CSMs: How many 2+ Rerolls is Enough? FTN

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This image displays the chaosstar, which is a symbil for anti-cosmos or simply chaos

Codex Traitor Legion book can with no rolls necessary put several 2+ re-roll save Daemon Princes on the table.  Watch out!

The Traitor Legion book has no end of awesome combos.  With no rolls necessary Chaos can now put several 2+ re-roll save Daemon Princes on the table.  Watch out!  These armies can threaten the top tier.

Episode 173 is here!

Hey guys,

We are wrapping up the year talking about Chaos in a way that I never thought we would again.  The Traitor Legion book is very strong and can compete at the top tier with just a little work.  We talk a lot about the Night Lords in this show.

The combo of rules offered with Traitor Legions is amazing.  Like we state you can either go pretty easy on your commitment and pick up the Legion base rules or you can fully commit and get the ‘full frontal’ package that Chaos offers.

We also call out a few things about the Emperor’s Children and the Night Lords.  This book would be impossible to cover in one show so please indulge us as we continue to dive into the various legions.  We’ll be having a bonus episode on ‘crunchy’ list design soon too.

The Finishing Moves segment is sponsored by Gamemat.eu. Their Industrial Terrain set is great and they offer a product that is pre-painted. This, combined with their mats, is a great way to get playing with professional looking game boards fast.

It’s all about hair today.  Hair today, gone tomorrow..   I couldn’t resist.   We talk about painting the wild an bushy type stuff like Space Wolves and Dwarves and also the molded cuts of the Blood Angels as well.



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FTN mostly focuses on Warhammer 40k, but again you will see in the first few episodes we take a severe deep dive into nerdom. These have been a blast to record and I hope they help pass the time for you.

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Paul Murphy – Host

Justin Troop – troopsmash
Christopher Morgan – captain morgan
Adam Abramowicz – Beyond the Brush Studios
Andrew Whittaker

  • Matthew

    Person 1: If you combo these rules it brakes the game and makes it no fun. They should fix it!

    Person 2: Well… you could always not do that and don’t play with anyone that does. Make having fun the priority and simply try and enjoy the game, rather than break it.

    Person 1: What do you think I have, self control? If it’s legal, I have to do it! I have no ability to control myself!

    Person 2: *Facepalm*

    • Cergorach

      I can understand the American legal system, if you were to legalize drugs, you would have the same problem as with guns… Everyone would have them, there would be more drugs then people in the US… Or is my vision of the drinking, smoking, gun toting American a stereotype? And if so, is it true? 😉 What would happen if games didn’t have ‘broken’ rules to exploit… Oh! The horrors!

      The problem with folks wanting to ‘fix’ 40k is that they are ‘serious’ 40k gamers, they participate in Tournaments and think they are the majority of the 40k fans (instead of the 1.4% they actually are), and if not, the most important ones… So GW HAS to listen to them…

      Now, a fun game (system) doesn’t have to be broken by definition.

      • ZeeLobby

        Got actual stats for that 1.4%? Or is that just coming out your butt?

        I personally only go to 2/3 events a year, and yet play every week, and I want it fixed. What does that make me?

        • kobalt60

          from the tone of your post, i’d say, a troll?

          • ZeeLobby

            Why? Because I called out the fact that he made up a number? That’s like the opposite of trolling. Or because I don’t fit his idea of what a happy GW gamer is?

            Oh, crap, you’re the troll. Damn. I missed it. My B! You got me.

      • Kyle Goguen

        Casual gamers don’t benefit from an unbalanced game system either. Everyone gets more out of a balanced game, not just competitive players

        • ZeeLobby

          Shhh. Logic confuses the casuals!

      • memitchell

        As a proud American who does not drink, does not smoke, and does not own a gun, I am outraged by this post!

        Dammit. I’m missing out on ALL the fun. I knew it!

      • Xodis

        I dont think that is correct….like even a little bit. 40K’s lack of a fix is what has pushed my group, and IMO others who are angry (because seriously why be angry about a game, much less one you never intended on playing), away from the game. So while the Tournament crowd may have a better idea of what is actually broken and needs fixing in the game (because they need to know this to be successful against those who will take advantage of it), they are hardly the only ones asking for a fix…..which wouldn’t make sense in a way since an imbalanced 40K provides them with more advantages anyways.

    • ZeeLobby

      Person 1: I don’t really want to play against that, I think it’s too powerful.

      Person 2: OK, I can take that out, but then I don’t really want to play with that one unit you’re taking over there.

      Person 1: But I only brought enough models to fit the list we talked upon, so if I take it out we’ll have to reduce points. Plus I really like that unit.

      Person 2: OK, we’ll reduce points, but if we do, that other unit you has becomes too strong.

      Person 1: Fine well I can take out both, but then we only have 2 units on the field, and it doesn’t seem that exciting.

      Person 2: Yeah… Wouldn’t it be nice if things were just correctly costed so we didn’t have to nitpick back and forth before games…

      Person 1: It does make playing at our local store kind of a pain in the A**.

      • rtheom

        Person 1: I could take this powerful unit that my opponent likely has no way to deal with or I could not and make the game more enjoyable for them because looking at their army build, they have nothing to deal with it.

        (There need not even be an interaction here, but you could ask if they have anything that can possibly deal with Big Unit X too…)

        • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

          If your army has nothing to deal with x, that really is a problem of your army, not of the person fielding x.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Depends what x is, if x is a wraith knight and you have 2x in your army it’s not quite the same thing as if x is a land raider.

          • rtheom

            Yeah, and that’s where your own judgement comes into play. Is it hard to deal with? Or will it win the game by itself because you brought it? As a decent player, you should always be asking yourself this and removing anything that will just ruin a game in a non-competitive setting.

          • rtheom

            Or, you, as a decent player, could adjust your army to make sure that the other person has fun too. No one likes the guy that says “It’s your fault you didn’t buy more stuff.” or “It’s your fault because you didn’t bring every model you own, like me.” Trust me. No one likes that guy.

    • Heinz Fiction

      Person 1: I bought a new TV but one button is broken and blows up the device. They should fix it!

      Person 2: No big deal, you can always not push that button…

      • Mike X (Official)

        Not a very good analogy. Try again.

      • rtheom

        No, your analogy would be more accurate as:

        Person 1: My grandmother owns a tube TV but I am going to sign her up for the service only compatible with HD TVs and then wonder why she’s not grateful I got her the very best stuff even though I know she can’t use it.

    • Ryan C

      That like playing an MMO and being like: “The game is too easy!”, then responding to that with: “well you should just wear crappier gear”

      It is the game designer’s job to beta test their systems so the rule system ensures that situations don’t come up that make the game unfun. It simply isn’t practical for every player to come up with their own arbitrary systems.

  • ZeeLobby

    I’d say 6. Def need 6.

    Honestly, and I don’t think this will ever change, but the best move for the game would be to get rid of the D6. It would allow for a much better range of possible outcomes, and would allow more space to design models and units into.

    • Severius_Tolluck

      or you know go the old fantasy rought and actually make the table matter… have more units s1-10 instead of always floating around 4-6. Then make things 6 or over get re rolls, etc.
      However I know, modifiers are confusing bloat that nobody but me likes.

      • ZeeLobby

        Nah. I like em too. The problem is that regardless of stat values, and ranges, and modifiers, you’re still looking at a factor of 6 chance that something will occur. There’s only 6 outcomes. It just limits the depth of any game. Its why you see other games going to 2D6, or D20, etc. as the main rolling mechanics.

        • Severius_Tolluck

          Fair enough. I just feel they don’t use the table to its fullest effect. They also made it were ones always fail and six’s always succeed so that kinda limits you quite a bit.

          • ZeeLobby

            Ah, yeah, when you only have 6 outcomes, and one is always an auto-fail/win that’s even more limiting. I dunno, It’d just be interesting to see a new system.

  • Iron Father Stronos

    Fatey, LOC + tetrad is not fun to play against at all. Theres pretty much nothing you can do against it. To much psychic to cancel, you have to spam anti air, even then, 2+ jinks, Re-rollable saves, and look out sirs pretty much make anything “Fun” about the list a joke.

    Kinda of what like the competitive scene is…. a joke. 35pt Inquisitors helping eldar and tau lists?

  • LordKrungharr

    I’m definitely making an iron Warriors and night lords princely duo! Don’t fret people, that’s probably close to 700 points right there,
    and grav guns can take them out nicely, as do scores of str 6 shots ala space elf and space cow fish communists.

  • Vorsun

    As someone who plays Ravenwing

    No. There needs to be more.

  • DeCold

    A mediocre army getting 2+ rerolls when everyone running AP 2 is outrageous? An inqusition getting 2++ with rerolls is okay. *facepalm*

    • nurglitch

      That army also gets 4+ cover save in the open, first turn, and 5+ invulnerable save. It’s a 2+ cover save with a re-roll if you’re inclined to camp in woods, which is a good idea since Move Through Cover makes it less inconvenient, and re-rolling charges means your DP can both better survive first turn assaults, and better react to them. All without the cost of Wings.

  • Traitor8

    It’s irritating that Night Lords rules are talked about as being ‘awesome’ though only when you play them the one dimensional way they have been designed. Basically spam raptors…yay…FFS! How is that good? My legions rules are designed for me to play one way and way only if I want to get the most out of their legion rules. So forget about all my CSM units, rhinos, terminators, chosen, marks, etc…buy raptors…ugh…

    • BurpinforDayz

      The raptor models are awesome, if you look at the helmets they have the 30k MKIV armour but warped with chaos.

      • Geronimo32509

        I use them as 30k Assault Marines for my Word Bearers.

    • nurglitch

      Actually the Murder Talon rules really benefit the Chaos Warband more than they do the Raptor Talon. The Raptor Talon is useful, but where it really needs to be held in reserve you need boots on the ground to start the game. Havocs, Bikers, just about everything benefits from Stealth and Night Vision.

  • Agent OfBolas

    CSMs finally are getting strong, but not OP book – and we can see article how it’s broken “because it’s CSM, they should be boys to beat”.

    Meanwhile Eldar, Necron, TAU and SM books are still OK and nothing wrong with them.

    Please …

    • Nyyppä

      CSM are still not strong. Ok against lower tier codices on average and DG can dabble with the middle tier but they are not strong.

      • Agent OfBolas

        Magnus disagree.

        • Nyyppä

          Wait, what? You know that the faction is not a sum of one model/unit? Flyrant is an ok unit but nids are still crap and there’s no way around it.

          • Agent OfBolas

            Traitor Legions is finally making CSMs a viable choice. Death Guard with their options are insane as for this book. Not to mention other possibilities.

            Of course, this book is not a easy mode Space Marines or Eldars, but CSM book is really good right now.

  • nurglitch

    Any Warhammer player knows only 1 re-roll is ever permissible…

  • Nyyppä

    I still hink it’s hilarious how all of these extreme fan sites/blogs/vlogs praise the TL but apparently none of them have said anything about the legions that got poor treatment. It’s all about DG and some minor spam lists that have no way of working in real situations.

    It seems that facts are too much to handle for the radicalized fans.

    • Traitor8

      I think it’s great that we got our legion rules back. And the way GW tried to keep things fluffy is a welcome development. But I think we are kidding ourselves we think there is anything here that ‘fixes’ CSM. Far from it. We desperately need a new core codex.

      • Nyyppä

        The new codex is not enough. The legions themselves range from ok (DG) to absolute garbage (WB). They could have made them all good and ot would have not taken more effort.

        • Traitor8

          I can’t argue with that. I really don’t get why DG got more love when nurgle was already pretty much the default chaos army used on gaming tables.

          • Nyyppä

            Exactly because of that. GW has no understanding of what “cause and effect” means. They think the things people spam are popular because they are cool, not because they are strong. Obviously nurgle has real fans but obviously not nearly as many as sales figures would show. Nurgle just is the only way to play CSM. It’s the same thing as with chapter tactics that made UM and WS a lot more popular than what they were.
            Anyway, they saw fans where they did not understand the reasons and kicked it up a notch while they really did not bother much with the rest.