Editorial: GW Doesn’t Need To Listen To Us

 

GW1

How many times have you heard or read that GW doesn’t listen to their customers? And your point is what?  Face the fact…GW doesn’t NEED to listen to us.  Here are some reasons why.

 

Reason #1:  There is no unified voice sending a message.  Every time I read the responses to a blog post regarding rules changes, pricing, new product, e.g., there is always a diverse response.  Many support new product pricing thinking it is reasonable; others think the product is overpriced and say they won’t buy it.  New codices releases are another example.  Take that new Eldar tome.  Already the pro-D/anti-D argument is alive and well; the meta is broken now…no, things will be just fine.  That doesn’t included the normal reaction to any new codex; overpowered vs. impotent.   Even commentary regarding GW corporate decisions like release schedules, new editions of rules and 30K/40K crossover.  There is ample rhetoric on either side of any argument in support of or opposing anything new.  So I try to put myself in the seat of a GW exec.  I see that there is no consensus regarding what I just decided to do in regards to product.  I also see that the new product/rule change/pricing has created positive revenue.  This is not a difficult choice for me.  I keep doing what I’m doing and keep making money for the company.

GW2

Reason #2:  GW is the 400 kilo Gorilla in the room.  Compared to any competitor in the tabletop minatures market, GW is by far the largest, both in terms of financial and on the ground presence. The sales they make from a single limited edition of anything are enormous compared to comparable overall sales of many of the competition.  Moreover, that same corporate wonk in the previous example knows this.  They don’t care if some other company had sales growth of 200% last year.  That’s because their 200% sales growth represents 0.1% of market share to GW.  Including all of their diverse offerings (Forge World and Black Library), GW is the dominant force in tabletop gaming; this is just the undisputable truth.  Although I am sure there are those on this forum who will disagree…making the corporate wonks in Nottingham chuckle that much harder.

GW3

Reason #3:  GW is diverse.  40K, WFB (in whatever new iteration is appears), LOTR (in whatever form it survives…IF it survives), Black Library, Forge World.  Smaller competitors cannot, at least at this point, offer the diverse range of product that GW can.  I am a good example of this.  Even though I recently took a break from the 40K tabletop aspect of the hobby, I will continue to purchase books (dead tree, digital and audio versions) that keep me connected to the Grimdark of both 40K and WFB…I am a Gortrek and Felix fan as well.  Does GW care that much that I won’t be spending $60 to buy a transport for my army?  Not if they know I will still spend $80 on books this month.  I might even throw down some hard earned cash for some awesome Forge World model that I fancy.  They have plenty of ways to keep me in the revenue cycle; not so with their competition.

GW5

Reason #4:  GW is everywhere.  Although related to #3 above, I think this is worth mentioning separately.   Ever played a 40K/WFB related video game?  Planning to buy one if it comes out in the future?  How about a 40K computer game?  Anyone ever play the Relic board game or Conquest LCG, both by Fantasy Flight but licensed by GW?  I am guilty on all accounts.  The long arm of Games Workshop reaches far beyond tabletop gaming and modeling.  The vast nature of the GW presence is a wise and prudent move on the part of those who make decisions for this company.  Once again, they don’t really care if we are not spending money on their plastic soldiers, as long as we spend money on their products.

Big Brother 11

Reason #5:  Even if they fail (financially), they will still live on.  They remind me of Old One Eye, the legendary carnifex of Tyranid fame. Reportedly killed, stories of his continued presence are rampant.  However unlikely, so it would go with Games Workshop.  There are many sharks in the market niche that GW occupies, and if they ever did fail financially, someone would acquire their assets and the show would go on.  Very likely not in the same way that it has, but most of the elements we see today would still be there.  Moreover, if their replacement were to stop the printing of games like Relic or Conquest, they would simply become “classics” in my board game library and live on forever, like my friend Old One Eye.  All of this, of course, assumes that GW is driving down the road to financial ruin.  But frankly, how long have we been hearing that tired old fairy tale?

GW6

Games Workshop is, after all, a large corporation that makes and sells products.  How many people leave the hobby, the demographics of those new to it, how those in the hobby feel about changes…none of this matters to that corporation if they can pay their share holders a dividend and keep making money.  This is the reality outside of our fantasy.

Do you think Games Workshop values our opinions and reacts to them, or just sits back and keeps making decisions from on high in stately Nottingham?

 

  • Albert (40k-heresy blog)

    Not listening to customers is one of the worse things any company can do. GW is no different

    • Shawn Pero

      They do listen to their customers, just not on the level of product development or business strategy (because duh). They have a very Apple-like approach to their company, in that they provide amazing customer service and communication on a personal level while doing exactly their own thing on a business level. It’s been making them have a very decent comeback over the past year, with the advent of 7th.

      • SacTownBrian

        They just don’t listen to BoLS. Vote on what you like with your wallet because they listen to that.

        • amaximus167

          That is what I have been doing. I still buy an odd bit or kit here and there for modelling projects, but the hundreds of dollars I would spend on armies is no longer for them.

        • jonathan beatty

          Well I am voting with my wallet. I am not buying GW products any more for a number of reasons. One is definitely the horrible PR. Apple has one of the best PR in the world for businesses but GW lacks that in more ways than you can count. Apple informs their customers as to what is happening and has previews of upcoming products and the ability to test their products before purchase. So no, GW is nothing like Apple.

          But over all I don’t like the direction the game is going at all. It is losing its tactical feel, well it lost it a while ago, and is more about the toys you bring, not how you move them. In fantasy they wiped out the world storyline completely and went a very very dark direction where as an adult I find it too juvenile for my taste. I want a good story to play with, not something more like A House of a Thousand Corpses, which I hated with a passion.

          So I am moving on to games with a more grownup feel to the storyline.

          GW is not going to be the 1000 pound Gorilla for much longer, and if FFG doesn’t buy them out in the next 8 years I will be surprised.

        • Wolfsark

          We voted with our wallets on things like vipers, possessed marines and tomb blades then they forced us to buy them to get the new benefits.

      • Albert (40k-heresy blog)

        I hear what you’re saying. I think having a great customer service is not the same as listening to customers. The latter implies that you proactively reach out to your customers to find out what drives them, what are their needs and pain points, and that actions are taken as a result. If we are to believe GW’s former CEO words, they don’t do this at all. I personally find it difficult to believe, and there has to be some customer feedback, albeit small, that they collect

      • daboarder

        actually, no, they listen to their customer on NO level. So much so that they brag about doing no market research, thats insane.

    • Jason C

      GW listens to what the community says. Then they very wisely ignore it. Let’s be honest with ourselves, we have a difficult community that is never satisfied with anything.
      Henry Ford famously said, “If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse.”

      • Secundum

        This. So much.

      • Albert (40k-heresy blog)

        The big question is if they listen to customers – obviously they can decide whether to do something or not. But refusing outright to understand how they feel is a terrible business practice

        • vonDietdrich

          A business practice that GW has proudly proclaimed they partake in. Unless the new guy has decided to do market research, their design team only interacts with a very small handful of people who can make their opinion of the game known.

        • Zingbaby

          Which customers should they listen to now?

          This community cannot literally agree on ANYTHING. — that I believe was the crux of this article.

          • Adam Murray

            I disagree!

          • Chaosrex

            any one agrees that D weapons should be Apoc only and that codex creep is stupid, or that the prices are to high, either doing cocaine or doing the hobby, you cannot do both…

          • Zingbaby

            Whoa Whoa… you can totally do cocaine AND the hobby.

            And as has been the case for every edition – if you play against jagoffs, the game is no fun. Don’t play against jagoffs.

            I’d much rather face a single (D strength) Wraithknight – or the new Eldar (lite-D) wielded by a reasonable human being… than the new jetbike spam jagoff list or the old waveserpent spam jagoff list.

      • Kaptin J

        He also famously said: “Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.” Which is the other extreme, this paved the way for competitors to gain a foothold, and while it was done for production reasons, the way he went about it killed loyalty to Ford.

      • I don’t agree with this at all. Making a nice, balanced game does not alienate or eliminate the casual/hobby crowd at all. Making a crappy, poorly designed game that cares nothing for balanced gameplay keeps the gamers away. If they only cared about the game they’re designing, they would have both parties.

        • Zingbaby

          And who gets to decide what is nice and balanced? …you? Blogs like BOLS that push a certain type of play-style because they make money running tournaments?

          • If you knew anything about my gaming background or what I do professionally, you might be surprised if I gave you a straight answer.

            They can start by hiring a community manager or designer with a speciality in balance. Other, more modern game companies such as PP, FFG, Spartan, Hawk, all have designers who are very much intune with the community, the tournament scene, the metagame, and the general health of the game.

            Experimental rules is a thing, alpha and beta rules are a thing. PP run testbeds in mini-campaigns all the time to test out rules all the time. GW just lives under a damn rock and have none of these modern ideologies. The community of gamers want to be involved and test out rules and provide feedback (good and bad). There’s just no place to do so.

            I don’t really care though man, not anymore. I’ve been with GW games for 14 years and they haven’t changed, in fact, in some cases they got worse. With their mission statement specifically calling out that they’re a collectibles company and not a gaming company, that’s just a big spit in the face for all their loyal gamers out there. The second you attach rules to your models, you become a gaming company whether you like it or not. It’s up to you to make it better and keep it healthy, and they haven’t been doing a good job with that. All the other companies I listed above are running circles around them in terms of rules development and actually knowing what their community wants, because they actually listen, and have taken action to make the game better. They actually understand that making the rules better do nothing for the casual player, the hobbiest or the painter, and that it only affects the player. GW does not, and for that reason, they will never be as successful as they might be.

          • Zingbaby

            So that part of the community (the customers) that are currently HAPPY with the game… are they just wrong; and it’s THEM that GW should ignore?

            This community literally cannot agree on ANYTHING. By it’s nature it’s an entitled and entirely ridiculous customer base to please; but the point is they are not, have not, ever been unified in what they desire.

            Some of these smaller games that are starting from scratch with strong online communities might be doing things very right – by that cannot work for GW now.

          • The part of the community that are happy with the state of the game are not wrong, they could possibly care less. I think you’re missing the picture I’m trying to draw here. I’m saying that those players, the customers you’re talking that are happy with the game, will be just as happy if not happier if the game was even more balanced. Everyone should feel that their books are excellent and have a chance. That’s not the case now nor has it ever been the case in 14 years. The only people who’s fault this lines in is not the consumer, it’s the designers.

          • Zingbaby

            You CANNOT make that claim. You simply cannot, regardless of who you think you are or whatever other game industry you might be involved in.

            Some people, the people NOT here complaining everyday, because they don’t need to, are happy with the balance as it is NOW – because it also provides a LOT of freedom. I do however concede that in the hands of a total jaggoff (which this community has a large percentage of) – 40K can be broken and made unfun for some people. And those people not having fun, complain here (for 20+ years despite nothing changing in their favor) or they leave – but still worldwide, there are people that love and support the game as it currently is.

            That is generally why we have 200+ comment ‘arguments’ on BOLS on almost a daily basis. People like you THINK you know what’s best for everyone, but you don’t.

          • Yes I can, and I shall because I have the data the proves you have no idea what you’re talking about. Of course I can’t outright disclose this data, but I can guide you along.

            The casual gamer, can care less about the direction, health and state of the game because they don’t have enough working knowledge. Most casual gamers also post on online forums such as this, as only the tiny population of gamers are hardcore enough to register and be avidly involved in online participation (blogs, forums, and even social media). It represents a fraction of the gaming population, and it differs from game to game.

            Regardless of the population of the casual gamers, they don’t post in these threads because they don’t care. They don’t care because they genuinely do not care about the direction the game company takes for the game. If they don’t care about this, why would you think they would care if the company improves the game and makes it more balanced and fun? Would they even notice? The answer is no, and that’s because their focus is not in the gameplay aspect of the hobby, but into modeling, painting and what have you.

            Do you think top gaming companies are unaware of this fact? That casual gamers represents the largest percentage of players and almost none of them are voicing their opinions online and on forums such as this? No, of course not, because we’re not stupid. We know from basic human psychology that if you take away a painter’s paintbrush, he will be upset. On a less drastic notion, if you make a tiny pose differential to a modeler’s model and he will be upset. But will the painter next to the notice? Most likely not. Do the same with gamers as a social experimentation? We have, and for over decades. Not just one company, but almost all gaming-related companies in both video, social, sports and table-top. Casual gamers are simply not aware about high level changes that specific address balance concerns or metagame health because they simply do not have enough working knowledge of the matter to truly analyze or care.

            So despite the amount of caps you use, or how big you’re trying to sound, I’m flat out telling you you have no professional knowledge, no data or any credible source that can speak on your behalf. Unless, of course, you are in another group of people that make sweeping, overly-generalizing comments that have absolutely no merit. Those are truly the people that get nothing done because they are ignored.

          • Zingbaby

            I also have some top secret data that I cannot share that proves you wrong.

            But let me stop you on this: “The casual gamer, can care less about the direction, health and state of
            the game because they don’t have enough working knowledge.”

            More than anything else you’ve said this proves that YOU have no idea what you are talking about.

            Further you don’t seem to understand that the “health and state” of the game are entirely subjective. Should my all dreadnought list be ‘balanced’ to your wraithknight spam? …or should I be FORCED to play with different models because of YOUR idea of balance?

            Must I now play all ‘chess’ style perfectly equal versus perfectly equal “balanced tournament style” games all the time because YOU think it’s what everyone wants? …what about when choose to play narrative missions where one side is facing near unbeatable odds or any other type of ‘narrative’ storyline. Your ‘data’ doesn’t mean jack-sh8T because 40k is a unique animal, and some people LIKE it that way, even though you think you can fix it for them – you can’t.

          • Considering it isn’t subjective, because professionals in their field are able to give us the data we need to make the “right” adjustments. We don’t need to be “right” all the time, but at least we understand that 295 point Wraithknights are not healthy to the metagame compared to everything else.

            You just type too much nonsense for me to have a real conversation with you. The amount of large capped words for emphasis actually does not make your points any clearer.

            You’re pretty much saying that a casual gamer, or someone who plays very rarely, have as much insight into the game on a top level as professional players. I mean, that’s borderline insane. It would be like asking a gardener to do my taxes. But yes, please continue with this logic on the next person who cares. I’m done here.

          • Zingbaby

            Name me ONE game that has ever made all the “right” adjustments and made everyone happy because of the data?

            You clearly have a low opinion of ‘casual’ gamers which is entirely why you cannot speak for them.

          • Zingbaby

            Dude – it’s so simple. The casual gamers, the narrative gamers, the middle of the road gamers, the painters, the casual tournament gamers, and the so-called “professional players” do NOT all want the same thing. They don’t… they prove that here EVERYDAY despite whatever bs data you think you have.

            I can tell you personally I know the game, I play regularly, and I don’t want to play the same game that the Frontline kids play. If TO’s “balance” the wraithknight I still don’t want to play the game they play.

          • Zingbaby

            Your entire opinion is based on the idea that ‘casual’ gamers don’t care – and don’t know enough – but if they could just listen to you, they’d see that you’re right and they are wrong – because of all your data.

            It’s all total BS dude; casual gamers don’t just paint. 40k is GREAT for narrative play, because of it’s open-ness (what you and folks on these forums call imbalance) – but narrative play does not mean – ‘lack of understanding’ or ‘lack of caring’ …your opinion is wrong and even insulting.

          • And your assumption that balance, means taking away fun, and imposing limitations.

            The only thing that’s insulting here is your intelligence.

          • Zingbaby

            Hah well now I think it’s pretty clear you are entirely full of crap. The idea that “professional players” know what EVERYONE should want better than “casual” players because ‘they play more’ is simply retarted, entirely unprovable – and again – why everyday people argue about 40K.

          • Zingbaby

            Further I’ve NEVER insinuated “that balance, means taking away fun, and imposing limitations.” I just said, repeatedly because you are quite thick – that YOU don’t know what everyone wants.

          • daboarder

            HERO, its zing, he thinks GW sh*ts rainbows and happiness. he’s never going to grasp that those who are “Currently” happy would likely also be happy with a more balanced rules set (excluding the “that guy”s)

          • Zingbaby

            Oh your mom let you use the computer again daboarder? …it’s too bad even that couldn’t bring you any happiness.

            This guy’s “argument” was total crap. I’ve _never_ been against “balance” – but to say that “professional” 40k players ‘know best’ and should dictate what is “balanced” is a bad start. He doesn’t account for “narrative” gamers in his so-called “data”, and they make up a huge percentage of the community; further his claim that “casual” gamers simply just don’t ‘know enough’ to make decisions is based on nothing but personal bias.

            But I don’t expect you to contribute anything but misery and hate because you are a miserable, hateful person and it must be awful for you.

          • daboarder

            awww poor wittle baby cant handle criticism.

          • Zingbaby

            Classic… you “criticize” my reading but then miss Hero’s point about “professional” players entirely… it must be tough to see the computer screen with all of the Burger King bags piled up around you.

            As I’ve said many times before (Maybe you forgot)… I have nothing against balance and I’ve never said, “ballance = less options”. But I sure as hell know that letting the so-called “professional” players dictate the rules, because they “know better than the casual players” is horse-sh*t. Regardless of their best intention(s), some people, a lot of people, narrative players – don’t want the ‘chess match’ of a perfectly “balanced tournament game” …they want the one-sided uphill battles and thematic narrative gameplay. For example tournament players universally panned Planet-strike but it’s great for narrative play. Some folks love Unbound and Apocalypse as well…

            Further when you discount the outrageous WAAC builds and total spam jagoff lists (like always!), the codex are still better balanced as a whole, than they’ve probably ever been.

            I know it’s hard for you to believe people are happy (with anything probably), being such a miserable person yourself, but some folks don’t want “professional” 40k players to ‘fix’ the game. And that’s exactly why this and other posts have 200+ comments on a regular basis.

          • Brettila

            Chill out, Butch Reed. Uphill, no-chance battles are all good and well, provided that both players are SEEKING it. Your codex being a complete pile of donkey schtuff should not be the reason for such games. Ask Dark Angel players (and others) about how fun it is to be shredded by turn 2 or 3.

          • Zingbaby

            Butch Reed, wow props for a great reference …but you’re missing the point really. It wasn’t entirely about uphill battles, and nobody said anything about no-chance battles; it’s about narrative themed games – as opposed to the ‘chess match’ tournament game. 40K is really the best suited miniature game for narrative play there is. No actual war has 2 perfectly even armies, on a perfectly even battleground, with perfectly even objectives; that’s chess not war.

            I get your point though, and I do also personally wish Dark Angels had more, better, options; but realistically all of the codex as a whole ARE more balanced than they’ve ever been. This Eldar codex might be a whole different level for competitive play, but for themed (Aspect Warrior) armies it’s looking really nice.

          • Brettila

            I am completely a narrative player. I would be forced to strangle most tournament monkeys with their own tape measures. I am still waiting for people to fear my Chaos army again. “Some – where, over-the-rain – bow, wayyyy – up – high…”

          • Zingbaby

            Hah well you could add FW, the new chaos stuff is awesome.

          • Zingbaby

            And this whole tired argument thread was about Hero’s assertion that “professional” 40k players “know better” and should dictate the rules.

            History has proven repeatedly that the “professional” tournament crowd have almost always been wrong with their knee-jerk reactions.

            Maelstrom of war (a great balancer to 40k) caused the biggest Sky is Falling freakout and was immediately banned by the ‘pros’ but now it’s a part of most major tournaments because – it’s totally awesome.

          • daboarder

            yeah you tell me zing, so harsh

          • dvs0ne

            Why are even having this discussion? I thought hero rage quit 40k as well as everything else gw makes several times over the past few codexes and end times lol. And for some reason you keep coming back. ….

          • Zingbaby

            And another thing narrative gamers (not the same as ‘casual’) make up a large percentage of the 40k base. You’ve completely discounted them in your “data”…

            My group for example we get together every weekend in each others’ homes to play narrative games. As far as I know there is no place on earth with “professional 40k” events every weekend.

          • Brettila

            Remember when they had Outriders? Not too long ago there were people around the world that quietly playtested stuff before it was published. A friend of mine was one who tested the Tau before they came out. Now, however, we can all go hang apparently.

          • ClownBabyROK

            LOL make money running tournaments? What planet are you living on?

          • Zingbaby

            Just because they’re not successful doesn’t make it any less true… perhaps they could learn something from GW haha.

          • el_tigre

            Had to scroll for like a minute past you nerds arguing about nothing just to get to the next comment. Get a room already.

          • Brettila

            Feast of Blades makes some money. People pay outrageous prices to play the games they play every week, plus entry fees. It was more than $100 to play a 40K tournament; which I find ridiculous. To top it off, you apparently win a kick to the nibblets for your effort if you win.
            I go to other conventions in Denver, and I know the hotel space isn’t THAT much. Thus, someone is making money running tournies.

      • LordKrungharr

        a faster horse…made of titanium and carbon fiber, and runs on my own poop and pee.

    • wibbling

      Have you read the article? People want different things. I want plastic greater daemons. I don’t play fantasy but I have bought all the end times books.

      Why? Because they’re bloomin’ brilliant.

  • Commissar Molotov

    Dan needs to go check out a Sears or K-Mart to see how inane his argument is…

    If he can find one that’s still open.

    • Shawn Pero

      Apples and oranges. Sears and K-mart are both still open (there’s several of each in my area), but they’ve been facing competition from companies that can afford to give it to them, like Target and Wal-Mart. The closest thing GW has is PP, and GW is still much bigger in terms of licensing. The article is basically spot on, as it’s being looked at from a purely business-oriented perspective.

      • Warrior_of_Sound

        I dunno, i think the contract/expanse/contract style of K-mart/Sears while bolstering websales is kind of a good broader metaphor for GW situation enough, but yes a friend of mine works a K-mart he says most days during crunchtime the place is over-run, long lines, everything youde expect from the good ole days of K-mart’s reign as Top-Box. But that said he’s also certain theyve been helping keep afloat the other two locations in his county

      • Commissar Molotov

        Several of each in your area? Where do you live, 1995?

        • jonathon

          Calgary, Alberta, Canada doesn’t have any K-marts, but we do have several sears locations.

        • Marcustigelinus

          There’s still nearly a thousand K-marts and a thousand Sears still open.

        • Shawn

          Florida Panhandle.

      • Charon

        In fact GW competes with everything that wants my “hobby money” and my spare time.

    • RIP blue spotlight specials.

    • Sean Ireland

      Or IBM.

    • Shawn

      Hey Commisar, I know of two K-marts that are open in my area. One to the south of the town I live in and the other in a town west of where I live. And K-mart is owned by Sears. Bailed them out of bankruptcy a few years back.

  • Warrior_of_Sound

    I think they listen to our ideas that make them money and dont listen to the ideas they cant make money off of. not sure whats so confusing. Im happy for the half we get

  • Damon Sherman

    Corporate apologist.

    • Nate

      Says the vocal minority

      • Damon Sherman
        • Nate

          GW isn’t the bad guy the haters make them out to be. They have great products, good rules, fun games, comparable prices and the best customer service in the industry. All the other systems everyone cites as being better have flaws too or are way smaller scale and simpler.

          • alex luthor

            I wasn’t sure if you were joking until I got to “best customer service in the industry” then I knew you were having a laugh.

          • Damon Sherman

            well, if you haven’t played any games other than GW, I can see how hard it is to see it’s flaws.
            I baled out during 5th edition mostly because of the overreaction to the blandness of 4th by making everything feel “EXTREME” and “GRITTY” with most of Matt Wards books. But, really, I realized they’ll never really fix anything. They might tweak a rule here or there, but they usually “fix” with one hand, and break with the other.
            3rd edition, rhino rush. Every army became too reliant of Assault.
            4th edition, rhino’s suck, but infantry shooting became way better. and mechanized assault armies were nerfed to hell.
            5th edition, parking lot. Made vehicles better to the point where they became mobile bunkers. etc etc…

      • Looks like the minority you claim is vocal is actually the majority, judging by the upvotes.

        • Zingbaby

          On a tournament blog that is run by folks who make money running tournaments.

          A few ‘upvotes’ here are less indicative of the community at large than ‘likes’ for racists facebook comments.

          • Continue to downplay everything. You probably won’t even notice the sky is falling.

          • Zingbaby

            Haha …yeah true; the Sky has been Falling in 40K for _only_ 20+ years now.

            But yeah, I think it’s safe to assume that “12 upvotes = majority of 40k gamers worldwide” is just some crazy “downplay”.

          • That’s not true, I played for 20 years. I’d say it was the last 5 to 10.

          • Zingbaby

            I’ve played since Rogue Trader… and the change from 2nd to 3rd edition was world ending for a lot of game nerds; as was 3rd to 4th. The online community, for obvious reasons, was not like it is now however.

            My last post has 2 more “upvotes” than yours… so by your reasoning, the majority of the 40k community agrees with me.

          • I did’t feel that way about 3rd – I thought it was exactly what 40k needed after 6 years of 2nd Edition zaniness.

            Don’t worry, those guys will see the light soon enough.

  • Blackfel

    The simple truth is, money talks. All of the internet love or hate in the world means nothing to GW. The only thing that matters is whether a book/model/game is selling or not. If it is, they’re doing something right. If it isn’t, then it’s time to fix it.

    There’s a reason why something that was strong in the previous edition is worthless in the next, and it isn’t because “everybody” plays it. It’s because GW has reached a point of diminishing returns, and it’s time to scale back the rules on that unit and beef them up on another. That invariably makes people stop buying one kit that used to be popular, and instead drives the sales towards a kit that used to be less popular. For Eldar, that means we should see fewer Serpents, and more Aspect Warriors, or perhaps units of Falcons or Fire Prisms. Even a tiny tweak can make a difference between a useless unit that is a drain on GW’s resources, and a powerhouse seller.

    • Lewis Everitt

      but serpents are still really good, not totally OP now but still one of the best transports in the game.

      • vonDietdrich

        I still don’t understand the ‘now Serpents won’t be on the table!’ argument.

        They’re /transports/. Really good ones. People probably won’t take minimum squads now just to maximize on the number of Wave Serpents, but I’ll still continue to run 2 or 3… because Eldar are fragile and need to spend the first turn or two sitting inside a tank so they aren’t shot off the board.

        The tank having a lot of firepower is a pleasant bonus.

  • Shawn Pero

    Pretty decent reasoning. Especially the point about Warhammer as a brand living on in the case of GW really screwing the pooch and not being able to continue financially – how many rumors have circulated over the years of Hasbro/WotC acquiring the brand? I feel like even if that happened GW would be shrewd enough to continue on as a license holder and making money while simply allowing other companies to produce (and profit from) the miniatures games. At this point, of all the wide array of games being released with the WFB/40K licenses, the only thing GW makes *is* the tabketop games, and they collect profits from everything else.

  • Bobsyouruncle

    A lot of the arguments is this article make sense in the short term but it’s the long term future of their business which they no longer seem concerned with as they just don’t appear to try to encourage kids and newbs into the hobby as much as they used to and they are the future of not just the hobby but of GW revenues .

    • Warrior_of_Sound

      I think that was a lot easier back in the day when people still went to/GW still had locations in… The Mall

      • Shawn Pero

        Back in the day, video games also weren’t able to provide the experience they do now, and media of all kinds wasn’t as readily available directly to beple’s eyeballs. That made wargaming as a hobby more attractive. Malls are different places now, and wargaming is a super-niche hobby overall.

        If I have a criticism about GW’s strategy of bringing in new players it’s the cost barrier, which probably could /should be lowered.

        • Warrior_of_Sound

          Im sort of halfway agreeing with you, it really depends on when back in the day was, by the time there was widespread Mall-Bound GW-inism we already had Video Game stores around and if you think about it as an example EB games started out as a unique idea in King of Prussia mall about the same time GW cultivated its Nott. storefront in the 70s. kinda crazy

        • WellSpokenMan

          Better locations would help. I live near one of the busiest malls in the US, but the GW store is in suburban strip mall 30 minutes from the city center. Nobody is going to walk by that store and think “hey that looks cool.” The price point is a valid criticism as well.

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            GW opened up shop in my area maybe 15 years ago, have been close for 5 years. They set up shop in our one mega high rent mall and the prices scared people away. While it was open the also killed off the two or three stores that had grown the game in my area, and now today while still having like 25 players in a 40k club, we have one store and thats a “full” price store meaning they dont get my business on anything but paints and books.

      • Bobsyouruncle

        Good point but when GW first started out in the late seventies and well into the eighties they couldn’t afford the high footfall, high rental areas like malls and shopping centres . Instead for years most GW shops in Britain were almost hidden away down back and side streets and many of them were tiny , my local one was so small it was almost like a large cupboard . What they did was build a community of gamers around each store by having proper tactics for helping people into the hobby so they didn’t need passing shoppers in high footfall areas . In the early 90’s after the success of some of the MB games like Heroquest and the management buyout they then began to expand into the high footfall areas like high streets and malls .

    • jonathon

      welcome to modern capitalism.

      You can see this type of short-sightedness across all industries. Case & point is the current oil glut which is having a significant impact in regions such as western Canada & throughout much of Russia. Prices are down, so spending is frozen, so development has stopped even though everybody in the industry knows that within 0.5-2 years the market will rebound & anyone who used this time to invest will come out ahead (cheaper production of facilities, facilities available once prices rebound to immediately begin turning out product, etc), yet all the producers are beholden to share holders who want their dividends today & not tomorrow – $0.10 today is better than $1.00 tomorrow after all isn’t it?

  • vyrago

    wow, Stockholm Syndrome.

    • Chris. K Cook

      If you’ve escaped the basement why are you still here?

      • alex luthor

        You seem to have escaped quite nicely. Maybe the same reason?

        • Chris. K Cook

          Nope, I like the hobby and the game and while GW do some odd things I’m not a fan of from time to time I think they are doing an ok enough job. So that’s why I’m here.To talk about stuff I love. You are here to rage and stamp your feet and piss all over us. Get a new hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If GWs’s games are making you this angry and unpleasant, stop. Find something else.

          • alex luthor

            Angry and unpleasant? I just repeated what you said almost verbatim! LOL!

            Irony is not dead. Have fun stomping your feet and pissing everywhere 😉

            In the future, please try not to project your anger on me, k?

          • Chris. K Cook

            Yeah I’M projecting…

        • Chris. K Cook

          FYI that was a Josef Fritzl reference.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q12WgEfCvG8

    • Zingbaby

      I’d say it’s far more insane to expect something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from your horrible fascist ‘jailers’, who force you to partake in this entirely optional game of toys – when they’ve been exactly the same for 25+ years.

  • Nate

    Whose to say GW doesn’t listen. Everything from Necrons up till now was pretty much most people’s wish list. Eldar D weapons are a bit freaky, but it’s putting super heavies in their place. Might be the counter balance unbound and LoW need.

    • Huntard

      Except that they also tear apart vehicles, MCs and multi-wound models just as well if not better. Sure it counters big 350+ pt. superheavies really well but we already had answers for that in abundance.

      • jonathon

        but again, in the context of the army book, fire dragons receive +3 on the damage table – meaning that a unit of 5 has about a 97% chance to blow up an AV14 vehicle in one salvo [5*(2/3)*(21/36)*(1/2)]. So with that in mind, does a unit packed with D-weapons having a really good chance to hullpoint a vehicle to death really make that big a difference?

        • Huntard

          Yes because a D-Scythe doing the D on a 3+ (which with 5 of them templating mind you) wipes infantry, MCs, Vehicles, Superheavies ane more away in a single blow. Add that to the fact that with DE allies you can deliver that D where you want it, when you want it with very little enemy interaction and you have a serious problem.

          • jonathon

            guess what? 90% of the infantry in the game is erased when hit by an AP2 template that wound(ed) on a 2+ so that’s not a big change. Vehicles & superheavies I’ve already addressed so that leaves MC’s…. uh… bubble-wrap them or see them die. Tau have Kroot & fire warriors; Daemons have…. daemons; Chaos has cultists; Nids have little gribblies meaning who is left? Grey Knights? oh shucks, I guess this really is game breaking & totally revise my position in this argument [/sarcasm].

          • vonDietdrich

            The D-Scythe was previously S4 AP2, so actually it’s gotten substantially better.

            On top of that, Fire Dragons have this thing called Ballistic Skill which means they might potentially miss. D-Scythes don’t miss. Fire Dragons also are vulnerable to these things called cover and jink saves, which you may have heard of. I think they were introduced in the previous edition? Something like that.

          • jonathon

            so yes, substantially better in the whole wounds on a 3+ thing.

            but note that the silly ballistic skill thing was factored into my calculation above – I even included the breakdown of the average fractions – that’s the (2/3) fraction. And sure, jink saves are a thing but so is flying & thus being immune to templates, or being a TANK that can’t jink. There are tonnes of exceptions. Don’t try to build a case of “if X then Y” because there’s always a “Z”..

            ultimately this isn’t the place to discuss the changes to the eldar codex – but if those changes, coupled with “GW’s refusal to listen” coupled with the “high prices” are too much for you… leave. Sever all ties & move on to the perfect game system you’ve found elsewhere.

          • vonDietdrich

            Tanks can still claim cover saves, and I don’t see Fire Dragons shooting down flyers very much.

            Nah, I think I’ll stick around, thanks. You can leave though, that’d make me happy.

  • Thomson

    Basically argument #1 says it all. GW can’t listen to customer arguments, because basically everybody plays different and prefers different armies.

    You can sum up what the GW “customer” says:
    – I don’t care for anything released for X because I don’t play X
    – Exept if it is OP because then I will loose every time I play vs X
    – And I want more releases for Y because I play Y
    – and btw Y is underpowered and needs more powerful units
    – but I can’t use unit Z for my Y because W is better.

    • Rotten Deadite

      I would suggest that a good place to start would be with technology. We could easily produce a smartphone app that records at least some data about every game we play.

      For example:
      Physical location of the game being played (GPS, if you like)
      Army lists for both sides
      Scenario and deployment
      Who scored how many points, and who won

      More data could be recorded, though it’d slow the game down by quite a bit. Things like which units were damaged by what, that sort of thing.

      GW could produce this application, but I wouldn’t recommend it, since I’d like the collected data to be viewable by anyone, not just GW. In the end, the information would be relevant to balancing tournament play, and at least give GW an idea of who’s fielding what units, which is more relevant than the data they currently have, which is who’s buying what.

      The most pessimistic thing I could say about this idea would be that it would only give GW a sense of where the meta is in various areas, as well as world-wide. And the meta does not necessarily reflect actual balance.

    • Crablezworth

      It’s almost like that occured when they forced everyone to play apocalypse in 6th and pushed that even further with 7th…

  • GW certainly doesn’t *have* to listen yo it’s customer base! but the year and a half of crashing profits and stock value they’ve had might suggest it’s a good idea right about now. 😛

    • Problem is if they ask 10 different people about what they want they’ll get 10 different answers.

      • Damon Sherman

        It’s not about making the perfect pasta, but making the perfect sauces.
        https://youtu.be/irZ-159xsZY

      • oldgrue

        In 10 people there won’t be at least 2 mentions of “outrageous price point” ?
        I think not

        • Sure but people were screaming about outrageous price points in 1999 when tanks were $25 and how a $45 land raider model was price gouging.

          • Damon Sherman

            That’s a weak use of the “slippery slope” argument. A big problem is that the plastic models that were meant as a cheaper alternative to the more expensive pewter models quickly eclipsed the latters price. $40 for plastic marines when the old ones cost $30 for metal miniatures does seem a little lame.

          • Im not really interested in engaging in one of the thousands of ligical fallacy circuits that seem to be so common on these boards. They are never constructive.

            The simple matter is people have been screaming about prices for over 20 years and even at 1990s prices people will whine that its too high.

            That has nothing to do with plastics being cheaper because years before that was even a thing people were still going ballistic on forums about price

          • dodicula

            well if they were screaming and staying that would be one thing, but many scream and leave, because gw,s revenues have been flat for a while now

          • Yes GW has been going under any day now since 2004 or so.

          • Avensis Astari

            Name a competitor of comparable quality that is noticeably cheaper.

          • dodicula

            and those people left, then they raised prices and more people left…rinse repeat. this is why their revenues have remained flat to down, you have fewer and fewer people paying for less and less of ever more expensive models

          • Porty1119

            If the costs were comparable to those of commercial plastic models in 1/48 or 1/56 scale, there would probably be a lot less complaining. I do 20mm (1/72) WW2 and moderns, and can honestly start a new platoon plus vehicles for the cost of a single GW kit. GW does not deliver sufficient value for my money, so I ditched it in favor of more cost-effective products.

            I know that mass-market gamers will still complain, but at least the pricing would be objectively fair and in line with that of comparable products.

          • Sure I don’t disagree. But the share holders may 🙂

            So long as there are people selling models that are 1/10 of GW’s cost, people will say GW is too expensive and should lower their cost to match.

            The thing is most of those companies are small and can get away with charging 1/10 of the cost.

            GW is publicly traded and cannot.

            Also not saying that their price isn’t too high because a lot of their stuff is ******’ing ridiculous but I’m saying that the desire to have them match the price of smaller companies cheaper models is not reasonable or realistic.

          • Commissar Molotov

            Whatever happened to “economies of scale?”

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            generally larger volume goods are cheaper, especially something like injection moulded plastic goods.

            When a company like Perry or Warlord can make multi-part plastics of reasonably good quality for 1/6th the cost of GW, and people are flooding to their games, then GW have a problem.

          • Thats true I agree. The problem GW has that the Perry’s dont is that they have multitudes higher costs to pay as well as share holders.

            The perry’s have to worry about the perry’s.

      • Bobsyouruncle

        Very true , trying to get war gamers/hobbyists to agree on anything is like trying to herd cats , perhaps one strategy is just to try to get as many kids interested in the hobby as possible then once they are hooked in let them go their own way .

        • I think the only constant that I have seen since the internet began in terms of this hobby anyway is that GW has never really been good at catering to more than one playstyle, and the playstyle not being catered to fills forums up like an echo chamber venting their frustration and anger until the pendulum switches.

          Then the other side does it.

          Exactly like politics actually.

          The thing in common is that the playstyle not being catered to will always try to say that they are the majority and that GW will suffer as a consequence. Thats been pretty much said since there was an internet.

          • Bobsyouruncle

            That’s true, which is why perhaps the best thing they can do is get as many kids into the hobby as possible in hope that a decent percentage will hang in and become long term gamers . It’s a bit of a blunt , “blunderbuss ” approach but it worked pretty well in the early 90’s with games like Heroquest .

          • dodicula

            when many of the software engineers are complaining about prices, its hard to imagine kids doing it. In my neck of the woods kids are finding cheaper, simpler gamrs, and theGW hobby is graying

          • jonathon

            as a hobby this is a luxury. If you think that war gaming is an expensive hobby I’d like you to step outside & have a conversation with… anyone really…

            I’d like to introduce you to some other hobbies:
            heavy drinking – $80-250 / night
            golfing – $80-120 / round + equipment
            hockey – $800 / season + equipment
            paintball – $100 / afternoon + equipment
            woodworking – up to $10,000 for a set of tools, then price per material….
            automobile restoration…
            motor biking…
            going to a movie – $25/person + refreshments

            ….so… lets look at 40K: buy an army plus hobby supplies plus rulebooks ~$1000. Lets assume you play 2 games per month and spend ~3 hours per game thus 6 hours per month or 72 hours GAMING per year. ~2 years between codex releases (probably fast.) so 144 hours per codex edition means less than $7/hr over a two year period & does not take into account time spent actually “hobbying” but not playing (building + painting…) and when that’s factored in… hell I probably spend 2-3 hours per infantry model… my chaos force contains about 50 models so lets say ~125 hours to build & paint, added to my 144 hours of playing puts a cost per hour at ~$3.71 / hr…

            that’s actually VERY cheap for a hobby.

          • Gridloc

            Hmm, very interesting picking those, why didn’t you pick other hobbies like,

            origami – $20 for book, 1000 sheets of paper ~ $10 ($30)

            Call of duty – 60$ + system ($300) ~ hours upon hours of entertainment

            Every other game for that system -> $60 EVEN MORE HOURS OF FUN

            Basketball in the yard -> $100 hoop and $35 ball

            Bird watching -> free unless you get some fancy equipment

            Hiking -> Free

            Xwing – > $100 -> $200 for numerous forces

            DZC ~ $200 for full force

            WM/H ~ $400 for full force

            Infinity – $200 for full force

            Plus you get to paint those too games too (well xwing not really)

            The last ones was there to compare hobbies that are similar not some crazy hobbies that happen to cost tons of cash to make a point.

          • amaximus167

            Those last ones are even more applicable. They are games!

          • jonathon

            if only they included a comparable number of figurines… if I want to paint up 10-20 infinity figurines I’m looking at spending $150-$300, however if I”m looking at 10-20 GW figurines I”m looking at spending ~$80 (on average!). So sure, cost per PLAY time is less, but cost per HOBBY time is not comparable.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            try SAGA or Bolt Action. Figures for those games are 28mm plastic and come in a box around the same cost as a GW box, but you get FORTY MODELS in that box.

          • Marcustigelinus

            We could sit here all day naming activities and hobbies that are free or cost little. None of the things he mentioned are “crazy hobbies”, they’re fairly common hobbies that a considerable number of people participate in. That’s why there are billion dollar industries based around them.

          • archied

            man alive, drinking in the states is expensive!

          • vonDietdrich

            There’s no way that kids are getting into the hobby now without a wargamer in the family. Have you looked at the prices for things lately?

            Just buying a decent-sized army costs as much as a next-gen video game platform, let alone putting it together and painting it, buying a rulebook, buying a codex, reading through all of it, and then actually playing the game.

            A starter deck for Magic is much cheaper and plays right out of the box. That’s why Magic is booming in pretty much every LGS I’ve walked into for the last fifteen years, and you see some guys in the back with a wargame once in a while.

          • jonathon

            you do know that you shouldn’t list the “putting together and painting” as part of the costs of the game right? For many of us, those are part of the perks & exactly why we spend money on plastic crack rather than cards or video games….

            Also, when kids are starting the game they don’t need to jump up to 2,000points. The starter boxes GW put out last year plus one or two additional kits & you’ve go ta playable 800-1200pt army which is more than enough for a couple of kids to start off at until they’re earning their own money.

          • vonDietdrich

            The expense of paint and primer, learning how to paint, learning how to put models together, the time spent on putting models together… these are costs.

            If you enjoy them, great. But I’m listing them as costs because.. they are costs when you’re considering the total cost of the hobby.

            I said ‘decent-sized army’ not ‘2,000 point army’.

            Starter boxes.. Dark Vengeance is $110. Assuming that’s what you meant, you’ll still need a codex ($50) per faction. Dark Vengeance clocks in around 600 points per faction, so we’ll call it an extra kit around $50, and $40 on paint and primer for one faction.

            Dark Vengeance is the best deal, hands down, when starting 40k. Even assuming that, it still costs about $250 to get a minimal 800 point army. Add another $100 to get that army up to around 1,000 points.

            If the new player doesn’t want Dark Angels or Chaos Space marines, tack on another $50 to $100.

          • Yeah, but Magic is card stock with pictures on it. I’d actually say it’s pretty easy to get into the game these days. Dark Vengeance and Island of Blood (and Black Reach) were not only insane value because of the armies in the box, but also the quality of miniatures, which also meant a lot of long beards wanted to buy them too.
            Add to that the fact that unbound exists and GW has basically told the kids that they can play how they want. Dont forget that GW also does intro games and hobby classes. I don’t know about other areas, but no other stores do that in my area.
            While it’s true that GW has been failing/going out of business for some time now, it’s like saying that Apple was going out of business when the market share for smart phones tipped in Android’s favour. Sure, all the myriad companies running android have about 60% of the market, but one company has the other 40%. (I made those numbers up, but you get the idea)

          • Chris. K Cook

            That’s what got me hooked 20 years ago.

      • amaximus167

        That is why you ask a larger sample group than 10 and you pick out the common strains. Or better yet, figure out a way to give multiple opinions what they want. There is almost always a way.

        • vonDietdrich

          It’s almost like market research is a professional corporate activity with documented methods and case studies.

          • Brettila

            Oh, come on… that’s just crazy talk.

  • Grand_Master_Raziel

    The only reason GW is in the position it’s in is because they’ve had something like a 30 year head start on all their competitiors in the tabletop mini wargame business. Continually failing to produce a quality balanced game and keeping their customer base pissed off is a strategy for failure in the long term. The show might go on for the community if GW fails, because I agree they’d wind up selling their IP, but I don’t think a corporate exec or a shareholder would consider that a successful outcome.

  • Snord

    “GW doesn’t listen’ is essentially the cry of the entitled internet poster, who thinks that GW doesn’t listen to him personally. Of course they listen – they don’t do proper market research, and they don’t engage with the internet (who’d want to), but the current state of WH40k proves that they have done a lot of listening. Did every internet nobody who believes GW owes them a personal blood debt just because they spent money on GW products get what he wants? No.

    GW have, of course, messed up for time to time – the Finecast launch stands out as a low point, and of course there have been codexes that flopped, and Dread Fleet. But these are not evidence of a failure to listen. It’s rather naive to say that they don’t have to listen because they’re too big. That’s nonsense – I think they’re far more aware of the competition than they’re given credit for. But they got a long way ahead by taking the plunge into investing seriously in plastic production, and it’s paying off in terms of model quality and frequency of releases. In fact, the internet is now complaining that there’s too much too quickly, which just goes to show…

    • dodicula

      Nope the evidence of failure is flat to declining revenue despite price increases

      • Avensis Astari

        This, of course, being the only factor at play given their basis in England’s faltering economy…

        • Given their international presence, as well as the fact that the the US market is the one causing their biggest headache, I don’t really see how England’s economy figures prominently into their current problems.

          • Avensis Astari

            They’re an English company, and thus are affected by the depreciation of the GBP, increasing taxes, and other issues plaguing British business.

            America is, thankfully, not the only country in the world.

          • Commissar Molotov

            Sez YOU!

          • I’m not sure how GBP depreciation and other British issues are supposed to have caused a worldwide drop in sales, but I’m willing to listen.

          • Avensis Astari

            This, of course, being the only factor at play

            Lex, I wasn’t saying it was the only factor at play. That’s called sarcasm. I was saying that GW’s performance in America isn’t the be all, end all of their business.

            If you can’t see how the depreciation of the currency and increasing of taxes would be cutting into their profits and thus exacerbating the issue of getting money in the coffers, then that’s on you to educate yourself…

          • bginer

            Wasn’t GW’s sales down all over the world?

            Also, the English economy has been going gangbusters lately according to the Telegraph is I’m going to be really interested in the next financials.

          • The sarcasm is obvious; what’s not obvious is any justification for it. It’s fairly undeniable that GW is having fairly major problems with sales – not just in the US, but worldwide – and that is by far the biggest driver of their current slump in revenue, profits and share price. Could the political and business climate of the UK be having some effect on this? Sure. There’s no evidence that I’m aware of, however, that this is a significant factor in the situation. If it were, you’d certainly expect them to make that clear in their financial statements, rather than letting Tom Kirby go on sloppy, shareholder-spooking rants that only achieve the odd feat of making the company look even less competent than they might actually be.

          • Avensis Astari

            It’s a good thing there’s not a global economic crisis muddying the figures, right?

            It’s also really handy that GW’s competitors put out comparative figures for us to use as reference, right?

        • Given their international presence, as well as the fact that the the US market is the one causing their biggest headache, I don’t really see how England’s economy figures prominently into their current problems.

    • Wm was the best thing to happen IMHO. It gave that large disenchanted customer base a game more suited to their style, I cant imagine how it would be if Wm wasnt around anymore…so much more whining

    • durendin

      It’s interesting that you think that Dreadfleet was a flop – Games Workshop sold every copy they made.

      • jonathon

        didn’t they have to recall a bunch of dreadfleet boxes as they weren’t moving off the shelves fast enough?

        • durendin

          Nah, gamer urban legend. Besides, define “fast enough?” True they didn’t sell at the rate that Space Hulk did but even if it took six months or longer, they still sold all the units and turned the predicted profit.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I think its still on the shelf at my local toy store…

          • Snord

            There are still boxes on the shelf of my local GW. Dread Fleet (which I bought) was meant to be another Space Hulk – a fast selling one-off. It was a failure on those terms. I bought it, btw, and it’s actually a rather nice game – the models are terrific.

          • durendin

            But it isn’t in Games Workshops warehouse!

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            true 🙂

          • Brettila

            Nope, you can still see boxes on the shelf.

  • Joseph Norton-Jones

    I’d love to know where the market share statistics come from in this article. Or as I suspect, they were made up. Terrible piece, shouldn’t have made it onto the front page.

  • WellSpokenMan

    As others have said, Games Workshop is listening. They just do things their own way. I think they heard people say the game takes too long. You can fix that by lowering the model count with large but expensive models and you can make other units a lot more lethal so that alot of models are being removed per turn (D weapons). They have been doing both recently.
    On the flip side, at least in the upper midwest, GW isn’t doing that well here. I have been able to buy GW kits for 50% off and a couple of the LGS carry GW products but the game is rarely played in their stores. GW might rule the miniatures roost, but Wizards of the Coast still kicks their butts in every LGS I have ever been in. Locally, Fantasy Flight is doing a much better job at pulling in the MtG crowd than GW.

    • vonDietdrich

      But D weapons break the large/expensive models trend. Doing both destroys the solution, because now if you take large/expensive models you’re going to be tabled if your opponent takes D weapons in large quantities (say, 15 shots per turn? Half of them will probably be blasts. Statistically, that’s enough to remove 2 Imperial Knights per turn with some to spare)

      The easiest solution to game length is to release a skirmish game ruleset. Say ‘models above 170 points aren’t allowed’ ‘lords of war aren’t allowed’ ‘you’re limited to 1 vehicle or MC per 500 points’ ‘you can’t have more than one special weapon upgrade per 200 points (with a list for each faction of what constitutes a special weapon)’. Toss in lowered squad size rules so things like terminators become Independent Characters and give an alternate Warlord Trait table for skirmish games.

      It could be done in an afternoon, is my point. I highly doubt that Gee Dubs’ convoluted and obtuse ‘solutions’ to game design have anything to do with listening to the larger community’s concerns.

      • jonathon

        why do they need to release a special game to accomplish what you’re asking for? Why can’t you and your buddies simply play a game at 500 points using the rules available? You can play a small, squad based skirmish game using 3-4 basic squads with gear, or you can pick up the battle missions book & play kill team from there if you want individual model skirmishes, or hell you can pick up the $8.99 kill team PDF from black library…

        Don’t like the warlord table? Don’t use it.
        Don’t like random objectives? Don’t use them.
        Don’t like random scenario generation? Always deploy for a kill-points/pitched battle if that’s your thing.

        • Chris. K Cook

          Spot on. The game is a toolbox. YOU pick the tools you want.

          • archied

            or i could just go back to 5th, because i liked that toolbox and didnt need to faff around picking and choosing what bits to play with and could get a 1500 point game completely done in under an hour and a half.

          • Chris. K Cook

            You do that you and the rest of the folks kvetching and moaning can go play that horrid edition in the corner while the rest of us have fun over here in the 7th ed Sandbox.

            This is the crux of it, the WAAC crowd broke that horrid load of junk that was 5th ed and you hat that you need to evolve and try new things now.

            So you play 5th ed and stop bothering the rest of us. No Jackbooted GW Stormtroopers are going to kick down your door and repossess your 5th ed books so go play that and don’t bother the rest of us.

            You can be like the Oldhammer guys, you can call it Cheesehammer.

          • archied

            If you genuinely believe 7th is a better core ruleset than 5th then I honestly don’t know what to say.

          • jonathon

            “I respectfully disagree with your opinion sir. However since you have every right to your opinion – just as I do my own – I shall say no more on this matter & we can both continue in peace”

            something like that maybe?

          • Chris. K Cook

            Then stop screaming at people for having a different opinion about something that is SUBJECTIVE!

            You know what metric use to say that 7th ed is ‘better’ than 5th? Freedom of choice. And fun. You do remember fun right?

        • vonDietdrich

          Because an informal agreement runs into the exact same problems as GW’s “make up all the rules yourself” approach.

          Could it work if I chat with a friend or two and get them to play? Sure, maybe. Nobody I know likes playing the game below 1250, though.

          It’s the /exact/ same reason that having a rulebook is useful in the first place. Because a third party is telling you and your opponent what the rules are, you don’t have to run down a checklist of ‘things’ and clarify every point with your opponent before the game and hope they agree.

          • jonathon

            I like playing games below 1250 so I guess that makes me unique? Also, please note that I didn’t state you had to make up any rules yourself but instead posted (3) different GW supported methods of playing small games.

          • vonDietdrich

            Please note that your ‘GW-supported’ methods would make it onto a piece of paper (or pieces of paper) that I would hand to my opponent and say ‘here’s a summary of the game type I want to play, sound good?’

            As these are ‘house rules’, which are ‘rules that I’ve made up myself for this game that we’re going to play that deviate from using all the rules for regular 40k’, they are things that my opponent would have to agree to, individually.

            And if my opponent does not agree, then either we have to come to a compromise or decide not to play the game.

            If you can’t understand how that’s different I really don’t know what to tell you.

          • jonathon

            my “GW supported methods” are on a piece of paper…. in fact I listed explicitly two locations you can find rules for GW published materials for skirmish based 40K gaming – two iterations of the kill team rules published by GW. Further, you do not need “special” permission to play a 500 point combat patrol – any more than you need to play a 1850point game, you’re simply agreeing with your opponent what your list construction will look like. That isn’t in the BRB – if you drop into your FLGS for pick-up gaming, how do you know how large a force to bring with you? When you go to a tournament / event same question. These are aspects of the HOBBY which are not covered in the rules – but are determined via player interaction.

            If you think that this amount of compromising or agreement is too difficult then TTWG is not for you – try your hand at starcraft online or something where the matches are predetermined by selection of a finite number of game elements you select & then join matchmaking to find peers looking for the same type of game…. but again, consensus is required else you may find yourself in the lobby for a looooong time…

          • vonDietdrich

            Kill Team hasn’t been supported in a while.

            There’s a difference between

            “Do you want to play a 1000 point game of 40k?”

            and

            “Do you want to play a 1000 point game of 40k, but we’re not going to use warlord traits, and we’ll explicitly use this type of deployment, no random objectives, no gargantuans or superheavies, no Lords of War, no Montrous Creatures or Vehicles over 200 points, 25% of your point composition has to be troop choices, no more than 300 points of elite/fast attack/heavy support slots, and you can’t select a Chapter Master or other loaded super-character as your HQ choice?”

            The second one would be better as a supported game mode with explicitly defined rules, so someone could say ‘hey, do you want to play with the 7th edition skirmish rules?’ instead of rattling all of that off and hoping your opponent agrees.

            Do you understand how the second option would be more efficient as an official game mode rather than a ‘house rule it and hope for the best’ thing?

            While we’re at it, I really dislike your Holier-Than-Thou attitude. It’s rather preachy.

          • DarkAngel

            There are Kill Team rules, and more models for it than you can shake a stick at. How is that not supported?

      • WellSpokenMan

        I think that GW wants us playing a “skirmish” game with Titans, Baneblades, Wraith Knights, etc. They do have Kill Team, but 40k gets really hard to balance at low points levels. I’m always torn on the GW is stupid v GW is evil debate, but I lean towards stupid. I think they are unwilling to move away from a large model count game because they think that will cost them sales. They want the game to move faster, but they still want us to spend ridiculous amounts of money to be able to play a game. I don’t think that they have the creative capacity to make a modern skirmish game even if they saw the need. They are too entrenched in their philosophy.

        • vonDietdrich

          Stupid is my vote, also, but I think the stupidity is intentionally cultivated by incestuous corporate culture. They could easily bring in fresh talent/better designers.

  • Robomummy

    Let’s face it, If GW listens to us as a community in the way of business strategy and what they should do next they would have run themselves into the ground years ago. They have been around this long so can we at least agree that they may have at least some Idea of what they are doing?

  • TweetleBeetle

    GW does, ironically, listen to its customers. They give people what they spend their money on, and that’s good business. People loved Imperial Knights and bought the heck out of them. So what did GW do? Gave them more options and a new book that helps them speak the same language as the other new, post-Necrons books. Better internal balance, an option to buy an upgrade sprue if you already have Knights, all things customers will show they want with their wallets.

    The vocal, angry minority online do not represent the larger customer base.

    Good companies don’t listen to words and respond in kind. They follow the money, and TELL people what they want. Apple and Samsung are crushing it in electronics following this model. Nordstrom – the most overpriced clothing retailer on Earth – are destroying the cheaper competition this way as well. All with virtually no sneak previews or advertising, mind you (hmm…sound familiar?).

    40k is decimating the competition, because it’s fun, the rules are improving, there are more options than in any other game for the players to choose from, and every army (Sisters, soon) is getting attention. Not to mention the hands-down best products available.

    • Secundum

      Inb4 they give Sisters a new release…co-written by Cruddace and Ward-OWAIT.

    • dodicula

      Yes, you put it perfectly…gw listens…ironically

    • vonDietdrich

      The old Imperial Knight book was completely invalidated when 7th dropped and they received an FAQ that basically said ‘all the rules for Knights in the book are invalid, please refer to the BRB.’

      This happened shortly after the codex was released.

      Putting out a new Knights codex is pretty much mandatory since they’re selling people an entire book with one unit profile and a bunch of rules that aren’t valid in the current edition of 40k, and I think even GW realizes that’s stupid.

    • I think they also listened with the new decurion detacents that necrons and eldar have. We all complained about paying for two books, so now rather than shoe horning a supplement into every army, they’ll only do it when it’s necessary like marine chapters. At least I hope they do more supplements. Where’s my Iron Warriors supplement?????

  • Azrell

    GW is a very large company. That recently took a 20% stock loss. If you have learned anything from recent history its that no company is too big to fail.

  • Badgerboy1977

    Given the unrelenting negativity, often based on very little, that tends to pervade forums like these I’d be very glad if GW really doesn’t pay attention to them, as if they did we’d be in real trouble as a hobby.

  • Never ceases to amaze me. Just because social media gives you a voice does not mean you get a say. GW does not care what you think Cuz it doesn’t need to. The customer isnt always right.

    • Chris. K Cook

      Which Customers are right though?

      Wargamers are like Eldar. Ask any two of them a question and your get three different answers. All of them Horrifying.

  • Crablezworth

    GW hits me because they love me

  • ted1138

    Most criticism of GW that i see is justified(imho). They have gone from being the champion of alternative gaming(yes, tabletop gaming is very much an alternative/niche hobby/pursuit), to being a niche hobby gaming company that exists purely to support a chain of expensive retail stores that only stock their own products(surely they should be making money hand over fist if there’s no middle man?). Every(bad) decision they make is designed to keep those stores in business, even if they don’t make a large profit(or any profit at all). They adopted the DLC model from video games, so now you have to buy 1-2 £30-£35 codices plus multiple mini codex/supplements for each army. Plastic figures(which to be honest i do prefer to resin or metal)cost more than I’d expect to pay if they came pro painted(can you imagine the mess these things become when painted by a child/new player?).

    I’d love to see GW go back to being a company that I want to support, but they’ve distanced themselves too far from the hobby that I want to be a part of…

    • DarkAngel

      So you’re actually saying that you have grown up, and no longer want to play with toy soldiers?

      • ted1138

        I wouldn’t go that far…

  • Avensis Astari

    I’ve found that the online presence is very America-centric, especially here on BoLS, and that seems to add to the general feeling that, “the customer is always right.”

    GW’s roots in English retail means they see America as less the focus and more the expansion of their business, and it seems the very tournament-oriented play is mostly concentrated in America, (or at least, BoLS’ reporting of tournaments seems to be exclusive to American ones.)

    GW don’t need to listen to their customers in the same way Apple don’t. That’s what they’re aiming for, and despite the vitriol and bile Apple receive on the ‘Net, they still rake it in. I don’t doubt the Eldar Codex sold well, nor that the Skitarii were a hit. At least locally, the shelves were cleaned of that stuff pretty sharpish.

    My main problem is the Internet Circlejerk of Complaining. It seems it’s illegal to simply enjoy the game as a casual player, given that every topic, thread and article is filled with groups of people whining at each other about GW without actually bothering to do anything about it.

    Write a community errata, mass email GW, push for tournament comp. Just do something fecking productive and stop bawling without trying to fix the problem.

    • Gridloc

      People did make tournament comp, then GW releases a new codex that was under/over powered and they remade the comp… problem is that eventually you start to realize your comping so much and upsetting so many people that you become the bad guy and not the game system.

      America is the problem, we are a land of consumers, we are the market sheep of the world too. The game is about narrative and is lost in what it was originally designed for… why? i’m not sure, maybe the release of video games, the drive of media to show the fierce joy of sport competitions created a ‘win’ mentality. Maybe a world where you have to work harder to get a job, or the fact that models cost more (not just GW’s) making your investment becomes obsolete with new releases. For what ever reason, many have felt cheated and emails are ignored, however we all love reading comments on pointless articles.

      • vonDietdrich

        What does “about narrative” mean, though? GW themselves has released very little to push the game’s narrative focus.

        Mighty Empires and the 40k version was the best thing that GW did to help the narrative, and even that was a glorified boardgame with paint-it-yourself pieces. The rules were also extremely simple in the most recent iteration.

        If GW released a big ‘campaign supplement’ describing in detail how to run a large campaign for their game with rules and arbitration mechanics for a strategic layer of gameplay, I would believe that they really intend for Warhammer to have a narrative focus.

        But they don’t. So what we’re left with is glorified ‘my faction wins all the time!’ fanwank.

        • Chris. K Cook

          Crusade of Fire, Sanctus Reach, Shield of Baal. All but 4 of the Imperial Armour Books. Those not good enough for you?

          • vonDietdrich

            Imperial Armor is quite good, but we’re discussing Gee Dubs and their main design studio, not Forgeworld.

            Sanctus Reach and Shield of Baal were scenario pamphlets focused around a limited edition box set of minis.

            Crusade of Fire is no longer for sale and its rules aren’t supported. I feel like it was light on content but it was most definitely the closest to “the right direction” that GW has ever ventured.

          • Chris. K Cook

            “Sanctus Reach and Shield of Baal were scenario pamphlets focused around a limited edition box set of minis”

            So I’m Hallucinating those Shield of Baal Leviathan and Exterminatus Slipcase books on my shelf then? Did my FLGS sell me Pixie dust damn it?

          • DarkAngel

            But Forgeworld is GW. Adult 40k gamers have been crying out for more in-depth rules/campaigns/supplements and it’s been there for years. I’d highly recommend the Badab wars books. They are a great read, and are on offer on the FW website at the moment.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Tournament Comp is usually just the big dogs penalising anything they don’t like that can beat them or their friend’s armies. Its universally horrid.

  • Gridloc

    I think there is a massive difference between Market research and listening to a bunch of people on a forum. Going on to BOLS would be a nightmare for the company, ignoring what people generally feel toward your product is simply bad business practice. Apple did that for long time, they controlled the market for phones and computers, then others came in and copied them. Apples shares starting going down, the lose of their pioneer (Jobs) and they started to make changes, ‘Bigger phones, colors on their phones, etc) these changes maintained a healthy company. If they were pushing out the same phone each year for more money, think iphone 6 would have been as big of a success?

    I would love to know how the author knows they are still biggest in the game? Other companies are private? Did you contact their finance department, or did you just run your GW fanboy mouth? You may think its okay for their business strategies, i don’t know your living situation, maybe you mommy pays for your toys, or you live at home and have the cash. Some people got into the game for the game and not just the hobby. Feeling their investments become invalid each codex release does not sell well.

    People are voting with their wallets, all the ‘GW is doing fine’ does not explain why after shutting down stores, reducing inventory and re-vamping a website still leads to less profits. Yes profits, but less and more stuff trimmed.

    I played GW games for over 15 years, left 2 years ago, i still follow since its like bad day time television. Jerry springer show style of the beaten wife explaining to a crowd of people how its not her husbands fault, he loves her….

    • vonDietdrich

      ” Feeling their investments become invalid each codex release does not sell well.”

      Precisely this, yes.

      Once it became obvious in End Times that an edition change was coming, most people I know stopped buying Warhammer Fantasy altogether because a rules shift means that army builds (or entire armies) could become obsolete.

      • Gridloc

        Same happened in my gamer group. You first had some very strange rules, but we went with them for Nagash, the new spells and models looked great. Then each release we kept hearing the rumors, and the thought that these new models would be only valid for one game campaign and that other models may be no longer support caused a mass exit from the group. So I was frustrated at GW since spent alot on the books (including spending more to get those ‘limited’ release hardcovers). No one made me buy any of that which is always the pro-GW view.. thats right no one made me, i had faith that the game was going to be turning for the better, instead saw it turn into a money grab for cool models but little work into the game design beyond killing the entire fluff.

        I’m not advocating switching games, but when i went to WM/H, the first thing that i saw and liked is the new releases… it was across the board and though it changed the meta, it did so in a positive way to make sure the game still had a semi balance (no game is perfect) but there was no great rush to drop armies and start new one since mine was obsolete. Instead i got new toys and got to use my old toys in new ways. So it is completely possible to have a company work to maintain the game and release new stuff.

        • archied

          i tried to purchase nagash twice when it was released and when the 2nd batch got sent out to stores, my local GW store only got something like 6 copies total so i ended up missing out. so glad i did in the end as it would feel like wasted cash by this point.

          If youve still got your fantasy armies, word is Mantic are including rules for using all the gw races in their kings of war game when V2 hits in the summer. Its definitely piqued my interest as the V1 rules were nice and straightforward.

  • Backyard Science

    Currently I’d say GW are loosing that battle with their current business strategy. The beginner box sets are the highest of any equivalent on the market and we’re not talking by £5 out £20 (or dollars if you will) but significant amount of monies. Then each unit you buy is going to be £20+, that’s not exactly pocket money and special character (one model!) can be £15! When you’re changing the army rules every two years or less and releasing the volume of stuff GW is at the moment that is a daunting undertaking even for people in a job earning money, let alone a kid. It doesn’t matter how many extra items you sell through books or games when you’re actively providing a barrier to new customers.

    Sure a kid could read the books and like them but I’d argue the main game has a much higher profile than the books. So you’d see a lot of customers by a codex choose and army and then want to read more of the fluff so they invest in the books. As for games, why would a kid who is previously unaware of the 40k universe go for a little known game? There’s all the triple A titles out there already that they probably already have their eye on. When you combine that with a community that currently vents more frustration at GW than love, it doesn’t look an attractive investment.

    That’s why it’s an interest for GW to listen and learn. People don’t get pissed off without a reason. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people explain they won’t be investing becuase their army is now not what it used to be, not been updated or not competitive enough. To the extent where it’s not even fun to play becuase the army can’t do what it’s supposed to do well anymore: Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Dark Angels, CSM and arguably Orks and the list seems to be growing. Rules matter when your revenue is directly tied to the game!

    The article here compares GW to Apple but there is a lot of Apple hate growing too as they’re becoming a fashion brand for technology with decreasing technological incentive to by. That’s causing customers to turn away, although the advantage Apple has is that they are a much bigger brand name that produce products people use day-to-day and has no ‘geeky’ stigma to it so they can attract the younger customers and secure a future market. People see phones and laptops as necessities not luxuries these day and if on a contract I can get the coolest newest apple phone for £20 a month then it seem a much more enticing prospect than around £100 for plastic models.

    The way GW are running things might seem like good business if you look at the numbers, but people don’t judge a business by its numbers but on it’s product, and when that product is a game requiring two people to play the community is important too. The numbers and market control only look good now becuase of the 30 year head start GW have had to establish a fan base and community. Currently that community is stagnating to older players with fewer new players coming into the hobby, especially kids who would then become the next generation of veteran players thereby securing business for a while. GW are trying to get as much as they can out of this stagnant pool and the water is just festering while they do so. Meanwhile the rain is falling on the other side of the island and a currently smaller pool is beginning to grow in the form of competition who, whilst small, are winning the battle for new customers and securing themselves a future place in the market. GW looks to be doing the opposite, they’re the market leaders here and now and even if they do run themselves into the ground and someone buys the brand I bet we’d see that new company listen and try and recapture its market or entice new players.

    (You may note here that the two main complaints about GW, with respect to gaming, are about the discrepancy between codices and the prices. Which is what everyone has complaints about. The only difference is how much and which rules. THAT is up to the company to decide. Maybe community input and market research might help there.)

    Rant over

    • Gridloc

      If apple was like GW, i would have to buy new iOS (instead of download for free) every couple of months for it to still work.

      • Backyard Science

        If they actually decided to bring out the update (FAQ)

        • vonDietdrich

          And then they’d stop updating for a year and make you pay for the updates because it’s a “new edition”.

  • David Leimbach

    GW does listen to us. They are updating codexes at a faster pace. Complaints about lack of hobby info? GW gave us Lord Duncan Rhodes our Lord and Savior of the Brush. New kits, updated old armies. Look at the entire 40k range as it has changed from 5th edition. Cool new kits, faster updates to FAQ’s, clearer rule set! GW has come a long way – sure it has room for improvement, but regardless of which way you see it, you must admit GW has changed a lot since 5th edition.

    • Wilma Lang

      “GW does listen to us.”

      Why are they punishing us by forcing us to play Apocalypse as if it were regular 40k?

      • Dennis Harrison

        They aren’t forcing anything on you- did you see the article about consent that was posted. If we go back through the history of this company it is always about getting together with friends for a game.

        • Crablezworth

          And making that arduous, overly negative and highly political is an improvement?

      • Chris. K Cook

        Lords of War are not Apocalypse. And they are optional, Just like Allies, Formations, Unbound, Fortifications or anything else that has your panties in a bunch. No one is forcing anything on you.

        O wait sorry silly me. You are right your way is the only one true way to play 40K.

        Badwrongfun! BADWRONGFUN!! BADWRONG FUUUUUUNN!!!!!1!1!!!!!!1

        • amaximus167

          I think the issues is, the perception being that this is more of a social out of the dining room kind of game then say, and RPG or a board game, that you have to stick to the current rules as you might encounter strangers and y’all need to be on the same footing. I personally do not play games with strangers, so that does not apply to me.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Because heavens forbid you talk to someone before you stand opposite them.

            Or is it all like you sand on one side of a table and wait for someone wish an army case to walk past?

            “Hi there sailor.Fancy a game of 40K, big boy?”

          • dinodoc

            Maybe people don’t want to waste time that could be used playing the game negotiating over rules that should have been tested before release?

          • amaximus167

            Yeah, honestly standing around throwing out a bunch of addendums and exceptions to a stranger right before a game doesn’t sound all that fun.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Then don’t play pick up games with strangers. I don’t. hell that’s why I bother with tournies. To meet new players and find out if I want to play them again.

          • amaximus167

            I don’t. I already said that. But, games should be designed so that there is a minimum of pre-game hashing for the social gamer.

          • Chris. K Cook

            I think 7th has the least amount needed without compromising options myself.

            How hard is it to say something like “Looking for a Game. No Unbound, no LoW, Max 3 sources.”?

            Most folks round here either p;ay their mates or tee up games with randoms via the local Wargaming FB Page. The mythical pick up game against a random at the local store is dead.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Yes all that awkward interacting with a human must be tiresome for you. What ever you do don’t make small talk during the game. You might have a seizure.

          • dinodoc

            House ruling something myself that should have been dealt with before I bought it doesn’t seem all that fun to me.

          • amaximus167

            Exactly. House rules are fun when playing campaigns with friends. But not as cool when doing pick me ups at a store.

          • vonDietdrich

            This is why people who say ‘hey, the 40k rulebook is just a bunch of suggestions, change it if you don’t like it’ have no idea what they’re talking about.

            If you want to play someone that you’re not close friends with, the rulebook is the one thing you two have in common. If you have a disagreement, the rulebook settles it (hopefully).

            If you have a two-page list of ‘things about the rulebook that I’m changing’ which your opponent has to agree to before the game even starts, it already sets you on the back foot as far as having a nice, amicable and smooth game. It makes everything take longer and runs a big risk of mucking the whole thing up.

          • Gridloc

            Exactly, i don’t want to be making back alley deals with people i’m about to play… There was a fight the other day in our group because of a friend wanting to play his baneblade, he is sitting there pleading to play a game with people. How is that fun? The rules are there to find common ground and to play a game around that. Sure you can play campaign with your friend and modify the rules to make it interesting. Such as a XP for characters like we did for fantasy. I play DZC, X-wing, WM/H, Infinity – nice thing is to show up and say ‘how many points?’ and thats it, no pulling out mountains of datasheets and ammendments and figuring out how we can both have fun… no we pick points and play the game that has great rules thus no fighting and just fun… it isn’t a hard concept. you asking us to play negotiation games prior to playing does not sound fun.

          • Chris. K Cook

            The game is a Toolbox, YOU pick what tools you use.

            Me I like the freedom. Why do you want to straight jacket everyone else to play the game YOUR way?

          • vonDietdrich

            Right, but if I don’t like what “tools” you want to use, either we have to waste time finding a compromise or we don’t play.

            For example, a friend of mine was just starting out with Space Marines and agreed to play a skirmish match with an Imperial Guard player. The Guard player brought several vehicles, and my friend only had a pretty basic 500 point infantry army.

            Poor sportsmanship on the part of the Guard player? Definitely. But this sort of thing isn’t uncommon if the rules aren’t explicitly defined beforehand.

            What happens if you think it’s perfectly reasonable to bring a superheavy to a 1500 point match because Lords of War are legal now, but I have nothing to counter it? Do we sit down and compare lists beforehand? Do I have to run a super OP take-all-comers netlist just to get a pick-up game?

            The “lack of freedom” previously in the game was meant as a substitute for sportsmanship. It didn’t matter if your opponent thought bringing five Riptides was reasonable or not, the game didn’t let you (mostly).

            Now there’s no limits, so we all have to fend for ourselves.

          • Crablezworth

            It’s almost like we’re paying money with the expectation of getting a game out of it, not the opportunity to make one.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Try interaction and communication with people before the game. That is what normal humans do.

            So your argument is we need the heavy hand of GW to protect us from the sharks? Rather than to just avoid them and let them play each other.

            I argue the opposite. The 5 Riptide guy would be unpleasant to play against with any army because ‘that guy’ will always be ‘that guy’ he’s just easier to spot now.

            Why do people assume they are obliged to play against every social misfit that can pick up a dice and assemble models?

          • Crablezworth

            chris, from the sounds of it, you seem to forgetting the politics and bad air the come from both parties not being able to find a common ground.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Then walk away. If someone won’t compromise on simple stuff like that they probably won’t be enjoyable to play against.

      • Weceslas

        Bigger stuff cost more? I guess. Thats why I left.

      • Because a lot of people wanted it to be a part of “regular 40k” and it is now a part of “regular 40k”. So they are listening to us. Just not the ones that don’t want anything to do with apoc.

        Which us is more valid?

        One of us is going to obviously not be listened to.

        Does that encompass all of us?

        • Because they want to sell large kits to people who believe they are too invested to change. Come on…listen to what you’re saying.

          • I’m saying there are a lot of people that like apocalypse style games or want to use those types of models in their games and that trying to claim that one knows everyone’s mind by claiming “us” is all of us is not valid.

            While you may hate GW and wish to hold a revolution against them for whatever reason, there are more than enough people that are content with what they are getting and everyone’s value system is very different from each other.

    • Secundum

      Faster FaQ updates? Wut.

  • dinodoc

    Quick summary of the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ

  • kaptinscuzgob

    nice use of clip art

  • Adam Murray

    Sometimes ignoring what fans think they want can actually be a great idea

  • BoLs is jumping the relevancy shark with posts like this.

    1) That’s a ridiculous idea. Your ideas are bad, and you should feel bad you GW shill.

    2) Not anymore. Quit telling people this, it’s over.

    3) What? With the way they are working to make sure you can’t do anything with the models they sell?? JESUS CHRISTOS, you cannot possibly believe this.

    4) NOT ANYMORE. DOWN WITH GW. The masses have spoken, and the hobby stores relying on GW are closing. Open your eyes you ridiculous troll.

    5) At least in some sense. However, the halcyon is over and you need to quit talking to people like this.

    To those of us that GW has offended, this is offensive in the extreme.

    • Yxix

      don’t rage my friend, go quietly into that good night. By all means be angry at GW, but don’t take it out on the community. How they spend their $ and time is their business, as is where and how they find their happiness.

      • Nay, I shall not. I’ve already torn down the GW “infrastructure” in my neck of the woods and replaced it with X-Wing, FoW and Warmachine.

        Non-violence is compliance.

        GW, Wal-Mart and McDonalds all took 33% profits loss this last year – all companies we’re no longer supporting.

        They are not infallible – they are the enemy of this hobby.

        • Yxix

          I agree with almost all your points, but at this point you’re aiming your violence at the wrong group.

          • Crablezworth

            violence?

          • jeff white

            dude’s having a bad day maybe… give him a beer and turn on the table saw…

          • I used to be a GW boi like you, then I took a good hard look at how the company had treated me for 20 years. This is exactly the right group.

  • Yxix

    I feel these points are all correct. I would like to add a few more.
    #6) GW doesn’t need to balance it’s game, the community does this for them, FOR FREE.
    #7) GW doesn’t need to worry about customer recruitment or retention, the community does this for them, FOR FREE, and far far better than any of the GW stores
    #8) GW doesn’t need to support the tournament scene, the community does this for them, FOR FREE
    #9) GW doesn’t need to support FLGS, the FLGS will support GW for cheap, because of the sales they hope to get.

    • vonDietdrich

      All of these things are wrong.

      • jeff white

        sure, it is not really free…
        but it is like air – gw won’t miss it till it is gone,
        and then it will be too late…

  • Drosseph Stalin

    Wow this article. I usually expect the trolls to be in the comments.

    • Crablezworth

      Larry gets more hits when he lets one out of the asylum and gives them top billing

  • Malthrak

    GW’s decade long decline in inflation adjusted revenue would say otherwise.

    To compound that, they’ve dramatically raised prices over that same period of time out of all proportion with inflation. This means that they’re moving less product at a higher price as well.

    They’re the 400 kilo Gorilla, yes, but not the 800 Kilo Gorilla they once were. Lots of other games have exploded onto the scene in recent years, where once there was *only* Games Workshop.

    • Crablezworth

      Stop bringing facts into this.

  • crevab

    http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352786-The-Death-of-TSR&p=7766559#post7766559

    The tale of TSR, as told by the man sent to save it.

    • You GW apologists had better read this. Great find, crevab.

      • Crablezworth

        They won’t they’re too busy explaining to a total stranger about social contracts and how that means their prospective new opponent has to play them regardless of wanting to lol

    • Commissar Molotov

      “I know now what killed TSR. It wasn’t trading card games. It wasn’t Dragon Dice. It wasn’t the success of other companies. It was a near total inability to listen to its customers, hear what they were saying, and make changes to make those customers happy. TSR died because it was deaf.”

    • Crablezworth

      Thanks for posting that, it’s nice to find a good article via bols lol

    • Michael Sellwood

      Very interesting. And a really good example of why Games Workshop is still a strong company, and why TSR is dead.
      Dancey talks about listening to the customer, but a lot of the evidence is around sales, inventory reports, old stock, inefficient or non existent management accounting information. Also, forgetting core business, and not understanding what your customers want and are willing to pay for.
      Contrast this to GW:
      – Sales are by volume probably down, but by dollar it is largely stable
      – Does GW have stock sitting around from the 80’s or 90’s that is not moving but priced at full retail value? Unknown but given that with a few rare exceptions all the models on sale currently are less than 10 years old, and many have gone out of stock before re supply I would suggest unlikely
      – The fact that Games Workshop does limited edition strongly suggests they know exactly what profit they want out of a product, and have the information to enable them to do that, which points to an efficient system
      – Forgetting what their customers want? Problem with looking at internet fora / comments sections is the self selecting nature of the participants, and the small numbers making it difficult to pull valid interpretations out. However, I would suggest you don’t run a niche business for 40 odd years without some tools to find out what the people actually spending money on your product want

      • jeff white

        who is the ‘you’ of the ‘niche business’ exactly? and regardless, what ever got gw here might not get them there, unless there is to make a bubble and bust a fat retirement from the short-term financialization of what might have been an epic intergenerational cultural and countercultural force, worlwide… think the apple of wargaming if wozniak would have run the company with some artful guidance, say with help from some old volvo designers.

      • bginer

        Sales are ‘probably’ down?

        Wasn’t it 8% for last year?

  • Matthew Jordan

    I don’t think I get it. GW doesn’t need to listen to us because if it fails someone else will likely acquire it? Yah, I guess that’s likely true, but that would still mean they failed financially. Being acquired at that point would mitigate the consequences of financial ruin, but not eliminate them.
    GW has given up a lot of ground over the last 20 years and while 40K remains the biggest single game in the Miniatures market there’s no guarantee it stays that way.
    And presence wise, at least in the US, they are a shadow of their former selves. There is almost no 40K at GenCon, no Golden Demon anymore, and next to no (or no) convention support anymore. In the 90’s, when I was an Outrider, there was massive convention outreach. There were half a dozen guys in Baltimore that coordinated the Outriders, made custom tables, and did all sorts of outreach.

    • Biggest sales in gaming last year (in the U.S. at least) were NOT GW games.

      I don’t think that allows us to call GW the “single-biggest” game on the market ANYMORE.

      • Matthew Jordan

        My understanding was that 40k was still the highest grossing miniatures battle game in the US, and behind that was Xwing then WarmaHordes.

        • X-Wing is on top, followed by Warmachine. 40k is down. The list you are referring to is from the holiday season only.

    • DarkAngel

      And now we have the Internet on our phones, so none of that is required anymore

  • Crablezworth
  • Trey

    My next time to use my citadel mini’s will be with the 1 page 40k rules.

    As far as the proliferation of Knights.. why not just remake adeptus titanicus and be done with it ?

  • Phanixis

    I find this article, for lack of a better description, downright insane. Intentionally ignoring the people who pay you seems to be a one way ticket to the poor house. More to the point, there seems to be few ways on this planet proven to cause more problems than a lack of communication, in this or any other enterprise. Intentionally avoiding feedback from your customers strikes me as stupidity of the highest order. Nothing good can come from the fact that GW seems to isolate themselves in their own little bubble away from their customers and the rest of the world.

    Also, there is a very clear consensus on what customers want from GW: lower prices and better game balancing, both internally and externally. You know this, I know this, and the writer of this article damn well knows this. Stop pretending this is difficult to understand and impossible to achieve. It is not unreasonable to expect consistently fair games from a product you have invested hundreds if not thousands of dollars into along with hundreds of hours of spare time.

    • jeff white

      right on man

    • JoeofDoom

      I know it seems like it is insane, but ignoring the customers has been the CEO’s strategy for years now. He hasn’t even been quiet about it.

      I don’t understand it either, but they still just seem to be chugging along.

    • Crablezworth

      Well said

  • RexScarlet

    Reason #5 or “The Empire of Games Workshop is Burning.”
    https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L#symbol=GAW.L;range=5y

    .
    I guess telling GW with our wallets does work better, since GW does not listen… 😉

  • Simon Chatterley

    Most negative GW comments on here come from people who have “left the hobby”.

    I don’t get why you are even reading a post on GW games anymore other than to spam the same tired messages time and time again. You don’t like them, I get it.

    I don’t play any other games but 40k and Fantasy so I don’t read any articles relating to any other games. Even if I was proper bored and did I certainly wouldn’t post a load of negative waffle about the game or the company making them. Fair play to them and what they do, long may they continue.

    It’s become the equivalent of Football (or Soccer to those in the colonies) forums here in the UK. Trolls from various teams just troll. To the point that there is no actual point reading as they quickly get tired and repetitive.

    Would you do the same with cars manufacturers or the people who made your washing machine. I had a Hotpoint once and moved to a Zanussi but I don’t spam forums about my dislike of the Hotpoint. I just bought the Zanussi and happily moved on with my life and enjoyed the 10 minute shorter cycle it gave me back.

  • davepak

    As a gamer and more importantly as a business executive – NOPE – the need to listen. When your prices go up, and profits and sales are down and you have increased product release – this is very very bad. Kirby just got fired for thinking they don’t need to listen – eventually they might learn… hopefully.

    • jeff white

      people who act like 400kg gorillas make the world bananas

  • archied

    You lost me at reason 1. Of COURSE there are lots of differing opinions. Name one walk of life where there arent?
    The way to deal with that is not not to stick your fingers in your ears and keep shouting ‘im not listening!’. It would take hard work and a concerted effort by someone/s who know what theyre doing to make sense of it to steer things in the right direction.
    So yeah, it would be difficult, but that doesnt mean its not worth doing.

  • nurglitch

    Well saidl