Are The New 40k Units Over Powered?

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We finally get new 40k models, but are Skarbrand and the new Tau Titan overpowered? Come see what the Long War crew have to saying about the new units.

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Are The New 40k Units Over Powered?

Here’s some quick thoughts on the new units:

  • 600 points for the new titan that gives Tau it’s first Gargantuan Creature, with a D shooting weapon seems under costed when compared to things like the Kytan, or the Hierophant bio-titan.
  • Skarbrand has some good buffs, but he’s going to be hard pressed to keep alive unless you use some of our “out of the box” ideas from the podcast.

 

Are The New 40k Units OP – Podcast Episode 19

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  • Splicer

    I don’t mind new units being overpower. I hope they make more. This way I wont feel bad about fielding a full company will 11 razorbacks with las-cannons.

  • Skimask Mohawk

    Skarbrand didn’t change in rules…

    A better question would be “Are Rob Baer’s Articles well written?”

    • Jonathan Ellsworth

      A podcast counts as “written” or “spoken”?

      • Spacefrisian

        Well the title is written, and its contents are spoken, so both count right?

        • Muninwing

          i’d assume even he uses at least a general script…

    • Shawn

      Or, perhaps, even well thought out?

  • moonshadow101

    There is no such thing as overpowered, there is only undercosted.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      very true.

    • Ben_S

      Yup, everything in AoS is undercosted…

    • Muninwing

      i can;t get over my hate for the word “costed” to differentiate from “priced” (meaning the money involved).

      it makes sense, but it sounds like someone who didn’t know that “priced” is a word came up with it. i’m totally not a grammar-nazi either. i just hate that the term sounds so foolish.

      • moonshadow101

        …okay?

  • Eric Lindgren

    Stop acting as if Skarbrand hasnt been around for years already.

    • Spacefrisian

      I remember using Skarbrand when he first appeared in the previous Daemon Dex, i even had a wingless Bloodthirster special for him.

  • Itll die like the rest.

  • Simon Chatterley

    Did we not just have an article by Black Blow Fly yesterday on overpowered stuff?

  • OolonColluphid

    Aren’t Lords of War supposed to be Overpowered? That’s like saying the Thunderhawk is OP when it’s been around for years.
    Just because a new unit wrecks you’re crutchy Deathstar list doesn’t make them overpowered.

    • Spacefrisian

      I dont see the Avatar steamroll over the opponents army, despite it being a Lord of War.

      • OolonColluphid

        Khaine always got the short end of the stick. Like Primarch’s or Abbadon his job is to tie up or destroy CC units if you don’t take him for his Warlord traits.

        • Charon

          I also dont se the overcosted Skullwheelchair steamrolling. Or a baneblade, or the mentioned thunderhawk,…
          There are a lot of LoW that do not steamroll and sit on prohibitive point costs.

          • Muninwing

            wait until you see what Azrael does when he hits the table… he just mows through…

            oh. wait.

          • Charon

            Jep… LOw are realy really all plowing through deathstars like a hot knife through butter.

          • Azrell

            If its not steamrolling than its not really over costed is it ><

          • Charon

            It is. You can have the middle way where its price somewhat reflects its effect on the battlefield. Most LoW just dont achieve that.

    • Learn2Eel

      Many Lords of War aren’t worth taking in competitive lists as outside of being fire magnets that can soak up a lot of damage a lot of them are heavily over-priced, notably the Baneblade variants, the Lord of Skulls, etc. Also there’s a fine balance between power and points for these units as ultimately you don’t want to invest too heavily into a single model in a game designed around capturing objectives more than anything else.

      The Tau’nar sits perfectly at 600 points as being essentially the equivalent of three Riptides in terms of points but having stronger firepower, survivability, not losing effectiveness as quickly, etc. It’s price is just low enough where you can still pack a crap tonne of stuff around it to form a competitive Tau list – something that actually still exists despite MBG’s assertions…

  • Brian Griffith

    Er… but…

    Skarbrand’s 40k dataslate is identical to the unit profile in Codex: Chaos Daemons, Rob.

  • slate_blank

    Cut Rob some slack. I think he is still trying to find relevance
    after he parted ways with the forge the narrative guys… Funny how much better that podcast has become.

  • Valeli

    Are big forgeworld models like this actually common where most of you guys play 40k?

    I’ve very rarely run into them (the big titan ones, I mean) outside of special occasions, so the OP FW thing just strikes me as kind of moot…

    My personal opinion is that this sort of stuff really doesn’t belong in a regular 40k game anyways though. Titans are for Epic, I say. 40k just shouldn’t be focused on that scale.

    • Spacefrisian

      Nope, not the actuall models, but we have a blast using proxy models for FW units.

    • Retconned Legion

      I wish. Maybe one day I’ll get the chance to kill a titan.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Scarbrand’s 40k rules are… Not good. T5, 6W? Eww. Not for 230-ish points.

    Scrabrand in AoS? Amazing. Wish his 40k incarnation channeled a bit of his AoS version.

    • Shawn

      What makes Scarbrand not amazing? He’s a Demon of Khorne right? That means he gets all the benefits of being said demon of Khorne such as extra attacks and as a demon should have a initiative and weapon skill higher than anyone else in the game, so that it’s extremely difficult to hit and w/ T6 wound with anything except las, plasma, and melta. Oh, and don’t forget that pesky demon save. How broken does he need to be to be considered “Amazing”?

      • Charon

        Better than a regular bloodthirster that come with the same stats, can fly and has an option for a D weapon?

        • Learn2Eel

          Skarbrand surprisingly has the D-Strength Bloodthirster beat for damage output in most cases as he averages something ridiculous like 14 unsaved wounds against Gargantuan Creatures that lack an invulnerable save on the turn he charges (Instant Death, Fleshbane, Hatred, 9 attacks, etc). He can destroy an Imperial Knight assuming average rolls on a turn he charges too.

          His problem has never been damage output though as we all know, it is a mixture of getting him into combat, the fact that he eats up a super valuable HQ slot that is absolutely packed with far better choices, requires lots of support to get into combat let alone survive, etc.

          • Charon

            Yes he can beat him for damage output. The question here is: “Is his additional damage really needed and worth the additional weaknesses?”
            And the answer to this is no.
            In a lot of cases he will kill the unit/model twice over and waste a lot of damage just because the unit would have dropped with half the damage anyways. It is like having 9 scatterbikes in a single unit. Yes this unit has amazing 36 S6 shots. But unloading this on 5 Marines is a waste of potential.
            Same with Skarbrand. The D-Thirster does cause enough wounds to kill most things and is easier to get where you need him.

      • Learn2Eel

        You’re insane. Skarbrand has had the exact same rule-set since 2013 and he is as irrelevant now as he was back then. He’s even worse now in 7th Edition because armies are more mobile on a whole and pack in even more heavy firepower. Good luck ever charging him into anything relevant against a decent player.

    • LordKrungharr

      Isn’t Skarbrand T6 w 5 wounds? I think he must be deepstruck, off an Icon, with tons of other friendly models poised to charge simultaneously to benefit from his big bubble of Hatred and Rage. Hopefully some Skullcannons also came in to give the Flesh Hounds and Heralds grenades, then the party can start. Then turn 3 he can charge and cleave anything apart.

      • Learn2Eel

        It then comes down to how much are you Deep Striking, making sure you have multiple units with Musicians and ICons and ensuring those specific units arrive quickly as otherwise most armies will have one-two-three turns to destroy the Daemon ground forces. Investing into a bomb style tactic like that wouldn’t be cheap either if you want to make it anywhere decent.

        For most armies though, Skarbrand is mostly a non-factor. A standard competitive Eldar army is pretty much impossible to catch for poor old Skarbrand and will get shredded by their basic Troops choices. In any Daemon match-up Skarbrand will usually be the least worrying threat, especially if you invest Grimoire/Cursed Earth/etc onto him.

  • chip6793

    Do people actually sit there and listen to these guys for the ENTIRE hour!!!!

    Ok, I’m sure there are a lot of haters out there about the Tau, but you do realize that when they use a marker light, it’s ONLY AGAINST ONE UNIT right?

    Sorry guys, sounds like a lot of whining to me. Personally, Thomas’ post the other day was much better, and made a lot more sense.

    • 6Cobra

      Serious question: what book are those bio titan rules in? I pretty much just play Horus Heresy, but my son is starting Tyranids and I’m thinking of getting him a Heirophant for Xmas..

      • Brother Ariman

        Imperial Armour Volume IV: The Aphelion Project 2nd Edition. Though be warned the first poster over exaggerated the bio-titan for 25 to 50 points more it may select ONE of the following: 1. Acid
        blood large blast in melee, 2. 20 model transport capacity, 3. Skyfire
        weapon, 4. hellstorm torrent, or 5. spore mine launcher. So it only gets 3 weapons to fire max in the shooting phase and if it does that it loses the transport ability. Also it only has a 6++ invulnerable save compared to the tau’s 4++/5++

        • LordKrungharr

          For only twice the points cost too 🙂

    • Brother Ariman

      Have you read the hieophant bio-titan rules? Because I have with the book right in front of me. Imperial Armour Volume IV: The Anphelion Project 2nd Edition. or 25 to 50 points more it may select ONE of the following: 1. Acid blood large blast in melee, 2. 20 model transport capacity, 3. Skyfire weapon, 4. hellstorm torrent, or 5. spore mine launcher.

      • chip6793

        My apologies Ariman, I was reading the rules at 1am and was tired. You’re correct.

        That being said, it’s still potentially a big monster. Admittedly though, without all of the options, it’s not as OP I first thought.

    • Shawn

      And I bet it’s not difficult to spam marker lights, and just pick off units. Regardless, even if what you say was true, that would still be one guaranteed dead unit every turn. We’ll just focus fire on that one unit, never mind that they have the bes armor in the game, have cover, and it’s night time, just count them dead.

      • chip6793

        There are a few ways to get marker lights. Pathfinders, which are easy to kill and take up a fast attack slot, drones, which are more expensive than pathfinders, but only have a bs of 2, Skyray, which isn’t too bad, but takes up a heavy slot, sniper drone team, which also takes up a heavy slot and one of the aircraft… Those are from the codex, there are also commander R’Alai, who’s drones are pretty cool to be honest, and of course, everyone’s favorite, Tetra’s, which are also fast attack.

        Yes, you,can spam them, but you’ll lose firepower. Don’t forget, everything takes points to use…what we have to give up to use them is a very big question.

        Also, don’t forget that in order to use those marker lights, you have to hit first… There are a few units that can hit reliably, but a lot of people don’t take them on a regular basis. Me personally, I usually take R’Alai, 1-2 pathfinder teams of 5 and a drone team of 4, which I attach to a commander. That’s potentially 3 or 4 targets, as long as I am able to get hits enough to do something useful.

        Further, it only allows ONE unit from each grouping of lights, to use the benefit. I fully agree that you can have that new monster use a grouping to hit an enemy unit, but the majority of the platforms that carry them, aren’t that tough to begin with. Shoot them, and you take away any possible support that can be had from them.

        • Learn2Eel

          Skyrays and one Mark’o unit actually gives a Tau list all the Markerlights it will ever need plus a ridiculous amount of burst firepower.

    • Learn2Eel

      The Bio-Titan can only have one out of the Hellstorm Template, Skyfire or Transport Capacity upgrades. Even then, it is base 1000 points for weaker survivability than the 600 point Tau’nar, and its’ firepower is greatly inferior. I don’t know how you get 12 Strength 10 attacks on the charge, it gets 10 on the charge (8 base, 2 melee weapons, charge).

      The difference between a 4+ invulnerable save against shooting really makes all the difference in the world for the two models; the Tau’nar takes forever to kill from Graviton and Destroyer weapons, the same is not true of the Hierophant.

      Additionally, the Hierophant is melee-oriented and pretty much has to move into cover to get a decent save against those weapons meaning it gets slowed by at least half of its total movement, something the Tau’nar never has to worry about.

      The Hierophant is not priced according to its abilities, it is horrendously over-priced and there isn’t a single competitive player that would tell you otherwise. They are far too easily countered and don’t compare at all well to the Imperial Titans, the Tau’nar, the Eldar Titans and even the Harridan.

  • King Muddah Effin Brandon

    There has been absolutely no unit or list that has survived my second encounter with them. Enjoy your first win, it shall be your last… #poorpoorcastigatorknight .

  • zeno666

    New stuff beeing better than old stuff in a GW game, forcing people with old stuff to buy new stuff to stay in the game!?
    Noooo, really!!?

    Welcome to the last 15 years 🙂

    • Retconned Legion

      I’m as shocked as you are. It’s almost like it’s some kind of business plan or something. I mean just compare it to all the companies that didn’t make their new stuff appealing. Oh wait, they all shut down.

      • zeno666

        Hmm odd, for me those companies still show up.
        Perhaps its your connection in that basement thats acting up again.
        Better tell your mom about it. You’ll need some in how the real world works.

        • Retconned Legion

          My connections just fine thanks. I also hate to break it to you but we don’t all live our mum’s, your living situation isn’t the norm.

      • Dave

        There are other ways to make new stuff compelling than breaking the game. The OP release cycle seems to be a big part of customer angst. If pay to advantage/win is a fun part of the hobby for you, than have at it. But lets not pretend that it’s the only way for a game system to survive. In fact, I’d say that it’s slowing killing the game and hobby. Most other systems actually try to keep a semblance of balance. New releases sell because they offer more strategic options or are simply cool minis.

        • Retconned Legion

          Where did I say it was a fun part of the hobby? And where exactly did I mention I was in favour?

          Companies that don’t make their new products more appealing than their old ones don’t survive. It’s simply a fact of business.

          • Dave

            Companies that increasingly depend on existing customer sales rather than new customers are forced to entice that base with gimicks. That’s not a fact of business, it’s a failure of leadership and corporate planning. It’s also very indicative of trouble. That is GWs situation not the industry as a whole.

    • Learn2Eel

      There are a lot of examples that go the other way too though, meaning it is probably more down to inconsistent rules writers as we all know. Every codex has its’ dud units.

  • Retconned Legion

    Over powered, under powered, I don’t really give a stuff as long as it looks good on the table I don’t care what my opponent uses. Win or lose, i’ll have fun and that’s all I care about.

  • Learn2Eel

    Yeah, there’s nothing to see here with regards to Skarbrand. It even says in the White Dwarf that his rules are identical to the Codex version, they merely included it as a data-slate in the White Dwarf for ease of viewing and so that you can add him to your armies/games without needing the codex (hooray for GW!).

    The Tau’nar on the other hand….myself, Reecius/Frankie and the Frontline Gaming guys, most tournament players and my local regulars all agree this thing is way too good for 600 points. It compares well to the Eldar and Imperial Titans for its points cost and has less actual viable counters to it than even those models.

    I recall Goatboy tried to dismiss it as being hard-countered by grav-spam but it still takes a ridiculous amount to finish it as others in the community have worked out via math-hammer – your average 6-strong Centurion Devastator unit can’t kill it in a single round even if they are in-range, are benefiting from the Devastator Combat Doctrine and using their Grav-Amps. For 600 points…..ugh.

    Its firepower is absolutely no joke either, especially with Markerlight support. When it first released I was convinced the Ion weapons were better for the range but seeing as most armies’ way of dealing with it involves getting up right close and personal on the first turn, I’m thinking the melta weapons are the way to go to punish early aggression from opponents.

    I definitely agree with the ITC ban for it as it is essentially an under-priced but more static version of a Revenant that is generally harder to kill and features comparable firepower. None of the big titans are allowed in ITC for a very good reason and it seems like they agree with me that is one of the most ridiculous given its points cost. The Tau’nar would actually be perfectly fair if it was say 900 points, at the very least it would still be a strong but not heavily under-priced unit.

  • Bradley Macduff

    i think that games workshop no longer cares about rules and that we are lucky to have rules at all, i wouldnt be surprised that if GW had their way AoS wouldnt have rules it would be models and rulebooks. games-workshop i think is making this move for one of two reasons, 1) they are making a profit off the company tanking, the second they remove rules out from under their products the domino’s fall over and the tower crumbles. perhaps they are going to get some serious payoff for killing GW financially such as market fixing 2) they think that they are selling model trains, not games of any kind and they are doomed to die if they honestly think that if their going down that path they deserve to die because their idiots.

    this explains the arms and armor acceleration we have going on as well as their extreme responses in that investor call, games workshop has strayed so far from the path that it may already be too late to do anything about it.

  • Azrell

    yes. next question.

  • Stephen Jackson

    If they wanted people to fight over rules they are getting it. The Tau titan being a gargantuan creature needs to be FAQED or people will keep arguing. 1st thing needing faq is how many weapons it fires and the other is the VDS firing overwatch with all the weapons in the system

  • jeff white

    are we going to put up with this lousy bs?