40K: All Space Marine Chapter Tactics Are Out

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Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands & Salamanders Chapter Tactics are out and about. Come see.

GW have put out the new chapter tactics we’ve all been waiting for:

 

 

 

Thoughts

I think the Raven Guard and the Ultramarines are very strong. Imperial fists and White Scars are solid. the Salamanders and Black Templars are trailing the pack.  What do you think?

 

~ Have at it – I’m sure you have opinions on these.

  • UltimateCrimson

    I think overall all of them are solid, but the Imperial Fists. If you aren’t playing with a lot of terrain it’s useless as I’ve never seen anyone use buildings at my FLGS. If I had to pick the most useful tactic, it would be the Salamanders, you are always going to be using it. It may not be the the strongest, but you’re going to be shooting and fighting every turn.

    • Witch Beatrice

      what about Imperial fists better tactic – enemy cannot use cover to improve their saving throw. Thats pretty good.

      • ZeeLobby

        honestly the fact that you have to be in a terrain piece to reap it’s benefits (ie, not behind), means that the mileage might not be all that great. I mean unless you house rule it to be good.

        • IronGryphon

          Yay! Iron Hands get screwwed by the Emperor’s Pooch once agian.

          • SIA

            I miss my feel no pain save on my skitarii be happy with what you have, espcially seeing as how it seems to be rarer now

          • IronGryphon

            skitari still get a version of feel no pain. Look at your Imp 2 index again.

          • SIA

            a 6+ invul save is not feel no pain.

          • Zingbaby

            With the exception of few rare units they have the only true Feel No Pain in the game right now, this is big. We’re not playing 7th ed anymore.

        • SIA

          inf still gain cover if they are behind it.

          • ZeeLobby

            You got a page? I swear we couldn’t find it.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            If a a model is 50% or greater, obstructed by terrain it gains the benefit. It is in the terrain section, but it varies from piece to piece as listed.

          • ZeeLobby

            Ah, yeah, that’s the issue. Most terrain pieces do very little to obstruct 50% or greater. Especially when firing long distances cross table. It is very ineffective. Though like I said, house rules could fix that.

          • euansmith

            Get some foamcore and some 40k artwork and make a pile of big billborads 😉

          • ZeeLobby

            I literally played at a tournament that had 2 90 degree opened books in the center to block line of sight. What an eyesore, lol.

          • euansmith

            Where they good books?

          • ZeeLobby

            They had to hide knights, so they were textbooks (ugh 🙁 )

          • AEZ

            Seriously.. That organiser should gone with 3 sides of a cardboard box sprayed grey or silverish (one side on the table, leaving 2 walls (or also leave a 3 wall or ceiling). If there was a Litle more time some thin cardboard tiles glued on it with a high lite white on the edges for texture. Maybe cut out a few windows.. Its like 5 min work to make some ting way less disturbing on the table.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            True, but again, if your model is in cover regardless if it blocks los or not, you gain the benefit. It’s meant for walls, or buildings. So long as you are hiding, you still gain it!

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, my issue has always been that there’s that whole in the wall, and my models can draw full line of sight to the models across from them. so now they no longer get cover, even if it’s a tiny freaking hole, just because of the distance and perspective. I dunno, I much preferred the abstracted terrain days.

          • Matthew Barnhart

            what about intervening units. There is nothing about that in the book. we can shoot through troops now without penalty.

          • SIA

            The FAQ states that only inf can gain cover from being behind cover if 50% of them is obscured if I recall correctly

          • AEZ

            Low walls and pipes should work.. and there should be more of those on the tables.

          • vlad78

            Where is it written?

          • Matthew Barnhart

            Advanced rules about terrain.

          • vlad78

            It works only with the barricades imho.

        • vlad78

          I disagree. It negates all cover so no cover bonus against the IF. In cover means benefitting from cover not in a terrain imho.

          Cover is difficult to get under 8th, infantry units have to be entirely within or over a terrain giving cover. Other units have to be obscured at 50% from the shooter point of view. IF shoot at their foes just as if they were in an open field EVERYTIME.

          Granted this is not a fantastic bonus but it’s quite important against low save armies like the guard, the orks or the nids.

          Terrain and cover rules are terrible with this edition anyway and IF rules only made them worse.

      • highwind

        Imperial Fists isnt about breaking sieges (thats Iron Warriors), they are about building up / holding sieges!

        A much better rule in terms of gameplay AND fluff would be:
        “Imperial Fists in cover get +2 to their armor safes instead of one”
        or
        “If your enemy is shooting an Imperial Fist units in cover he has to substract 1 from the hit roll”

    • violencejack

      With my play group and the local FLGS I play at, buildings are used a lot so this would effect me often.

    • IronGryphon

      How don’t understand how you can say this when the Iron Hands got an unreliable ability. A 1 in 6 chance to save against a wound while the new Death Guard get a 2 in 6 chance sounds very much like that GW hates the Iron Hands. I bet we’ll still be the only First Founding Chapter without a named character in the new codex too.

      • ReverendTiberiusJackhammer

        What’s the problem with Death Guard’s special save being a bit better? A. Hasn’t that always been the case? B. It fits the fluff, Death Guard are swollen with unholy magicks, Iron Hands just have an above-average amount of prosthetics. C. Isn’t that relative strength balanced out by a higher cost and a weakened Move stat?

        • Aurion Shidhe

          And the IH are 8 pts cheaper per model.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Deathguard get Disgustingly Resilient on fewer units.

      • Sparowl

        In life, a member of the Iron Hands has no name.

        Once they have failed their 6+ and shown the Flesh to be Weak, then, they can have a name.

        • Ben

          His name was Robert Paulson….

          • Logan Miller

            His name was Ferrus Manus…

          • Josh Felstead

            But you can’t get more Iron Handsy than actually being called “Iron Hand” in Latin.

        • vlad78

          Yes they are then called stupid plastic soldier with stupid rules forgotten on a shelve and taking dust.

          Piece of advise, don’t fail your 6+ save.

        • euansmith
        • Matthew Barnhart

          His name was Sydney Applebaum

      • Rattlernxt

        The Death Guard pay almost 1/3 more for that extra save. Iron Hands dont pay anything extra. Gift horse-mouth.

      • Matthew Barnhart

        They don’t have a named character because he keeps dying from lack of a feel no pain.

    • Homeskillet

      I had been thinking this as well. Salamanders buffs every unit, every phase. This is a great generalist Chapter Tactic. When lists are built around the other Chapter Tactics to maximize their effectiveness (gimmick lists), then they’ll be better. But in general, the Salamanders tactic is pretty great.

    • Brettila

      Salamanders’ is strong! Every unit getting that. Think about tanks, or the one lascannon in the squad. That Sgt/character with the combi melta.

    • matty199

      the imperial fist one is terrible (they might as well have said they dont get chapter tactics) the ravenguard one is great. Didnt gw promise they wouldnt do this? Ahh another edition where i pretend my marines arent yellow lol

      • Severius_Tolluck

        I dunno, sounds pretty great to me. Considering I hug terrain like a mofo with my sisters, which makes them a 2+ save.. the math alone makes that more likely for me to fail again if is reduced back to a 3+. Since it is also a blanket rule for infantry, that means that no cover save at all for weapons such as the Lascannon, etc means I at best get a 6 up.

      • highwind

        Raven Guard reads better than it acutally is…
        – it is worthless vs enemys that focus on melee
        – many SM units need to be in rapid fire range to be fully effective

  • Heinz Fiction

    Salamanders seem rather meh to me…

    • Zingbaby

      I don’t get it, this is huge, everyone else needs to keep their warlord nearby for rerolls, it’s 1 die but this is per unit every time it fights or shoots, darn good.

      • G Ullrich

        Its definitely a step up from the master crafted weapon on the Sgt.

      • Heinz Fiction

        Its only really worth something on powerful weapons, not if the whole squad has bolters or something…

        • Lebowski1111111111

          you find alot of bolter only squads in your meta? this seems very good to me.

        • Dragon2928

          This definitely favors putting a special cc weapon on the sarge. As a long-time Salamanders player I am going to make that a priority.
          Overall, I think this tactic will add more over the course of a game than it seems at first glance…

      • Dan Wilson

        Yeah I predict lots of 5 man Sally squads running around with a lascannon/multimelta and powerfist on the sarge. The fact its Per Unit as well is even huger.

        • Valourousheart

          It would seem to affect everything in the army that has the keyword. So that means Sally IC, tanks and dreads get it too.

          • Horus84cmd

            Doesn’t affect tanks. WH-com twitch stream stated Chapter traits will only effect keywords: infantry, biker and dreadnought’s

          • Zingbaby

            Still really good.

          • Horus84cmd

            Oh for sure. I think they’re all pretty good.

          • Rush Darling

            You got a link to that video bud?

          • Horus84cmd

            Twitch stream from Friday just gone. Are you a WarhammerTV subscriber? As you’d need to be to watch reruns of streams

          • Rush Darling

            Ah cracking, thanks. Will dig it out mate. Much obliged.

          • Horus84cmd

            It in the 1st game of Marines vs Eldar. GW were showing of the new SM codex and the redemptor dread.

        • Dragon2928

          Not PF… thunderhammer! 🙂 (It’s in the sergeant weapons list…)

      • IronGryphon

        Unless it works for my Iron Hands’ FNP rolls, the ability so only semi-good.

        • Zingbaby

          Well uhh yeah it doesn’t, cuz it’s for Salamanders. Both are really good though. Iron Hands have a real Feel No Pain not this wonky Apothecary healing next turn crap.

      • orionburn

        I don’t get it either. With all the high damage dealing weapons out there this is huge to have this ability and not burn up command points. Really don’t get why people see this as being weak.

      • Jabberwokk

        For once Zingbaby we agree. I’m finding accuracy, especially on low volume high damage weapons to massively important.

    • IronGryphon

      You wouldn’t be wrong in that feeling. I feel the same about Iron Hands.

      • PrimoFederalist

        I have a feeling you’re going to prove to be the guy who constantly b!tches about 8th for the entire edition because you feel personally slighted by your chapter’s “good not great” Chapter Tactics.

    • ILikeToColourRed

      in 7th they got a free mastercrafted weapon per squad
      this is exactly the same

      • Nameless

        except
        a) the master crafted was limited to the Sargent, where as this can be used on the heavy/special weapon.
        b)you pick the weapon to reroll after you see the result, rather than before the game begins.
        c)it lets you reroll to a wound roll as well.
        d) the reroll to wound doesn’t need to be the same weapon as the reroll to hit.
        e) you get the effects in both the shooting and the close combat phases where as you had to chose melee or ranged weapon to mastercraft.

        for example: a squad shoots a unit of chaos marines getting a 4 followed by a 2 on the sargent’s bolt pistol a 1 on the lascannon. with 7th ed there would be no rerolls, the mastercrafted bolt pistol scored a hit.

        In the same situation in 8th; both the lascannon to hit can be rerolled and the bolt pistol to wound can be rerolled. potentially greatly changing the outcome of the shooting phase.

        • ILikeToColourRed

          i stand corrected, its better than in 7th – however i was responding to a complaint about it being “meh”

  • JD Robertson

    2 re-rolls per unit per phase on Salamanders seems pretty decent. Not as good as some but not at the bottom either. Somewhat lacking in character, though. Shame you can’t re-roll random number of shots for a boost to flamers.

    • Sparowl

      For that, you’ll have to spend a CP.

      • Moonsaves

        You’d have to spend a CP just to reroll one, not both hitting and wounding one after the other. It’s very powerful and I don’t think people are realising it.

        • Sparowl

          I was referring to re-rolling the number of shots for flamers.

    • highwind

      well, flamers are overcosted for units with BF 3+ anyway

  • Brett Kirk

    Most have the potential for really great stuff, but the Salamander tactic will always be there and doing work. Kind of meta considering it’s a slow but steady bonus. Those rerolls might tip the balance of an important phases where bad luck just screws you over.

    • MechBattler

      As a Sallies player this is very familiar to me. It’s basically a master crafted reroll, but better since it can be ANY failed roll, not just on a single specific weapon.

      It could be a really big deal for a missed melta or thunder hammer attack.

      • Horus84cmd

        Or saving those all important overcharged plasmas

        • MechBattler

          Yes, preventing plasma-splosions in your own face would be a smart use of a re-roll.

    • Remco Peereboom

      “Slow but steady”
      Completely agree on this one. Considering every unit gets to use it and its non reliant on character bubbles it sounds pretty good.

      I love to play small units like Multimelta Attack Bikes, they basically reroll everything for their melta’s now.

      Getting a extra shot and chance to wound from a unit of Missile or Lascannon Devastators is great.

      Also: you’re not spending CP’s on critical rerolls for your weapons anymore, so keeping them for really critical rerolls sounds great

      I’m really digging the Salamanders Tactics

  • Mike Tuchfarber

    Salamanders chapter tactic screams – “Take MSU with heavy weapons!”. Missile launchers, las cannons, multi-meltas? Spread them across the board, rather than clumping them around a IC. Also, not shabby for assault troops with a power fist or hammer.

    Considering this is “each time it shoots or fights” (assuming GW is using OR correctly here, open to some interpretation), that is a potential 4 re-rolls/squad/turn. That equates to a lot of CP. My boys from Nocturne are pretty darn excited.

    • solax636

      it says each so it should be both

      • Fergie0044

        It also says ‘or’ so i read that as pick one, not both.

        • Horus84cmd

          “You can reroll a single failed hit roll and a single failed wound roll made for a Salamander unit with this tactic each time it shoots or fights”

          How is this hard to understand? It states “each time”. Last time I check you don’t shoot and fight in at the same time. They’re separate phases. If I said to you: “you can eat a burger and chips each time you drive or run” I am not say its a either or choice as you can’t run and drive at the same time.

        • solax636

          why do you ignore the word each because it says or? come on – whatever the faction focus shows its every time gg

    • greenskin

      Reasonable minds may disagree, but I think this means that each unit with this tactic gets to re-roll 1 wound and 1 hit *either* each time it shoots OR fights. (otherwise it would read “each time it shoots AND fights”) So 2 re-rolls/squad/turn.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        You can’t Fight and Shoot at exactly the same time.

      • NNextremNN

        It says reroll hit and reroll wound and those doesn’t even have to be the same. If they shoot and fight that turn they can even do so for both.

      • Adam Sinclair

        yeah sorry mate but they’ve been very clear about how the rules are written this time. If they’d have wanted it to say either…then that word would’ve been in there.

        Im not a salamanders player but damn thats probably the best trait!

  • MechBattler

    Ok, DAYUM.
    Imperial Fists just flat out ignoring cover seems like the most powerful one on the list. Negating the cover bonus is just going to be plain nasty if the Fists come packing loads of high AP weapons. Plasma Fists for the win.

    • petrow84

      I’d also nominate their successor chapter’s tactic among the most potent ones. Re-rolling charge distances on deep striking terminators? YAY!

    • TenDM

      I don’t think Ignores Cover will be that big a deal once people start playing with proper cover rules. Now the unit has to be entirely within the terrain to get the bonus instead of working from line of sight we’re probably not going to see cover come into play as often with units moving across the table.

      • MechBattler

        It may be true that armies with large units that constantly move may not get the benefit of cover often, but armies with small units are another story.

        Take the new Primaris for example. They’re practically custom tailored to use the new cover system. Small units of resilient multi-wound models. I can easily see them camping in cover, blasting away with their extended range weapons, and getting 2+ saves all game long. Try dislodging primaris or gravis dudes from a ruin. They’re almost as tough as plague marines.

        Same thing with Tau Battlesuit units. Just three or four in a unit jumping from cover to cover and getting 2+ saves all the time. Ghostkeels nerf enemy’s to hot rolls by -1 within 3″ of it’s stealth drone. That’s +1 to it’s save, and -1 to shooting against it. Stealth Suits get those by default without a drone and have 2 wounds now.

        That +1 to cover is going to be a huge boon to armies that focus on small, tanky units.

  • Horus84cmd

    Frankly all these tactics are pretty nifty. You could go around in circles debating the pros and cons about which is best and worst. My personal favourite is the Imperial Fists tactic. They’re all viable options to use.

    • IronGryphon

      I disagree Horus. The Iron Hands’ tactic is about as useful as it was in 7th ed – essentially not worth anything at all. Relying on a 6 to save a marine is pointless. That is to say not worth relying on. I’m half-tempted to use Death Guard rules and claim them as IH, just so I too can have a 5+ ignore all wounds including Mortal Wounds.

      • Blackfel

        You’re making my Dark Eldar feel insecure about their Power from Pain. Please stop. I just got them to stop cutting themselves while they listen to My Chemical Romance….

        • Aurion Shidhe

          Why make them stop? Cut more, brothers and sisters! It will make you fight better!

        • Luca Lacchini

          Ahahahah, same field, and I’m both a Crimson Fists and a Dark Eldar player!

          But what I’ve seen so far in the fluff/crunch relation balance of 8th edition, I have very high hopes for their Codex (next year, possibly).

      • Horus84cmd

        Its far from pointless It may not be quite as effective as ‘disgusting resilience’ yet its certainly better than no chance at all. If your gaming groups happy for you to use Death Gused as pseudo Iron Hand, all the power to you; I’d rather have access to all the Space Marine arsenal that the extra point for ignoring wounds.

      • Fergie0044

        Give in to your temptation! join us on the 8 fold path!!!

    • ‘viable’ imo is quite an understatement. Some are a pretty hefty bonus.

    • matty199

      How is the imperial fist one even remotely usable?
      Its far harder to get cover in 8th, and buildings lol

      • Horus84cmd

        Its not that much harder to get cover for your unit. A unit is either wholly within the terrain or its not. People just need to adjust their tactics to make sure they are fully within terrain. People also need to play 40K with the level of terrain its intended to be played with.

  • piglette

    Iron Hands 6+ FNP is pretty boring 😒

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Blocks mortal wounds and is always useful.

      Imperial fists’ tactic is good unless you are fighting MEQs and so negating a +1 to their save is pretty meh.

  • Callum Rae

    So imperial firsts are iron warriors now?

    • Horus84cmd

      Always have been. The two are Yin and yang to each other. Both brilliant at building fortification’s and tearing them down. Iron warriors a little better at the tearing and the imperial fist better at the building.

      • Callum Rae

        Aye exactly, but no longer according to the new firsts rules. Just a bitter iron warriors player here :).

        • Horus84cmd

          Haha. I’m sure iron warriors will get just as nice treatment come the chaos codex.

      • Aurion Shidhe

        I agree with you.

        Wasn’t that the point of the Iron Cage? The Iron Warriors prepared their defenses and the Imperial Fists assaulted them. Likely both legions would have been mutually annihilated if the Ultramarines hadn’t intervened.

        • Crevab

          The point of the Iron Cage was Perturabo saying “I bet you can’t get through this maze to my castle.”
          To which Dorn replied “F*ck you, I’ll fill it with the corpses of my own men and walk across.”

          And then the castle was a bomb

          • Aurion Shidhe

            LOL. Good point!

            But I still think that the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists were pretty much both sides of the same coin. That was what they rivalry was all about. Two brothers with the same role in their dad’s plan.

            All about the base; whether attacking or defending. The IF just cleaned the bathrooms more regularly so dad let them tend to his house.

    • Nyyppä

      My thoughts exactly.

    • Commissar Molotov

      You all deserve a Yellow ‘Fisting.

  • Hendrik Booraem VI

    Iron Hands is my favorite. 6+ FNP is always doing work, and it works vs mortal wounds now, where it didn’t work vs. Instant Death before. Double saves for each model? Yes, please.

    • Hendrik Booraem VI

      Looking at it again, GW seems to have mixed up “damage” and “wound” again. The way the IH chapter tactic is written, you could make the case that each individual wound gets a FNP save. So, a shot hits, causes 4 damage, the model loses 4 wounds, gets 4 FNP saves.

      Unless somewhere they’ve clarified the difference between “a wound that causes multiple points of damage” and “a wound that causes a single point of damage.”

      • Horus84cmd

        All the wound ignoring abilities are on the final amount of wounds i.e. after damage has be rolled. It’s in one of the faqs.

        • Kraxis

          Which FAQ is that in? I never saw it.

          • Horus84cmd

            Main rulebook I think. There’s a question regarding disgusting resilience and mortal wound. The answer says “abilities such as disgusting resilience… also used against mortal wound (sic)”

          • Kraxis

            Yeah I read that part too. But it says it can be used against mortal wounds.

            It doesn’t say anything about using it against each individual wound inflicted for failing a save.
            Ex: A beast of nurgle gets hit with a lascannon, fails the invul save and takes 4 wounds, it wouldn’t get 4 disgustingly resilient saves, just the 1 after the initial failed invul save.

          • Horus84cmd

            It’s in one of them. To be fair it’s part of the core rules that you roll damage to work out the final tally of wounds. Abilities such as DR only work once wounds have been caused i.e. after armour saves. For example a lascanon doesn’t do nessarcerly do 1 wound it has the chance to do d6.

          • Kraxis

            Hmmm yeah I think you’re right from the way it’s worded. “Each time this model loses a wound, roll a D6; on a roll of a 5 or 6 it does not lose that wound”

            Question is, if a plague marine is hit by a lascannon that does 3 wounds, does that mean he has to roll 3 Disgust Res rolls or just 1?

          • Horus84cmd

            3 time’s as the model has taken a finally tally of 3 wounds.

          • Kraxis

            Well I guess the days or Plague Marines shrugging off a lascannon or the like are numbered.

          • Hendrik Booraem VI
          • Hendrik Booraem VI

            Aha, Designers Commentary, yes, you can roll FNP against each individual point of damage:

            Q: When rolling for abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient’ or ‘Tenacious Survivor’ against attacks which inflict multiple wounds, do you roll to ignore
            each individual wound inflicted by the attack, or do you roll only once to ignore all the wounds inflicted by the attack?
            A: Roll to avoid each wound lost separately.
            For example, if a model with Disgustingly Resilient fails its saving throw against an attack made by a thunder hammer (Damage 3), you would roll three dice and for each result of 5+ you would ignore a single wound.

          • Horus84cmd

            Knew it was in one of them. 🙂

      • Nyyppä

        Fnp works like that now….

  • jmaximum

    So the Ultra rule: is that subtract 1 from their TO HIT rolls, are does that mean subtract one die from the pile if it’s a hit

    • Nyyppä

      Obvously not. The same thing happens when you move and shoot a heavy weapon.

  • ZeeLobby

    Eh. They’ll be the 1/2 that people take, and the rest will be in the meh category. I mean it’s nice to have the chapter flavor, but some people seem to be clamoring that it’s revolutionary and everything is good.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      They are all useful and less gimmicky than last time.

  • georgelabour

    So just to double check. But the iron hands ability would work even on Mortal wounds right?

    it’s after all not a save, and is done after the wound is lost.

    Also(to lazy to go double check the book), if a weapon does d# damage do you roll for each wound or the original wound and ignore the extra damage it inflicts?

    • Horus84cmd

      Yes to the first bit. No to the second. Say you’re shot by a lasconnon, which does d6 damage. If that lasconnon shot damage results in 4 wound’s, you’d need to make a roll to ignore each one.

      • georgelabour

        Thought so. But that seemed like a good place to bring it up since it’s going to be a common question for these kind of non-save saves.

  • Slackermagee

    Salamanders have plasmas that will probably never kill their bearers on overheat mode, rereoll to wound with said plasma, and then reroll a hit and a wound with the powerfist in CC. That’s bonkers.

  • Kevin Maloney

    So just as before, White Scars have one of the most powerful chapter tactics. Surprise surprise. I must say, though, Ultramarines, Raven Guard and Imperial Fists are all looking pretty decent.

  • Brett Kirk

    White Scars need those good chapter tactics to make up for their inferior gene-seed and dumb mustaches. Me playing Raven Guard has absolutely nothing to do with this opinion

  • Tushan

    Salamanders:

    Rerolling a single “failed” to hit roll..

    What is “failed” for flamers? Does that mean a flamer can reroll its to hit roll?

    • Horus84cmd

      Well….since they automatically hit….and therefore can never fail…I’m thinking….

      • Crevab

        whoa

      • NNextremNN

        Yeah I think you can only reroll a single failed wound from your flamer but not the hit roll because like you said that one can’t fail.

      • Tushan

        Or your plasma cannon rolled a “1” for hits, can you reroll?

        • Horus84cmd

          Yes.

  • Randy Randalman

    You’re insane to make assumptions this early. We don’t know what detachments and restrictions there will be, which strategems each chapter can/can’t use, what the relics and command traits will be, etc. Plus, that Salamanders one is absurdly good looking out of the gates. It’s better than any they’ve had before, but isn’t restricted to a weapon type.

  • Commissar Molotov

    Dammit, Rogal Dorn’s boys get to hold the line without getting any cool s*** YET AGAIN.

    • Parthis

      … Really? The IF one is great. Also wait for relics, traits and Stratagems, and have a little faith.

      • Commissar Molotov

        It’s a long, long way from “great.”

  • The Imp Fist one… does that mean melee AND shooting attacks? Because denying cover entirely sounds rather huge to me.

    • greenskin

      it says “against attacks”, which would seem to include melee attacks.

      • Well, my question was if that means melee and shooting and you tell me it includes melee. But does it include shooting too? I guess so, but in that case I think that’s just ridiculously powerful.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          But how many people mainboard Buildings?

          • I didn’t talk about buildings, but about the cover-part.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            It’s powerful, yes, but locking Fists in Combat is the easiest way to counteract it. It’s funny that DE Reavers are still better at Hit and Run than Scars.

    • 40DollarOnion

      Considering Cover has no impact on melee… I’m going to go out on a limb and say yes it applies to shooting attacks as well… more specifically only to shooting attacks… again because you don’t get a cover bonus to your save in the fight phaze

  • NNextremNN

    I like that fact that if you read through all discussions every tactic seems to be favoured by someone.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Eh, they better wow us with Chapter Strategems, or I’ll be a little cross.

  • Tshiva keln

    White scars, raven guard and Ultramarines seem better at first because they let you build fluffy armies and get a tactical bonus. But in reality, the best ones are iron hands and salamanders. Ignoring wounds is much rarer and super powerful in this edition and salamanders is excellent. With split fire proper tactical squad are back and while any reroll is powerful, on your key weapon it is a big deal. How often does that key melts shot miss/not wound? Free reroll. Even on a lowly bolter it’s extra wounds , how is that not good?

    • Simon Bates

      I agree, I don’t know if you can really say these are all about equal, but they are certainly all useful. The two you don’t mention – IF and BT can have sizeable implications too. Re-rolling charges makes long range charges much more viable, which makes charging from reserves or outside flamer range much less risky. You’ll still fail sometimes, but even the threat of it may force your opponent to play more defensively. Ignoring cover is more situational than most of these, but will almost always be useful.

      In all cases these rules give players more reasons to take infantry, bikers and dreadnoughts, which seems like a good thing.

  • Jason

    I assume Crimson Fists would still use Imp Fist tactics? If so, I’m down with this 🙂

    • Horus84cmd

      Yes. Successor chapter use their founding chapters Tactic. The exception (so far) to this is the Black Templars who have been give their own – presumably because they been treated as fairly unique since they were supported with specific kits. I can foresee FW giving Red Scorpions their own. Also I would imagine that some of the Space Wolves Companies and Blood/Dark Angels Successors to also get their own.

  • MarcoT

    Reading this discussion I think I’ve seen every Tactic labelled both the best and the worst, so it’s probably balanced. Good job GW.

  • GravesDisease

    “Salamanders – Master Artisans”

    Bloody hipsters.

    • Deathwing

      They make weapons of war not craft beer and new weed strains lol

  • ieyke

    People whining about the Iron Hands getting an extra 16.5% Wounds is insane.
    As far as I can tell, that’s every tank, every Dreadnought, every bike, every flyer…..

    Even aside from applying to every unit, that’s BETTER than in Invulnerable Save, isn’t it?
    Inv Saves save against an attack and the you suffer however many wounds the Damage says, right?
    This is a save against EACH INDIVIDUAL WOUND.

    • Horus84cmd

      Unless otherwise noted in the Tactic itself, Chapter Tactics only apply to units with keywords: Infantry, Biker and Dreadnaughts. This was mentioned in a the WH-Com Twitch game.

  • Xodis

    I love how there is a crowd for each ability saying it sucks. Guess they all suck or none of them suck lol.

    I think the IH ability is “lame” to steal from Nurgle, but meh.

  • highwind

    Cant really agree on the evaluation…

    – Ultramarines is completely worthless if your enemy doesnt get into melee… and that isnt unlikely at all!

    – Raven Guard is dimished very much vs enemys that focus on melee but it IS strong vs shooting enemys, no doubt

    – Imperial Fists is pure b*llsh*t because its not only dependable on the enemy but also on the terrain and finally it is the weakest rule overall because of the stupid cover rules… it is also totally unfluffly as Imperial Fists are masters of holding sieges, not breaking them!

    – White Scars is solid because you can tailor your own army around it

    – Black Templars is solid aswell for the same reason

    – Salamanders is solid aswell but easily underrated… just make yourself aware, it is one hit and one wound roll for every single unit in every single turn. It is huge for strong single shot weapons in small units (like melta, multi melta, lascannon etc. in tactical squads)

    • Jabberwokk

      Yeah. I’m finding accuracy to be hugely important this edition so i like the salamander’s buff.

      • highwind

        exactly

        its also nice because you are much less dependant on character bubbles which means you can
        a) spread out your troops much better
        b) safe points on those characters

        Just take that uber-strong Bray’arth Ashmantle guy from Forgeworld as HQ and Warlord and fill your points with MSU

    • Xodis

      Imperial Fists were the BEST at holding Sieges…there were only second to Iron Warrior for breaking them, making them the Best in the Loyalist forces. Knowing how to prevent a Siege from breaking also means knowing all its weakest points so it makes total sense.

      • highwind

        So how about giving them a rule which emphasizes on what they do best rather on what you do second best?!

        another +1 to their armor saves for being in cover would be more “fluffy” and would also be more in line in terms of strenght compared to the other chapter tactics

        • Xodis

          Because they are still the best in the Imperium, being slightly worst at siege breaking than the Iron Warriors isn’t anything to dismiss.

          +1 cover isn’t that much better at being “fluffy” because stopping the break of a siege isn’t just not getting shot, but countering siege tactics.

      • Dan Wilson

        I would happily stick with rerolls on all bolter based weapons. Maybe rerolls of 1 if that seems OP.

        • Xodis

          Rerolls of Bolter weapons may be too OP with the new Bolt Rifles….but otherwise I would say its a neat alternative. Bolt weapons have always been good, but its not like its a Plasma weapon or something lol

  • blackbloodshaman

    And the Imperial Fists get shafted yet again

  • Matthew Barnhart

    I have a question. Are these tactics active for the entire game?