40k Op-Ed: Guilliman and the Chaos Conspiracy

40K Chaos players have a beef with Guilliman – and they need to get over it.

I would like to add a short preamble to this 40k article. I was once a hard core tournament player and then came the end of 7th edition so I decided to switch over fully to playing 30k. 30k is a very balanced game and not playing tournaments any more I learned that gaming can be fun for just the experience and being totally immersed in the game. Sure I still like to win like everyone but the things I enjoy most changed. I’d also like to add that I have played Chaos Space Marines (CSM) since 3rd Edition… we once were so mighty then came the eventual fall but now we are finally strong again.

What prompted me to write this diatribe was a game this past weekend versus CSM and it was my first game playing Space Marines in 8th edition. My opponent brought both daemon Primarchs and a Lord of Skulls with cultists and some sorcerers for Warp Time… his strategy was to cast Warp Time on the heavy hitters and go for broke. I brought Guilliman with a fluffy army not optimized. He constantly complained about my Primarch throughout the entire game which was very disappointing for me. I felt like he had a big chip on his shoulder to be honest. He is a good guy though and I told him how I felt. (It was Goatboy)

Watch Me and Goatboy Play

This week we have seen the FAQ for Astra Militarum and the nerf to conscripts. It’s a big deal. I’m not going to say it was needed or not needed but as a formerly very competitive player I am going to say to CSM players need to put on their big boy pants and STFU about Guilliman… LTP. I have never been into petitions to Games Workshop to nerf other people’s armies, that’s not how how I roll. Having discussed this topic on some large FB groups built around competitive 40k my take on it is most of the hate towards Guilliman comes directly from CSM players.

Let’s take a look at both of the daemon Primarchs. Both have wings and psychic powers plus lots more win. Magnus is rocking a 3++ invulnerable save rerolling 1s since he is classed as a Daemon of Tzneetch. Roboute has 9 wounds, half as many as either deamon Primarch… Guilliman can get back up after being destroyed on the roll of a 4+ with d6 wounds which with a command point and a successful roll is the same number of wounds – it’s not a sure thing by any means.

I don’t see any Imperial players targeting either daemon Primarch with demands for the ban hammer yet nor has most any Guilliman list won any major tournament except for Lawrence the Spyder over in the UK but for real he is very amazing. If Guilliman is FAQd to have say 10 wounds he will be unplayable. I also think that some competitive players need to realize the game does not solely revolve around them and their desire to win. Nerfing Guilliman would adversely affect non competitive players who enjoy using him as he is now… their enjoyment is just as valid as anyone else’s. If something is really broken for sure it needs to be fixed but imho this is not the case.

To me the inclusion of Primarchs into 40k is really cool… I love it and that’s all I have to say on this sensitive subject.

~What’s your take on Guilliman?

  • Crevab

    Good on you for making a change

  • Jack

    I play games for fun. Anyone who is complaining about a certain model or table flipping when things dont go their way, should just throw their models in the bin and go do something else with their lives. Its a game. You win some, you lose some. Best thing to do if you think youre going to lose? Have fun, drive a tank into a big dude and see if you can get it to explode. Charge a primarch with some gretchin. Make a love heart formation with your troops before they are about to be charged by a blob of death. Just dont complain and throw a tantrum. Because thats silly.

    • Mr.Fister

      My chimera blew up and killed the hellbrute that shot my tank…this was a memorable moment in that game…such games are more valuable for me than some generic I won easy game

      • LankTank

        I was having that discussion with my mate. Out of our 200+ games we barely remember wins or losses but when a single model did something incredible. A Sgt slaying a carnifex single handidly, a scout fighting off 11 cultists in combat, A morkanaut exploding and taking out about 30 models. We then always add something to the mdoel to commemorate it.

        • Mr.Fister

          Sometimes a narrative develops around a model. This Chimera and the Cybot have a history. It started last year in a Kill Team Battle. My friend plays Red Corsairs and a renegate Space Wolf was the leader of his Kill Team. The Chimera was part of my team. This yer we played Shadow War. The traitor Space Wolf was the leader again and died all the time. As punishment he was put in a former Dark Angels power armour. Soon after that he died completly. My friend than introduced a Hell Brute in a regular game and said this is that guy suffering for his defeats. Than the Chimera put him out of his misery while it explode.

    • ZeeLobby

      “You win some, you lose some.”

      Why can’t people, even fun players, understand that this is still the issue. If you win and lose some games, sure it doesn’t really matter. It’s when you lose all your games because of an OP combination your friend has figured out that it gets old. If he loves playing Guilliman because it’s his favorite model, now you’re asking him not to play it to make games more interesting. Balance helps everyone, and while it’s OK to throw arms in the air and say let’s be silly, even if I never win a game, sometimes that’s not enjoyable for even the most casual player.

      • Karru

        I have this funny story to tell each time this type of conversation comes up.

        So, I recently reintroduced 40k to a friend of mine who hasn’t played since 4th edition and he wanted to test 8th. So, I help him get into it, teach him how the game works and help him start making lists. I give him a good amount of advice on how to make the list, what is effective and whatnot and so on, during the games I would give him advice on how to deal with certain things from my army or how to avoid some of my more evil combos.

        When I played against him, we were doing this through Tabletop Simulator by the way, I always brought different armies with themes that I found fun. 7 games, he would always use super optimised lists and crushing my army in 1-2 turns.

        I would give up after those 1-2 turns because there is nothing I can do anymore except spent 20 minutes doing my turn, then wait an hour for him to do his turn and kill more of my stuff and then repeat. As soon as I do, he would always say the same “Oh, don’t give up just yet, you can still pull of a victory if you tried, don’t be like that”.

        After the 7th game, I concluded that I would actually show him that I am not actually trying to win and I am just doing themes and having a laugh, but still don’t have the interest in spending 3 hours to just look my army getting obliterated while I can’t do anything back.

        I made more powerful list normally that crushed his army in 3 turns. He wasn’t able to do basically anything to me as I was countering everything he was trying to pull because I know exactly how he operates and I wasn’t helping him tactically any more. Immediately after the game, he calls me “being unfair to him” and that I “purposefully was power gaming against his ‘normal’ list”. God it was fun to hear him say that because I just made him taste his own medicine. Literally all I did was take a normal list with no theme, stopped giving him constant advice and telling him exactly what my plans were or how to counter them.

        Suddenly he realised that I wasn’t actually playing for real during our past games and that I actually play for fun and not to win. If I find the game not fun any more, I don’t bother continuing.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I just wish the disparity between both levels was smaller. I think this something other systems do well. A power gaming list should beat weaker lists, but not 100% of the time. Right now this is sadly the case in many instances.

          I’ve seen this same story played out in local stores with new players all the time, especially in competitive areas. They pick a faction, their friend shows them the ropes with fun lists, and then they come to their first event and are like, holy crap. Now they’ve dropped hundreds of dollars on a mediocre army, and need to spend hundreds more to get things rolling. The alternative is they’re shown the face-smashing first, and they insta-quit. I just want some middle ground, haha.

        • I love this story !!!

    • Karru

      I’ve played my Guilliman with the Iron Resolve trait and Honour Guard surrounding him. Been extremely fun and balanced to use. Now you actually have to plan your movement with him, you can’t just move across the table, protected by your entire army and then annihilate the enemy lines.

  • defensive

    What a load of bollocks.
    BoLS writer is a crybaby, so the other goes and complains that chaos players are all babies, and that he is above complaining.

    The Daemon primachs fulfil completely different roles than guilliman, and are both considerably more expensive.
    Anyone with more than half a brain cell can see he’s undercosted for what he does, and that there is a reason he’s brought in 90% of comp SM lists.

    t. Blood Angels and Dark Eldar player

    • Drpx

      I’d agree with you if chaos players didn’t cry after every release that it wasn’t good enough, they can’t compete with loyalists, but they only play CSM for the challenge/fluff anyway.

    • oh, magoo…

      Hear hear. He’s preposterous. I play SM and pay for my chapter master and lieutenant like an adult. RG is ridiculous.

    • Cry me a river lil baby 😆

  • Philipp

    Increase the Point Cost of Guilliman to 500+

    • BrianDavion

      only if you increase the points cost of the deamon primarchs as well.

      • KingAceNumber1

        Why? Because they’re primarchs?

        They don’t do any of the the same things. They’re the size of a f*cking house, and don’t have character protection. Guilliman doesn’t have to kill a single model to pay his points.

      • Spacefrisian

        No problem, as there are no deamon primarchs in the game.

  • DrLove42

    Guilliman is fine as far as rules go. Hes just insanely undercosted. His points would be fine if it was just for his combat prowess. But he brings so much more to the table on top.

    And comparing him to the deamons is unfair theyre much more expensive and dont have the ability to hide as a character like Bobby G does.

    • BrianDavion

      no but they do bring their own things to the table. to be blunt if someone brought TWO Deamon primarchs to a game, and had the gall to complain I took Gulliman I’d proably force feed all three primarchs to the other player rectally.

      • LankTank

        Right? As a Chaos player I love taking on Guiliman.
        Have you ever seen 31 poxwalkers with Blades of Putrefecation and Vets of the Long war rip into Guiliman? It’s so awesome, and their face, priceless.

    • oh, magoo…

      The ability to hide is probably his biggest problem tbh. And being undercosted by ~50-100 points imo.

    • Steven Hyche

      Off subject but Magnus does not get a 3++ for being a demon of tzeentch. He can buff it through other means but he doesnt have the +1 to invulns that demons get

      • Fenix Dargon

        He does get it through Weaver of Fates power though.

        • Steven Hyche

          Thus the “Other means” portion of the comment

          • Fenix Dargon

            I missed the ‘Other means’ in your comment.

          • Nice try son

      • Are you sure son ??

    • LankTank

      But I mean Mortarion has the ability to fly across the table, do twice the amount of damage in combat, psychic pwoers, have a larger buff area, be healed by Heralds of NURGLE and go to 18 attacks against mobs?

    • How can you even say that ?!!! 🤡

  • matty199

    As an imperial player they can nerf guiliman if they do the same to chaos
    Ie nerf magnus
    Nerf alpha legion khorne bezerkers
    More nerfs to brimstones
    And get rid of the malefic lord spam
    Nerf cultist spam

    • Simon Chatterley

      I play Alpha Legion and I infiltrate Khorne Berserkers. It tends to work out less than 50% of the time and when it does any reasonably competent player just sacrifices a chaff unit or 2.

      So laughably hit or miss its in my “fun” because there is nothing funnier than seeing the nutcases get all worked up and then have to hide.

      If you have no chaff to guard your stuff and lose turn 1 then yes it’s a bit harsh but I’m sure what you have is capable of dishing out a lot of damage if I don’t get the first turn. So fair is fair.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      How are AL Khorne Zerkers even a thing? How broken are the army composition rules to make that possible?

      Bring back Traitor Legions…

      • Simon Chatterley

        Actually part of the basic fluff. Any Space Marine can become a Khorne Berserker but usually it’s a warband of World Eaters for “hire”

        From a narrative perspective it works great as AL are the masters of the ambush. They could have dug a hole and hidden the berserkers a week before the battle for instance. Then at the opportune time out they pop.

        If it worked out 100% of the time I’d agree it’s OP but I think on 10 games or so I’ve played with AL Berserkers it’s only came off like 3 times…and 1 of them was against Imperial Knights which was hugely funny as they just threw themselves at one to slow it down. They did for a turn so fair play on the noble sacrifice.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          Alpha Legion = Chaos Undivided. End of.

          They are also the legion of subtlety, surprise attacks and each man being a capable leader and highly trained tactician. So a blood thirsty uncontrollable maniac would fit right in there…

          If you wanted the AL to be using zerkers as part of some clever plan they should be allies not part of the AL and benefitting from their rules.

          • Chaos undivided =/= worships no gods. It means they worship no one god in particular. Some may worship the pantheon, some may have given themselves to Slaanesh, or may have drawn the attention of a particular god with the way they wage war. Angel Exterminatus is a good example of this; the Iron Warriors are also a “Chaos Undivided” legion and as they fall to Chaos throughout the book, the different characters manifest traits distinct to the different gods. There’s nothing wrong with AL having a unit of berzerkers in their midst.

            The fixation on “purity” within chaos lists baffles me. It’s CHAOS ffs, they are literally agents of discord and disorganisation. They’re chaotic neutral at best (AL) and chaotic evil at their worst (Fabius Bile)

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I’m glad I don’t have to play people who hold this view. Luckily there is more respect for the fluff and how ‘pure’ armies are more interesting to play and play against at my club.

          • Fergie0044

            But what is the current fluff for AL? Do they serve chaos or themselves? Or is it all different warbands with different goals?
            They’re fluff about NL and IW marines following one god so having a unit of zerkers in a undivided army is fine imo. I’d have more issue if someone’s AL army had more zerkers than anything else though. But a single unit is just fine.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            It hasn’t really changed since 2nd edition though their origin story has been fleshed out by Alan Bligh. I recommend you read the 2nd ed Chaos Codex and HH book 3 Extermination.

          • Fergie0044

            I’ve read ‘Legion’ from HH which seemed to point them in a very different direction from the other traitor legions. Has there been any follow up to that?

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Thats a very odd book that really divided opinion. It started a whole major plot arc (Cabal etc) that was only followed up in the next John Grammaticus book (Unremembered Legion?) and then vanished.

            Even AL fans can’t decide what to make of it.

            AL fluff has always been contradictory anyway. IIRC one codex said they didn’t go to the Eye after the heresy and thus had no mutations, then the next codex directly contradicted that!

          • Drpx

            They’re doing it wrong, screeeeeeee!

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. What’s crazy is the old rules used to support this philosophy.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Its sad isn’t it? And funny how all these fluffy armies look exactly the same. Any artist will tell you a restricted pallette makes for more interesting art.

          • Spacefrisian

            Like Lelith using combat drugs, someone at gw didnt check her lore i guess.

          • ZeeLobby

            With 8th I’ve just assumed that all lore is subject to change. One of the reasons I just don’t have the desire to get too involved in the fluff again.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            So do Word Bearers no longer count as Chaos Undivided? And if so, explain how exactly their worship of Khorne would violate those principles.

            Because honestly, you haven’t presented a real argument yet. Mostly just finger-wagging.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Alpha Legion are a different case to WB. More like Night Lords, not bothered by Gods and following their own agenda. Iron Warriors on the other hand actually have Berzerkers mentioned in their fluff.

          • LordKrungharr

            Word Bearers are Chaos United!

          • ManU

          • Red Devils never seemed scary at all until I read this…

          • Simon Chatterley

            They are also the Legion of manipulation and infiltration.

            From a story perspective I see nothing wrong with AL manipulating a World Eaters warband or an Emperors Children warband etc. Then using their subtly and planning to set that warband in a place that will be of maximum use to them.

            So I think I’m playing the game just perfectly thank you very much.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            At the end of the day you can justify anything in fluff. AL could manipulate anyone. But in game sharing special rules like this homogenizes armies as everyone plays the best combos and makes the game dull. Plus it does make a mockery of the fluff when every Imperial army has Girlyman in it and every chaos army is AL.

          • I can’t argue with that. You can always tell (somehow) when an army is built around fluff and a theme, and when the biggest bad has been shoe-horned into an army cuz teh interwebz told me.

          • Appreciate, as always, the dedication to Chaos, but I think this is a very…limited view of the Legions’ background, and one that clings to a particular era of the game. Namely, the much-beloved (tho, I think, somewhat flawed) Index Astartes and Chaos 3.5 list.

            Ever since the non-dedicated Legions got fleshed out in 2nd Edition, Chaos has been presented as a mixed force, a faction made up of loosely-aligned warbands that often have, at best, a loose connection to the Primarchs and Legions they descend from. It’s been ten thousand years since the Horus Heresy. That’s an *incredibly* long time, much longer than all of recorded human history to this day. That much time in the Eye, spent warring against Marines and Daemons and God knows what else, that’s going to change an Astartes. Maybe they go mad and take up Khorne worship. Maybe their commanders, rather than having them executed, decide to make the best of the resources they have, and still field their crazy, frothing brethren at the enemy. Chaos Space Marines are an army about obsession, degeneration and a savage desperation, so this is as “fluffy” as anything.

            That said, obviously a lot of people just do this because it’s a good in-game move, and I’m fine with rolling eyes at that. Still, I’m a 20-year Word Bearer veteran, and feel fine fielding any of the Cult troops.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I agree about 3.5, but this way of thinking about Chaos, ie as operating still with many features of their HH period structure and features intact seems to me more like a school of thought or strand within the fluff that some writers favour whist others disdain.

            FW in its books often sticks to the 3.5 ideas. In the Vraks books for instance the AL, Deathguard and Khorne warband are very distinct and whilst they may share interests and warily cooperate sometimes their troop types and command structures are distinct.

          • Definitely agree, and it’s something I think works from either angle. From a fiction and modeling standpoint, it’s whatever the creator of the work wants to explore. I just don’t like the idea that any of the non-Cult Legions should be shackled to their 30K organization and ideas.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            The up side of such fluff inconsistencies is we can choose which version we personally prefer ☺

          • *brofist*

        • Any zerker would chainaxe Alphariyz to the face. 😈

      • Drpx

        “You shouldn’t be able to have that unit in your army getting all those benefits,” said the Imperium player.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          I am a chaos player.

      • delobius

        From the 2nd ed Chaos Codex: “Khorne Berzerkers are Chaos Space Marines who have dedicated themselves to the Chaos God Khorne. Most famous of all Khorne Berzerkers are the Space Marines of the Worldeaters, but they are joined by followers of the Blood God drawn from all the Traitor Legions.”

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          Well it really feels wrong to me. Iron Warriors for sure, but goes against my sense of the feel of AL. Just goes to show GW have put model sales ahead of fluff for a long time 🙂

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Berzerkers are just blood thirsty mercenaries working for whomsoever promises them the most blood and skulls.

  • Yriel_The_Angelic

    Can someone enlighten me real quick? Dude states that Magnus is 3++ due to being a daemon of tzeentch. Where is this rule? Is he referencing that ephermeral form on the Chaos Daemons section of index would apply to Magnus? If so, would that logic also follow with possessed of tzeentch and warp talons of tzeentch? Or is he assuming that Magnus would have to cast Weaver of fates to get to a 3++? In which case he’d be ignoring the fact that Magnus would have to take an extra step to be 3++.

    • euansmith

      I read it that Magnus gets a 3++ and that, being a Deamon of Tzeentch, allows him to re-roll 1s on his saving throws.

      • Yriel_The_Angelic

        Yea, but Magnus natively has a 4++. So I’m just trying to figure out why the dude is assuming a 3++ base.

        • euansmith

          Ah, right. Maybe Goatboy was fibbing to him 😀

          “No, dude, Magus is totally rocking the clutch 3++ save… because… um… Chaos?” 😉

          • Simon Chatterley

            Magnus gets access to the Tzeentch CSM power that gives +1 to invul (or it can be cast on him..) Either/or that’s how he gets the 3++ I believe.

            It’s no gimme of course and he doesn’t start with it so if the player loses turn 1 Magnus tends to get nuked offf the board

          • J Mad

            You know what SM can get rid of? Invuls (if he doesnt Deny) Nullzone re-moves invuls.

          • euansmith

            I really wish GW would change the basic game to another style of activation, rather than I-Go-U-Go.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I’ve been playing Terminator Genisys lately.

            Bl00dy brilliant ruleset from Allesio Cavatore. The quickstart rules are free to download on the Riverhorse website.

            They are worth checking out to see how he handles activations. Best AA system I’ve seen, even better than Sharp Practice.

          • euansmith

            Cool. I’ll check that out. I was looking at the game as it was on special offer, but I might have missed that.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            They’ll repeat the offer again. Its fairly regular. Also v cheap on ebay, but get the right box, one versiion is a boardgame with no rulebook.

          • euansmith

            I take that the licence didn’t turn in to the runaway success they might have hoped. Regardless of the quality of the rules, I was put off backing the project by the size of the Endoskeletons which looked a bit weedy to me.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            They look good in person. Rules are excellent. Film, not so much! However there are rules and models for characters from the other films.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            £35 currently gets you the full boxed game, an extra box of resistance and an extra box of Terminators…


          • ZeeLobby

            Don’t we all. Haha. I think it’d make a much more interactive, less alpha strikey game.

      • This

    • Sam Burke

      The article is wrong, he has a 3+/4++ and rerolls 1.

      • Yriel_The_Angelic

        That was my assumption, just wanted to see whether I was missing something or not.

      • Yriel_The_Angelic

        Also, Magnus re-rolls invulnerable saving throws of 1’s. He doesn’t just re-roll 1’s. So this article is all kinds of messed up.

      • ILikeToColourRed

        he has access to a power that improves invul saves by 1, with bonuses to casting powers

        • Yriel_The_Angelic

          Yea Weaver of Fates. I was just confused cause the article was written in such a way that it was implied, through being a Daemon of Tzeentch, he had a 3++ natively.

  • Charon

    Funny. He posted the same crap in a facebook competitive group prior to this “article” and got called out, now he begs for approval on BOLS.
    Points still stand. Girlyman is undercosted, buffs a whole faction (including more than 50% of all armies) instead of a small sub faction and can not be targeted.

    • Most people agreed Rowboat is just fine as is.

      • Charon

        people agreed he is undercosted.
        “fine as is” is your interpretation to confirm your biased opinion.
        Same as here. Majority of people vote for undercosted but not gamebreaking.

        • Not people, some people and not the majority either.

          • Charon

            If that lets you sleep better, whatever floats your boat. Keep telling it to yourself. And dont forget to ad hominem every opinion that tells you otherwise…
            oops… already did that

          • 78.56 % agreed with me. You are really full of crap bruh .

  • Antoine Henry

    When Conscripts takes a first nerf on troop size, then a nerf on Orders, then a Nerf on Leadership (through a Commissar), we CLEARLY see that GW do not test and just nerf for whiners (same as brimstone) but they do not nerf the pointed out characters that sells : Celestine and Guilliman. I am not even talking about the DE Birds…We all agree that guilliman should cost 500 pts and Celestine around 300 points as she can revive on a 2+ with Full HP + recover wounds + Fly + Act of Faith + Invuln Bubbles ++++.

    The problem is that they are concerned only about who are “louder” not through testing & common sense. It has been said since day 1 that Roboute is cheated but they do not want to nerf the big hero on points. Not the fault to whiners, to players but to GW. They could have done it since week1.

  • Simon Chatterley

    The winner of the GW Heat 1 used Guilleman. He says that for what he does he should be 600pts or 450pts without the reroll to wound.

    So yeah, I think there is a problem

  • robert-reynolds

    I find the entire re-roll aura ability rules to be utterly ridiculous. If youre trying to design a balanced game assigning points values to units why would you then create an ability that gives all units within a certain distance rsrolls fo hit and wound!? It is impossible to balance correctly!? Its not too bad if its a tactical squad with a lascannon and flamer but 60 assault cannon shots? How can you appropriately cost Guilliman? I played against a Guilliman list at heat 1 of the GT and my opponent killed 50 veterans in his first turn! The re-roll aura genie is out of the box so I cant see it going anywhere but it takes all the unpredictability out of the game and increases efficiency so dramatically it becomes a no brainer! Csm players dont like it because when you do the maths without rerolls to hit and wound it would take 60+ lascannon shots to kill a greater daemon of tzeentch with rerolls its 20! They took out twin linked and put in rerolls go figure….!? But of course lets nerf conscripts because theyre so amazing…. Lol Conscripts were only ever bubble wrap and objective grabbers even with frfsrf they did very little real damage but 28 wound T8 +++3 greater daemons are fine and so are reroll hit and wound bubbles?

    • Inian

      Aura abilities are the biggest design mistake of this edition in my opinion, they should all be replaced with . That way we don’t have entire armies congalined to a specific character somewhere and the balance issue you mentioned would mostly go away.

      • David

        One unit seems a bit weak but units within instead of models within should be the standard.

        • BrianDavion

          one option instead might be to take the IG order system and impliment it across the board tied to HQs. Stragitiums are similer of course. now imagine of HQs could cast stratigiums ala psykers casting spells. as I DO like HQs being something beyond “this is my uber beat stick”

      • Drpx

        But it’s what the Magic and X-Wing kiddies expect and maybe it’ll lure some of those bitter Warmahordes players back too.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      Its a typical GW game design mess.

      So super-friends lists were bad. They could have just nerfed Battle Brothers.

      But no, GW always over-reacts. Ban all characters from joining units.

      But how will characters affect the game (asks the intern)? Auras! replies the game designer. Much self congratulatory back slapping ensues.

      But NO! Anyone can see this just opens up whole new issues. Characters have to be untargetable. Conga lines and ridiculously efficient castled up shooting armies emerge. Auras overlap and interact in odd ways.

      Super-Friends is back (Souper-Friends?) only now they stand next to each other instead of in a single unit, they can’t easily be targetted and their powers affect the WHOLE ARMY instead of just one unit.

      Bavo GW. Genius.

      • ZeeLobby

        But hey, they talked to TOs and made the bestest rules ever!

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          Turns out folk whose idea of fun is tabling each other with no holds barred totally unrestricted lists to a tight time limit and with minimum ambiguity might not be the best people to design a beer and pretzels narrative game played between friends in garages and clubs.

          Who’d have thought it?

          What we see with 8th is the death of British style quirky clunky but characterful and cinematic 40k and its replacement by a streamlined tournament game suitable for overly competitive Americans, even though basic parts of the rules engine (IGoYouGo, D6 etc) weren’t suitable. Its like they tried to make a Morris Minor into a car for NASCAR by grafting on a jet engine and then being surprised when the wheels fell off.

    • Cry me a river bruh …

  • snakechisler

    Lawrence winning the UK gt was down to an optimised list that also included Tiggy. In his Magnus match up he got null zone off, I’m not saying that big rob isn’t well op but he’s not as op as Magnus with a 2++ rerolling 1’s due to psychic buffs. Match play is still unrecognisable to club play just live with it and stop carping

    • RAKSHA

      Magnus have 4,+invant and after he use psychic power he has 3+..learn y+..I don’t know where you get this 2+ from

    • ILikeToColourRed

      magnus cant get to 2++ , the tzeetch power states that it improves invul saves by 1 to a maximum of 3+

      • I_am_Alpharius

        It doesn’t stipulate a maximum Invulnerable save. It is straight +1 to an invulnerable save or a 5+ for units that don’t have an invulnerable save to begin with.

    • I saw his TTT interview he said he got very lucky several games bruh

  • Randy Randalman

    None of the Primarchs are over-powered. As each codex has emerged, each army has found ways to deal with them with relative ease. Primarchs are right where they should be: powerful, but not too much so. Easy to pick up and play for casual players, but rewarding for a master general.

    • BrianDavion

      that said I DO think this article focused too much on CSMs. the complaints, justly or not, about Gulliman don’t JUST come from CSMs, who yes proably do envy Gulliman a bit, as the deamon primarchs improved stats are just eneugh to make them less affordable then loyalists, I expect we’re apt to see a continuing trend this way with loyalist primarchs as well.

    • ZeeLobby

      Lol. Only in Randy’s world are all things equal because he thinks so.

  • Marco Marantz

    trash article. im curious if he ends up winning against both primarchs. Its widely commented that Guilliman is undercosted for a reason.

    • Austin Glover

      From what I saw, (i just skimmed it) he lost, but that was after killing mortarion and the lord of skull and he could’ve killed magnus and might have won if he hadn’t failed some saves

      • BrianDavion

        in a points based system games SHOULD be pretty close on average. if it was a close game, eaither the power levels more or less balanced, or goatboy just sucks.

        • ZeeLobby

          Most likely the latter (no offense to him). I mean most lists he puts up as competitive are pretty bad, and when’s the last time you’ve heard him win an event?

      • He has conceded

  • fenrisful2

    Just continue to increase the power of snipers, like in the codex craftworlds and G-man should be fine as he is.

    • Marcet

      That’s all nice and dandy but what of those armies without snipers? GSC, Chaos and Daemons don’t have snipers on their basic list (gsc can get them via brood brothers shenanigans), not sure about Orcs and Tyranids but let’s go with them not having snipers either. Making snipers stronger doesn’t help them one bit and in fact makes their characters weaker.

      • ZeeLobby

        Or what happens when those snipers run into a list without OP characters. Now snipers are OP. Last thing we need is an arms race.

        • Marcet

          Yeah, good point. Though having said this let’s see what the Chapter Approved book brings, allegedly it’ll contain updated points values for units.

          • ZeeLobby

            I hope so. I mean it’s what I’ve been waiting for GW to do forever for 40K. They constantly change rules, wiggle things around, etc, but they’ve always been hesitant to simply change costs. Some units have really cool strong rules, I’d rather have them just cost more, than nerf them into something boring.

  • BrianDavion

    So who won? I assume since Gulliman was so OP you curb stomped goatboy hard?

  • Solvagon

    An alternate take:

    I am a Chaos Player. And I hate Gulliman. I also hate Mortarion; I hate Belisarius Cawl, Typhus, Celestine, Magnus and any other stupid named character that is so pushed that he is the obvious best choice for the faction he is from. I want MY characters, the ones I daydream about while browsing rules or during my commute, the ones I invested a lot of thought and creativity in, the ones I selected bits for and that I carefully converted to fit my imagination to be the stars of my games. I don’t want Space Marine players being forced to play Ultramarines because Gulliman is broken (Come on, why isn’t his ability “Ultramarines Infantry Units”?). I don’t want to have to play Typhus because he makes Poxwalkers playable. I don’t want to play Mortarion, not because I don’t have money or because I dislike the model, but because a Daemon Primarch has no business charging some lousy minimum sized squads or single Rhinos.
    I want rules to have my own Lord of Nurgle with a Flail of Corruption and Disgustingly Resilient. I want my own Demon Prince with a Plague Weapon and a choice between different cool nurgly ranged weapons. I want to send them against other players cool 500-year old Inquisitors with crazy Xenos guns on a walking throne. And I want Space Marine players to have their own Chapter Master / Ultra Dreadnought / whatever without having this bad feeling about gimping their own army for fluff or imagination.

    I understand the business decision behind the ultra pushed named characters and the move away from ultra-customizable characters, but if one thing sucks about the long term trends in 40K, this is it. And don’t tell me that these are too many options for the game – the poster boy codex has 77 different dataslates without special characters. An extra page with wargear does not matter at all.

    • Fergie0044

      “my own Lord of Nurgle with a Flail of Corruption and Disgustingly Resilient”

      Agree! Why so little options for the DG lord now? We even had artwork in the previous chaos codex of a nurgle lord with a flail!!!

      As for your main point – its not too hard to use the named character rules for one of ‘your guys’ if it fits.

      • Solvagon

        Of course, that is what I’m doing, but still… while playing, the shorthand for that character will be “Typhus” while playing, just because of clarity. And honestly, Typhus Poxwalker Aura could have easily been a Warlord Trait. Who needs 3 different “make your WL more resilient” options? Also, I would enjoy competition between Arch-Contaminator and something else. Stripping the rules of the game down was really needed, but a little bit more complexity in list-building within certain units would make the game at least for me more fun without hurting gameflow.

    • Drpx

      Unfortunately, most players want to be given a premade character and army and be told, “this is good. Use it this way.” Warhammer has been on a steady march away from pen and paper RPG and closer to card and video games since 5th.

      • Solvagon

        The irony is that in the age of the internet, the rules for list-building can have extreme layers of complexity and the players will still get cookie-cutter builds without GW essentially prebuilding your LoW and HQ slots. Just look at MtG, there are quasi infinite ways to build decks, but it’s always just a handful of different deck cores in any given format. Sure, they get slightly tweaked by individual players (mostly because of a desire to be different), but it is readily available to everyone what the three best ways to play Magic are right now.

      • Lebowski1111111111

        you have a source to backup that statement? thats not the case in my club that has 30+ players.

        • Drpx

          Were you asleep in 7th?

    • benn grimm


      • euansmith

        Word up everybody says
        When you hear the call you’ve got to get it underway
        Word up it’s the code word
        No matter where you say it you know that you’ll be heardNow all you sucker DJ’s who think you’re fly
        There’s got to be a reason and we know the reason why

    • Deacon Ix

      I regret that I can only give you one upboat – back when I started playing in 2nd our group made our own ‘named characters’ following the normal rules and we played them until they died in a game.

      • Solvagon

        That sounds really awesome. I loved playing Mortheim and Inquisimunda; it is super sad that Shadespire and the new Necromunda do not look like they will be games where it is possible to relive that.

    • ZeeLobby

      It’s one of the things I miss most about 40K. It’s honestly got me looking for other game systems where leader customization is still a thing. I love the concept of basic infantry/vehicles
      with minimal customizations, but non-named characters I can customize to the max. (Anyone have any good suggestions?)

      • Apocryphus

        Actually, I’m working on using Dark Heresy rules with a friend to allow us to do much smaller, more involved, character oriented skirmishes. That way we can actually customize the characters and have them work as we invision.

        • ZeeLobby

          Sign me up! That sounds cool to me.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        Mutant Chronicles: Warzone?

        • ZeeLobby

          Hmm. I might have to take a look. The thing I like about 40K is the army sizes. I like company sized conflicts. The thing I used to love was the customization of characters. So if MC:W combines both, I’ll have to take a look.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            It tends to run Platoon to Company strength, depending on faction. Bauhaus, Dark Legion, and Capitol tend to field more stuff than Mishima, and Brotherhood, with Imperial and Cybertronic in the middle, going from very basic factions to very elite. While a lot of the named characters, especially Capitol’s, are good, generics can range from Bargain Basement to stupid expensive monster characters (Character Cybertronic Skorpions are a trap).

          • ZeeLobby

            Dude, I’m gonna look. All this sounds awesome to me!

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      We’ll be back to the days of “named characters only with opponents permission” soon.

    • Hate much bruh ?!!

  • Drpx

    First of all, it was Commissars, not Conscripts that got changed. Second, why does it feel like GW is copying Warmahordes? Formations, big based models and now uber characters that the entire army hugs.

    • Solvagon

      Because GW finally understood that the mess they called rules in the past ten years sucked hard and start stealing from everyone else again.

      Which is good, because honestly, WH40k was an objectively bad game in the past years, and now it’s not.

      • Matthew Pomeroy

        I have to say in my personal opinion and experience that 40k is worse now than its ever been. I thoroughly dislike 8th edition, both the rules and the direction of the setting.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          I cannot fathom that opinion give how god awful 7th became.

    • Because deckbuilding combo games are what the current generation of wargamers flocks to, and they wanted in on that.

  • Allerka

    “I switched over to 30K, which is a very balanced game…”

    And I’m done reading this.

    • Whoopty doo 😀

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      30k is pretty balanced with Marine on Marine but it loses its cred once you start adding in things that are not marines.

    • Yer an idiot

  • Laszlo

    We have a house Rule for this.
    Or as they was called when i started to play, special character.
    Back then you were only allowed to use them with an agreeing opponent.

    • 40KstillRulesTheTT

      Your lucky I don’t seem to be able to convince people to drop em (aside for some narrative games) in the 2 clubs I play at.

    • Dulahan

      Yeah, back in the 2e days, that was legit the rule for tournaments. No “Special Characters” at all.

  • Redhatter

    I don’t really like Guilliman he is to powerful when compared to the other Primarchs, I would either give him a 4+ invulnerable save or remove his ability to come back after dying.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    For hobbyist that play a lot of games and make a profession of reporting on said games from certain position of “expertise”…you lots sure do get an awful lot of rules wrong….unfortunately this makes it very hard to take articles seriously or with any weight.

  • I was hoping this would be a discussion of the clear signs that Guiliman is being manipulated by the alpha legion. Disappointing.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      You’re crazy. You’re talking crazy, crazy, CRAZY TALK.

  • Jose Delgado

    Sure u dont want you overowered guilliman nerfed. But it must be. He should have a cost of 500 r so for all that he bring and also magnus and mortarion need a 700 cost because rigth now the meta is only primarks due to be soooooo undercosted.
    This post is tye typical try harder that hink that he is good because he win with guilliman and dont wanna haveit balanced because he kniws that he win due to the insta win that is guilliman now

  • So… the guy that used to play Chaos who is writing badly written Chaos articles on a predominately competitive site is also complaining that someone; who also writes for the same competitive site; was ruining his first game of 8th by bringing a competitive list against his fluffy list and competitive players need to realize it’s not all about them and don’t nerf my unit.


    Do you even roll bruh?


  • SacTownBrian

    The comments are far more entertaining than the article.

  • Jaime Vila

    No repeat to wound in aura and this its nice.

  • Yves Ewen

    Guilliman is undercosted. Both demon Primarchs are very powerful, but they are properly costed. That is the difference we are looking at. Guilliman exponentially buffs any Ultramarine unit he is close to. This would be fine if he were more expensive as he should. There would be less stuff he can buff. That’s why.
    That being said, you are two friends playing a „casual“ game. One brings two demon primarchs in a chaos soup tournament list and complains about the other one bringing an arguably OP Lord of War. Then the one that didn’t complain during the game goes to BoLS to complain about the first guy, and while he is at it accuses all Chaos Players to be whining about overly effective Imperial stuff…
    This is kindergarten, really…

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    I really don’t care. Guilliman, along with most named Characters, is a point sink.

  • G Ullrich

    As a long time Salamanders player, I hate Bobby-G because he’s not Vulkan…. 😉

  • Koen Diepen Van

    I wonder why ppl think a model just standing back and buffing all the dudes around him is more boring then a monster that needs to get out in the open to be effective. It’s almost like one of those two things offers less counter play

  • Richard Mitchell

    I agree man, Gullie is not a terrible thing. Yes he is strong but he is the only thing keeping Space Marines competitive right now. It is not like the soup armies where you have so many variables compounding onto each other to just make a really solid faction.

    If you are playing against space marines, you know Gullie HAS to be chosen so playing around it is not hard. In fact it actually gives the player an advantage.

    I remember this was happening with eHaley in Warmachine within Cygnar. If I was playing against Cygnar I knew I was going against eHaley so I would shut her down with Zerkhova (if you can believe that #%%#). I would take one Zerkhova list just for that one purpose and a guy (who is a great guy, very talented wargamer in general, and level headed) raged quite that game (not the game) and stopped taking eHaley.

    But with MKII eHale and Gullie it is different because eHaley was the strongest caster but there were still other strong options. With SMs and the flyer FAQ, its either Gullie or bust.

    FAQ’ing him is not the answer, giving all players within every faction strong options to take that also force you to play differently is the answer. This creates force variety within a faction not going full Negan on a faction or model.

  • Valeli

    I think they all should be banned, grumble grumble. I liked it a lot more when these guys were mythical figures of legend rather than army list options.

  • Sonic tooth

    I imagine Russ will be a million times worse

    • He will be the daemon Primarch For WE.

      • Sonic tooth

        id love to see russ come back as a mindless giant daemon wolf that magnus holds on a leash

  • KingAceNumber1

    The real issue I have with Guilliman is that he doesn’t have to kill a single model or interact with the game in any way to earn his points. You can literally skip his activation EVERY TURN and he’s STILL worth the include just for the damn auras and refunding CP. He’s obscenely undercosted for what he does.

  • Ninety

    Why… why is this an article? Who thought an overlong salty forum comment deserved its own spot in the article reel?

    “If Guilliman gets FAQed to 10 wounds he will be unplayable”.

    Is this a joke?

  • Spacefrisian

    Nullzone is something Magnus might not like.

  • tylran

    For me personally, Guilliman seems fine for the type of games I play.

    I play full Primaris Ultramarines, lead by the Primarch himself. I love the model, I love the rules. My Primaris are few in numbers, but he makes them way more effective than they would otherwise be. I have had success with him, and Guilliman has a spot in my army, being the only model who actually excels in melee. However, I have lost with him as well. The big man can do a lot, but he is slow(ish), can’t really hide in cover and his survival is reliant on the Primaris Marines around him. I’ve yet to test him out against his fallen brothers, but I bet Mortarion would just eat him up in a melee combat.

    Now, would I still take Guilliman if he was 400 points? Sure. 450? Depends. 500? No way. I can barely field 40 models as is, so a price hike that steep would cause my army to tip over the critical mass of being too small to operate properly. The Primaris especially are relying on their officers to perform.

    That being said, I love the Primaris Captain, Librarian and especially Chaplain models, so I do field them from time to time, especially in some friendly games.

  • Dandoz Censura

    The person that did write this don´t even know the stats of daemon primarchs. Magnus aint rocking a 3+ invo save there is a spell that makes him get 3+ that you can throw on 1 unit each turn with tzeentch keyword.

    Also saying chaos players whine upon that Girleman they don´t even have a daemon primarchs. The only one that have is Death guard and Thousand sons. The closest chaos have is Abbadon and its a better thing to compare Abbadon with Girlieman then a daemon primarch.

    240 points of abbadon vs 360 points for a Girlieman

    Girlieman is better but cost 120 points more also. Abbadons have more attacks and only half damage from multiwound attacks with only 2 less wounds then Girlieman.

    The daemon primarchs is a totally different role and should not be compared