Goatboy’s 40k Thoughts: What’s Next for the Nerf?

Goatboy here again and wow wasn’t that an interesting FAQ. Here’s who I think gets the NERF bat next.

Goatboy here again and wow wasn’t that an interesting FAQ.  I know one was coming but I didn’t expect it this soon.  I am pretty happy with it as my current army wasn’t really effected (Daemons) but I know how rough it can be for some people who were planning, buying, and building armies.  It is safe to say if you suspect your choice might be too cheap or that you are able to spam too many things – it is probably next on the chopping block.  I think that is the biggest thing to take from all of this – skating the edge of too good means that most likely it will be fixed.  Especially since GW is currently on top and listened to by a good deal of TO’s that are helping playtest and generate their Matched play game.

Spam canary in a coalmine

Nerf Hints

But enough about that – let’s think about what is next up.  The best way to see if a unit is too good is if a player is willing to take a ton of them.  Look at all the lists that were “nerfed” with this FAQ.  Massed Flyers got the most interesting change in that while they didn’t increase their point cost or limit how many you could take (all things I thought they would do), they instead changed how they interacted in the game by not really being on the table.  This is huge as it effectively hurts all flyers the same and doesn’t directly pick out the so callled “bad for the game” units.  I found it extremely interesting as it was a ruling I never expected.

The Razorwing Flock was a much needed nerf as they were too cost effective for the points they cost.  I think if they were not mixed with Ynarri or didn’t get the Ynarri keyword they might have been ok as they would lose “fearless” and some other Soulburst abilities.  Still the army is cut in half and having 60 birds which are extremely weak is a heck of a lot easier to deal with.  This probably guts this army completely from the game and only leaves a few other “hordes” available to play with and against.  This leaves us with a few other Horde choices that might get the Nerf Bat.  Brimstone Horrors are most likely the next one on the list – with the chatter I hear and the overall competitive feeling they are most likely going to get “fixed”.  I don’t know if that means more points, less rules, or a change in how they interact.  I think if these guys get fixed there are a few other units to look at as well.

Next “victims”?

The next too cheap culprit right now is the AM side of things in general.  A lot of their guns are too cheap to be placed on a body that can get certain orders, hits on a 3+, or just can be taken in a large amount.  I am sure you have all heard about the massed mortar armies currently getting put together by some players.  It feels like the Conscript, at 3 pts a piece, feel way to cheap when you mix in some of the Aura, Orders, and Character Abilities.  The leadership fixing available with the Commissar makes the unit an issue.  As well as the ability to wound everything – it feels like their 3 points are just – too cheap for the game.

The other big point change in the FAQ was the renerf of the Purestrain Stealers for the GSC.  It was a bitter sweet change as a client was looking to have me paint a big batch.  I am not sure if the points are incorrect on them – as the Nid version is a heck of a lot cheaper and wondering how much the Cult Ambush is really worth.  Still this change feels a bit sour especially with the incorrectly set up points for the other options in the GSC army.  Will see if they change whenever the new book comes out.

The “nerf” to Soulburst is rather interesting as it helps clean up their playing as you have to complete your units “actions” before you can get the option to soulburst.  It made for some weird games as you started an attack, blew something up, and then made another action before finishing your action.  I still think this ability is crazy powerful and this just makes it easier to manage, play with and against.  The lock of needing a Ynarri character as your warlord to become Ynarri is pretty dang huge as it forces specific characters to allow your “non ynarri” initial units to become followers of the Death God.  It makes more Fluff sense but it feels counter intuitive from a game mechanic sense.

We finally got some answers to if you can Warptime some friends that come in from Space for Chaos Space Marines.  That is pretty good and how a lot of TO’s played it.  You also got your answer on the Tau side of things if they can respond to the Jump and other movement powers.  Orks still continue to look good with one of the best “horde” units in the game with just the plan Jane Ork Boyz.  6 points gets you a crap ton of attacks and mixed with especially powerful Leadership tricks it means a normal TAC Ork list can kick the crap out of you.  I think this army will shine when we get Ork Clans coming out just like the thought of “new” Legion rules.

Roboute is all we need.

I looked at the Space Marine book a bit and there are a lot of little things that sound interesting.  I think Sternguard can be a good clean up unit especially some of the Command Point usage abilities.  Wounding most of things on a 4+ will be rough and I suspect a more Tactical based Marine horde might be good.  Of course this means you need the King of the Blue dudes – Roboute himself to lead it.  I think a Templar horde might actually do good too and wonder if a Jump Pack Captain with a 6 inch Heroic Intervention might actually be strong.  Plus the ability to stop a spell as needed, reroll charges, and cover the table in “cheap” black armor jerks just seems good.  I also like the Raven Guard army as well.  Of course it is really weird there isn’t any more Rifleman dreads and other things in the new book – it means GW doesn’t have to make that kit anymore.  It begs the question on how events will allow these things or if they will see – X things are no longer allowed etc.  Being the first “book” in the new edition is usually a bad thing so will see how the Marines fare as the other books rear their mean heads.  It feels like Death Guard will be next with what I am sure is a big White Dwarf release.

Suck it Death Guard… I’m next!

 

Is there anything else you feel is too strong right now?  Are you enjoying these fixes?  Are you ready to burn it all down and just start playing competitive Pokemon?  How many armies have you started and had to stop as your dreams get crushed under the boot of being “too good”?  I know this BAO has me playing things that will most likely get tweaked when the real books come out so I am not investing a ton of time beyond having things painted to a decent standard.  I can just sit and wait and hope my plastic models get better when the new “pink” text is added to my relevant FAQ.

~Who do you think is getting nerfbat whacked next?

  • Simon Chatterley

    What FAQ addressed the warptime from space query?

    I can see one which says if you are set up from Reserves you need to roll a 9 to charge? So I guess that is the one?

    Not really super clear…

    • Nugget7211

      I think it’s the chaos specific one, although I’m not 100%

    • arkhanist

      They updated the FAQs on warhammer community, but not on the main GW site yet.

      https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

      It’s in the new chaos FAQ;
      Q: When I manifest the Warptime psychic power, can I select a unit that arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements this turn?
      A: Yes.

      • Simon Chatterley

        Yeah one of my Gaming group sorted me out..I was baffled as I had the ones from the website

  • GravesDisease

    Competitive pokemon is ridiculously deep. I thought i was ready, but damn it’s a technical game.

    • Bradley Macduff

      it actually is, theres a lot of subtlty in competitive pokemon. and a lot of in depth thought. though as you play rotations you start to notice the same old crutches being leaned on. cards like N, lysander, fighting band/silver bangle and so on

  • AircoolUK

    I think they cut the Rifleman Dreads because you need a Forge World item to make the model. You could easily convert a few autocannon’s from other GW models, but I think they’re definitely going for a ‘if it’s not in the box, it’s not in the rules’ approach.

    I think that’s a good idea and fits well with the Power Level system as generally, you don’t get the ultra-tricked-out units unless you buy several boxes and combine the special weapons.

    As for army building. I’m the same as a lot of people. I’ll buy the models I like and make an army based around detachments. I’ve tried building min/max’d army lists before, but found it boring having to make and paint units that didn’t interest me or had to be spammed.

    At least we can be confident that GW are looking to keep the game fresh. The more feedback and data they have, the more they can work towards clean rules and balance. Some people may scoff with cynicism, but the new direction is clear to see and the latest FAQ is a positive start.

    • Hendrik Booraem VI

      So do you think Rifleman dreads will be a thing in an Imperial Armour book, or are they gone for good? I have two of them and they are really fantastic now in 8th edition. I was hoping to use them in more than just 2 battles.

      • Spacefrisian

        Just use the index for those.

      • highwind

        They ARE in the imperial armor book which is out for weeks now!

        People crying about losing the option in the space marine codex are just rerarded monkeys… It has always been a forgeworld kit so its rules are obviously to be expected in a forgeworld book!

        • Hendrik Booraem VI

          I don’t want to buy the Imperial Armor books on top of Indexes and Codexes. But I’ll stick with the Indexes, since I already have those. Thanks.

          • Koonitz

            GW has already clarified that any datasheet in the index, but not included in the codex, may still be used via the index. For instance, the special edition Imperial Space Marine model is NOT in the codex.

            If anyone cries about the loss of all the Space Marine characters on bikes, tell them to just use the index datasheets. They’re all fine and still perfectly usable.

          • Geronimo32509

            Sorry for being lazy, and I fully admit it, but do you have a source for that? I’ve seen you post that twice now, but I don’t recall ever seeing GW say it anywhere.

      • davepak

        IF gw were smart, there would be a plastic “weapons upgrade kit” with dred and razorback weapons in it.
        It would be like printing money.

    • paxter

      its not cut in GW own words: units, and upgrades missing from the codex space marines can be used via the index… ppl seriously do read more…

      • Hendrik Booraem VI

        Awesome, thanks.

      • AircoolUK

        Cut from the codex, not the game.

  • I don’t give half a damn about my army of preference getting “nerf’d”. Especially not nearly enough to stop wanting to collect them or read more about them.
    This ain’t an MMO like Final Fantasy XIV where the latest expansion had massive “balance” changes for all Jobs to the point where many veterans feel alienated with the new direction their character is supposed to take according to the devs These are points changes and fixes to broken nonsense the spamlords used to ruin people’s day. I can only see this as a good thing, and as a fluff-focused person, I couldn’t care less.

    • Damistar

      “Spamlords”. Lol thanks for the new word!

      • Xodis

        I prefer it my way “Lord of the SPAM”.
        Hobbits on a quest to throw a can of SPAM in a volcano because its the only way to cook that stuff….good times.

  • Stealthbadger

    Conscripts? Really though? Just because they didn’t fall over to someone’s meta spam list? Plus they need the points cost of the supporting characters. If you don’t want them shooting just charge them. Not only will they collapse like wet tissue you can then probably consolidate into combats for the rest of the game as just trying to fit that many models in your deployment zone is a challenge. What am I missing here?

    They need 5’s to hit and 5’s to wound most of the time and everything gets a save.

    Guard are squishy as heck generally and their vehicles are pricey. Can a more competitive minded player point me to why guard are now a power army as I’m struggling to be honest, yes you can bring all the models in the world but an alpha strike will wipe half your army with no saving throws.

    Also those guns only ever hit half the time, 20 point lascannons that only hit 50% of the time? You’ll need six of them then, and then they die to a stiff breeze at 6 T3 wounds.

    • James Regan

      thing with the lascannons is more reliable, higher point cost las cannons are only 1/6th better at lascannoning- the lack of reliability of 4+ to hit rolls is often overstated, because very little has better than 3+ anyway. You can probably add in far more than an extra 1 in 6 compared to other lascannon bearing things, especially if they have points invested in survivability (yes, you’ll die quick, but compared to say a predator, you might get off more lascannon shots before doing so than the predator gets in the extra time it survives- you just have to be prepared for guard using the whole ‘bury them under a pile of our own corpses’ strategy and suck up the casualties)

      • Stealthbadger

        Fair point. They still die easy though compared to say a Dev squad in cover with the same weapon. Based on my terrible rolls I’d take the marines in cover over guard teams all day every day 🙂

      • Thomson

        Not 1/6. A 4+ lascannon hits 50% of the time, a 3+ lascannon 66.6%. 66.6/50 = 1.33 which is exactly the price difference from space marine weapons to guard weapons.

    • Karru

      Indeed. Guard has it rough already with the way GW decided to make the detachment work and the extremely annoying unit splitting they did. With only two Troop Choices available to them, Infantry Squads and Conscripts, with Conscripts being literally nothing but fodder with close to zero damage potential alone, I don’t see a single reason why they should be nerfed.

      Before anyone starts complaining that they should be nerfed, check everything you need in order to make them “nerfbat worthy” and then see how much of that comes from their supporting characters and not the Conscripts themselves. Without Commissars, they will melt to enemy fire stupidly fast. Without Commanders, they can’t do any real damage, and even then it is very little that they can do. Conscripts are good for one thing only and that is to soak up assaults for the main line.

      So no, Conscripts are in no need to be nerfed. Guard armies are pretty much defaulted to Brigade detachment due to their immense need for non-troop slots, so that means lots and lots of Infantry Squads and/or Conscripts as mandatory choices. If they nerf Conscripts to the ground by increasing their points, Guard army loses its meatshield. With that loss, they will get overwhelmed by fast Assault Armies that can just lock most Infantry Squads into CC, especially as we see GW pushing out more and more rules to assist with first turn charges.

      • Stealthbadger

        Also maybe if people actually used their darn troops choices to fight mass fire with better mass fire rather than trying to spam the single cheese unit in their index they wouldn’t struggle.

        Also snipers eat guard characters for breakfast. So you know, use tactics?

        • Karru

          Yeah.

          “My 16 Characters and 20 guys lost to this guy with lots of models, please nerf!”

          Gotta love people that refuse to adapt instead of actually, you know, adapting.

          • Stealthbadger

            Exactly this. If you want to bring that sort of list that’s ok but you have to accept there will be a hard counter.

            What next?ork boys over ran my three knights? Please nerf.

        • Frostasche

          Aren’t we overreacting alittle?

          And your suggestion other players should fight IG with mass fire troop choices is weird. For example, you can not really believe that a Drukhari player would have the slightest chance with that apporach? Even your conscripts would rip the Kabalite Warriors apart. Most other armies are not able to compete with IG in mass fire. So your suggestion how they are deafatable, is only doable if the cheap IG units get nerfed? Why are you giving arguments against your position?

          • Stealthbadger

            I don’t think I’m reacting much at all but intonation is always hard to tell in comments. 🙂

            Your example is fine. You don’t use mass infantry there, instead use superior mobility and close combat then. Then point is that it’s not like any army has a no counter to t3 conscripts. If an army can’t handle this type of target you’ve probably got bigger issues.

            My point was don’t bring a hyper buffed low model count army and expect to wipe out a hoard army. They are the rock to your scissors. It doesn’t mean rock needs to be made of paper.

          • Frostasche

            To be fair a dark eldar unit got nerfed, because its synergy was too good in a ynnari army.

            And i was talking about the reaction overall, not specially yours. Screaming the troop choices are totally underpowered with arguments like IG got hit pretty hard with the troop choices, the conscripts do almost zero damage, they are totally worthless, if you just look at them alone, …. And well if you look just at the drukhari troop choices alone and so reasoning on the same level, and compare them with IG, i would say they stand no chances against guards and conscripts. Your mass fire example, was just an example i took.

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        It annoys me that I can only like this comment once. If they nerf conscripts then the trend of hurting anything that makes IG or Orks or any non Eldar, Tau etc high end army at the same mark as last edition! Did a lot of armies take a hit? Sure but some weapons were overpowered by so much that other weapon choices were never used. I watched a game of Orks vs IG on Saturday and the IG were steamrollered. It was mostly normal Boyz and was a pretty balanced list. I the IG guy was playing all over the place with mech, artillery, flyers and no real plan. He was mad for most of the game as he wasn’t able to deal with 100+ boyz jumping around the board and not dying to his firepower. Should we nerf a basic troops selection that actually plays to the fluff of the army and makes Orks competite once again? Not to mention sells a ton of models for GW! Rant over, awesome comment Karru!

        • Stealthbadger

          So what your saying now is the that two people used standard lists but the better player won?

          Heresy.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Pretty much. I got to hear a fun “discussion” at the store today. Apparently only Eldar and Tau were nerfed and all the other armies buffed. Sadly this was from a guy who is a known netlister and is pissed that his Eldar now have to use troops other than scatbikes. Funny how some of the people who blather on about armies needing to be balanced really mean all armies but their own.

          • Stealthbadger

            This is pretty much how BoLS authors write their ‘balance’ articles. There’s another one on lascannons where reading between the lines it’s clear that they either a spam tactic didn’t work therefore the unit is ‘garbage’ or they got beaten by something so it needs nerfing.

            Basically A B C, author, bias , context.

            Here author = goatboy, nice chap I’m sure but complains about cheesy armies whilst proposing cheesy armies. I.e. Only I get to use cheese and am justified in doing so because of x.

            Bias:- recently played a game wi standard cheese list and found it couldn’t deal with mass conscripts so he lost. It’s definitely not the fact his army build had a critical weakness due to cheese composition. It’s definitely that t3 bs5 str3 guardsmen are OP…

            Context:- BoLS we print any old tripe for the attention.

    • BJ Mickle

      I would think that raising the cost of the conscript from 3 to 4 is about right. As it stands, the standard guardsman is 6 points, the conscript 3. For those extra 3 points, you get +1 BS, +1 WS, +3 Ld, and weapon options. The WS is largely irrelevant. The Leadership loss is an issue, if you didn’t have the commissar or other ways to use other’s leadership so easily. So I see there being two ways to balance this. Raise the point cost by 1 but allowing special weapons at a rate of 1 per 15, or make it to where the unit loses more than a single model from a commissar’s ability, say a d3 or d6.

      • Stealthbadger

        Standard guardsmen is 4 points I think so this would make conscripts redundant.

        • BJ Mickle

          You are absolutely right. Dang it. And I even play primarily guard…

          • Stealthbadger

            I think it’s cheaper than 7th that’s why. I’m sure inf squads used to be 50 points all in.

            I always liked the 1d4chan analysis of conscripts. 1 point for las gun, 1 point for frag grenade, 1 point for flak armour. Human for free as life in th imperium is cheap.

            At least infantry squad humans cost a point too!

          • Thomson

            Nope, the infantry squad humans don’t cost a point. Its their rank insignia that you have to pay for. Conscripts don’t have them, so they are cheaper.

        • Charles Keeling

          Conscripts need to be 4ppm, they have a very special rule called ’20-50 models’. That rule condenses drops, streamlines buffs (commissars, priests, first tank, move move move) and cover massively the board all over the place. They are just as good as infantry and both are viable.

          • Stealthbadger

            I’m afraid I’m not with you on this.

            They have worse stats, hitting on 5’s with an already pants weapon. Also as you yourself say, they need buffs (commissar, orders etc. more so than infantry platoons) so their cost already accounts for that. The worse stats then make the buffs less effective as they’re unlikely to hit.

            The only thing that it helps with is drops but the quick lesson I learned is you’re guard, GW screwed you with a fairly horrible decision on first turn mechanic. You’ll never go first. Ever. Even if you go full conscripts.

            The real issue is why do people feel the need to bring 150 conscripts?

          • Charles Keeling

            Because it mind numbingly effective. Drones are worthless by themselves, as are other support characters. Being able to take 50 in a squad is as powerful as being stuck at exactly 10 models + gear..

          • Charles Keeling

            Why we’re 35 point drop pods the bane of multiple editions of 40k? Why we’re the free models in the gladius? Why are brimstone horrors a mess currently? The answer to all of it is it’s cost. Of course conscripts work better with buffs, they work insanely well with them, thus they need something. The mechanic in place to change things is points, thus only way to go is up

          • Karru

            Sorry but if I had to choose between taking Conscripts and Infantry Squads that costed the exact same in terms of points, I would absolutely never take Conscripts. There would be literally no point.

            With the current system and the price of Guard HQs, I would just take my usual Brigade and then just spam Battalions with barebones Infantry Squads as its mandatory Troops. Why put all eggs into one basket with 20 Conscripts when I can do it much better by having 2 10-man Infantry Squads with better stats running around?

            No reason, that is the answer.

  • orionburn

    Since my uber power gamer friend pointed out you could make a 1200 point list using something like 600 brimstone horrors running around smiting everything into oblivion that one is probably going to be on the chopping block soon. For anybody currently looking to spend $2000 on a crap army list like that because they’re that desperate to win, by all means, go for it. That squeeky sound of the nerf bat hitting you will sound all the sweeter…lol.

    • Stealthbadger

      It’s just a different mind set of finding the most efficient unit and then using it to extremes. These people play to win, nothing wrong with that. The issue comes from people like myself who are collectors, usually buy one of everything and then try to use the less effective models in games against one of those optimised lists. I play because I find it fun but definitely don’t really engage much brain when doing so other than thinking I hope unit x does something amazing today because it looks so cool

      My greatest hope is that given time, and the new codexes 8th is going to fix this challenge.

      • orionburn

        There’s nothing wrong with wanting to win, but there’s a line of building super broken/cheesey lists that nobody wants to play.

        I’m with you in that I build and play the models that I like. Not because I crunched their numbers on a stats sheet to see how good they are in the game. I think the cycle of fixing units in the game is going to take a good while but it’s nice to see GW being proactive on issues.

        • Graham Bartram

          I don’t like my army to be too powerful, it diminishes my bragging rights. XD

          • Xodis

            Thats why I always made a point to bring Raptors, they always sucked since 5e, so if I won, you would hear about it.

        • David

          If people didn’t want to play them why do so many exhist

    • AircoolUK

      And with each nerf to the spam, the fluff becomes even more removed from the tabletop.

  • Heinz Fiction

    ” I found it extremely interesting as it was a ruling I never expected”

    Weren’t flyers ruled the way the are now at some point in the past already? I’m not sure cause I never used them but not counting as remaining models sounds familiar to me…

    • jonathon

      “zooming” flyers just couldn’t count as scoring previously.

  • Spacefrisian

    Alphastrike could be nerfed, maybe with a strategem. The 1 going 2nd can pay 2 cp and change who goes 1st in a roll of. The 1 with the highest score goes first, the other cannot use this strategem nor can they try and seize the initiative.

    • Karru

      Other option is to just give a 2CP Stratagem that allows you to Seize the Initiative with a 4+ instead of a 6+.

      • David

        So as guard going in with 13 cp I spend 3 cp on a 4+ rerollable seize and have a better chance of going first than the low unit count army

        • Karru

          Yes. This system rewards people that use the CP Detachments to their fullest, meaning they use more varied armies as a result. You could also add a small little text to the end that reads “This roll can never be re-rolled” and now you only have that 50/50 chance.

    • davepak

      changing who goes first does not affect how dangerous and alpha strike is – you still have an alpha strike.

      • Charles Keeling

        Make a stratagem that allows you to force so many units into reserve that comes in 2nd turn. Have it so you can only use it if you go second.

      • AircoolUK

        I did prefer WHFB several decades ago where you basically had about 1.5 turns of strategic movement before anything was in engagement range. Mind you, terrain was a big feature; not because there was lots of it, but because the units were large and had to be carefully manoeuvred.

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          And then 8th came along and terrain became a minor inconvenience. People used to be scared of running into woods as you could get stuck in it for a few turns.

  • 40KstillRulesTheTT

    Genestealer Cult is not currently playable really, mine have returned to the shadows, and will remain there until GW understands that the “cult ambush” rule is not worth many points:
    Genestealers should be 13-14 points
    Acolytes should be 7-8 points
    Metamorphs should be 8-9 points
    The rest is fine, but it is the bulk of the army which is way too expensive !
    I don’t know but i don’t think their codex is coming any time soon as it is a very “small” army… 🙁

    • Jason

      I totally agree on the points! I also feel like the Metamorphs need something done to them so they have a purpose. I can’t justify using them when a purestrain genestealer is cheaper and does everything better.

      • memitchell

        Sometimes a nerf only seems like a nerf. Purestrains in the GSC were a ridiculous 18 pts. Ambush ain’t THAT good. So, they FAQ(1) dropped to 10 pts. That made Purestrains cheaper than Acolytes and Metamorphs. So, why bring’em at all? So, Purestrains got FAQ(2) bumped up by 50% to 15 points. That’s still too high, but it makes A’s & M’s seem more viable. I suppose an all ambushing Purestrain army is a spam/WAAC thing to be feared, But, it’s the only GSC build I can see that is very scary. I guess.

        • Xodis

          Thats where the WAAC thing gets fuzzy, because honestly an all ambushing Purestrain Genestealer army sounds about as fluffy as it gets. I dont know how dangerous or crappy that army would be to play against, but I definitely couldnt call that player a WAAC player.

    • memitchell

      It’s kind of hard to figure. A neophyte squad is basically I-Guard with one better Ld., and more flexibility. But, can’t be given orders. And, cost one point more. Acolytes are a little better than basic Ork boys, but twice as pricey. And, not as tough. They can’t shoot as good as Neo’s, but can’t fight as good as Purestrains. They need to be tougher and harder to kill. Lowering their points is a two edged sword. It would be expensive ($) to field a bunch.
      Ambush is OK, but “Deepstriking ability” is by no means unique. Except Ambush is random. Bring back the return from the dead thing in last edition.

  • highwind

    Elysian Command Squad

    5 Deep-strikeable Plasma Guns for no points, limited just by the number of Elite slots you can take

    • TheSlann

      4.

      And it will probably be in the next faq that you need commanders, just like normal guard

  • Bakvrad

    Make the brimstones explode, as soon as they have cast their spell ^^ like in warhammer quest 😀

    • orionburn

      That’s a pretty good idea…

    • Koonitz

      They do. Each time a Horror unit manifests smite, you pick a Horror model in the unit to be the source. If a brimstone base is picked, the base is removed after the attempt is made.

      • Bakvrad

        Hihi i Love it ^^

  • Alpha striking became the obvious tactic that a lot of people have latched on to because its so easy to do and so effective.

    Typical gw rules IMO. They purposely provide easy-mode in every edition.

    • georgelabour

      They also repeatedly say ‘don’t be a dingus’, or some equivalent there of, in the same set of rules.

      • Xodis

        Yeah but thats the thing with the dingus people…they dont know they are dingus’

        • georgelabour

          Then be a chum and print out the page of the rules where GW tells them they suck and should stop.

          Then when they’re being a dingus you just tape it to their foreheads and perform the ‘stop being a scrub’ dance.

          • AircoolUK

            Yep, you don’t need a rule in the rulebook to tell someone to get stuffed.

            Mind you, some players would probably try and argue that because there’s no GW rule, you can’t politely tell them where to go.

            At that point, you’re pretty much going to have to resort to extremely offensive language and ‘reasonable force’.

            For some reason, deodorant works a bit like insect repellent.

      • They do yes but they’ve been saying that for 25 years and its never worked. Min/maxers going to min/max and wreck the game unless you too are min/maxing.

        • georgelabour

          Welp the solution to that is simple.

          We all need to petition our governments to allow GW to purge power gaming ‘heretitcs’ from the collective consciousness. Preferably with fire.

  • Defenestratus

    So glad I don’t care about points.

  • Jabberwokk

    I’m glad Tyranids were not mentioned once for nerfing(cult was though…meh).

    I got 36 genestealers and a flock of carnifexs And I’m quite happy with the game right now.

  • Brian Carraway

    There is a simple fix for the Tzeentch Horror situation. Simply make Pink Horrors the only purchasable option, and treat the split into Blue/Brimstone Horrors as an upgrade only.

    • Koonitz

      Despite my agreement with that, the problem is that it would see a dramatic drop in sales of blue/brimstone boxes as no one likes the idea of holding reserve points for models that may or may not ever see the board. People might field pinks, but never blue/brimstone.

      Personally, I feel limiting brimstones to split only would be fine. Blues, at 5 points each, are a reasonable ‘cheap’ troops that aren’t horrendously spammable, and since brimstones are so dirt cheap and come in the same box, people might still put 20 points aside for their split.

      • Brian Carraway

        Not if done properly. Instead that reinforcement nonsense, make it an upgrade. Pink Horrors could be 8-9 points per, +5 points for the ability to split into Blue and brimstones, and it would have to be an all or nothing purchase. I see little value in the way it is currently set up as why on Earth would I pay for a unit to possibly show up bs simply fielding them normally.

  • davepak

    The SM flyers still need adjustment – they are just too amazing for the points (this is why it was SM flyer spam, and not necron d-scythe spam). GW’s fix, was clever, but an army with a bunch of flyers and robbie is still a challenge (you can’t target robbie unilt the flyers are dead – and you don’t want to get next to robbie…).

    We also have to be careful looking at spam – is a unit being spammed because it is REALLY good (storm ravens) or because the other options are bad (old flyrant spam).

    For example, tyranid players did not spam flyrants last edition because they were OP, they spammed them because the crone, harpy and trygon were bad. tau players are using a lot of commanders – this is because crisis suits and broadsides are overcosted – so the fix is not always nerf the unit that is being spammed.

  • mgdavey

    I think it’s a mistake to raise the cost of units like conscripts the abuse of which relies on some other unit/synergy. They should just modify the special rules or keywords to nullify the abuse, not prevent the unit from being used as it was originally intended. If you make conscripts more expensive then they will not be taken EXCEPT by players looking to buff them in all sorts of cheesy ways. Make the buff expensive, not the unit.

  • David

    Having run the mortar’s a few times they seem more balanced than I originally thought sure they have a great range but their damage output isn’t brilliant and they die to anything you 6 units of them to do anything noticeable. if I was to fix anything about them it would be to have unit sizes of 3-6 that way you wouldn’t need to burn so many slots and could field a more diverse army.

    The other point to consider is that commissars arn’t so may negate bonuses when the codex comes out.

    As to the conscripts not fully tested them yet but to while it may be 3 pt/ conscript base to get all those bonuses its more like 6+pts /conscript still strong but not as efficient and even a 1pt raise nukes them you would be better off taxing commissars/priests

    • Karru

      I am not exactly sure what you mean by your comment regarding bonuses, but if you mean that Guard wouldn’t be able to use them without losing their “codex traits”, I can safely say that there is nothing to worry about.

      In order to be an SM Battleforged Detachment, all your units must have the Adeptus Astartes Keyword. Traits are linked to the keyword. You can take Servitors in an SM army even though they lack the Keyword.

      So for Guard, it would simply mean that they require the Keyword, which Commissars have.

  • Bonemaw

    I play daemons and I hope they would just make it so you can only take Pink horrors but then the split is included in the price. Just make pink horrors 17 points or so. That would prevent spamming brimstone as they would have to be triggered from Pink to blue to brimstone and a min unit of pinks would be 170 points (if they cost 17 points per guy). It would still be 50 effective wounds. But way less spammy than before and less smite as well.

  • Pete McGwire

    Smite spam is a problem. Smite is much too easy to get off, it needs to be at least a 7+ to cast.

    • Nameless

      might make it a challenge for the units that only get to cast on 1 dice (unless they get a d10)

  • Sparowl

    “I think this army will shine when we get Ork Clans coming out…”

    In a few years, we can worry about that. Since we’ll be on the third or fourth iteration of Codex Space Marines, I’m sure they’ll have the answer.

    I understand that balance is hard, but if you nerf the way that Orks are meant to be played – i.e. as a horde of boyz – then wtf are Orks meant to be?

  • ReveredChaplainDrake

    The Swarmlord worries me. No questioning, it’s a blatant crutch and easily the best thing in the codex. Just about all serious Tyranid discussion revolves around the thing. (And Malanthropes, but so many typos abound with that thing that I’m too antsy to sink $100 into one of my own for it to be “spell-checked”.) If that changes, Tyranids could be reduced to measurably worse because then they’re forced to rely on their frankly lousy stats, fragile models, and generally pathetic damage output.

    This is one of the times that I’m glad that GW doesn’t give a flying Nurgling dump about xenos. Frankly, I don’t even *want* a new book. Just going off historical precedent, getting a codex hasn’t been a good thing for Tyranids since maybe 3rd edition. Better the Devilgaunt I know. Besides, I’m used to Tyranids relying on Hive-Tyrant-shaped crutches by now.