40K: Transports in 8th Edition

  • Posted by
  • at

Transports are important to an infantry heavy army. Here’s how they’ll work in 8th Edition 40K.

Today’s 8th Edition preview is a look at transports in Newhammer. From what they’re saying, it sounds like they expect transports to play a much more active role in the game, instead of just existing a turn or two, getting shot, and then immediately crumpling because it turns out their armor is made of explosives and Ford Pintos.

Which I have to say sounds pretty exciting. There are a few big changes in the works for the way transports work too–units can charge the turn they exit a transport (but they have to debark at the start of your movement phase). This seems pretty huge, especially since we know that some vehicles will be punchy. I, for one, am eager to see Ork Trukks roll up, let a mob of boyz hop out, and then charge into combat with a bunch of claws or saws, or comically huge boxing gloves or whatever it is that vehicle close combat weapons will look like.

I just realized…this means that some transports, will be Transporters.

Like that, but the car is also punching. And Jason Statham.

via Warhammer Community

In the new Warhammer 40,000, Transports are almost universally, better: they are more durable, faster, many are better at shooting, and all have fewer limitations on the units disembarking from them. For example, a unit disembarking from a Transport is no longer prevented from chargingthat turn.

Units now disembark at the start of the Movement phase, before the Transport moves, but can then move, shoot and fight normally in that turn. This opens up loads of tactical options for both shooting and combat themed armies, especially now that multiple units can share a single Transport up to its capacity.

For a combat army, this will mean you will need to get your Transports where you need them in the previous turn for maximum effect. One tactic we’ve seen used to good effect already is to then use the Transport to charge in alongside the unit into combat!

You can see already that this it is likely to be considerably more durable than it is today, and the skill of the Harlequin pilots even makes it not too shabby in a fight. This being open-topped too, the passengers in it can shoot normally even after that huge 16″ move, and still shoot pistols into units that are in combat with their Transport in their own Shooting phase!

It doesn’t all go Transports’ way though. Being inside an exploding vehicle is still bad news. Models inside a wrecked Transport will now die on the roll of a 1. This isn’t so bad for units like Orks and Guardsmen, who were used to taking a few casualties when losing their Transport, but is going to hurt a bit more for elite units, so be sure to put valuable units in your most durable Transports, like Land Raiders and Battlewagons.

So there you have it. Any unit dying on a 1 is going to make transports a little risky–but did you catch that part about units with pistols being able to shoot at models engaged by the transport? You could charge a squad with an open-topped vehicle, and then your guys can unload their pistols while your vehicle fights. I think fights are going to be a lot more dynamic in the coming edition.

Read more about Transports in 8th Edition

What do you think of the new vehicle rules we’ve seen?

  • Farseerer

    Before anyone comments, stop and listen to that deep humming just on the edge of your hearing. It sounds like a massive thunderstorm on the other side of some mountains, but deeper and far more sinister.
    Is it the normal sound of traffic? No.
    Is it the sound of crying 40k players? Maybe.

    It’s also definitely the sound of every Rhino that has been left gathering dust since 4th revving its engine and rushing in your general direction.

    I wouldn’t know but I would imagine today is a very good time to be a Black Templars player.

    Dorn’s lunatics are back baby!

    • Xodis

      This and the ‘nid release today was an AMAZING release for a Sunday. Havn’t been this excited about 40K in years.

      • ZeeLobby

        Ditto. Guns guns and more guns has gotten stale. Really hope mobile assault is a thing again.

        • Muninwing

          next weekend, i’m digging out the Wych Cult…

      • Gunther Clone C

        I’m currently getting my Genestealers out of storage…all 80+ of them.

    • AircoolUK

      I found three unmade rhino/razorback/demolisher kits up in the loft yesterday, so they’ll be getting glued and painted as soon as.

      I use magnets so they can be built as any model based on the Rhino.

      My Dwarf Dirigible Fleet is on hold at the moment as 40K is back on the scene.

    • Marco Marantz

      What makes Black Templars so special. Id be more worried about Berzerkers with a viable rapid delivery system now.

    • Crevab

      4th? Transports were poor in 4th. 5th took away several rules that made them unusable while reducing the cost on many transports.

      • threeorangewhips

        That’s why they’ve been gathering dust SINCE 4th, as in after 3rd.

        • Crevab

          which is wrong because transports were everwhere in 5th

      • Muninwing

        actually, vehicles were so delicate in 4th that i used mine all the time — so few people brought effective anti-tank capabilities that you could walk all over them with an Armored Company.

        sure, you ran a risk of getting tabled pretty quickly if you had some bad luck or a prepared opponent, but it was fun to go big or go home…

    • Aurion Shidhe

      Dorn’s lunatics? How about my Blood Angel Rhino Rush!

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        That is a far better choice.

  • Karru

    Oh boy, this isn’t good. The Starweaver is Toughness 5 with 6 wounds and a 4+ save. I have a feeling that Trukk won’t be too far behind that. Those things will die faster than a unit of Wraithguard did before.

    Anyway, nothing really new here. We basically new everything here from earlier things, Assaulting from transports and the Disembarking for example. Overall, in that front, I can see improvements.

    I just love the comment they made, “You can see already that this it is likely to be considerably more durable than it is today”. Considering that one Tactical Squad with basic loadout can oneshot these things, I really don’t have high hopes for them. At least before they could rely on a 3+ Jink save, now they are relying on a 4+ save against regular fire and less for anything with AP. They won’t survive long.

    • Farseerer

      There are a lot of mechanics we still need to see such as how jink will work before we know how durable or not transports will be.

      • Karru

        It is still a silly comment to make. They said that it looks likely that they are more survivable. With those stats, it’s going to need at least +3 to save from a “Jink” if it wants to be more survivable than the one we now have. Even funnier if they give weapons such as Missile Launchers D6 Damage or Autocannons D3. These things will die faster than people can place them on the table then.

        • Farseerer

          It definitely looks like light transports are made out of paper right now. One of the rumours said that Jink will be a to hit modifier.

          -2 to hit would be huge

          • Karru

            Glad to be Eldar then. Well, at least Dark Eldar will have something major going for them for a change. I just feel sad for my Orks.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Didn’t they say Battlewagons will be as durable as Land Raiders?

          • Karru

            Yeah, sure, let me take all my Boys in Battlewagons which I am sure they can take as a Dedicated Transport.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            I don’t play Orks, sorry, but can’t they do just that? I remember Battlewagons and Trukks are Dedicated Transports for Orks.

          • Karru

            Battlewagon is the Ork Land Raider, so only Meganobz can take it as a Dedicated Transport, otherwise it is a Heavy Support option. Everyone else has to use Trukks, which is the problem here as they seem to be more squishy than they currently are.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Have they shown the stats for Trukks yet? I’m assuming it’s as durable as a Chimera or Taurox.

          • Karru

            GW has followed a “logic” with their releases thus far. For example, Dreadnought was AV12 with 3 HP. Now it has Toughness 7 and 8 wounds. Annihilation Barge was AV11 with 3 Hull Points. Now it has Toughness 6 and 8 wounds. Starweaver was AV10 with 2(?) HP. Now it has Toughness 5 and 6 Wounds.

            Trukk was AV10 with 3 HP, now you might see my problem with the situation.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            I think that’s pretty much the same as a Taurox, with AV11 front, and AV10 on sides and back with 3 HP. It was cheap, though, and costed 50 points. How much did a Trukk cost?

          • Karru

            35pts currently.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            What the heck, that’s cheaper than a Taurox, which costs almost twice as much for only an extra AV on the front!

            I can see now why it’s not as durable.

          • Karru

            It’s basically a Rhino. It had one weapon, which is either a Big Shoota or a Rokkit that had BS2. Its only purpose really was to bring the units it carried close enough to the enemy.

            Taurox is a mixed transport. While it has almost no armour, it has a useful weapon, which it can use to support the unit it carries.

          • Karru

            It’s basically a Rhino. It had one weapon, which is either a Big Shoota or a Rokkit that had BS2. Its only purpose really was to bring the units it carried close enough to the enemy.

            Taurox is a mixed transport. While it has almost no armour, it has a useful weapon, which it can use to support the unit it carries.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Yeah, I mean my Tauroxes are fragile but they’re useful. I actually use Taurox Primes, and they’re fast, deadly but fragile.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Yeah, I mean my Tauroxes are fragile but they’re useful. I actually use Taurox Primes, and they’re fast, deadly but fragile.

          • SiggisMarines

            I think it would be nice rules wise to see a more “ork-y” trukk. Like loaded with guns and what not shooting (at crappy BS, but off set it a bit with more guns) as it comes flying in.

          • Scott Staten

            Trukks are almost certainly going to be open topped. The Boys inside are going to be firing their weapons as the vehicle charges in.

          • euansmith

            … and cheering! Don’t forget the cheering. 😉

          • SiggisMarines

            Serious question: Do we know if specific dedicated transports are remaining? Has GW released any info on how dedicated will work or if they will change?

          • Karru

            I am pretty sure no. They will most likely follow their “current” way of dealing with them. Things like Trukks and Rhinos will be Fast Attack options, but certain units can take them as Dedicated Transports at which point they don’t take a slot.

          • SiggisMarines

            Hmm well if this is the case then hopefully next year when they get around to releasing more xenos stuff and the ork hints they gave previously, hopefully they will give them some good stuff. I don’t play them, but I think they are the most fun to play against rules, fluff, etc and I think they could use some better stuff.

          • Steven Hyche

            They have already hinted what deticated transports will look like. THey are apart of the formation and all units can use them + more than one unit.

          • Karru

            I am aware of this, but I highly doubt that they’ll make things like Land Raiders and Battle Wagons “Dedicated Transports” only so every unit in the army can have access to them. They will most likely limit them in some way.

            Basically something similar to what we have now, where Battle Wagons are only available to Meganobz as Dedicated Transports, everyone else needs to take it through Heavy Support.

          • Farseerer

            Yeah, maybe ramshackle will be amazing this edition. With all this talk of balance and fluffy lists getting rewarded I would be very surprised if regular boys in buggies weren’t a great unit in 8th.

          • Karru

            I highly doubt that they will be decent. The problem is that the likelihood that they properly tested Orks and actually balanced them out without going with the “we just made everything cheaper so now you can just take more” route which they usually do.

          • Farseerer

            isn’t that fluffy? Ork tech isn’t exactly meant to be cutting edge. I don’t think there is a single piece of fluff to suggest that a trukk should be as good as a starweaver. In fact, Trukks should be fast and flimsy and cheap.

            Like, if it’s balanced overall then does it matter? If you wan’t to limit your model count then go for more elite units like nobs and lootas in Battlewagons.

          • Karru

            The problem is effectiveness. They brought down the price of Tactical Marines as well and Boys already costed 6pts a piece. Sure, my Boy might now cost 4pts a piece, but that doesn’t mean he can fight properly at all. Heck, he might not even get to combat.

            Weak save models are already at a disadvantage in this edition compared to the last. It doesn’t matter if I take Nobz or Boys, they will die from enemy fire or from running away because they have no save against the effective shooting, something they had before. On top of that, they take extra damage because they are meant to be “able to take casualties”.

            It is basically a lose-lose situation either way. I take more expensive elite units, but my transports are too weak or too expensive so my units die before they can do any significant damage. I take core units and its the same thing.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Maybe you might want to wait until the Ork Faction Focus article before you write them off.

          • Scatter 667

            why do you think they are worse now then before in regard to their armour? They just had no save at all against bolter fire before and now they have one, so i can’t follow your line of thinking.
            In addtion, we still don’t know most of the unit rules, which might change things a lot and we haven’t seen anything with regard to orks except the morkanought.
            And i think trukks haven’t had a save before and now most likely they will have one, but will be wounded by bolters on 5+.

          • Karru

            By the gods, how many times do I have to explain this. Short version this time.

            Before Orks got a flat 5+ save from cover against everything.

            Now they get 5+ against regular fire. (No change)

            6+ against AP -1. (Reduced save)

            None against AP -2 and -3. (Reduced save)

          • EmperorOfMankind

            yeah and this game is just overflowing with AP -1 and AP -2 weapons.

          • VanosOfManos

            I’m wondering, and perhaps even a bit willing to bet, that warbikes will bring back that cover save bonus they had in 3rd/4th edition as they seem to be taking a bunch of inspiration from that era. It probably won’t be the same, but it would be really cool if warbike exhaust (I forget what the old name used to be) granted a penalty to hit targets within a certain range behind them, or a save bonus. As I recall it was what… a 5+ cover save in 3rd? I haven’t looked at the Boyz bikers at all since then.

          • Scatter 667

            how can you mix cover saves with armour saves to make your point? cover is not the normal save, but your 6+ armour was! and the 6+ was denied by a bolter and you had no save at all. Now you will have a 6+ save and that save most likely will be improved by cover.
            There is a change now, but not what you are suggesting. The modification is more situational now, but not a flat out model removal from bolter fire. Even your ‘ard boyz will get an armour save where they had non before due to heavy bolter ap4.
            Somehow you only seem to see the bad, but not the change for good.

          • Karru

            Okay, it’s the long explanation then.

            I don’t know about you, but my tables are always covered pretty well with Terrain. This means that all units are 90% of the time getting a cover.

            Since Cover now gives you better Armour Save instead of a Cover Save, I always include it and compare it.

            So, with that in mind, let’s dug deeper into this.

            Now, remember what I said about that Cover? Before 8th, my Orks would be getting a 5+ save 90% of the time. Now they are getting it only against weapons with no AP, which means weapons that normally took it away, so there is no change.

            Now, instead of getting that 5+ Cover Save, my Orks are getting a 6+ save against weapons with AP -1 and so on.

            You mentioned ‘Ard Boys with their 4+ save, coming against a Heavy Bolter. Now a 4+ save, before it was a 5+ save thanks to Cover, so a minor improvement, yes.

            In the open, one can always assume casualties in droves. While my Orks might be getting their amazing 6+ save against Bolters, they make up in the Morale phase, when the difference is negated after rolling for my extra wounds. So overall, Orks are in a similar position they currently are unless they get some major buffs across the board, amongst them the old Mob Rule. The 4th edition one mind you, not the current one.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            cover was only marginally useful to Orks. I could see your argument if Orks were a shooty army who liked to hide in cover, but they weren’t, most of the time you were running across open ground to get to the enemy. You’ll now get a save doing that against bolters and lasguns.

          • Djbz

            Lasguns are a bad example. (They haven’t had any Ap since, well forever)
            Bolters, Pulse Rifles, Scatter lasers etc would have been a better set of examples.

            (Point is still valid though)

          • Karru

            Evidently you haven’t been using enough cover or haven’t played Orks enough. There is a very good reason why people were quite angry about the loss of KFF when the 7th edition Codex came. Since they turned it into an Invulnerable save, instead of a Cover Save as well as the range debuff.

            The only way Orks survived their travel across the board was always cover. Whether it came from terrain or other friendly units, it was the key to their survival. If you just rushed across the open without cover, you got gunned down. Same thing will happen in 8th now, both in and out of cover as it got nerfed for the Orks.

            Also, many of your support units relied on Cover. Lootas and Mek Guns for example need cover in order to survive. Now they are getting a 5+ save against Bolter Fire and get wiped out by anything with -2 AP without getting any saves, instead of getting cover.

          • AircoolUK

            But the whole game has been rebuilt from the ground up and units balanced accordingly.

          • Karru

            Oh you naive boy…

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            there are a few pluses for Ork players that mean I’m thinking about finally painting up the ork army I’ve had hanging around for years. Firstly with no blasts to worry about, and ‘explosive’ weapons not doing that many hits, you’l be able to throw boyz onto movement trays and shove them about the board. Means that you can field a much bigger army with less logistical issues.

            Also multi charges are going to be less penalised and easier to achieve, You should be able to get a large proportion of the enemy army in combat in turn 2/3 and then falling back unable to shoot with a couple of fast sacrificial units, allowing the rest of your army to close and grab objectives/destroy units.

            Walkers will be greatly improved so Kans and Dreds will be more useful.

          • barry sadler

            Also, wrecking balls and grabber claws are most likely going to be combat weapons so a trukk can double up as a Kan

          • Karru

            Actually, I disagree partially with your comment regarding multi charges. Remember, the “no blasts” thingy also has effects on other armies, not just Orks. Now Guard players can place their Infantry Squads far apart from each other into blobs, making sure that Assault armies don’t get the multi-charges they want. For Tau and Space Marines, this is even better thanks to their “low” numbers.

            Kans might be useful, but it will depend on their Toughness. Deff Dreads will depend on their ability to go into groups, something they cannot do right now. If they have to go alone, then they aren’t as powerful as they need to be.

          • Koonitz

            I’m curious, Karru, if you’re still around and read this…

            How many games of 8th Edition have you played with your Orks? Assuming, based on your energetic discussion that you do, indeed, have an Ork army.

          • Karru

            Not a single game in 8th, all my predictions are based on previous reviews and obvious issues they have shown. Until I see Orks getting rules that fix these problems, I will continue to post my comments regarding them.

            In case you made a typo and meant 7th, I do own an Ork army. It’s my 4th 40k army and is sized around 4000pts currently. I have played around 30-40 games with them, but I started them around 1.5-2 years ago.

          • euansmith

            Ork Mob Trays should speed things, and might even encourage of WFB players to get in to 40k 😀

          • euansmith

            I don’t think that Ork Buggies and Trukks should give up Kill Points. I imagine the Boyz all cheering when anything explodes, including their own guys.

            Conversely, I think that Battlewagons, Stompaz and Gorkonauts should be worth a Kill Point, as the Orkz are more emotionally invested in them.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            But Orks are random and fun that way…ugh.

      • Charon

        They already answered that. there are no USR anymore, so no mor jink. If a vehicle can do something like jink, it will have an own unique special rule on the sheet.

    • SprinkKnoT

      I think Ork Trukks should end up roughly where they were before, with the big advantage that there is not longer the risk of it getting immobilized, stunned, or exploded. While it may die to less total fire, I think we’ll be seeing less games where it is dying/becoming useless for a turn against a single ap2/1 shot that rolled well on the vehicle chart.

      Without any knowledge of what Jink does, the Starweaver can still be killed in a single shot by a lascannon 1/6 of the time (although it needs a 3+ to wound now, which is actually pretty huge now that I think about it). 1-5 for damage of the lascannon means it is still operating at full power; no more it getting stuck for a turn.

      Trukks I would bet have the same toughness, but have an extra few wounds, meaning a single lascannon will never just outright kill it, and remember nothing is gonna autopen it now, even meltaguns will only wound 2/3 of the time!

      • euansmith

        Having a Trukk weather a round of shooting and be wobbling forward with just 1 wound left, smoke and steam pouring from its engine, blood dripping from bullet holes, gubbins falling off in its wake, would be dead Orky.

    • Fergie0044

      *gasp* a fragile Harlequin vehicle!!!

      • Karru

        I am not worried about the fact that the Harlequin Vehicle is fragile, but more worried about the fact that they revealed what AV10 looks like.

        • Fergie0044

          I won’t take this as an example of what AV10 will universally be. In my very limited experience of them, Harlequin’s were in no way typical.

          • Karru

            GW logic thus far has been “predictable”.

            AV13 = Toughness 8
            AV12 = Toughness 7
            AV11 = Toughness 6
            AV10 = Toughness 5

            My prediction is still the same, Trukk will be Toughness 5, 8 Wounds, 4+ Save.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Leman Russ tanks, AV14 = Toughness 8.

            So I don’t know…

          • Matt Halkos

            Exactly, Not everything in 8th will translate the same. Rending is ap -4 or the ap1 equivalent in 8th. Rending in 7th is ap2. So it should have been ap-3 if everything was converted the same.

          • Fergie0044

            Ah ok then. I did not realise we had enough examples of vehicles yet. We might see some shake up though – like with the APs of power weapons.

      • J Mad

        Being Fragile and not playable are two different things.

        But i guess we need to see the rest of the rules.

        • Koonitz

          Well, assuming hits have been scored, the revealed Starweaver 8th stats would require a total of 36 bolter hits to destroy it (taking 5+ wounding and a 4+ save into consideration).

          If you consider a 7th Ed Starweaver with a 3+ jink and glancing on 6’s, you require…

          36 bolter hits.

          What a convenient number.

          If it’s not playable in 8th, it’s likely not playable in 7th with AV, either. In which case we have a more fundamental problem with the vehicle that I believe people probably should have complained about a long time ago.

          • J Mad

            Its not Bolters that are the problems, its the mass S5-7’s and D3/D6 wounds in 8th (and seems tostill be the case sense we seen some of Tau’s weapons, its also the Plamsa, Melta, Flamaers, Lascannons, Blasts and ANY other weapon that does D3-D6 wounds.

            A flamer has the potential to kill a light vehicle now.

            With SM having A Heavy and Assault weapon in all units (why not, they can Split fire now). Its going to be even easier to just go unit by unit picking off important DE/Harlequins vehicles.

          • Koonitz

            You’ve listed weapons that were not only able to make Starweavers not exist with surprising ease already in 7th, but also able to make dreadnoughts feel like wasted points (Autocannons, I suspect, are high on your list of worries).

            A single autocannon has a chance to outright destroy a Starweaver right now. In 8th, (IIRC, we haven’t seen any stats, so I’m assuming it has identical stats with d3 damage), it has the same chance to damage (3+), with an average output of 2 damage a shot. It can destroy a Starweaver outright, but has to be a heck of a lot more lucky to do so, assuming both shots hit, and even before the thing does any form of what might exist as a new jink mechanic.

            We also don’t know if a Starweaver will have its own defensive measures built in, such as a rumour that a form of jink will exist that provides a -(to hit). Which will render it even more survivable against any weapon that doesn’t remove its save.

            Every weapon you’ve mentioned CURRENTLY severely threatens a Starweaver with the exception of the flamer, which, yes, can now do more damage to one. Then again, the flamer was such a patently useless weapon in the age of long ranged gunlines and zero swarm armies that IF they were taken, they were only used on certain units (drop pod dreadnoughts, for instance) or relegated to rear of squad anti-charge overwatch (such as 50-man guard blob squads which always have 5 flamers that sit so far back that they’re a good 2′ away from any charging unit, but still get to wall of flame overwatch!). Flamers have been buffed overall, not just against your Starweaver, time to get used to that.

            Right now, you’ve played zero games with them in 8th. GW and their playtesters have played quite a bit more. Be patient.

          • J Mad

            B.c Lascannons and those other weapons have Rend now we dont even get that 4+ save, in 7th it was a 4+ Invul, a 50/50 chance to not even take a Hull point at all.

            1 HP removed vs D3/D6 wounds, even from weaker weapons like flamers/HF’s small/large blasts (even if they are only S4-5) can do more damage now than many weapon in 7th.

            Also many of those weapons still had a chance to only Glance and not Pen, hence why AV10 is better than T5 (that and now more weapons wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+).

          • Koonitz

            First, glancing versus 8th mechanics is moot, as in 8th, unless you have a damage table, you can’t be stopped like a pen anyway. A lascannon that does 3 wounds is effectively the same as a lascannon that causes a glance, and since pens don’t exist…

            A lascannon used to auto damage AV10. Now it’s reduced to a 3+ (T5 needs S10 to have a 2+). That’s a 33% reduction in effectiveness straight out of the box.

            A single lascannon CAN, 1/6 chance, destroy a Starweaver outright. It used to be a 1/3 chance on a pen (AP2 + open topped), so that’s a reduction in effectiveness.

            On average, a lascannon will do 3-4 wounds to a Starweaver, needing 2 shots to destroy it, on average. Identical to current stats with 2 HP.

            We currently do not know what benefit jink will have in 8th. If it is a -(to hit) as the rumour says, that may end up being a -1 or a -2, or more. A -2 to hit would be a huge boost to survivability (would outright half the number of hits a Marine would get with lascannons, which is just about the same as the 50/50 jink save is now, halving the number of damaging shots.

            -2 would be even more of a reduction to those models that hit on 4+, as that’s a 66% reduction in hits on target.

            We just don’t know yet. The only thing we do know is that the Starweaver seems to be retaining its original intended purpose “fast, light, small transport that doesn’t want to get shot at”.

          • J Mad

            Im done talking now, b.c talking about glances in compare the old survivablity to T5 is not moot at all….

            Its the difference of doing 1 damage vs potential full HP’s. Kinda like a 8th Lascannon has the potential to do D6 wounds and killing a Light vehicle in 1 hit.

            A Lascannon hit>pen>rolling 5+ means the vehicle exploded.

            If you compare the new Damage chart to T5, and old Glance/Pen charts with the new Rend vs AP+1-2 on the Chart, compare to all the weapons in game you will find that more weapons are better now than in 7th vs light vehicles.

            Yes I know Jink and unit rules might change, but sense they are not talking about these rules yet i’m just going off of what we know.

          • Koonitz

            “… but sense they are not talking about these rules yet i’m just going off of what we know.”

            Which you can’t really do. You can’t take what we know and try to fit it in the framework of 7th and expect results. Every doom sayer I see commenting anywhere has made this mistake.

            Right now, almost NOTHING of what has been revealed has remained the same as it was in 7th. Hell, not even the basic stats of WS/BS and the interaction of Strength and Toughness has remained the same.

            It’s folly to assume what we don’t know will remain the same.

          • J Mad

            S5 vs AV 10
            Roll of 5+ = 1hp

            S5 vs T5
            Roll a 4+ = 1 Wound

            Now take into account F/HF’s that does D6 wounds before need a 6 or 5+ now needed a 5 or 4+ to do D6 HP’s instead of 1.

            These are the things im talking about, it is simple math that there is much higher potential to do more wounds easier on light vehicles.

            Again from what we can see and know. NO DUH that this might change with special rules…. ffs Im just trying to show math of AV10 vs T5 and why from what i see that light vehicles are not in favor atm (until more rules come out).

          • Koonitz

            And that’s the problem, isn’t it? “until more rules come out”.

            We simply do not know. Though I have given you some counter arguments as to why things may not be as bad as you see (certainly different, but not as bad), based on what we do know, right now, we don’t know enough to say for certain.

          • J Mad

            Having an opinion and talking about my opinions for what we currently are seeing isnt something to get upset over.

            Im entitle to express some concerns, you are just as entitle to express your opinions too.

            But if you didnt want to talk to me about all of this, then all you had to say was,

            “Ok i understand you are concerned, but there might still be some good unit rules for those armies, lets wait and see”

            And afc I would have just said,
            “yeah i’m just expressing whats going on in my head atm, Yes i am still waiting for the full rules before i say the sky is falling.”

          • ILikeToColourRed

            yes you wound it more easily, but its wounds also trippled

          • Koonitz

            If you intend to continue to doom say like that and worry about such little things, might I make a recommendation? Please take this as an honest and serious recommendation and not as a means of belittling.

            Might I recommend avoiding these teasers? Avoid the teasers, avoid the comments. Avoid EVERYTHING, until 8th Edition is released. Then, get the core and army rules in full, with no possibility of making incorrect assumptions. Then you can play a few games and see how things play out for yourself.

            If you want to find the motivation to expand your collection, once again, don’t. Take a break from modeling (or work on that backlog that every hobby collector has). Don’t have enough models to properly playtest when the game is released? Proxy or borrow. I’m sure a pop can on its side would make for a great Starweaver while you give 8th a serious run to see if it’s truly the doom of these vehicles as you suspect.

          • J Mad

            Im not doom saying at all, i extremely excited for 8th!

            Just because i’m showing opinions of 1 type of unit that i feel are not in favor at all doesnt mean I think the army is doomed.

            I cant wait to put my 15k points of DE on the table.

            Let me prove it to you that im not a doom sayer.

            1) Hellions (yes hellions one of the worst units in current 40k) I feel might have high potential for 8th, They can DS and charge, most likely have amazing CC rules, and cheap enough to take a few small units to try to DS/charge to tie up units.

            2) PfP is a huge buff, always a 6+ to negate a wound, this is just AMAZING!

            3) DSing we get to pick when we want, DE are amazing at Null Deployment and DSing, this is a HUGE buff for the army. i’m expecting a lot of DSing from DE.

            4) DE shooting got A lot better.
            Poison now can hurt Vehicles, We have snipers (they seem to be good now), DL’s are D6 wounds just like Lascannons, Dis-Cannons always wounds 2x and both have Rend. Talos TL Splinter Cannons now will shoot 12x instead of 6 rerolling (both good, but higher potential) this means TL-Heat Lances might be really good!!! 2 shoot S6 Rend 2-4.

            5) The Bomber most likely will be worth it now,

            6) The Tantalus might be one of extremely strong vehicle (I see them nerfing it honestly how good it will be).

            Av 12 (T8-9) 6 Shots all 2W’s hits will all upgrades on it.

            “Again” I feel Harlequins/DE “MELEE OUT OF TRANSPORTS” are worst, not the armies themselves.

          • Koonitz

            My apologies. I’ve dealt with so much salt in these comments that I make my own assumptions…

          • J Mad

            Its ok, i’m not mad, just didnt want to come across the wrong way.

            There are many things i feel are much better, i LOVE, i mean FING Love the pistols in combat, ive been asking for this sense I started playing.

            This is the 1st thing i’ve seen that really concerns me b.c I have a large Harlequin and DE army (20k points between the two).

            I also understand why we cant Move the vehicle and then get out and charge, if vehicles are moving 16+” then you get out 6+” and charge 2d6 thats turn 1 charging.

            But on the other hand b.c its only T5, its hard for me to think about surviving that very important “I must sit and wait” moment.

          • Koonitz

            At least you’re waiting behind the ‘wall’ of your transport, and some of that firepower has to be used to destroy said transport, instead of straight on the unit that has to disembark first (not as much a problem with open-topped, but with Rhinos and the like, it should mean less casualties over all).

            Add in the fact that transports can charge in and distract the enemy so they can’t overwatch the unit, most likely with a very easy charge thanks to that incredibly fast movement, will make it a lot harder to hurt the squad before they do charge.

            A lot of people were all doom and gloom with the ability to fall back from combat being a way to keep shooting dominant, but I was always confident that it was less that, and more “a way to keep shooting relevant.” Because if assault units can engage the enemy with that level of ease (in addition to charging from deep strike and possibly outflank) and the shooting army CAN’T pull back, shooting would become almost useless against assault armies.

            After dealing with that, I’ve come to see that I’m wasting my energy being negative before we know the full picture. I guess I try to convince others of this standpoint with a bit more fervor then I should. 😛

          • J Mad

            Its also the idea that you can loose a 200+ point character when vehicles die on a roll of a 1 🙁

            If I wanted to support my melee character my IC’s needs to be in the vehicles with them. There will be games my IC’s will die due to rolling a 1.

            Im hoping those rolls are “pick what model dies” so i dont have to roll on my characters XD

            The charging thing sounds cool, i really hoping DE Blades/Chains/Plow upgrades on vehicles will help them in melee.

          • Koonitz

            That was, without a doubt, my biggest worry with these rules. Apparently the Kharadron Overlords rules are, effectively “roll 1 die per each model on the transport, for each 1 rolled, one of those models, chosen by the controlling player, dies.” This is regardless whether it’s one unit or more.

            Which does mean you can pick other models, but if the character is the only one on the transport, sucks to be him.

            It’s a big concern. Good thing I tend to prefer smaller support characters. I’m still super-hoping for a better psychic phase for my Librarians.

          • Xodis

            Thats when a Command Point comes into play. One of the first teasers mentioned using Command Points for a single reroll. To prevent that type of loss.

    • Spacefrisian

      I dunno i have been using paper vehicles since forever with my dark eldar, dont think they get better anyway. Its just again a step further away from the lore again.

    • AircoolUK

      No such thing as ‘jink’, just individual unit rules.

    • Alpharius

      Ummm… Toughness 5 with 6 wounds and a 4+ save will take 36 bolted HITS before being taken down. Before the Starweaver would only need 12 . So I’m not sure what you’re talking about. if you mean dedicated anti-tank weaponry like a melta, even that’s less likely to one-shot a starweaver than before (autopen with a 1 in 3 chance of blowing up vs. twos to wound doing D6 damage).

      • Koonitz

        A lascannon will be wounding on 3’s. S9 against T5, you’re not doubling it’s toughness for 2+.

        Now, in 7th, the Starweaver apparently has a 3+ jink save, and it relies on it. So we have to assume it has jinked. As such, you need to triple the number of bolter shots to destroy it. What’s 12 x 3?

        Oh yeah. 36. What a convenient number….

        Thanks for the initial math.

        • Alpharius

          Yeah…starweavers don’t have a 3+ jink. I don’t know where everyone got that from. I didn’t account for jink because we still don’t know if Starweavers in 8th will have jink or a kink-like ability. We saw a statline not the whole profile.

          • Koonitz

            Huh. Neat.

        • ILikeToColourRed

          its dark eldar raiders that have a boosted cover save in 7th, starweavers have a 5up invul

    • Marco Marantz

      The tactic might be to leap frog from cover to cover to gain a cover save but I agree, once shots get through transports are not tough.

    • Ben Koschnick

      Actually, lets analyse that for a second. Starweavers are currently Armour 10 with 2 hull points and a 4+ Jink. Against a Tactical squad with S4 bolters hitting on 3+, it will take an average of 36 shots to take it down. The new profile is T5 W6 with 4+ save. Wounding on a 5+ and no modifiers to the save will take an average of 54 shots to bring it down. That is before jink as we don’t know for certain how that will work yet

      So yes, the Starweaver is far more durable in the new edition, at least against a basic Tactical Squad. Adding in some anti-tank weapons will definitely help but that’s what you would expect anti-tank weapons to do. Ork Trukks will probably have 8-12 wounds with the same toughness, similar armour and a new version of Ramshackle helping out in some way.

    • ILikeToColourRed

      you do know theyre currently av10 with 2-3 hp (the dark eldar venom being 2, dont know about starweaver)

      so currently they die to one squad of bolters, looks like theyre getting more durable to me

  • Maitre Lord Ironfist

    It is better then Tankshock, but the circling Rino, driving over some Orcs does not leave my head. It is so silly.

    • CthulhuDawg

      I’m going to miss being able to route units off the board with tank shock that are too close to their deployment zone tbh. Also I had a lot of fun with Death or Glory. However it will make Ork vehicles more accurate to the fluff.

  • Parthis

    “Any unit dying on a 1 is going to make transports a little risky”

    Models* dying on a 1, and you choose which model.

    • Karru

      Actually, it doesn’t specify how it works. It could work in a way where you take one dice for each model and roll separately. So for example, if you have an Ork Boy unit with a Nob, 10 Boys and 1 Rokkit, you roll the Nob and the Rokkit separately. If they roll a 1, they die.

      • Parthis

        You’re right, it doesn’t say. exactly.. but it does highlight models; Models die on a 1, not units. You choose which models (as it’s wound allocation).

        Re your second point, there is a prescient; Kharadron Overlords.

        • Karru

          Where does it say YOU choose the model that dies?

          “It doesn’t all go Transports’ way though. Being inside an exploding vehicle is still bad news. Models inside a wrecked Transport will now die on the roll of a 1. This isn’t so bad for units like Orks and Guardsmen, who were used to taking a few casualties when losing their Transport, but is going to hurt a bit more for elite units, so be sure to put valuable units in your most durable Transports, like Land Raiders and Battlewagons.”

          • Farseerer

            It doesn’t say it anywhere but given how transports work in AoS and how the defending player chooses which models to remove as casualties from shooting, i’d say it’s the likely way it will work.

          • Karru

            Ah, I wasn’t aware of how it works in AoS. It is always a solid bet to make that they’ll just port rules from AoS to 40k.

          • Parthis

            I edited for a little clarity as you replied, but, it’s standard wound allocation; you roll a number of dice equal to a number of models embarked, and 1s kill a model of your choosing.

            Re multiple units, AoS doesn’t care, if it’s 10 models across two units, you just roll 10 dice and kill what you like. I think it’s a reasonable assumption that it works like this here, as the rules in AoS are really generalised.

          • AircoolUK

            One of the reasons why my kharadron grundstok gunnery sergeant is also my honour bearer as he’ll always be the last model to be removed.

            However, any models in the unit can be honour bearers, so as long as you model a flag/rock on the model… instant honour bearer.

            It’s a good system. Means that, outside of some rare tactical situations, you’re always going to be left with special weapons and squad leaders when removing casualties.

    • Farseerer

      it looks like they’re trying to get rid of a lot of the extra dice rolls to streamline 8th so I’d say owning player chooses is almost certainly going to be in place of randomly determining who dies when a transport explodes.

      • Parthis

        Yeah, I agree. Also the way the rules are written for the Overlords in AoS, i’d almost expect them to be lifted-wholesale and dropped into 40K.

  • Parthis

    Inb4 All of this makes Assault Armies useless.

    • Karru

      Oh boy, I’m waiting with excitement to see how much negativity we are going to get on the Tyranid article regarding Assaulting. Especially since it seems that ‘nids might finally get out of their pit of despair.

      • Parthis

        Yeah, Stealers are terrifying!

        • Karru

          Man, everything is terrifying in that army. I mean, they brought Swarms back for Emperor’s sake! Since Synapse now just outright ignores Morale, it will make Tyranids extremely hard to stop and since you can’t just turn a Battle Cannon against a unit of Warriors and just say “remove these models please”, it will be glorious.

          I just might start collecting them, if Orks don’t see a MASSIVE improvement.

          • AircoolUK

            Tau… Sniper… Drones…

            Hmmm. I wonder if Kroot keep their sniper rounds?

  • Tomoyuki Tanaka

    When I saw this line, “especially now that multiple units can share a single Transport up to its capacity.” I’m wondering where SilentPony is. So are you less worried about Characters now?

    • Farseerer

      Stop it with those inconvenient facts.

      • Tomoyuki Tanaka

        …huh?

        • Farseerer

          is jok

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Oh. I think I get it now. Ha ha.

  • Hendrik Booraem VI

    If you think a model with 5 toughness and 6 wounds and a 4+ save is loads more survivable than a model with 11 armor and 3 HP, I have to wonder what you’re smoking…

    • Farseerer

      Not if you do the maths counting Jink saves.
      Comparing across editions without the complete picture is pointless anyway.

      • ZeeLobby

        Which was part of his point. I mean im not shocked that the propoganda has been all positive, but if everything just gets better it changes nothing, lol.

        • Koonitz

          Well, we haven’t seen anything on ATSKNF, which means that, until we do, we’ve seen at least one nerf. Marines aren’t effectively immune to morale.

      • Koonitz

        Do the math with jink saves at it goes from 12 to 36. The exact same amount as it takes in 8th.

    • Djbz

      Star weavers are Armour 10 2 HP

    • Alpharius

      Starweavers are armour 10 and 2hp. It took 12 bolter hits before and now it’ll take 36. So 3 times as survivable…what are you smoking?

  • Gorsameth

    As a Tau (T’au) player I’m not a fan of the return to the time where everything gets to make it across the board to charge on turn 2. 🙁

    • Karru

      I for one welcome it. It’s so refreshing to finally be able to play a game where both sides are forced to move a bit more and not just turtle on their sides of the board and lob shells at each other until either one is pretty much dead.

    • Farseerer

      Yeah it doesn’t sound like static gunlines will be that effective anymore. What a terrible shame.

      Playing with or against a Tau gunline was only beaten in boringness by playing with or against deathstars (RIP).

      I’m sure with all of their high strength, high volume of fire weapons that Tau will be plenty powerful enough this edition. Playing them might require a bit more thought as opposed to blow everyone off the table and walk to the objectives turn 5.

      • Karru

        I remember when even a “boring” Tau Gunline was fun. We had this amazing guy in our club a long time ago, back in 5th edition, who played Tau very well. He used Kroot to shield his Fire Warriors from chargers.

        Yeah, I am sure that a good chunk of people are going to miss the Tau special. Take nothing but long range firepower and laugh as your opponent will never have hope reaching your side of the board.

    • Hussein Alobaidi

      Yeah, assault armies don’t share this view xD

    • Scatter 667

      yeah, i’m right there with you. I think it will be much harder for tau now to blast their opponent off the table before they reach them. I totally see the problem, that playing might now be more complicated and most likely will involve more tactics. That will be a huge change and i’m not sure how people will take those changes, since it will change the game experience quiet a lot for them and they might find themselves in a position they don’t enjoy the game anymore since it totally changed. I hope they will stay and try to get used to it;-)

      • euansmith

        I’m hoping that Vespids get some cool rules.

    • You can still withdraw now with all your T’au and suits do it really well on top.

    • Nilok

      The good news is that faster vehicles look like they are going to be much softer targets than in the past to T’au small arms fire. That Starweaver is going to be taking wounds on 4s instead of 5s.

    • AircoolUK

      Time to practice your defence in depth, bait and switch and whatever Tau call defence in depth with bait and switch (something to do with canyons and monkeys).

    • euansmith

      You get a turn in which to shoot as much stuff as you can; then you send in the Kroot to act as a speed bump to maybe give you another round of shooting. 😉

  • So, does anyone know if vehicles still can turbo-boost or run or advance or something? Being to double (or add another 12″ to) the Starweaver’s 16″ would be much welcome, but I’d wet my pants if Imperial Knights could double their 12″ move.

    • Farseerer

      My guess is that it will be in the Dataslate of the unit so some will and some won’t.

      12” is far enough for those knights

      • Yea, that’s what I was hoping, just wondering if we already heard some real details about it.

        • Karru

          I remember seeing something about Vehicles getting to “Advance”.

          Most likely some vehicles will have their own special rules that allow them to move much faster instead of doing anything else, like the Eldar Star Engines.

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      In one of the earliest preview articles, the one about movement, they stated that any unit may Advance d6 in addition to their movement score at the expense of their shooting. No word on its impact (if any) to assault

  • Nyyppä

    Would have let them move before disembarkation but other than that it’s fine.

    • Xodis

      That will probably be part of Assault Vehicles like Land Raiders to give them that extra edge.

      • Nyyppä

        Sounds reasonable.

      • chiah.

  • Thomas

    Is it just me or was the old AV system much more durable than this?

    Still, glad to have charging from vehicles. My Templars can now ride in Rhinos instead of Land Raiders.

    • SprinkKnoT

      I think on average it’s about the same, but in worst case AV was far worse.
      – Lascannons now wound most/all vehicles on a 3+, better for low AV things, the same for AV12, and worse for AV13+
      – A single lascannon shot will never destroy a vehicle with more than 6 wounds vs. the old system a single lascannon always had a 1/6 chance to destroy a vehicle if it penetrated and it had another 1/3 chance to stop it from moving (1/6 if you ignored crew stunned)
      – Light weapons do pose a threat though, but for low AV vehicles they always did, but now you get a save

      • MechBattler

        Which, when you considered that it was never just a single armor busting weapon firing at your metal bawkses, meant that there was a very high chance your pinata transports would be exploded open in a single turn. Unless it’s a Wave Serpent. F*ck Eldar.

  • Manuel Bateman

    at the start of the movement phase..
    thats quite an disadvantage. not only do you have to plan one turn ahaead basically but your opponent has a full turn to react, retreat his units or worse surround your transport and blow it up (and all embarked units with it)!
    sounds to me transports are even harder to use for pure assault troops

    • SprinkKnoT

      Your opponent had a turn to react before; the transport would move up, they unit would get out, and then do nothing in most cases. The whole game is about planning ahead, that’s the strategy of 40K.

      • Maitre Lord Ironfist

        maybe assault vehicles allow you to move x” before you disembark or a longer disembark range.

        I am quite curious if a landraider will be better for assault then a rino. But still, finaly repentia are more worth it, sicne you do not need a landraider from some superfrieds. It lowers the poits so much x)

        • Xodis

          I’m guessing {move the LandRaiders full movement>Disembark but no movement>May charge} will be the structure for Assault Vehicles.

    • Parthis

      You talk as though planning is a bad thing… i’m really happy with this. Prevents Rhino-rush nonsense. If charging out of transports is a thing again, being able to do it turn one shouldn’t be.

      When you have transports that can move 16″, with a 3″ disembark and a 2D6″ charge, you need limits.

    • AircoolUK

      Well… you’ve got to make some effort at positioning.

    • Alpharius

      You did read that the unit gets to do their full move AFTER disembarkation? So say a trukk full of Boyz. In 7th the trukk would move 6″ and then the Boyz disembark 6″. Now they disembark and THEN move 6″. So depending on how far they get to disembark it shouldn’t be a problem, especially now it looks like vehicles are going o be faster (16″ move on the sky weaver for example). Assaulting out of any vehicle is a huge buff to assault in general, I don’t know how you can so its going to be harder for assault troops.

    • Defenestratus

      You mean basically the way it was before 6th edition?

      This is so much better than it stands now, it’s not even funny.

    • Manuel Bateman

      all true. only thing i am worried about is the possibility that say you move up a expensive unit in a transport to engange next round. the opponent surrounds the transport with an unit of guardsmen eg. and and blows it up with a couple of lascannons or whatever.
      your expensive unit would be instantly destroyed since it cannot disembark.

  • Porty1119

    I just realized that I’m actually excited by the goings-on in 8th. Maybe enough to dust off my collection; I have a 1000pt IG Air Cav army that just needs a strip and repaint job because my skills improved since high school.

  • Vayle

    “Transports are important to an infantry heavy army”

    As a skitarii player i beg to differ

  • I am a little confused by the dying in wrecked vehicles rule. I read it as a roll for each model, but then you see the other one talking about a roll for the unit… not that it makes too much difference to me as my forces are normally footslogging it. 😉

  • This Dave

    This still doesn’t look too good for Orks. They have to drive up and sit there for a turn and hope their Trukk doesn’t get blown up and the survivor said shot to pieces before they can put the boot in.

    I guess this means there’s will be a lot more Battlewagons rolling around now.