40K: Gangs of Commorragh Latest


The next Dark Eldar themed game from GW has been spotted in January’s White Dwarf. Take a look:

image via Astropate (Facebook) 12-30-2016


It says (In Italian):
“Clashes at breakneck speed in the dark city – COMING SOON”

Hmm, I have a feeling this will be a boxed boardgame featuring an arena themed board of some type with Reavers vs Hellions, and maybe even other factions like Wytches and Mandrakes…

Could be cool.

I hope it’s just like this, but Grimdark!

~ Who’d be up for this?


  • ZeeLobby

    Great way to sell more maligned DE models without actually having to fix the faction.

    • Sam Nolton

      With the promo image it looks like Hellion/Jetbike gladitorial racing.

    • wibbling

      There are plenty of websites that will help improve your poor tactical ability. Try thedarkcty.net.

      Lots of really good players there who will give you all the advice you need.

      • Karru

        I personally don’t like the “Just use Eldar/Corsairs allies that take 75% of your points” or “Venoms and Trueborn, you don’t need anything else”. I’d like to be able to use the whole book, but alas not really that great thanks to the infinite GW wisdom.

        • John Bower

          You’d be able to if everyone played fluff instead of ‘min/max’ 40k. I’ve got 7 armies, all of which win/lose against each other. Eldar right? Butcher all comers yes? Well tell my Eldar that on Boxing day when Chaos obliterated them. Orks crap ye? Tell my Space marines that today who barely won the game by holding 1 objective out of 3, having lost first blood and most of their army. I have one army that is built to be somewhat competitive, and they tend to be the army that wins most; my Necrons. My biggest problem with them is they keep on getting back up when my other armies put them down. That reanimation roll should be 6, not 5+ and never, ever 4+, it just makes them near impossible to kill.

          • Karru

            The problem is that the game actually wants you to min-max with some armies. It encourages it, which I feel shouldn’t be the case.

            Eldar having a “formation” that allows them to take single Wraithknights, Demi-company with free Transports as long as you have two of them. Things like this are massively bad for the game and there is no reason not to take them as they are completely legal and no one can say you can’t bring them. They can refuse to play you, but you are in no way obligated to take them out of your list.

            This is why GW should actually take the time and make a decision for the actual size of the game. Then they should actually encourage that type of play. Take the CAD for example. If everyone just used CAD, the balance would be much better. Mostly because it is much easier to balance things out when everyone has the same army structure, but also so that those armies that have amazing units in some slots can’t spam them in great numbers that was never the intention.

            I play what I consider fun. I don’t like to “spam” same units that much with the exception of things like Transports or Troop choices, so my armies are usually very varied. My Space Marines field Tactical Marines in both Rhinos and Razorbacks, I also take Scouts, Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, Devastators, Land Speeders and Storm Talons on a regular basis. My Guard fields Infantry heavy army with nicely sized Platoons. My Eldar fields lots of Guardians and Rangers. My Orks are mechanised Boyz and Nobz with Killa Kan Support.

            I always use CAD as my base. Mostly because I don’t like the spammyness of formations, but also because I tend to find them either utterly useless, like the Orks and Guard, while others are broken like Space Marines and Eldar. It feels wrong to field them against an opponent that doesn’t play one of the “top dogs”. They are at a distinct disadvantage if I bring those, because I bring my usual stuff but I get bunch of extra rules to boot just because I play Eldar or Space Marines.

          • John Bower

            I do agree about free transports, that was a very bad and stupid idea. Giving something like another 2k of points at any level for free. Special rules for formations are not a bad idea per se though, just badly executed sometimes. But tell you what, go up against a Necron CAD, trust me it’s no better than a Decurion Detachment to face. My poor DE have that dubious honour today of facing crons, at 2500 I already know the outcome.

          • Karru

            I didn’t say that it would magically fix everything and make all armies very good. It just brings down the power level of the top dogs greatly.

            As I said, it’s nigh impossible for GW to balance out the formations and the alternative detachments. They don’t have a clear “point limit” for them, meaning they don’t know what point size should they be played at. Next problem is the requirements of the formations and the benefits you get. Space Marines get free Transports and EVERYTHING in the formation gets Objective Secured as well as the Tactical Doctorine to use once per game. Orks get the same benefit twice, which is Hammer of Wrath to all units of at least 10 models and Warboss can call a WAAAAGH! every turn after the first.

            Then you see the difference in army composition. 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, 6 Tactical Marine Squads, 2 Bike Squads or Land Speeders, 2 Devastator Squads with at least 8 Transports. Orks get 1 Warboss, 1 Mek, 6 units of Boys, a unit of Nobz or Mega Nobz and a unit of Gretchin. No Transports and those units of Boyz better be larger than 10 models to get your formations/detachment benefit.

            There is no balance between the formations and detachments. Some armies just get way better ones and are already at a massive advantage. This is why they shouldn’t be allowed at games under 2k points. I have nothing against formations and detachments, but unfortunately GW doesn’t do playtesting as we have seen with the releases. If they did, they would realise just how bad the balance is with the formations and detachments.

          • John Bower

            As I said though, some armies can still destroy others. Necrons in a CAD at 2k or more will totally destroy that Space Marine Demi Company. Every weapon (almost) in the Cron army is pretty well able to take down vehicles. Space Marine detachment is fluffy, so I say nothing to them having the Objsec, but the transports were totally OTT. Necrons again the DD is fluffy and pretty cool. I think the best thing for formations is not limit them to a minimum points to play, but limit the points they can have in them. Make all the base formations equal in points, and pay for the formation itself like the old Apocalypse in 5th ed did. Then you ‘have’ to take xyz units. No compromise. Super heavies and GMC’s should be back where they belong along with D weapons; put them back in Apoc and don’t let them out again. They were supposed to be large scale weapons and last resort. Instead GW dumbed them down and said ‘we want you to use them’.

            I’ll be honest; as somebody once said of apocalypse, if you aren’t losing 25% of your army each turn, it simply isn’t apocalypse. But that is now getting to be what happens in normal games too, and then it stops being fun to play some armies that simply can’t return the compliment. Okay Space marines are OP, but that can be dealt with, just take an Aquila strongpoint, sure 500 odd points but 500 odd points of SM killing large blast every turn, and to cap that fire through their flyers and no more flyer quite often too.

            I think the array of missions can help balance the game, I’ve got probably most of the books/missions available to me and the campaign I run uses Excel to tell me which mission to use and which factions are fighting.

            The result is sometimes the best armies that everybody complains are OP are caught on the back foot by others and obliterated. That happened to my Eldar on Boxing day, powerful army for sure, but when you have a city blocking LoS and CSM’s who like it that way and are surrounding you, it went very badly for the Eldar. I think at the end I had 1 Fire Prism, 3 rangers and a Crimson Hunter still alive. out of a 3k force.

          • Karru

            You seem to completely miss my point. Even if they put points into the formations and even if they then cost the same amount, it still doesn’t balance out the benefits and requirements in them.

            Space Marine Demi-company has way better requirements than the Ork WAAAGH-band. 1 Captain/Chaplain, 3 units of Tactical Marines, 1 “fast attack” and 1 “heavy support” to gain Objective Secured on everything in the formations as well as extra Tactical Doctrine is way better than a Warboss, a Mek, at least 60 Boys, a unit of Nobz/Meganobz and a unit of Gretchin. That Demi-company is way better at adapting so it’s much better to take it every time compared to CAD. It’s a CAD that wants you to take one more Troop, Fast Attack and Heavy Support choice that you would be required to take normally. The WAAAGH-Band wants you to take 1 HQ, 1 mini-HQ, 7 Troops and 1 Elite. On top of that, in order to get your full benefit of the formation, those units need to way over 10 models.

            The problem is the lack of balance between the formations. Balancing them out with point costs won’t work. AoS pricing for formations is usually around the cost of a single unit at best. Same thing would happen to 40k knowing GW. This is why they shouldn’t have point costs, but instead force the 2k point barrier. It’s also not just the formations that are supposed to be limited here. It’s the CAD spam and LoW spam that is also ruining the game big time.

            You also seem to forget that Necrons are amongst the high tier books. Not purely because of their Decurion, but because the book itself is strong. Like you said, you’d be able to use much more of the book “if people played to fluff and not min/max 40k”. Formations and multiple CADs encourage this. The game itself wants you to field as many models as possible, why not make those models the strongest in your army?

            I have played a lot of 5th edition recently and I noticed something interesting. Our lists became more interesting once we were forced to a single CAD and only Troops being able to Cap Objectives. We had to find ways to play around our army’s weaknesses and make sure our Troops survived. We had to invest a lot more into them, but at the same time we couldn’t just spam our strongest unit as 3 usually isn’t enough or it’s a waste of points due to large unit size.

            It is much, much better in current edition to take 2-3 of your cheapest HQ choices, 4-6 of your cheapest Troop choices and then just take 6-9 of your powerful units in small numbered squads. More targets for the enemy to shoot at, but still way more firepower. Then you have formations like the Eldar Aspect Host, or whatever it’s called, 3 units of Aspect Warriors and get +1 BS or WS. Why should I ever take a single unit of Warp Spiders or even 3 units of Warp Spiders with CAD, when I can just take that one and give all my Aspect Warriors in it BS5?

            Formations are impossible to balance. It is simply impossible. There will always be something wrong. Model requirements, benefits that you get from it and taking it over a CAD for example. It is also a thousand times easier to encourage new players into the game when you can say to them that CAD is the base where you should build your army. They look at it and see “hey, I only need an HQ and 2 Troops to have a legal army!” Sure, you do this already with them, but after their first few games they start to notice that people are bringing more models than the CAD allows. Then you teach them that if you bring X unit three times, you get a benefit for free so he shouldn’t care about CAD any more. He is then taught that the CAD is actually quite worthless and you should always just use Formations/Alternative Detachments where ever possible. This is where the interest starts to drop. They realise they need a lot more models in order to field them. He decides that to not do it and thus tries to build CAD. Then he faces a Double Demi-Company or someone who spams CAD + a Formation and gets annihilated. There goes that player.

            I still stand by my statement that Formations, LoWs and Multiple Detachments should be unavailable in games less than 2k points. This allows for much more fluffier gameplay and leads to more intersting games as well as better balance.

          • John Bower

            Well I know a few clubs you’d be right at home, some ban formations and LoW’s right off the bat. Which again hurts the Orks as … Ghazghull = LoW now. Of course you could balance them by making them x points to take the formation over and above taking the same stuff in a CAD. Even a CAD has benefits; Unbound you can take anything but nothing has objsec. So straight away taking a CAD has a benefit.

            If it was done like I said the old Apocalypse way, a formation like the Emperor’s Hammer for example I think was 500 points, plus models. So straight away you’re paying around a half again over what the formation is worth to get the benefits. Formations now should be the same, x amount plus models. That would cut a lot of the griping about them down. I can field a Space Marine Demi company, dammit I can field the whole sodding company if you like and I’d bet you’d still beat me. Why? Because I’ve only got 2 Rhinos and I’m not about to buy and paint another six. If people can afford to run a Demi Company good for them, just like in any sport then they’re going to win aren’t they?

            GP racing, same, team with most ££££’s wins, end of. It’s a shame 40k has followed Electronic Arts but that I’m afraid is the future, pay to win. From a gamer’s standpoint it sucks, but from a business standpoint? It’s awesome, people pay you a fortune just so their army can win.

            And that is what you get for tournament play in a game that wasn’t designed for it, GW saw the way Tourney players min/maxed their armies, and thought… hmm, we can milk this for all it’s worth; formations is the way to go.

          • Karru

            Okay, let’s say they put points to formations. It still doesn’t fix the massive unbalance they have between them. It actually makes it worse in some cases. Now on top of having to take nothing but 1000+pts of Lasguns, the Imperial Guard player has to pay extra for just taking the formation. Same thing with Orks, pay the points for your models, make a gimped army and pay the extra points for doing so. Meanwhile, Space Marines and Eldar are still not suffering at all. Oh, I have to pay 100pts in order to give my 15 Warp Spiders +1 BS? Sure thing. I have to pay 200pts to get myself free Transports? Okay.

            It still didn’t fix anything. It made everything worse. If you place the point cost to formations, it limits their usage in games over 2000pts for armies like Orks and Imperial Guard for example. Their Core Formations are already extremely expensive and restricting. If they add a point cost to those, it becomes even more of a problem. That’s why the best solution is to not place point costs on them and just limit them to games over 2000pts. People that enjoy playing bigger games with formations can still do so without problems and now those that find it completely acceptable to field 3 Wraithknights in a 1850pts game with Bikes and Warp Spiders to fill the remaining points disappear.

            One of the stupidest things that GW has ever done was the LoW change to Independent Characters. Revert those back and the problem is solved. Also, you can still go ahead and ask your opponent if its okay to field your list if it isn’t what would be normally allowed.

            The restriction to units is meant to encourage more fun and balanced games. It helps new players get used to what the game is on a basic level. It makes the game a lot easier to explain and introduce when they aren’t seeing people bring multiple LoWs and spam couple very powerful units every single game.

            I don’t see why this would be a problem to anyone. This is the biggest balance breaker in the game right now. Easiest and most realistic possibility, knowing GW and proper play testing isn’t a thing, is to restrict those to larger sized games where ALL armies have a chance to field their Alternative Detachments when available. This makes the pricing of some units and models such as the Imperial Knight and Wraithknight more balanced. In larger games, there are so many targets that either the Wraithknight will have a hard time actually contributing or it will be taken down before it gets to do anything.

            As much as I don’t like AoS, just look how they do it. Yes, they have point costs in their formations, but the army construction is still the same for EVERYONE. They have to build their armies using the set rules. Some armies can’t just take a formations or some alternative way to make an army and have no issues while others struggle.

      • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

        Try checking if your links function before you post them – there are plenty of websites that will help improve your poor spelling ability 😛

        But seriously, do you really believe it unreasonable when a player expresses frustration with the game’s imbalance? Sure, skill can allow a player to win using less points-efficient set-ups than their opponent, but their skill could be getting more bang for their buck with a different unit, and that’s a bit frustrating, especially when it’s happening with a premium-priced product.

        • Cergorach

          Jay! Winning at plastic soldiers combat is important!

          If you haven’t seen the memo yet. 40k is an arms race, every release is just a tad better. DE is one of the older Codexes (over two years old). It’ll hit the rotation eventually, making certain things suddenly better and others inevitably worse. GW is using a game to sell miniatures, that’s where the big money is, it’s certainly not with making rules for games.

          • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

            “Jay! Winning at plastic soldiers combat is important!”

            It’s a pity this type of unreasoned response is so common. “You said something I disagree with? Well, I’ll just imply you’re overinvested!” Ridiculous.

            As for your latter point – yes, that’s obviously true. Where we differ is that I think it’s reasonable to express an interest in the flaws in 40k’s system being improved.

          • Cergorach

            The problem is that the whining (yes it’s whining!) comes from all sides. If/when DE are raised in power, we’ll have fans of all the non imperial SM factions crawling all over complaining why THEIR faction didn’t get fixed.

            I’ve been around since 40k got initially released, balance has always been an issue with these sort of games. That’s always an never ending battle with the local meta (so it might get fixed for your region, it’ll get broken for another region where it was working fine).

            Since GW went public many years ago the arms race was solidified as an actual business model for their games. That won’t change EVER! So a fix is only ever a temporary fix at most. If people don’t get that yet or expect it to change, they are uncommonly foolish (and the Internet shows that many are).

            As for complaining about all the flaws of 40k here on BoLS, it’s kind of ironic. Just about all the lists here are all unit spam. Sometimes I like that as well, sometimes I like variety (regardless how powerful it is).

            The idea behind games like 40k/AoS is that they are never improved, they are only changed. Preferably in a way that will generate continued sales.

          • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

            You continue to expand upon “power creep as a sales mechanic” as though it were insightful, despite it being plainly obvious throughout a grand variety of games. Further, it is not some immutable universal law – for instance, it seems quite likely that the General’s Handbook was introduced to capitalize on customers who desired a more competitive experience in AoS.

            I, and many others, will continue to express an interest in a tighter, more balanced ruleset for the hobby in areas dedicated to discussing said hobby. If that meets your definition of foolishness or whining, well, that’s none of my concern.

          • ZeeLobby

            Hey. At least he didn’t go with “you’re just a WAAC player and need to just have fun!”.

      • J Mad

        As a person that loves that site. Please do us all a favor and dont think all DE players are bad tactically. The DE book is trash and you know it. You just want to argue with someone

      • ZeeLobby

        Oh GWibbling. Your the best!

      • Drpx

        Army is fine. Use more terrain. Always go first. I beat an Ork player last week.

        • ZeeLobby

          Your one data point clearly overrides everyone else’s experience. My bad. 😀

    • 6Cobra

      I’m just worried that this *is* Necromunda’s eventual return…

      • ZeeLobby

        That would be sad :(.

    • J Mad

      Well…. yeah how else are they going to sell one of the worst units in the game? I mean how else are the 10,000 boxes of hellions going to sell?

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. Poor hellions. I have a ton of them, and they weren’t even that great when DE could compete…

      • Drpx

        Deep strike no scatter. Assault from Reserve. Rend on 3+. Haywire attacks in CC.

        • J Mad

          Yeah they need to be DS melee shenanigans.

          Or Make them stupidly fast, like 12″ move, 6+d6 Run + Charge.

    • Maybe this is Dark Futures return…maybe we will have a ‘rolling road’.

  • Huntard

    Please be my dream game of Dark Eldar gladiatorial GorkaMorka.

  • Dragons Claw

    I’m having visions of a dark elder version of top gear

    • Darth Bumbles

      Some say he eats babies and thr mandrakes think he’s god.
      All we know, he’s called THE STIG.

      • Dragons Claw

        That was the greatest decapitation. ………….In the wooorrrlld!!!!!

    • wibbling

      Always thought of Jeremy more as an Ork, to be honest!

      • Old zogwort

        This doesn’t have to be a disqualifier does it ?

  • Simon

    Sounds like Motorball from Battle Angel Alita (a battle racing game basically Mario Kart, but where people die instead of just spin out a bunch).

    • Karru

      Are you saying that people don’t die when they get hit by a shell few meters before finishing the race first in Mario Kart? I mean, I get this sudden urge to choke a b*tch when that happens to me.

      • SonoftheMountain

        no, its when I get hit with lightning, a red shell, THEN a blue shell and go from first to last in 5 seconds

        • Karru

          Sounds about right for a standard game of Mario Kart with your friends.

      • ZeeLobby


    • Statham

      Ahem, having seen that death-glare!Luigi meme from the last MK game? People totally die.

  • Vorsun

    F-Zero 40k looks great.

    • PrehistoricUF0

      If they created a new game system similar to it with rogue-actors from all the races who just decided to go private and make money in racing leagues I’d buy it.

      I guess Space Marines wouldn’t be allowed to participate.

  • Moke

    If this means I can get a load of DEldar Jetbikes cheaply I’m all for it. I need a load so I can kitbash them with Necron Tomb Blades to make a set of new Tomb blade models that aren’t utterly horrible.

  • Simon Chatterley

    Well the setting and idea is certainly very cool.

    I’m not a DE player but I’m interested 🙂

    • Marc Buckingham

      I’m Dark Eldar curious about it.

      • memitchell

        It’s perfectly natural to be “curious.” But, acting on it ain’t natural.

  • zeno666

    Looks like a reason to remind people these models exists and just rebox the old stuff.
    GW boardgames never stick.

    • deris87

      I’m pretty sure they’re not supposed to. They’re splash SKUs to generate hype and move a bunch of product.

    • Xodis

      I wouldn’t say that. Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Warhammerquest, Battlefleet Gothic, SpaceHulk, and GorkaMorka seem to have a following that never goes away….Epic probably to a lesser extent
      Gorechosen, both Horus Heresy games, both Deathwatch games, and the Scout game I agree, are probably successful because of the cheap models.
      Silver Tower has a good following and reputation in the boardgame community though, not as high as IA or Descent, but then again the models take more work.

      • 6Cobra

        You’re wasting your breath – zeno666 has a (unusually visceral, even for this site) loathing for GW and every product they make. I suspect he was bullied on the childhood playground by a GW games designer or something, and now it’s payback time.

        • zeno666

          Nah, you’re giving me too much credit.
          I actually like Skaven 😉

      • Statham

        This – Prospero and Calth had solid, well-thought out games backing the models, and the latter has seen solid support through WD. Overkill was great fun in terms of varying missions, surviving the ‘Stealers, etc.

        But, as suggested, some people will complain about everything. Give people a bunch of models at a ridiculously good price and a pretty decent board game to back it up, and they’ll find something to whinge about, as seen above.

      • Ben_S

        The ones in your first paragraph are all good games, but only half of them are board games.

        • Xodis

          Fair enough.
          Despite Gorechosen being a little simple I think its a lot of fun, and even more so with the WD rules that expanded on it. Have not got around to playing the HH games but I hear it both ways.

          • euansmith

            I would like to see more character get added to Gorechosen; from different factions too.

          • Xodis

            I completely agree. Tzeentch has its Silver Tower that invites tons of strangers to come die in the halls, it makes total sense that Khorne would bring in different “Skulls” for entertainment.

      • zeno666

        I wouldn’t consider some of those as board games though.

  • jasonsation

    I don’t know about anyone else, but im loving these GW board games. It’s weird. I was just watching return of the Jedi and thinking how cool it would be to have a game that simulates the speeder bike chase.

  • Golden Yak

    From just the name I imagined a Necromunda-style gang game set in Commoragh (which would be rad), though yeah now it seems more like a racing game. Could be cool, though the former concept could also have allowed for some neat xenos gangs. Maybe the dark eldar let ork squatters race sometimes.

  • Laurence J Sinclair

    So, that picture pretty much confirms it’s not going to be just a re-release of that old Wych arena game from White Dwarf.

  • Old zogwort

    Pls let this be an actual specialist game and not just a dead end boardgame

  • Commissar Molotov

    40K “Road Rash?”

  • piglette

    I want a clawed fiend on a trike.

  • Xodis

    Was hoping for a more Necromunda styled game but this could be cool too.

  • Painjunky

    This could be an exciting rules and minis revamp with a decurion and formations for a faction that DESPERATELY needs it!!!

    Or it could be a lazy, half ased and/or ridiculous stand alone board game that you will never find anyone to play with you!!!

    Which way do YOU think it will go!?!?!

    • Statham

      Yeah, those board games were so lazy and half-assed despite being really quite well-done and fun. Overkill was fun, Prospero was fun, Calth was fun. All had support in White Dwarf. All had models at – typically – lower prices than their individual boxed incarnations. But.. Yeah. You keep complaining about a two-fold method of pushing new models and armies that clearly works… Because you have one of a number of armies that need rebalancing, like… Oh, a number of others.

      • ZeeLobby

        But no one plays them now, because quite frankly, they’re pretty shallow as board games. A great way to get cheaper minis though.

        • memitchell

          I find the latest offerings the right amount of tactical and challenging. I’m not crazy about games with fifty moving parts. I don’t consider them superior, I find them a chore. With ALL the GW boardgames dating back to the original Space Hulk, you get skirmish battles, and you get to kill things.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean are you talking about their recent games? Cause there’s usually more than 50 moving parts. I’m not saying theyre bad games, just that they lack any real replayability mechanics. Everyone I know who buys them, myself included, plays them once and then the cardboard sits in the shelves. Their older games definitely had better replayability. Space hulk is an old game after all.

          • memitchell

            Assassinorum is a “system” game like Space Hulk. But, it is limited in scope. It’s game system is actually Space Crusade/Tyranid Attack with some doodads. Calth and Prospero are more skirmish game than man-to-man. Overkill is a hybrid. They all deserve more than one play. You may not realize what you are missing. My problem is finding opponents and play dates.

          • ZeeLobby

            That might be the real issue, and honestly some indication of how good the games are, I have yet to find anyone who wouldn’t play something else over them after playing them once. I’d be all for it, but they’d rather play other games, or GWs primary games. Space Hulk is the only exception of their new stuff. I hope they’ll bring back necromunda or mordheim soon. I’m sure they’ll just be copy and pastes, but they were good games.

      • Painjunky

        You missed it so ill spell it out for you.

        DE needs a new codex.

        Not a board game that nobody will ever play with you… like the rest of the board games GW has released recently.

    • ZeeLobby

      Haha. Definitely the second. I’ll add it to my stack of GW board games no one ever wanted to play past the first time.

  • Odsox

    I’m just hoping for some gang-themed formations or something.

  • grenstauf

    Wow, my DE force is relevant again. Now if i could get a new dias of destruction…..

  • I’m intrigued but I doubt I will see anything worth splashing cash on.

  • PrehistoricUF0

    People still play Dark Eldar?!