Rumors: Age of Sigmar is the Future

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We are hearing word from multiple retailers that the future may be here already for Warhammer.  Prepare yourselves and get in here:

via multiple retailers

We are now getting in preliminary reports from multiple retailers of snippets of information they have received from GW representatives regrading Age of Sigmar and Warhammer in general.  Here goes:

 

– It’s not 9th edition WFB, its a totally different game.

– There is no 9th edition coming.

– There is no huge rule book coming. Age of Sigmar is the main product. 

-The 96 page book in the box is a hobby book, painting, history, how to play examples etc.

– The 4 pages of rules is indeed the rules. Laminated.

-The 4 pages of rules and all War Scrolls will be free and online July 4th at midnight. This will be a living document.

-There may be additional books in the near future, hobbyist/collectors items. Not at all needed for the game, and may not even have the rules in the them. Things such as: Age of Sigmar: Epic Book of pictures, how to paint….etc.

-There is no Hardcover big rulebook like we had in WFB, no 3 rule books in a slipcover like in 40k. Just the Age of Sigmar box.

-Cost is $125.00 in the US

 

Earlier rumormongers including Harry months back were saying a “full rulebook” would be coming a month or two down the road, but this latest set has come in from multiple retailers who have talked to their reps regarding Age of Sigmar.  So this is the most current information we are receiving. Time will tell and GW sales reps have been wrong in the past about future releases, but there are now competing camps out there regarding the existence of a  “full WFB 9th rulebook”.

On the other hand we have this on the way ahead for Age of Sigmar (note the “ravening hordes-style rules” product mentioned which may be the format “full rules” may appear in):

via warseer’s olderplayer

“GW is reportedly shifting to selling warscrolls (smaller and more focused army factions) to avoid selling army books/factions at least initially and to roll out new units and factions more frequently. You will be able, once the ravening hordes-style rules are out, to play your old models and units and play mass battles, but the fancy special rules and new units will be more tailored to the new game, i.e. force you to buy the new warscrolls and models to play the game competitively and keep up with the game… The focus of the new game is basically like 40K more in units and models but with more of an infantry-based fantasy/combat focus (fewer models and units, quicker games to encourage new players) but then scalable up to play larger unit sizes and battles…  ET was a diversion while GW developed and completed AoS alternative.”

Age of Sigmar Roundup

~Age of Sigmar may indeed be the future of Warhammer Fantasy.  

 

 

  • Mach13

    No big unit option seems kind of sad. I’m looking forward to this as I never got into WFB because of the cost of the big units. For all those peeps who did though, particularly all those who dove in to end times, it seems a bit rude to just stop supporting that style of play.

    • Senllus

      As one of those peeps, the whole thing is pretty disheartening.

      • Marky

        Yip, but if “whfb 8th players edition” goes down well and is a single accepted rule set (not 10 splinter groups) then we will be in a better position than before. Rules made for balance rather than sales, no new editions to worry about.. my hope lies in ETC making an announcement soon that they are choosing to continue to play 8th in 2016

        • Boondale

          The rules are made for sales, you will need to buy the new model sets to keep up with the games development.

          • wibbling

            No, you don’t. You can choose to, but you do not *have* to.

          • Ben_S

            It’s a hypothetical imperative. Sure, you don’t have to keep up with the game’s development but, in order to do so, you will need to buy the new model sets.

            That’s the worry. Even if GW release free warscrolls for existing WFB models, once players are emotionally invested, they will have to buy the new models if they want to keep up with the game.

          • hamilton geyser

            that’s absurd

          • Ben_S

            It may or may not be true, I was only clarifying (for Wibbling’s benefit) what Boondale said, which was itself only repeating the last quotation in the article:

            “You will be able, once the ravening hordes-style rules are out, to play your old models and units and play mass battles, but the fancy special rules and new units will be more tailored to the new game, i.e. force you to buy the new warscrolls and models to play the game competitively and keep up with the game”

            Of course you’re not forced to buy new models, because you’re not forced to keep up with the game, but you are forced to buy new models in order to keep up with the game.

          • David Leimbach

            You can use similarly sized models. You can make models from play-do if you like. You can download the free rules, and use rocks and sticks if you like.

            The only reason to buy the models is because you like the models, and want them. And they’re models designed to appeal to the most people – designed to make you want to buy them.

            There’s no evil at work here guys. They’re trying to get you to buy the best game they can offer while making a profit.

          • Tim Whitehead

            It’s all made for sales, End Times was to generate sales a new codex’s and model for 40k is for sales. What exactly is your point?

          • Ben

            News at 11! In a shocking turn of events, we now find that businesses want to sell product for a profit!!!

      • wibbling

        So play Warhammer 8th edition to your hearts content. If you want to, play 1st, 6th or Kings of War. Make up your own rules. Adapt, change. Make the game your own.

        For goodness sake man. It’s a game. The point is to enjoy yourself with your friends. It’s not a competition. It is simply a game. Play it how you want to.

        • Marky

          I also like playing strangers. So the community needs to adopt a uniform mass battle rule set – or it will be hard to play how ibwant to play.

          • This is very true, one proviso being; the “hobby” is a whole series of communities, most supported by a company producing product and rightly or wrongly being the final arbiter.

            It GW really is selling WFB completely down the river, such communities have a tendency to become rudderless. The danger is it fragments into half a dozen factions all playing different child rule sets. That’s slow death for that community.

            From a personal viewpoint I’d encourage the community to move on mass to something else. My local club is dominated (60% of games some nights) by Bloodbowl. A completely unsupported zombie game. With so much good stuff being put out by so many deserving companies, it’s frustrating to see the majority of local gamers doting over a corpse and financially contributing nothing to the industry.

        • AircoolUK

          Me and my friends play 3rd. Its the edition we’re most familiar with, and the edition that ‘feels right’.

          AoS does come across as very modern, and seems to tick all the boxes I’d want for a new fantasy game from GW.

    • Tmullen

      Its a total bummer. But i think GW is changing how the game works to increase the fanbase…because the fanbase who played 8thed and the ET style games couldnt support the system realistically. GW is basically saying go pound salt, we bet we can make more money with these othwr people…

      Youre welcome to come along though and join the new game.

      • benn grimm

        I hear this a lot. I wonder what it is based on? Where will all these new customers come from? The people who played Fantasy were the people most interested/most likely to buy this sort of thing. Alienate them and I’m just wondering, who exactly is going to buy this? 40k players? Ex-Lotr guys? Or just a whole new demographic of people who arent really into wargmes and minis, but wow, AOS is just so good they just have to get on board…?

        Who promotes fantasy? Gamers. Who will promote AOS? Gamers. Who are getting shafted here? Thats right. Gamers, loyal customers who never stopped buying all the rubbish they put out.

        • Tmullen

          Oh i agree with you man, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense. But apparently the chance this could sell more was all GW needed. Apparently the cost of this game for them is less than fantasy, or what fantasy players could hope to support in the old format. Its a bummer. But it all has to do with money. The old format just wasnt sustainable fiscally. Im not tryimg to ruffle any feathers.

          Also maybe the lower entry costs the game has now, will bring in new players from other systems. I always liked warhammer fluff but never wanted to buy the army opposed to 40k, but now that its cheaper im tossing around the idea of playing AoS as a side distraction to 40/30k. Just my two cent.

          • benn grimm

            Sorry wasn’t getting at you personally, I just think there has to be a limit to what wargamers are willing to spend on new models, and there is definitely a natural limit on the number of wargamers that can ever exist. Its a niche market at the end of the day and all the advertising I have seen for AOS has been at the local gw.

            I wager Total war warhammer will do more for fantasy mini sales than this will ever do, because it has the ability to reach new potential customers. Thats the sort of thing we need to help build and sustain the community.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I think its funny that as Total War:Warhammer comes out, a marvellous advert which could potentially do as much for WHFB as Dawn of War did for 40K, WHFB isn’t there any more to receive the new players. Good timing, GW.

          • benn grimm

            It does seem like a slightly overall muddled policy overall, however, who knows, maybe the ‘age of steel’ followup rumour will be true and we’ll get classic fantasy back in all its glory! 🙂

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            lets hope!

          • deris87

            It’s the “New Coke” strategy applied to war games.

          • A Legalist

            Yep. GW trying to cash in on what Warmachine and X-wing are doing.

          • A Legalist

            Who said GW was good at Marketing. 🙂

        • Sythica

          You’re saying what I’ve been thinking. If indeed it is GW’s plan to target new players entirely, then you might actually need to do some marketing in places where these “new players” are. If your plan revolved entirely around White Dwarf and your own retail stores, then by definition, you can’t earn a single new customer.

          The only hope (other than going outside of gaming stores entirely) was to get independent retailers on-side a long time ago, to help them market aggressively to new customers. 1 to 2 weeks notice with little to no useful information isn’t going to cut it.

        • In the last several years, Fantasy has accounted for about 15% of GW’s total sales volume worldwide. End Times didn’t change that.

          Losing that tiny piece of the population is acceptable if they gain access to the other 85%.

          It’s a gamble, yes. They’re going to lose at lot of their current Fantasy players. They know that. But if you lose one customer in order to gain six, you’re making more money than you were before.

          And… Fantasy was a heavy, lurching relic of the 1980s that hadn’t seen any significant evolution for longer than many of its players have been alive. The entire design framework of the game, the entire thought process that created it, has been obsolete for fifteen years. It’s no surprise that it was losing customers to younger companies with more modern products.

          Look at AoS in the context of its competitors IN 2015, and it begins to make sense.

          It’s light and agile; easy to learn and quick to play. it scales DOWN very well and is playable with only a handful of models. The basic rules are free, and the unit-specific rules are included with the models.

          From a design philosophy standpoint, it has more in common with Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux and X-Wing than it has with Fantasy or 40K.

          And ultimately, that’s a good thing. GW has needed a MODERN game, one designed in the 21st century with 21st century philosophy and aesthetics (wait’ll you see the new artwork. Reminds me of M:tG in a good way), for years now.

          You may hate that. Most extant Fantasy players may. But frankly, there are so few of us left that what we think doesn’t matter, and like it or not, scrapping Fantasy to replace it with a game designed within the lifetimes of its players is the most correct decision GW could make.

          • benn grimm

            Gw clearly values their IP, but doesn’t seem to value the consumer investment in said IP, which as you’ve said, is a gamble. But my worry is that there is a ceiling for how many wargamers there can be, especially with all those other games out there, which seemingly, offer a lot more. I think quite a few 40k guys/ fantasy guys/hobbyists, and lots of parents will buy this, but I don’t see where the numbers will come from to sustain it once the initial wow factor has worn thin.

            Brand loyalty costs a lot, it took a long time to build up the current fantasy player base. And there are plenty of us, maybe not where you are, but locally, it will be Fantasy players (and maybe a couple of awkward looking 40k’ers) who are packed into local stores, learning AOS on launch day so they can demo it at clubs and schools. Because we want to build the hobby, we have to push what’s new and fresh and hope the kids like it. I’d just rather they’d fixed fantasy, built on what they had in a meaningful way, instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

            Anyway, we shall see, I’m kind of curious as to where it will go. On one hand I’d like it to succeed because then gw has more money to make cool new things and not go bust etc, but I’m concerned that success will mean them doing a similar thing to 40k, which would be about the worst thing that could happen at this point. Then I’d really have to spend time learning all the warmahordes rules, and I’m far too lazy for that..;)

          • jim

            Finely someone that knows how to use paragraphs lol. It’s an endless wonder what there overall strategy is.

          • wibbling

            Finally and their. Homophones aren’t complicated.

            Games Workshop want to sell models. That’s all. That is evident form their every single piece of marketing and business reporting.

            Fantasy might struggle simply because it doesn’t have the depth and history that 40K does.

          • vonevilstein

            Interestingly, reading the new fluff from various sites, it appears they’ve created a similar period of time that is described in a little detail but not actually the current setting. It’s not End of Old World>AoS, it’s End of Old World>AoM(yth)>AoC(haos)>AoS. I wonder if that will come into play at some point in the future.

          • I wasn’t making up nor exaggerating that 15% number, and your Fantasy-heavy meta is the exception, not the rule. If you don’t believe me, ask your local Redshirt. Brand loyalty is meaningless when the brand people are loyal to isn’t making you money, and that’s been the case with Fantasy for several years now.

            How will AoS succeed? The same way 40k does: with continued release of content. This isn’t a one-and-done splash release. This is the starter set of a new core line, with more to follow.

          • benn grimm

            I’m sure you weren’t, I just don’t particularly want to get into debating what statistics and figures mean or don’t mean.

            Brand loyalty isn’t meaningless when you’ve invested as much into it over the years as gw has, in the uk at least, on a local level, and I don’t think we are particularly unique, i know that most major towns/cities in the uk have at least some sort of thriving fantasy community, i know from personal account its pretty big in Scandinavia and France. There might be a lot of hate online, but locally they know how to cultivate grass roots, and milk compulsive ‘veterans’ for all they’re worth, in my albeit limited experience anyway.

            There hasn’t been any other promotion, other than in store, so this will reach only the people who want to travel to stores, or to people who are in the know online, most of whom already own all the army they’ll ever need. I wouldn’t have thought this is going to miraculously pluck wargamers from the aether for gw to suck cash from. I’m sure they’ll sell lots of boxes; to the exact same people who literally buy anything and everything they put out.

          • So this came from a red shirt then?

            Everything I’ve heard for a decade with the company had it at around 30% globally. I’ve been out a good few years, but I highly, highly doubt it’s halved because of 8th.

            So it’s a [citation needed] from me.

          • Yes, it’s from a redshirt, who’d just come back from last weekend’s company meeting in Minnesota and heard it there. I trust the source, but for reasons which should be obvious I won’t name him.

          • Matt

            That’s still $38,000 ,000. Do you think AoS will bring in $38,000,000? That means they have to sell 304,000 AoS in the next year to break even. I’m not buying one. I’ll try out my existing armies and see if it’s worth playing first.

          • Nameless

            I don’t know where the 15% figure came from, but assuming it is accurate it certainly doesn’t indicate the number of fantasy players.

            Given the pretty slow (by comparison with 40k) release scheduled for fantasy, the limited appeal of the end times books(affecting only a hand full of armies, and being very expensive for what amounted to a small campaign book and a novel) and most importantly the uncertainty of the game for the last 18 months I would argue that the number of people interested in fantasy is likely much higher.

            From both personal experience and speaking with other customers and staff it is hard to find the enthusiasm to buy build and paint miniatures that we know nothing about the future of.

            Age of Sigmar will likely appeal to a different audience (40k players for example) but I do wonder if it will be able to keep them interested in the long run.

          • AircoolUK

            Ultimately, GW will have the marketing figures from their shops, websites and third party retailers.

            Presumably, the profit margin on fantasy isn’t high enough to warrant further development.

          • Any basis to this 15% claim. Last I heard it was a 2 for 1 split with 40K with LotR delivering tiny amounts. That means it’s likely double your figure. We must also remember that even with lower total sales WFB like so GW’s products were extremely profitable. GW own their production and tooling facilities, producing plastic kits is far cheaper for them than any other company. Essentially labour, tool head wear and a block of stainless steel, (very likely 4 figure sum all in). Also worth bearing in mind the tooling chaps and sculptors are on salary with GW so they get paid regardless.

            All that means, they don’t have to sell many kits at their 70-80% gross to get their investment back.

            AoS is more about clearing space in stores. I fully expect most WFB stock will be direct only in the coming months. This frees up space for more fast moving 40K stock, increasing margins regardless of the success or failure of AoS.

          • Cryric

            I was at my local shop yesterday and the red shirt there had just gotten back from the North American meeting that GW had to brief them on the new AOS.

            The local group all had lots of questions about the meeting and AOS.

            Our red shirt asked, “Do you know what the number 13 means to GW?”
            us: Nope
            “13%…Over the past 5 years, 13% was the total sales of fantasy of the entire line. In the past year the paints have sold more then the fantasy sold over 5 years. Also just the line of space marines (all flavors) in one year has out sold 5 years of fantasy.”

            They went on to say that the 15% is the GLOBAL sales percent over the past 5 years of fantasy.
            AOS has been play-tested at GW for over a year…so they have been refining and going over all the items for a bit of time…so I don’t think that AOS will be “that” broken and should be kinda fun.

            Having said that, this company has been doing 52 new products/releases a year…how many other companies do that?
            This now gives them a new way to continue a 52+ product/release cycle and hopefully boost existing sales of the models above the 15%.

          • Nameless

            Okay, not to say call you out but those figures just don’t add up. if Fantasy equates to 13% of annual sales (averaging over 5 years) then the space marines would have to make up >65% of the annual sales (13*5) and paints would have to make up over >13% of annual sales. so in a year 13% is fantasy 65.1% is marines and 13.1% is paints, leaving Eldar, Deamons, Necorns, Tau, and everything else to make up 8.8% of annual sales.

            if that’s the case Fantasy is fine, cut all of the none space marines from 40k instead. I have heard numbers relayed via staff before and they are always suspect, doubly so as there is never any documented evidence to support it.

          • Gridloc

            Ouch, play tested for over a year? for 4 pages? I thought spending millions on a plain website was bad.

          • Me

            While the BRB is four pages, the full rules are actually much larger. By that I mean that you need to include the war scrolls. If they really did thorough playtesting for over a year (and not like one game every six months for a total of two games), then that makes me a better outlook on them (GW).

          • Cryric

            I can very easily see a year to playtest…
            There has to be a set of rules for each of the existing WHF models that are out.
            So each one would be played and tweaked…played again.

          • Gridloc

            We are assuming they did, their playtest group is small and very different gamers than many of their current customers. Also putting out rules for each unit could just be very much a copy paste from existing books (they are known for their ctrl-c/ctrl-v skills)

          • Muninwing

            “AOS has been play-tested at GW for over a year…so they have been refining and going over all the items for a bit of time…”

            to think, had they just done that with 8th fantasy and the armybooks that came out of the latter of 7th on through much of 8th, perhaps that might have upped their sales numbers….

          • My number comes from a redshirt who was told it during last weekend’s company meeting in Minnesota. I trust the source, but for reasons which should be obvious I won’t name him.

          • Mahauk

            As a Fantasy, 40K and active LOTR player, I don’t see your point.

            Why? Because I’m a LOTR player. This is LOTR simplified adapted for WHF and new AoS models. And I will love it. But… for years LOTR players, we, have to put up with a lot of criticism over the system.

            It was awful, a joke, horrible, meshed, etc. etc. And it was surely drowning GW. It must be abandoned and that effort put in WHF and mostly on 40k.

            And now, by magic beyond my comprehension, it is the best system. A breath of fresh air in an already dead system as Fantasy. A promising gaming system. The very best of the best. Worse, this statements came from lot of people that already stated that the VERY SAME SYSTEM was the fault of LOTR. Not the miniatures, nor the concepts of Tolkien fantasy. The gaming system.

            I’m sure I will like the new game. I will miss Fantasy and maybe play Oldhammer-Kings of War or Warthrone. But if this system was so criticized in the past in its extended version in the LOTR I doubt it will attract much more than Fantasy was doing. Unless it will need a lot of effort. Coincidentally, what Fantasy needed and the reason that End of Times was a succes.

          • Gridloc

            Saying accounts to 15% of sales, but how much does it cost them? if it cost them even then yes drop it. If they were making profit but not as much as they WANT to make, then you are destroying trust at the cost of shareholders.

          • I assume if they weren’t losing money on Fantasy, they wouldn’t be replacing it.

          • John Bower

            And… Chess hasn’t had a rules update in close to 3000 years. So a good game shouldn’t need a rules update… ever.

          • That’s… so irrelevant I’m not even sure how to respond to it. This isn’t about chess, and it isn’t about “should”. It isn’t even about “good game” or not. It’s about what IS happening, and WHY.

          • John Bower

            You said the game needed updating; my point was, why does a game need to be updated? At all? If the rules are there and good, then why does a game need an update? I’m sure there are historic wargames (since that’s really where it started) that have never been updated. And are as popular now as ever (sure in our idea of ‘popular’ not very, but then compared the Xbox nor is our hobby popular).

          • Fantasy needed to be updated because it wasn’t doing what it was supposed to: making money for the company producing it. It was a failed product. Failed products don’t continue to get made.

          • A Legalist

            GW is going fail Epicly. They have nothing to offer the Warmachine, X-wing crowd. Gw has typically done a great job of pissing off players and never listen to their fan base. Its a chronic problem with most modern game companies. I think forgot that this at best a niche business. You need support of gamer community to survive. GW thinks they don’t need the players. They are in for terrible surprise.

          • Nothing to offer?

            So I guess having better models than anyone else in the industry is “nothing”… and having actual, dedicated brick-and-mortar stores that carry complete product lines and guarantee a place to play is “nothing” too, then.

          • A Legalist

            Models that super expensive, Lousy customer service, and most GW stores I’ve been to had no space to game. It all for display.

          • Models are comparably priced with the rest of the industry.

            Customer service I’ve received over the many years I’ve been in the hobby has been consistently excellent, both in-person at hobby centers and on the phone. If you’ve had bad experiences, I’m sorry for that, but your opinion is not shared by the majority of people I’ve talked to.

            I might also add, that if you had a bad experience in a store, it might have been because of YOUR attitude. The redshirts aren’t paid to put up with your crap, and if you talk about their company to their faces the way you talk about it here, I don’t blame them for wanting to get rid of you.

            My store has five tables. I know that’s on the big side by today’s standards, but even the smallest store I’ve ever been in had two. And that’s STILL two better than anyone else in the industry, because nobody else in the industry has stores at all.

          • A Legalist

            Because GW started the price hike and the rest of industry followed.

            As for customer serviceI am not even talking about the store people. They are general good people. There are some bad apples, but they are good. I am talking about the GW dealings with its fan base and stores.

            As for your stores. Congrats that great. But the GW stores in my region I either no tables or one. Of course I never consider making a GW store my prime hangout. I like other games than GW ones. As for that better than anyone in industry for providing a place to play. I’ll grant you that, cause no one else does it. But that has to do with no one really wanting to challenge them in that department. Trust me I just don’t have issues with GW alone. Most gamer companies these day are terrible with dealing with their fan base. It seems they got the attitude. “We produce something weather it is bad or not. You play it if you want or go. We don’t care.” Kind of a bad attitude for business that desperately relies on its fan base. Cause lets be honest were a niche group.

          • You seem to have a very skewed view of the industry in general. The TTG industry consistently has the BEST customer service and most openness with its customers of any I’m familiar with, with GW being the one notable exception, and even then the problem is their lack of communication rather than any real poor treatment of their customers. In what other industry can you ask a question about a product, and get an answer straight from the person who actually created it? I’ve had that interaction with four different game companies in the last five years (Privateer, Wyrd, Corvus Belli and Wizards of the Coast), and never from any other company in any other industry I can think of.

          • A Legalist

            I have dealt with Catalyst game labs, Raging Heroes and GW. And yes communication is at heart the problem. Randall over at Catalysis never gives a straight answer and get but hurt when you ask. Raging Heroes has issues answer questions in a timely manner (like months) and GW like to surprise everyone with no input from the fans.

            As for industry that you get a straight answer. Well here at the Industrial Manufacturing industry we seem to get straight answers. But I guess when you deal with hundreds of millions of dollars you get answers.

        • Dan

          Well said mate.

        • vonevilstein

          Kids. I.e. the same way you and I got into in the first place.

          • Kids who will find out about it how exactly? By going into a rarely-open store on accident?

          • vonevilstein

            There was only 2 GW stores in the UK, no internet, 3 TV channels, no mobiles, no franchise computer games and *most importantly* no Dad’s that played it when I first started. So you can see how I might find it thoroughly ridiculous when you young pups say no one will know about it. Puuuurrlease…;)

        • Well I can’t imagine store recruitment’s what it once was. Couple of months back I needed a pot of paint. It’s GW or Vallejo on the internet here. I visited 6 times in 2 weeks, and between staff holiday, shorthours and Monday closures I had to go 6 times before I found it open.

          Even when they’re there it’s impossible to run events, intros and man the till alone.

        • AircoolUK

          I haven’t played fantasy for decades. At least not regularly (one or two games a year at the very, very most).

          Warhammer is cumbersome and antiquated, as is 40K.

          So, I’m technically not a fantasy player, and I’ve given up on 40K for the same reasons. However, AoS has me interested enough to pre-order from my FLGS.

          • benn grimm

            Well I’m sure the gw shareholders will sleep sounder knowing the future of the company rests in the hands of people like you. And if you haven’t played in decades, how would you know it was antiquated? Maybe it was decades ago, nowadays its doing just fine. There were a few issues in 8th that could have been addressed certainly, but overall its a solid ruleset.

        • Sean

          This is a great question. The assumption is that there is a group of people out there who *would* invest in WHFB if it was more accessible (price-wise, rules-wise, etc.). I tend to agree with you, Benn. My guess is that they are recognizing that Warmachine, Malifaux, Kings of War, and similar games filled a gap that existed in the GW products for skirmish games. Interestingly, this gap used to be filled by GW games like Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, and Bloodbowl, but the opportunity for other companies to enter into the market was recreated when GW dropped their Specialist Games lines.

          Whatever their reasoning, my gut tells me that GW will make AoS easy to access initially, but difficult to stick with. The issue for GW has always been continuous sales of models. In order for them to persist, they need to keep developing new products to sell. (Again, this is why the Specialist Games were dropped–no ongoing sales.) In my view, they should have redesigned and re-released Mordheim to include models and units that could be included in a larger WHFB game. I would have been drawn to a redesigned Mordheim in an instant and may have been drawn to WHFB later as a result. I do not feel drawn to AoS at all.

        • If they think they are going to be taking gamers away from other skirmish games they are insane. Often people play skirmish games because you can take the time to have a very strategic and tactical game. This is neither of those things. It’s almost like a poor version of a board game that you have to make up half the rules with your opponent for. I really don’t understand the design niche they are aiming for..

          • benn grimm

            Agreed 100 per cent, the whole USP of skirmish level games is they allow you to go deeper into the action than a full army size game should have time for, this is the opposite of that. I think what they’re aiming for is to get people to ‘buy moar models now!’ , it’s almost as if they’re getting a little desperate.

          • Muninwing

            many people went to skirmish games to find an alternative to WHF. but the two are fundamentally different animals.

            personally, if AoS is just skirmish, and if the ranked up aspect is gone, then i’ll see if i can sell stuff on ebay before the market is glutted. i just have no interest…

    • Erik Setzer

      Since the warscrolls we’ve seen so far have no limit on the unit size, I’d assume you can use large units, they’ll just play the same as smaller units, which means it might be a bit harder to get everyone into assault.

      Having played Orks in 40K for a long time, I’m kind of used to that…

      • deris87

        That’s the issue, even a 5×3 block of spears can’t get everyone into melee now since it requires piling in. There really is no mechanic for playing a ranked infantry game here.

        • Erik Setzer

          Well, with spears they’ll probably add some kind of mechanic. LOTR/Hobbit let models with spears attack if in base-to-base with a model who was in base-to-base with an enemy model. In this game, they might have longer range.

          Still no ranking system, yeah. I’ll have to stick with WFB8 or try KoW for that.

    • Godlir

      Then they should have bought more. WFB represents 12% of the total revenue for GW. It doesn’t take an accountant to figure out that that’s not sustainable.

      • Frank Krifka

        actually it was 15% but whatever

        • Guillaume Berger

          Could you confirm this information with facts? I cannot seem to find this anywhere.

          • Frank Krifka

            Yes, the fact is it was 15%. If your asking for *sources* then that’s different.

          • wibbling

            Go to the investors section of the website. Download the company statement.

  • Tynskel

    Reminds me of the transition from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition for 40k.

    • Ardboy

      My thoughts exactly. That was a significant reworking of what 40k was. GW stripped the game down to a skeleton of its former self in order to simplify it for mass market. Then after each new edition the rules kept creeping back to the point where now it has almost come full circle. Maybe that’s the long term fate for Fantasy… tear it down to slowly rebuild.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        except that they kept the setting and IP they had built up through RT and 2nd.

        • benn grimm

          Exactly, they used 3rd to further build and solidify on what was successful, and cut the fat, this just threw the whole cow in meat grinder.

        • Ben_S

          Although they did kill Squats and introduce Dark Eldar.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            yes, but it was still 95% the same setting.

  • Haemonculus

    Perhaps GW is holding off releasing 9th edition or large rule book to see if Age of Sigmar does well. Like testing the waters. Anyway I’m rather worried.

    • hamilton geyser

      just give it up, man!

      • jim

        We just want to believe this isn’t the full thing. I was hoping for something like AoS + something similar to the normal fantasy. That would of been ace.

    • wibbling

      Why are you worried? What on earth about?

      • deris87

        Don’t be dense. Worried that the style of game he enjoys and prefers to play won’t be officially supported and will drop off entirely.

  • hamilton geyser

    In the grim darkness of the future, there are only ogors and breyherds.

    • deris87

      Breyherds I don’t mind, it’s already a term from the background, but they’re insane if they thing mangling the faction names for very slight IP protection will stop people from buying Mantic Zombies. Plus, people more generally interested in a fantasy setting might find themselves put off by the prospect of being told “It’s not a skeleton! It’s a Deathrattler ™!

  • OleTimer56

    Sounds like the end of the road for Warhammer Fantasy after all 🙁

    • A Legalist

      Ya I agree going to have to make my fantasy armies into some other historical army.

  • ImAlpharius

    I may have to just take the dive into Napoleonics become a formation/movement grognard.

    • PTFO Inspector

      Yeah I think I’m heading over to Warlord games, make a Byzantine army. I’m sad though, Fantasy was at GW’s core and seeing all this unfold really shows how much the company has changed.

      • Ira Clements

        Hail Caesar has all the massed battles fun and unit size is just a matter of taste its only frontage widths that matter so if your unit has 10 minis or 40 it doesnt make a difference and the command structure is pretty interesting also.

        • ImAlpharius

          I’ll have to check that out, thanks!

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        a Byzantine army, that sounds complicated.

        • kobalt60

          this is a fantastically underrated comment

          165/10

        • PTFO Inspector

          Badum tish.

    • Haemonculus

      I’m considering Napoleonics, too!

    • riburn3

      I LOVE fantasy but if the game was bleeding money it makes sense. Plus fantasy is a little too similar mechanically to 40k so it is competing with its own product line. Make the game something completely different, throw in some free rules, don’t invalidate previous players model purchases, continue to have the best model range in the biz, and pray it works. TBH, their roll out has caught most of us by surprise and I know just from my group, theres several 40k only players that likely will take the dive in AoS.

      • Erik Setzer

        “Plus fantasy is a little too similar mechanically to 40k so it is competing with its own product line.”

        Except this is actually closer in play style and even some mechanics to 40K than WFB was, so… yeah.

        • riburn3

          How so? The to hit and to wound mechanics are scroll based and no longer stat based and don’t compare model vs model like both fantasy and 40k have done for decades. The special rules are much more simplified as well and located on each scroll versus a cluster F rulebook that contradicts itself and is broken when army books come out. It is a skirmish game, but bases don’t matter, where distance to physical model does for specific attacks. We also don’t even know how the specific scenarios will play out.

          It’s a skirmish game yes, but based on whats been leaked, its nowhere near as obnoxiously complex as 40k.

          • benn grimm

            Nope, its so simple, its hardly worth playing…

          • jim

            Looks to be the case. But lets wait and see on the 4th.

          • Michael Bradbury

            Why wouldn’t it be worth playing? Some of best games ever are even simpler than this.

      • Gridloc

        How does that help the company? If Johnny spends X dollars a month on his 40k, he isn’t going to spend 2X on games now because he also plays fantasy… he will spend x/2 on 40k and x/2 on fantasy. So you don’t increase profits? They need new players from other games, and frankly these rules are not amazing compared to companies that balance their games.

        • riburn3

          You’re right about needing new players but your assumption is wrong. To assume everyone has a set monthly allowance to spend on 40k and by purchasing AoS their money is divided is flawed. Many hobbyists already split their income amongst multiple game systems. Likewise, many players can go a significant amount of time without even making a purchase in the system. I know personally I go months without making significant purchases in any hobby, then will go on a flurry when I see something new or start up something that I like.

          The increase market share of AoS is going to need to come from solo 40k players jumping into the new system as well as brand new players both from other systems but also new to war gaming all together.

          • Gridloc

            I was simply pointing out, that targeting existing 40k players probably isn’t their main target. They already have a very generous release schedule for 40k.

          • riburn3

            I thinks it’s targeting everyone. Newbs by the easy mechanics. Vets disgruntled and happy for the ability to keep their old models. 40k players to try a new system. OR 40k only players that just want the new models to put in their 40k armies. The chaos models will especially make for amazing berserkers, lords, or cultists.

    • georgelabour

      Could try fields of glory and its napoleonic version.

      It’ll either scratch your rank and file itch or send you screaming to AOS and thanking it be for being so much simpler to enjoy. 😛

    • Gundric

      Ive not played 40k or fantasy for years, in the grand scale of all wargames they are just not GOOD games. I love the fluff, but that could only keep my distaste for the rules at bay for so long.
      Currently playing a Naps set called Blucher, by a fellow called Sam Mustafa. Great rules, including all the army lists for 1805+ and campaign rules, all for the cost of a current hb codex.

      • ImAlpharius

        Im basically in the same boat. I found that I played the game more for the fluff and models then any sort of compelling gameplay. In fact, it got to the point where my least favorite part of the hobby was actually playing it.
        I’ll look into your suggestions.

  • Commissar Molotov

    This deserves a “Downfall” meme where we find out that Steiner ain’t coming to save us…

  • riburn3

    I love Fantasy over 40K, but I’m willing to give it a shot and look forward to a system that hopefully doesn’t take hours to play but still provides some level of tactical prowess. Free rules, scrolls for all existing units, plus the new model range has me very hopeful. I really just hope the fluff is solid and as good as the End Times was.

  • hamilton geyser

    I wonder if GW would have been better served just saying “look guys, WFB has run its course and we aren’t going to support it anymore, but here is a new game with new fluff and you can use your old minis if you want”.

    But GW loves pissing off its customers too much (and let’s face it, some of their customers deserve it).

    • Valeli

      That’s basically what they did. A lot of people seem to have just been willfully blind and chose to pretend this was a continuation.

      In fairness to GW though, not /explicitly/ killing fantasy leaves open the possibility of a future 9th edition if this goes against their expectations and completely tanks.

      • jim

        Is that such a bad thing? people including myself, were hoping this would be a side game with a main rule book coming later.

    • jim

      I agreed with you up until you said they purposly try and piss there customers off. Well that’s a kind of silly thing to say, it might come off that way but the mighty $$$ is there objective “like any business”. They are just so out of touch now and have lost allot of there main talent.

      • hamilton geyser

        that part was a joke. mostly.

  • Jay

    They can always come out with an epic set of rules next summer.

  • Algernon Bumbry

    If this is true its going to be hilarious when total warhammer comes out and they get a influx of interest from the people playing the video game only to have to tell them sorry we killed that universe how about some orruks or maybe Aelfs.

    • Frank Krifka

      if the old miniatures are still usable, theres no reason they couldn’t build a total war themed force

      • Yes, there is. Total War uses the massive ranked battles we were used to see in WHFB. Age of Sigmar made entirely away with ranked formations in favor of skirmish units.

        The player will never see ranks like they’d come to expect from Warhammer Fantasy / Total War while using the Age of Sigmar ruleset.

        • Frank Krifka

          i didn’t say it would be the best way to field an army, but there is nothing stopping you from fielding your army in ranks.

          • Apart from how the melee rules now work with piling on, or the problems with turning your blocks around, requiring that the full unit is within/on the same bit of cover to get a bonus for it… the rules certainly make fielding regiments far more troublesome than it is worth, with no benefits at all to doing it.

          • Frank Krifka

            again, look at my above comment.

    • Wizards of the Coast seems to have gotten away with it. Neverwinter is (loosely) based on D&D 4e, despite the fact that 4e had by the point Neverwinter released already been effectively discontinued.

  • chris2155

    If you didn’t want this to go away, you should have bought more models and more books…BoLs people, war seer, faeit..etc etc..you complained about the cost, now it’s gone and replaced with what many of you were calling for..a smaller more affordable game..but now that isn’t good enough either because it’s too different..you who fall into this camp, there is no pleasing you..you would complain just for the sake of it..it was a great game, unfortunately far to many of you are too poor or overburdened by other responsibilities to keep up..that wasn’t GWs fault, that is your fault.

    • Commissar Molotov

      For gawd’s sake, I’ve bought some GW functionary a decent sedan by this point. HOW MUCH MORE MUST I BEAR?

      • georgelabour

        He doesn’t have a multi story parking garage and personal attendant/mechanic to care for it yet.

      • hamilton geyser

        At a certain point, the business model just doesn’t work well. GW as a publically traded corporation needs a constant supply of new souls to power its– er I mean it needs a constant supply of new customers to buy its stuff. Old loyal customers with thousands of dollars in minis don’t really pay the rent.

        • Commissar Molotov

          Let slip the BLACK SHIPS!

        • Nameless

          this argument is pretty flawed, if you applied the same logic to 40k there would be no new ad mech (an army to appeal to people invested in the law) let alone 2, forgeworld would simply cease to function.

          certainly new customers are a good thing, as is an easier to pick up game but assuming that the old customers with large armies don’t replace old models, don’t buy the new kits, don’t see the new shiny army they have read about in the lore and buy a 3/4/18th army is just ludicrous

    • benn grimm

      What a illogical thing to say. Only a gw apologist(troll) would have there head so far up kirby so as to completely miss the fact that; Warhammer wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for us guys who went out and bought models and rules, year in, year out. It would have tanked years ago if it wasn’t so well supported by a particularly hardcore, loyal bunch of fans. If no-one was buying anything, why have there been so many new releases over the past few years? The truth is, gw knows it has a hardcore legion of nerds who will support them, whatever rubbish they put out and AOS is the unfortunate result of the arrogance that comes from taking your customers for granted, whilst at the same time pursuing a demographic that quite possibly doesn’t exist. But if they do, and AOS does really well, I wonder, in twenty years, will they be as loyal as we were?

      • Dan

        Again well said mate.

        • benn grimm

          Cheers mate.)

      • David Leimbach

        Dude really? If the box set quality is anything like GW’s recent releases, it’s going to be awesome.

        Nobody’s taking you for granted. They’re upping their game, taking a huge risk, hoping to keep existing players and draw in new players.

        • benn grimm

          I’m sure the box will be lovely, I may even purchase some of the marauder-cultists from ebay once they invariably go up in the next few weeks. The rules? From what I ‘ve seen/heard its not looking good. Anyway I’ll give it a try, who knows? It may be amazing.

    • jim

      There’s to many unemployed / students on these forums with nothing else to do but cry, that they make min wage and want to buy something every second day.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      they should have made 8th ed a thing which attracted new players rather than driving away existing players in droves.

      • Michael Gerardi

        +1 to this.

    • Gridloc

      Wow, beaten wife syndrome. Its not my husbands fault for beating me. its mine, i should have cleaned harder…

  • PinkTerror

    I hope the game is a success and the same thing happens to 40k. The switch from 2nd edition 40k to 3rd edition was a revelation. I can’t believe 40k reached a point that’s even worse than second edition, but here we are. Send the flood Emperor, wipe the slate clean. We are not worthy.

    • Even the switch from 40k 2nd to 3rd wasn’t as extreme as this, though. In that change, recognizable elements were brought across–someone who’s never played anything but “modern” editions of 40k could look at rules and unit entries from 2nd and parse them out without much trouble. The same isn’t true here: if all you know is AoS, Fantasy stats would look like complete gibberish to you.

      • Shardak

        This is more like them canning 2nd edition 40k and replacing it with the first four pages of the Gorkamorka rules.

    • benn grimm

      I hope it tanks and 40k holds on to some vestige of being a decent game. It’s funny, I never thought I’d be so grateful for the mess that is 7th. I’ll take bloated and unbalanced over bland, generic tosh with rules so basic a 10 year would get bored of them.

      • jim

        Unfortunately, it’s a thing ALLOT of people have been asking for, for quiet sometime.

      • vonevilstein

        This whole affair has brought out some pretty churlish remarks but “I hope it tanks” wins the Spurned Lover award 2015.

        • benn grimm

          That was a little hasty, I should have said I would rather it tank, than be successful and 40k go the same way. If I weren’t worried about 40k, I’d wish it every success. I do still hope it might be ok. Anyway, I’m feeling far from spurned, there’s plenty of warhammer fantasy battles to be had still.

          • vonevilstein

            Fair enough…;)

          • Rod DeMore

            What is scary is they are probably thinking of doing this to 40k…

  • xxvaderxx

    Measuring model to model instead of base to base is a non starter, but easily enough to agree upon.
    No structured blocks of any description however is non negotiable, hopefully battle scrolls address this with special rules, but no blocks no game.

    • If you mean specifically Rank & File units, those are gone, apparently for good. Movement is like 40K but with 1″ coherency, and different units have different move values.

      • jim

        So a quote “normal sized game” is 100 models. I dread this new movement phase then. It will be like everyone playing guard lol.

        • Well, maybe. The rules mention that a battle of around a hundred models per side will take “an evening”, which is about the same as a 2K 40K or 3K Fantasy game takes.

          That said, for the moment it looks like AoS will scale down better than it scales up.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      theres nothing I enjoy more than scraping my carefully painted, delicate model with the end of a tape measure.

      • DocNacho

        It’s almost as bad as folks that pick up your minis for a closer look then drop them… *shudder*

      • Michael Gerardi

        Word.

      • standardleft

        Whippy sticks

      • Davor Mackovic

        It only effects those people who NEED that EXTRA mm or 0.001″ of an inch and say “I am out of range, you can’t hit me.”

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          the truly odd thing is that it means some minis with long weapons, arms or whatever will actually have a different ability in game which will vary depending on their orientation. How does this relate to conversions etc? Are we all supposed to use the models exactly as they are like in Warmachine? Its weird.

  • Warrior_of_Sound

    brutal

  • The14th

    If all we are getting is Age of Sigmar, then what exactly is going to be released? The rumors were no more 40k until October.

    • New units, new terrain, new paint, novels, paint guides, new Realm of Battle table, etc.

      • The14th

        Was looking for something a bit more specific than EVERY possibility.

      • Ben_S

        Why a new board? More skulls?

        • Look at the deployment types images in the rules leak. That’s a different table than the two we have now.

  • Vladium NZL

    It’s a sales tatic in an attempt to pump as much sales out of it before the 9th edition rulebook comes out. It’s a classic retail ploy

    • Boondale

      Can’t really turn 4 pages into a BRB…

    • You’re free to believe whatever you’d like. You’re wrong, but that’s okay.

  • Was anyone actually expecting this to be any different?

    • crevab

      I know better but Hope isn’t logical

    • jim

      Yes as this is a first for the company lol. You make it sound like they revamp there game system every 5 years or so >_>.

  • darthken

    ive said it before and ill say it again Mantic Games Kings of War Version 2 due in a couple of weeks. No one plays GW fantasy anymore in my area, and we encourage any newcomer’s to give GW a miss and go Mantic. Playing KoW has also bought back a lot of older GW disgruntled player’s as well.

    • Jason McFarland

      I used to enjoy Mantic, but they’re presin is so bad to work with, they’re very ADHD on what they develop because they have 5 Kickstarters in the air at all times, I have three or four of their games kicking around. KoW is probably the only one I haven’t tried, something about it just bugs me. But I do hope that disenfranchised WHFB players find a good home there.

      • jim

        That’s only good, if you have a community large enough to support such a change like this ie factoring in players that wont pick up a new system or stick with an old one ie 8th.

        Looks like my days of fantasy are over :(.

      • They’ve said they’re stopping the does of new games this year and concentrate on what they already have. Plastic resin is being phased out, though we’ll be stuck with it for a while. More styrene and metal kits with some PVC here and there. The PVC is as hard to clean as plastic resin, but there’s usually a lot less to do.

        Having said that it’s a matter of technique. Those rotary nail file devices does. The mold lines down to fuzz and a brass brush removes the fuzz. Got my last Deadzone stuff cleaned faster than regular plastic and a knife with that technique.

    • Agent OfBolas
  • I wish end times had ended with 2 divergent timelines. AoS and WHFB. Have AoS replace LotR as a “hook” to the hobby kind of game

    • Emdee

      That is what I thought it would be. But the more I see the less likely that seems to be. I am lucky that I had pretty much stopped playing at 7th edition and went to 40k full swing. I don’t mind starting fantasy again with a fresh set….well AoS. Lol.

    • From an economics standpoint, that makes no sense. Fantasy isn’t profitable. Hasn’t been for years. There’ no point to keeping around product nobody is buying.

      • Fantasy was profitable. It just wasn’t making amazing money. They still generated profits, just not the margin they wanted. But I understand your point. Just wishful thinking.
        And maybe AoS would have been enough of a hook to make WHFB “profitable” again…

        • Fantasy accounted for about 15% of GW’s total sales volume worldwide over the last several years. End Times didn’t change that. Considering Fantasy makes up about 40% of the available range, I rather doubt they were actually making any money on it.

          • Just because it is 40% of their available product line, it doesn’t mean it was 40% of the inventory. Plus they still sell the product far beyond the cost of materials, and the initial design is already a long gone sunk cost at this point (and sine they spend stupid money on their website AND were willing to develop an ENTIRELY NEW PRODUCT LINE, obviously this fixed cost is not something they worry about).
            Really the issue of cost comes mostly with warehousing. They likely had too much stock on hand, cutting into their profit margins as well, but proper production control, like a Just in time approach, would mitigate that to near negligible costs.

          • Andreas Noche

            Translation: Even though GW was owned by a bank, i doubt that there was anybody adept with financial thinking hired at anypoint of gw´s history. Clearly, there can´t be any other factor, which would make my theory obsolete. I know this, because i have seen all the data that´s usually kept secret by every company. Believe my rant.

          • Rich_B

            GW moved to a just in time manufacturing model a long time ago.

        • Michael Gerardi

          GW reduced WFB’s profitability because of its own deliberate and foolish decisions over several editions. Then, rather than reversing those foolish decisions, it just killed the game.

          • Aezeal

            The 8th edition rules where the best yet IMHO and apperantly it still wasn’t enough.
            I’m not sure AoS will be to my liking untill I try but I can see that fantasy as it was even though I liked it wasn’t really viable to them.

            In my shop (not a GW shop, just a game shop) GW has been loosing shelfspace yearly… it was nearly half the shop 15 years ago.. now it’s only 1 rack with all boxes sideways to take up less space (this is recent, before you could stil see the front of boxes).

          • Davor Mackovic

            Could that be because GW makes shops to buy their products to jump through hopes and do what GW tells them to do? It’s just not worth if for them so they buy less now, not worth the hassles that GW puts them through.

          • standardleft

            I’ve not been into fantasy for very long. Can you break down the major things they’ve done?

          • Shardak

            8th had a couple of issues – in smaller games magic was much too powerful and much too save or die – often deciding battles very early in the game on lucky rolls.

            The non-magic game was dominated by very large blocks of basic infantry at a time when Games Workshop halved the number of models in the boxes of most of the basic infantry troops. This was fed into by increasing the assumed game size to ~2,400 points – which served to further increase cost of entry.

            Some armies (Bretonnians, Wood Elves, Beastmen) went for years and years without substantial releases – I think Bretonnians last army book was in about 2005 back in 6th Edition while others (Dwarves) had fairly good army books replaced by ones which were not terribly well received.

            In 7th Edition a couple of armies (Demons, Dark Elves and Vampire Counts, High Elves who used Teclis) were simply much much more powerful than others – Demons in particular did a lot of damage to the game.

          • archied

            9th wouldve been a fairly easy evolutionary fix IMO.

            slow down the assaults (movement +2d6 sped the game up far too much for my liking)

            tone down all the magic, make it more of a tool, less of an a-bomb-style crutch.

            add more ways to cancel steadfast

            make tomb kings not rubbish

            (that last one may or may not just be personal bias seeping in…)

          • Shardak

            Yeah. 8th had problems but they were in no way insurmountable problems and it wouldn’t be a huge leap to fix them.

            It could really have done with the recommended game size for “competitive” play being brought back down to 1,500-1,800 points with larger games supported more optionally. Not just to lower cost of entry but also to reduce the game-time down to a reasonable length and reduce the number of night goblins I needed to paint.

          • oliver izzard

            where to start …

          • Michael Gerardi

            Some of the problems I (and others) have with 8th are its emphasis on large blocks of troops, which made it expensive to get into, its overly generic equipment revision which removed a lot of distinctiveness from armies, and its magic system. My WFB army was Tomb Kings, and 8th drove me away when it destroyed Tomb King incantations (forcing the lore system in its place), nerfing fear, and other problems.

      • Aezeal

        True, especially when the new product will take even more people away from it.

        • standardleft

          I guess we can only wonder how much the people who leave were spending?

          Do you think its really that much if they have a large collection?

  • wibbling

    ‘Forced to’. Let’s be clear. No one – *no one* forces you to buy anything. You choose to. There is no ‘competitive’. It’s a game involving dice. It is not ‘competitive’. it’s not a sport. It’s toy soldiers. Anyone who thinks otherwise has real problems.

    Again, for those at the back: you are not ‘forced’ to do anything. To say so is absurd.

    • vonevilstein

      Yeah that made me laugh as well. Well I laugh about it now but only after bricking up my windows and barricading myself in so GW couldn’t get to my wallet….

    • Michael Gerardi

      Yes, let’s be clear: no one FORCES us to buy anything, in the sense that GW is not literally holding a gun to our heads and shouting, “THOU SHALT BUY!”

      But GW doesn’t need a gun. Every time GW changes editions–let alone scraps an entire game and replaces it with an unrecognizable substitute like AoS–it makes it EFFECTIVELY very difficult, if not impossible, for players to play the games they invested in. GW reduces, if not eliminates, player choice, and does so intentionally. Players are left with two, and only two, options: buy into the new system and keep on being able to play pick-up games at the FLGS, or stick with what they have already invested in, lose that ability, and be limited to one’s own small circle of friends, in which case the utility of one’s investment is sharply reduced.
      Market power and fanboy conditioning work every bit as well as a gun to the head.
      You know this very well, so you can stop insulting our intelligence by denying it and belittling those of us who refuse to be manipulated, by blathering about “toy soldiers”. To do so is what is TRULY absurd.

      • vonevilstein

        “so you can stop insulting our intelligence by denying it and belittling those of us who refuse to be manipulated”

        Firstly intelligence is required in the first place in order to have it insulted.

        Secondly the statement is merely trying to educate those in the throes of a teenage hissy fit to help give some perspective – as it’s usually perspective that is the first casualty of a knee-jerk reaction.

        However, much like the religious far-right, some people just don’t want to listen to reason when they’re angry.

        • Michael Gerardi

          Nice to know you too, with your 13 posts. Knight certainly was on to something.
          And much like the Christophobic far-left, some people think they define what constitutes “reason”.

          • vonevilstein

            “Reason” is defined by nature. Reason builds cities, reason finds cures to diseases, reason sends probes to distant cosmic bodies. But the individual denies reason when they don’t like it’s results.

            The religious far right don’t seem to be able to distinguish between those who use reason and reason itself, they think one is “invented” by the other. But considering they have no requirement for reason this is not surprising.

          • Ben

            And the far left believes that everyone should be in lock step with their way of living and thinking. and if people resist, they will use the power of government to force otherwise. People in glass houses shouldn’t cast stones.
            Left/Right, both want control of the people; that’s why I’m a libertarian.

        • Ben

          While I agree with most of your statement regarding buying decision, you lost me on the political commentary. Much like people on the socialist (communist) far left, you feel that everyone should think they way you do, even if you need to use the central government by force….

          In other words, leave your bs political commentary away from a website about toy soldiers…

          • vonevilstein

            Eh? Politics Religion.

          • Ben

            If for example if I made a comment on how hypocritical, lazy, hippie progressive liberals are and how they force their beliefs on other people via the strong arm of government..). While accurate from my perspective, it shoudl have no place on a website about toy soldiers.
            My issue with the OP was that he used “religious right”, in other words religious conservatives, as being idiotic and not knowing facts. BOTH the left and the right have their “cults” of personality, and frankly the left is the greater fool because put their faith in a “benevolent” big government…
            If for example if I made a comment on how hypocritical, lazy, hippie progressive liberals are and how they force their beliefs on other people via the strong arm of government..). While accurate from my perspective, it shoudl have no place on a website about toy soldiers.

        • Daniel R Weber

          And the extremist progressive left…no extremes like to listen to reason…let’s be honest with our observations.

  • Agent OfBolas

    My wallet is saying “bye bye GW”

  • ted1138

    The more I hear about about Age of Sigmar, the more i think ‘aren’t these the things people on BoLs have been saying GW should do for years?’.

    • Michael Gerardi

      I don’t recall anyone saying, “Hey GW, we think you should kill off WHF and replace it with Kiddie-World.” Maybe you’ve been reading different posts than I have.

      • hamilton geyser

        ridiculous comment is ridiculous.

        • Michael Gerardi

          Thank you for that profound and salient comment. Do you have any more to contribute, or have you filled your fanboy quota for today?

          • hamilton geyser

            I’m good for today, little guy.

      • ted1138

        Then where did you get the quote?

        • Michael Gerardi

          It’s not a literal quote. Just making the point that, whatever “these people on BoLS” have been calling for, AoS isn’t it.

    • Daniel R Weber

      I don’t know of anyone who said they should kill off their ranked combat game in favor of a simplistic skirmish style game. Bring things up to speed, yes. Kill the ‘heart’ of the WH game structure…not so much.

  • Razer Free

    GW executives faces when they get to charge you 40$ for updated war scrolls of your army every 1-2 years, and customers faces when they realise this after buying at least 300$ worth of models from GW.

    • hamilton geyser

      why would anyone pay for a war scroll?

      • EWOKM8?

        I thought the same about dataslates when they first appeared.

    • David Leimbach

      So far, claims are made that warscrolls and rules are free downloads (or come in the box with models).

      • Stephen Taylor

        And that the warscroll index will be a living document. Ie constantly updated

      • Razer Free

        Did you not read the last part of the article? The war scrolls for the old models are indeed free, but GW never said anything about future war scrolls or batallions being free aswell. People just assume since they are being so “nice” and allowing people to use their old models (even if not the same way as the new ones), GW is just going to start giving rules away for free forever. Can you imagine how pissed 40K players would be for having to keep buying expensive codex books?

        The only reason they are giving away those war scrolls anyway is because they are forced to. If people were unable to use their already existing 2000+ point armies in the new game system, it would mean the end of customer trust for GW as a company.

        • hamilton geyser

          they are single pieces of paper with rules on them. How are they gonna charge for that? I know Warhammer players aren’t the most fiscally responsible people on Earth, but I think you are being hysterical.

          • Razer Free

            They have two options: Include them in boxes and increasing the box price by about 2-3$, or sell them separate the same way they now sell transfer sheets.

          • Me

            Dude, they tried to sell a bunch of wallpapers at 7.50$ last Christmas…
            Yes… Wallpapers.

        • David Leimbach

          Warscrolls are supposed to be included in the box with new releases + living document. They’ll be available online.

          I already have all of the 40k codex books for free online. I also buy the codexes for armies I play because I want a hard copy that isn’t a bunch of pages stapled together. If GW realized that this is how many players play now, it makes perfect sense for them to do this.

  • DocNacho

    The thing that scares me the most is that if AoS takes off, the higher ups at GW will do the same to 40k…

    • Rich_B

      Very much so, especially if it cannibalises sales from 40k…

  • Brian Tallisker

    Im so excited for this, actually! :DD
    I have enjoyed my Skaven for as long as i have had them, and im looking forward to testing their new rules!
    I can also now bring Tanquol in games below certain points costs, im looking forward to trying to make a proper skryre list with tons of engineers!

    I wonder if the Lektrik Coven is still gonna be a thing…

  • Havik110

    once again, good idea in theory until you get to the place of sale…Does GW want a completely new player base or do they want the 40k players who already are in their GW stores to play…

    How do they expect a huge new rush of players when you still need to go to a specialty store to buy the game. then we need to think of the players themselves. WarmaHordes players, are not going to play. Warmahordes is much more advanced than this game based on what i am reading. That and many people that I know that play warmahordes do so after leaving 40k do to GWs pricing/lack of balanced codices…People that play infinity are the ame, they left 40k, so why are they going to come back for this game?

    if they want the fabled NEW PLAYERS they need to put the game in a shop where these new players frequent…they need the game in a big box store…it needs to be in walmart, or target or Toys r us…GW just pissed off its biggest fantasy supporters (the fantasy players) in hopes that the 40k players pick up the slack…

    • Ben

      It’s such a niche industry,that I’m not sure it would do well in a big box store. You also need a gaming table as well. Not to mention, selling it in Walmart would infuriate your independent retail customers even more than you already have….

  • Dan Di Cicco

    “I wish GW operated more like PP or Corvus Belli” GW starts acting more like PP & Corvus Belli “I don’t like it, its a cash grab”

    Proof you can never please people on the internet 😛

    • Razer Free

      I love them for finally changing more in that direction, but it sounds almost too good to be true after decades of doing things “the GW way”… I’ll keep my eyes twice as open as before.

    • Havik110

      PP has a more complicated game…how is this game anything like PP? the cards over books? just because you put stuff on cards doesnt make it like PP…

      always hitting on a static # is definitely not PP and they managed to make 40k look dynamic in its combat….

      • It has similarities. The movement, the hero-centric nature of the game, and the abilities / combos you pop from each unit make it like warmahordes.

      • Dan Di Cicco

        Where did I say this game was Like a PP game?

    • Shardak

      It helps if the rules aren’t also crap.

    • Gridloc

      What do you mean by operate, you seem to give a bland over view? If you mean reach out to the customers and tell them about products and host events, not sell ‘limited editions’. Then your second statement is still incorrect. If you mean give away rules for free, not one person here is complaining they are getting free rules… not one… they are complaining those rules are written on a cocktail napkin after a drunk night of being yelled at by shareholders that they aren’t milking customers for all they are worth.

  • Tim Whitehead

    I’m just wondering how long the current WHFB “regiment” boxed sets will be on the shelves. Will they stay on the shelf but now include just round bases (or both square and round?) or will they are be phased out in favour of regiments more in tune/style with the Stormcast Eternal’s we’ve seen recently?

  • oliver izzard

    15 % of sales for fantasy is actually not a bad number …

    If anyone here works for a retail can tell us what’s the percentage of sci-fi vs fantasy in other games
    And the percentage of modern (starting with WW1 or 2 vs historicals?)

    I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 85% vs 15%

    Even if fantasy was perfect they wouldn’t sell half as much as 40k because people like guns
    To increase sales in fantasy they need to diversify:
    Ancient fantasy + Medieval fantasy + Renaissance fantasy + steampunk fantasy = more sales

    Sci-Fi doesnt have as many niches because more or less all of it can fit in the same Universe

  • PsychosisPC

    “GW is reportedly shifting to selling warscrolls (smaller and more focused army factions) to avoid selling army books/factions” Singled Sided, black & white printing, one 4″x4″ square, with the consistency of toilet paper, $50.

  • Gridloc

    I’m sad for the huge change. Will i try the new game, of course, free rules and have tons of models. So currently i’m looking at zero investment, so why wouldn’t I? It might be really fun, but much like 40k, you are asking me to do the work to set up the game instead of just show and have play. Now with social media and texting its much easier with friends, which makes for a great beer and pretzel game.

    Pick up games becomes difficult, since you have two view points of “fair”. Points use was the deciding factor (and is for nearly every other game) to ensure I have the same chance as my opponent. Because as much as I love narrative games, pickup games are very much not narrative but a contest of my army/strat vs your army/strat. Will there be pickup games, sure; will they be arguments, GW games always do. But with little balance, it is going to take the community to keep the game “fun”. This i can see like with 40k can spiral out of control very fast.

    I know my lower spending on Fantasy helped drive them to this new decision. However having 3 full armies, its hard to justify spending tons, specially when other games out there are fun as well. I get they canceled the game, and its their right as the creator and owner, but as a loyal customer, its hard to not feel jaded at their lack info of what was to come. They could have transitioned the fanbase to let us know. We would yell and scream like we are, but by time game came out would be more willing to try.

    Right now you have pissed off players bad mouthing this new game. You have GW fanboys who are praising and defending a game they haven’t even played. The forums have become even more poisonous and more a breeding ground for contempt. I know many of the players at the LGS are on the fence about the game, and personally I can’t suggest getting into the game because 1) I know nothing about it 2) Dont’ know what is to come or the direction it is going to take 3) trust in GW on if the game will truly stick around can’t be determined by past actions 4) new look isn’t fantasy.

  • deuce1984

    “ET was a diversion”…? that is messed up

    • Shardak

      A diversion that it was possible to have spent enough money to buy a second hand car on.

    • Daniel R Weber

      IMO, ET was a bookend on an era, now that we see where things go. ET wrapped up Warhammer, never told us things would be going further, just our belief it would.

  • Talos2

    End times was never going to increase fantasy sales, by its very nature it had most fantasy players I know being very cautious about buying anything new until we knew where it was going. Fantasy isn’t clunky like some would have you believe, I know someone that just writes it off as two opposing blocks of troops that walk straight at each other and fight in that order, proper players know that’s just not true, but it’s very hard to convince people of that fact. Chaos and dwarf armies can be a bit like that, but there’s a lot of variety and style that people seem to miss. It has failings, all games do, but It’s a shame it’s had to come to this.

    • Shardak

      Yeah – beyond a few people like me picking up the high elf army I’ve wanted since I was 12 while the models still existed – End Times seems to have mainly had fantasy players going “seriously – don’t get into this, it looks like it might not exist in a few months”.

      They weren’t wrong either.

  • Sean

    I’m not entirely in agreement. I think they could have redesigned WHFB to use round bases, war scrolls with the same stat lines, smaller armies (open up the option to play the game at the skirmish level), and free rules available for download online. Instead we’re given new models, factions, and rules that don’t resemble anything in the setting previously (knights with wings?).

    The game reminds me strongly of Warmachine, which has stronger rules, in my opinion.

    While I was always drawn to WHFB, I’ve always been a 40K fan first. The price point for either game was high enough to force me to decide between the two. In that regard, the two products effectively compete(d) against one another for me. Now, I feel no pull at all to invest in WHFB.

    There is still some time. Maybe my view will change as I learn more.

  • frankelee

    The store owners were already in the dark about the battalion rules and any further balancing mechanics. They may not make a WFB 9th, but the phone bank employees wouldn’t know.

  • MightyOrang

    Why would I pay that kind of money to get into that game when there are so many other options that do the same thing that are already known proven quantity? They even destroyed their own fluff — so that appeal is gone too.

    What is so special about these games that I should put this kind of money down?

    I just don’t see it. I think your money is better spent on Horace heresy or drop zone or X-Wing…

  • Jared McWilliams

    The rules seem to be made to promote low cost entry to get people into the product. Models are very nice, and the rules being free removes a very large initial cost to enter the game. Normally people drop either $60 for a rulebook $50 for codex (+$35 for supplement if its a non decurion book) and possible extra cash on WD dataslates / campaign books that have dataslates. In otherworse, you are looking at 120-150+tax just to get the rules to play for your single faction. In 40k terms that’s usually 500-1000pts worth of models.

    For the cost of getting just the rules for their flagship product (40k) you can probably get a decent sized army for AoS since the rules are all free. When I say decent sized, I mean you a full army. It appears its more centered around hero hammer with very little spank units, whereas FB had a large amount of spank units you had to purchase. This was “realistic” compared to medieval warfare, but cost a lot of money to buy large blocks of units.

    Yes it will be very different from the fantasy people know, as there seems to be no rank and file system.

    It looks like a game that is designed for fast play, and give the limited stats and simple rules will most likely end up being more tactically relavent for competitive play than FB and even 40k.

    for people wondering where players will come for this, I am guessing people who want a competitive game with a simpler rules set than 100 pages + codex pages, and it will attract 40k players who miss assault as it is like they took assault and made it a separate game “AoS”.

  • Stan

    I still fail to understand why GW destroyed the entire setting and model base just to push this.
    GW attitude towards WFB (and Specialist Games) really has slowed down my involvement in all matters GW because they now have established a track record of shafting their customer base.
    GW really isn’t worth the investment of time and money.

    GW could have simply brought out and emphasized a skirmish game with more dynamically sculpted, but mutually useful miniatures, and kept WFB on line as the “Apocalypse” and/or Horus of AoS.

    This whole scorched earth policy seems rash to say the least and the name changes are ridiculous.

    • Daniel R Weber

      Name changes are for IP purposes. I think they flushed 30 years of setting and game because in their eyes it was old, tired, and needed to be put to pasture. Their ‘vibe pendulum’ swung too far to skirmish, IMO. But only time will tell. Hopefully this addition to the saturated skirmish game market will be a winner for them.

  • Azatoth

    Why are still people bothering with competitive play in AOS?
    I mean how much clearer and more obvious can GW get.
    AoS is published by a miniatures collecting company, that really does not care about rules, or competitive play.

  • frankelee

    I’ll just go ahead and say it: Are the people at Games Workshop out of their ******* minds??? Stupid and arrogant gets you here. I think they’ve been drinking their own Kool-Aid so long they don’t know how to stop, and actually think like the forum Kool-Aid drinkers here. “We’re going to lose one customer from fantasy and gain six new ones from the magical land of new customers and fairies!” That’s actually the top comment on this board, a guy who thinks that. That’s what GW execs think too. They’re going to lose 20% of their customers guaranteed now, and then lose the rest when they go out of business in five years. That’s how it really works. You don’t turn a business around by changing what you make and miraculously getting a bunch of people come out of the woodwork to buy it. That’s freshman business 101, and they don’t know that. Which unlike the 15 year olds who make 90% of the posts here, is really embarrassing for them.

  • Garrett Sorensen

    Lifting the worst rules from 3 different game systems was not the way to go either. I can get that maybe the other system wasn’t viable from a monetary standpoint. But everyone keeps throwing out all of these made up facts about how much money the game was loosing. You don’t know how much revenue it brought in. Don’t lie and say you do. Obviously it wasn’t doing as well as 40k and this is their attempt to make it so all of their player base feels like buying all of their product. It does seem like they are chopping their own arm off in the process. No one who plays fantasy as it is currently and enjoys it, will be interested in this game. Essentially it has no rules. We are finally going to see if they are a model company or a game company. Because these models with very little game design behind them will succeed of fail based on their looks and that is all.

  • Tommy

    Honestly, I’m looking forward to this!
    It’s not a replacement for warhammer fantasy its a simple skirmish game set in that universe. I think its a good idea And as im in the finishing stages of painting my 40k chaos this has landed at the right time. I fully intend to “give it a fair go”

  • Secundum

    Whelp, guess I won’t be buying any more fantasy products then.

  • Hey Larry,

    You might want to view the latest WD in its entirety. http://imgur.com/a/wKBMo

  • Alex White

    Mantic Games stock just rose…Seriously though, I’m a new convert to Warhammer (2 years), think I’ll stick with 8th and start working on my KoW armies.