40K: 8th Edition – Some Things We Know For Sure

fists-imperial-standard-space-marines

Through the cloud of rumors, wish-lists and speculation, there are some things we can be sure to see when it comes to 8th edition.

Just a heads up; I am not going to be awfully specific here. ” Well then, Dan, aren’t you just speculating as well?”  Not so fast, sparky.  I am SURE of what I speak.  That’s not speculation…well, it kind of is.  But hey, nobody takes this game all that seriously anyway, right?

jokerSRSLY?

Take These To The Bank

Most Folks Will Enjoy 8th Edition:  So many players are hoping for some streamlining of the 30 minute game turn, that any improvement will be welcomed.  This same group is mostly comprised of folks who have also played through at least 3-4 editions of 40K, and have persevered through the inevitable wave of change each new edition has brought.

The players who willingly throw down in 8th edition are those who find a way, and no matter what we are given, to make the best of it and carry on with our hobby/gaming lives.  There will always be things we don’t like about any game we play; we just enjoy 40K too much to let the annoying bits drive us away.

sure3

Some Folks Will Despise 8th Edition:  A wave of despair will hit the Interwebs within hours of 8th Edtion hitting the shelves.  Why?  Because there are always those for whom change is anathema.  Doesn’t matter what the change is.  It is change, and by God, it can’t be as good as what we already have (no matter how bad that is).  At this very moment, there are folks who are unhappy with the way the story line has been advanced in Wrath of Magnus and Fall of Cadia.

Cadia CracksCadia, more like Fail-dia, AMIRITE?!

They don’t like new rules both books have given us…both in terms of unit rules and formations.  They complain about overpowered this and overcosted that.  They tell us that the direction GDub has taken the hobby in the last twelve months will not fix the problems with the game in general.  Fortunately, the cynics, IMO, represent a smaller and smaller portion of those who follow 40K.  It’s just that the Interwebs give them a disproportionate voice.  They are, of course, entitled to their opinions.

sure4

The Story Line Will Continue To Move Forward:  No more ring around the rosy, a pocket full of spears.  Whether in rules supplements, Black Library stories or in the 8th Edition rules themselves, the long awaited End Times of 40K are underway.  Will it be the same as AoS End Times?  It can’t be; mostly because of the scale of the 40K universe. (Editor’s Note: GW has actually come out on their Facebook page explicitly saying it’s not the 40k End Times.) But heroes/villians will actually die.  Other heroes/villians will appear or maybe even reappear!  This WILL happen. Worlds have been, and will continue to be, destroyed in epic fashion.

I am one of those 40K players who enjoys the backstory as much, if not more, than the gaming itself. But the same rivalries, recycled over and over again, can get a bit stale.  One of the reasons I enjoy the Hours Heresy stories so much is that despite the fact I know the conclusion, the stories I read always move the story line forward.  I am confident GW will carry this mechanic into the 40k universe, as they have already done successfully with both Wrath of Magnus and Fall of Cadia. Victor Kiam once said “Even if you fall on your face, you’re still moving forward.”  Go for it GDub!

max1Pictured: Victor Kiam*

Maxing Out:  For anyone who has read Magnus or Cadia, it is apparent that the Mothership in Nottingham is going to make us pay (both figuratively and literally) in order to get the best formation benefits.  Almost every formation in the newest supplements requires a maximum number of units to gain a benefit, such as +1 to Invulnerable saves.  This is also true for the Traitor Legion formations that I have seen.

As always, this is a bit more difficult for some factions/legions than others.  Nothing to be done about that, and I am sure there will continue to be disparity as new tomes emerge from the Warp.  Do I like it?  Hell no.  But it is reality now, and will continue to be as we approach and move into the 8th edition era.

sure5Make the bleeding stop…

Our Screaming Wallets:  I have no doubt that the coming year will continue its’ assault on our wallets.  From a hobby perspective, we will most definitely see additional Primarchs; daemon or otherwise.  New supplements to drive the story line forward.  With those, new units, new rules, new models.  8th Edition itself promises an opportunity to add updated models, new units for existing armies, and alliances that will drive hobbyists to expand into armies they might never have considered before.

Changes in rules will also cause otherwise underutilized units to become valuable again.   Speaking of supplements, this will be the instrument GW will continue to use to move things ahead.  It is an efficient and profitable way to incrementally draw us forward…resistance is futile.

sure6

40K Will Become A Gateway:  8th Edition will be used by GW to make the game more accessible to newcomers of all ages.  It will provide definitive means for younglings to start rolling dice and enjoy the game without the time investment of building, painting and attempting to run the rules maze.  This does not mean that 8th will diminish the value of hobbying and taking the game seriously as an adult gaming experience. It does mean that newcomers will have the chance to learn to love the game and the universe before being chased off by glue, paint and rules daemons.

GW knows that newcomers who enter through the gateway of Kill Team will eventually move up the consumer ladder.  They will enjoy the game enough to want to spend more time painting, buying more complex models and learning a more complex rule set.  Most of us started playing with plastic toy soldiers long before there was 40K.  There was no painting, no building, and we made up our own simple set of rules.  Some of us even used cans of Pledge and cigarette lighters to simulate flamethrowers, melting plastic men with sardonic glee…did I just say that?!

8th Edition will be the opportunity for Games Workshop to get more folks involved again in playing with plastic toy soldiers…their plastic toy soldiers.

1985-GIJoe-Armadillo-Complete

We can speculate on all of the minutia of rules, army selection, alliances and which polyhedrons we will be using.  It is a fun exercise and one that I think GW pays close attention to as it puts the finishing touches on the next iteration of our beloved game.  However, there are things we can be certain of.

Am I being arrogant?  No, it’s just that, like you, I have been around long enough and seen how GW has changed as a company in the last year or so.  I for one am taking a bit of comfort in the fact that I know what is coming (sort of).

What are you sure we will see in 8th Edition?

  • Ross McCune

    I can’t wait for 40k to get the AOS treatment personally lol its gonna be awesome!

    • Calgar

      Ive been playing 40k since second edition, and I also am looking forward to a streamlining of the rules. The game is just not accessable to new players right now.

      • Karru

        The best part is that the core rules themselves aren’t that complicated when you keep them at 5th edition levels. Ignoring things like Flyers and Super Heavies that came later, the game is actually pretty easy to teach to just about anyone. When you start bringing in the stuff GW decided to add just for s***s and giggles like the unnecessary Psychic Phase and current army building methods, things get out of hand fast.

        • Spacefrisian

          Flyers were also around in 5th, the rules for them were alot simpler though. And Superheavies and the likes didnt make the game more complex. Nor did formations (although i wouldnt mind a points cost to said formations, cause several bring free stuff in the mix)

          Also the Psychic phase was a good move, no more at random spots holding up the game so you can cast your powers…infact, i hope GW puts other stuff in that phase as well making it more like a special phase, eg AM orders acts of faith, Ethereal powers etc etc.

          • Karru

            Flyers weren’t part of the core game until 6th rolled in, they were just an expansion. Super Heavies and the like did do their damage. They increased the number pages in the rulebook and since there are Super Heavies/Gargantuans in the game that can be taken in large numbers, they are not “rare”.

            Formations added a lot of unnecessary complexity to the game. You can take formations whenever, but certain formations you cannot because they are part of an alternative detachment. Then they don’t get the effects of your primary detachment, unless they are part of your alternative detachment. It is a massive clusterf*ck.

            Psychic phase should be done like Eldar did it in 4th edition. Most powers are cast at the start of your turn. Then if you have shooting powers you can roll for those in the shooting phase. Also, it’s not the phase itself that’s the problem. The problem is all the things that came along with it. RNG powers, warp charges, deny the witch and a massive selection of psychic powers, some of which are abused hard purely because of combination possibilities.

          • John Bower

            You can’t blame the phase for rules abuse though, that was there before the psychic phase was invented. I had somebody tell me he got a cover save from a Mawloc’s TftD attack in open ground just because the FAQ said you could get a cover save. And he told me that because the marine power ‘Psychic Blast’ or whatever it was called (it was the one that used a small template at S10) wasn’t listed as a ‘witchfire’ in their book I couldn’t use it as my Terminator librarian had just come in from Deep Strike. That was in 6th ed, when they changed the psychic rules a bit but before the marines got their new codex.

          • Dragons Claw

            The expansion was an extra set of rules but there was a distinct flyer class of vehicles in 5th edition rules the storm raven was in the 5th edition grey knights and blood angels codex and the valkerie and vendetta in the imperial guard and the 2 dark elder ones all in the main codexs also I’m sure necrons flying croissants first appeared in 5th too

          • Karru

            They were just Skimmers back then. Now Flyers are both Skimmers and Flyers depending on the mode they are in which means that now one unit type has two sets of rules attached to it.

          • euansmith

            The “Hero Phase!” as AoS calls it?

            Stuff like that, and Keywords could add a lot of structure to the game.

        • SIA

          I love flyers and super heavies because it makes sense they would be on the battlefield

          • Karru

            Gameplay-wise it causes massive amounts of damage. I explained it pretty well in my other long post why.

          • It makes sense for large-scale conflicts, but not so much in skirmishes which would be best for newcomers or casual pick up games. It is complexity that should be put back to representing a different level of 40k rather than taking root in the standard format.

          • SIA

            But isn’t kill team there to be the skirmish game?

          • Karru

            Yes, but there should be a game between Apocalypse and Kill Team. Currently the game has no set scale in place. The current top armies play in their own scale while the low tier armies are in their own. Top armies play Apocalypse Lite with their super heavies, massed 6+ strength weaponry and shooting strong enough to annihilate quarters of enemy army in a turn. Meanwhile the low tier armies are playing the old pre-6th edition style games with ordinary weapons and some special weapons that can damage enemy units heavily.

          • Shawn

            I can see where super-heavies would be reserved for larger conflicts. That makes sense, however, even in smaller conflicts flyers could be relevant. Perhaps not in large numbers, but still around all the same.

          • In reality, yes, flyers might still be relevant. But it doesn’t translate well into lower-scale games on the tabletop. Having the option of taking flyers in willy-nilly skirmish games means that anti-aircraft gear and units have to be considered more heavily.

            If one side is playing an infantry skirmish with maybe a vehicle or two or a monstrous creature and has nothing to fend off aircrafts with some success, the entire game is slanted in favor of the player who brings the flyer. The same goes for big superheavies which are nigh-on invincible unless you specifically prepare to face them.

            They don’t act like regular units or vehicles and exist in their own niche, which makes them a fun pick, but also one that brings problems to the scale and considerations of the skirmish format. Ruling out those units simplifies the game and army building.

          • Shawn

            Okay, I can see what you’re saying and in some cases flyers could be a bit much in an otherwise ground game; a game we hope where it is , more or less, two equally opposing forces.
            I however, like having those flyers because it makes some semblance of sense in a game and gives me a chance to deal with other flyers and flying monstrous creatures. And I think that the flyers are some of the best models in the game.

          • But those other flyers and flying monstrous creatures wouldn’t be part of that then either, so no need to bring something to counter them. That’s the whole point, having those specialized units that take unusual methods to deal with upscales the game out of the simple pickup game range that would also appeal to newcomers.

            I’m not advocating for the removal of such units either. Just that those units need to be pushed into an advanced army rules section that, like in the old days, the players agree to use beforehand. Any tournament can and should define in its rules which of the formats or scales of the game it wants to utilize, or offer different brackets for them.

            I don’t understand why there’s a lot of praise for Age of Sigmar forcing players to communicate and shake hands before a game to figure out how they want to play, and with 40k this is so anathema to a large part of the vocal playerbase…

          • Shawn

            “I’m not advocating for the removal of such units either. Just that those units need to be pushed into an advanced army rules section that, like in the old days, the players agree to use beforehand. Any tournament can and should define in its rules which of the formats or scales of the game it wants to utilize, or offer different brackets for them.” Okay, I can get behind this and a good alternative.

            I’m just crazy about flyers and love using them. I would hate to see them go away because a small group hated using them.

          • euansmith

            But does it make sense that they would be targeting anything on the tabletop?

            Would they really be expending super expensive ammo attacking a target 25m away, especially one that their infantry and other units could attack, rather than targeting some high value target 25km away?

            To my mind, super heavies should provide a buff to near by units, and provide mobile cover, while engaging in a mini game to earn extra VPs.

          • John Bower

            Flyers maybe, but should be limited to a % of your force (5% wouldn’t be unreasonable). Super heavies are ‘last resort’ weapons, at least they were which was why they only appeared in Apocalypse games. But GW decided they weren’t selling enough so let’s dull the D weapons down and put supers in normal games and rename them Lords of War.

          • vlad78

            In a skirmish game? sure.

            GW is just forcing you to play epic space marine with 28mm minis AND a bad ruleset. (which they will not improve as they both don’t know how and don’t care)

          • SIA

            See I don’t think of 40k as a skirmish game, the only skirmish game that even remotely interests me is kill team because of the 40k setting and I already have models the others just don’t have enough models on the table to interest me. So 40k with flyers and superheavies is how I wanna play it. But I do agree they could make superheavies rarer.

          • Karru

            It’s not the rarity that I find problematic. It’s the the overwhelming firepower and nigh invincibility that causes issues. If Super Heavies could be disabled, they would me much more balanced. My single Imperial Knight has won me way too many games single handedly purely because my opponent couldn’t take down its hullpoints in time. If you decide to ignore it, you will lose. If you don’t get lucky and you are unable to destroy it, you will lose. That thing moves to fast and dishes out so much damage that ignoring it is out of the question.

        • Yep, there’s not that much you really have to trim away, you just need to compartmentalize the rules / army composition rules better.

          Different scales of play from skirmish to full scale engagements and apocalypse and that takes care of a LOT of the beginner-unfriendly and wallet-intensive stuff and the exploding scope of the franchise.

          Move more things from core rules to optional, simplify a few special rules benefits and turn actions, but keep the complexity for those who wish for it.
          Right now GW is still pushing for formations which break the limitations of the game, and that won’t ever fix it. Limiting the way the formations are handled and what units you can bring, similar to Lords of War, would help tremendously.

          • Shawn

            I particularly like your last paragraph and agree whole-heartedly, but have a bit of trepidation when you say optional rules. In my experience, most 40k players balk at the mere mention of changing the rules, or using options that aren’t core, such as Cities of Death, Planet Strike or Death from the Skies. Which are, when all is said and done, optional rules.

      • chris harrison

        Me too. It was all that formations nonsense that drove me away. Hearing they’re keeping it in is depressing.

        • HiveFleet Charybdis

          As long as they give formations a points cost I think it will be fine. It works well in AoS.

          • ZeeLobby

            It’s still like a whole other layer of rules complications though, that just were never needed before… It’s just a machine to sell models, so I understand why GW support it, it just hurts the game and new player adoption though. Games at local stores and even tournaments are plagued by “that does what? I’ve never heard of that formation”.

          • John Bower

            I don’t know why everyone gets so uptight about formations, firstly they are optional, you don’t have to have them. If you’re playing a tournament then yes it is going to be pay to win; all competition is even in the so-called ‘real world’. Football, Motorsport, Tennis, cricket etc. are all ‘pay to win’. I don’t know why 40k tourney players expect that to be any different.

            For narrative players the formations are there but only if you have the models, nobody puts a gun to your head and says, ‘you must buy this, this, this and that’. It, like Lords of War is an option you can choose to ignore. Dammit it says pretty much that at the start of the book, that both players should agree before the game begins what game they are playing.

            I limit Supers to 2500+ points, below that they are not allowed.

            Balance comes in many forms, if you play just the BRB missions then you are seriously missing out. Try a mission where the ‘super powered’ Eldar are surrounded in a city for example; I did, Chaos wiped them out. Yes, chaos, no formations, no special ‘I kill it all’ models, just run of the mill Marines and cultists took the Eldar down because they came on from any edge and had plenty of cover being in a city.

          • Jimmy

            Nobody is forcing players to use formations, but if you try to play a pickup game with a CAD against someone using formations, you’re in for a world of hurt. My marines are (no longer) living proof.

          • John Bower

            I know of CAD armies that can slaughter some of the formations. Necrons are pretty damned lethal whether or not you take a Decurion Detachment. They can whip some formations off the table even as a CAD army.

          • ZeeLobby

            As Jimmy said, my whole point was that it just hurts pickup games period. And tournament games. While you might find people you don’t know willing to play custom scenarios, etc. It’s pretty rare. It’d be nice if the core game wasn’t complex and was easy to follow. As it is, I stopped playing for 3 months, and there’s at least 20 new formations out there that I have no clue what they do. It’s one of the reasons we’re seeing huge new player dropoff at our 3 local stores. It’s just too complicated for older players to even initiate new players to the fold. It’d be a real shame if they continue that list building complexity going forward.

          • jeff white

            That and it got nichey and magic the gatheringy instead of open source fantasy scvi fi fusion so there is simply less general appeal.

          • vlad78

            “Football, Motorsport, Tennis, cricket etc. are all ‘pay to win’. I don’t
            know why 40k tourney players expect that to be any different.”

            Because you already pay to play.

          • John Bower

            So do they…..

          • vlad78

            And? It’s a game, not a professional sport. There’s no money to win, just the pleasure to play with someone who loves the game too.

        • Sentinel

          I absolutely hate formations! Apart from GW making you buy more they aren’t special apart from the fact your opponent gets to say special rule X means I insta win… I deliberately make no formation forces, so when my opponent scratches their head and asks “so what formation is that?” I tell them it isn’t one and they stare back at me horrified as they can’t comprehend it!

      • Jennifer Burdoo

        Or old ones… I do like the unbound rules, because I can build an army the way I want it. I don’t really like anything else about 8th, but particularly the randomness, the extra phases and way too many special rules.

    • Adam Murray

      Yep AoS has made the game so much more accessible and less fiddly!

      • deris87

        AoS is more accessible and less fiddly than Fantasy, but you can’t rightly call it the same game.

  • Graham Roden

    I’m looking forward to 8th, hopefully it’s as big a change as 3rd was to 2nd

    • jeff white

      Hmmm… But in reverse?

      • Graham Roden

        Yeah, maybe with the current psychic phase though. I loved 2nd edition.

  • Luc Voyer

    Im selling my chaos marine army if anyone wants it

    • Stealthbadger

      eBay link?

      • Stealthbadger

        Awww guess it was just more impotent nerd rage 🙁

        • kloosterboer

          ..Maybe he’s waiting until 8th drops, so he can set fire to it? The entertainment value would be substantially greater than the cash equivalent..

          • Stealthbadger

            Ah yes, the flawless logic of getting back at a faceless corporation by burning £1000’s of your own stuff.

    • LeroyJenkinss

      $20?

  • deris87

    They don’t want to call it the End Times because ET alienated a lot of people. Just because they’re not blowing up the galaxy doesn’t mean it’s not still the story equivalent.

    I think their end goal is to change the setting to be more dynamic,
    with the opportunity to publish a continuous stream of campaign books a la AoS that advance a story and give the opportunities to release and showcase new models. To do that, they have shake up the Grimdark status quo and change the 40 galaxy away from a bleak setting where society is slowly being ground down by threats on all sides.

    The Eldar having their own living god to take the fight to Slaanesh fits into that quite obviously, and isn’t too far removed from the Aelves having Malerion and Tyrion who went out and captured Slaanesh. I also wouldn’t put it past them to finally “kill” the Emperor–the ultimate symbol of stagnation in the 40k setting– in order to have him finally be reborn somehow or otherwise reestablish Imperium Secundus led by the returning
    primarchs. There have certainly been hints at it with the Golden Throne failing and the pact struck with the Dark Eldar to decide the fate of humanity, etc.

    The setting will go from slow, grimdark decay into a dynamic setting where not-as-evil and evil have a back and forth and there can be an ever-advancing story. Obviously this is speculation but based on the fairly big changes we’ve seen already just in 3-4 campaign books, and with looming plot threads that have been seeded in previous codices, there look to be some pretty dramatic changes still coming.

    • Stealthbadger
      • I STILL see this as 40k’s End times. Huge, fancy models and special books just for advancing the story? Seems awfully familiar to me…
        Let’s just hope that 8th edition doesn’t switch us to hex bases or something!

        • Talos2

          Apart from end times didn’t really advance the story, it just ended it and started again. At first that is what it seemed to be doing but as a fair amount of the stuff that died has made its way to aos, it was meaningless.

          • Shawn

            Fair amount? Granted, I haven’t read or seen everything AoS yet, but I know of Sigmar, Nagash, Aerielle, Von Carstien, and Acheron as the only ones who made it to the wold world. Chaos gods and demons don’t count.

          • Glottkin, Grimnir, Grungni, Teclis, Tyrion, Malakith (Malorian now), Kroak, and yeah, tons of demons.

            But a ton more died and don’t come back. Basically the only survivors were gods (recently ascended due to the winds of magic)

          • Shawn

            Gotcha. Thanks Jaeril. I know absolutely nothing about the Old World fluff-wise.

        • Stealthbadger

          That’s ok. But the above image is GW saying it isn’t, if you don’t want to believe them that’s ok.

          • euansmith

            In the world of “fake news” and “alternative truth”, it is nice to have someone you can trust.

          • Hedwerx

            We’ve got the Imperial Truth.

          • Shawn

            And that’s the only truth we need.

          • jeff white

            Trust me.

        • HiveFleet Charybdis

          I think it may be a “go mad” with your armies for a last crazy set of games. Before GW hit a big button called Reset.

          Although I appreciate reset implies going backwards

          • SWISSchris

            This is what it feels like. Business-wise it seems similar to end times WHFB: books introducing tweaks to existing forces and a small number of new character models. Would be genuinely surprised if 8th launched with a heavily reworked Imperial fluff though… but stranger things have happened.

        • special books just for advancing the story have been a thing for many, many years. Remember Sanctus Reach, Shield of Baal, or indeed the old Eye of Terror? They’ve been around forever, and it was a pity they didn’t do them for so long in between.

          • deris87

            The difference is those largely told self-contained stories, or at most only had little snippets of setting-advancing fluff. The status quo of the setting remained largely unchanged.

      • deris87

        Uh-huh. And did you not read the first sentence I wrote? They can call it what they want but a spade is still a spade.

        • Stealthbadger

          Oh, sorry. Didn’t post this to agree or disagree. Just thought it might be of interest 🙂

          Could even be a fake pic, I copied it from nafka.

          • deris87

            It’s legit, but it really doesn’t mean much. There’s all kinds of ways they can radically change the setting and redefine the factions short of blowing up the universe. I mean, even just through Warzone Fenris and Gathering Storm the parellels to the ET books are so obvious someone would have to be willfully ignoring it to pretend otherwise.

          • Stealthbadger

            Well I choose to believe them that it’s just a narrative campaign. If you choose to disbelieve them, then that’s equally possible I suppose.

            Separately, I’ve yet to see anything confirming 8th other than self perpetuating rumours. GW have announced nothing as far as I’ve seen.

          • deris87

            It really doesn’t matter what they call it; the final advance of Chaos has begun, ancient powerful figures from the lore have returned, long hinted at plot threads are coming to fruition, and the iconic home worlds of 3 major factions have been literally or effectively destroyed. This is exactly what happened in End Times.

          • wavelover42

            In all the lore that i have read. The 13th Black Crusade was the start of the End Times. Cadia was the dam that held back chaos. That dam is busted. There is no going back from that. I agree with deris87. GW may not say it is End Times, but all the lore up to this point is contradictory to there statement. We also have to look at the returning Primarchs. Russ said he was going to come back in the End Times. Same for the lion. The Eldar are bringing fourth there Death God, which was only to happen in the End Times. I do think we all can agree that GW has decided to move the narrative forward, which is preaty significant for GWs static1 minute to midnight setting. I have mentioned this before, since this was GW 30th anniversary; GW could stretch this new Progression of the lore and setting for 10 more years, and have the cataclysmic event. like the death of the emperor on their 40 year anniversary which would be peaty symbolic.

          • euansmith

            Indeed, there is no rush. The Galaxy is a big place (even the tiny, fictional 40k Galaxy).

          • wavelover42

            Agreed. lets just enjoy the ride!

          • euansmith
          • wavelover42
          • Shawn

            I don’t play space wolves, so I didn’t do the Warzone Fenris bit, but the space wolves survived, yeah? What other two factions lost their home world?

          • deris87

            The Wolves survived but Fenris got trashed and most of the population was exterminated by the Grey Knights for having seen daemons. The pylons on Cadia burned out so the Eye of Terror literally expanded to swallow the Cadia system and the planet exploded. Biel Tan is, depending on the rumors, either being destroyed or simply splitting up politically and the craftworld literally splits apart into the smaller ships that originally made it up.

          • Shawn

            Okay, I’ll have to read gathering storm again. I know the eye of terror opened up, but I don’t recall it swallowing the entire system.

            Seems harsh, even for the Greyknights, but they serve the Inquisition, yeah? Any idea what the space wolves did in the aftermath?

          • deris87

            Honestly it’s standard operating procedure for daemon encounters. Even Space Marines are subject to mind wiping, and regular grunts and civilians are frequently outright killed to prevent the knowledge and possible taint from spreading. It’s been a while since I read the synopsis, but I believe the GK, SW, and DA were heading out to respond to the 13th Black Crusade after that.

          • jeff white

            It is called The Nile.

          • ZeeLobby

            Probably real. I just don’t think GW would admit that it’s the end times even if it was. End Times rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, haha. It’d be bad marketing to tie this to similar terms.

          • jeff white

            In the far future there is only bad marketing

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. They try… Sometimes.

    • jeff white

      I been calling it for years that gw will manage things this way.. Subscription model “narrative” pressing peeps to pay for the new IP to stay story current and rules blessed

  • crumbreaper

    my experience having played since Rogue Trader era GW is that some stuff gets nerfed a bit, other stuff gets buffed a bit, house rules sort out some other bits and me and my mates carry on enjoying a fantastic hobby.
    Other people are of course entitled to be grumpy.

    • ZeeLobby

      Eh. I made it half way through 7th (started in 3rd), before I just couldn’t deal with the ridiculous gaps. They definitely grew over the past few editions.

    • jeff white

      Yeah. Some people let other men sleep with their wives too… Don’t understand either mentality

    • Nyyppä

      How do you force a game enhancing house rule on the whole community? I’m asking because if one can do that 40k might be a game worth playing after all.

      • jeff white

        the 41st age social networking app, of course!

        • Nyyppä

          Cool! Are those available in the Grim Dark store?

  • Karru

    To me 8th edition will make or break 40k. If it becomes AoS in space, it will stop being 40k and becomes AoS in space just as Warhammer Fantasy stopped being Warhammer Fantasy when AoS replaced it. If they continue the current suite and just add more rules to it, it will still break the game.

    There is the microscopic sliver of hope that GW realises some of the major problems in the game. Heavy favouring of shooting, lack of fixed scale and overwhelming damage that can be dealt are amongst the troublemakers. Without going into my long list of problems I have with the game and what could be done with them, I’m just going to post some of the problems that 40k suffers from.

    Lack of fixed scale is the biggest. Are we playing Apocalypse Lite or what 40k was before 6th? Imperials, Eldar and Tau are running around with cheap Gargantuans or Super Heavies as well as weapons that can wipe out entire units in a single volley. They are getting free stuff with their formations and can field them extremely easily even in small games. Then you have armies like Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and other similar armies that are stuck in pre-6th edition size. They field regular weaponry that requires multiple turns of sustained fire to take down the opponent or have some special weapons that can take down a vehicle or heavily damage a unit in single turn.

    This is what I find to be the core of the issue. Orks and Imperial Guard for example have extremely expensive formations that can only be fielded reasonably in a 3000+pts games. Reasonably in this situation means that you didn’t purposefully gimp yourself. Then you have the Mechanicus War Convocation that gets free upgrades from taking regular army and a Knight. There is no sense of actual scale. Some armies are getting spammable super weapons like Grav, Strength 6+ shooting and massed AP3-2 weaponry with easy access to Ignores Cover Saves. Then you have armies that have only Strength 4-5 on mass and an average AP of 5-6.

    Heavy favouring of shooting is also amongst the core issues. With everything that made Assaulting useful removed when 6th rolled in and adding RNG charge distances while giving shooting incredible amount of buffs made the game one-sided for certain army builds. Giving Assaulting Units their old benefits back would go a long way. Being able to assault from Outflank or Transports that haven’t moved that turn would make fortifying one corner of the board with massive firepower and skimming the edges of the board with fast units unreliable bringing the power level down heavily.

    • Dan T

      They ought to make WS a better stat.

      • Karru

        Maybe they could making it harder to hit things with low WS. Where models with WS4 hit WS3 guys on a 3+, the WS3 should hit the WS4 guys on a 5+. If you get more than double then they hit on a 6+ while you hit on a 2+. This makes elite melee units extremely powerful.

        • kloosterboer

          …you’re describing Oldhammer, right there.

    • ZeeLobby

      Man, right there with yah. It always sucks that these exciting End Times lead ups are always played in the broken system. I hope they continue moving the story in 8th AND have better rules.

    • jeff white

      To hit negatives for fast moving running and not shooting and charging units would help. Plus force players to declare all shooting and all charging at the beginning of the turn ala epic if I remember correctly from twenty odd years ago

  • Joe Shlabotnik

    Please note that “streamline rules and turn” does not mean “completely destroy a huge game universe”

    • HiveFleet Charybdis

      Exactly!

    • SWISSchris

      Absolutely – I can deal with rules changes but I’d be less invested in the setting if there were huge cataclysmic changes to the the background I’ve followed for 25 years. Small movements to an ongoing storyline in, say, M42, I would be totally fine with. Evolution not revolution.

  • Nathaniel Wright

    Reading Comprehension is not one of the strengths of the internet. Color me surprised.

  • Nyyppä

    Well, if they at least kill off deathstars and fix the anti melee and anti monster bias in the rules this might be worth it.

    GW has not assaulted my wallet sing TL was released. That was the point in which my suspicion regarding their bias against all the armies I’m unfortunate enough to like went from a theory to fact. It’s close to a year since I last gave them money.

    • Munn

      I think they should go the other way, the assault phase iss basically just filling in an excel spreadsheet and waiting for it to spit out the outcome both players knew would happen before the dice even got rolled. Push melee down even further and you’d save a bunch of time in the most boring untactical phase of the game.

      • Nyyppä

        And by doing that the following factions would cease to exist: CSM, KDK, Nids, Orks, Daemons, BA, SW. Also significant portions of other factions would disappear. Actually only AM and TAU would not get a hit.

        Let me guess, you play gunlines.

        If you look at the shooting it’s not any more tactical than melee. Presently popular guns just delete units by default so why not take the game straight in to rules like “point at the target of an attack, the owning player of that unit then removes it from the board, repeat until all units have shot/attacked”? That’s what it is now anyway and the rolling just takes time needlessly.

      • jeff white

        Ummm… Jones’ eyes are bad. Let’s cut off his nose to let him get a closer look.

  • Talos2

    40k definitely needs a big overhaul, it’s just not a fun game anymore unless you get really lucky with your opponent. It’s practically impossible to know what every rule does due to the vast number of books, faqs and supplements so games, even for very experienced players, are still interrupted by flicking through the rule book trying to work out gws logic for where they’ve put the rule you’re struggling to find. In terms of aos being the new template I’d just like to ask those that play it whether there is still a power creep to certain races, as if there is it’s not the answer.

  • SilentPony

    If they want to make it End Timesy, chapter 1 page 1 needs to be:

    “And then the Emperor stood up. And Horus came back to life”

    Anything less than that, and its all noise.

    • Isn’t that what 30k is all about?

      • SilentPony

        Yeah, and the HH was considered the biggest, most devastating war of all time. So if GW wants to pull an end times type thing, they need to do something on par with the HH, which would include the Big E and Horus squaring off again.

        • euansmith

          I thought that the War with the Men of Iron was the biggest war in human 40k history. I’m thinking that the War in Heaven was probably bigger than that.

  • piglette

    Can ADB write an Emperor’s Children omnibus?

  • Brad Parks

    I’d like to see a nerf across the board for everything. Less attacks, less shots, fewer saves. Less math means things move quicker, everyone hates spending 4 hours of getting their teeth kicked in. If you can get 2 games in during the same time as one current game or even play big games that don’t take multiple days, I think that makes everyone have a better time.

    • ZeeLobby

      Reduced range on shooting would make the game a totally better experience.

      • euansmith

        You can achieve that by making more terrain. 😉

        • ZeeLobby

          i mean unless your constructing a bunch of 12″ walls, the gigantic models with nasty weapons (WKs for example) no longer care about puny terrain. I just don’t see why any gun should have a max range of 72″, or why the average gun is around 24″

          • euansmith

            If a gun has got a maximum range of 72″, it probably needs a minimum range of 12″ to balance it out.

          • ZeeLobby

            Heck, make it 24″ and have it actually require tactics.

          • jeff white

            To hit mods for short medium long… Now where have we seen this before?

        • Shawn

          Not making more terrain, but, rather, actually putting it on the board. For instance, never let a Tau player set up the board!

  • Heinz Fiction

    If I can have semi competitive games with my existing tyranid and eldar armies and don’t have to buy titans, flyers or allies to kill stuff, I will buy it. Don’t really care for anything else.

    • Nyyppä

      That would mean that they make nids at least demi competitive.

  • Thomas Gardiner

    Talking about cynics and critics as if they’re inherently bad.

    That fanboyism is *exactly* why I’ve decided to give up this hobby and leave the community. That inability to just go “well I disagree with your opinion, but it’s valid.” That bizarre desire to cast any criticism as an intrinsically bad thing.

    Don’t want to be part of such a cliquey, cultish community any more. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah… It’s kind of a plague on society itself these days. Just look at the console wars, etc. The anonymity of the internet and the realization that you can say whatever you want without having to prove or support anything, has just killed any real critical discussion. Sorry to see you go, but I can definitely understand why. I’d argue that some other wargamming systems have a much less judgmental crowd when it comes to recommending improvements or complaining about inconsistency, but it exists pretty much everywhere these days (Apple vs Microsoft, etc.). Why any person vehemently defends a company whose purely interested in their money over anything else is beyond me…

      • Thomas Gardiner

        It’s because they let it become part of their identity. They’re not just a customer, they’re a “wargamer” who’s part of a “wargaming culture” and it’s ultimately hollow because it’s an identity and a culture based on your practices as a consumer. And the insecurity and shallowness of that identity they’ve chosen makes them prone to aggressive outbursts in order to defend it.

        Thus, any criticism of their favoured product becomes an attack on their very identity and the shallow consumer culture they’ve allowed themselves to be immersed in. There’s actually been stuff written on the psychology of “fandom” and it’s fascinating, but utterly depressing.

        I’d love to see a sociologist or social psychologist do some research into the tribalistic fan behaviours surrounding wargaming. Might put my degree to use and do it myself!

        • Kreoss4u

          I wish I could give this 1000 thumbs up. Well stated.

        • jeff white

          Agreed

  • Punkindrublic

    I am quite sure we will see the nerdrage of the fa/tg/uys burn brighter than a thousand suns.

    • Hedwerx

      I’m waiting for FW to drastically overhaul the HH system. I want to see a youtube video of the Thousand Sons burning with the brightness of a thousand suns.

  • AnomanderRake

    Why “most will enjoy”/”some will despise” instead of “some will enjoy”/”most will despise”? The split is going to be dependent on how it’s handled, and absent any information on that front neither you nor I have any way of saying.

    • Karru

      The way I see it, new people most likely will enjoy it but veterans will despise it if it suffers the fate of WHFB and is AoS’d. 40k players losing the game they have been playing for years suddenly gone will make a lot of the very angry.

  • Daniel R Weber

    I always like that ‘people resist change’ in games like it’s an inherently bad thing to not want to see the game you play become a different game. When 40k dumbed down to standardized movement rates it was a reduction in the variety of the game, but didn’t kill what was ’40k’ likewise although I continue to hate the AP system as another ‘dumbing down’ it kept 40k still pretty much 40k. Then look at Warhammer. editions of WH changed WH but it was WH. AoS turned Warhammer into an entirely different game. GW killed FB at 8th and began an entirely new game with Sigmar. It’s still ‘warhammer’ in the loosest of terms but to agree that someone hating the ‘change’ between 8e and AoS as being resistant in some way misses the point. FB players wanted to play FB with fixes not an entirely new game. We’ll see how much AoS creeps into 8e and changes 40k from 40k to an entirely new game. Some will be welcome, but not all.

  • Andrew Long

    Each new overhaul has made 40k better. Rogue trader to second to third. No reason why a new system won’t vastly improve it again. Cutting down the time it takes to play a game by half is pretty much going to decide if I sell up or not.

    For eg. AoS has vastly improved WFB. Lot of new players fresh to wargaming are playing it – not just kids. It’s cleverer than its given credit for. In fact I’ve not played 40k in over a year since aos was released, it’s like playing the latest computer game series, and then going back and replaying the first – its just so old and clunky.

    • vlad78

      No. Just NO. 40k overhaul did improve the game until 5th. It’s no longer true.
      5th 40k edition minus codex creep was just the best. 6th edition was the worse and 7th is in between but including billions of formations, flyers and superheavies in every game is making things a lot worse.

      AOS did not improve WFB, it’s a totally different beast with less tactics but a more dynamic and simple ruleset (for now, wait for the formations bloat once every faction has been released again). BTW it is totally dead where I live.

      And eventually if the new 40k will not include alternate activation, it will be as bad as before, no matter how much simplification they put in it. (unleash the old epic space marine dammit)

      • SWISSchris

        Your first two sentences are absolutely spot on for me. The level of 5th is where I prefer to play at. Once apocalypse / epic style units became regular the whole emphasis of the game changed and with the tidal wave of new special rules introduced linked to formations it’s just gotten totally insane.

        • Kolobius

          I enjoy the grander aspect of the game by including those. It makes zero sense to me that a futuristic army that has access to massive tanks, titans, and air support wouldn’t be using any of it. Hell add in a 100pt per use orbital bombardment to signify naval support.

      • Andrew Long

        They’ve been fiddling with the base 40k third edition rules for the last few editions. As you say, 5th ed was it’s best version (well, for most armies anyway), but it’s falling apart at the seams now with expansion after expansion.

        AoS is thriving all over the place. WFB was dying a death, with less and less participation each tourney I was seeing. I know this is anecdotal, but by most accounts, this was occurring everywhere. AoS was a terrible launch, one of the worst you’ll ever see – a PR disaster that nearly did it in. But buried in all that stupidity was a great game.

        Fast forward a year – since GW’s management change and the release of the general’s handbook, AoS is now gaining a lot of momentum. AoS tourney numbers in New Zealand are now often outnumbering 9th Age groups and this is happening in many cities globally.

        I wouldn’t rule it out. It is a lot more tactical that it seems at first glance – certainly no more banal than 40k has been for a decade. In fact, many players have come from 40k and you’ll struggle to get them back to 40k without a massive overhaul.

  • So.. they’re planning on making it more accessible by requiring more purchases of splat books while encouraging more min-maxing and stupid “alliances” in the name of powergaming? That’s exactly the stuff that pushed me away.. BRB, Codex, a few optional rules like old chapter approved, and armies that don’t require a flow chart.. Why is that so difficult?

  • jeff white

    Been around since man o war. Psychic powers should be paid for like guns and used accordingly

  • jeff white

    Gw will fail the same way McDonalds failed and is failing. Forgetting what made them successful and alienating their core market with value added gimmicks and high prices

    • Countdiscount

      GW’s been winning pretty consistently over the past year.

      • jeff white

        Yeah and McDonald’s brought back the dollar menu and whatever to try to win back customers and still bleeding like a sieve for a number of reasons… My money is on new management inheriting ten years of bad momentum and being unable to turn it back. They will likely further alienate their original base and most valuable commodity that being smart cool successful people who have been carrying their water for thirty years and have to start over again. This whole remake seems to be new management conceding this fact and all the spit and polish and community outreach is to make up for what they know is coming… They will have to start over building a new and decidedly more fickle customer and fan base same as McDonald’s and will fail as the new kids have more options and less interest in proprietary bubbleverses

        • Loki Nahat

          I’ve found it’s almost impossible to explain this to the new kids, it’s like they’ve never had any experiences with franchises literally destroying themselves *sigh*

          • jeff white

            try explaining this to the MBAs who run things (into the ground, worldwide, neoliberal debt-slave capitalism style)

          • Loki Nahat

            Master bulls*** artists. Have you ever metbone who knew his elbow from his posterior?

        • Countdiscount

          “Some Folks Will Despise 8th Edition: A wave of despair will hit the Interwebs within hours of 8th Edtion hitting the shelves. Why? Because there are always those for whom change is anathema. Doesn’t matter what the change is. It is change, and by God, it can’t be as good as what we already have (no matter how bad that is). At this very moment, there are folks who are unhappy with the way the story line has been advanced in Wrath of Magnus and Fall of Cadia.

          They don’t like new rules both books have given us…both in terms of unit rules and formations. They complain about overpowered this and overcosted that. They tell us that the direction GDub has taken the hobby in the last twelve months will not fix the problems with the game in general. Fortunately, the cynics, IMO, represent a smaller and smaller portion of those who follow 40K. It’s just that the Interwebs give them a disproportionate voice. They are, of course, entitled to their opinions.”

          • jeff white

            Yeah… Smaller and smaller cuz they give up… Good luck with that with me card player

  • ALittleGreeky

    The thing that people need to understand is that whether or not the game get’s the AoS treatment, it needs to be streamlined. Teaching new people or trying to get people into the game is a serious uphill battle.

    • vlad78

      No one contest that, it’s how the simplification will happen which will matter. AOS has some good ideas but overall it’s a bit over the top in the streamlining direction. I think 40k needs something new. (at least new in this game)

      One of the biggest 8th pitfall would be to simplify the core ruleset too much to give room to complexe formations requiring to buy minis from several different codicies or factions at once.

      I can’t list all the needed changes that would imho be required but some basic moves should be obvious.

      – seperate clearly the format and create more official levels of play indicating if formations flyers and SH are included or not. (maybe maybe they’ll allow that but my money is rather on including only combat patrol and the rest, GW is hell bent on making us buy as many big kits as possible even if it makes the game suffer, just because the competition can’t follow)
      – change the game flow, introduce alternate activation (compulsory to improve the game)
      – unify monsters and vehicles with a T stat.
      – include all special rules in the BRB and tinker with them, stop introducing 100+ special rules every month just because they can.
      – tonedown psykic powers combos and things like invisibility.
      – No rerollable 2+ saves EVER.
      – give more tactical possibilities.
      – really ponder upon the utility of each weapon in each army, avoid useless or redondant or too powerful gears (I’m looking at you grav weapons which replaced almost everything but the meltagun) and provide alternative built. (Why do every SM commanders have to take a stormshield, can’t they replace it with a refractor field allowing different combinations than the ubiquitous SS and TH?)
      – playtest playtest playtest AND FAQ to amend the game when a weakness is spotted.

  • SteelMaelstorm

    Because of falling profits and in a blatant bid to sell large expensive models, “Apocalypse only” and “Apocalypse formations” came crashing in to 6th and 7th edition. Battle-brothers is another blatant bid for cashing in more models. The Grey knight baby-carrier followed by the Wraithknight quickly led to giant model power creep (leap). The Necron Decurion showed them they could sell an entire army based on free formations – adding a whole new level of complication to the rules. How many bandwagon players jumped into Necrons with the new Decurion formation rules? Sales spike!
    .
    None of these actions have made the game any better, just much more expensive, more time consuming, more complicated and reduced the new player base to a trickle.
    .
    Tri-hards will staunchly defend the inclusion of the Apoc models and formations along with battle-brothers to bend the rules. As their favorite uber-combination of Apoc models+Formation+Battle-brother is now nigh-unkillable.
    .
    Leave Lords-of-War, Superheavies, Gargantuan Creatures, formations and battle-brothers to 2,500 point and larger games and all of the sudden you might be able to interest a new player in an already luxury priced game.

    • Shawn

      I would argue that part of the reason for this is the hyper-competitive folks, who will easily fork over the money to get the lastest and greatest for that special easy win army. And if GW knows they’ll buy the latest and greatest, well then, they’ll just helpl those players get the winning models they want.

  • Dennis J. Pechavar

    I will be excited when I see the new rules. Until then I will hold off buying as every edition nerfs something.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Correction: the new Formation model is take all to get all, not take all to get any. For most of them, maxing out only grants a modest increase in overall power compared to what the bare-bones formation gets. And it hasn’t even been universal among new formations. MoG doesn’t really care about being maxed out, and while the stat boosts in the other Cult CSM formations are useful, they aren’t exactly definitive, must have rules.

    Anyway, to give a short, flippant answer your question: six-sided dice, rulers and miniatures. Possibly binders full of free unit stats.
    Longer answer: mountains of obsolete blast and flamer templates. Drastic engagement range decreases. No more effectively infinite range shooting. Vastly simplified rules. Drop-troop lists and easier to counter auto-wound spam will dominate, as will heavy armour/MC lists.
    Wish list answer, somewhat supported by recent releases: the 3 current flavours Eldar being collapsed into a single, slightly less reliable, but more enjoyable to face, faction. Tau getting Creeded to the brink of extinction by the Alpha Legion in the fluff, and getting gimped hard by the mechanics reboot. Orks becoming viable again, due both to a serious rules overhaul, and Ghaz becoming a big, green, bipolar Super-Saiyan, with a Magnus-tier rules footprint. The Guard, Orks, and Nids will become viable again after learning wave assault tactics at a GSC-ran Military cram school, while Crons sit quietly in the back, chuckling. Sororitas become tactically relevant, mainly by being de-cludged.

  • DaveTycho

    Any ideas as to when GW will release their new GI Joe 40k faction?

  • Lord Elpus

    About the only thing I would like kept is the F.O.C apart from that, I don’t really care, it’ll change like it has done since I started in RT…

  • Kruno

    can’t wait for someone to buy my armies on ebay