40K: The Knights Are Here To Play

Games Workshop takes another look at a faction and this time it’s all about the mighty Imperial Knights!

After the vehicle teaser, the Q&A yesterday and the Close Combat Weapon reveal today, I know I was starting to wonder how exactly walkers were going to fit in the new edition. Following that train of thought, I began to wonder about how Knights (aka Big Walkers) were going to work as well. Looks like GW read my mind because they have a new preview and it’s all about those Imperial Knights!

via Warhammer Community

“Imperial Knights have been given a LOT of wounds. And by a lot, I mean 24! They’re also Toughness 8 with a 3+ save. They’re quite literally twice as durable as a Leman Russ which is itself a difficult unit to take down. Add in the inclusion of a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting – regardless of which direction the shots are fired from, thanks to their ion shield – and you’ve got a resoundingly resilient unit.”

  • 24 Wounds
  • Tough 8
  • 3+ armor save
  • 5+ invulnerable save vs shooting – from any direction (ion shield)
  • twice as durable as a Leman Russ

Right off the bat we can tell Knights are going to be a TOUGH cookie to crack – but now folks won’t need to cater a list to crack that tough armored shell – “Everything can hurt everything” so even those lowly guardsmen with Lasguns have a shot at putting wounds on the Knight…hey, desperate times, right? But how about that stat line:

Ahhh now we get to see how the new Damage table will look and function. It’s pretty much like we all assumed – as the Knight takes damage, it’s movement drops, it’s WS drops and so does it’s ability to hit targets. It doesn’t appear to lose attacks, it’s just that it’s weapons down work quite as well. Speaking of weapons:

“The thermal cannon is utterly lethal now. Heavy D3, Strength 9, Ap -4 and D6 Damage, rolling 2D6 and taking the highest when in half range…If that weren’t enough, the cannon gets D6 shots vs units with 5 or more models.”

Well that certainly is interesting! Here we have a heavy weapon that actually gets more shots the larger the unit…That’s pretty cool. I wonder what other types of weapons might also get that type of a bonus. Oh, and it’s AP -4! That’s pretty deadly – I like it!

Read The Full Article HERE

Stomps have been re-worked. They are now called “Titanic Feet” and it sounds like the are still deadly – but we don’t have any solid info to stand on. The Thunderstrike Gauntlet is also a flat 6 wounds just like the Reaper Chainsword. However, it’s got a special rule that allows it to throw a destroyed Monster or Vehicle at another enemy unit 9″ away causing D3 Mortal Wounds – get ready to DUCK!

If you’re planning on running multiple Knights then you’ll be happy to know there is a Detachment for you. The Super-Heavy Detachment lets you field 3-5 Lords of War – YIKES!

There were also a couple other teasers in the article:

  • Trygons will have multiple D6 Damage melee attacks – “can severely damage or destroy Knights in a single lucky round of combat.”
  • Knights will be able to “simply walk over Infantry models and leave [close] combat”
  • Knights can disengage from Close Combat (at least with Infantry) and they will be able to shoot their weapons – no more tar-pitting them with throw-away units

So if a Trygon could theoretically destroy a Knight in a lucky round of combat and they have a D6 damage attack, that means they would need enough attacks to do at least 24 wounds, right? My Tyranids are cheering already!

 

So what do you think of the Imperial Knights – 24 wounds is a lot to deal with!

  • uatu13

    Blasts and Large Blasts have been completely screwed in 8th. Overall I think the edition could be fun, but everything I see about weapons that used to use templates is depressing.

    • Karru

      Yeah, I mean, I can still see use for Flamers purely because they cause hits instead of getting just shots, but Blasts are utterly useless now.

      • orionburn

        Why do you think former blast weapons are useless now? I don’t see that much difference between a blast scattering and hitting nothing compared to rolling a 1 on the number of hits a blast cannon may get. Let’s just say you roll a 3 for number of hits, make 2 of them, which then does D3 wounds each. Granted you may only end up landing 2 wounds, or you could get 6. I guess with the math I don’t see that big of a difference.

        • Karru

          Well, my Large Blasts usually averaged around 4-8 hits depending on the unit I shot at. Now the Battle Cannon for example is D6 SHOTS, which then requires a roll to hit. This means that a Leman Russ will average 2 hits per shot, which is definitely very, very bad.

          Someone did the math already a while back when the Battle Cannon was revealed. It is now one of the worst weapons Imperial Guard has, as it averages around 2 wounds after all is said and done, including the “extra” damage.

          • Muninwing

            see… it’s not keeping in mind the scatter dice.

            a scatter was 2/3 of the shots. and while sometimes they were advantageous, sometimes they weren’t. if you cross out all the times that a blast hit another enemy unit in exchange for lost the ability to hit your own units, suddenly it’s about more even.

            then look at at distance. 2d6-BS of scatter means an average of 4″ off target. that could result in 1-2 hits, or it could mean landing in a target-rich environment, so it’s hard to predict. but it’s rarely going to be as many models as you had wanted to hit initially.

            i think d6 is a good middle ground between more and none.

            i always saw the potential for great large blast shots. i almost always scattered when it mattered. often, i got nothing out of the deal. so as much as i could make the case for 3D3 instead of 1D6, if you average all of my misses into the mix, it’s closer to what we are getting.

          • Randy Randalman

            We also have to keep in mind that, if something is OP or UP, GW is going to respond frequently to feedback (based on real observational data, not whining about someone’s pet unit), and yearly tweaks.

            Furthermore, we have hardly seen even 2% of all weapons, so “one of the worst weapons IG has” was an unfounded exaggeration.

            No more centering a template over a single model, arguing about it, then removing casualties from the front anyway; no scattering onto nothing, or your own stuff, or onto something you can’t even hurt.

            It’s quicker, cleaner, more efficient, and every bit as effective without any risk to your own stuff whatsoever. Better, better, better, and better.

          • Warboss_Stalin

            Worrying if you should take that Danger-Close shot was half the fun of using massive weapons….your decision making is being sanitized.

          • Karru

            Ah yes, averaging 1 wounding hit against any target is definitely better than before.

          • Karru

            For real though, they should have done new blasts like this:

            You roll to hit with the BS of the model once. If you hit, you cause D6 hits (in the case of the Battle Cannon). If you missed, you rolled D6 shots and then rolled to hit with them. To me, this would have been much more “realistic” as it would have reflected two things. A direct hit would cause massive damage to anything from Infantry to Tanks. If it didn’t land right in the middle of the enemy, the shrapnel from the explosion could still hit something.

          • Philip Estabrook

            No, large blast templates did not average 4-8 hits. Either your opponents were absolutely horrible at setting up infantry units AND you never rolled a scatter result or you are exaggerating.

            Now I will agree that the new model is less effective against infantry than the template style, but the shots are far more potent versus vehicles now. honestly, the tank shots are probably much better reflective of an actual tank round under 8th compared to 7th.

          • Karru

            Out of interest, have you looked at the math at all? You are looking at around 2 wounds (after damage roll) “at best” per Battle Cannon at any target. D6 shots, with Guard BS that averages to 2 hits. After that you roll to wound on a 4+/3+/2+ depending on the target and it “suffers” -2 to its save. Against a vehicle with a 3+ save, you are looking at a 5+ save still. After that, you are getting a “massive” D3 damage to it. Overall, the Battle Cannon is in a worse position than it was before.

            In 7th edition, you had potential to disable an enemy tank with the Battle Cannon, as you got Strength 8 and rolled two dice for Pen, picking the highest. Even Stunning the vehicle was nice. Now it does… nothing.

          • Calgar

            Large Blasts would only get that many hits against a careless opponent. Spacing models properly, a large blast is gonna hit 4 at most. This way saves lots of time in a game, since you dont have to measure 2 inches per model in every unit.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            that potential to do a lot of damage to a unit closely packed in the open added a huge load of tactics to the game. If you knew there was a battlecannon with line of sight to your unit, you had better keep that unit in cover and spaced out. This meant battlecannons and other blasts could dictate where your opponent could put their minis, defending lanes of fire etc. Since there are lots of times units were forced to clump up (after a combat if they rolled low to consolidate, deep striking, if squeezing between terrain, disembarking, after tank shock etc etc) some of which the other player has a hand in, this added tactics.

            Now all that depth is replaced with a d6 roll. Great.

          • Talos2

            No risk of taking your own stuff out though

          • Karru

            Neither harming your enemy either.

        • uatu13

          Because they went from being able to hit a huge amount of models, not basically hitting almost nothing.

          They did the same thing with Age Of Sigmar to all weapons that used templates, and most them are trash now. A battle cannon is basically a bad sniper weapon, not a way to take out hordes of guys.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            I dunno, I average way more damage from some of my weapons in AoS . That being said of course blast was going to be nasty in fantasy because of rank and file.

          • Scatter 667

            i don’t know exactly how you come to your conclusions, because we only know bits of the new rules now, and actually they show much more changes and variety than expected. We also only have a few profiles and the wast majority hasn’t been revealed yet. I think that the performance can only be judged when all data is here and we can compare models and weapons against each other. The thing is also that some stuff just might change its battle field role but we don’t have the full picture yet;-)

          • uatu13

            Except for the fact that we know how shooting works, know how blasts work, know how rolling to hit works, know how wounding works, know how allocating wounds works, and know how saves work. What “big picture” are you looking for? I don’t need to know how haywire grenades work in order to tell that the damage output from an individual weapon is garbage.

          • Scatter 667

            Actually we don’t know how blasts work, since the new stats for weapons are not consistent across the board but weapon specific. Every weapon seems to be different. And you assume that the rest is known, but you haven’t seen the data sheets, unit and faction special rules and stuff. you simply don’t know if you actually might be allowed to re-roll dice on specific weapons due to rules. we know tiny bits and pieces, but you already know everything. i really don’t get it, seems like the crymarine fever is around again….

          • uatu13

            I think you’re either being blinded by hope or dishonest. We know templates in all shapes and sizes are gone, and that those weapons do a random number of shots, and that everything but flamer template weapons also need to roll to hit, wound, and the opponent needs to get a save. You can keep hoping, some of us have our eyes open and know how math works.

          • Scatter 667

            listen, your blast had to hit and that was far from certain. yes, i know that to hit, to wound and save have to be passed and in addition you might have to roll the damage dice too. and yes i know how math works as well. Im not sure in which backwater swamp you picked up math, but to do the calculation you need to have all the variables. and here we clearly don’t have them! You don’t know the balistic skill you base your calculations on, you don’t know modifiers and re-rolls to them. but obviously its just easier to take what you have and pretend its all thats in the calculations. enjoy and i hope you have enough fingers;-)

          • uatu13

            LOL, what a pathetic troll. Keep ignoring facts and reality, you blind fanboy.

          • Scatter 667

            im not a fan boy, but you attacked me first and i’m telling you we don’t know enough! before that faction special on knights droped, everyone would have called me an idiot if i would have said that knights will be able to throw land raiders across the table. guess what: they can do it now! thats just the last thing i can say to someone how thinks he knows everything before its released! THX for showing how good of a person you are!

          • uatu13

            Kek, well, you seem to be the only one that “doesn’t know enough”. Must be a problem you run into a lot.

          • Ak318

            Having played AoS i can tell you your balst weapons terrible fact is bull. Trebuchets, catapualts and cannons are some of the most devistating weapons in game. Its a reason why the screaming skull is going up in points and thats cause it is too good. Also we dont know how all blast weapons work because in AoS different artillery ork differenly. for example the trebuchet auto hits units above a certain size meaning you have 2 shots wounding on 3s ap -2 d6 damage each, which with bravery is far more units than you expect being taken out by that one weapon. Which is something you have to remember each weapon was partially balanced for the more units you kill the more that will be taken off due to failed bravery rolls.

          • backoos

            they could always throw them, do you even knights bro?

          • EmperorOfMankind

            I think what he was saying is people would probably say they probably wont be able to in 8th even though no one knows very much about 8th yet.

          • EmperorOfMankind

            I was just at a game store there were 2 guys playing 40k and one of them said something like “the online community for this game is really toxic but everybody is nice in person”

          • kingcobra668

            Just quit please.

          • Agreed. My first thought was we don’t know what rules the leman Russ has, nor do we know what orders it will benefit from, nor do we know what sitting an enginseer next to the tank will do. Faction specific orders will play a big part in getting the most out of your units. After seeing the first rank second rank one for the Astra militarum, we may see orders that can double the amount of shots put out by a tank, which would make the leman Russ better.

            Without seeing how the rules work in conjunction with the rest of the rules, it’s like making a judgement call on what a TV station puts on just by watching 30 seconds of it.

            Speeding up play by getting rid of blasts is a good thing, but it no longer punishes players who clump their troops together which is a shame.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            *Looks at Dwarf Cannons*

            Yeah… Useless…

          • uatu13

            Cannons aren’t supposed to be a sniper rifle, and how great would those cannons be if none of the wounds spilled over or couldn’t target characters? That’s what we’re looking at for 8th edition.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            My point. They are too good. The same cannons in 40k would be much more balanced.

          • uatu13

            Cannons are only good with the right character combo, and against a limited unit type which is completely counter to their intended use. I guess we should have blasts in 40K be even more illogical and useless? Yeah..sounds great.

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            Actually, against hordes a volley of arrows (i do not count for Warptastic Boomthingies) is way more effective. Means: The More single attacks the better. Canons should be better to take out Heavy targets. That Gun on the knight agaisnt terminators? They gonna have a bad day. Termis are 5 Guys, yep, 6 shots.

            But on the other hand, i only hit if i use the orbital Strike from celestine and use and Exorcist. Wich is that new way anyway

          • uatu13

            You mean, 5 terminators….D6 shots, need to roll to hit, need to roll to wound, they get saves, and then you need to roll for damage. That one terminator is REALLY scared.

          • Ak318

            That is cause AoS is built on the idea of synergy which is good game design. It adds depth to the game and means list building has a tonne more options than 7th ed has where it is currently you take these set units only these units and half your army is garbage……sounds super fun and varied.

            Also your cannons can target characters if you actually use tactics and amneuvering and plan your phase out well. If you don’t think and just autopilot your game you never will. Again this is a game of strategy, making you think is a good thing.

      • Heinz Fiction

        Actually blast weapons are improved in most situations. Just in the rare case that there actually was a tightly positiond infantry unit worth shooting at, they will be worse.

        • Karru

          Nope, they are worse in basically every situation, except against single targets. First of all, they are shots you are getting, not hits, which makes them very weak for many armies. For example, the Battle Cannon of the Guard averages 2 hits per volley (4 shots on average). On top of that, they have to wound, which again reduces the damage done. Then you have to hope your opponent fails their save, which is only reduced by -2 and most likely improved by +1 from cover. Then you get to roll your damage, which is D3, which averages to 2.

          The problem is that instead of getting automatic hits, you are now getting just shots. This makes them very, very weak in most cases since it seems that 5″ blast equals to D6 or D3 shots. Even if the maximum is rolled, you are still looking at 3-4 hits. My Large Blasts averaged 4-8 hits in 7th edition.

          • Muninwing

            i missed a lot more than you did. that might be the issue.

          • kingcobra668

            Seems more that he remembers all the hits and forgets all the misses

          • MuggaWugga23

            Heard a rumor that maybe order to shoot battlecannon twice. Could help, but reality is its better vs multiwound targets now. No scatter issues makes it more reliable at hurting tougher targets. Remember point balance is also up in the air. Nothing to say it might be one of the cheaper options as well. We really don’t know a whole lot yet.

          • Scatter 667

            wouldn’t be surprised by the order thing. actually i expect a lot of shinanigans like that to be around, which will modify how everything works and will let you utilize synergy. looking forward to taht:-)

          • People remember the misses more. Using a Guard large blast for example, you hit 33% of the time plus any scatter roll of 6 or less (subtracting BS3), which is a hit about 61% of the time. This assumes you centered on a 32mm single target. Against a multiple infantry targets or a vehicle your odds were far better. I don’t think the D6 Battle Cannon is horrible, but the “muh scatter die always missed!” defense is a little short on math.

          • GrenAcid

            It migh be, but my personal exp with Shreders on DE tells me I like new rules, Playing Armoured Company also tells me being able to hit one guy is better than “posibility” of hiting 8…..im not saing its great but it might be not bad.

          • Muninwing

            you clearly haven’t seen my rolls…

            no, i know it’s not equivalent. what i’m saying is that it’s not that far off, or at least not as terrible as many people are acting like it is.

          • Heinz Fiction

            First of all: armor reduction values are not tied to the blast weapon characteristic and therefore off topic.

            What essentially happend is that the template got replaced by a random number of shots. While it was possible to get 6-8 hits with a direct hit from the large blast, 3-5 was probably more common. If you include scatter results, the average was probably much closer to 3. About the small blast: if you happened to hit more than one model you were lucky…

            So all in all the number of hits doesn’t differ all that much. It’s probably a little bit lower in the new edition with the upside that you can score multiple hits on single units as well, greatly increasing the target spectrum of the weapon. I’d take the new version over old any day if not for one thing: it doesn’t force the enemy to spread out anymore wich was to main benefit of taking blast weapons (but with diminishing returns, as a single blast weapon on the field was basically enough to archieve this goal) .

          • Thomas Gilchrist

            if you could reliably hit that many targets on average with a large blast either your opponent was garbage with their spacing or your scatter dice are borderline magical. Assuming BS 4 your only going to hit exactly where you wanted the thing to land a bit over 1/3 of the time anyway. (1/3 chance on scatter die and a roll of 4 or less).

    • Large blast will be D6 shots, right? What will blast be? D3 shots?

      • Karru

        Well, they made the Thermal Cannon a D3, wasn’t it a 5″ blast before?

        • kingcobra668

          And d6 for units over 5 models.

          • Yea, so basically they tried to keep it as good vs. big units, but not totally OP vs other vehicles.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            not very good really. D6 hits (not wounds so you’ll lose some of those too), why will any big unit care about that?

      • orionburn

        Should be given the battle cannon is D6 and was large blast, and the thermal cannon used the small blast.

        Edit: acutally I can’t remember now if the thermal cannon used the large or small blast. I thought it was the 3″ one.

        • uatu13

          It was a 5″ one.

    • Scatter 667

      i think we need a different approach now. I like the way the new edition handles weapons, vehicles and degradation. This enables the differentiation of each weapon seperately instead of putting it into common classes. The frag granate used to be small blast and is now d6 hits, but that doesn’t mean that all former small blast will be like that! this way the balancing can be achieved weapon by weapon and seperate point values can be asigned. i’m happy, since its much more granular and tweakable:-)

    • Ravingbantha

      Until all the rules are released, and all the units are seen, you have no idea how good or bad it’s really going to be. All we have now are little bits here and there.

      • uatu13

        Yeah, little bits that show us how all the rules for blasts are going to work. Nice try though.

        • Ravingbantha

          They’ve shown us all the rules? Not at all, they’ve shown us the basic rules for templates and blast markers, but very little on individual weapons or various units and their rules. Anyone who has played this game knows that a units ability to manipulate or ignore a rule is what really determines how good or bad a rule is.

    • Drpx

      There are no blasts in 8th…

      • He meant the new mechanic for weapons formerly being blast.

        • Drpx

          The Gun Formerly Known as Blast.

    • Sleeplessknight

      I love blast templates and I’m planning on asking my opponents if we can house rule them back into the game so it will be more fun. What’s stopping you from doing the same?

    • Fergie0044

      I really wish we’d see weapons that did something like 3+D3 hits or 1+D2 hits. Still caps them as 6 or 3 respectively but less random than D6 or D3.

    • Calgar

      Im glad to see the blast templates going. A model that we could see as a precursor to this idea was the tyranid Exocrine. It could fire a singe large blast at S7 ap2, or 6 individual shots at S7 ap2. The multiple shots were far superior unless your opponent was careless enough to group the models up. I would have killed for that ability on space marine plasma cannons, just give me 3 shots instead of a small blast.

      The only time blast weapons are good, is when models deepstrike, and then shoot so they cant run and space themselves out. Other than that, blast templates are combersome and time consuming.

    • Tushan

      Exactly. Flamers cant even shoot on deepstrike since DS is 9´away and flamers are 8´ranged.

      Imagine an army like salamanders famed for their flamers when one flamer kills a whooping two orks! Who tf will ever use this worthless weapon now?

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        true.

    • Kinsman

      Balance is the opposite of depressing. If we get balance, I’m happy.

  • I just realized I may need more distort weapons and more meltas. I really wonder what Wraithknights will look like and what kind of damage distort weapons will deal.

    • Karru

      Considering they have been throwing around a lot of the “this weapon deals 6 automatic damage” thing, I have a feeling that Distort Weapons will be doing something similar. Either that, or they just cause Mortal Wounds.

      • Or both – in case of the big ones. On the other hands, the big ones were blast, that’s harsh enough.

  • orionburn

    Given that the battle cannon on a Leman Russ is D6 shots and D3 wounds I wonder if that means we’ll see 2D6 shots from the Knight cannon. Or keep it to D6 shots but do D6 wounds instead.

    Thank the Emperor that Knights can leave close combat now without penalty. Was one of the dumbest things about Knights in 7th.

  • Karru

    Toughness 8 with 24 Wounds with 12 Wounds required to bring that thing down a notch? Yep, definitely balanced, especially as we can expect them to keep these around the 375pts mark.

    On the other hand, Knights will most likely only be usable in CC, unless the other weapon options of the Knight will be more useful. Both the Repeating Battle Cannon and the Thermal Cannon are basically boned thanks to the way Blasts now work. Overall, not happy about this. The Knight should have been at best 18 wounds with power loss every 6 wounds.

    • davepak

      I agree they still sound incredibly good, we will have to see how xenos do in their super heavy options.

      However, the thermal cannon still sounds pretty nasty to me….

      Heavy D3, Strength 9, Ap -4 and D6 Damage, rolling 2D6 and taking the highest when in half range…If that weren’t enough, the cannon gets D6 shots vs units with 5 or more models.

      • Karru

        It’s averaging 1 wounding hit against a target with less than 5 models. Remember, these are still Shots they are getting, so they still have to hit. Even against a larger unit, it’s averaging only 2 wounding hits, it’s really not amazing.

        • Except these two hits can deal up to 12 damage and 7 in average. That is quite amazing imo.

          • Karru

            Yet still average to about 7 wounds, because that is how averages work.

          • And as I said, I think 7 ain’t a bad deal at all. A shot which doesn’t need to be uber-lucky can kill a Dread in a single try.

          • Karru

            Well, against a Dread, you are looking at 1 wounding hit, which averages to 4 wounds. D3 shots (2 shots), 1 hit, 1 wound, no save and 4 damage. Still not great.

          • So tell me, how big were the chances in 7th to one-hit a dread and how big is that chance in 8th? Maybe re-think then. Those knights are some seriously tough buggers in 8th and the damage is still impressive imo.

          • Karru

            With a Thermal Cannon? Almost non-existent because it was a 5″ blast meant for groups of vehicles mostly. I mean, you needed to hit it, which wasn’t really that difficult considering the size of the template and the base as well as the chance to scatter. Then you had to roll 4+ to pen, and then 5+ to explode. I really don’t want to do the math on all of that, but I’d say it is slightly better or the same as the coming one.

          • Yea, I’m not in the mood of doing the math now either, but I guess the new one has better chances by a minor margin. Squadrons though in 8th might suffer less than in 7th… well, in case you did hit them all.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          the loss of templates will have very odd effects versus hordes. Now a horde can stand there and take thermal cannon hits all day. So you’ll massively overkill D6 models per turn, so what?

    • Scatter 667

      as long as we can’t compare them to anything else we actually don’t know whats overpowered and whats garbage. And the question of how rule or weapons really work can only be judged with much more data sheets on the table.
      Why do you actually think that they stay at 375? because a minimarine droped a point? Or the multimelter went up from 10 to 27points? I would really like to know so i could calculate my armylist for a day one match…

      • Karru

        Yes, actually, it is because of the Marine point drop I expect that the pricing of the Knights won’t change too much. You see, the problem is this, GW loves money. There is no way they will make Knights expensive in points, because that would lead to people getting to play them in fewer numbers. This leads to less sales, which leads to less money. It is a simple logic with GW.

        The normal GW balancing act has always been the same. Something is extremely powerful? Make everything else less expensive to compensate, but make sure that the powerful thing remains the same so people still buy it and others wishing to counter it has to buy more.

        • I’m not sure about that. I would have agreed 18 months ago. But currently? I believe GW noticed they get far more sales from a balanced and well rounded system and by making all fans happy in general. Of course, that’s only at the launch of the edition, power creep will keep driving sales the time after.

          • Karru

            You say that, but GW is currently releasing a new Space Marine army into the game that is better than the old Marines and if the Power Levels are any indication, they will be around the same price only slightly more expensive than regular Marines.

            GW does power creep on purpose. They want to make sure they can get as much money out of people as possible and that is the best way to do it. They make something powerful, then they make it expensive and after a while, they make something that is more powerful.

            This is especially true with their larger kits. They make them very powerful and very cheap on purpose. They saw how few people bought Baneblades, Lords of Skulls and Stompas, there was very little point in buying them because you knew you couldn’t really field it due to the price in points. Meanwhile Knights were an instant success, as were Wraithknights. Why? Because they were extremely cheap and very powerful, so there was very little reason not to have one.

            Remember, as much as GW might look like on the outside, they are still a company. A company wants nothing more than to make money. A good company does it in a way that most customers don’t realise they are buying into their little “schemes”.

          • And that’s why I think power-creep will return in the long run. But I still believe they will have it ‘more or less balanced’ at the beginning of 8th to attract people to return and invest in stuff they didn’t feel of being good enough until now.
            I’m just really not sure if these Numarines will be properly costed. Somehow I doubt it.

          • Mr.Gold

            they didn’t have any weapon options though, whereas the OldMarines still seemed to have their current options making them potentially more flexible…

          • We’ve seen Numarines already with multiple of new bigger Plasmaguns. So I doubt this ‘flexibility’ will be missing for very long.

    • kingcobra668

      This guy is already calling balance issues LoL!
      Holy cow this is hilarious/pathetic.

  • Heinz Fiction

    Should have removed this faction completely and deleted all records…

    • ZeeLobby

      yeah… le sigh…

  • Ravingbantha

    Super Heavy detachment, looks like all sorts of schennanigans can be had with that one.

    • Muninwing

      five stompas sounds fun

      i wonder if Gulliman and Calgar, riding in a thunderhawk, count as that one in entirety?

    • If Warlords and Phantoms still only take one slot… jeez, I am so curious to know how many wounds and what toughness these will have.

    • Jason Ball

      I’m guessing that the

  • kingcobra668

    That’s just 4 attacks…

    • That’s potentially 24 damage.

      • Dan Wilson

        This! At -4 ap I believe!?

        • Karru

          And 10 Guardsmen can kill the Knight in a single volley. I mean, if we are going with “potential” damage and ignore the math completely, might as well go all they way, right?

          • Fergie0044

            No no, what could POTENTIALLY happen is you get struck by lightening on your way to the game, meaning your opponent wins by default.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            How the heck can 10 Guardsmen kill a 24-Wound Imperial Knight?! Unless you’re talking about a Veteran squad with 3 meltaguns who roll all 6s and deal 18 damage and the remaining 7 Guardsmen roll 6s for their lasguns. And the Knight fails all his 3+ armor save.

            If you’re just talking about lasguns alone, then no…

          • Karru

            Like I said, since we are ignoring the Math completely here, why not go all they way?

            Hendarion said that the Knight has a potential for 24 damage. The chances of course are very, very slim of that ever happening. So, I made the comparison that 10 Lasguns also have potential to cause up to 40 wounds against a Knight, but that doesn’t mean it’s likely. It’s just damage potential as that seems to be the only thing that matters in these cases.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            How do you get 40 Wounds? Are you assuming they fire 40 rounds with the First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire order? I mean, I wish you would be more elaborate with your example because a lasgun only fires 2 shots at rapid fire at most. And the Sergeant has a laspistol anyway, so that’s 3 shots deducted from the “40” shots there.

          • Karru

            First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, now seems to double the amount of shots the unit gets. So within 12″, the unit gets 4 shots per gun and not 3 like they used to. I don’t know how they will do the sergeant in this edition.

            Also, did you seriously think I was serious here?

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Yeah, I mean, if you meant to say they used First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! you should have said that, because I was confused at first how they could fire over 24 shots.

            No, I was just trying to calculate stuff.

          • Karru

            Well, one can now days assume that Guard will be using the First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire rule a lot since Orders are now automatic. I’m hoping that they make Vox-casters “realistic”. Something like if both the Command Squad and the unit they are ordering have Vox-casters, there is no range limitation.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            There will be restrictions, because only officers can issue orders. Even if they are automatic, you will have more units than officers who can issue orders.

            Yeah, I wonder how the new vox-casters will work.

          • Karru

            Unless they nerf Guard by removing the Combined Units and such, a smart player will have enough officers to use. I mean, I’ve been playing with an Infantry heavy Guard army and I have yet to run out of orders to issue.

            But as I said, it will boil down to how GW has done the Infantry Platoon. If they got rid of the Combined Squad thing and make Guard armies take separate squads, then we might have a problem.

    • ZeeLobby

      Who knows what their special rules are as well. Imperial Knight Annoyance: “Everything within 5″ dies”

    • Scatter 667

      they will also have Titanic Feet, some kind of stomp-esque thing, we dont know yet how it works. And they cannot be locked in combat easily, which allows them to fight than fall back and shot the crap out of their attackers, which has to be factored in.

      • Well, to be fair, nobody can be locked in combat anymore. Knights just do it better though and I hope that counts for all formerly super heavies / gargantuan.

        • Scatter 667

          actually it was stated that to move back you have to have the space to move your models. Thats means if you are surrounded by enemies you cannot fall back since you are not allowed to move through enemy models. the Knight kann walk over them, so this is a bit different. It seems that fly, the tau special rule, allows the same according to the flg signlas from the fronline. So while it might not be exclusive for the knight it is still different than for normal units.

          • Yea, as I said: “Knights just do it better”
            Btw, you really listen to ‘Signals of the Frontline’? Wow.

          • Scatter 667

            altough i don’t play tournaments and ITC is not a thing where i live, it is a very different view towards the game then what the local meta has.
            I know its a show and they want to promote the game and make money, but they had some valid cirtique on broken things in the game. Tournament players within my local group and in general find all the loop holes in the game and use that to find the best builds. This is valueable for me to decide what or what not to add to my army, since i only buy stuff i like the look of but i don’t want to end up not playing the stuff because its just bad or not needed.
            Now for 8th the guys did a lot of play testing and helped to make 8th and they also wrote some of the articles. From listening i hope to understand better how things come together for 8th and to help me understand how the game will play. They of course have their own interest in the game, but reading between the lines can maybe help to see whats going to come. In addition they did clearify some stuff which was worded badly in the articles or elsewhere and some tidbits which were not officially revealed yet.
            So yes, it helps, but you have to take it with some salt.

    • TheFunnySide

      Well its fighting power is splitt between the cannon and the chainsaw. Which you probably still can shoot when in cc.

  • Donald Wendt

    Gonna need a lot of wound counters this edition.

    • There’s an app for that. 😉

      • Donald Wendt

        I’m not a tournament player but I image with so many units having a handful to dozens of wounds keeping account of your opponents wounds will be just as important. A counter on the table next to the unit may be ideal for that.

        • Yea, it might be better to have tokens for visualisation. I was thinking about adding some tablet-visual-support for wound-tracking to my app, but just printing out a big amount of huge-number-paper-snippets may be simpler 😛

        • generalchaos34

          Litko already sells some really nice counters that look a little like Xwing dials for that purpose for AoS

  • Nyyppä

    I don’t see a problem here. I have no idea how this is brought down without shooting but other than that it seems to be fine…if the cost is on the mark.

    • Karru

      I have harder time seeing how your typical Ork list will bring this thing down. I mean, how does one deal that many wounds without ignoring the entire enemy army?

      • Nyyppä

        One does not. Not if you want to bring it down in one turn.

        • Karru

          I mean, even across a 5 turns, I have a hard time seeing these things brought down with Orks without suffering horrendous damage first, unless you build a hard counter list against it. You can’t Tarpit it, so you can’t stop it that way. It has 24 wounds and a 3+/5++ save. It can move 12″ and Orks have 5+ as their BS. You can’t shoot it well, you can’t hit it well most likely and you can’t tie it up.

          • Nyyppä

            I’d suggest melee but since characters no longer hide in squads it’s pretty desperate.

          • Karru

            I seriously don’t see that working against them either. Since a Power Fist is now just -3 AP and -1 to hit, one can assume that Power Klaw will be the same. The problem is, I can see GW giving Orks WS 4+ out of spite. This would mean that a Power Klaw would be hitting on a 5+ against the Knight, then requires 4+ to wound it and the thing has to fail a 6+ save. After that you do only D3 damage to it. The Ork Boys won’t be contributing much either, as one really only plays them in groups of 12 to fit into Trukks.

            Again, I don’t see how one deals with one of these with Orks without basically ignoring the entire enemy army or ignoring it and then getting crushed by it as it charges units and kills your characters from close range.

          • Nyyppä

            Let’s hope that they thought of something realistic.

          • mrbleak

            Ghazghkull my friend We have the Goffian Beast whom in all editions has been the god of 1 v 1 during his Waaagh, let´s just hope he keeps it up and can rip one of these in half in 1 round.

          • Karru

            I highly doubt that Ghazghkull will be that effective. He will most likely be a beast against everything else, but the Knight will just roll over him, if the Knight even cares. The problem is still the same as with any other CC oriented unit. Since the Knight moves 12″ a turn, it dictates who fights who. Stick Ghazghkull inside a Battle Wagon and the enemy just turns on it on turn 1 and then they spend the remaining game slowly making their way towards the Knight which just runs around in circles, killing most of your Ork army.

          • mrbleak

            Well if they make the screen decent again and with the wounding system I doun´t think a BW is gonna come done easily also Ghazs Waaagh might Revert to what it was in the codex before this one and there you have it. Solved. You will get into combat turn 2 regardless of what he moves. In my exp, with those 2 things Ghaz gets anywhere, adding the wound thing just makes it even more reliable ^^

          • Karru

            What I am currently waiting to see is what they’ll do with the Stompa. If they go their current way of wounds, which is around 4x the Hullpoints of the original vehicle, Stompa should be rocking 40+ wounds if the logic continues. It won’t, of course, because they run the risk of giving Orks something that might be considered maybe decent, but you know, one can dream. It’ll most likely get 30 wounds tops, but still cost the same as it does now, just to make sure it “remains on the level”.

          • Alpharius

            Out of spite?? What on earth are you on about this time! Let me guess, Obama’s half-lizard and Area 51 is hiding aliens…

          • Karru

            Do not forget that there are also communists on Mars, but the government is hiding them.

            Anyway, it is clear that GW doesn’t particularly “like” Orks and prefers that people play other armies instead. They actively do everything they can to make them less appealing, ranging from increasing the price of the models $$$-wise while decreasing their price in game to giving them things that are utterly useless. They are in a similar boat to Tyranids where there seems to be one person that absolutely hates them and for some reason he is given the reins to write the book.

            They suffered about as badly as Tyranids did when they got their latest book. It was littered with nerfs across all fronts, Mob rule was nerfed to the ground, Trukks lost their Ramshackle table, they lost their force org “switching”, they made Painboys easier targets, Morka/Gorkanaut was pretty much useless due to not being a Super Heavy and they lost a good chunk of their Special Characters.

            This happens in somewhat regular basis. Tyranids as I mentioned were one that suffered from this greatly, thanks to Robin Cruddace. Other army that was actively made worse was Dark Eldar. Their 5th edition codex was in every single way superior to the current one. I have yet to meet a single Dark Eldar player that has played in both and doesn’t agree.

          • Alpharius

            I’m just not sure why Games Workshop would hate on their own product like that. It really does sound like some ridiculous conspiracy. I’m not sure how they’ve gone out of their way to make them less appealing, they do want to sell models don’t they?

            They were given quite an extensive model release not very long ago, and whilst some of the stupid, broken things from their 4th ed codex was dumbed down (D-level deffrollas, battlewagons doubling the size of kff bubbles), the codex was far from a nerf. Whilst mob rule got weaker for very large groups it got much better for small units (where it often really mattered) such as Meganobz, Trukk’s ramshackle rules is actually better imo, everyone lost for org switching so nothing special, and I painboys got a massive buff, now bring able to be added to any unit you wished. Other things got buffed too like Warbuggies, meks and flashgits, and there were quite a few points reductions, rokkit launchas for example.

            Overall the Codex was a lateral move from the last one way back in 4th, and although it doesn’t hold up well in the current meta, this seems more likely a result of being the first codex of 7th, the misjudging of power level and too little playtesting than some weird design studio hate, especially given that Gw has admitted themselves that some armies were really struggling in 7th and they have worked hard to fix it.

            Even if you have little faith in GW to balance the game (rather understandably, 7th different even pretend to be close to balanced) do you not trust the 3rd part input used for developing 8th to make the game closer to balanced that before?

            I being cautiously optimistic and have reserved all opinions until the full picture is revealed.

          • Karru

            To be completely honest, no I do not trust the 3rd party in this. The problem is that they have openly said that who the 3rd party is. It’s the largest tournament circuit out there, which doesn’t give me too much hope. They are competitive players first and surely have their own favourite armies. This is most likely based on the effectiveness of a few armies in the past two editions, so the chances are that the armies they tested mostly doesn’t include those at the bottom of the barrel.

            The core rules currently point to one thing, heavy favouring of Elite Armies. I won’t list them here again, but the short story is that armies with bad saves and bad BS are getting hit with the nerf bat while those with high BS and great saves are golden. This is what makes me extremely sceptical about the current way things are going.

            Also, not everyone lost their Force Org shenanigans. Space Marine Bikes are not Troops automatically. They become Troops as soon as you have a Captain on a Bike. Dark Eldar also got their Homunculus Coven thingy going.

          • Alpharius

            Point taken about the tournament organisers. The thing I’m curious about is how grav weapons remained the same but are some how completely balanced. Yeah..I’d love to be proven wrong but I really can’t see how that’s going to work out.

            I’m not seeing 8th favouring elite armies though. Firstly now that blasts and templates, all blast and template weapons are just straight up better against smaller units of models, especially single models. Though we can all agree they seem worse against hordes.

            Secondly doesn’t the new (or old-old) ) ap benefit crappy saves? Ap-1 for example got a lot better against marines and terminators but worse against 4+ and 5+ (the same against 6+). Yes terminators will still get a 5+ save against ap-3 but they have/had a 5++ anyway and will now be worse against ap-1 and ap-2.

            Also, weight of fire is now better than ever, thanks to the new s v t chart and no more traditional armour values, not to mention the fact that flak armour and the like will now protect you from bolter fire.

            And yeah Space Marines kept there force org manipulation because SPEHSS MARINESS.

          • Karru

            First of all, Blast Weapons are now worse against all targets. You are now looking at around 1-2 hits per shot at best, which leads to around 1 wound in the end, so not that great no matter what you are shooting at.

            Secondly, the new AP system is worse for crappy saves. Here’s why, because they now made the change from Cover being its own save, you now get +1 to your Armour save if you are in cover. This means that instead of getting a 5+ save against pretty much all shooting attacks, Orks for example are now getting 5+ against weapons with no AP, 6+ against weapons with -1 AP and none against -2 and -3. Meanwhile, Marines are getting a 2+ save from sitting in cover against weapons with no AP, 3+ against weapons with -1 AP, 4+ against -2 and 5+ against -3. Before, they would have gotten a 3+ save against anything with AP above 4, which in 8th translates to -1 AP. Now, instead of a 5+ save, they are getting a 4+ save against weapons that used to ignore their save. Power Armour got buffed greatly while bad saves got downgraded or remained the same.

            The only units that “benefited” really from this are those with 5+ save to some extend. Even Guardsmen now have a 4+ save against Bolter Fire, but they got that already from standing behind the Aegis, so not that big of a change.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I don’t think they actively hate them. Its just that in the period those books were written there was effectively no playtesting, and secrecy between design teams made it impossible to release products with the same power levels.

          • Alpharius

            Agreed.

          • generalchaos34

            thats why everything hurts everything, also thats what Tank Bustas are for. Plus im sure orks will have some access to mortal wounds

          • Karru

            As I mentioned before, there are quite a few problems when it comes to Orks attempting to counter a 24 wound monstrosity.

            Tank Bustas, unless they have some borderline broken rules, will be mostly useless against the Knight. Even 10 of them won’t be enough bring the Knight down in a reasonable time. Rokkit Launcha has a range of 24″, Strength of 8 and most likely AP -2 and 1 shot, which will probably do D3 damage. They are hitting the thing on 5’s, which means that you are hitting 3-4 times. Half of those will wound it, and still give the thing a 5+ save. Now you get to do the “extra” damage to it, if you got anything through that is.

            Taking potshots at the Knight won’t work either. Sluggas, Shootas and other Ranged Weapons of the Orks won’t be doing enough damage due to low chance to hit and lack of AP, which basically leaves CC. There are two problems with this. First of all, the Knight has 12″ movement range, it is the one who dictates who fights who. Even if you manage to charge it somehow, you are looking at some very mediocre damage to it from you Power Klaws. One can already see the rules for the Klaw, Strength 8, -3 AP and D6 damage, -1 to hit. Since one can also assume that GW will give Orks a WS of 4+ out of spite, they won’t be hitting anything with those stats.

            From there, the Knight just hits, stomps and laughs as your Melee units just run away after taking too many casualties. If nothing else, it will just move out of combat and continue its rampage, leaving the Boys to be finished off by someone else.

            I seriously don’t see anything in the Ork arsenal that can deal with the Knight in a reasonable fashion. By Gork (or possibly Mork), I cannot even fathom how Orks could win against 2 Knights. Those things will just ignore everything you throw at them, kill whatever they basically want and grab objectives across the board.

      • That’s kind of the issue I see with many armies. There will be a lot of wounds that will need massive attention in 8th. Vehicles, monsters, super heavies, you need some seriously heavy damage dealers.

        • Karru

          That is something I really don’t like about this edition. The problem with Orks for example is their lack of shooting. While they have a good amount of shooting, they can’t hit the broadside of the barn with it. On top of that, a Knight can’t be countered by the usual Ork tactics, which was tying it up or popping it with Klaws.

          With 12″ of movement, the Knight dictates the fight. You won’t be the one doing the charging, the user of the Knight decides that. It catches your Deff Dreads or Killa Kans, they are dead. Tankbustas won’t be able to hit and/or damage it enough and Boys are worthless against it.

          Space Marines have Lascannons and for them they are highly accurate, so they can take these things down pretty well. They also have Meltas, Multi-meltas and possibly even Grav weapons that can tear these things apart. Chaos will most likely have Autocannons and Missile Launchers to deal with them as well as Knights of their own. Tyranids have their big bugs, which they hinted that a Trygon or two maybe could do some damage to Knights. Guard can just blow it up with Lascannons/Autocannons/Exterminators. Heck, maybe even the Vanquisher will be strong against it. Eldar will have Distort weapons and other toys to break it, if nothing else, I am sure that the Wraithknight will do well. Dark Eldar have more Dark Lances than that things has wounds if done right so you have nothing to worry about there really.

          But what do Orks have? Mek Guns? You’d have to spam quite a few of those in order to get something done. Lootas are pointless as they can’t hit anything, much less wound the damn thing. Tankbustas need some very good special rules in order to have even the slimmest of chances to damage it. Morka/Gorganaut doesn’t really look that good against it either. Having 8″ of movement at full life doesn’t help it reach the Knight that much as the Knight can easily avoid it.

      • Fergie0044

        throw Gorkanauts at it.

        Like literally chuck your model at it and then run…

  • The question about blasts is do multiple damage cause wounds across the unit like aos or is it restricted to

  • Drpx

    We’re going to need damage cards with all these wounds to keep up with on multiple vehicles. Also, LOW detachment, interesting means other factions can go pure Kaiju-Jaeger now too.

    • generalchaos34

      get some 20 sided dice! If you bought Burning of prospero you might have some already…..conspiracy?

      • JPMcMillen

        The problem with dice (especially a d20) is that one bump and you have to hope you can remember what number it was.

        There are numerous companies that make wound markers you can buy if you don’t want to make your own. And I’m sure those same companies will also start making wound counters as well.

    • Scatter 667

      either just print some number tokens like 1,3,5 and ten our use some turning counters. i actually built some prototypes already similar to that:
      https://www.facebook.com/Tabletopcombat/photos/rpp.473085179428532/1449150381822002/?type=3&theater
      printed on paper with the chaos star and the world eaters jaws. works nice, simple and cheap, but since it printed still looks fine

  • Mr.Gold

    interesting that the ion field has gone to a flat 5++ though…

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      It always should have been.

  • Urban Bungledorph

    I think the “bonus” to large units is actually an extremely well balanced nerf. Removing large templates prevents lucky unit wiping, and making it so he can only kill 1 model per round in small units means that the titan is wasted when not prioritizing other large models. Which is just how it should be. Not only that but a knight won’t wipe a squad off of an objective on the last turn with a lucky shot. So even if you can’t kill the opponents knight, your small dudes have an advantage on objective holding, which is exactly how it should be.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Amen.

      • Blightstar

        Yeah that is pretty true… for meltacannon. Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamers and all top-mounted weapons kill infantry just fine.

  • georgelabour

    Fingers crossed that the Magaera will now be a bit more useable alongside the normal knights.

    • Nyyppä

      Macarena?

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      still the nicest model I think.

  • SilentPony

    So does the ion shield still need to be declared which side or is it all sides all the time?

    • Fergie0044

      All sides the article says

      • SilentPony

        That’s what I figured, but the fact its still the ‘ion shield’ makes it strange. Just do a generic invul save.

        • generalchaos34

          well you can still give it a cool name, I imagine everyone with an invuln will say “Terminator Armor 5++” or “Storm Shield: 3++”

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          its a big loss of tactical play. the skill of taking down a Knight by outflanking it, getting several dangerous units into different arcs, is now lost. Now the way to win: bring more guns.

  • Jennifer Burdoo

    Wait, does this mean that S3 lasguns can hurt T8 now? (Haven’t checked the rules in a while.)

    • Yea, but you statistically need like 864 lasgun shots to bring it down – if it is not in cover. In cover you will need 1728 lasgun shots to take one down.

  • Warboss_Stalin

    Is it me, or can you now just load your ork mob onto old fantasy trays and slide them 6″ because blast weapons are now a joke….no need to space anyone out…I guess that DOES speed up the game, but man that’s weak…

    • Yep, that’s how you can go for it. And that’s why I imagine 9th or 10th will come with the ‘brilliant idea of templates to punish tightly packed model-blobs’.

  • MechBattler

    They really seem to be obsessed with 9 inches. Is this all Tzeentch’s master plan?

    The most interesting bit seems to be that Knights can walk over infantry models. Do we take this to mean that superheavies can’t be locked in combat by smaller models?

    • Nobody can be locked in close combat in 8th, not even regular infantry models. Tanks never could anyway and now gargantuans and superheavy walkers will just keep on walking away as it should always have been (and as it was in 6th).

      • MechBattler

        No more locking in combat? Is this confirmed?

        • Yes. In the first few rules news GW published.

          • MechBattler

            Huh. Double edged sword it seems like. On the one hand, you can get away from combat, on the other, you can’t keep an enemy unit in place anymore. Is there any kind of test for leaving combat, or do you literally just walk away?

          • You just walk aways and give up on shooting with that unit this turn.

          • MechBattler

            Ah, so pulling back costs you a turn at shooting. Good to know that it isn’t something you can do for free. That would’ve been terrible if you could just do it and then dakka into the unit you were in combat with.