Are These Rules To Fix Age of Sigmar?

 

stormcast-hammer

Do you want points to go with your Age of Sigmar models? If so come see what the group “Last Edition” has cooked up rules wise for every faction in AoS.

No they’re not a boy band, the folks calling themselves “Last Edition” is a group of Fantasy players turned Age of Sigmarites that are trying to make things right with the new game.

So if you’re looking for points to use for your AoS models, to make the game even more “fair and balanced”

Via aoscomp.org

“Welcome to aoscomp.org, your best source for model points costs for Age of Sigmar. aoscomp.org is a community driven project, and is dependent on your feedback in order to create as fair and balanced a points system as possible. Please review the Army lists below and take some time to leave feedback in the polls if you find units that are over- or under costed.

The pointssystem is developed by “Last Edition””

And here’s the full rules packet for all the factions, although you can get each one individually over on their main site.

aos-comp-001

AoS Players Handbook PDF

aos-comp-002

AoS Factions

 

 

Looks like a solid set of point values to me.

Hey Sigmar Fans, have you tried them out yet?

Long War Episode 30- How to Hobby During The Holidays

  • JN7

    It’s sad when fans have to make up rules because the company is too lame to do it.

    • Alhazred TheMad

      It’s sad that nearly a year later angsty gamers are still treating AoS like their prom date that walked out on them. Get over it already, or move the heck on. Anything else is just sad.

      • PsychosisPC

        Nah, he has a legit point, that’s why many of us don’t play that game.

        • Xodis

          Not really, since fans are still having to make up rules to a game with the most rules ever lol

          • frankelee

            What?

          • Xodis

            Not really, since fans are still having to make up rules to a game with the most rules ever lol

          • frankelee

            That’s what I thought.

          • Xodis

            Good, glad that second post cleared it up.

          • Christopher Cant

            You made me truly laugh out loud 😀

          • Muninwing

            “‘What’ ain’t no country I’ve ever heard of. They speak English in What?”

        • Bradley Macduff

          if the rules changed you wouldnt go play. be a man and admit it, its cool we wont judge you for saying your out

          • ZeeLobby

            I would in a heartbeat. Along with our whole gaming crew that left and still have the minis. Don’t be so daft to assume for others…

          • PsychosisPC

            If the rules changed back to 6th Edition, I would. BUT then I’ll likely wake up a billionaire tomorrow.

      • Muninwing

        you’re hearing the wrong complaint.

        if AoS hadn’t died a quick death around here and people were still playing, i’d have the same complaint. it’s gotten no real attention save “everyone should play chaos vs our new doodz”

        and there are gaps that make it seem like it was rushed, or released incomplete.

        thus… it *IS* really sad that other people have to do GW’s job for them, because they as a company cannot be bothered to do it themselves.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          No I fully agree, it was rushed and there are gaps. When the only real new offering was Stormcast I call that a soft launch. But the new dwarf line look amazing, and more is in the pipeline. Few saw the value in Warmachine when it first started either, but in time it’s become a juggernaut too. In five years it’ll be more valued then now.

          • Jiraya

            AoS Convinced me to move over to PP games, Geedub can now eat a D, seeing as in 40K they hand that out like a pedo does candy outta his van.

          • Muninwing

            or it’ll fail, given how much support they lost from their established players on a bargain to try to draw in new players that was poorly-conceived.

            we shall see.

            i, for the record, hope it works. i hope they manage to make it what it isn’t right now, because “soft launch” is putting it mildly.

            their fluff is some of the worst i’ve read. the world is unrealized and barely sensical. the recycling of names from WHF is ridiculous. many of the changes actually show that they do not understand the world they’ve inherited from better writers.

            i don;t denigrate others for having fun with it. i don’t like to troll about it. but JN7 has a stark point that remains relevant to anyone who bought into that world: that they replaced a functional game with concurrently less functional variants, then rather than fix it they played the blame game and torched it to the ground like children. then, they replaced it with something fundamentally different from what many of us bought in for — and did so with a pitifully half-constructed game.

            i’ve said from the beginning that it smacks of a poorly-conceived panic move. but they’ve had months and months to fix it, and still no significant development except for new models.

            which are beautiful.

            but for me, unplayable. so that’s irrelevant.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            I actually do agree that the setting is rolling train wreck. An infinite universe may work for Magic, but its lacking polish here. Every story I’ve read has been an independent setting almost apart from a consensus that it’s somewhere in the realm of fire, or death, etc.

            Thing is that the Old World is immortal despite GW. Every Specialist Game that returns now, from Mordhiem to Bloodbowl (canical or not) is going to have to answer the question of whether it’s set in the realms or the Old World. If they stuck with the Old World they ll have to admit it’s a stronger setting than the replacement and then they’ll still have to keep it alive in some way. Personally I don’t think GW will change them. I think Stormcasts would make a good BB team though 😉

          • Muninwing

            see… they had the ability to do a number of great things… yet nobody on the creative staff managed to run with one of them.

            they could have done a reinvention of a new world that resembled the old one, but with new nations, politics, allegiances, and groups… and their seeds of descendancy shaped them into something similar to what used to be…

            they could have created a world of many “realms” as they tried (but actually defining “realm” in a sensical manner), and shown how each was shaped individually by a wind of magic into its own complicated ideal

            they could have left 99% of the world unknown, but defined a small range of area almost as a protagonist — the new version of the Empire, who know little of what else lies out there save legends of other races to escape “the terror,” who have lived in peace and relative prosperity for a while in that isolation… but when the forces of Khorne began to march, that land was used as a place of defense and rally by the newly-minted Stormcast… though the people may have resented their interference, and struggles could come of their very presence as well… and as new players involved, it complicates and darkens old allegiances… and as they move outward and more is discovered about the world, the former denizens and older cultures could be unearthed and perhaps recruited by the “last peoples” making their final stand.

            they published all those warscrolls to not completely lose old players, but did not bother to explain where all those kinds of people (etc) would be from, or why they would be fighting.

            even just releasing an atlas would have helped contextualize the setting.

            one theory circulating is that AoS was never meant to be a longtime long-lasting game, but enough overhaul would need doing after GW screwed up WHF with 7th and 8th that a major overhaul would probably create strife… so they pulled a “New Coke” as a temporary replacement until they can get the “classic” version in place. that way, people won’t react strongly to the differences.

          • Geko747

            Can you see into the future or something? No one knows what GW are going to do. How do you know that in 5 years time this new world will have all the politics and nations that you crave?

            How long did it take them to get WHFB to the point that it was at. AoS is the start as we are seeing it will expand over the years. Slating it now when it is clearly not ever 25% complete is just pathetic.

          • Muninwing

            see… this is where expectations are different for different people.

            you are willing to offer an excuse for them to have released an incomplete product. i am not.

            you are willing to look at the start of the industry when nobody was creating fleshed-out products, and compare now to then.

            i am looking at their current competition. warmachine was more fleshed out when it was released. most other games too. because they knew what their competition was, and had to rise to the current state of the industry.

            a new computer company cannot release buggy, inefficient “apple lisa” products and stay in business, even if apple did it back in the day. heck, sega released a quality product ahead of its time that was negatively received for foolish reasons (like the location of the cord on the controllers), and it nearly killed an established company when compared to their competition.

            so why should GW get special consideration here?

            the fluff is one of the major selling points of GW stuff as opposed to others. so torching what they had and replacing it with virtually nothing is an instant lack of interest from a not-small portion of the consumer base. particularly formerly loyal customers.

            so no… i have no need to see the future to know that they screwed up.

          • Geko747

            I’m sure when WHFB first was released it contained little more than as AoS does now. How do you know AoS doesn’t have all of this in the pipeline, but you know how they love to drip feed their releases. Other companies just whacked what they had on a plate and let people get on with it. GW doesn’t need to do that as they already have a 8th edition fan base and people will buy models for that. They have 30k 40k upcoming board games etc. They don’t need to release it all in one go. They can make people wait. Release one thing let people eat it up, then release another when their wallets have recovered. Put it all out in the first month people will get bored, they will only buy so many then ignore the rest. Drip feed us and the products will sell. Its an annoyingly good tactic to part us with our money. The way you talk is as if you are some all knowing psychic, I for one love it and so do many people I know, none of which was buying any fantasy products during WHFB. So I know they haven’t messed up, its working and will eventually be bigger than WHFB. You may not like it still but the new players will love it.

            And as for computer companies releasing good products have you ever played an EA game on release date? Skyrim was all over the place. Fallout 4 needed a patch on day 1. All companies are forever failing to release completed computer software. Even phones come with updates to stop Gary in the corner hacking it and stealing all your details.

          • Muninwing

            what is the phrase… “drinking the kool-aid?”

            no. just… no.

            we are not talking model releases.

            we are talking basic information. where are these battles taking place? if i play Empire, where are my people from now? if i play Beastmen, where do they live?

            from a modeling perspective… can i put snow on the bases? how much technology do the humans (or anyone else) have?

            where are these heroes from?

            i don’t want ALL THE INFO either. i want enough to imply more. think of archaeology… we don;t learn about a whole society at once, but finding ruins and remains is a spark for the imagination.

            what i do know is that if all i know about is that there are many worlds… but even the one that i’m playing in doesn’t have any sort of definition to it… then i’m not going to create a themed force from that world, i’m not going to invest in new models for a project in that world, and i’m not going to believe that such a situation will last.

            and every release not addressing the issues leaves me with less and less confidence that they will ever do so.

          • Geko747

            The majority of the points you have made are on the basis that this is a finished product. I can see years of releases ahead of this with new story lines and new characters slowly being released into the world. To say that the story is weak when you are only 50 pages into a 2000 page book would be silly.
            I’m not saying I like the fluff at all. So far comparing any short story from AoS to the old world is just shockingly bad. I have always said that from the start. But I can see its potential, but then that’s from a reading point of view. When I play battles even in 8th the fluff would never make its way into a standard game unless you found some one who would play a scenario based battle with a back story, hardly ever happens in my area more tourney play.
            It was just war against a rival. The same with say bolt action or saga. You have a basic knowledge of the land and why they are fighting and you go to war. We have that now with AoS. Wondering about if you can put snow on your base is pointless, if you did that and the opponent had lava bases with a woodland gaming mat, do you think that takes something away from the game? In the old world how do you explain lizards fighting ogres, the fluff made it pretty clear they never really ventured out of lustria. You had to just fling some random idea that it was part of the old ones plan.
            With AoS granted the empire have no story atm, but at least they have given you the rules tongue every unit for now. They will soon wrote them into the story and have a host of new units to go with them. All of excellent quality. Yes some are below average but when they get then right such as Skarbrand, Nagash, vandus, khul, retributers etc they look epic. No other company compares.
            But the rules for 8th made what could be an enjoyable game into a tragic argument and spending half the game buried in books and print outs of faqs to figure out what to do. Now we are given freedom within the rules and with a skirmish setting to take the irritation out of the game.
            But I understand why you feel so let down, this is a very bold move by GW and was always going to divide their fanbase. I for one welcome the change and feel optimistic about what is to come. If you want to hate it and belittle people that actually think it’s a good game then carry on. I just hope that when it truly takes off and they build the world you crave then you will give it another go.

          • Muninwing

            actually… no. it is based on the fact that it was released as a woefully incomplete product that was embarrassingly written were it actually considered ready for release.

            part of my defense of GW is that i do not believe that it was a ready release, and that they rushed out of panic. but that panic also came from the CEOs and Sales actively ignoring their own responsibilitites and denying their own culpability.

            you say it’s “50 pages into a 2000 page book”

            i say it’s “the first 200 page book in a series”

            you know what happens when an author plans a trilogy, but the first one doesn’t sell? they don’t write the second one, and even if they do nobody publishes it.

            the first chapter of a book — sometimes even the first couple pages — being unreadable usually makes a reader put the book down.

            “shockingly bad” is what i see not just as the quality of the writing, but much of the rules, some of the gameplay, the omissions of proper balancing mechanics… and if even months later people are still trying to “fix” the product, it shows just how flawed that product is.

            aside from fanboyship, and neat looking (but more expensive) models (despite supposedly decreasing the cost due to their “barrier to entry prohibits new players” reasoning to change to AoS), what is the current appeal?

            is it fun? lots of games are fun. will is still be fun later? already we are seeing dropping interest. writing new fluff the same quality as the old stuff would seem like a comparable draw, but they screwed that pooch pretty quickly.

            so what past their old relationship makes this work?

          • Muninwing

            and every time a game is released needing a patch on day one, the consumers get mad.

            i’m not a psychic. you’ve really doubled down on that image, but it’s both a condescending one and an easy way to dismiss an opinion you seem to not understand.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            to play devils advocate, WFB and most of GW’s or any companies games always start rough and build up and take years to esablish themselves unless they were super crazy awesome out the gate. Honestly so many games come and go faster than even AoS and no one bats an eye. Things like Mutant Chronicles keeps coming back like a bad rash and I wish that one would stay dead. This is just like when we went from second ed of 40k to third with all those annoying stop gaps that got rushed out and took a long time to correct. Hell sisters didn’t even get corrected till 4th and had to use the most bland rules. Which half the weapons were missing in the darn brb despite being on the unit entries!

            Now, here comes the counterpoint and agreement portion with you. Too many people were tied to the old fluff, and too many people are attached to things. GW decided not to eliminate everything and most of those are stop gaps till the redo the world and that doesn’t settle well with some. As we spoke of WWP elsewhere. If you destroy a world, destroy it completely and have a whole new vision, no carry overs.

            Also in this day and age with all the abilities to place things online and study markets like never before and now that they have a pedigree in making games we expect more from them.

            Personally the tournament scene for fantasy ended with seventh edition in my area and every single game has been agreed upon prior, I have not had a pickup game in almost ten years. Eighth edition was god awful to me. AoS actually brought fantasy back in my region in a huge way, either by causing other systems to gain popularity as a fall out (which is funny since no one was playing anyways) or because many love the skirmish quality and smaller scale.

            Time will tell, and honestly they are dripping rules out like Chinese water torture, eventually that drop will become a lake

          • Muninwing

            yes. there is something to be said for the buildup of setting rather than trying to debut it all at once.

            for instance, i have not been able to get into the Gates of Antares AT ALL due to the fluff being the kind of scifi i just don’t like.

            but… i’d play Infinity based on the interesting backdrop alone. and anyone who makes a Cthulhu-esque minis game (even at skirmish level!) that successfully incorporates the mood and the other setting elements well will have my whole piggybank. were i guaranteed people to play with, i’d love to pick up Kingdomdeath’s not-porny models to play the game they’ve created.

            at the same time… WHF and 40k did their “growing up” (fixing issues, becoming more the game they would later be, and extrapolation/growing/deepening of fluff) at a time when they could do as they pleased. there were realistically no competitors. that is no longer the case.

            if their primary worry is that their competitors are going to catch up, then releasing a product that is inferior is a major problem, regardless of “giving it time to grow” or any other reason *why* it might be seen as inferior.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Totally agree. That’s the thing, so many kids on the block who can pander to your whims! So many genres and niches now. Steampunk, horror, victorian, naval, space, skirmish, big battle. Etc. The only problem is getting all your mates to like the same thing! My wallet can only shed so many dollars, and a man can only get so erect.

          • Shawn

            I will disagree, somewhat. I do like the fluff and it is fully conceived in my opinion, there might not be a whole lot fully realized through products and other narratives. AoS is, in my opinion, when it came out a beta test: Here are the basics, tell us what you think, and we’ll (GW) add on to it. I’m sure at one point it will reach the “I need to have a fortune” to play scale, but for now its simpler and is fun to play. Point costs, in AoS, so far as I’ve seen, just with the starter at least, are not necessary. And to be honest, don’t work much better in 40k. Now i didn’t play Fantasy, but it seems they didn’t work in Fantasy all that great either.

          • Muninwing

            is your first argument “it’s all there, just not, and maybe it is, but they just aren’t showing us”

            because you’re talking about a simplistic and poorly-engineered world being complete, and maybe better than it seems but GW cannot be bothered to tell us how.

            and in the second part… is your argument “a badly-used system that is fixable (but those who could do so cannot be bothered to do so) is flawed, so it’s better to just have no system instead” — because there’s a whole host of logical issues with that one.

          • Shawn

            The first part yes. They are rolling out armies and rules with the fluff and narrative. They have a plan in place and are working on gettin stuff out. I’m pretty sure GW has a completely realized world. Waht they are doing is rolling both rules and models out a little at a time in conjunction with their narratives (books, etc.). The difference is that they’re allowing for improvement. They could have written compelte and detailed rules and said tough, and that be the end of it, but they do want it to succeed, so they present a few rules and see what everyone wants, and build upon that. Eventually you’ll see the large armies with the point costs, but they don’t want to turn it unto another, what they see as, failed fantasy setting, so everything a little at a time.

            The idea that AoS is a “simplistic and poorly engineered world” is simply an opinion I disagree with. AoS doesn’t have 30 years of development compared to WHF to make a reasoned and fair comparison. And I am guessing there wasn’t enough interest by new fans or enough of their own corporate IP to save the Old World. I happen to like what they’ve done. I enjoy the game, the models and the books. Even the Old World started as a New World once long ago.

          • Muninwing

            you are “pretty sure”

            i am not.

            you see the world as fully realized, despite having no history, no scale, no maps that detail. so i have no idea how you can make those assumptions.

            you assume that GW thinks of the Old World as a failure… despite that being what is contracted out for other 3rd party games… and conflicting sales numbers for AoS (potentially being terrible), and the specialist games set in that old world coming back… etc. no — the setting was not the problem.

            and they are releasing a game into a market with others that have fully-realized and far more detailed worlds. even Warmachine had more information in terms of locations and history than AoS does. if that’s an important aspect (and it is critical to some people), then they failed horribly.

            it’s a lot of excuses for things that an established company should have known better than to do.

          • Geko747

            The story had to end eventually Archaon was the lord of the end times, the whole point was he would end the world. If they never did end the world everyone would be up in arms that the whole point of the story for the last 15 years was just left to rot. If Archaon had failed then it would be another insult to the story everyone loved. They finished the Warhammer world in the way that it was meant to go. May not be everyone’s cup of tea but it was always going to happen. Now we have a new world, new characters to appear new allegiances.

          • Muninwing

            it’s not a story, it’s a setting.

            ET was rushed too… it should have been a cash cow for GW, a multi-year event that caused everyone to break out their old armies and play again for one last hurrah. instead, each phase passed quickly into the next, and anyone who had something going on at that point missed them.

            then AoS comes along and as a setting it’s pretty much nonexistent past copy-pasting from the writing of better minds — whether those be Skalds or the older developers who left to pursue better projects.

            the story can end. that’s fine. or it can keep going as it is, poised on the verge of disaster. there’s no need for the setting to proceed unless the setting is actively being added to by the players (and that was not happening).

            what’s more… Flames of War does not need to advance their timeline… Bolt Action does not need to advance their timeline. why would WHF? more than that — why couldn’t resources have been released for earlier timelines?

            the Age of Nagash could have been a setting. the Coming of Chaos could have been a setting. there’s plenty of history that could have been explored — unlike the zero history provided for AoS — and that was a major asset.

            funny enough, you mention “new characters” — but i see all the old names coming back, and repeating. and the focus on named pre-created protagonists was also one of the reasons for failure. it became more like a story with those playable characters doing their thing.

          • Shawn

            You make some valid points. GW’s business savvy has never been a good one, but for something that’s just started I think there is enough history to get, at least, me interested. It all started with the Old World, then there Was the End Times, and now Age of Sigmar. No detailed chronicle of the Time between the End and Now, but there might not be. It could all be lost to obscurity or myth. The history and events, to me at least, are secrets that could be revealed or rediscovered once Sigmar gets a foothold back in the mortal realms. I have thus been okay without any super-detailed history at present.

          • Muninwing

            i don’t want super-detailed.

            i want any idea of what the setting really is, past some middle schooler’s d&d campaign.

            i love the idea of “lost to obscurity and myth” — buuuuuut what are those myths? what is rumored to have been? who is the next country over yonder? where are we now? who is in charge, and what is the political situation? how did that get disrupted with the arrival of the angel/spacemarine/einherjar that are the copy-pasted stormcast?

            there’s a difference between a deliberately sparse initial world that provides freedom for designers to expand, and a strangely empty setting without basic definition to move forward from.

            the mystery and allure of ruins, the implications of past civilization, the ability to learn about the current situation (past the “sigmar is doing these things” stuff, or the “chaos is doing these things” stuff), all of that has significant weight and gravity to it, that AoS just hasn’t captured.

          • Geko747

            Its an unfinished world, simple as that. It took WHFB years to get as developed as it was. They had 8 whole editions to expand on the fluff. So far AoS has barely got out the starting block. Over the years the game will grow the fluff will change, we will see first hand the world being created and the races rising up to over throw chaos and then the new age of man will start. Just give it time. You say other games have fully realised worlds, but they all had to start somewhere, they all started with minimal fluff but it was built on over the years, how can you claim the sales projected are going to be terrible seen as though GW has released statements to say that it is doing better than expected.

            What would you prefer them to do with a points value?> Just make up some random points again like 8th that made whole units worthless to take, everyone will end up sticking to the same lists like before. The sales of certain models will plummet like before, which is the main reason WHFB died, was because these so called loyal fans never bothered to buy any of GW’s products. They had their army, it was point perfect, adding in that Troglodon would hinder the list rather than better it. So points values mean nothing. It gives people like you some form of imaginary balance, which crushed the game in the first place.

            Would you prefer they just axed the game altogether because that would be the only other option as WHFB made no money for the company and at the end of the day its a company out to make money not to please people like yourself.

          • Muninwing

            it’s clear that you are just repeating what GW’s press releases say. it’s also clear that you do not seem to understand the finer points of the issue BECAUSE you haven’t considered anything past what GW has released. but they sabotaged half their line in favor of management not admitting their mistakes, so they are not necessarily to be taken at face value.

            yes. but… i’m the consumer. and i’m a good example of a large portion of the consumer base. thus, keeping me (as a symbol of all like me with cash to spend and no with other options to spend upon instead) happy with the product.

            i would have bought a 9th ed rulebook. i would have looked at my army, seen how it played, and invested in a new unit or two. if i didn’t like how they played, but i liked the game i would have gone to one of the many projects i have shelved — and anything i did not have would have been a new purchase.

            instead, i will purchase nothing. even if i was enthused about AoS (it’s kinda boring, unchallenging, and utterly uninspired), i would have just fielded the old units and models that i already have, meaning that i would make ZERO new purchases since the rules are free. so if that’s their supposed reason for the de-boot, then it’s a fundamentally flawed response to the issue.

            GW has a major asset — their fluff. AoS not only killed that fluff, and the game it belonged to, but it didn’t bother trying to fill the gap left behind. and already, players are flocking to other games. so if they wanted to make money because pleasing me personally is foolish, all the people like me have spoken with their playing and their purchasing. despite your vague and undetailed single example of potential success (that, by being vague, implies its own dishonesty).

            AoS was an incomplete product when it was released. excuse it all you want, though, because the parts that are finished are of lesser quality than most of what is currently available on the market.

          • euansmith

            Fingers crossed… though, in the meantime, I was reading my copy of “Dragon Rampant” last night at working out how to field my AoS Starter Set minis in that game.

          • Muninwing

            that makes me wonder… perhaps the issue is that it’s become too far removed from its initial material.

            dragon rampant looks neat. it reminds me of when TSR re-released Chainmail during AD&D’s 2nd edition days, and their box set had cardboard shapes to represent units.

            i wonder if AoS would have been more successful if they had, along with dropping it down in model count to become more of a skirmish-style game, added more of an individual character feel to it. or, instead, made the narrative they opened with more focused in one vein only.

            as much as i want more info on the new world they have created, i would have been happy with the new setting had they started with:

            “there are supposedly other realms… there have been civilizations before this one… but all we know is that this one city is a meeting-place of every refugee and castoff from the beginning of time… and it sits at the center of a small but safe country in a secluded land of peace. then, the Storm cast came, heralds of a war we knew nothing of, and it changed our lives forever”

            introduce them to the players as they were introduced to the people they defended.

            then, gradually fill in the extended places as they become relevant to a planned and set plot-arc. use the “you can play your old models” as a catch-all and a beginning, but then within a year’s time have the melting-pot seed other areas and grow into factions.

            if you;re going to start at the beginning, start like a unique novel, not like a new edition of the same old thing.

          • euansmith

            Imagine how cool it would have been if they had introduced Stormcast as individual mysterious heroes and then slowly had more and more of them turning up until you were able to field “Wow! An entire unit of FIVE Stormcast Eternal Hammernators!”

          • Muninwing

            that… would have been awesome.

            imagine an old game of functional (pre-8th, no daemons) WHF where the other army consisted of five dudes, and it was evenly matched.

            or an epic hero taking a charge from an elder dragon, or a giant, or a carnosaur? and surviving?

            even without that… imagine if 9th had debuted as an alternative timeline to the ET… and what stopped ET from happening was the appearance of these mysterious mighty faceless heroes that dropped out of the sky to lead the armies of the chaos resistance… and then amped-up ch”i liked this… minus these issues… and provided we played this way to remove this needless power creep nonsense from the game…”

            that’s always been my issue with WHF. so much potential, so many ways it has fallen short. then, so many easy fixes, and so many ways they didn’t bother to fix it.

            i also got involved under the checkers-and-chess analogy style thinking. people played WHF because it was more complicated and in-depth for the average pitched battle. it was a great compromise between 40k and historicals.

            … and now it’s a skirmish game instead. the opposite end of the scale that it was on before.

            defeats the purpose of most of my purchases. aos heroes showed up as responses. then they resolved themselves into a unified force instead of augmentations of the existing, and their presence redrew political lines around the world.

            ahhh…. so many missed opportunities. so many dropped balls.

          • Geko747

            Everyone can sit there and make up there own story line or where it should have gone. Just because you think your idea is better does not make it so. What you just came out with sounds like the worst setting I have ever heard of. I like what they have now, so bring on the waves of AoS releases ill help keep GW afloat by buying the all, and have great fun building/painting and reading up on this new world.

          • Muninwing

            and now we get petty to avoid the point. good to know.

            i’m glad that you (someone, really) likes the new “setting” and its emptiness.

            my point is that they didn’t so much “continue the storyline” as they “dropped the ball” and “replaced a setting with an undeveloped idea” that you seem to have eaten up without bothering to compare.

          • Hedwerx

            Isn’t that just herohammer? I thought people didn’t like it when a character figure could take on a whole unit it in combat?

          • euansmith

            Like in 40k?

          • Muninwing

            hahaha… true true.

            i don’t think that every hero should. but if someday GW came out with a balanced system, then those “heroes of legend” that are the Stormcast should be able to stand toe-to-toe with even greater foes than when they were alive.

            and if a viking on a bridge can take out 40 saxons himself, or a crazy drunken chinese hero with devotion to his sworn brother could multiply that by five, then imagine what a metal suit of armor possessed by a legendary hero created by a divinely-created being could do…

          • Muninwing

            well, in 7th it’s partially what they did with monstrous creatures. HElf lists with multiple dragons breaking the battle-lines, the nigh-unkillable DElf Hydra, and the like.

            i think that there could be equivalents that worked. but again, that’s be a game design issue. what do we really think that the elder heroes of the past, clad in magic armor and imbued with power from a god, should actually be able to do?

      • blackbloodshaman

        The dead horse beatings must stop, AoS flopped get over it.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          It’s been a year, and last report on this site said that GW was in the black and was happy with AoS. Hate or not the public offering was accepted.

          • Valeli

            You clearly are aware of this, but regardless I’ll point out that this report didn’t say anything specific and exciting about AoS sales vs other GW products, like Heresy or new Space Marines.

            Obviously neither of those sold much though, right?

          • Xodis

            Very true, so either normal 40K/HH sales increased or WHFB/AoS sales increased or possibly both. We dont have that data yet, but its the only possibilities.
            So for arguments sake lets assume that AoS is doing as good as normal WHFB sales +-5%, since we have conflicting anecdotal evidence, thats pretty good for a game that has almost everything going against it.
            -It has the obviously upset WHFB players, which a new game by a new company wouldn’t have.
            -It has the “I dont want skirmish I want War” players that come with any skirmish game.
            -It has the anti GW, because lets face it, no one brings out the angry like GW lol.
            -Finally it has the WHFB fluff followers (counted them separate since not all players fluff, and not all fluffers play) against them because the old world is gone.
            4 Strikes against this game long before it was even released, and 3 are just by association lol. So if its doing at least close to WHFB (which could have been less that 2% of total GW sales for all I know) expected sales, I would say thats a good start for a brand new game compared to an 8th edition classic.

          • Muninwing

            actually… all i can find that GW has said is that it “exceeded expectations”

            if they expected it to fail, then not-failing is exceeding. if they expected it to have a rough in-the-red start, then being in the red less than they expected is still success.

            AoS could actually be a resounding success in the industry, or the next cautionary tale for how hard it has flopped; we don’t know. and they are being pretty vague with the numbers.

            besides… my worry is more complicated than that.

            i worry that some WHF players gave it a try and bought the box, but realized it’s not the same and not their thing…
            that some new players opted in, but lost interest (that’s actually what i do with skirmish games, they do not hold my longterm attention)…
            that there was a rush by collectors and painters to buy the new stuff, but without a game that keeps stimulating purchases those buys will dwindle…
            that focus on stormcast and some chaos will have not roped in old players or new ones whose aesthetic interests lie elsewhere…
            that the lack of appreciable setting will have driven off the lore-lovers to better-developed games…
            that the purchase level required to compensate for the dropoff is the reason we see so many new releases, and one wrong release could spell its demise…

            there are many potential problems.

          • Xodis

            Yeah, they seriously should release the actual sales, so we can see how it took off initially and if its declining or not. Would also be nice to see how well received the new Dwarves are going to be.

          • Muninwing

            those models are amazing. and i’m not really a dwarf kind of guy.

            but my second thought after “woah” is “i wonder how i can convert that to fit into 40k”

            and that right there has always been a part of my preference of certain games over others. GW is the only company that encourages both historical-type force creation (“here are the 2nd company of Ultramarines, including each model you will need”) and creativity (“here are an eldar exodite clan, with the same tech as their relatives, only riding lizards!”)

            i also wonder how much of AoS sales are being channeled toward 40k projects. it used to go back and forth — my DE Wych-cult is mostly WHF models — but i have a feeling it’s largely one-way now…

          • Xodis

            Yeah, I’m a CSM player, and dont really want any dwarves in my Black Legion army, but luckily I also play AoS now (first fantasy wargame) and I think they will make a great addition to my Stormcast army lol. Everyone needs allies when the universe has been destroyed.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            *sigh*
            http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/08/age-of-sigmar-1-month-old-report.html
            Also Calith came later. Yippie for you though, I’m done with the gang bang.

          • blackbloodshaman

            lol what?

          • David Leimbach

            If that’s true, it shows how little fantasy players were spending on the game they supposedly loved.

          • Muninwing

            yep. because why spend money on a game, no matter how much you love it, when its own parent company craps on it?

            i know that the GW management has tried really hard to blame the players on this one, but it’s a clear failure of the company. they did not create a product that a loyal and active consumer base wanted. thus, they did not buy it.

            8th features
            – changes to magic that were clunky and awkward
            – randomization to previously static values and ideas that removed skill from the game
            – increases in needed models due to oversized units gaining bonuses
            – removal of rules that made large monsters effective (suddenly, a clanrat could kill a giant!) in the name of fixing old problems created by bad rules in the last generation
            – more over-the-top armybooks, broken and unusable armybooks, and complete changes in fluff and style from what was for arbitrary reasons

            … and as a result GW tried to solve it with
            – an increase in releases of large monsters that still didn’t work
            – anew way of using their new magic system that didn’t work

            and people stopped playing, hoping that 9th edition would maybe not be terrible.

            there’s no sense buying for a game you aren’t currently playing… or for one that might be different by the time you do play. my Dragon Ogres were taken out of my Beasts book, so buying them as a new unit when a new armybook was expected would have been a waste… and seeing how much the use and utilization of large monsters changed from 6th to 7th to 8th, even the main rules can have huge effect on how the army plays.

            8th was bad. 9th was expected. in fact, many players i knew were waiting for the “new 40k release schedule” to start to apply to WHF, anticipating 9th would make the game worthwhile and the post-release books would bring it back in a resurgence.

            no WHF player wanted it to die. they just wanted it to not be stupid.

          • Grumpy Scot

            I’m not convinced that they’re happy with it. The financial reports don’t make for great reading if you consider everything that they released. Moreover, I’ve spoken to enough staff members to know the effect it has had on ‘Fantasy sales’ in my part of the world.

          • Muninwing

            “happy with it” may be “it didn’t cost them TOO MUCH”

            plus, they have distinctly skirted releasing actual numbers.

            so… we really have no idea what that means.

          • Grumpy Scot

            They’ll survive losing Fantasy short term but it has nuked their product/portfolio diversity.

          • Muninwing

            see, i wanted a skirmish-level game that could focus on heroes… almost like Mordheim meets D&D.

            i also wanted a new edition of WHF that got rid of all the nonfunctional mechanics and bad decisions of the last few years, and made the game playable again.

            we could have had both.

            instead, we got youtube protests of people burning their armies in butthurt anger, overall loss of confidence in the company, and a general PR mess.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          For the sake of a lot of people I hope your dead wrong outside of your area. I grew up with Fantasy, and this was my game at first either. I wasent happy with the changes, but then I also wasent happy Teclis purple sunning my army in one turn, or six pages for moving ranked blocks of troops. Or any of a million other things that made a two hour game of AoS twice that length in a game of 8th. People asked for simple, then got it, and now want it complex again. Who is GW supposed to listen to?

          • Crevab

            Strawman much?

          • Xodis

            I think it was more rhetorical than Strawmanesqe.

          • Crevab

            ~”people wanted simple, then they wanted complex. Who is GW supposed to listen to?”
            Seems like the kind of gross simplification often used to dismiss fan input. To me, anyway

          • Muninwing

            well… some people wanted the needlessly complex to be simplified. other people (or even the same) wanted to make simplified ideas back to their more in-depth versions.

            so GW simplified some other things and made more complex still other things, as if they were in an echoing cavern asking for suggestions and only heard those two words…

          • blackbloodshaman

            No, I liked 8th (though I liked pre daemons 7th and 6th better), we didn’t play with special characters, and the movement rules while complex, were actually simpler than previous editions. I wish they could have just fixed 8th. I was always a person who thought: 40k checkers, WHFB chess, and I liked chess, most people who play WHFB and liked it , wanted a more sophisticated game. AoS more checkers than 40k.

          • Gridloc

            AoS is like tic tac toe to 40k checkers.

          • ChubToad

            So basically you were using house rules to play 8th,

          • blackbloodshaman

            sigh…go ahead make your point

          • ChubToad

            No need, if you didn’t get it no point in explaining it.

          • blackbloodshaman

            cool

          • blackbloodshaman

            and 7th and 6th, and 3rd, and all the editions of 40k, and BFG and Necromunda, and epic…and what is your point?

          • Muninwing

            “i liked this… minus these issues… and provided we played this way to remove this needless power creep nonsense from the game…”

            that’s always been my issue with WHF. so much potential, so many ways it has fallen short. then, so many easy fixes, and so many ways they didn’t bother to fix it.

            i also got involved under the checkers-and-chess analogy style thinking. people played WHF because it was more complicated and in-depth for the average pitched battle. it was a great compromise between 40k and historicals.

            … and now it’s a skirmish game instead. the opposite end of the scale that it was on before.

            defeats the purpose of most of my purchases.

          • blackbloodshaman

            sorry not really sure what you are getting at

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I think people would have settled for simple if it had been good+simple, not cr@p+simple.

            There was no need to blow up the Old World and invalidate all those stories by providing a cr@ppy ending. That is unforgiveable. It would have been better to have just abandoned it.

          • vlad78

            No one asked GW to let the setting rot or to spoil it step by step for 20 years and then destroy it to replace it with a dumb copy of Asgard and Ragnarok.

          • nurglitch

            GW follows the money.

      • David Leimbach

        There’s always the hope that GW will pull their head out of their… and fix the progeny of a 30 year old system that they blew up.

        Hint: only true fans really give a shart. Nobody else cares.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        if a game you’ve played for 30 years is scrapped, its going to take time to get over it.

      • Gunther Clone C

        This, I thoroughly enjoy playing AoS RAW and support GWs updates that may (or may not) come down the pipes in the future. The pacing is much better than old WHFB. 🙂

        • Muninwing

          some enjoy it. some don’t. to change so drastically from what it was… perhaps not a great idea (it easily could have been a skirmish game that was a part of the new setting on a smaller scale, like a Mordheim), but it definitely changed things.

          for those of us who played WHF because we didn;t like skirmish games, and preferred force-based rank-and-file, almost as a fantasy equivalent to historicals, it was never going to work as the replacement game.

          and GW had to have known that.

          and that they allowed the rumor of WHF 9th to circulate, and get hopes up from many of their older players was just foolish. had they decided to change gears, they really needed to ease it into place. and they really did the opposite.

          Alhazred said that it’s like being upset about “their prom date that walked out on them” — that’s true, if you’re 30. if you’re 19, that’s more like what is happening now. i always said that you’ve got about the same amount of time to get over an ended relationship as the length of that relationship… and many people have been playing WHF for over a decade, and seen it disappear just a few short months ago.

          the wound is still raw, and it is aggravated every time a nice new kit comes out (i could have had that in my game), or another terribly-written rule/campaign book (and its abysmal fluff pieces) hit shelves (“that could have been my codex!”), or the like.

          i try to detach enough from my own vast disappointment at GW’s terrible decisions and my lack of confidence in the company in order to be reasonable. i also don’t like to troll AoS players who have found the fun i haven’t in the game. but you’re woefully oblivious if you do not admit that the debut of AoS hasn’t been the kind of botch that most established companies manage to avoid (or, when they do not, it shifts the paradigm of the industry).

      • Coltcabunny

        Nearly a year later? It’s January. AoS came out 5 months ago.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          I meant to throw the end times in there as well, that’s really when things got weird.

    • Xodis

      Are you talking 40K or AoS? lol

    • MikeHollstrom

      It’s funny how it was never sad for 8th edition having to have all the comp rules and now an entire fan made edition to balance it. People feel quite opposite about that for some reason :p

      • ChubToad

        My thoughts exactly.

      • Gridloc

        Actually there are massive number of post and forums about comp systems for 8th. With many feeling X needed a change, etc. It was why people always cried for a new update, new codexs, new rules that fixed the issues with the game.

      • benn grimm

        Tbf those people were following an example set by the studio team; of periodically ‘fixing’ things the ‘community’ felt were a lil OP. The studio stopped doing it around about the same time as the tourney guys started. It’s a bit like when you let the kids make and enforce the rules in school; they are always much harsher than the teacher would be.

        Inserting a points system into AoS, where there was none before, is pretty much completely different to adjusting/banning units which are already costed, or clarifying unclear rules, so its no real wonder people would feel differently.

    • Ross Howard

      I felt the same way at first when trying out Clash Comp. But it was awesome and I started seeing the benefits.

      Lets say under 8th, Tomb Kings were underpowered due to an outdated codex. Nothing a bit of point tweakery couldn’t fix. But then you have the issue of waiting years for GW to address that with a new book.

      Now, you have active communities balancing armies with different comp systems in a much more flexible and timely manner.

    • Markus Beckers

      It’s sad when fans don’t realize that AoS don’t need point costs…

      • Secundum

        Except it does-it REALLY does-otherwise the game is almost unplayable.

        • Markus Beckers

          If you think it is unplayable you never tried it or you are doing it wrong. When you rotate the placing of units before the start of the game, the game is balancing itself. Your opponent places a bloodthirster ? Then counter with a unit of monster hunters… Your opponent places a unit of 10 bloodletters ? Counter and stop your placing to get the “assassinate” win option.

          • euansmith

            This does imply that you have a lot of redundancy in your army collection. With a points based system it is possible to plan and limit your purchases to “what I’m bringing to the table”.

          • Secundum

            …I’ve played it many times. It’s unplayable because there is no balance-you place 40 skeletons? I place 40 (Insert elite troop type here). There’s a reason that all three of my local clubs have everyone playing 8th edition and 9th age.

          • ChubToad

            There is balance. You want pure balance? Play the exact same army as your oponent. The game is simple and easy to play. It works nice and does not need tons and tons of rules to work as it’s intended. If you are looking for a replacement or new 8th edition then it’s not the game for you. This is a different game with the same minatures,

          • vlad78

            Yes, thank you to remind us of the obvious. It is a different game developped with a minimal investment to write a new ruleset and a new background. And it obviously does not please the majority of former wfb players or fans of the old world.

            Just as intended.

            But it will not replace them by new customers because it’s crap compared to what the competition does offer.

          • ChubToad

            Oh it’s obvious? Minimal investment? Nice I see you know much about these issues.

            And you know AoS does not please WFB players because WFB players still want to play WFB. That should be obvious too.

            And about the competition. To each it’s own crap. Competition out there also offers some crap games, aimed at releasing crap miniatures and bad rules. Think Wramahordes or Infinity are way better than any GW game? Fine, you have your opinion, let’s respect other opinion’s on AoS too.

          • vlad78

            But I respect your opinion, it is just that I totally disagree with you.

            And yes,, such kind of rules and setting has to be the result of low investment, otherwise GW HQ should be quite concerned about the lack of skills of their employees or the poor leadership decisions that led to a new dwarf army mixing the old slayers, 300, and cavemen.

            And yes, infinity is way above anything AOS can offer now on every grounds, minis, rules, fluff, even if it’s not a fantasy game.
            I don’t like warmahorde but much more effort has been put into the game and the minis than GW ever had into AOS and it shows.

            I think AOS is an experiment from GW to see if rules and settings are really that important in order to sell minis. And imho they really are.

          • Geko747

            If that’s the case why do I know more people now that play AoS than played fantasy. Why am I not out there loving KoW (its rubbish btw) GW has the best models on the market by far, it has a fun game to go along with it that is way cheaper than WHFB would ever have been. If i wanted to collect undead in WHFB i would need over 100 zombies to bloody paint, then the 50 skeletons, I would be up to my eyeballs in debt and would never get them painted.

          • vlad78

            Because WFB died, few still play its previous incarnation even if some jumped on the 9th age boat? Because you have different tastes than the majority (which is all right btw)?

            You’re entitled to think GW models are the best but quite a growing lot of people think differently. (seriously, scibor slayers are miles above the latest duardinthingy)

            KOW is imho superior both to whb and AOS in every way except in the level of specificity and customization of each army allowed and also concerning the depth of its lore (KOW compared to WFB here, not AOS which fluff is just atrocious imho)

            Stating AOS is cheaper than WFBH is just misleading given that it is heavily pushing players to increase the size of their collection in order to face every possible opponent. Lists allow to focus on specific units, AOS allows no lists.

            You can’t state AOS is cheap only because GW allowed WFB to become bloated.
            AOS is not cheap and GW miniatures are just too expensive.

          • Secundum

            Playing an identical army as the opponent does not a balanced game make.

          • Markus Beckers

            You didn’t play AoS even a single time. If you did, you would realize that your 40 ( insert Elite troop type ) are nothing unkillable, nor do they do anything without good support.

          • Secundum

            It must be nice to live in a fantasy world. Of course nothing is unkillable, but when there is nothing stopping you fielding models that are simply better than another option (instead of in Fantasy, where for example, despite having the same number of wounds, a Knight with a 1+/2+ armour save cost more than a basic infantry model.)

          • Markus Beckers

            If your opponent is simply using “better” models, why don’t you put a counter unit on the table or use a support model which buffs your troops ?
            Are the enemy models still “better” than your troops than use the “Sudden death” table”. Be creative…. You have no army-list in this game, so win/loss isn’t determined bevor the game starts. Your opponent counters your ( pretty bad ) 10 zombies with 10 warriors of chaos ? Just add some death wizards + corpse charts and he won’t be able to get through the masses in a week. Your opponent puts a bloodthirster on the table ? Counter this with an Empire cannon… Your opponent plans to play a tomb legion ? Play with 1/3 less models and assassinate the king…

          • Gridloc

            This is great for some of us vets with lots of models, but what about younger kids. Now if an adult vet crushes a kids, its just wrong and would never justify that, but what if little timmy and little johnny are playing. Johnny’s dad doens’t make much but got him a starter and blister… timmy is spoiled… how do you explain that by following the rules of AoS that its johnny’s fault he lost since he didn’t buy more counters???

          • Markus Beckers

            But points costs for every unit wouldn’t change anything. Or do you think lil Johnny’s dad would search the internet for a cheap pro-gamer list and buy him the right miniatures ? 40k is the best example that this doesn’t change anything. Have you ever seen 600points of imperial guard soldiers kill a warhound titan ? Or squads of tactical marines beat a riptide ?
            If lil’ Johnny is clever he will use the less variety of miniatures to his advantage and plays “seize ground” “endure” or “assassinate”. If Timmy still decides to put more and more miniatures on the table because of his small peen, Johnny has won the game before it even starts.

          • Gridloc

            I know its difficult concept, as you seem to reference 40k as “best example”, but games by companies that actually put effort into their games use points and organization charts to create balance. This ensures that games are closer and come down to skill… crazy i know

          • Geko747

            Then hopefully being the respectable person you’re supposed to be you would tailor your army so little Johnny has a good time and might decide to invest further and spread the word to his mates that he has found an awesome new game.

            Or would you prefer to slaughter him and force him away from the game because the people that are supposed to help you take more fun in trying to humiliate you. Just so you can go home to the wife and brag how you crushed some 12 year old because he was poorer than yourself? All your comment has done is made you sound like a vile individual with no respect for other gamers.

            Save the big games and the dirty tricks for an experienced player. After all isn’t the whole point of this game to be about having fun.

          • Gridloc

            I started off saying a vet crushing a kid is wrong… You skip that part???

            The point was two kids playing one with lots of cash the other with out. AoS caters to the pay to win crowd with rules written.

            I get what you are saying though, guess to play AoS you have to go in not wanting to play a strategy game. Just show off pretty models while making pew pew sounds… Other wise if you try then your a jerk for making game not fun. Nothing wrong with that, why AoS is for those kids who were raised on participation awards. The concept of win and lose hurts their fragile feelings.

          • Geko747

            Yeah my bad I tried to delete it but was too late. Apologies. But you are still way off the mark. This game has everything that is needed for a quick fun game with friends over a few drinks. If you want in depth game with reems of rules that half end up contradicting each other then play something else. Or better yet play 8th as as far as I’m aware they didn’t sneak into your house and burn them all.

          • Gridloc

            My apologies too, i thought it was an attack. I have no issues with AoS anymore, I was sour when released as was not the game for me.

            I was commenting on issues i’ve seen with why people say its better game now without points. I still feel its a game that does require social agreements prior. Which is not difficult, but it counters younger kids where its harder to grasp concept of fairness.

            Its not a game for me, but I still hold out hope that there will be a change in rules for those who still love the GW model design and themes. Just want more structure in rules.

          • Geko747

            I don’t know what to think about the whole points. I love not having any but then I do understand why people who played WHFB need them as they all came from a very competitive game. I found having points meant my lizard army had no Troglodon, loved the model but his points was just obscene. Why take one when I could have more skinks. Everyone was out to win with the best list possible, which made for some very repetitive battles, would see multiple chaos armies which never featured near half of their unit choices. So I could never go in with a fluffy list because I would just have my opponent crush me into dust every time. I want games where people bring the models they love and see how they do in a battle. I loved undead but would never collect them as I would need 100+ zombies to even get started. With work and kids its just not possible to spend that much time and money. Now i can use an army of 60 men and that’s more than enough.

            I now have in the space of AoS coming out 3 extra armies fully painted and ready for battle, I would still be collecting my core allowance if it were 8th

          • Gridloc

            In response to edited post, we did change rules for 8th. And understand that AoS is a great platform for building off of for many. Why I have no issues with people playing.

            But that does require bands of players agreeing to rules and changes, this makes games harder for those who aren’t in groups (pick up games, casual gamers, etc).

            This was my point about kids, that the structure is not there to define games where one person has the advantage due to owning more models. Points limited it to at least some balance (but even then it got bad near end).

            In terms of winning, its no different than video games, not many people are picking up CoD Black ops, to see how a P90 gun looks with urban camo in multiplayer. They are there to compete. Its the other part of gaming. AoS is focused on the fluff and socialization, like party games (apples to apples, charades) where there is a winner, but its playing that is the point.

            AoS is just a different game, its why some love it and others hate it (or don’t understand it appeal). Being different doesn’t make it a bad game though, and if you enjoy playing then anyone trying to ruin that is a jerk.

          • Geko747

            Yeah its not an ideal way to play the game for new people, but with a friendly enough bunch then its not too hard to integrate a new player into the ranks.

            I honestly can’t see many, if any kids playing this game, with the rise of computers wargames hardly get a look in any more. You will find the majority of the kids that do play are ones whose parents are already fans and have got them into it. So they should have a good base for starting anyway. Granted the lack of balanced rules would make 2 kids with different incomes have a tough time playing, but then I remember my first battles between the ages of 12-16 and we never once used points anyway. We just whacked a bunch of men on some school tables and went for it. Was great fun. We had people who only had one box of men others with hundreds. But everyone enjoyed it. With AoS now its so much easier to have 4 people all playing at the same time, joining up armies making secret pacts with neighbours to overthrow the larger Chaos force that has turned up. Maybe this is what GW wants to try to recreate but in the process has alienated many of the loyal fans. Most of which probably have not bought a model since 6th edition though.

            I just want to see where they take it, as I must admit if this is it and they have no plans (I highly doubt it seen as though they held onto the Nagash model for what 3 years) then I will be slightly annoyed myself. But I just see this as a starting point for something much greater. I would liked to have been around for the release of WHFB to see how much fluff they had at the beginning.

          • Secundum

            You really don’t get it do you…

          • Markus Beckers

            No. You seem to not unterstand anything. Maybe try to free your mind and read the rules again. Try to see this as game and not a job. Try to have fun playing with your opponent and not have fun playing against him.

          • Secundum

            It’s all very well for you casuals, but some of us like the challenge of building competitive lists, as well as the complexity of the old game.

          • Markus Beckers

            Then play the old game.

          • Secundum

            I do-I’m just trying to educate the sheeple on how AoS is an awful product.

          • Geko747

            Just your opinion, can’t go around stating it as fact when other people enjoy it. You said you wanted a challenge and competitive game. Then this is not for you, this is a game to have a laugh with over a few beers with your mates.

            Want that challenge you so crave why not just carry on playing 8th? As far as I know GW didn’t send stormcast eternals to everyone’s house and burn the old rule books and army books. Its all still there. Carry on like nothing ever happened. Would make no difference.

            You just really don’t get it do you, so stuck in your ways that you can’t let go. Pathetic. Thinking a business should pander to you rather than make themselves money.

          • Secundum

            Plus any Tomb Kings player that wants to win at all costs will just use the 100% win strategy with a single scarab swarm. (Use the survival condition with one swarm unit-go beneath the sands for 6 turns-pop out at the end of the game and gg).

          • Geko747

            Funny you say that, I have watched/read hundreds of bat reps and no one has ever exploited any of the rules to do stupid things like that because where is the fun in it? You have just shown all you are after is a tourney win. Not a fun game with mates over a few beers or whatever takes your fancy.

            Only the people who hate the game will think up of all these stupid loop holes, everyone who actually plays for fun enjoys it and will continue to do so no matter how much you fling your toys out the pram.

          • Secundum

            That’s because a bat rep is designed to show off…You’ve just proved you have no idea about the game.

      • Coltcabunny

        Sure. Gotta love playing the Prisoner’s dilemma with your opponent every game.

        • JN7

          You may need to dumb down that reference for most of the audience.:D

  • aka_mythos

    I have to hand it to WHFB fans, I think this is the 3rd or 4th major attempt to make something work. I get that GW wants us to think of them as miniature company and not a game company but it’s as failing as all the computer manufacturers of the 60’s and 70’s who failed to see the virtue of being in the business of producing user friendly operating systems.

    More and more the point imbalances in 40k indicate the need for something as radical as this to straighten things out.

    • Alhazred TheMad

      Honestly slapping all the figures on the board and playing through is refreshing. Not sure my fifty stormcasts can ever beat three hundred skaven, but every time has been fun as hell. Screw points, the real military isn’t about even forces.

      • blackbloodshaman

        This is true, I am really keen to try Black Powder, and really like some of their rules so I can overlook the lack of points, but unlike AoS Black Powder has other redeeming qualities.

      • Malisteen

        real military isn’t about having fun either, because real war isn’t a game. Warhammer is a game, or was anyway, and while AoS’s, for lack of a better term, pointlessness doesn’t completely prevent it from being fun to play, it has made it a lot harder to get those games together, especially against strangers or casual acquaintances at a the local shop.

        WHFB’s points system wasn’t perfectly balanced, but “hey, you wanna play?” “Sure, how many points?” was a much simpler and less frustrating conversation than those that have preceded pretty much every AoS game I’ve managed to get together.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          Pretty sure I didn’t say real war was fun. Also putting figures on a board till you a) run out of room or b) run out of figures is not twenty questions prior to set up. If your biased against something than that’s fine, but then why continue to enter into positive inclined discussions about a system? Isn’t there a better way to spend your time on here?

          • Malisteen

            Despite trying a few times, I have never had “put models on the gable until you run out of models” actually result in a game rather than a scoop. The only games of AoS I’ve actually gotten to play all started with rather long conversations about what was going to be fielded. Your subjective experience obviously varies from this, but it isn’t universal.

            Also, you may want to scroll back up to the initial post you responded to, and ask whether I was trying to invade a positively inclined discussion, or whether instead maybe you were the one invading a negatively inclined one. Perhaps there’s a better way for you to spend your time on here?

          • Hedwerx

            I think you’re both wrong, anybody should be able to enter into any discussion going on on an open forum.

            Otherwise you’d just create two seperate echo chambers, where people only talk to people that agree with them.

            In that case it’d save everyone a lot of time and effort to just go “hmm yes I agree, marvelous point” into a mirror for 20mins each day.

          • Malisteen

            I didn’t mean to say they shouldn’t have responded, I was just trying to point out what I saw as a bit of hypocrisy on their part, while being as sarcastic and flippant as possible. Which, actually, is just as bad, and I apologize.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          Not sure you read any of that right, and what you do for fun on a Friday night is your business ;p

        • Xodis

          Has the opposite effect on getting newbies to play here. Usually They only want a handful of models, can get them “painted” (spraypaint lol) pretty quick and possibly gaming by the next weekend with a handful of models. Of course it helps that WHFB was completely dead, so its not like too many people were angry over its loss.

          • blackbloodshaman

            Right, thats why there were 100+ man tournaments in summer 2015

          • Gridloc

            Where?

          • blackbloodshaman

            My Mistake, 90 actually showed up, though 120 were registered, still hardly a lack of interest though http://www.leadership2.org/content/4820-2015-qcr-info (you can see only 90 showed up in results)

          • Gridloc

            Oh, i thought you were sayign there were 100 people AoS tournaments. Even locally when there was fantasy events we would get 20+ people. It wasn’t dead at all, it was just not growing like other games as of late. Now its hard to get AoS game (not impossible). I do miss fantasy games, not being a fan of AoS, wish some of them didn’t convert to round bases as its difficult to play old fantasy with AoS players.

          • Malisteen

            I appreciate the smaller scale, and the nature of AoS as a ‘game of models’ rather than a ‘game of units’. In that regard, at least, it’s a better fit for GW’s minis products, which, aesthetic concerns not withstanding, really are some of the best minis out there, but are too expensive and too detailed to be appropriate for a game that expects you to field hundreds of models at a time.

            That said, the smaller scale, skirmish game market is a very crowded space these days, with real solid contenders like Warma/Hordes & Malifaux, with noticeably easier and more diverse entry points for new players than Age of Sigmar, even with the actually-pretty-nice discount boxes GW’s rolling out now, and considerably more engaging rules for established players.

            In the many years that have passed since GW pulled Mordheim and Necromunda, many other companies have already moved in to establish themselves in the skirmish game niche, with solid games and decent, if not GW-quality figure lines and actual communication and engagement of the hobby community by the game makers. Games that aren’t starting out with a wave of animosity from an existing player base that was not only abandoned, but actively rejected.

            Don’t get me wrong, I like AoS more than I dislike it, and am still actively collecting and working on my GW undead models, but GW has their work cut out for them if they have any hope that this game will still exist a few years out.

          • Christopher Cant

            I agree with you. I wouldn’t be surprised if AoS eventually got folded into the Specialist Games stuff, and Horus Heresy took the spotlight. Not saying I think that will happen, just that if it did, I wouldnt be surprised 😉

          • Xodis

            Oh I agree that it needs work, I think the foundation is very solid though. Start with AoS skirmish and then (if they are smart) build to armies once again in both game and fluff.
            Could it have worked without scrapping WHFB and adding AoS as a skirmish version of the game? Probably, but like Kill Teams and other skirmish versions of 40K, I think the major WHFB crowd would have pushed it to the sidelines as the “alternative” mode of play and then it would be just another new edition full of people with armies already and not that many people wanting to try and catch up.
            Being a living ruleset I kind of expected at least a couple “corrections” to the rules by now though. I think its unanimous that measuring from the model and not the base needs to go, along with a couple other rules.

      • Drpx

        So following the “real military” logic, if my friend and I agree to play a game on Saturday, then I need to break into his house on Friday and set his minis on fire.

        Now I have won on Saturday and all future games.

        • Alhazred TheMad

          Yes, but find something else to do with your Saturday’s besides staying in the basement, your mom and I have plans upstairs.

          Seriously though why are all the petulant a hole gamers on tonight? Isn’t their porn still on the net?

          • Matthew Pomeroy

            Is it still free? this new matt ward edition of porn sucks, and age of porn is not nearly as good as naked fantasy battle.

          • Drpx

            Yes, and I’m watching it with your mom right now. Because we are having sex.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            Touche, I threw that underhanded.

      • vlad78

        How can anyone compare unbalance in a game with real war?
        A game is about having fun. War isn’t.

      • Gridloc

        Ask any losing general of a war if he would have preferred a even match or enjoyed having his men killed to a superior force. Many wars are won by the side that has more money and bigger weapons…

        • Alhazred TheMad

          I think any general would say he’d rather have overwhelming force to a fair fight, but we re discussing a game though, and wider point no system is ever balanced. 40k is not balanced. Eldar are not balanced. Even so it is fun to play a siege or fight an overwhelming army occasionally. And what if you do win?

          • Gridloc

            I get a win against overwhelming army is super fun, but its rare and those other games can get exhausting (its why people cry about OP armies in 40k) also on that, please don’t use GW games to prove balance in games. They don’t put any effort into their games. Please use one of the countless other games that actively strive for game balance. I see this all the time, people justify AoS balance by comparing with only other GW game…

            If Joe’s Ice cream store uses salt instead of sugar for their ice cream, i’m not going to say ice cream is bad since the vanilla here taste awful and to prove it the chocolate at the same store is just as bad… i’ll go across the street and have real ice cream and realize its Joe’s place that is the problem…

      • Markus Beckers

        Your Stormcasts should have been doing pretty well against 300 skaven, given that you are the one to choose the mission. “Assassinate” the commander or “Endure” work pretty well, if you have at least a part of troops which can shock on the table when and where they want.

    • SacTownBrian

      I suppose that’s true if the truth of the world is assumed to be the comments in BoLS.

  • Alhazred TheMad

    Missing a lot of the figures for stormcasts and bloodbound. Still it’s a nice set and must have took a lot of work. This set
    Is updated regularly though and has a builder too:

    https://sites.google.com/site/ageofsigmarsdk/

  • Ira Clements

    The point system in 40k is useless. Its easier to make interesting games by ‘eyeballing” the forces than putting stock in the reliability of the points system.

    • David Leimbach

      Awesome, so please share the winning list, that can beat everything else every time regardless of player skill.

  • This is the 12th set of points to come out since July. My question is how is this superior to PPC, SDK, Pool system etc? I’m leaving out Azyr because that pretty much has run its course with most groups now and as it didn’t use the traditional precision formula of 2000 pts it was always going to be looked at sideways.

    • Alhazred TheMad

      SDK is great and is updated frequently. I won’t pretend to know the formulas but everything they base the scores on is listed, plus the flash builder is nice.

  • PsychosisPC

    Does anyone still play that game?????

    • blackbloodshaman

      yes, but 90% arent old enough to post on the internet yet

      • BLOOD4TEHBLOODGOD

        And that’s a bad thing? The lack of young blood is what’s been spelling the eventual doom of this community for a number of years now. Try getting anyone these days to set up and play a 2-3 hour game of 40k when they could be pwning fools online in 2 minutes. If nothing else, vanilla AoS is an excellent as a gateway

        • blackbloodshaman

          I would argue that the prohibitive cost is what doomed the game ultimately, we’ll see how turning chess into tic tac toe effects the hobby in a few years, assuming AoS survives (which I don’t think it will)

        • Malisteen

          You say “pwning fools online” in a way that sounds pretty dismissive, but… let’s be honest, here. While there’s a lot of junk games, there’s also many with considerably more tactical depth and interactive complexity than anything you see in pretty much any minis game, even the better ones, while even something as simple as Rocket League has a visceral, frenetic enjoyment to it that simply cannot be found on a tabletop.

          Kid’s aren’t playing video games over tabletop games because they’re too dumb or don’t have enough attention, they’re doing so because video games aren’t just more convenient, aren’t just cheaper, they’re also often just plain better games.

          • Hedwerx

            A lot of strategy games on console/pc use the the same systems as wargames. Just the computer rolls the dice for you. You don’t have to paint the units either.

      • Gridloc

        Are little kids playing this for real? I could see if the prices matched the starter set, but any parent would have laughed once they saw the additional kits. As its hard for even adult gamers to justify purchasing some model kits (GW or not)

        Maybe they are (as i can’t confirm or deny) which is great news for the community as a whole.

        • ChubToad

          In a world where a console game sells for 60 bucks, 40k is not expensive at all.

          • Gridloc

            How many console games does it take to play a game??? one i believe, How many boxes of 40-60$ units does it take to play 40k? Lets look at the big picture.

          • ChubToad

            Ah you are right, you buy one game and re play it until the disc fades out of existence. No need to buy more games whatsoever.

          • Gridloc

            Hmm, call of duty is played multiplayer for months at a time before another is released… I’m not saying consoles are cheap, but the investment of 60 can go a long way for a parent, vs a unit in a game about dropping models after models onto a table.

            one could argue that unit is valid for a longer time than a video game. So in terms of value think model is better.

          • Christopher Cant

            I think console gaming and tabletop have a similar monetary investment tbh

          • ChubToad

            Agree, not only GW games, but every tabletop game nowadays.

          • Captain Raptor

            Console games perhaps, but if you play on a PC it’s no contest. I can buy 10+ great games on Steam for the cost of a AoS starter. I don’t blame kids nowadays for gravitating towards video games. They keep getting better and cheaper while miniatures keep getting better and more expensive.

          • Christopher Cant

            Yeah, completely. My gaming is exclusively PC now and I definitely spend less than £100 a year on games. I have found in the last few years though that I’m finding gaming to be an increasingly shallow experience, bar a few favourite games, and have moved more and more towards tabletop for a deeper, more invested experience.

        • blackbloodshaman

          Well for a 9 year old the starter is all you need. I have two friends with sons, one 9, one 11. The one with a 9 year old claims his kid loves it, the 11 year old wont touch it. So…

        • Hedwerx

          No, it’s a dismissive tactic used by people who don’t like the game to make people who do feel childish.
          WHFB player: “You play AoS? That’s for kids!”
          Historical player: “You play fantasy games? That’s for kids!”
          Scale modeller: “You play wargames? That’s for kids!”
          Figure painter: “You build model kits? That’s for kids!”
          and so on…

    • generalian

      no

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Loads and loads. Most people who do play the game have grown weary of having to defend their interest to random people on the internet.

      • vlad78

        Then don’t.

        Haven’t seen any AOS player with my own eyes. ;p

        • ChubToad

          I bet you haven’t seen a bolivian with your own eyes either, but that doesn’t mean the country does not exist or the 12 million people that live there.

          • vlad78

            Actually I’ve met some. ;p

            Being an AOS player isn’t a nationality. There should be some everywhere WFB players used to be.
            Around where I live, there are none visible. If you roam the forums of local gaming clubs, you won’t see any game scheduled, nothing.
            If you go to independant retailers, you won’t see them and stormcasts do not sell.

            i’ve been part of 2 gaming clubs, not a single member switched to AOS.

            People play Kow or 9th age and that’s it.

            Reach your own conclusion, it may be different where you live.

          • Hedwerx

            I haven’t seen a WHFB player in the wild since about 1996. So I guess no-one played that either. 😛

          • Malisteen

            Supposedly what online presence AoS has is more on social media via Facebook groups and the like, rather than on gaming forums, which were hostile to both the game and to anyone who claimed to play it or like it from day zero.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      I actually saw a game of AoS at my wargames club last night. I was so surprised I nearly spilled my pint. Painted miniatures and everything.

      There were 3x40K, 2x DZC, 2x X-Wing, 1x Guildball, 1x AoS last night IIRC.

  • Kevin E’Levin

    Even if the rules were perfect, the model prices alone are enough to send me looking elsewhere.

  • SacTownBrian

    Not needed at all.

  • A Coat of Grey

    Jesus Christ BOLS as if you didn’t already have enough negativity going on in your comments sections (let me add mine for once) you go and let an idiot like Rob Bear write his stupid articles only meant get him more clicks to his website and in return stirring up crap that just isn’t needed. I for one am sick of Spikey Bits illusions of grandeur and his worthless content that is alway either late or simply doesn’t add any contributions to the community.

    • BLOOD4TEHBLOODGOD

      How is it worse than any other content on here?

    • So start your own site or stop clicking on things by him. Every article on the main page has the author listed.

      Or did you just want to be “edgy”

  • JP

    Okay, we know what the two dozen most vocal Negative Nancies on the internet think about Age of Sigmar. How does the other 99.997% of the players feel about it?

    • KILLDOZA

      I think you need to check your math there. If you’re starting your count at two dozen you actually want to know what the other 0.003% of AoS players feel about it. 😛

      Stupid quips aside, I was personally disappointed with the direction that AoS took; I was actually really interested in it being a Fantasy Skirmish game until the whole ‘no points’ thing. It’s no biggie though, I’ll wait for a bit until I bring out the Skaven and Ogres again.

      • Xodis

        Luckily its a “Living Rule set” so someday we could possibly get points (they wont help balance anything if 40K is any clue lol) to help make pick up games a little faster.

    • frankelee

      Go to the Age of Sigmar tournaments and ask them, duh.

      • JP

        Give me a minute to knock over an ATM to pay for the trip….

      • Gridloc

        Nova had 64 people signed up for fantasy, AoS released, they allowed those tickets to transfer to the AoS system, 6 people played. I’m sure those 6 had a blast and the narrative sounded fun, but it shows that many people are not interested in AoS for the tournament scene (or weren’t last summer at least)

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      It is a fun game. It isn’t designed for tournament play, which is why people on blogs like BoLS don’t like it.

    • blackbloodshaman

      Okay, we know what the two thousand most vocal Negative Nancies on the internet think about Age of Sigmar. How does the other .003% of the players feel about it? FTFY you are welcome

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      they hate it.

    • edendil

      This 00.0001% is not a fan.
      Ive not played it.
      I hadnt spent anything on WFB in a long time, although I liked the minis and I always thought i’d come back to it some time in the future – will never happen now I guess.
      Ive read the ‘rules’ for AoS. They are almost non-existent. The background is of zero interest. Nuking the old world was completely unnecessary and inexplicable. The whole thing is like a weird, bizarre nightmare. I would not have believed that GW could do something so foolish and reckless… except that they did!

  • A Coat of Grey

    Haha I like how my comments got deleted because they talked negatively about Rob Bear.

    • Manwiththedogs

      Careful, or Bols will stop crediting authors and articles will be written by ‘Bols writing team’ 😉

  • Joel McGrath

    Ive tried the different ‘point systems’ to make this game ‘work’. But in all honesty, the game is the funnest playing with the actual rules, and using a different mission everytime for variety.
    I find AoS to be really refreshing from the competitive scene of 40k. Its nice to sit back with some mates, have a few beers while rolling some dice.
    Does this game need a point system to be competitive or balanced? No.
    All i can suggest is take a casual approach to the game, and you’ll have alot of fun!

    • Xodis

      Kind of need a standard for the Adepticon Tournament though, Im with you though, its a fun casual game!

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Why do you need to play it at a tournament at all? It isn’t designed to be played like that.

        • Joel McGrath

          Exactly. But this is what other people are trying to do and don’t particularly agree with them.
          AoS is the perfect beer and pretzels game. Not a tournament game.

          • Hedwerx

            But, but… If you can’t play it at a tournament, how will we know who is the bestest at pushing little plastic men around?

      • JN7

        Yeah, everyone knows tournament players are wrongbad for having a different kind of fun than you or for being exasperated that they are no longer able to play in such a manner without copious house rules.

        • Xodis

          Sarcasm? Because I never insinuated that there was anything wrong with tournament play.

          • JN7

            Whoops, meant to be to the guy above you

          • Xodis

            Gotcha 😉 lol

  • They’re missing a couple of units for the Stormcasts…And also the Khorne Bloodbound…

  • frankelee

    The rules still suck, who cares if they make up more rules to use with the sucky ones? Use this thing called the internet to find one of the literally hundreds of better wargaming rulesets out there.

    • blackbloodshaman

      pretty much find any other rule set as they are all better

  • Aaditya Rangan

    Well, I like the AoS rules as is! I’m not sure point-values encourage the kind of “historical refights” that I enjoy.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      how can you do a historical refight in a setting which has no history?

      • Countdiscount

        I’m assuming he means the scenarios common in a historical battle where there are no even fights, it’s just what you have against what the enemy has and you hope your strategy wins the day if you’re out gunned.

      • Hedwerx

        Orc’s Drift, for example.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          I mean AoS has no history. WHFB was full of history.

          • Hedwerx

            Orruks Drift then, just taking a historical battle and placing it into the system you’re playing (which I’m pretty sure is the sort of thing that Aaditya was talking about).

            Playing off kilter games are fun. It’s like the difference between Chess and Hnefatafl, winning at Hnefatafl when you’re playing the side that’s supposed to lose is a lot more rewarding IMO.

            AoS has only been out half a year. Maybe GW are going to give it this rolling storyline everyone keeps crying out for in 30/40K. Anyway WHFB isn’t dead it’s just gone open source. Going off the amount of hate leveraged at GW on a daily basis you’d think there’d be dancing in the streets over the fact that it’s no longer in their hands.

  • shaydozer

    I like the game. I like home brew stuff. I also like other games. Thanks for putting this on my radar.

    Oh and thanks to everyone for all the comments. Thank god for you guys. I was kind of confused about how everyone felt about this game after reading the other comments on every AoS post here ever but not now. Seriously it’s so rad you guys take actual time out of your day to click a link you know you will dislike and scroll to the bottom and click more stuff in order to vent your frustrations about a game you don’t play. You guys are like, straight up bad asses. Seriously I can’t thank you all enough. Keep on posting your negativity I think it’s definitely NOT making BOLs money by driving traffic and definitely helping to make them not want to post anymore AoS stuff.

    For real thank you guys you are all super awesome dudes! Go out into the world knowing how cool you are. Have a great super cool day.

    • Shadowlord

      I am still smiling after reading this post an hour ago.

      Best this week.

    • BLOOD4TEHBLOODGOD

      Pretty much sums it up

    • The Internet is a hate machine. It produces hate. Anything else is just waste/a by product.

      • Hedwerx

        Hate and porn. Don’t forget the porn.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      people are angry with GW. There are no channels of communication to Gw, so the anger gets expressed here and elsewhere on the internet. Probably will for as long as AoS lasts. Its human nature.

      • ZeeLobby

        Pretty much this, i don’t understand why all the “just don’t click” sprayers don’t get this…

        • shaydozer

          I think it’s pointless to complain about people who complain about people that complain. What’s next?! People who complain about people who complain about people complaining that people complain?

          Don’t be ridiculous.

    • Hedwerx

      I don’t like football. I just thought you should know.

    • Gridloc

      Reality shows are doing amazing on TV because people love drama. When its drama over something you like(d) then you will tune in and add to it… No different here.

      I get that you must be tired of complaining, i get that. But if you don’t like it why did you click and add your comment?

    • Axis Mundi

      Best.. comment.. ever. 😉

  • David Leimbach

    GW removed the points system to drive away all the crusty old players. Nobody wants to go into a FLGS to buy their kids some models only to find the place swarming with “old timers” who know the fluff inside and out and have every rule memorized taking up all the tables.
    And yet here they are, desperately trying to find a way to get back in.
    This isn’t about 30 years of lore or the game you love. It’s about replacing the old crowd with a new crowd. The new crowd that will grow to love the art and fluff of a new game and continue to buy for decades more.

    • Gridloc

      Or as I’ve seen (only locally mind you) those kids are buying x-wing, opening the package and playing games with both younge and old players…

    • Captain Raptor

      Who’s the new crowd? Where are all these fictional children swarming to get into AoS? The next generation of miniature gamers will be playing X-wing or something like it. The only people who would consider buying GW products now are old timers. Which is fitting as the company is a relic from an age where they had no competition.

  • benn grimm

    Fair play to these guys for giving it a go, though I can’t think of a much more thankless task; the guys who don’t like AoS still aren’t going to and the guys who do aren’t bothered about points it seems. I’m sure all 3 of the ‘competitive’ AoS crowd will love this though…)

  • Jared Swenson

    Hey I love it when people take care to click on a link and comment on something to show us they don’t care. After all it’s normally a dick move to try destroying or poisoning a budding community, but for some reason AoS is the exception to that, right? It’s not like you guys are letting the hatred of this game get to you so much that you can’t even begin to conceive that others have different interests than you do.

  • durendin

    Sigh!

  • Adam Murray

    I don’t like golf, I think it’s boring and I’ve tried to play it. I don’t show up on golf forums slagging of golf and people who enjoy it. If you don’t like it just skip it. Simple.

    • Gridloc

      Huh? If you played golf for 30 years and then all the golf courses you went to changed to have plastic sheets on the ground and holes 10 feet in the air… i’m sure you would be on some sites complaining this is not the game you played for years.

      • Adam Murray

        Except in this instance all the old golf courses remain open and there’s this new air golf for people to try.

        • Gridloc

          But those courses won’t be getting any maintenance again, eventually its not fun to play on worn down courses…

          However you are correct, anyone who says they can’t play old fantasy is incorrect. But like many we tend to play games that are still support and look for games that will get new models.

    • Coltcabunny

      False analogy is false.

      • Adam Murray

        Just let people have there fun.

  • For all the people saying “it doesn’t need points, it is a beer and pretzels game” let me point you at black powder. Historicals like that are the definition of narrative, beer and pretzels games. Yet Warlord still took the time to include an optional points system for napoleonics for the players that wanted them
    Some people just like having a construct to work from, competitive or not

    • Hedwerx

      And the ‘Old Guard’ historical players had a fit about kiddy points values being included in their game for grown ups.

      The exact same complaints for the exact opposite reasons. It’s almost like you can’t win.

      • Gronards grumble. Always have always will.

        I would rather the construct be there for those who want it and it be optional, rather than take it out for those who don’t and leave it to those who do to make it up

        • Hedwerx

          I guess, TBF though points values in historical are less required. Most historical gamers are really what you could call fluff gamers, refighting real battles with the right ratios of troops.

          • I know. I am one of them. But they can be useful for what ifs, unique campaigns, puck up games, and attracting new players

          • The point is if a historical game could bother with it, why not AoS?

          • Hedwerx

            Without points it’s easier to just release OTT models with OTT rules and not have to worry about if it’s overcosted or undercosted. You can just come up with cool stuff and release it. Maybe they actually really want it to just be a knockabout game.

            For arguements sake, it’s a hell of a lot easier to come up with a points value system for historical.

            The only race in your game is Humans. You’ve got a few tiers of armour, long and short polearms, handweapons, bows/firelocks/muskets, light/heavy cav. Green-trained-veteran-elite Done.

            Once you’ve got that mapped out everything else is just variations on the same thing. You’re not coming up with brand new units every few weeks, having to balance them into your system.

            If you do come out with a new unit from a nation you haven’t released before, it’s still just some poor sod wearing some variation on the same armour as everyone else, wielding some form of gunpowder weapon or metal point on a stick.

    • Axis Mundi

      It’s quite likely that GW will do the same thing – though in the UK the 20% to 30% of tournament players that stuck with AoS are quite happy with their own points system, so if I was GW I’d let us just carry on. We’re doing a better job of it than they ever did after all.

  • versuscorp

    You already wrote 5 articles about GW’s new slayers and each article is
    same. Only headings are different. (They are not slayers as well. They are ugly..:) )

    We really bored about these same news. Please note that it is
    over for GW! GW already finished its relations with us, why do you write
    a lot about them. It is unnecessary! 40k is unbalanced and a maniac
    game.They already finished fantasy. It is really over for gw. They will
    be remembered as a nostalgic company in time…:)

    Pls write
    news about xwing, malifaux or other beautiful games. Give more chance to
    the new companies. If you would like to write same article 5 times, please
    write it about new games..:) At least these or new companies really
    care about us. GW doesn’t deserve anything.

    In addition to that, AOS is a death game. Why do you write about a death game…:)

    • frank

      why do you copy paste your response on every article on here? your comment doesn’t even apply to this thread

      • versuscorp

        ok my mistake i will delete it sorry, you can find my article about this here below..:)

  • Geko747

    These points limits are all over the place, have the people who made this ever had a game of AoS?

  • versuscorp

    What is offering AOS than other skirmish games like malifaux, x wing or war machine…? Of course a company might create a new game. It is about its strategy.

    However, the problem is that AOS was borned very poor, simple and unorganized. It is clear that aos was trying to catch the soul of our time. It was trying to be simple, practical and fast. But they forgot one think which was about being unique. If there is malifaux, x -wing and other games shining in the gaming industry why would i play a skirmish game like AOS which is not organized and not ready.

    In addition to that these new companies really care about its customers, and their requests and manage to create a good game but GW not. In one night GW suddenly cut its relations with its veteran players. That was shame. Veterans were pushing people to start warhammer at all not only sellers in shops. Veterans were players who already spend millions of dollars. GW cut its artery. Gw announced, “don’t trust me anymore” . Who can trust such a company from now on! New players? I don’t think so…

    With fluff and all other stuff, warhammer fantasy and 8th edition was a unique game not like others.This year “vermintide” has been sold over 500.000 copies and its fluff was based on the old world and you will see that a lot of players would buy warhammer fantasy total war in this year.

    But i am not pessimist because I am glad that we have 9th age now which is very unique and very balanced. If you didn’t experience it, you already lose too much. I am glad that we opened our eyes and we started to experience new and very balanced games like malifaux, x-wing, fow and like others.

    • “Why would anyone play AOS when we have malifaux, xwings and other games”

      Because those other games are not fantasy. Malifaux is steam punk. X Wing is starship battles. To some, gaming for the sake of gaming is not a thing, but the environment, aesthetic, etc are more important.

      There are very few fantasy offerings on the market.

      Second – some of us have massive collections and are not just going to toss those aside.

      For me I play AoS because there is nothing that serves me as a fantasy game, and I’m not a tournament player so games like Kings of War and 9th age don’t interest me. I also have a collection that was started in the mid 90s and have poured a lot of money and months of my time in painting them to just discard them.

      I don’t need a super serious game to enjoy my time. AoS surely has its issues that annoy me (which is why I wrote Azyr) but in the same breath, so does every game on the market today have things that annoy me, most to the point where I’d not pick them up at all.

      • frank

        if u have a gaming group aos works for why not. ive read the rules they weren’t that bad to me but would never work well with my circle of gamers.were not hard core gamers but you take away points and its chaos, that said though its not my favorite i think aos gets a lot more hate than is deserved.

        • Definitely. I can’t really do the layout all of your models and go method either, which is why I wrote azyr but once that was done the games Ive had since July have been very solid.

          • frank

            yea the setup suggested in the rules is the easiest part of people’s criticism for me to get but the rules were fairly solid if not too in depth still some people seem to think it’s the worst game ever. honestly although i’m not stoked on the game it seems like the logical place for gw to go.

  • Col. Duke Lacrosse

    As someone who’s played Age of Sigmar since release and indeed purchased a second army (Seraphon) for the game, two things.

    First, I personally enjoy AoS and it has revived the local Fantasy community from dead to a group of 5-6 regulars. I’ve played more AoS in 6 months than Fantasy in 5 years.

    Second, I just want to thank Rob and others for continuing to cover AoS on BoLS in spite of monumental hate, vitriol, and childish outbursts that every post stirs up. There are those of that appreciate any info we can get on this new game we enjoy. I know it must be disheartening to see the comments section of every AoS post, but on behalf of all the AoS players, keep it up!

    • versuscorp

      As veterans, we try to warn bro..:)

      If you didn’t play since 5 years, it means you couldnt play aos deeply for now. But when you start to play deeply, you will see the very unbalanced and bad game. Then you will realize..

      In addition to that, until that time you would spend a lot of money. Maybe one day when you woke up you will see there is nothing left from the game you used to because GW might change everything..

      But if you enjoy it okey np, enjoy it..:)

      • Countdiscount

        Glad people that hate AoS are there to tell people who like AoS how wrong they are. Who are we to think we can properly evaluate our opinion on a game and like it.

  • kaptinscuzgob

    “Warscrolls which does not have any of the following Keywords you can find below”

    come on guys, really.

  • El Boyo del Reko

    Why isn’t there a “stock exchange” of models’ cost in place where active players can vote for models value up or down, creating sliding and adapting points costs for the game?
    (Is anybody working on such?)

    I.e. if gamers find that 10 points is too steep for a marauder the cost for one should drop to 9 points by the power of the hive mind of gamers everywhere.

    • Axis Mundi

      Maybe check out ClashComp – what you describe is more or less how it’s developed. It’s just responding to the gamers who use it, and take the time to give feedback, but it’s nice to see points moving to reflect players experiences at tournaments. Not perfect, but when was democracy perfect – famous as the least worst system we’ve come up with.

  • Richard Mitchell

    I am glad that there are a group of fans so dedicated to the game. But if you’re going to be paying that much money in rules, models, terrain, time lost painting and putting together the models, you really shouldn’t have the manage the game as well to make it work. Its really not an angsty sentiment. It is just weird to me and at the same time I probably would have understood it ten years ago. As I get older and less tolerant with bs (meaner I guess) and I just don’t see the point in paying so much money to have the privilege to fix a game. I am not a game designer, no one is compensating me with hard cash for the time. So when I pay 70+ for rules, yes I expect the rules to be near perfect, the layout to be gorgeous, the game itself to be thoroughly playtested.

    • Axis Mundi

      But what if you payed $0 for the rules (AoS is free after all)? Does having to go online to download a PDF with a points system (ClashComp if you want one playtested and updated regularly by the UK tournament scene) constitute a major burden? There’s even a free online army builder to go with it. That’s if you want a system to balance things, which I personally like, so I use it.

      I’m really enjoying AoS, more than any other tabletop game I’ve played in the last 30+ years, and it’s making me kinda sad that such a small problem is being used as a massive stick to beat this game with.

      • Agent OfBolas

        So we have totally opposite feelings about AoS. I’m playing wargames since 18 years and AoS is one of the worse things I had on table.

        It’s nice you like it, but for example for me – the game is terribad.

        • Axis Mundi

          It’s really the oddest thing – I guess this is the problem with us all choosing different points systems and ways to play, we’re ending up with extremely varied experiences of the game.

      • Richard Mitchell

        I don’t really see it as a massive stick to beat the game down. It really matters where you are come from. If you entered the hobby when comps were pretty much regulation throughout the hobby in any miniature genre, I think the idea of incomplete rules being released for a game and comping the rest is pretty much standard.

        This is kinda of like playing DnD with just a narrative and a character sheet. You bought books and then everything was camp story level of abstraction. If you entered the hobby now, I just don’t think that sort of market expectation is unreasonable. I loved all text games when I was growing up, (and play by mail for those of you who remember) but I don’t expect a comeback for these styles of gaming.

        I think the “you manage the game” sort of format would have been big or unnoticed 20-30 years ago but times are different. Wages have not kept up with inflation, more work hours to keep up, and the competition growing in the miniature and board game market as these games move from niche to expanding markets work against this comp style of play. As a result technology, rulesets, and quality expectation.

        I know speaking for myself, beyond my work, family, son, and outside of work professional development I don’t really have time to shell out a lot of money for a product and expect to look up comp rules and build a group consensus on the local level as to what to use. I expect the company to take care of rule development, playtesting, and quality control, and community management for the dollars I invest in it. Now talk to me in 30 years when I retire and my kid is all grown and I might tell you a different story.

      • Richard Mitchell

        I really don’t think it is a matter of someone beating the game up. It really matters when you entered the hobby and how you have grown with it. Back in the day, comping for rules was the standard no matter the company or genre of miniatures game. Some didn’t even come with rules.

        It was like DnD when I got into it as a kid. All you needed were rulebooks and character sheets and you could play with a campfire story level of abstraction. I don’t think this is possible or at least having this expectation out of the majority of the market is just unreasonable. I loved text adventures like Zork, and play by mail, but I don’t expect a resurgence in this.

        What GW has done is kept the expectation that players will comp there rules for the last 30 years and this is the problem. Some of them are out of GW’s control and others are not.

        There has been a stagnation of wages to inflation over the last 30 years so people want more out of thier dollar and people are working longer to keep up. This means less time to paint and comp rules. Digital media has tax’ed the sort of elements people expect in their games.

        With the price of digital games and computers there has been a resurgence in miniature and board games. The market is bigger so GW should be getting bigger, however the market is more competitive thanks to technologies such as digital printers and the expansion of freelance work.

        Young companies can hire talented artists to digitally sculpt and create high quality sculpts for models.

        China also plays a part because of thier monetary manipulation to keep production costs low to entice foreign investors. Manufacturing these items in bulk is relatively cheap for young companies.

        Basically, if you have been into only play GW products over the last 30 years or before the crash of 2006 the approach of producing models and expecting customers to comp rules for them and sustain communities is the standard. However, because of changes, some within and some outside of GW’s control, customers have the expectation that if they are paying a pretty penny for rules, models, terrain, and gas to drive to place to play their expecations are more demanding. They expect tight rules they don’t have to search the internet for to make them work, rules need to be uniform with quality control and extensive playtesting, even community management and engagment.

        I know between family, my son, work, and the professional development I pay to do outside of work hours, I have a hard enough time painting and getting outside to play. Now a company wants me to comp rules, choose comp rules, and then hope that is what is being used where ever I play, on top of paying top dollar for thier models and thier rule books, (outside of the full starter rulebooks present in almost every two player starter set), and do it yourself community engagement. Sorry I don’t have time for it. And if the counterargument is “well if you don’t have time for these things maybe you shouldn’t play” the problem is other companies do offer the same type of product without the same type of demands placed upon me as a consumer.

        I hope this doesn’t obfuscate my points. I am not a GW hater, but these are things to take into account when people are expressing ant-GW sentiments. There are social pressures running in the static of human expressions.

    • standardleft

      I think its giving people who really enjoyed the min maxing and point system of 8th something to play with.

      They can find enjoyment creating a ruleset for them or their club, then competing against other groups for the most popular and balanced ruleset out there.

      I think its a plus.

  • Damon Sherman

    so, has anyone actually looked at the doc?

  • Squeeker

    AOS is not warhammer fantasy Battle, that game is dead and buried. AOS is a new and different game, with new models and rules, set in a different era. Yes you can still use the old models. I played every previous edition since 1990, and WFB died due to rubbish 8th ed rules. I once again enjoy playing with my WFB models, it might not suite tournement play, but its quick , simple and fun. You balance the sides between yourselves through trial and error.

  • Graeme Donaldson

    The problem for me is that points won’t fix all the problems with AoS without changing the fundamentals of the game. I was discussing this with a friend the other day, there’s no way to safely quantify some units under the AoS rules. Sure you can go “a necromancer is 130 points” but does this factor in the fact that a necromancer can potentially summon a 360 point zombie dragon in every turn? But then if you factor this in and make necros 500 points then what about if you wanted a necromancer simply to buff units with his default spell and not summon things?
    The only way I can think of making it fair is by having the spells as additional addons, so if you want a lowly necromancer he’s X, if you want one that can summon “Hero” units, it’s +X, summon “Monsters” it’s +X on top etc. But then we’re going totally away from Age of Sigmar’s “no magic items, no costed upgrades”.
    Then again the thing I miss most about AoS is not having magic items, the joy of making custom heroes with backstories and abilities (like vampires and wight kings etc) is gone now, every vampire or wight king is exactly the same as the next and all the character models are just one pose with only one model released regardless of fluff (see my unit of 5 monopose cairn wraiths or 3 vampire lords that are the exact same model), just bland.

  • nurglitch

    Lack of points is a feature, not a bug.

  • Stormandreas

    These rules are NOT balanced.

    The way Sigmar is designed, is that every box, straight off the shelf, is one warscroll. The game is based on Warscroll balance, NOT model or point balance.
    So if you have say, saurus Warriors, who come in boxes of 20, that’s one Scroll, against say, Bloodletters, who come in 10, that’s also 1 Scroll.
    So now lets do a 7 scroll vs 7 scroll battle. That can allow you easily 2 hero’s, a monster or two, and some basic units. I’ve tested this method extensively, and it makes the games feel much more interesting, engaging AND balanced.
    (for reference, if you want more in a unit, its easiest to use another Warscroll, and add another full box on, so 40 Warriors is 2 Warscrolls)

    I am pretty confident that IS how Sigmar is designed to play, but they can’t well put on the rules “one box of a unit straight off the shelf will count as one Warscroll”

  • Secundum

    Units are already redundant.