40K BREAKING: GW Talks Psychic Phase

Games Workshop is back with more teaser info and this time the tackle the much maligned Psychic Phase!

The team from the Warhammer Community site has been teasing tidbits all week long. Today, that focus is on the “love it or hate it” psychic phase! This one is going to be interesting…

via Warhammer Community

“Each time you pick a psyker, you can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level) and there’s a simpler, two-dice mechanic for casting, you just need to beat the warp charge value. The more potent the power, the harder it will be to cast.

Enemy psykers will then have a chance to block these powers if they are within 24″, and again, the mastery of the psyker will dictate how often they can block a power each turn.

Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers. In addition, every psyker knows the Smite power:”

Want more? Read the entire article from Games Workshop HERE

While that’s a fairly quick rundown, there are quite a few changes key changes to call out:

  • The Old “Warp Charges” are gone – the system has moved to a simple “two-dice mechanic” and you just need to beat the warp charge value.
  • Enemy Psykers will have a chance to stop a power if they are within 24″ – this is dependent on their mastery level.
  • The number of powers you can block also depends on the defending psyker’s mastery level.
  • Perils of the Warp is still around!
  • And did you catch the bit about Mortal Wounds? Yeah – those are in the game now and apparently they bypass all armor and even INVULNERABLE saves!

Looking at this system, it does seem to speed up the game quite a bit which I’m all for. I do like that “lesser psykers” will no longer be able to act as batteries for the more powerful psykers in the army. GW does think that this system will scale better at all size games, and I can see their point. However, I still think that a psyker dominate force will run rampant over an army that isn’t equipped to deal with them.

But that’s kind of the point, right? Just like an army that goes shooting heavy or close-combat focused, they are gearing up to “win” in one specific phase. With this new setup, it certainly feels like the psyker-heavy force will have to alter their tactics; instead of one mega caster expect to see their “heavy hitter” backed-up by a bunch of lesser ones. Only this time it one be the “mega powers” that get you, it will be a death by a thousand sons cuts.

The Smite example power is all we have to go on right now. The power itself is actually pretty solid! I like the way they incorporated the “success” value into the cast. Roll over a 5 and the power goes off but if you roll really well then the power is even more effective. I’ve seen this type of thing in other games and it’s a way to add some extra drama to the dice roll without adding a bunch of extra time to the game.

I’m now REALLY curious about the other powers in the game. Will Invisibility be back? What about summoning? That’s a really scary thought actually…Summoning a bunch of daemons who just toss out Smite every turn. “It’s basically a shooting attack though” I hear you say – only those are Mortal Wounds and you don’t roll to hit or wound. Which reminds me, I think I need to stock up on Zoanthropes for my ‘Nids. Forget Warp Lance, one of my least favorite powers – I’ll take this new Smite over that any day!

 

So what do you think? Are you excited about the changes or are you afraid of the Psykers?

  • Farseerer

    Interesting. The speeding up of the psychic phase was inevitable and looking at AoS, this way of casting and denying has been on the cards since they announced they were changing the psychic phase in the first place.

    The Smite power seems quite powerful but not really that game changing unless you’re bringing a psyker heavy list. That may be difficult in most cases if we are going back to FOC type lists. It seems fluffy that all psykers have a kind of generic way to smash a nearby unit with psychic power. GK making a comeback? Sounds OK to me, the poor fellas have had it rougher and rougher in 7th as it progressed. (Not Ork/AM rough but still rough)

    I’m sure the different factions will have items etc. that will make it easier to cast/deny/avoid perils so I’m thinking that not a huge amount changes in that respect. Looking at you Ghosthelm

    This little update raises more questions than answers right now which I guess it the point if GW are trying to build hype for 8th. The real questions are in my opinion:

    – What are the other powers that each faction will get? I hope that Smite is the one and only generic power across factions and every army’s psychic phase has its own unique feel.
    – Will they be appropriately costed? I’ve always found it funny how Cheap Farseers/Librarians are relative to Autarchs/Captains+Chaplains with regards to the army-wide buffs they give. In the fluff it seems like psykers are rarer on a battlefield than regular commanders so I’m all for them being there but they should be costly to field.
    – Will psykers be able to only pick and pay for the powers that they want? It seems that if streamlining is the key theme for 8th, then removing the rolling for your powers mechanic is almost definitely going to happen.
    – Will the really powerful powers like Invisibility and Veil of Time still exist and if they do will they be extremely hard to cast and be appropriately expensive points-wise? I never liked that casting something like Invisibility ( even with the ITC nerf ) at the right time and on the right model(s) would be enough to win a game.
    – Will lists without psykers be just as viable as with? I don’t want to have to bring a psyker just to try and nullify my opponents.

    TLDR: I think this is great as long as psykers get hit with the rebalancing stick as hard if not harder than everything else except Ynnari.

    • BaronVonYoloing

      I’m going to try to answer some of your questions from what I gathered from the news article. Hopefully it might be helpful (except when it’s completely different!):

      Smite appears to be the only generic power all psykers get. Every psyker gets access to a list of spells that seem to differ by race.

      Can’t answer for points costs for obvious reasons.

      As mentioned before it looks like all powers are defined by race. As to the distribution of these powers I can’t say but following the Age of Sigmar lead (since casting works the same way there as here) there are very few powers that cross factions. As for picking it seems there is a pool of powers psykers may select from every psychic phase.

      Hopefully it’s possible to run an army without psykers but that remains to be seen. You can in Age of Sigmar (although, like shooting, massed psyker spam isn’t prevalent there either).

      • Farseerer

        Thanks for your reply.

        It’s looking like 40k is adapting a lot of the mechanics from AoS but I’m hoping for more complexity in terms of unit customization. One of the best, if not the best thing about the game is the ability of units to carry out multiple roles depending on how they’re kitted out. It would be sweet if they brought back the ability to pay for whatever psychic powers you wanted.

        • generalchaos34

          they did say during their livecast that there is 2 versions of the game for points. In narrative its like AoS where it just says “take X or Y on your unit as much as you want” and it costs the same and they said in competitive all upgrades will be point costed.

    • Koonitz

      “The Smite power seems quite powerful but not really that game changing unless you’re bringing a psyker heavy list.”

      It’s also worth pointing out, based on this, that AoS has a rule preventing any one power from being cast more than once per turn, regardless how many psykers know the power. You could have 6 psykers, all who know their own version of Smite (using the narrative to make each one cool and unique and fun), but only one of those psykers can cast it per turn.

      In addition, in AoS, when an army has access to their own lore (ie: Sylvaneth), you choose which power from the lore you know, instead of randomly determining. If you can pick the same power on every psyker, restricting each power to once per turn is an easy way to prevent “have” powers from easily dominating.

      If this is the case, if you want a psyker heavy army, you’ll have to be prepared to use a large variety of available powers within your army, which I think is pretty cool. Instead of just spamming smite, or the next best go-to power every turn.

      • Farseerer

        I hope that rule gets ported over from AoS. I’m all for only one of each power per turn. I’d say the chances are high considering how many rules will be shared between the two systems soon. Exciting times

        • generalchaos34

          plus the 1 power really isnt that restricting unless you take a ton of the same caster, since most casters have a reasonably nice signature spell, and using that 1 arcane bolt or mystic shield really comes down to placement and opportunity

      • AircoolUK

        Yeah, that’s why they have the two basic spells in AoS, as it gives you a few basic options if you caster can’t use their chosen spell, or if there’s no point in casting it for whatever reason.

        Mystic Shield is usually a good option if your other spells aren’t suitable for the situation.

        Each unit will have it’s own spells/power, and there’ll be extra choices based on which echelon/keyword you are using for your force organisation.

        EG – Space Marines will have their own powers to choose from, but certain chapters will have one’s unique to them… plus formations etc… etc…

        Plenty of choice.

        • Shawn

          I hope that’s the case. I wan’t something like Biomancy and Technomancy for my Iron Hands.

          • AircoolUK

            You can guarantee that each Chapter will have it’s own powers tailored to the Chapters fluff and tactics rather than having to choose from universal lists.

          • Shawn

            That would be a good thing. I’m just more than a little concerned that they’ll vanilla down the codex chapters even more.

    • Cohiba Rafael

      If they follow AOS you will only be able to cast Smite once per turn in match play. So you won’t be able to have multiple psykers fire the same power.

  • Heinz Fiction

    I still think an entire phase is giving to much emphasis on a gimmick that half of the factions don’t even have. still it sounds better than this WHFB-like “magic phase” of 7th edition.

    I hope the power loadout of psykers is not determined randomly as I consider this the worst idea in hundred years of tabletop history but I’m afraid they stick to it…

    • Xodis

      Apparently ALL factions will be able to utilize the psychic phase and have their own psychic lore.

      • Tiernoc

        Gonna be interesting, seeing how the Necrons and the Imperial Knights utilize psykers … I could see the C’tan (or possibly the Crypteks) filling this role for the Necrons, but the Imperial Knights? Or the Admech?

        • Keith Wilson

          betting the admech canticles come into play here as their “psychic” like ability

        • euansmith

          The Titans have Psi-Titans, so maybe Knight Titans can have little Psi-Knights? Or maybe a wholly Knight army (an abomination outside of Apocalypse) will be a thing of the past. 😉

          • Koonitz

            If you read through the comments from the WarHammer 40,000 facebook post, WarHammer 40,000 made multiple comments of every army having a psychic phase, but if your army doesn’t have a psyker, there’s not much they can do in it.

            I suspect certain psyker-lacking armies will have units or abilities that can act as counters, sort of like psychic nulls, where a non-psyker has an ability that allows them to try to unbind a power as if they were a psyker.

          • AircoolUK

            Yeah, I can definitely see some armies being able to attempt to nullify powers in the psychic phase… doesn’t farsight or another tau have something like that?

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            #ExcuseForANewKnight

        • Xodis

          How about a Khorne army with Psykers? lol Talk about kicking your fanbase.

          • Tim Lester

            Perhaps a khorn army would havepowers that boost the rage or speed, not necessarily psychic powers bit more along the lines of buff/debuffs?

          • Xodis

            Not a bad idea, it will definitely be interesting to see what happens.

          • Dan Wilson

            KHORNE “psykers”could be priests like the slaughter priest in AoS.

          • generalchaos34

            dont forget the guy who plants a HUGE banner that opens a mini portal to Khornes fortress and gives everyone bonus attacks, so I can easily see this being a KDK thing.

          • AircoolUK

            Heh, perhaps buff/debuff phase would have been more appropriate 🙂

          • euansmith

            The AoS Khorne dudes get a bunch of powers caused by rage, hatred and BLUUUUUUD!!!

        • Dan Wilson

          Crypteks will probably have abilities that “mirror” psychic abilities I would imagine.

      • Walter Vining

        facebook post did exclude crons and tau, there was one other but I don’t remember it off hand.

        • Xodis

          I didn’t see that, good to know

        • Farseerer

          They excluded Dark Eldar as well

        • Lord Elpus

          Thousand sons.

          • euansmith

            😀 😀 😀

      • AircoolUK

        I think it will be more like the Hero Phase. Dark Elder aren’t going to have psychic powers, but are bound to have other options.

        However, perhaps the psychic phase will be separate because there might be a phase for command point abilities which aren’t activated in any other phase.

        • Xodis

          The example given to us was using Command points for a reroll on a desperate shot, so I think those will be usable anytime in the game.

      • Spacefrisian

        Dark Eldar psychic powers, about time.

    • kloosterboer

      Personally, I prefer random. Especially if every psyker gets the ” smite” power as well.

      • Karru

        The randomness of powers is very annoying mechanic in my opinion. It mostly boils down to lack of strategic depth choosing would bring. If the powers gave you assistance in certain aspects, like lets say help your Reserves come in quicker, you’d know that you could try to take more reserves to try to outflank the enemy. If they are random however, one should never base any strategy on them. It will be way too unreliable to get them right.

        • SprinkKnoT

          There’s also the fact that there’s never a world where all powers on a chart are equivalent in usefulness for an army, so game-to-game a psykers usefulness varies wildly.

          • Karru

            Exactly. Some powers are more useful than others in certain situations. This is why them being random is extremely bad for design as you aren’t as interested in taking them if you know you won’t be needing them or they are so situational that preparing for it would be very risky.

          • Heinz Fiction

            Even if all powers were equally strong, I firmly believe that it’s never a good idea to substitute an interesting tactical choice by a random dice roll.

            But maybe that’s just because I come from a strategy gaming background. Maybe some people out there enjoy chance more than choices…?

          • orionburn

            And it always sucks when you end up with a power that is virtually useless for the entire game. I’d even take buying your psychic powers (in points) to be able to custom tailor your abilities for a game.

        • euansmith

          Amen. Losing because you screwed up your choice is always preferable to losing because you rolled a “5” instead of a “4” on some table 😀

        • Koonitz

          As an Iron Hands successor chapter player, I can say with significant scientific backing that:

          I have no idea how effective Endurance would be when manifest on a unit with +1 to existing Feel No Pain rolls.

          But I can say that hemorrhage is a COMPLETELY USELESS POWER!

          Not once did I successfully roll Endurance on any psyker I brought, despite always rolling biomancy. I got hemorrhage multiple times.

        • AircoolUK

          AoS might have earned a reputation for adding in more ‘random’, but a lot of those random tables allow you to choose what you want instead. So I doubt random powers will be a thing anymore as it’s a pretty crummy rule to begin with.

      • silashand

        I have despised random generation of magic spells/psychic powers ever since I started playing WFB and 40K 20+ years ago. Worst mechanic in the game if you ask me and wholly inappropriate by every measure I can think of. Really? A psyker who goes to battle not knowing what his role is until he shows up at the battlefield? Absolutely idiotic.

        • kloosterboer

          Well, from a gameplay mechanic…I can see why you’d dislike the frustration of not being totally in control of what your points are buying. It doesn’t bother me or my group. We actually prefer it.

          From a narrative standpoint? ” …umm…General? The good news is, the psyker support you requested has arrived. That bad news? ummm….he’s all that was available. “

        • PGConley

          Same, the only Psykers I used on a regular basis were Grey Knights and the Inquistor Hector Rex, because they all know the same 3 powers haha. I also despise how force is a power that can be denied, that should have been different.

      • Dan Wilson

        In AoS the magic is optional, you can choose what you want or if you want more limitation/challenge, opt to use a d6 selection.

        • euansmith

          Fingers crossed that comes over to 40k.

          It could make a fun complication to a scenario to have the Warp be in flux over the battlefield, and so powers have to be rolled for.

          Fun for a scenario, but not for an entire game system 😉

        • AircoolUK

          Yep, there are a ton of those types of tables for all sorts of abilities where you can just choose what you want instead of rolling for it.

    • Karru

      I personally enjoyed the way WHFB did the Magic Phase, to a certain point. Then again, I always preferred “low” point games so you didn’t have a handful of Lvl 4 wizards running around, having tons of dice to roll.

      • Heinz Fiction

        In WHFB the magic phase had it’s place because
        a) (almost) all armies could participate in a meaningful way and
        b) the shooting phase was usually much shorter than in 40k to compensate for it

        • Karru

          It was also better designed right out of the gate. Even without Wizards, in 8th edition you could protect yourself from spells. You got the highest dice of the two your opponent rolled to use as your Dispel dice. All you had to do in order to stop an enemy spell was roll higher than he did with your dice in order to counter it.

          You could stop any critical spell unless the opponent felt lucky and/or suicidal and rolled loads of dice in order to cast it with Irresistible Force, which meant rolling on the Miscast table, which was pretty deadly to the caster.

          Overall, it was way better in design than the current 40k one. Psychic should have never been a Phase in my opinion. It should have remained the same it was in 5th. Like an ability you just rolled an Ld Check for.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            God I really hated 8th Magic, but yeah it was so much better than the psychic phase now.

    • Calgar

      I agree on random powers sucking. That was pretty much when I stopped using psychic altogether. I hate taking models to battle that I don’t know what they are capable of still the game starts.

      That mechanic is what led to psyker spam in the first place. If you want to get invisibility you are going to need at least two or three guys to maximize your chances at rolling it.

  • Defenestratus

    Mortal wounds eh?

    My wraithcannons are waiting with anxious anticipation 😀

    • Dyemor

      With all the promises of playtesting and balance I hope you get to pay 100pts per Cannon 🙂

    • No-one Special

      I was more curious about the D-Scythes, what with the flamers now work – D6 mortal wounds each??

      • Karru

        Maybe D3?

      • I can see them going to D6 mortal wounds each because they are flamers and flamers normally do D6 hits.

        I can also see them saying that it is S4 and -2 rend or something and 6s to wound are mortal wounds.

        • ZeeLobby

          OK. I’m still confused here. So flamers get d6 HITS right??? So it’s possible they might only do mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of 6? Or do mortal wounds skip wounding?

          • Xodis

            Mortal wounds are usually something special that requires no wound roll in AoS.

          • ZeeLobby

            Ah, that’s unfortunate. Well if it’s everywhere I”m assuming the 2 hour 1500 pt games are just that fast because everything dies instantly. All based on d6 random rolls.

          • Xodis

            Hopefully it wont be everywhere. Even though Smite is pretty powerful its limited to closest unit and random d3 number, so maybe most of the Mortal Wounds are pretty limited in abilities.

          • ZeeLobby

            Was talking more if D weapons went that way

          • Xodis

            I think D weapons will just be High Strength with High AP modifiers. Otherwise even the superheavy tanks wouldn’t get their save and they probably should.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I don’t think D weapons will deal Mortal Wounds by default. They will probably just have High Strength, Good AP and good Damage.

          • AEZ

            It’s not true. In magic it’s usually just wounds.. In melee and shooting there are mortal wounds in different situations, some after hitting, others after rolling a 6+ at hit or wound rolls.

          • AircoolUK

            …and sometimes no hit roll either.

        • Xodis

          I think your second option will probably be the most likely. D6 mortal wounds better be EXPENSIVE and fragile.

          • AircoolUK

            D weapons don’t exist anymore because each weapon/power etc.. will have its own individual profile.

            That’s the advantage of not having USR’s and all that nonsense. As each unit has their own rules on the data sheet, there’s no need to try and use blanket special rules.

            So as there’s no D weapons anymore, each unit or weapon chosen for that unit will have its own individual rules.

      • TexBlade

        Flamers do D6 hits, not wounds.

  • Xodis

    Not happy with having a Psychic phase still, by implementing a “Command Phase” I can’t think of any power that wouldn’t fit into all the other phases. Command, Move, Shoot, Melee…..where else could something fit?

    Also it was confirmed on FB that the Psychic phase is after movement, in case anyone thought otherwise.

    • Karru

      I mean, Psychic Phase could just be the Command Phase of 40k. I highly doubt that there will be dozens of “powers” that are triggered in the Command Phase like there are in AoS. Instead, they just stick the Psychic Phase in there instead of having a “Command Phase” that is almost completely focused on Psychic Powers.

      • Xodis

        That seems odd if they planned on having psychic powers that worked before the Psychic phase like during the movement phase. Even running is suppose to be during the movement phase this edition.

        • euansmith

          Psychic Movement Powers could allow an extra move in the Psychic Phase; like the way that you can get abilities in AoS that allow movement in the Hero Phase.

  • artty

    yeah, being a tau player. I’m interested to see how my shooting phase/mobility will balance without having a psyker phase. I don’t like the idea of mortal wounds, but I’ll have to wait and see!

    • Xodis

      TAU might not have psykers but supposedly something to do to utilize the psychic phase.

      • artty

        that would be interesting. I don’t mind not having a psyker phase. one less thing to remember, hah. But, I do think there are some major balance concerns that could come up, and we’ve seen. Look at Eldar. Tau are great at shooting, but squishy and no psyker, so you have things to exploit. Eldar are great at shooting, pretty good in melee, and have great psykers. Thus, the Eldar player in my group was banned! haha

        • euansmith

          The points “should” reflect the tabletop abilities of the units, so Eldar should be an expensive elite force. 😉

      • Blinghop

        This could easily be where the ethereal does the invocation of the elements or whatever it becomes if it still exists.

        • generalchaos34

          they might do something like how priests operate in AoS. You make a “prayer” and on a 3+ or 4+ the power happens (and usually its close to how a spell operates) and on a 1 you take a wound

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        probably work like Stormcast with their ethereals having a basic prayer (3+ on 1 dice) and then access to 6 more in the codex.

    • Sicxpence

      This is one of my concerns too, especially as a new Tau player. I’m hoping that some of the more advanced weapons (well compared to bolters etc anyway) deal mortal wounds.

      • artty

        if a space marine bolter is AP -0 then I think it makes sense for them to be AP -1 or something. I’m ok if people get an AS, but from a fluff stand point, we are pretty much shooting hunks of plasma at peeps. Should have some sort of armor Pen ability.

        • Munn

          I’d put money on it being better strength/range than on rend. Rend in practice is execptionally powerful and should be doled out sparingly.

          • AircoolUK

            I doubt rend will exist in the new rules. Each weapon will have its own profile and rules, such as causing a mortal wound on a natural to-wound roll of six, or ignoring armour saves etc…

      • Maitre Lord Ironfist

        i looks like somekind of a replacer for Instand Death, wich i never liked.

        It is still a better mechanic then just killig stuff ,because. The 1d3 will kill most 2W Models.

        I like this a lot. Looks like my Canoness gets better 🙂

      • AircoolUK

        Something like the Onager Gauntlet would probably cause multiple mortal wounds

        Certain units may have some sort of ‘terror’ attack (for example – not to be confused with the terror usr) that may cause mortal wounds if the target fails a leadership test – the number of mortal wounds caused being equal to the amount the test was failed.

        It doesn’t have to be a ‘terror’ attack, it could be just a bad smell, or a huge explosion that causes random mortal wounds to any unit nearby.

    • AircoolUK

      Mortal Wounds aren’t limited to psychic powers. Some weapons or special abilities will cause them. Some will have to hit roll and/or to wound rolls, some won’t.

  • BaronVonYoloing

    Hhm. I know its a teaser but I still need more info. Only main question I need to know is summoning going to work on the Age of Sigmar model? (I.E. going to be a form of bringing in deep striking stuff.) It would curtail a lot of shenanigans that seem to be exploited at the moment. Looking at you brown daemon army showcased earlier this year!

    • Karru

      I just hope they won’t make it useless like it is in AoS. AoS Summoning was broken AF on launch, but the GHB hit it way too hard. I’ve yet to see anyone use summoning due to the high risk and low reward it gives. Some have tried to defend it with things like “it allows you to adapt to your opponent as you can just assign a set number of points to counter what your opponent brings”. First of all, its AoS, your opponents army hardly matters. Focus on maximising wounds inflicted and having enough bodies to be able to sustain damage and you’ll do fine. A handful of Warmachines is enough to snipe the Necromancers and other casters from the field before you can even attempt to summon anything.

      • SprinkKnoT

        I’m personally hoping for “Summoning is unrestricted, but you can never have more points on the field than what is allowed for the point limit”. So summoning is for refilling your army rather than flooding the board.

        • Karru

          That could work. It still should limited though. One shouldn’t be able to bring in 3 Bloodthirsters just because he is down in points in the last few turns.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I dislike any mechanic that gives people lots of new units for free. Even a handful is kind of unfair, really. It is why Summoning is so incredibly difficult to balance.

            We all want Daemons summoning hordes but at the same time we also want to give the opponent a fair chance to win.

          • Karru

            Summoning is nice if the units, or rather the armies, are balanced around the mechanic. A unit of Daemons is expensive, but the effectiveness might not be what you’d expect. If the army is balanced around the idea of bringing in more units as the game progresses, it isn’t as bad.

            I am against summoning entire armies however. A single unit of Bloodletters isn’t exactly game breaking, even if you attempt to do it every turn in a 6 turn game. If your opponent allows you to summon all those turns, they deserve it.

            All they have to do really is to make it so you can attempt to summon once per turn, limit the units that can be brought to basic line infantry or very small elite units and give it pretty limited range. This makes sure that one cannot summon entire armies during the game, you cannot hunker down behind a building near your table edge and bring in units right on top of your enemy and you can’t completely rely on bringing all your expensive elite units through Summoning.

            Making it hard to cast would be boon too. 8 or even 9 would be a nice way to make it difficult to cast, making it more of a support decision and not a game changer.

          • Reven

            I always enjoyed the Tyranid summoning, waves of gaunts spilling into my lines as I try to kill the right targets for the backlash and cause the little guys to lose control.

          • Karru

            It was one oft the good ways to do “summoning”. Gaunts were very weak and there was risk involved with it. If you rolled “badly”, you stopped spawning altogether. Tervigons were quite pricey and didn’t add much to the army beyond the spawning. It was a Monster, yes, but pretty weak one.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I dislike any mechanic that gives people lots of new units for free. Even a handful is kind of unfair, really. It is why Summoning is so incredibly difficult to balance.

            We all want Daemons summoning hordes but at the same time we also want to give the opponent a fair chance to win.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          No thank you.

          • SprinkKnoT

            I guess it entirely depends on whether or not summonable units are good for their points. If you’re paying a summon tax, it ends up being a wash for the most part. Regardless, it’s better than the current T1 pink horror-> pink horror-> pink horror -> pink horror -> bloodthirster.

          • Munn

            Generally I find that people who want more out of summoning are people who either are people who want their armies to be stronger for free. It’s been shown in AoS that even a 25% discount being offered for summoning, even while having to maintain a ‘summoning pool’ ends up with summoning armies being 8 out of the top 10.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      I hope summoning is not part of the game.

    • AircoolUK

      In points games you have to set aside points for summoning, and the value of whatever you summon is taken from that points pool.

  • Fergie0044

    Note that you cannot choose a target for smite – its the closest unit within 18″. Adds an extra layer to it. Hopefully all part of making unit placement and movement more tactical now that we’ve lost templates.

    • BaronVonYoloing

      Good catch! Didn’t see that before. My noble Gants have a use in my army again!

      • euansmith

        “That human protein sack is looking at me funny. UNLEASH THE GANTS!”

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          you activated my trap Card.
          Guardsmen will intercept but with this Trap “Send in Moar Men” i will destroi your evil plans!

    • ZeeLobby

      good point.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Closest ENEMY unit. Kind of forces you to play aggressive if you’re going to try to rely on Smite to carry your list. Seer Council is going to be a trap, if it still exists.

      • AircoolUK

        Those universal spells tend to be for situations where whatever spell/power you have chosen can’t be used, doesn’t need to be used or there’s just no point in using it. It’s something to fall back on to prevent casters wasting their magic phase if it’s not appropriate to use any of their other powers.

  • Ronin

    I look forward to all the ebay and craigslist postings.

    • Karru

      All those cheap Daemon Hordes that people want to get rid off after their Summoning is removed.

  • Karru

    Part of me is very disappointed with this. If this goes the way of AoS completely, where the amount of spells are very limited and usually repetitive within armies with most Casters only having one or possibly two powers to use beyond those found in the book. Then there is the “unreliability” of the casting itself. 2D6 and possibly no bonuses like the situation in AoS goes for the most part, taking Psykers won’t be the greatest option, even if you have loads of them. 2D6 and trying to beat the result is somewhat problematic and on top of that you have to hope that your opponent doesn’t roll well to deny it.

    This was necessary though. The current Psychic Phase is a joke. You go big or you go home. If you go big, your army will dominate the game with Psychic Powers with Invincibility and Summoned units with your opponent getting nothing in return.

    I’d personally would have preferred the 5th edition route of straight up Ld check and if the enemy had the right tools, they could attempt to deny it with a roll off. Also the selection of powers might be a lot better. Of course, they did mention that there will be Psychic Lores for each faction, it will boil down to the amount though. If they only have a handful, say around 4, it won’t be that interesting. Now if they gave something that was closer to 10, then we are in business.

    Finally, I don’t like the inclusion of Mortal Wounds. I’ve already seen what happens once you start stacking them in AoS. It’s not pretty and not that hard. Even D3 Mortal Wounds can be threatening and I am worried they will continue to hand these out like candy.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Hopefully they will give some armies (probably Dark Eldar) a mortal wound focus, and others less access to them.

    • SprinkKnoT

      AoS has tons of casting bonuses; there’s even a terrain that grants you +1. All of the heavier magic armies all have ways to get bonuses, one way or another. Also a 5 on 2d6 is anything but unreliable. And the deny the witch check is just the equivalent of a save against a shooting attack.

      • AircoolUK

        Yeah, there’s a ton of stuff that can be going on, and of course some spells are quite reliable whereas other (such as skaven instantly winning the game) are impossible unless you cheat (which was the whole point of that spell, yet people completely misunderstood the humour behind it).

    • euansmith

      Smite only needs a 5+ on 2D6, so it has an 83% chance of going off. Maybe other casting rolls will be in the same ballpark. Low enough to be reliable, but not too reliable; apart from Invisibility with a casting roll of 13+ 😉

      • Karru

        I was mostly referring to other powers that will most likely be closer to 7 or 8, basically powers that might add something major into your army. Then you have the problem of your opponent having the option to deny it. We’ll just have to wait and see how the powers are when the edition drops.

        • AircoolUK

          That comes down to poker magic… using one spell that forces the enemy to attempt to nullify it before unleashing the spell you really wanted to use.

  • Jabberwokk

    My Maleceptors and Zoanthropes are ready.

    • ZeeLobby

      YEAH BABY! It’s torture because I want to go buy some, but the whole army could be total trash… THE AGONY!

      • euansmith

        They are cool models though.

        • ZeeLobby

          I have too many cool models, haha. I want models I can have a fun game with too 😀

      • Jabberwokk

        Gunna have to be patient.

        Also Love the buthurt about Frontline’s, Adepticon’s and Nova’s involvement.

        Just. love it.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. So glad it was them, and not a bunch of fun-gunners, lol. At the same time, I don’t really consider them competitive experts, I’ve seen some of those crew say some crazy things about units. But in the end it’s better than just a bunch of randos.

          • Jabberwokk

            There the guys who know the competitive experts. It’s no coincidence we see the same names in the top 20 year in, year out.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh, no doubt. It’s usually the same guys. All of this is great news imo.

  • ZeeLobby

    Without knowing any of these psychic powers beyond one, I really can’t pass any judgement yet. I guess if you could spam Smite repeatedly it might be pretty OP.

    • euansmith

      In AoS each “spell” can only be cast once per turn per army. Maybe 8th will have a similar mechanism to promote armies using a spread of disciplines?

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        I am betting this restriction is going to be in place.

        • euansmith

          I’m hoping so, as forcing people to make choices and try different things is a positive.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Yes. Spam is bad.

    • AircoolUK

      The AoS version of Smite only needs a 5+, and that doesn’t have the bonus damage option. Even if you did fire it off every round, it’s hardly OP, especially when you consider the massive amounts of damage some models can take, and some units , such as Bonesplitterz Orcs can save against mortal wounds on a 6+. If you pick a certain allegiance Keyword for those Orcs, they can even re-roll those saves.

      With USR’s being scrapped, strengths and weaknesses can be tailored individually when balancing units. The example here being Mortal Wounds… they might be powerful, but units that need to mitigate them can do so in many ways, such as having a massive wound stat, or in the case of lowly Savage Orcs, just dabbing a bit of blue paint on themselves and getting a lucky dice roll.

  • uatu13

    So 40K is just becoming Sigmar In Space then?

    • ZeeLobby

      been heading that way for a while. It’s an interesting mix.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      This is literally what we had in 5th edition, just with more granularity,

      • Severius_Tolluck

        Yes and no, it was a leadership test followed, and then treated followed by whatever further rolls were needed. So now, its not quite the leadership test as the spells go off their assigned number so long as you probably don’t roll double 1’s. Similliar vein, but a variable roll now that isn’t tied to your leadership.

        • euansmith

          I think that, since disciplines are specific to your force, then the casting roll is effectively your Leadership roll; it is the number someone from your faction needs to roll in order to invoke that power.

          Now your Leadership roll could be altered by buffs and debuffs, but you still only had one target number regardless off the discipline you were casting.

          Such positive and negative modification to the casting number might be a thing in 8th, and the casting number (hopefully) reflects the utility of the discipline.

          • generalchaos34

            in AoS it literally says in the power “you must roll a 7 or greater to cast this power” it has nothing to do wither leadership AT ALL. The charge value is set per individual spell, so the more powerful the spell the higher the number to make it happen.

          • euansmith

            Indeed, the point I was failing to make is that, Leadership was the “casting number” before, and was based on your Faction; while the new casting numbers also reflect your Faction, only better 😉

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Exactly. Ld was your casting value and it was the same for every spell. Now there is more granularity, so powerful spells will be harder to cast and simpler spells will be easier to cast.

          • euansmith

            Now why didn’t I say that?! Simple and concise.

          • AircoolUK

            …and also, factions that excel in psychic powers might have a lower casting value for powerful powers if that faction (or sub faction etc… usually based on Keywords) relies on psychic powers a lot or has the fluff to support it.

          • AircoolUK

            Yep. Two units from totally different factions could have a spell that functions in exactly the same way, but the casting roll may be higher for one faction than the other. It’s another way that units are balanced. If the roll needs to be higher, there’s no need to go messing around with the stat line or changing USR’s. You just change the number on the datasheet.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Exactly. Some spells are easy and weaker and may have a lower cast value, and some higher.

  • The problem with random abilities is of course you cannot optimize or min/max properly since you don’t know what ability you’re going to get, and your power coefficient values will vary.

    The problem with abiliites you can choose is that in every gw game there are say 10 powers and 1 is so OP and busted that you’ll only ever see that ability used all the time by the vast majority of your opponents if they can choose it.

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean hopefully they’ve playtested and rebalance them to allow the choice. You don’t necessarily want to randomly have any power, but you’d like to have to make a tough choice between 3/4.

      • thats always the hope, but never the outcome so my skepticism would be too high to allow me to want that.

        However in AOS you can indeed pick your extra power and command traits.

        • davepak

          They said this is the most well play tested version of 40k ever – look at the posts by mike brandt talking it – as a person who plays broken armies (my necrons are too good now, and my nids still suck) I had a lot of skepticism – but this is started to look really good.

  • Keith Wilson

    Psychic phase is now a cut/paste of AoS magic …. very disappointing

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Which is basically what we had before in 5th edition.

    • generalchaos34

      I dont see the problem, casters get to cast their spells, positioning will actually be something that we will have to pay attention to, other casters will have an ACTUAL CHANCE to stop the spell, and we get to cast more spells. Plus to top it off the phase is sped up about 100 times faster

    • Parthis

      Only with Perils.

      Sorry you’re disappointed, personally though, this is great.

      It works. 40K’s current psychic phase is game-breaking, uninvolved and random.

    • davepak

      out of curiosity why? I think its pretty cool.
      So far, it looks like an evolved version of AOS, is that really a bad thing?

  • Ravingbantha

    While I agree that the psychic phase needed help to speed it up, I’m concerned we are about to loose a lot of variety in what psychic powers there are. As for getting rid of ‘psychic batteries’ that’s something we’ve seen in countless stories, a chief psyker drawing power from his minions. Not sure if this is going to make psyker heavy lists more or less powerfull

    • AircoolUK

      They should neither be more nor less powerful when all other factors are considered.

      • Ravingbantha

        That depends on how all the rues really pay out. But right now, it looks like psykers may get a boost. From the sound of things, every psyker will have a number of powers equal to their level, plus one (smite), very rarely is a player in a position to attempt to cast all the powers they have (success rates aside). But with this, every psyker looks to be able to attempt to manifest all their powers in a turn.

        In my Thousand Sons army, I’ve played the Rheti War Sect in a couple of games. On average I have 7 psykers (6 lvl 3’s and Magnus at LvL 5), with a total of 23 Psychic levels, even with a good D6 roll, I rarely am able to cast (again, not looking at success rates) much more than 15 powers a turn. But with these changes, it looks like I’ll be doubling the number of powers I can attempt a turn, 23 levels plus each psyker knows Smite, thus 30 known powers and a chance to manifest all 30.

  • BurpinforDayz

    What I wanna know is: Grey Knights?

  • nurglitch

    If that’s Smite, what do you think Warp Blast is going to be?

    • Djbz

      I think smite is most witchfire powers combined into one effect.
      d3/d6 wounds with no saves would be what I’d expect warp blast to do.

      • Koonitz

        This may be manipulatable in the event 40k retains the same rule AoS has where you can only manifest a single power once per turn. If you can only manifest Smite once, a psyker who has another power that does the same thing can enable you to, effectively, cast the power twice.

        • Djbz

          Yeah maybe.
          I’m not keen on the idea of only being able to use any power once per turn though (It just seems silly to me that if one psyker blasts lightning at the enemy that no other one could.)
          So long as the detachments don’t allow excessive psyker spam (and psykers are appropriately costed)I don’t see smite spam being too deadly against non-death star units with reasonable model counts.

      • nurglitch

        I’d expect Warp Blast to be aimed, and to have some anti-vehicle effect. Given what they’ve said about key-wording I’m expecting to see something like 2D6 mortal wounds vs vehicles or what not.

  • Theik

    Why are people so surprised about all these new “OMG BREAKING NEWS” rules? Everything is just copy pasta age of sigmar rules, it’s not breaking anything. Just read the age of sigmar rules and you know basically everything you need to know.

    • Orblivion

      Not everyone plays both games. This is all new to people who only play 40k.

    • AircoolUK

      Pretty much, although you won’t really appreciate the way the rules work unless you’ve got a lot of the sourcebooks to compare different armies, their powers, organisation variations and synergies.

      It’s the warscrolls that do all the heavy lifting when it comes to the crunch. Four pages of rules might seem like a joke to some people, but it works like a treat for AoS as all the detail and interactions are written on each warscroll.

      The Warscroll and Keyword system is pretty tight, allowing for a lot of depth but without the confusion and confliction that has bloated Warhammer for a few decades now.

  • Lyca Atteneder

    Well ‘new’ is relative… reminds me a bit of the old psychic abilities around 2002: pass a Leadership check and go for it, or Mordheim or… well AoS ^^
    I think it’s ok though

  • Nesred22 .

    Haven’t played 40k in forever. Can you currently or will you be able to “build up” your energy over time in some way to give you a better chance of casting a difficult power?

  • Talos2

    The card system in 2nd remains my favourite. It worked, the joy of drawing the ultimate power card was a game highlight and it was just a nice change of pace to the rest of the game. But hey, we’re not getting that, hopefully this will be good too

  • AircoolUK

    Likely the Psychic Phase is the same as AoS Hero Phase. There’ll probably be a power similar to AoS Mystic Shield as Smite is the same as AoS Arcane Bolt except with the bonus damage for a higher roll.

    Even though Mortal Wounds ignore all saves (and often hit/wound rolls), certain units can often have a saving throw against Mortal Wounds, but that will be one of the special rules on the unit datasheet or formation datasheet.

  • piglette

    I hate psychic powers.

  • AEZ

    The thing people forget that D3 mortal wounds would be nasty again vehicles with 4 hull points and would slaughter 1 wound termed. . Now termed will still not like them.. but with increased wounds it’s not that bad for tanks and hordes won’t mind much either.

  • Thomas

    This is one of the few aspects of 40k that I’m happy to see go the AoS route. The psychic phase in 7th was just garbage-tier stuff that involved ludicrous book-keeping and ended up bogging down the game vs psyker-heavy armies.

    The idea of just rolling a couple of dice to get a score is much better imo. No more pools of dozens of warp charges. Hopefully they’ll tone down psychic powers a bit too.

  • MechBattler

    Soooooooo…. casting powers is going back to the equivalent of the immensely easier leadership test?