Wrath of Magnus: Arsenal of the Rubrics

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BoLS will be bringing you Wrath of Magnus coverage all week. Let’s start our exploration with the Thousand Son’s new weapons.

This is a BIG day – with another new Chaos Marine army being added to the Warhammer 40,000 universe. After a decade in the dark the Thousand Sons are back with a nefarious vengeance. They are an army that will utterly dominate the psychic phase and will bring a unique set of abilities to thier players and challenger to their foes.  More on that in the days ahead.

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All is Dust…

What we will say is the GW Design Studio has done a great job of updating the boring and underpowered single Thousand Sons unit from the CSM codex, expanding upon it and keeping it’s original flavor intact.  Look for an army full of icy automotons marching forward in lockstep, under the control of myraid levels of Sorcerous leaders.  From the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers leading each squad or Rubrics all the way up to Magnus the Red himself, you will find a perfect set of psykers to produce as much power as you desire. These will of course be backed up by a set of formations, relics and new psychic Discipline of Tzeentch to kick things up a notch.

Finally remember, the Thousand Sons are only one of TWO fully fledged factions with Detachments in the book.  Just wait till the Pandemoniad hits the tabletop!

But enough of the teases – we’ll have much more on that this week.  Today let’s take a look at some basics and unveil one key set of stats the community has been clamoring for.

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Look at that SEXY cover!  If only my Rubrics looked so good when I painted them up.

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Here’s the table of contents to give you a head start on what to expect.  Take a good look at those new units and formation names to get a feel for the army.

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Every army needs a fantastic logo to get you all excited and I’m LOVING the psychic-bird flavored bit of craziness.

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 The biggest reveal so far has been the new plastic kits for the Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators.  Not only are the models fantastic, but the mere existence of Cult Termys in plastic is getting other CSM players buzzing with anticipation.  Once everyone was past the initial shock the questions starting pouring in – what the heck kind of weapons are they carrying? We aren’t here to spill the beans on every new unit in the book – you need to buy it for that, but here are the weapons of the Thousand Sons. Note the “Warpflame” special rule is unchanged from the rule in Codex:Chaos Daemons.

The Soulreaper Cannon and Heavy Warpflamer are particularly impressive.

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War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus (Hardback) $75

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The skies of Fenris are aflame, the awful truth revealed. The Thousand Sons, hidden architects of the Space Wolves’ darkest hour, have launched an arcane invasion across those realms sacred to the Sons of Russ. The Wulfen’s Curse has taken hold, the daemonic invasions that followed it a precursor to deadly Imperial bombardments that saw Chapter set against Chapter. The bringer of this system-spanning doom is Magnus the Red, an ancient demigod overthrown by the Fenrisians of yore. With the daemon primarch’s reappearance in realspace, a vendetta ten thousand years in the making has flared into world-shattering violence. The Crimson King is back to conquer Fenris, and the legions of the Warp march with him.

The Books

War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus is the concluding part of the saga that began with War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen, in which the Thousand Sons return to Fenris to enact vengeance on the hated Space Wolves – led by their Daemon Primarch, Magnus the Red.

Book 1

This 136-page hardback book contains the thunderous, galaxy-shaking story of the Wrath of Magnus; set over 3 chapters, it features a huge selection of brand-new artwork supporting the story within. There’s also a uniform guide, with colours and icon guides for several Thousand Sons warbands:

– Thralls of Magnus
– The Sectai Prosperine
– The Tizcan Host
– The Prism of Fate
– The Blades of Magnus
– The Exiled and Estranged

Book 2

The 64-page book 2 of War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus features a huge amount of new Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons:

New datasheets, special rules and wargear for:
– Ahriman
– Exalted Sorcerer
– Tzaangors
– Rubric Marines
– Scarab Occult Terminators
– Magnus the Red

6 Formations for Codex: Chaos Space Marines:
– War Cabal
– War Coven
– Tzaangor Warherd
– Sekhmet Conclave
– Ahriman’s Exiles
– Rehati War Sect

Plus new and updated psychic disciplines:
– an updated Discipline of Tzeentch
– Sinistrum Discipline
– Heretech Discipline
– Ectomancy Discipline
– Geomortis Discipline

Thousand Sons special rules:
– 6 Thousand Sons Warlord Traits
– Chaos Artefacts of the Thousand Sons
– Thousand Sons Grand Coven Detachment
– 6 Thousand Sons Tactical Objectives
– 3 Thousand Sons Altar of War missions

New datasheets, special rules and wargear for:
– Pink Horrors
– Blue Horrors
– Brimstone Horrors

4 Formations for Codex: Chaos Daemons:
– Lorestealer Host
– Brimstone Conflagration
– Omniscient Oracles
– Heralds Anarchic

Plus new and updated daemonic loci and icons of Chaos.

Daemons of Tzeentch special rules:
– Tzeentchian Warp Storm table
– Pandemoniad of Tzeentch Detachment
– 6 Daemons of Tzeentch Tactical Objectives
– 3 Daemons of Tzeentch Altar of War missions

~Have fun folks, and check back all week for more Wrath of Magnus reviews and more.

P.S. The entire fluff book is amazing and like the last page says… “The Imperium will never be the same again”

  • mike

    Giggity.

  • petrow84

    If Salamanders get FnP against Hellfyre missiles, do they fyght fyre wyth fyre?

    • jeff white

      u must mean salymandyrs…

      • petrow84

        Yndyyd.

        • Emprah

          Let us make our own Hellfire missiles special!
          But how, Chief Sorcerer?
          Rename them Hellfyre!

          • Charon

            and reduce their range

  • Karru

    That Soulreaper Cannon is terrifying. 1 less Strength than a Assault Cannon, but better AP. Usable by the basic Rubricae Marines, that thing can dish out a lot of damage. This could even cause problems for those pesky Eldar Lists that run Bikes and Warp Spiders. As long as you aren’t completely brainless with your shooting and know a thing or two about positioning.

    Overall, these guys might be pretty good on the tabletop, that would be the first time in ages since CSM has gotten something that would allow them to be fielded, instead of being just a single formation ally in the form of Cabal.

    • Nyyppä

      Remember that, if GW is consistent, you have to pay 250p just to get a chance to add one of those for additional cost.

      • E65

        Well, one assumes points will be fixed.

        • Malisteen

          if one assumed that, one would be wrong. Points costs and special rules for thousand sons units remain unchanged, only the only difference is new weapon options, and while that soulreaper cannon looks nice, you need to field a full unit of ten at a ludicrous cost to deploy even one.

          The terminators can take one in a unit of five, but their points cost is even more ludicrous than that of the power armored version, sooo… yeah. It would be a nice gun if it didn’t cost you 250+ points to deploy even one, but it does, so it isn’t.

          • Moke

            [citation needed]

          • Malisteen

            blood of kittens

          • Karru

            Thank you.

          • Karru

            Can I have a source for your information? I haven’t found any pictures from the book regarding the price of the Thousand Sons Marines or Terminators. I would really like to have it.

          • Malisteen

            Haven’t seen pictures for unit entries yet, but the pricing info is coming from the same source as pictures for other things (rules & restrictions for thousand sons detachments, etc), so… if you want to maintain hope/skepticism for the moment you’re free to do so for the moment, I suppose, but it’s a bit of a stretch at this point.

            Anyway, look at Bolterandchainsword’s rumor subforum, or blood of kittens’ WoM rumor compilation.

          • E65

            You have had a chance to look over the unit points?

          • Malisteen

            they’ve been posted in a rumor thread, on B&C I think? Anyway, collected on blood of kittens. 250 for 5 terminators, +40 per extra guy. 150 for 5 in power armor, +23 per extra guy.

          • E65

            OK

        • Nyyppä

          It’s CSM. They’ve had literally 6 chances to do that between the codex release and now and they have not even tried. I hope your assumption is correct, but it is highly unlikely.

    • Christie Bryden

      and those rubricae can use it while moving.

      • Malisteen

        Those rubicae can’t even field one unless you take a full unit of 10 for a frankly inexcusable points cost, before paying for gun itself.

        • Karru

          As I posted on your other comment, can I get a picture with the said prices and rules that you stated.

    • benn grimm

      That soul reaper cannon is basically a disintegrator cannon, with one more shot, worse ap and worse range and you have to spend considerably more to get one on a much slower platform. And dissy cannons are far from terrifying.

    • Charon

      1 per 10 rubrics is not terrifying.
      1 per 5 scarabs is not either.

      Why on earth do poeple see new things as “terrifying” or “strong” when we had units like the Executioner with 5 plasma blasts and a lascannon for ages without anyone claiming it “terrifying”.
      Especially the point about Warpspiders (the major strenght is not a 3+. but jumping out of LoS) and scatterbikes is ridiculous. You end up around 300 points for one unit with soulreaper either way which buys you nearly 4 units of 3 scatterbikes (12 in total) that do not give a crap about a 300 points unit shooting at 80 points.

      • ZeeLobby

        Eh. It’ll all die down when it actually hits the field

      • benn grimm

        I think it’s called clutching at straws…

  • Simon Chatterley

    Has anyone been able to fully confirm how the Pink Horrors work yet? I read the review by Reecius yesterday and they sounded utterly broken but he only skim read it so hopefully missed something. Hopefully….

    • Charon

      Each horros splits in 2 blue horros (S2/T2) and each blue horror splits in 1 Brimsorone horror base (S1/T1/W2).

      The only thing that is utterly broken with them is the amount of minis you need. You need 50 models for each unit of 10 pink horrors.
      It even gets worse wich a locus that doubles splitting (so 1 pink = 4 blue = 8 Brimstone).

      While they are hard to remove completely they are not more powerful than before. Also the amount of models you need is prohibitive (130 models for 10 pink horrors with locus)

      • Simon Chatterley

        The cost will be the only regulator to this. Ignore toughness as it irrelevant in this discussion. In an objective led game you have a unit that can be sat on an objective with ob-sec which as you try and kill it off said objective just swamps the area with more and then more again units. There’s almost no point even attacking them at range as it will just make it harder to get nearer to the objective.

        Then of course you have Horrors making more Horrors each psychic phase…

        A CAD with 6 units is going to be near unbeatable in 5 of the 6 missions standard and in the LVO style mixed games is going to be tough as well since they will likely rack up maelstrom from objective holding.

        This level of super boost is exactly what happened the the Elves in the End Times..they just became nigh impossible to stop to the point where if your opponent had it you were better just giving the game at the start rather than having to witness the frustration that the army was in front of you.

        But maybe that means 7th is getting burned down for 8th…which is no bad thing

        • Charon

          Yes and no. As the majority toughness counts, it only needs 4 dead pink horrors to drop the entire unit to T2 which makes it significantly easier to remove, even for lasguns.

          • benn grimm

            That’s if they remain as part of the unit, which unfortunately, seems not to be the case.

        • NagaBaboon

          Is T1 irrelevant? Won’t they be instant deathed if they’re hit by a weapon S2 or above or has that rule gone in 7th? If it’s not having 2 wounds is irrelevant as every attack will kill both of them.

      • Erber

        Your math is off. With Ioucus you need 90 models not 130. Remember that blue horrors split into two brimstones but on a single base. You even adjusted for that in your first calculation.
        Still a ridiculous amount of models though…

        • Charon

          10 pinks split into 40 blues, each blue splits into 2 brimstones (80 in total)
          10 + 40 + 80 = 130

          You are right that blues split into one base of brimstones normally (2 models share one base). But that amount is also doubled by the Locus, so each blue splits into 2 bases of brimstone.

    • benn grimm

      Bit of a head scratcher unit, I agree they seem entirely ridiculous rules wise (for the same points as before???) and with no box set release for blues and brims, do they really expect people to buy (many) multiples of Silver Tower in order to use them? Baffling gw as usual.

  • BartTP

    Hey, quick question. Can acolyte hybrids or aberrants without infiltration arrive via ambush in turn one – or they appear like reserves in turn two?

    • MelonNeko

      they roll for reserves starting turn 2

  • TeAXIII

    #crusader_formation_please
    Make it happen.

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      • Ratbasket

        Get in the sea

  • MightyOrang

    If every line trooper is carrying an AP3 bolster then they’re not just going dominate the psychic phase!

    And if the following is accurate then we’re not going to see complicated detachments and such go away in 8th.

    ‘ Look for an army full of icy automotons marching forward in lockstep, under the control of myraid levels of Sorcerous leaders. From the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers leading each squad or Rubrics all the way up to Magnus the Red himself, you will find a perfect set of psykers to produce as much power as you desire. These will of course be backed up by a set of formations..’

    • Nyyppä

      Let’s list the factions that care about ap3: Loyalist Space Marines.

      Not a big deal especially now that those loyalists get free transports.

      • georgelabour

        Crisis suits.

        Warp Spiders.

        Eldar Jetbikes.

        Stormsurge

        Kastellan robots

        Ghost Keel

        Kataphron breachers

        You left a bunch more off your list but I’m sure you were just ‘forging a narrative’ by limiting yourself.

        • Malisteen

          Thousand sons units have had AP3 bolters for ages now, and they’ve still been one of the worst units in the game. From what has been seen so far, this supplement does not change that.

          Yes, ap3 is nice, but honestly the meaningful threats in this game aren’t 3+ save infantry, and even the 3+ save infantry that is threatening still generally has invulnerable saves or cover saves, so you’re typically better off targeting them through their armor with small arms fire, rather than taking a reduced rate of fire to try to shoot around their armor.

          Thousand sons are super expensive and super specialized an a roll that CSMs don’t need specialists for to begin with. Worse, the’re not even very good at their jobs. Prohibitive points cost means they don’t put out a lot of firepower. Short range, slow speed, limited delivery options, and no overwatch means many things get to charge them from outside their effective threat range, or just kill them from outside of it.

          Worse, their extremely high points cost means their highly vulnerable to small arms fire killing them through their power armor. Oh, sure, they’ve got invulnerable saves, but when you drop like flies to regular bolter fire, you aren’t really effective meq hunters, are you?

          The models are fantastic, and the unit is cool, but rules wise they’re still awful, because that awfulness was built into their core points cost, stat line, and special rules, and none of that has changed.

          • Matt Halkos

            Dude I’ve seen you complain on this thread about four times or so already. How about you wait for the rules before completing discounting the army. You are getting a freaking primarch for Christ’s sake. Other armies are in way worse shape.

          • Malisteen

            I never said other armies weren’t in worse shape. And the primarch is cool. If wrath of magnus were Magnus only, I wouldn’t be complaining as much. But thousand sons have been terrible for a long time, so its heartbreaking to see probably the best chance of fixing that just utterly fumbled, and chaos cult players have been begging for cult terminators forever, so it’s heartbreaking to see that fumbled as well.

            Imagine an extravagant new tyranid, ork, or dark eldar release that not only failed to fix the problems with those factions’ worst units, but displayed a complete lack of awareness that there even were problems in the first place. Those players wouldn’t be happy either.

          • georgelabour

            Not sure why you’re making those arguments towards me. All I did was provide a short list of some of the models that care if you have AP3.

            That some of them also seem highly popular with tournament goers, and that denying them armor saves might be a good idea was never brought up.

          • Malisteen

            I didn’t mean to direct the arguments specifically towards you, just adding them to the thread. AP3 bolters sound impressive, but thousand sons have had them for ages now, and they’ve been terrible all that time.

        • Karru

          Let’s not forget that those AP3 bolters can now also remove Armour from things that are 4+. That makes another list as well. This is a basic bolter we are talking about here. Carapace Veterans, Tau Fire Warriors, ‘Eavy Armoured Orks are now more vulnerable to basic bolters.

          They have Cover saves? Okay, then it doesn’t matter. Your Thousand Son unit is now in the angle where this is not the case? That is one dead unit. I also do count it a slight improvement if I force my opponent to either Jink or use a worse save than what they could normally use. You have a 4+ Cover save, instead of a 3+ save? Great, that is more likely to fail so it’s good.

          • georgelabour

            I didn’t want to make my list to overly long so I tried to limit myself to things internet ‘gaming prophets’ have been declaring ‘super good tourny winning awsome brokes’

        • Nyyppä

          Not really efficient anyway.
          Flicker jump = no hits.
          Longer range = not enough hit when the actual shooting starts.
          T6, fnp, cover saves, costs less than 2 TS squads which can deliver one wound together per turn.
          Someone plays those?
          2+ cover save.
          I’m pretty sure that their range is longer and they produce more grav hits than a same cost TS squads.

          The fact is that there obviously are more 3+ armor than tactical marines, but no other faction suffers as much as the SM, and the SM suffer so little that they do not care.

          • georgelabour

            You didn’t say that it was ineffficient you claimed there were no other factions that would be bothered by it. Conveniently ignoring the fact that most models in the game don’t have 2+ armor saves.

            And in your rush to dismiss any other facts contrary to your personal narrative you seem to have decided that every game of 40k will be played by one guy setting his models up in a straight line that never moves, and the other guy will be a tactical genius who makes no mistakes, and plays the ‘perfect’ army.

          • Nyyppä

            I stand by that claim still. If you look carefully you will see how your previous post had a list of things, that my previous post has similar list of things that and if compared to one another the 2 fit perfectly. I did not claim that marines are inefficient. I claimed that marines are the faction(s) that cares about ap3, which is true since no other faction does, and that that one faction has no reason to really do so because of the free taxi service it gets, which is also true.

            You seem to “conveniently ignore” the fact that most of the common weapons in the game are ap3 or better. One more means nothing especially since that one more is another faction, a low power faction on top of that and thus makes none of the previous factions better. It’s not like there would be more things that are good against 3+ or worse, there’s just one more faction that does what the rest of them do already.

            No, we are not looking at the full list of all the units that exist in the game. We are looking at the units that win competitions.

          • georgelabour

            Scatter lasers, lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, pulse rifles, Shuriken weapons, Death spinners, Galvanic rifles, rad carbines, shootas of all kinds, and normal close combat weapons are not AP3.

            As those comprise the seeming majority of weapons in this game I’m not seeing how you arrived at the conclusion that the most common weapons are AP3 or better.

            You can also add autocannons, missile pods, heavy flamers, and grenade launchers to that though they can hardly be considered ‘the most common’.

            Several of of those also belong to units that win competitions. Units which of course also do not have 2+ armor saves and thus care about being shot by up to twenty AP3 shots a turn.

            So again your narrative ends up being a work of opinion. Perhaps one based on a localized bias skewing your perspective but a work of opinion nonetheless.

          • Nyyppä

            Wait…what? Since when were tournaments won by bolters, lasguns or others like that? Never? The units that carry them, sure, just not because of those weapons. The MSU marine spam could use bolt pistols and still not lose anything significant. Death spinners are ap2, just not all the time. I’m not familiar with admech but they are not exactly dominating the competitions. I don’t think that orks have won anything significant this year.

            Anyway, you know what my point is, you know that the point is valid and I’m not going to go further with your straw man rampage. Go troll somewhere else.

          • georgelabour

            Death spinners are about as much an AP2 weapons as a plasma rifle is one that always kills its user before hitting a target.

            Ad mech has won a few notable tournaments around the country. Even without access to drop pods.

            Further you stated that “that most of the common weapons in the game are ap3 or better.” Which is an easily disprove statement.

            Furthermore if I found your points valid I would not be pointing out the significant errors in them.

            And of course… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

            To bring this back to the original point of contention you said. “Let’s list the factions that care about ap3: Loyalist Space Marines.”

            My refutation included units from three different factions. Even though any force that does not have a universal 2+ armor save is in fact effected I limited it to those that I often see theoryhammer players bring up in discussion.

            You chose to make claims that would rely on only one player having any real grasp of basic tactics, and in which the best case scenario favors only the outcomes you wish to see occur. Those were not only highly improbably but also irrelevant to the original statement.

            That you then tried to make this about ‘what’s common’ , and ‘what’s at tournaments’ was in fact an attempt at a straw man argument. Ones which relied on a biased perspective and or outright ignoring relevant data to obtain the desired conclusion.

            And after all of that my original statement remains quite correct.

            Have a pleasant evening.

          • Nyyppä

            Dude, you lost when you needed to lie about what I said. Just let it go, you are not going to redeem yourself with this.

          • georgelabour

            So I hacked your account and editied your statement from 16 hours ago (from this post) to say..

            “Let’s list the factions that care about ap3: Loyalist Space Marines.

            Not a big deal especially now that those loyalists get free transports.”

            Wow..I must be some kind of demented genius to not only manage that but for you to not even go back and change it to what you actually claim you wrote earlier.

            Just imagine what else I could do with this internet controlling super power of mine!

          • Nyyppä

            Nope, that’s not it. Nice try build a straw man but you need to do better than that. Again, you failed back when you started to lie and you can not redeem yourself anymore.

          • georgelabour

            I have not said one untrue thing…and you even corroborate this by affirming that the words I responded to are in fact the ones you wrote.

            If you have nothing of relevance to actually substantiate your original position that no other factions outside of a singular instance are affected by AP3 weapons then kindly cease your attempt at an ad hominem attacks upon my person.

          • Nyyppä

            True. Now you’ve said two untrue things. The first lie and now you lie by claiming that you never told the first lie.

            Like I said, my point is valid, you know it, I know it and so does everyone else willing to look further than their kitchen table. You can go on with your deliberate misinterpretations if you wish. I do not care unless you have something that proves me wrong. Thus far you’ve presented nothing even remotely solid enough.

            You know, the fact that you are wrong does not make you a bad person. It’s ok to admit that you too have flaws.

      • Karru

        Out of interest, do you ever see anything positive in anything? Do you purposefully ignore most things to support an argument why something is worthless garbage just to make sure that everyone would also find nothing positive in anything?

        • Nyyppä

          The eldar codex, despite being cheesy, is the best design this game has seen. It’s awesome, at times broken, but still awesome. I don’t ever want to play against present day eldar, but they are a great design. That’s something good.

          I point out the flaws because so many diehard fanbois praise the good things, some times even when those things are really, really useless. You know, like the DS+charge raptors in TH, which would be great but there is no way to mitigate the scatter and the raptors have point for point one of the most inefficient melee outputs for a melee unit in the game. Good in theory, the opposite in practice.

          • Alpharius

            It’s true, there is nothing in that codex that sucks, and the broken stuff is only broken if you spam the crap out of it (not a problem if playing against other human beings and not wasting your time in idiotic tournament settings). All books should be like the Eldar book.

          • Karru

            Exactly. People seem to forget that there are other ways to play and majority of people play it that way. They don’t play it in hardcore tournament style as much as some might think.

          • Alpharius

            Pretty much, the vast majority of the player base never shows up at the cutthroat tournaments and/or just participates in narrative battles. Trying to play this game in a tight competitive setting is a literal example of having fun the wrong way.

          • Karru

            Indeed. My friend plays a Warpsmith as his Warlord in his Iron Warrior Army. I saw him beat a Guard list with that army. It had 0 Obliterators in it, no Heldrakes, Spawns or Bikes, used mostly basic CSM squads and it had 2 Vindicators. The army looks gorgeous and is extremely fun to play against. It is sad that people who posts about massive uselessness of certain units and abilities don’t seem to have the option to experience these types of games. They only seem to be able to play high level competitive gaming.

          • Nyyppä

            WK is cheese, even one. Scatter bikes are also cheese. Depending on the terrain a lone warp spider squad might be also cheese. The seer council is cheese. If none of the above are present the army is very likely just good.

        • Charon

          Out of interest. Do you want to discuss hard facts and number or your emotions? If it is the first you have absolutely no right to accuse soemone of negativity when numbers support the other parties claim.
          If it is the second your oppinion has no worth in an discussion about facts as you will just label anything that does not support your “gut instincts” or “honeymoon efect” just as “negative”.

          • Karru

            His original comment: “Let’s list the factions that care about ap3: Loyalist Space Marines.”

            Is this true in your mind? Are loyalist THE only army in the game right now that cares about AP3?

            My views are always based on two things, my own experience with similar weapons and how they fit my playstyle. I have some hope that some people would be able to understand that hardcore tournament scene isn’t the only way to play this game. At least for me, I do not know how bad things are where you play, but going with your comments that is the only option for you. In this case, I pity you because you aren’t able to enjoy this game as long as you don’t play Eldar or SM. I support my claims with facts, facts that you and many others ignore completely because they are either not compared to Eldar/SM “unbeatable” lists.

            What I have noticed from pretty much all of your comments regarding effectiveness is the following: “If it is not automatic removal unit/weapon for free, it is absolutely worthless. It has no use in this game and should be removed as there is no other playstyles in this game outside hardcore competitive tournament ‘win-at-all-cost’ style playing.”

          • Charon

            Actually there are not a lot of armies that fully rely on armor as armor has gotten worse over the editions.
            Crons rely more on their reanimation and try to boost it then on their 3+ or 4+ while Eldar rely on out of sequence moves to mitigate damage.
            That leaves us with marines and maybe nid MCs who are actually hurt by AP3.
            So yes, this is not far away from the truth that Marines are one of the few armies that actually care about AP3 as they lack other damage mitigation (even wolves try to get a 3++ to protect their units).

            This has nothing to do with ” the hardcore tournament scene” or whatever picture you try to conjure here.
            Lets seee the executioner for example. FAR away from a competitive choice in “the hardcore tournament scene”.
            It features 5 S7 AP2 blasts (and 1 S9 AP2 shot) for a lot less points than the AP3 rubrics.
            This was never labeled as “amazing”.
            Sternguard is by far cheaper than 1k sons and also gets AP3.
            Where was your “omg this is amazing, just think about all this AP3 shots” post then?
            The only reason you jump on the hype train is because something is new. And not even the rubrics are new (beyond new models), they have not gotten any more useful than before.
            So again: Why do you think Rubrics are so much better now when basically nothing has changed since their last incarnation?

            And this is where you get personal and try to derail again. Claiming all opionions and facts that try to prove you wrong are nothing more than WAAC attempts from hardcore tournamnet players who need an i-win button.
            You have not a single solid fact in your rant. No numbers, no attempt on formulationg strategies or tactics, nothing. It is just a rant.

          • Karru

            I already know you are going to ignore complete truths here so you can further reinforce your ridiculous claims and try to paint me in a light that is completely wrong.

            In my other post, I made a comment regarding the effectiveness of Sternguard to Thousand Sons Rubric Marines before. 220pts vs 265pts is not good. I have never said that the Thousand Sons bolters are ZOMGSOGOOD. I have also not said that the Rubrics are game breakers in terms of effectiveness. This is all you, as I said you enjoy taking half truths to reinforce your false claims that you say are “facts”.

            Both you and Nyyppä completely ignored the fact that being AP3 doesn’t meant that they are only ignoring 3+ save. Tau with their 3+ suits and 4+ Fire Warriors are currently under threat from normal bolters. Of course, to you this doesn’t matter as the Thousand Sons player never could get a shot of since that would once again ruin your “fact”.

            I have said this already a few times. Thousand Sons are overpriced. The +35pts tax for the nigh useless sorcerer needs to go or they need to improve him to make up for that point hike. Thousand Sons also could do a little price decrease, but to me the biggest problem is the Sorcerer.

            You gave the Executioner as an example. Okay, how is that thing supposed to take objectives? Those Thousand Sons are 4++ and have the ability to bring it up to 3++ with the Force power that the Sorcerer has. In a normal CAD, they have Objective Secured. All worthless since we know that in your world these guys are obliterated on the first turn with 0 saves made no matter what is shot at them and all the objectives are out in the open.

            Finally, Rubric HAVE gotten more useful. What did Rubric have before this update:

            10-squad for 265pts, they had 4++, a useless Sorcerer since he had to use the utterly useless Tzeentch Discipline from the CSM book and AP3 Bolters. That’s it.

            What do they have now:

            Same as before BUT they now have access to new weapon options, unfortunately still useless Tzeentch table and the ability to improve their invulnerable save by 1. Of course, to you this is once again worthless since it would undermine your “fact”. This is clearly not even slightly better since even if they had options or even a free rule addition, it still doesn’t mean they are better even if by a tiny amount.

            You say that you don’t compare the effectiveness to “hardcore tournament scene”, that might be true, but at the very least you are looking to utterly crush your opponent with Alpha Strike. You only thought about the damage output of the unit. Nothing else seemed to matter. It didn’t matter that the Executioner is a Heavy Support Choice that has the potential of dying with the very first shot taken at it or that it cannot hold objectives against Objective Secured units. It is clearly a thousand (pun intended) times better than the Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, because the Rubric Marines doesn’t have as much firepower. Their survivability or ability to take objectives is something that should be ignored completely since that would once again undermine your “fact”.

            You say that I don’t have facts in my argument, yet you use half truths and extreme scenarios that never actually happen to support your “facts”. When someone calls you out on these with actual facts and brings out the entire picture, you start to scream like a monkey that they have no idea what they are talking about and pull out even worse “facts” that are starting to reach the “lie” side of the spectrum.

            In other words, I don’t have the crayons, patience and time to argue more about this with you. You have made yourself very clear that you have no intentions of having a civil argument with actual full facts, nor do you have the ability to accept when you are corrected. So welcome to the list of people I completely ignore from now on.

    • Charon

      Not too much of an issue as the shots are pretty limited.
      A unit of 5 1k sons with soulreaper is 200 points, which is 4 S5 AP3 shots and 4 S4 AP3 shots.
      200 points.
      Thats is 5 points more than an imperial guard Executioner with a blast 3 Plasmacannon, 2 additional blast plasma cannons and a lascannon (all AP2) at AV14.
      I really dont see AP3 becoming a major issue at this point cost.

      Even your humble Sternguard with 4 grav AND Drop pod is 5 points cheaper.

      • Malisteen

        according to the rumors on blood of kittens, you need to take a full unit of 10 rubicae to unlock the option to buy a single soulreaper for the unit. So, 265, before you buy the cannon.

        Unless you’re talking about the terminators, but they supposedly start at 250 points, again before buying the cannon.

        • Charon

          Wll then it would be even a lot worse than Grav Cents anyways.

      • MightyOrang

        Fair point.

        • Charon

          Gets even worse as you actually can only have 1 soulreaper per 10 rubrics and not 5.
          Which means: 9 S4 Ap3 shots and 4 S5 AP3 shots at 300 points… at which point you get 3 Grav centurions wit additional missile launcher and omiscope for 20 points less.

      • georgelabour

        I think it’d be more apt to compare the rubric marines to the Kataphron destroyers.

        Especially since my experience with executioners is….well let’s just say I threw out those dice after the third game.

        And drop podding units seem to fit a different niche that’s likely going to go to deep striking daemons or other units in a T-sons army.

        Kataphrons on the other hand have some of the same advantages and weakness along with a similar tactical style to the rubrics. Though at first glance the heavy grav cannon will seem to outperform those Ap3 bolters it’s still not entirely a done deal.

        Especially since we don’t have a clear picture of how all the jigsaw pieces in this new army list will fit together.

        • Charon

          Most of the rules and datasheet have already leaked at various sites, so the puzzle is pretty clear already.
          The only info that is missing is the Mark of Tzeentch which could be a redeeming feature if the “maximum of 3++” rule is gone as this rule currently seems to interfere with their “legion rule” of getting +1 to invuls when targeted by a blessing and the rumored primaris of “+1 to invuls”.

          You can also compare them to grav cents as I made an error in my first post. the solreaper is only available on a full 10 man squad. So this is 300 points and therefor more points than 3 Grav cents with full loadout.

  • Moke

    These could all be really great… as long as they’re not too expensive. Although I’m a little confused as to why you’d go for the flamers over the boltguns. Great for hordes, sure, but Thousand Sons are *slow*. You’d need some serious transportation to get them into combat.

    • Nyyppä

      Teleports, psychics. Those help.

    • Christie Bryden

      and they cant fire in overwatch, last time I checked, so flamers probably not the way to go.

      • Lord Elpus

        If I remember correctly aren’t flamers D3 on overwatch?

        • MPSwift

          Slow and Purposeful means you can’t fire overwatch; one of the downsides to 30k Cataphractii Armour!

          • Lord Elpus

            I forgot about S&P!

          • Christie Bryden

            yep but means that soulreaper cannon can be fired while moving.

          • Charon

            Which does not matter as it is “assault” anyways.

          • Erber

            No it’s heavy 4…

      • Alpharius

        There is a relic that grants the unit overwatch, so the only “competitive” way to run Rubrics seems to be in a small flamer squad (those flamers are AP4, so pretty sweet), acting as a bodyguard for a forward character (can still LOS on 2+ on 3++ guys who may have a reroll for that save on 1s).

    • Malisteen

      Unfortunately, they *are* too expensive, as the points cost remains unchanged from their previous incarnation. The AP4 flamers cost extra on top of that, and the soulreaper cannon requires you to field a full unit of 10 before you can buy just one, so that’s never happening.

      • Moke

        Where have you seen the points are unchanged?

        • Malisteen

          People talking in B&C rumor threads. Could be malarky, but doesn’t sound like it.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    That Warpflame rule is dreadful. Will anyone use these weapons? Giving +1 FNP to your target is potentially disastrous. Definitely you want to take a whole unit of them to be sure of killing the target outright, or none.

    • MechBattler

      The rule might operate differently in this book.

      Besides, OVERKILL is the proper way to use Flame weapons regardless. If you’re not hosing them with enough fire to wipe them out, you’re doing it wrong.

      • Malisteen

        With no overwatch, slow walking speed, crippling weakness in melee, limited transport options, and prohibitively high points cost for the unit *before* you pay extra for weapon upgrades, I have a very hard time imagining those flamers are going to be worth taking at all, let alone en masse.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          agreed. They are more expensive than normal flamers and have this huge downside. Can’t wait till someone uses them on my Vraks Zombie Horde and gives them 3+ FNP…

          Only use would be if Sorcerers can easily get access to some power that allows them to teleport the Tsons up to a squad that they can then hit with 8 flame templates. I can’t see how they’ll ever get to use them otherwise.

          I guess could potentially be useful to dissuade anyone from charging the unit with them , if you don’t ever shoot them any other time except overwatch. But then imagine you are charged by a unit that already has FNP and you give them +1 to that for the assault (and rest of the game).

          A full unit of them will be very expensive too.

          • MechBattler

            So basically, find a way to operate them like a Flamer Sternguard squad in a drop pod. Deep Striking is the deadliest way to use flame weapons in ANY army anyway.

            (Sternguards and Crisis Suits approve this message.)

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            yep. If only Chaos had Drop Pods 🙁 A cheap Dreadclaw that didn’t eat its passengers would solve so many problems.

          • MechBattler

            There might be a teleport spell for sorcerers in the new powers.

          • Malisteen

            You’d have to attack an actual sorcerer to the squad to do that, so another couple hundred points, probably more than one if you want to actually guarantee access to one of the relevant movement powers.

          • MechBattler

            Dude. Aspiring Sorcerors are the squad leaders.
            Besides, ALL of the HQs are going to be Sorcerors anyway. It’s not like someone WASN’T already going to take them.

          • Malisteen

            Aspiring sorcerers only have access to the tzeentch lore. No movement powers there. There are potential options in a couple of the reprint astartes lores, but they’re not signature powers, so you’ve got to take multiple sorcerers to have a better than even chance of drawing them.

          • MechBattler

            Well, it’s not something to rely on. While it’d be really nice to have a teleporting squad with 2 or 3 warpflamers in it, if you roll the power you take advantage of it, if you don’t roll it, you don’t have it. It’s not like a WAACer trying to build a Screamerstar. If you don’t get the power, drop the Rubrics in a Rhino and roll around roasting things. I’ve seen it done to great effect with Plague Marines and double plasma in Rhinos.

            The can get Gate of Infinity in Sanctic, which most people probably don’t think of because it’s Sanctic and they’re Chaos Marines.

            Sanctic actually has some GOOD powers in it, so taking it isn’t the end of the world. Hammerhand buffs the Strength of the psyker’s unit. Sanctuary can buff their Invulnerable saves, you just have to be mindful of proximity with your own Daemons. Purge Soul is great for sniping specific models out of a unit, and with the Sorceror’s guaranteed LD10, he’s likely to succeed most of the time. Cleansing Flame meshes really well with Tzeentch’s Ignore Cover shooting powers, and is a great alternative for those people who whine about the Warpflame affect. And Vortex of Doom is a Destroyer blast.

            WOW. Now that I lay it all out here it doesn’t sound like a bad idea. Sure, the risk of Perils is much higher, but this is CHAOS. If you’re crazy enough to play Chaos in the first place, then a bit more risk isn’t really a stretch.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            lets hope so. Plenty of movement options in the repurposed Space Marine powers, but can the Aspiring Sorcerers cast them? Probably just restricted to some useless Bolt of W@nk power.

        • Alpharius

          They can get overwatch but you gotta invest more points into an already expensive squad.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        not really. A flamer or two in a squad gives some protection from long range charges, killing the lead model often leads to a charge failing. Likewise a single flamer can help hurt a unit that’s in cover before a charge.

        Plenty of units, like Cultists, can only take a single flamer or 1/10, and its still worth it, even without guaranteed overkill.

        But in this case overkill is a necessity.

        • Malisteen

          With no overwatch, I’m not sure how these flamers are going to protect from long range charges.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            you were talking about flamers in general terms and saying how overkill is the way to go, so my reply was also in general terms arguing that even a single flamer can be useful.

            Wasn’t specifically talking about Tsons, I know they can’t overwatch.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        disagree for the same reasons I already outlined elsewhere.

    • Shawn

      I think it would only be dreadful if you did something silly like attack a unit that already has FNP. +1 FNP to a model without it, I would hazard is just a 6+ FNP. And depending on the rules wording ( I didn’t see anything up above that grants FNP), may not even grant FNP. You can’t give a unit a +1, if it doesn’t have it already, yeah?

      • Karru

        It grants a 6+ FNP for a unit that does not have it.

        The Flamer isn’t exactly powerful, since it costs 7pts to equip one. 30pts for the flamer dude isn’t exactly the best loadout. I would prefer to use the Bolters since they have better range.

        • Malisteen

          Especially considering just how bad slow and purposeful is for flamers, the fact that thousand sons have to pay extra for theirs is just egregious.

      • MechBattler

        Warpflame in the Daemon codex either adds +1 to an existing FNP or gives the unit 6+ FNP if they don’t have it.
        HOWEVER, they only get it if they pass a Toughness test after suffering unsaved wounds from a Warpflame attack. If they fail the Toughness test, they suffer another D3 wounds with no armor or cover saves allowed.

        I don’t honestly understand the fuss over it at all. It’s not like Warpflame turns the unit into Plague Marines. The target unit has to survive the initial attack and then pass a test to get a lousy 6+ FNP that won’t do a darn thing to save them from a second attack wave.

        Just don’t do something tremendously stupid like use it on a Gargantuan Creature.
        Basically use it the same way you’d use a normal flamer – on targets that won’t survive more than one turn. It’ll be fine.

        • Alpharius

          They are slightly better than normal flamers in the sense of having AP4. So they will erase a lot more infantry like Skitarii or various Tau or Eldar dudes (does anyone even play stormtroopers anymore?).

          I agree the uproar over warpflame is exaggerated. If you target the models that normally don’t want to be hit by flamers (with an increased preferred target profile due to AP4), it should never be a problem. Most of those units will evaporate under such an assault, and since they tend to be T3, they only pass the toughness test 50% of the time.

          Of course, you don’t always have ideal targets available given their range, so sometimes you have to target sub-optimal units.

          Vs. say Space Marines, assuming a very conservative 5 flamers hitting only 3 models each, that’s 15 hits that result in 2-3 dead Marines, and a 66% chance they gain FNP. If they already had FNP, you literally would have been better off with lasguns. It’s pretty bad for a unit with their cost.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        Warpflame grants a 6+ FNP if you don’t have it if you pass a Toughness test at the end of a phase where you take casualties from a weapon with this rule. If you shoot at a unit two or three times you might give them 5 or even 4+ FNP! It also adds to FNP if you already have it.

    • petrow84

      Imagine Salamanders – I’m burning, and I like it more and more!

  • Dan Wilson

    Hmmmm… no screamers or flamers of tzeentch?

  • benn grimm

    Lovely art, lovely models, head scratchingly terrible rules, good (meaningbad) to see gw is back on usual form. Horrors are now the most broken troops choice in the game (that you can’t really buy as a regular unit; 5 boxes of silver tower per unit anyone?) rubrics are still over priced and not that great, their magical cyclone launcher has half the range of a standard one (because magic right?) psychic deathstars, that most fun of daemon travesties just got a whole new lease of life…do they even play this game? Of course not and I’m not sure why I’m still surprised tbh.

    • Malisteen

      All of this. These rules are terrible.

      • benn grimm

        I half expected OP rules for the 1ksons, to help them sell, wouldn’t be great, but it would at least make some kind of sense. The fact that they are basically unchanged minus some dubious war gear and formations, while the most powerful unit in this book isn’t a 1ksons unit, isn’t part of the release and isn’t even available in a unit box set… honestly, I can’t quite fathom it. Have they bought shares in eBay or something? It seems they have learned absolutely nothing about rules design since either the CSM codex or the Daemon one.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          yep, very disappointing.

          GW hatred of CSM continues. nothing to see here, move along.

          • benn grimm

            It’s just odd; they’re clearly going for a cool revamp, which is great, but when you crunch the numbers it just makes no sense. Its like, not only do they not play the game, but they also don’t sell rules or models for the people who play the game either, truly baffling.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            just have to hope the formations are utterly EPIC and give lots of special rules, or that the Tzeentch discipline spells synergise really well, and that the Aspiring Sorcerer has access to decent ones.

          • benn grimm

            Tbh my hopes for gaming in the setting of 41st millennium are placed solely in the direction of the re-release of a game called EPIC, op formations just wind me up, whatever the army. The 1ksons psyker powers do look pretty good though.

          • Alpharius

            Yes, Epic/Titans and Battle Fleet Gothic. Otherwise, these models will only be 30K fodder for me. At this point, even though I got tons of stuff that could be used in 40K, I would rather play AoS.

          • Malisteen

            With stuff like the rubicae – one of the worst units in 40k essentially reprinted as is with zero acknowledgement of any of the problems with it, and the horrors – 50 models needed for every 10 model unit, 130 in the doubling formation, it’s pretty clear that these rules didn’t just see GW’s typical half-hearted & insufficient internal play testing, but rather zero play testing what so ever. These rules went from the top of the writers head, to the page, to the store shelf with exactly zero extra consideration at any stage along the way.

            When fantasy releases started looking like that, it meant the game was on the chopping block and the guillotine was already falling. My guess is that all of these rules are going to be obsolete within a year with the announcement of “AoS: but 40k this time”.

          • Malisteen

            The formations do sound like they have some decent stuff in them, but the cost is all very high, so you’re basically shoe horned into running a pure Thousand Sons army if you want to deploy any of these units without shooting yourself in the foot (with an AP3 bolter).

            If you’re a generalist csm player thinking about adding just a unit or two of these cool new models to your army, like I was for my Black Legion, then you’re basically sol.

  • Anasa

    This is all sounding pretty good, apart from the funny-but-annoying new rules for Horrors. I was half expecting rubrics to get nothing but a “take 9 times 9 rubrics, get soul blaze” formation.

    • Malisteen

      from my understanding there is a take nine rubrics, get a bonus formation, but the bonus sounds actually reasonable, even if the points costs for the units in question are not.

      • Anasa

        They are expensive, but special weapons and actually useful powers for the sorc mean that the unit’s biggest problem (being too niche in its role) is gone, or alleviated at the least. Haven’t seen the new rules in detail, but I’m sure that formation bonuses and detachment specific rules will bring a major power boost for the Thousand Sons.

        • Alpharius

          I see them as a nice small bullet-sponge unit for characters. With potentially a 3++ save that rerolls 1s depending on formation and whether you cast a blessing on them, you can pass off a lot of wounds onto them only to have them bounce off their save. The lack of overwatch from Slow and Purposeful can be alleviated with one of the relics which I hope the sorcerer can take. Only truly a shame that you can’t take the soulreaper cannon until they are a full squad of 10, which is pretty lame.

  • MechBattler

    I’m hoping the Rubrics can double up on the Warpflamers like Plague Marines can double up on special weapons. Two AP4 flamers would be fun.

    • Malisteen

      the whole unit can take warpflamers. But remember, that makes them 30 points a model plus extra for the obligatory sorcerer. And they’re slow & purposeful, so those flamers don’t get to fire overwatch.

      • MechBattler

        Well 2 or 3 would probably be sufficient. I like spamming flamers on my Salamanders Sternguards, so I know a thing or two about flame weapons. Given that these are AP4, you wouldn’t need as many against non-power armor targets. Three is a good number..

  • BartTP

    Can Tzaagors be taken as a troop choice in any chaos army, or they need to be deployed in a formation only?

    • Dan Wilson

      Troop choice.

  • Sam Childs

    I’m quite surprised that no one has touched upon the exalted sorcerers in the comment section,(Information from Frontline gaming if you want the source) from the information I’ve seen they are bit more expensive points wise than the average sorcerer, but a bog standard psyker at ML 2 (which can be upgraded to ML 3 for 25 pts) with fearless an extra wound, WS and initiative and a chaotic equivalent to orbital bombardment with lance.These guys can be pretty scary if given the correct artefacts imagine not being able to deny a psychic power you absolutely don’t want going off, or perhaps he maybe armed with a non unwieldy AP2 Force, daemon weapon, still not scary enough? Okay then.How about seeing him alongside a 5 or 10 man unit of Rubric marines flying towards you because the sorcerer has an artefact that makes him and the unit he’s with become jump infantry. Expensive points wise yes, I won’t deny it, but I can see that their is some potential for them.

    • Zack Seiders

      Long as the tzeentch powers are updated so that 2/3 powers are not complete crap, I can see it in a fun/ narrative game at least. Otherwise I am waiting/ seeing/ hoping nurgle is next for the daemonkin treatment (wtb plague marine terminators please)

      • Sam Childs

        The tzeentch powers are much better in Wrath of Magnus, turning enemy models into spawns is back.

    • Alpharius

      Yes, I am contemplating a flying flamer rubric squad that soaks hits for a sorcerer.

  • Kaylum Dicks

    Given there are new blue and brimstone horrors in the codex, and no new box for them, I imagine it’s safe to say, we will see at least one more week of releases.

    I half expected to see rubric marines in the Devastator slot to be honest.

  • chaos0xomega

    So, like, are the updated daemon rules used by all daemon players, or only if playing the Pandaemoniad or whatever from this book? Gettin real sick of the patchwork nature of rules releases from GW, especially when it comes to Daemons.

  • Zack Seiders

    Okay good things I see from this. Thousand son’s getting expanded upon with more options than just the rubrics, a wide arsenal of ap 3 weaponry as well as being able to have plenty of warp charges sounds good on paper. Minor benefit of having free veterans of the long war is a good thing. Bad things, fact that like khorne daemonkin and its mark, the mark of tzeentch is not optional (fair enough due to the units actually benefiting from the mark… but it still is expensive). Also most of the ranged weaponry have ap 3 and good strength for mowing down infantry at close range, but NOTHING for long range ap 2 stuff “mandatory if one wants to survive the meta game”. That and if point value has not changed for basic troops, and weapon upgrades cost an arm and a leg… we are still going to have the same problems thousand sons have before hand.