Should We Fear Chaos Again? You Bet – FTN

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This image displays the chaosstar, which is a symbil for anti-cosmos or simply chaos

The Traitor Legion book just hit the shelves and this crew is crazy excited.  It is everything we wanted and more.

If the Black Legion had these rules before, it wouldn’t have taken then 13 previous tries to take over the Imperium. We also run down some gifts for the gamer who has everything in this show.

Yo yo,

We cram a lot into this show so I apologize in advance for the fast pace of it.  We kick the show off talking a little bit about pop culture before getting deep into the core of the Traitor Legion book.  The part right of the break is where we go into the ‘gifts’ for the gamer who has everything.

The Chaos Warband is pretty much the core of any of the Legion Cult mega formations.  It looks like a bit point sink but in reality it is incredibly flexible and when you lay the legion rules on top of it…. Man.. it’s actually good.  Who cares if you have to pay for your Rhinos?   That’s the biggest thing people seem to look for in a codex these days – What do they get for free?  In this dex you get tons of rules.   The rules feel pretty woven into the feel/theme of the army to boot.

GW has done a great job with this book.  They are really doing all they can to work off of existing codexes and live in the new reality of where we just get supplements and updates without having to need a new parent codex.

The Finishing Moves segment is sponsored by Gamemat.eu. Their Industrial Terrain set is great and they offer a product that is pre-painted. This, combined with their mats, is a great way to get playing with professional looking game boards fast.

The Finishing Moves segment is about painting Leather.  The reason we chose to focus here is that leather and ‘organic material’ should have a much different texture than the rest of the model in sci-fi ranges.  Everyone on the show has a take on this.

 

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FTN mostly focuses on Warhammer 40k, but again you will see in the first few episodes we take a severe deep dive into nerdom. These have been a blast to record and I hope they help pass the time for you.
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Credits:
Paul Murphy – Host
@warmaster_tpm

Panelist:
Justin Troop – troopsmash
Christopher Morgan – captain morgan
Adam Abramowicz – Beyond the Brush Studios
Andrew Whittaker

  • My only lament is their detachment not having any access to the big guns of IA13, without that I’m just not sure about them as anything but ob sec oblit spam

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      the Death Guard are the outright winners. Everyone gets a slight boost. Hard not to compare most of them to their loyalist counterparts and find them wanting somewhat though.

      • I wasn’t clear in my op, I was only referring to iron warriors

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          I think the Barrage thing is very silly. The only way it can be used is if you field a Fortress of Redemption. But its missiles are also Ordnance, so its redundant even there.

          I think it will be possible to field a detachment from IA13, it just won’t benefit from the army rules in most cases. It may be that a few special rules can be conferred though, I can imagine having fun with Relentless Death Guard characters joining IA13 artillery units for instance.

      • Randy Randalman

        No one plays Lascannons, so that question is irrelevant. The average guns nowadays are all S6 and S7.

        • Painjunky

          Who cares about lascannons?
          Grav is everywhere and will shred them in an instant.

          • Agent OfBolas

            They still have 2 wounds, inv 5+ and FNP from DG detachment.

            Not AS that bad.

          • Nyyppä

            2 little over 100p marine bike squad with 2 gravs and a combi vs. little under 300p oblits.

            Who wins?

          • Agent OfBolas

            well, we all know that SM book is a no brainer, but when compared to other, normal books, new options are great.

            For GravGuns, you have Magnus. They hits him on 6+, wounds on 4+ and he can go 2++ with reroll.

          • Nyyppä

            I don’t know what a “normal” book is. Pretty much everything after BA is broken compared to CSM…excluding DG which is well within the middle tier.

            If memory serves Magnus has to have a TS detachment. DG will not benefit from him at least directly.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Havoc autocannon squads do pretty well against dark eldar. I can see emperor’s children doing very well as well with an abundance of FNP 4+ and boosted stats.

          • Nyyppä

            You do realize that DE is very much behind even the mediocre codices?

          • BurpinforDayz

            Just out of interest what are the mediocre ones, I get quite confused between the top and middle one these days as the meta keeps changing.

          • Nyyppä

            Necrons and KDK would be good examples of that.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Where abouts would skitarii and cult mech fit in when not in the war con?

          • Nyyppä

            Middle I guess, maybe even top.

          • Dan Wilson

            Absolutely, I think a lot are underrating EC compared to death guard.

          • BurpinforDayz

            I think EC come off very well from the supplement , they have potential to play as well as DG however a lot of that relies on the randomness of the combat drugs. If they roll say +1 Toughness or Ballistic skill they’re golden however if they get +1 Initiative it won’t be looking too good.

          • BurpinforDayz

            The oblits probably if they’re in a DG detachment.

          • Nyyppä

            I believe you. If you could show us the math that led you to this conclusion it’d be great.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Well 9 grav shots kills about 1 obliterator out in the open if that 2/3 x 5/6 x 2/3 x 2/3 and then there’s the re rolling FNP rolls of but even then still about 2 wounds per 9 shots. However that’s assuming they shoot first and none have been killed AND the oblits aren’t in cover. If the oblits are in ruins they get a 4+ save as opposed to a 5++ however if the bikes are in the 18-24 inch range when they let loose the grav guns the obliterators will get stealth boosting it to a 3+/4+. If u take the 4+ 9 shots will take of 1.6667 wounds rounding down to about 1.3-4 with the re rolling FNPs of 1 so looking more like 1 wound rather than 2. With a 3+ its far more likely just to be 1 wound. If u multiply it by 2 (for 2 units of bikers) they will on average be killing 2 with no cover 1-2 with a 4+ and about 1 with a 3+ therefore. And that’s if they shoot first and the oblits go second in a firefight. Boltgun shots should do nothing at all to them but again they could (just highly unlikely) with a 2+ T5 and FNP re rolling 1s.

            Hope that helps u understand my thinking.

          • Nyyppä

            Sounds about right.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          Not true, I see plenty of lascannons.

        • Agent OfBolas

          I don’t think that DG 2x Lascannon Havocs in Rhino are a bad option … Rerentless is HUGE for them.

          Cheap and effective.

          • BurpinforDayz

            In my opinion the autocannon loadout works better.

      • Ryan C

        Tbh I think word bearers are probably the winners. DG are certainly good, but the potential for word bearers to summon spam is really high which imo offers them the biggest power/cheese potential. 4 DPs spamming horrors manifesting on a 3+ with a ton of cultists is really strong.

        • Charon

          You can do this with chaos daemons cheaper and more effective.
          I really hate the notion of “This army might be good because it can spam good units of another army”

          • Ryan C

            idk about that 4 DPs all manifesting on 3+ re-rolling failed rolls is pretty efficient summoning.

            Also its not like an army is spamming units from another army to break the rules. Word Bearers are DESIGNED to be a summoner army.

          • Charon

            From which army do you summon units? Right Codex: Chaos Daemons.

            I would somewhat agree if the summoner in question was a csm sorc and not a DP.
            But at the end of the day you basically play a tzeentch daemon army and not a csm army.

          • BurpinforDayz

            That is really not a good idea. To get 4 nurgle demon princes with wings and ML2 that’s gonna run u up 1000 points on the button plus the 200 minimum for the cultists in the CAD and that’s only for 8 mastery levels. Suppose u get 8+D6 averaging about 4 to be generous you have 12 dice per round (assuming none of the DPs drop). With this ur gonna want to spend 5 dice per WC3 power with the word bearers legion rules, potentially even 4 if u get a spell familiar for them being 1260 at this point then. This means u will get roughly 2 tops 3 summons at full strength each turn dropping probably to 1 -2 very quickly. Just out of interest what would you spend the remaining 590 points on cos atm it’s looking pretty lackluster.

          • Nyyppä

            Are they though? I mean, they are really bad at it. The librarius conclave does it better, almost without risk and for less dice too. CS does it better thanks having a daemon sorcerer. The eldar are better at it thanks to having the ability to partially ignore perils. The rest of the game does it almost as well as WB.

            I don’t see the design for summoning.

        • Agent OfBolas

          and I think DG wins.

          Prince with Black Mace, Lord on Bike with new Daemon Weapon, CSMs with Fearless, FNP and T5, Rerentless Havocs shoting with heavy weapons after movement.

          Add Renegade Knight, and it’s going to be very tough think to crack.

          Not to mention WE INSANE Berserkers Glaive … Perfect for DP.

          • Ryan C

            Renegade Knight isn’t an option if you want to run a Sons of Mortarian list.

            And I don’t disagree that DG aren’t good, I’d def say they are one of the best in the new book but I think their list design is too balanced to truly bring the cheese. They will be tough for sure but there are several builds possible with this book that can become very abusive in a competitive setting.

          • Agent OfBolas

            you can always ally RK 🙂 And you should, as it’s best CSM can field.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Renegade Knights are amazing crusader variant always works best for me it seems with all that firepower.

          • BurpinforDayz

            In the detachment for 235 points u get a demon prince with a 2+ jink, Feel no pain re rolling 1s that is T5 and wounds on a 2/3 up re rollable against most units (with the poison daemon weapon) at 6+D6 attacks at AP2 on the charge.

        • Nyyppä

          Out of curiosity, what would be a fluffy WB list that falls in to that “winner” category?

          • Ryan C

            Off hand w/o designing a list I’d do something like

            4 DP, all level 3, with wings, MoN, rocking familiars leading a Chaos Warband then a single spawn for Aux.

            One of the DPs would be warlord, and ideally roll the +1 level. The lord, would of course, take The Scripts of Erebus so that he can help supercharge that first psychic phase and spam as many Daemons (likely Horrors) as possible.

            Table strategy would be something like spam as many Daemons to disrupt your enemy as possible while your obsec marines run around laying down cover fire and scooping up objectives. Most armies would be pretty overwhelmed by it.

          • Nyyppä

            Roger that. I guess we have a different idea of what “fluffy” means.

          • Ryan C

            I wouldn’t consider that necessarily unfluffy. The word bearers characteristically summon daemons. The way I’d see it in the story would be that before the battle the sorcerers channeled a ritual to bring the DP’s in from the warp but the ritual killed them and now the DPs have taken over the army for their own nefarious goals.

            You could even work into “fluff” for your army that the Army’s Dark Apostle was the sacrifice that the sorcerers used to bring fourth the 4 Daemons or that the Dark Apostle tried to control the Daemons and paid a terrible price when he failed.

            OR you could mandate that the lead “walord” DP WAS the Dark Apostle who was raised to Daemon Hood via the Ritual and thus your lead DP is modelled to look like this monstrous evil Daemon Priest.

            Imo it fits quite easily into the fluff of the Legion.

          • Nyyppä

            If it works for you it works for you. I don’t see it though. To me itt sounds a lot like those nid lists with mucolids and flyrants. In a narrative singular game, sure. Continuously, not so much.

          • Ryan C

            Ha, I won’t be playing Word Bearers, its more just me being conceptual in mind. I think the list would be on the north side of a bit cheesy so not fun for opponents. Plus I don’t have the bank to buy 300+ horror models. 😉

            I was more pointing out that DG didn’t represent the most powerful potential lists possible within the supplement.

            DG fall under the category of lots of great options to be viable and strong but not broken. Personally, il be playing them. (mostly because I’ve had a DG army for 15 years now 😉 )

          • Nyyppä

            I just can’t make myself to play such a list. The justification for such a list just is not there in my mind unless there are special circumstances.

            It’s not even broken imo. 2-4 units of daemons drop each turn and nothing else happens. Unless they are the new horrors any army can just delete them. The double-D Gladius does not even have to do that, dropping a pod to each objective is an almost automatic win.

            DG is a good and fluffy choice, something CSM has not seen in a long while. I’m glad you like it.

          • Ryan C

            I think it would likely be 4+ Daemon drops per turn.

            first turn you would get 12 + 2D6 Dice summoning on a 3+ with reroll failed casts.

            Next turn if you cast 4 units of horrors you are looking at more like 16 + D6 dice.

            Can easily pull off 4 casts with both of those unless you get quite unlucky.

            And remember that force isn’t just 4 DPs. You can get away with as cheap as 260pts per DP. in 1850 that leaves you with 810pts to spend on obsec stuff with firepower in the chaos warband.

          • Nyyppä

            That is a valid point.

          • BurpinforDayz

            That’s a lot of points.

      • MarcoT

        Deepstriking 6 units of 3 Oblits ensures very few lascannons or gravcannons remain in the first place. Seems like a powerful army to me.

        • Nyyppä

          Doing that repeatedly with no other options. Sounds like fun….

          • MarcoT

            I was just commenting on how ‘bad’ this was supposed to be. Fun is a completely different starting point.

          • Nyyppä

            Is it not bad if it’s boring and repetitive?

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          T5 from MoN also protects a lot from small arms fire as well as from instant death. I guess it will require some playtesting to see how it pans out.

          • Zack Seiders

            your basic troops are now cheaper plague marines. Take away poison weapons and blight grenades and this is what you get. IT is just now EVERYONE gets the benefits of a plague marine. (only cult troop that was worth taking.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I am talking about Iron Warriors. Their troops just get 6+FNP and Stubborn, assuming you take the formation. So more like inferior Iron Hands than cheap Plague Marines.

          • Zack Seiders

            Sorry for misunderstanding.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            iz ok 🙂

    • Koonitz

      Welcome to everyone else that has formations. GW formations almost never include Forge World models.

      My Marines have had to leave their Contemptor Mortis, Deredeo, Relic Predator and Storm Eagle behind on several engagements because of this.

      Time you got to feel the same pain.

      • Sorry the post was unclear, I wasn’t referring specifically to Iron Warriors, who get reroll barrage & ordinance in their detachment, yet have no barrage weapons and only 2 ordinance

        • Vladamyr

          if you take a normal FOC you can still take FW stuff.

          I feel your pain though as a NL Player, to take my Raptors to their full ability i have to take the formation, but to bring any of my armor I have to take a normal CAD on top of that.

          • Of course, it’s just that the main benefit of the formation is useless because it only buffs vindicators (defilers just suck either way)

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I often field a Vengeance Weapons Battery and with its BS2 it will really benefit from the reroll, as will the vindicators, though having to pay a Warpsmith tax just to access vehicles is dumb and rather counteracts the bonus. Mind you the cover reducing effect of the Warpsmith is under-rated particularly combined with something like a Vindie that almost auto wounds and penetrates armour.

            I think the main benefit is actually the Stubborn on everything and Fearless if you take some sort of defence line.

          • Right, I forgot the fortifications…which, meh, but at least it is something

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            its definitely a fluffy and effective addition. I love my VWBs!

          • Nyyppä

            VWB?

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Vengeance Weapon Battery.

          • Nyyppä

            Roger that.

          • Mr.Gold

            add in some armoured containers – rerolling ones to hit is probably not a bad thing for Iron Warriors (for only 40pts)

          • Blight

            Don’t forget the humble havoc launcher. I know everyone does but it’s actually a pretty mean gun to put on a rhino.

          • Not ordinance or barrage though

          • Blight

            So it is

          • Nope, just Heavy and Blast, it is twin linked already though

          • Aezeal

            Warpsmiths are fluffy for them so either don’t play them or accept warpsmiths.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Oooh Mr Grumpy….

            I know Warpsmiths are fluffy, and I always field at least one if I am playing IW, but having to field a warpsmith to access vehicles, a warpsmith to access Daemon Engines, and another or several to get your Oblits, you could end up spending 1/3rd of your armies points on them and having some crazy number of them which is ridiculous.

          • Aezeal

            No other way to play them? Seems odd.. you don’t have to use formations right?

          • Nyyppä

            The idea of this book seems to be to add some flavor and even the odds for the CSM players. Dropping the beneficial rules from the mix leaves the just the added flavor which leads to CSM automatically losing again. How is that a solution?

          • Aezeal

            I didn’t mention solutions 😀
            Solutions are playing on of the really buffed CSM faction.. or play Eldar 😀
            CSM is now middle of the road and that is decent enough :D.

          • Nyyppä

            Legions other than DG are still bottom tier. One legion being 2nd tier is hardly the same as CSM being 2nd tier. On top of that there are no real options in the ally department.

          • Aezeal

            Well I wouldn’t know.. but I’ve heard other call at least 2-3 of them having a decent powerlevel.. and while WB are generally said to be not much stronger in this book others like their summoning potential and see them as decent using that (which isn’t directly unfluffy).

          • Nyyppä

            One could argue that BL is ok too, that is true.

            The much praised summoning potential that WB has sums up to exactly nothing thanks to the summoners getting perils on any doubles and having to use 5 or 6 dice to get that summoning done reliably. That means that in all likelyhood the summoner lasts for 2 attempts and then dies…on average. Considering that the l3 sorcerer is 110p base and the summonable stuff is not exactly awesome since they are considers to be deep striking on deployment it’s not really a bargain. CS is actually better than WB at this thing.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Half of the Iron Warriors benefits only apply to the units in their special decurion (formation of formations). So yes, you could use a CAD but you wouldn’t get those benefits.

          • Aezeal

            So you can use them even without a warpsmith. For a bonus you pay warpsmith tax.. for no bonus you don’t.. seems like you have a choice 😀

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Great choice- as sh1t as they used to be or slightly better with sh1t tax unit. Cool.

          • Aezeal

            Didn’t say it was cool either.

          • Nyyppä

            How many marine armies have to pay 100p for nothing just to have access to basic gear?

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            yep, and a lot of the rules even within the new book can only be accessed through a CAD, such as the Ob Sec Obliterators. Makes for a complex game where some bits of your army have some special rules in common but not others.

          • Painjunky

            This is true. Its a pain working out which of my NL get what special rules.
            A lot of needless complexity.

          • Painjunky

            Agree with you on the NL.
            They are still very average.
            The formations really hold them back.
            If you want any obsec (and you do) and their full traitor legions rules you have to take the warband with all the taxes. The points run out very quickly.
            All the legions apart from DG are bottom tier.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Only trouble there is that the bonus only applies to models in the Grand Company. Purge kind of makes up for the loss, but good luck maxing out on Achilles and Typhons at Tournament points limits.

          • Nyyppä

            Then you miss out on most of the benefits of being IW. That is not a viable solution.

    • Malisteen

      Eh, two oblits and a warpsmith isn’t that much of a tax to unlock any IA13 units you want to take in a CAD on the side.

      • Right, my point is actually that the formation is useless, IW are decent in a CAD

  • Mr.Gold

    I have just got my copy of the TL book, I was just flicking through the
    book, and I noticed that there are no/very few restrictions on which HQ choices (DP/Lord/Sorcerer etc.) can take the
    relics (i.e. you still have to be able to select them from the armoury)
    so you can give a Demon Prince of Night Lords the Stormbolt Plate for
    20pts for a 2+ Armour Save as well as +1 to cover, if you also gave him
    wings (and due to VoTLW granting Stealth) you can get a 2+ cover save –
    just hope and pray for the Warlord Trait – One with Shadows (reroll
    failed cover saves) for a 2+ rerollable save… for example. or you
    could give him the Berserker Glaive (World Eaters) for S8, FNP and IWND
    and 5+D6 Attacks.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      a lot of the relic weapons are excellent on a DP, to get their native AP2 and then the relic bonuses on top.

      • jonathon

        Daemon Prince of Khorne with the berserker glaive should wreck an Imperial Knight in combat unless it rolls a 1 on the daemon weapon’s # of attacks – hitting on 3’s with a reroll, with 6+D6 attacks glancing on 4’s is pretty effective

        • Nyyppä

          On average the knight survives and even one hit from it is enough to kill the prince.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          You do know that Knights explode when they die? Better to focus fire them in your opening turns so that they disrupt your enemy’s line by taking out their allies in the blast.

          • jonathon

            What effective long range shooting are you bringing in a chaos army that can take a knight out in one turn? Last anyone havoc? Predators? I’ve never seen it…

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Six Chosen in a Dreadclaw with Meltas and your choice of Plasma Pistol and Fist or a Combi-melta can do the job and max out your chances at multi-HP hits. Or take Huron/Ahriman and cheat your way into a prime shooting position with one of your shootier units. Long-range is kind of hard with codex-native units, as at best, you can grab 4 Lascannon for ~155 points. Now, FW has plenty of units suited to Knight-hunting, and while just about none of them are viable in these formations, you can still use them in FOCs.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            its a nice idea, but if they bubblewrap their Knight or deploy it in a corner you won’t be able to do it. Besides you’ve paid 2/3rds the cost of a Knight for that squad…

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Or take another Knight. Or drown it in Plaguebearers.

          • Malisteen

            The dreadclaw lacks scatter mitigation, so you won’t be able to land close enough to use those meltas without risking an incredibly damaging mishap. Plus, six meltagun shots won’t reliably down a knight. And because dreadclaws and chosen are both incredibly expensive units, you’ll be paying more than the khorne prince anyway. Plus, meltaguns are such short range that if you drop a knight with them, the unit will probably be caught in the blast anyway, and without invulnerable saves, they’re more likely to get wiped out by it than the prince is.

            Not that a khorne prince can survive to see melee, anyway. I’m just saying, putting special weapon chosen in a dreadclaw and pretending like they’re vanguard vets *which they are not* is a worse option, not a better one.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            You can’t disembark the turn it comes into play anyway, so there’s not really a point to dropping close, unless they do bubblewrap, in which case, those auto-hits can thin the herd a bit.

            You all just need to come to terms with the fact that CSMs will never be at the same level as the top-tier lists, that competitive play is a waste of time with that codex, and that consistently whining about it here, rather than a place GW actually watches, does nothing to get them to fix the codex.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        And negating Unwieldy.

    • Geronimo32509

      I plan on running a Tzeentch Daemon Prince for my Iron Warriors. Put the Exoskeleton on him and he has a 2+ re-rollable save with IWND.

      • rtheom

        But then you cannot run them as Iron Warriors since you cannot field models with marks or give marks to models and still use the Iron Warrior setup and therefore could not give him the Exoskeleton.

        • Alexis Thouin Bourdeau

          DP don’t have marks. They have Daemon of X rule. So until a FAQ change that for ”mark or daemon of X”, DP are legit.

          • jonathon

            I’m sure DP’s will always be allowed, hence the exclusion of “Daemons of X” from the restrictions on the undivided legions. DP’s are still explicitly available through the favoured of chaos formation and through the Lords of the Legion HQ options.

          • rtheom

            Fair enough. I had always thought that “Daemon of” meant that that it had the associated “Mark” built in, but you are correct. It also saddens me that I now see that you MUST upgrade a DP to be a “Daemon of” and can’t just have an undivided DP.

            But Tzeentchian IW DPs it is for days then!

          • Malisteen

            Yes. Very effective option, and it’s nice to see non-nurgle princes working out, though frankly I feel leery about it since imo 2+ re-rollables are terrible for the game.

          • rtheom

            Agreed, but at least it’s not invul. Grav guns will happily make a TZ IW DP look like a silly paper doll. 🙁

    • Djbz

      I like the idea of the blade of the hydra on a daemon prince.
      He’d have the potential to just carve through squads…

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Sicarian, Blastmaster, or Sonic Blaster would still make short work of it, among other things. See also: Tau.

  • Djbz

    I like the many potential shennanigans the Alpha legion can do.
    Faceless commander has got to be the coolest warlord trait ever.
    (Even with the question of how non-independant characters switching works exactly)

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Eww, coherency issues, ew.

      • Djbz

        Yes, that exactly.
        My group’s fine with assuming they swap places entirely (as in they become part of the squad they swapped into) but I don’t imagine tournament types being so lenient

  • Nyyppä

    Meh. There are couple of annoying rules from the opponent’s point of view. DG cetting essentially plaque marines a lot cheaper now, AL having an endless tide of ever increasing number of cultists, BL has pseudo alpha strike.
    Then the actual fun starts and regular CSM redundancy kicks in. TS give everyone FNP but themselves, NL has fear that does nothing in this game, IW has cool rules for weapons they have no access to, WB gets to use sorcerers as suicide units in hopes of getting something out of those 2 summonings before they die in perils,
    EC and WE are better at what they do but still lack the tools to do what they are supposed to.

    No need to feat CSM. They are better, just not anywhere near good enough.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Your IW criticism demonstrates a lack of familiarity with the Formations a Grand Company can field. Both the Fist of the Gods and the Helforged Warpack have the option to take models with Ordnance weapons.

      As far as I can tell, Warpflame is a Daemon of Tzeentch thing only now.

      You really should consider how this book interacts with other options for CSM. You might even find a decent work around. Even if it isn’t top-tier, there’s bound to be something enjoyable to play.

      • Nyyppä

        I would play WB if I played CSM. What’s the work around?

        • Damien Coté

          Daemon princes with summoning

          • Nyyppä

            That plural right there, that’s a direct violation of the fluff. I have no interest in playing unbound summon machine.

            What’s a fluffy WB army that utilizes the actual benefits of the legion and does not inherently die on it’s own impossibility?

          • Damien Coté

            It isn’t unbound? You are allowed to take one or two in a CAD. You didn’t specify your strict restrictions such as not taking any daemon Princes so how was I supposed o know? I just gave you an answer based on your request, there really was no reason to jump down my throat.

            Also I love the impossible restrictions people like to place on their armies to make them seem weak just so it doesn’t work, all in the name of “fluffy”. What is so unfluffy about a demagogue that has been so successful that he ascended to daemonhood in the legion? Are you going to tell me that having one daemon Prince for summoning is unfluffy in a word bearers army? I think you need to become a bit more creative with your fluff mate…

          • Nyyppä

            One or two does not cut it. They cost as much as a WK and summon roughly 100p worth of chaff per turn. You need 5 just to get 3 summons off per turn. All the while the 1500-1850p of the opponents army massacres what you have summoned every turn.

            What made you think I would not accept DPs? I did not say that I would not take any DPs. I said I would not take multiple DPs. One is fine, it’s just not a solution to the problem thanks to being weak and expensive at the same time.

            My personal restrictions for my armies would be them having to look like armies, not hero spams. I have no qualms with taking an apostle and 210 cultists in a list because that’s fluffy. I will not take min troops to spam heroes because that can not be justified narratively.

          • Damien Coté

            I have one daemon prince in my 1850 point Chaos daemons and Chaos Marines double CAD (It’s 100% slaanesh, so a bit light on the warp dice). That prince flying around summoning can usually get 4 units out per game. My core of the army is daemonettes, so it is not really hero spam (although I do have Heralds, but come one that greater loci is just too great to pass up). And that Daemon prince is summoning on 4+. Your’s would be on 3+

            The place to complain about the WB DP is that you have to take a mandatory power from your God’s book, which blows. But you can easily take a level 3 prince with wings and Nurgle, jink and summon, AND your 210 cultists and apostle. Wraith knight can’t deal with that. Hits the DP on 6’s or horribly obliterates 4 cultists per turn.

            See it is dooable, just have to think outside the box.

          • Nyyppä

            4 units in a game is cool and all, but it’s not enough. It has to be 4+ per turn. We are talking about a legion with zero viable units out of the codex other than that summoner DP. The DP has to compensate the the lack of other viable options.

            Those cultists fall in droves to everything in codex eldar, SM variations and tau…and to everything else in the game really. Those cultists, the apostle and the DP are together roughly 1300p and it’s just not fair to assume that that WK is there alone.

            As a side note that cultist spam takes forever to deploy and move. While fluffy and cool it’s pretty much the opposite of doable if there is any sort of time restraint included.

          • Damien Coté

            Oh I am sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by a “Fluffy” list; by fluffy you meant “easy win” button. I mean why bother playing if you’re only going to sit here and have hypothetical fights where instead of coming up with counters to the enemy, you only focus on how much your army sucks.

            Yes, CSM have a long way to go before they are OP. I don’t want them to be OP. But there are several things you can do to mitigate threats with what you have. If you want to go cult spam, then you have to throw something at your enemy that makes them ignore your cultists while your cultists are grabbing objectives. There are tons of ways to do this.

            Maulerfiends, DP with black mace, Heldrakes, Spawn. If you want to stick with fluffy, WB should be taking daemon allies, as that is what they do. So take a Slaanesh Soul Grinder or two to run alongside your cults and let your enemy get close to them and see how that goes.

            This generation of 40k players bugs me so much because they are all about the auto win armies. I get a kick out of bringing armies that are so out there in left field and manage to win my local tournaments all the time.

            This one guy was dominating because he had grav spam Gladus. I laughed when he was wounding my daemonettes on 6+. Warp spider spam? I hugged the objectives in cover (Although I deep struck some meltas and got lucky autoblicking his Farseer).

            You just have to think outside the box man. You don’t need units to last the entire game; just need them to last long enough for your cultists to rack up the objective points. That’s how chaos plays; everyone is just a pawn in the great game.

            But I am done with this conversation, because I know you’re just going to continue to b1tcch and complain, even though they FINALLY gave us legion rules. I already know that nothing short of becoming OP Auto-win will not satisfy you.

          • Nyyppä

            Nope. What I meant was fluffy. Automatically losing, which is what you suggested, is not fluffy and automatically winning is just as unfluffy as automatically losing.
            It’s not my army. It would be if deploying WB in any game was worth it. Being worth it would again mean that it’s not an automatic win or automatic loss.

            I agree that CSM are not OP. Then again, I have not seen anyone demanding that from the faction either. It looks like people just want a roughly level battle field instead of starting from a bottom of a hill with walls that are impossible to climb.

            Assuming the Lost and the Damned cultist spam which is 900p(?) for 6 units + the tax apostle 110p and the DP which is 300ish points, there’s around 200p to 550p left that can be used. CSM does not have “distraction carnifexes” currently or at least those are unknown to me. Do you have a suggestion for a CSM unit that both draws fire for couple of turns and preferably survives to do some actual damage to the opponent before dying?

            The DP just can not land ever thanks to being easier to kill than anything that expensive should ever be and besides it’s the daemon dispenser anyway. One drake in it’s present stiff necked form does not do much since it has targets for maybe every other turn and 2 can not fit in to the 200p. One mauler is not enough and again it’s too expensive to get 2 in 200p especiakky since there is the warpsmith tax is there too. Grinders have the same problem on top of having the need for 2 troop units and a herald tax. With the 500p surplus these are doable and might even work, though I honestly do not think that a naked herald, couple of troop daemon min squads and the grinders do anything more that what the grinders alone do.

            The problem is not the present generation of 40k players who only want a fighting chance in a game. The problem is GW practically forcing people with cheese filled codices to use the worst cheese in there because the rest of the codex is usually just amazingly weak in comparison. Marines are possibly the best example of this with fluffy and usually broken detachments that produce the lists people want to play (with or without bonuses) and that are impossible to do in a cad. It’s just dumb to play units that you do not want to play if there is a way to play the ones that you want to play. It’s GWs fault that these formations also result to many unreasonably one sided games.

            On top of that easier information sharing has resulted to better knowledge in both the good and the bad aspects of the game.

            I started with RT so calling me “this generation player” would mean that the old school guard are “this generation players”.

            I’m sorry that you see different opinions and questions about the validity of some of your ideas as unreasonable complaints. The thing is that those points I brought up are still very valid. Simply deploying and winning/getting beaten by the opponent does not make this game worth it if the actual act of playing the game has no impact on who wind and who loses. This is why I ask questions and point out problems so that if there are things that do not work they can be fixed or discarded in favor of better tactics. My personal twist to this is just that I will not spam units that can not be spammed without molesting the fluff. Too bad if this is too much for you.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Raw, you can get 4 Obsec Pods that buff your reserves and, never roll to hit, deploy in waves, and can Jink and can only be Skyfired for 400 points, and an average out of pocket cost of $120-140. And if they get hit, you can feed them Cultists.

            BTW: your track record on this topic leads me to believe that you just don’t want to be optimistic about anything GW does, especially when that thing is not fixing the rules set.

          • Nyyppä

            Pods that cost almost almost 3 times as much as marine pods and have less value.

            GSC was cool. Eldar are nice and SM/DA are too though both have too many auto take units/formations. DG is nice for casual gaming.
            That being said, as a whole, most GW products that have rules in them are from bad to worse. Traitor Legions was a great opportunity to make CSM worth it and while it’s a partial success it’s still leaving most legions to the level that does not warrant deploying the models in a game. DG and BL are great for casual gaming. The others fall short of that too.

            And no, I don’t sugar coat things. If GW fails there is no reason to claim otherwise.

      • Nyyppä

        As an added note, none of the available options are viable. You need 5 tanks just to get something theoretically useful out of the vindis and defilers are useless. All of the units IW would actually have success with are in IA13 and they have no access to those with the formations.

        I’m also pretty sure that all of the TS weaponry have the warpflame rule.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          Neither Helforged Warpack nor FotG are max out and get more awesome Formations, so your point?

          Nothing I’ve read suggests that they have Warpflame, but I can check.

          • Nyyppä

            Helforged has an expensive and useless tax unit and defilers are still roughly 30% too expensive. To get anything out of FotG you need to take tank squadrons which all fill just one mandatory slot…which means 3 windis to have the super shot and 2 predators on top of that useless warpsmith.

            I might be wrong about the warpflame.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            For being a “fluff bunny,” you seem awfully committed to min-maxing your list.

          • Nyyppä

            Fluffy =/= dumb. I care if I have a chance to win even if winning itself is pretty meaningless to me.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            It’s just the ridiculously costed (IMHO) warpflame weapons, which are all template weapons, and only come 1 per 5 in a squad. The Heavy is really the only one worth taking, as exploding AP 3 Wall of Death is handy in this meta. Soulreaper Cannon and Inferno Bolters are better on the whole, imho. Fixing the Tzeentch Discipline really takes a lot of the suck out of fielding 1K Sons.

          • Nyyppä

            True that.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        no barrage weapons though (or to be precise only the missiles from the Fortress of Redemption, which are also Ordnance anyhow), which shows how well Gw think their rules through!

  • ZeeLobby

    Hard for me to care about much these days with 8th around the corner.

    • Nyyppä

      That in addition to the present situation in the game…yeah.

      • ZeeLobby

        Too true. No point in shoveling money down the money hole til we know where the game is actually going. My first reaction to the End Times was to hold off, which luckily I did. Didn’t receive a real game system til a year later.

        • Nyyppä

          True. While I doubt that they will be as stupid this time around as to drop the points and not give the players some other systen to at least try to balance the game….well, unless they totally reinvent their design philosophy to one that aims to balance the game instead of this “EHRMAGERD DOODZ, LOOK AT THIS IDEA I HAD, LETS PRINT IT WITHOUT TESTING” thing they have been up to since forever the game continues to be unplayable.

          I hope they fix it. The setting and the minis are awesome. It’s a shame that the quality of the game is directly opposite of that.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I mean they have the resources to make it as close to a perfect game as possible. Like you said their models and background are already in a great place. I dunno. Maybe it’s because I’ve gotten older, but now I just expect a game I spend 3+ hours playing once a week if I’m lucky to have some greater tactical depth and skill. I know they’ve always been about the garage playstyle, I just think their lack of effort is just that much more obvious now that other systems exist which are equally or less complex, but more tactically stimulating, and honestly just more fun.

            Things don’t have to be perfect, I just don’t want faction choice to instantly determine success on the battlefield. Or to have to spend an hour before that 3+ hour game coming up with a verbal contract defining the game I’m about to play.

          • Nyyppä

            That’s pretty much the sum of it though I still think an hour of pre game talk is not even remotely enough.

        • Ed Butlar

          How about to have fun?

          • Nyyppä

            Is it fun to win or lose just by choosing a faction you want to play?

          • ZeeLobby

            No, haha, and most “for fun” players I know who are just looking to get started with wargame immediately shy away from 40K when you explain the discrepancy between factions. When they guy loves Orks, and then gets tabled 2/3 times in a row by turn 2, it can be disheartening.

          • Nyyppä

            It’s would actually be awesome if the best of the best 40k gamers went to GW to teach them things about the game. You know, wreck face on the table up until they actually see what they did wrong and are willing to fix it.

          • ZeeLobby

            It can be a difficult concept to grasp (no joking), but sometimes peoples’ definition of fun can be different. While some might like breaking open some bears and slinging dice regardless of outcome, I have more fun playing a close game and tactically overcoming my opponent. When simple faction choice dictates that outcome, the win/loss of a close game has less and less to do with how I played it. That is just not fun for me.

          • Ed Butlar

            I guess it depends on who you are playing, a good game is when the other person works with you to build a balanced battle. I’v never played one but I would imagine tournaments are pretty savage, I would imagine a game this size would be very difficult to balance perfectly and erase any chance of abuse.

          • ZeeLobby

            Tournaments are a blast. And most if the people are genuinely nice and it’s a great time. Sure there’s some tryhards, but I’ve seen “funny fun” playing tryhards before (who are honestly the nastiest people to play with, because usually if they lose they complain). Other games of similar size, and both greater and less complexity, are pretty close to balanced conpetitively. You’ll never have perfect balance, but you’ll get close enough to where you win with the weakest factions through skill of play. It just requires a company that actively participated in such events. They provide competitive guidelines, and then rebalance based on power level. This is VERY common in most other wargames. It’s just something GW doesn’t actively try to do.

            Let’s put it this way. I don’t sit down to play monopoly and ask my opponents to start with $200 less because my player piece is the iron. I shouldn’t have to do the same with any game worth its money.

  • I think the book added some flavor to CSM. However, to “fear” them would require them having some OP rules that put them on par with the eldar and space marine stuff running amuk, and I would definitely disagree with that.

    Some fun stuff? Yes surely there is some fun stuff, I’m doing thousand sons in our campaign starting in a couple weeks. Fearsome? Hardly.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      Death guard seem potentially fearsome, particularly Toughness manipulation with Grotti and their formation, spells etc. Even without that a Nurgle footslogging army will be very tough to beat.

      • They are pretty strong but I wouldn’t say death guard are at the level of OP madness that we see in tournament halls.

  • Malisteen

    I wouldn’t fear what Chaos Marines *are* just yet. Death guard might give you trouble, but while the CSM player will have a lot more fun with these rules than before them, they’re still not that much more of a threat.

    No, what you should fear is what the Chaos Marines *may yet become*. These rules are very reminiscent to the legion rules presented in the Adeptus Astartes articles back in 3rd edition, and those articles were a build up to the most powerful and flexible codex chaos marines have ever seen. If these sub lists are building up to something like it…

    well… in a game of knight titans, scatterbikes, wraithknights, grav spam, and the like, it might not even matter if we saw a return of the 3.5 CSM codex, but still, I’m very curious to see what the next CSM codex looks like.

    • Nyyppä

      One must remember that the next codex will be after the edition changes and at that point this all will be very much obsolete. It does not have to be a huge rule reboot to make none of the present material compatible with it. Just dropping fearless and hatred makes anything CSM with wounds incompatible with the new edition.

      • Malisteen

        The Index Astartes legion rules also became obsolete when the 3.5 codex was released only a few months later. My point is not that these rules will become more powerful with a new codex, but rather that they represent a change in attitude and design philosophy away from what we saw in the 3.0, 4e, and 6e codex, and towards what we saw in the 3.5 codex.

        That change in direction may not be carried forward into the next chaos book the way that the IA direction was carried forward into the 3.5 rules, but if it is, then Chaos Marines may very much be a force to fear in 8th edition, in a way that they aren’t now, even with this supplement.

        • Nyyppä

          Hope so. To be fair the BRB is the biggest hindrance to this supplement. The USRs and conjuring working like they do are the problem for most legions.

          • Malisteen

            The problem for most legions is bad rules, bad profiles, bad points costs, bad prices for unit upgrades, lack of viable delivery options, relying on plasma guns and autocannons in a game of D-scythes and grav cannons, relying on AV12 walkers in a game of super heavies and gargantuan creatures, relying on deep strike without functional scatter mitigation, relying on melee infantry without access to tolerable assault transports, ICs being locked into challenges when all their functional dueling kit is divided into mutually exclusive mark and legion lists so no matter how you build them they’re only ever at most 2/3rds of a viable duelist IC.

            In short, there are a *ton* of problems with CSM armies that a new codex could fix without touching the BRB. Problems that a BRB change without a ground-up codex revamp won’t have any chance of fixing.

            Not to complain – I’m pretty happy with what we got in the TL supplement and have more confidence in the direction GW is taking with this faction than I have had in the past 15 years, I’m just saying that I disagree with the notion that it’s the BRB, and not the faction rules, that are to blame for the rut CSMs have been in for the past decade plus.

          • Nyyppä

            I did not mean to claim that CSM problems are problems in BRB. My point was that many of the problems in the TL are because the USR and cunjuring are what they are. The codex is a whole can of worms by itself. I agree fully with what you said.

  • Brett Thompson

    I hate to look at a cake and lament the lack of a cherry on top, but does it seem odd to anyone else that the Grand Detachments for a couple legions don’t reflect the Force Org swaps in their Core choices? For example, why aren’t Terminator Annihilation forces Core for Black Legion? Cult of Destruction Core for Iron Warriors? It seems like they just don’t carry over as well as they should.

    • Nyyppä

      Well, it’s been well established that this book is a result of lazy patch work.

      At least they tried. Sadly the community is not in favor of the present day upbringing culture where you get prizes just for participation so GW will not be praised by the majority of CSM players for this release.