Feminist 40k Admins Respond

Last week’s discussion was spurred by a post from this Facebook group. This is their stance, in their own words.

The following was written by the Feminist 40K group admins.

 

Warhammer 40,000 has been around for a long time – more than twenty years, in fact. In that time, a veritable tonne of writing and rewriting has gone into the fictional universe, attracting players of all age groups in hobbyist miniature tabletop wargaming with an equally active online player base for its video game equivalents.

However, like all fandoms, it has its dark underbelly: a tribal and woefully toxic group of players who seek to isolate and protect “their” fandom at all costs, similar to a child screaming over “their” section of the playground when it is to be shared for everyone. This has plagued the fandom for generations, and while not exclusive to the game, has turned off many players who feel uncomfortable playing a hobby that requires interaction with such folk. A sample of such fine behavior includes, but is not limited to, demeaning and crass treatment of women in game stores, condoning racist and abhorrent behavior towards minorities or disabled persons, online harassment, and shaming other people for daring to enjoy the same hobby.

It is one thing to deny the existence and experiences of the many, many players who have faced such treatment by self-proclaimed “fans”. It is another altogether to condone and partake in such behavior, and this has forced many of us in the community to shun open spaces for fear of inviting anything from rape threats to unsolicited advances from these shining examples of humanity. Feminist 40K is a closed community, and that is not because we want to be, but because we have to be.

What are such over-the-top reactions up against? Why, the horror of questioning “the lore”, of course! Warhammer 40,000 is built upon decades of continuously rewritten and fluid fiction, with changes made to reflect the times and Games Workshops’ player base. At some point, women and minorities start to challenge the necessity of certain elements, such as the unnecessary sexualization of female-oriented miniatures to the lack of representation in model choice, and request Games Workshop to expand their selection as to include everyone in the mass carnage that is the 41st millennium.

The vitriolic reaction to this – asking others to treat each other fairly – is both astonishing and frustratingly common. Aside from the individual harassment of our players, there have been attempts at banning our page, concerted efforts to shut us down, and continuous defamation and bullying online for the audacity of challenging established canon – which has been changed time and again for varying reasons.

You’d almost think they hated the hobby with the amount of anger directed at our members. Change is integral to keeping media fresh and exciting; take the Dark Imperium series of releases by Games Workshop, for example. Deaths of named characters and planets, returning primarchs, new factions and miniatures: all these involve heavy lore changes and retcons, and it only bodes well for a hobby that is older than many of its modern enthusiasts. Change is neither inherently good nor bad, but there could not be a more perfect time to ask for a wider series of models when new ideas are being tossed about in the boardrooms of Games Workshop.

Take Adepta Sororitas armour. It emphasises the female figure to a sexualised level – not very glaring on its own, but alongside nearly-naked repentant fanatics, a long-running mistreatment in both in-game lore and GW codexes, and lack of relatively cheap and updated armies, it’s hard for women, or indeed anyone keen on having female models, to not take that as a statement that GW just doesn’t care much for its female player base. The matter of variety in ethnicity of models also turns away minorities who prefer to be represented by more than cultural stereotypes born of the comic books and action movies of the 80’s.

Why change our precious hobby, then? Ask the frothing, furious fans who spend the better half of their day finding ways to harass other fans who also want to make small plastic soldiers kill each other. Why not find another hobby and let mine stagnate in peace?

Because we love Warhammer 40,000. We love its over-the-top design, its shameless lifting of tropes from pop culture, its satire of fascistic theocracy, its sheer scale and flexibility that allows one to make an army that is very much our own. 40K is a setting with many, many individual stories, and what makes it so fun is that we are free to make our own, but it could be better if Games Workshop decides widen their market.

Everyone wins: minorities gain better representation, more options for writing and models are sold, the company makes more money and thus has more options for its player base. It’s much deeper than simply changing a coat of paint or adding a pair of accentuated breasts on a chestplate, but the reactionary views of loud, stubborn dinosaurs are truly ruining the experience, as much as they claim to be the victim.

Representation matters. It shows people that they are recognised, that they are not simply token pieces on a board more homogenous than a vanilla cheesecake – it allows women to safely play the hobby without spending the whole time staring at sexualised representations of the female form, and then deal with men who seem to think they have a right to allow what women can or can’t feel demeaned by. Most importantly, it allows gaming to be a fun hobby without fear of being harassed online, threatened, insulted or publicly shamed for one’s preference of miniature post-humans.

Fiction is written by people and subject to change. Reality, however, is affected by the choices of the writers, and should take precedence over the former. Media that stagnates will not survive the times, and if there is anything we can all agree on, it should be that we all have the right to enjoy rolling a series of ones and watch our army shoot itself in the face en masse.

 

Top Space Marine model by Arnstein Rekve Bryn, via the Feminist 40K group page.
  • DoctorBored

    Beautiful. I for one will be at the front of the line to shove the dinosaurs into the crater of ignorance that they dug for themselves. Bring on variety, bring on representation, bring on equality. Anyone that thinks that representation threatens ‘their’ hobby can sod off and play with the other red-pillers.

    I say this fully wanting this hobby to be friendly enough for my girlfriend to join in, for her to be able to take a look at a GW catalog and say, without any uncertainty or trepidation “This is the army I want!” I want her to say this with excitement, to see her eyes gleam as her brain explodes with ideas of how to build and paint her force, rather than simply shrugging and going along with the hobby because “well, my boyfriend is into it…”

    Unless she picks Necrons.

    • Muninwing

      after going into certain stores, my wife won’t go into most gaming stores today. and she’s a far better painter than i am.

      gaming in general — whether it be tabletop RPGs, video games, or wargaming — has long been considered a “boy’s club” by many, and often is one they will defend blindly. but having played in plenty of RPGs with a more or less equal gender ratio, it’s usually the worst-run and worst-written games that cater to the lowest common denominator and exclude people or groups.

      women have money too. and will spend it on hobbies too. so even without the defenses that will no doubt spring up where terrible people will try to justify their bigoted opinions, it just makes monetary sense for the company to try to do something about it if there’s actual interest.

      and if you’re going to comment on this, and want to use BS terms like “virtue signalling” or other bigoted dogwhistles, you can save it — we’ve already heard you, and poop doesn’t smell better the second time.

      • 415Native

        I wish I had more than one upvote for this comment.

      • Jake Waters

        what do you want?

      • Wulfen73

        Sure I’ll bite, sorry your wife had a bad experience in whatever crappy end of truck nuts nowhere. I have no idea why this turns into an indictment of… what millions of people?

        In the stores I frequent we have lots of women playing DnD or pathfinder twice a week. I guess I haven’t seen these evil beardies that all the pro feminists have mysteriously encountered, all with mysteriously similar stories.

        Perhaps there is just a certain area that breeds them?

        • Mad Jack Deacon

          It happens everywhere. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not happening in your store. I live in Chicago a fairly liberal and progressive city and I’ve seen it in my FLGS.

          If you feel indicted, you might want to ask what you’ve done to feel that way. And if they answer is “Nothing.” well, there’s your problem. You’re doing nothing to be inclusive.

          • Wulfen73

            Oh very nice trap, the answer is “When someone, regardless of what they are show’s interest and asks questions I politely answer their questions and offer suggestions on how to get started based on how they like to play, or how they think they would like to play”

            Because I enjoy having people around to play with, I don’t care what they identify as because it’s totally irrelevant.

            Maybe I don’t like the kind of talk you people bring because it is inherently divisive, jamming people in little boxes due to traits they have little control over, constant stereotyping and backstabbing behavior.

          • Mad Jack Deacon

            “I don’t care what they identify as because it’s totally irrelevant.”

            And that’s part of the problem. YOU don’t believe it’s relevant. But diversity, inclusion, and representation very much matter to people of color and women.

            Maybe I do put people in “boxes” according to gender identity, sexuality, ethnicity, and ability. Because those things are typically fundamental parts of their whole identity. I recognize that their experiences are not MY experiences and that they may be able provide insight into situations that I cannot.

            It seems to me that you see recognition of differences as divisive. I prefer to view a person holistically and value the things that make them different.

          • Jared Jeanquart

            THOSE ARE NOT THE THINGS THAT MAKE THEM DIFFERENT. Those are the superficial elements that they share in common with a broad category of other people. Being female doesn’t make someone different, it makes them the same as 50% of the human population. Being gay doesn’t make someone different, it makes them the same as 5-10% (I think) as the human population. They are the least relevant things about them, and focusing on them has proven to be incredibly toxic. Have you SEEN the internet recently? Its a godsdamned warzone because of this identity politics crap.

            There’s a time and a place (very few of them, but they exist) for people to make a big deal of their gender, race, sexual identity, or whatever, but a miniatures game about plastic army dudes in space but its also the middle ages is not one of them.

          • Iconoc1ast

            Totally agree!!

          • Rat Finker

            I second Jared’s motion.

          • Nitnal Dlareg

            Right on! too much ME-ME-ME! THEY DON’T FOCUS ON ME! I WANT TO BE REPRESENTED! they want “minorities” to be represented in the game as a sculpt even! do they know the logistics for that? GW has to look out for its interest. if indeed they are minorities, who will buy them? a MINOR GROUP of people, which much less reflect to MINOR profits. are they asking a business model to shift their priorities from profit to making them feel SPECIAL!

          • Porty1119

            No, not really. They are not special, you are not special, nor am I special. People should be perceived based on their actions, not whatever box they pencil themselves into due to it being trendy that month. This identity politics madness has set race and gender relations back fifty years.

          • lmn118

            “But diversity, inclusion, and representation very much matter to people of color and women.”

            It matters to you and it matters to people with chips on the shoulders who have a persecution complex. I doubt it matters to everyone in the world you have stuck into a box.

          • Roquet

            if you start to put people in boxes as “people of color and women” and that you think that they need representation, you are the racist and sexist here because YOU believe and think that they are underpriviledged and YOU feel the need to fight for them because YOU are the one that think that they are lower than you and they need your help. Also by posting this, you subscribe to the community you are trying to demonize and is impied that you are the same as us.

          • dirtysteve

            “people of color and women.” – maybe stop speaking for entire groups as if they’re a hivemind?

          • Majere613

            That’s the sort of argument that really *does* make me angry- the suggestion that because someone hasn’t seen harassment going on or taken part in it they’re somehow still implicit in it. Our local FLGS is run by two married men both of whose wives regularly pop in. It holds special sessions for disabled and autistic gamers. Do we see huge numbers of women coming in? No. Are the ones who do come in treated with respect? Yes, as far as I’ve seen and heard. The idea that I now need to turn into some sort of harassment-hunting Don Quixote in order to not be considered ‘part of the problem’ is beyond ludicrous.

            In fact, the only thing I resent about the current drives for diversity and equality are the constant insinuations that I, as a white male gamer, *must* be a bad guy who is desperately in need of reformation.

          • Drpx

            I keep asking girls to play with me and fifty tiny men and they keep calling the cops.

          • Iconoc1ast

            XD

          • Nitnal Dlareg

            HAHAHA! That’s GOLD!

          • Nathaniel Wright

            My anecdotal evidence is better than YOUR anecdotal evidence!

      • Erikjust

        Yes i have heard that alot about the unfriendly stores and cons and i can only say i must be going to wrong ones, because i have never experienced anything like that.
        Most of the places i go to has friendly banter between people and most people more than happy to welcome new players be they male or female.

      • vladmech

        A bit ago I started up a D&D game for a group of women I know, and ended up going with one of them to the local game store I get stuff from so she could pick up her own set of dice and some spell cards. The cashier made some small talk and when he found out she was going to be in a game that had six women and myself, first made a creepy comment about wanting to join, and followed it up with a comment about how they could all work on their knitting when it wasn’t their turn.

        Needless to say, she doesn’t ever want to set foot back in that store and I don’t blame her in the slightest.

        • Jared Jeanquart

          The creepy comment could have been a good joke. The knitting thing was over the line.

          • Muninwing

            the creepy thing *is* the norm. it’s a joke to that guy, but it’s the constant pressure of all those jokes that is the harassment.

            it’s not angry screaming or threats. it’s the constant low-level pressure that makes someone know that they are not accepted as an equal in that place, and therefore not welcome.

            all the guys saying “i don’t see any harassment” — this is why. thy think it’s a joke, and don’t understand that it all ads up.

          • Roquet

            Yes, people make jokes, i know some girls that talk bad about your tiny private parts and it`s ok, but if i tell them to go and make me a sammich, i`m automatically called a sexist.

          • The Tuque

            Life sucks then you die get a helmet, thicker skin, a sense of humour and stop generalizing everyone because of your small experience. If you think its the normal please provide evidence of such

          • NikosanPrime

            Totally agreed, I see it about 40% of the time where its the small sexual innuendos and the sexist cracks about things like knitting that are the problem. In defense of the men, they probably don’t know what to say to a girl in the first place.

            I have a friend, who I keep trying to slowly educate in the ways of interacting with women but he has some huge issues with socialization I guess because he keeps using lines he’s seen in movies and on TV to try to seem cool. The massive problem is that all of those comments make me want to hit him so I can only imagine what a women would feel like.

            As I have said in the past, I am not a women so I do not know what they go through. I do know the things I say and carefully say questionable or suggestive things to only the women I know well and have developed a relationship where we trust each other enough to say those things. And they say things back to me.

            Have I met women that make me feel uncomfortable with how they look at me and size me up. Yes. Do I like it. Not unless they do something to signal there is some respect or quid-pro-quo involved. Do I think they are creepy and avoid them in the future. Yes. So, do I think it is wrong to make anyone feel degraded, demeaned, disrespected or otherwise. Completely. I don’t think anyone else appreciates it, no matter how much they try to shrug it off.

            There’s my much more than two bits.

        • MKG35

          Really? you have some weird stores near you.

      • Drpx

        I keep hearing how rough women have it in the hobby, but I’ve to see anyone complain about one being in the store.

        Also, virtue signaling isn’t bs, but the reasons people give for it always are.

        • Muninwing

          no… “virtue signalling” is stating “you believe something is valuable that i do not, and i cannot understand why you feel that way, therefore you must just be saying these things because it makes you feel better”

          it’s solipsistic, arrogant, and dismissive… but it’s also used to signal disrespect for an opinion, and to “virtue signal” in the other direction to all the people who might agree — and to stroke the ego of all the people without empathy, waving a flag at an “undesirable” opinion so everyone knows how you feel in return.

          it’s all about *what* virtues are being signalled. and using the term is signalling for hated and disrespect for a given opinion, without offering anything to the conversation.

      • Dirk Hammer

        I like how you call virtue signalling a BS term but then use “dog whistle”. Do you know who hears dog whistles? Dogs.

        • Muninwing

          ah.. so you’ve never heard the term?

          a”dog whistle” is a loaded comment that has specific meaning to a group of people. so it’s designed to not be heard by most people, but is an effective “virtue signalling” toward that other group.

          white supremacists use them a lot to see who i the room agrees with them. they’ll use a term that’s common to them but potentially meaningless to others, and see who firs back.

          and complaining about other people “virtue signalling” is a way of seeing who agrees with that kind of thinking.

          • Roquet

            when you said the words “white suppremacists” i knew you`re not here for the hobby, what army you have and how many points?

          • Nem

            If only dogs can hear dog whistles, then how do you know what the whistle sounds like?

    • BaronSnakPak

      Necromunda is what’s getting my girlfriend into the hobby. She called dibs on the Eschers, and agreed to learning how to play the game because she likes the models so much.

      More options is a good thing in my book.

      • Muninwing

        the only people who ever seem to feel that more options are bad, are the people who desperately need a sense of superiority, and who feel challenged when “other people” get any attention at all.

        look at Dembski-Bowden’s recent comments on that one. he said it better than i could.

        • Jabberwokk

          Yeah but that’s a strawman because no one is saying more options are bad are they? In fact it’s the fact that you seem to think there are not options in solution other than the one you demand everyone take.

          As for “are the people who desperately need a sense of superiority, and who feel
          challenged when “other people” get any attention at all.” I completely agree.

          • David

            The problem is, if you look at a lot of major 40k groups on facebook – that’s exactly what is being said. Things like “Well eldar have female models and there’s some Tau or you can play Sisters”. If that’s not for you, buy 3rd party stuff. This is where the problems come in.
            The biggest strawman argument being used is Female Space Marines…

          • Jabberwokk

            So when you ask for options and are provided options because you don’t like the options you say people are saying options are bad even though you say the options are bad?

          • David

            I’m not sure if you actually read what you write… or read what other people post… but what you just said has 0 to do with what I said. So…. good for you?

        • Zedatkins Zed

          Agree with Muninwing – the author’s point that better diversity is a win win is true – it means more models, more players and more people having fun.

          Frankly the hard-line hold outs either HATE everyone who isn’t a white guy and deserve to be called out for that; or have an actual problem of their own that stops them from empathizing with the rest of human race (asd, sociopathy, schizophrenia, depression, testosterone deficiency) and deserve our pity.

          In my community there are a lot of gamers with problems so the above is not an insult it is a fact. Gaming can be therapeutic for someone with the above issues, but change is a huge problem for them.

          Also if anyone who saying “women don’t face hostility in the hobby” just bothers to read the hostile reactions they’ll see it.

        • Francisco Ostos Maza

          its not like that,the people dont like changes in the history made 20 years ago because some have an inferiority complex,im not feeling superior,but i want the history respected,i dont even play the figures,but changes to aplease some group,sorry but no

          • Harek Asheim

            “but changes to aplease some group,sorry but no”

            Everytime there’s a new SPESS MEHREENS something-something it’s literally that kind of change.

      • NikosanPrime

        I agree, I have been wanting heads from all ethnicities for a long time. The Marine army I play I always envisioned taking recruits from any world they found suitable candidates on. Due to this the whole chapter would have a very diverse ethnicity and I think that would be cool.

        Beyond that I find it highly unlikely that more than a small number of worlds would be totally of one ethnicity or another. It would be too difficult to stay that way after 38,000 years.

        More likely most of the ethnicities have blended together to become one Pan Asian/African/Rusio-Euro-Indo Caucasian/American/Australian which would be awesome to see modeled.

        But I can dream of ethnic diversity in my models, instead I will just keep putting helmets on all of them so you cannot see what they look like because bullets and shrapnel like exposed skin.

        On the point about women, for most of the militaries I think they should treat it like RoboCop where everything is completely co-ed, armour looks the same male or female and the weapons are the same because anyone should be able to fire a laser.

        The Soritas is another matter, but that is do to pseudo religious crap that I do not buy into. So I guess in their case the sexualized aspect of their armour is sort of ok, but I seriously believe it should be scaled down. It is way too extreme and panders to a teenage outlook that is unrealistic and adds to the problems in our society while hiding behind the writers description of a imaginary society. So, yes, that imaginary society could exist, and yes it would be horrible, truly a “grim darkness” to live in, that doesn’t mean that should only show that to people, especially impressionable minds, as they may then start to think that it is ok.

        But that is me talking as a male in their 40’s worrying about what my 4 year old son is going to be exposed to. Which I am doing my best to educate my son on as I have always lived a relatively extreme lifestyle and I do not believe we should censor too much. However representation of all 4 or 5 genders (depending on who you talk to) should occur so that people understand what exists in the world and are allowed to become whatever they are/want to be.

        Wow, this has gone down a tangent of things I have been wanting to say for years.

        I have seen too much and not enough so these are just a small number of my observations. Try not to be offended if they do not align with your experiences, that’s the great part about diversity, there’s always more to see and experience.

    • TDog

      Don’t harsh on the necrons, dude… ;-D

    • Drake_Marcus

      The glorious Necron race extinguished their males millennia before being transferred into their robot bodies. I assure you they would be horrified that you thought they were male.

      • Tyr

        Well… they do all seem to lack a certain piece of… equipment, I guess… <.<

      • Nitnal Dlareg

        Third party upgrades can fix that!

      • Sybarite

        Yet they’re referred to as he and him.

        • Drake_Marcus

          Humans are always misgendering the noble Necrontyr collective. Trust me- they remember every insult.

    • Erik Sjögren

      DoctorBored for president!

    • georgelabour

      I’m pretty sure that shoving endangered animals into deep pits is animal cruely according to PETA…

      Which means we now need to shove you into that creater too. You cruel, humanocentric purveyoy of sadistophiliacal manonormic animalphobia!

      Or if you could just save the digital lynch mob on time and just head to the gallows during the off hours it’d save the cultists some time they could instead spend persecuting easier targets.

      And remember, it’s for that more inclusive and loving hobby you claim to want. Chop chop, there’s a good wotzit.

      =^.^=

      • DoctorBored

        Touche boss, off I go XD

    • backoos

      Listen I’m not trying to be a dick and i have no problem with female gamers but please answer me this one question and settle a bet between our gaming group (that includes two women), do you own a fedora?

      • DoctorBored

        Nah, that may have been me in the past, but no longer. I want to see the hobby grow, I want to see more people, more positive people, join in and have fun in this community. I don’t want to surrender the hobby I love to a bunch of grumpy farts that can’t get with the times.

    • ZeroOne

      If your significant other does not start with the whole “Is this like in the Big Bang Theory” or “all these people are like [enter name here] in the Big Bang Theory” and then sigh, when entering a shop you are doing well.
      The truth is, that just adding in diversity will not encourage more players from those backgrounds. My partner does not mind me playing as it keeps me busy for a while, but she has after multiple attempts to get her interested in ANY of these types of games 40k, WHF, D&D or Halo. She has no interest in any of them and always treats any attempt to introduce her to the games as an attempt to rot her brain.

      Just adding women to the game would not attract her. She enjoys painting, but wont paint my models for me (and I hate painting I would love her to do that for me), she will paint landscapes and peoples pets, but just has no desire towards painting any of my models, and there are plenty of female models in my D&D collection.
      You need to look at what the market you wish to bring in, is after, and then build that into the game. So market research is key to adding these aspects in correctly. For this GW would have to attend at actual game events where there are real gaming women and not just tag alongs who would rather be doing something they want then pleasing their significant other.

      Until then all attempts will be ham-fisted and hurt the franchise as a whole. Just look at comic books and computer games after their foray into pleasing women because some women screamed really loudly. Those women, whilst a real market, were too small to sustain all those new things aimed at them and the current market lost interest in anything that uprooted itself to hard and left them behind. Laura Croft was a strong woman back in the 90’s what made her such a victim in the 10’s?

      • Tyr

        A good point there: Changing things inevitably alienates people. Just look at edition changes, you always get some people who drop out because they dislike the changes.
        And sure, you probably get some back from the group that youre trying to get into the game – but is that group larger than the one that dropped out? If not, do they buy more than the other group? If both of these answers are no, why change at all? Inclusion on its own doesnt really do anything for your profits, you actually have to gain customers for that.

        And sure, your existing customers might be sexistic bastards, but as the saying goes… pecunia non olet.

      • af

        > “The truth is, that just adding in diversity will not encourage more players from those backgrounds.”

        That’s a bold claim. It seems more your opinion to me. My own opinion is that adding more diversity will indeed encourage more people.

        • Michael Stone

          Shall we look at whats happened with marvel, when people start pushing diversity

    • DoctorBored

      I want to point out to everyone below my original comment: Nowhere did I suggest female space marines, nowhere did the article suggest female space marines, nowhere did I suggest that my girlfriend would be interested in female-only models, and nowhere did I suggest that women would only be attracted to female models.

      I just wanted my girlfriend to be able to see a breadth of options that aren’t just more Space Marines. 🙁

    • Rat Finker

      I don’t think what Feminism40k wants is actual ‘equality’. As they often demand for their to be female space marines, and just straight ban people who disagree with them on their website. It’s not an issue I have with GW updating the sisters of battle line. Or adding in more female models to the boxes for Imperial Guard, or the Eldar, But plenty of groups have female models. I’d love to point out there are tons of female dark eldar models. Just not wych models either. Sometimes it’s even supposed to be impossible to tell the specific sex of models, like many of the eldar armors just being a standardized armor. There’s tons of female inquisitor models, half of the inquisitorial models also include mostly naked men in the first placee.

      Also, maybe your girlfriend just doesn’t like 40k. Plenty of people like star trek over star wars, some even like Dare I say starcraft over warhammer.

    • Dirk Hammer

      It’s not diversity if you make every single fictional universe multicultural. That is actually a lack of diversity. I like how progressive rainbow warriors never actually understand this point.

    • Bob Dylan

      I’m somewhat divided on the representation part. If they want to add female guard or anything that’s already in the lore I will support it, or adding a new faction.

      But I have to question the effectiveness of such a thing. Marvel comics tried to be more inclusive and have more representation and their sales numbers dropped even more.

      Also why is it that women need a female army? Lots of dudes play SoB, play armies that have a mix of males and females. Also why is it that both my ex and my current GF whom I introduced to 40k are completely enamored by filthy nids? xD

    • Dirk Hammer

      Interesting how the cult of diversity never wants to push male characters or white characters into hobbies involving majorly female or black player or fan base.

      • dakkagor

        Can you name one of these supposed fan bases?

        • Dan Paulsen

          If they made their own instead of insisting everything change for them. And by them i mean the small group of special interest persons that dont speak for everyone they claim to.

      • Michael Bradbury

        Which hobbies involving fictional characters have a majorly female or black fan base – but don’t have male or white characters. I genuinely can’t wait to hear your answer.

    • Dirk Hammer

      Why can’t progressives make their own games? Oh that’s right, they have zero creativity, and have to go to established franchises to force their ideology onto the player base.

      • dakkagor

        Wow, you should keep away from ADB’s twitter feed, you’d probably have a seizure. Scratch that, go read his twitter feed, and make sure to record your response.

      • Michael Bradbury

        Your male only fantasies are the ‘ideology’ here.

    • Alex McNabb

      Look at this beta male white-knight.

    • dirtysteve

      Yeah yeah, you make it sound like the people pushing “representation” are just starry-eyed idealists. They are not.

      We’ve seen the absolute garbage they have pushed in other media.

  • DT

    Well that was 5 minutes misspent reading virtue signalling and self back patting that I’ll never get back

    • Joel

      Yet you had time to spare for a pointless remark.

      • CloakingDonkey

        there’s always time for sh*tposting 😉

      • georgelabour

        Oh the irony.

    • Muninwing

      usually, the use of the term “virtue signalling” is at best a dishonest deflection. usually, though, it’s a dogwhistle.

      • Also, I’d argue a good portion of Human behavior is virtue signaling

        • Muninwing

          meaning that actually calling out only the things you don’t like is usually just to stigmatize them or attack the virtues you see being signalled.

          what’s more, since the “i don’t care about PC’ crowd (read: actual in-operation bigots and supremacists and other human trash) is actually signalling each other with this term, they are virtue signalling even as they are denouncing others for doing the same.

          it’s a way to call certain values into question. usually, and since the very beginning of the term, it is used to attack anything not far-right, or anything requiring empathy for a person as a person.

          nobody using that term is using it innocently. it’s an attack.

          • dirtysteve

            You’ve now reached “that” point – “people who dissent are pretty much nazis”.

            Well done you. Consider deleting your account.

        • Drpx

          We had to learn how to make ourselves look better to the other proto-apemen so they wouldn’t beat us to death and eat us.

      • Shadii Rat

        Usually, comments like this are sourced from the writer’s own buttocks.

      • CloakingDonkey

        No it’s a very accurate term that describes people making completely asinine and non relevant statements to make sure everyone knows they are part of “the good guys”. Whoever those good guys are supposed to be in any given case. You wanna talk about dog whistles? How about “inclusive” “representation” and “equality”? Hypocrites 😛

        • Muninwing

          you’re really claiming that the idea of “equality” is a problem for you?

          that says a lot.

          it’s a core belief in the founding of the nation i live in.

          no idea how that’s hypocritical…but i’m not sure words mean what you think they mean.

          • Porty1119

            Equality is a sham that has no bearing in reality. Equal treatment under the law is a noble and valuable concept, but the truth is that some people are better than others. You are not special, you are not somehow ‘equal’ just because you are alive.

          • JN7

            That’s the biggest load of crap I’ve ever heard. Who gets to judge which people are “better?”

          • Porty1119

            Nobody, which is why equality under the law is valuable. Just because somebody is recognized as having certain rights, doesn’t make them any more useful than their weight in fertilizer.

          • Michael Bradbury

            Scary isn’t it that the far right are now emboldened to just say their beliefs in public like its a normal thing!

          • Muninwing

            see… saying that next to that profile pic…

            you’r really going to go there?

            i guess you are proving your own point, just not how you assume…

      • Porty1119

        Using the word “dogwhistle” in this context amounts to the speaker admitting that they have no valid argument and will instead be bleating on about patriarchy or something equally irrelevant to the lives of anyone with a productive job.

        • JN7

          Racists get all sad when you call them racists. Honestly, I’m not sure what I expected from someone who has that loser flag as a pic.

          • Wiqid Mopho

            People that just flippantly use the term racist, demean the term and aren’t any better when it comes to their own bigotry.

        • Muninwing

          i actually cannot do my job without impartiality. so much for your obviously-partisan narrative.

          and coming into a conversation to say something stupid isn’t adding to the narrative, nor is it anything more than the “bleating on” you reference.

      • Michael Bradbury

        To be fair ‘virtue signalling’ is a very useful phrase – it lets me know I can ignore anything that person has to say!

      • dirtysteve

        “Usually” it’s spot on and only gets criticism from people who don’t like their disingenuous apologia being called out.

    • Anthony Pryor

      And that was about 5 seconds of reading a comment from a clueless dipstick who uses terms like “virtue signalling” that I’ll never get back, so I guess we’re even.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Well that was a brain misspent. They come with empathy as well you know…

      • Jabberwokk

        What’s that taste like?

        • Erik Sjögren

          I don’t know. I play Adeptus Astartes 😉

      • Porty1119

        Empathy and humanity are deeply overrated.

        • Erik Sjögren

          Wow, you really are an Astartes. But, again, remember – the Emperor is not a god!

    • PewPewDakkaDakka

      If that took you five minutes to read, you must have needed to consult a dictionary several times.

      • CinderWolf5673

        With how some Intersectionalists talk, I wouldn’t blame him.

  • FCBullsht

    After reading this wall of text I got one question: What is this article about?

    • ToLiveIsToDie

      It is a rehashed version of an article last week that actually addresses this issue directly. The issue being that there is an outcry for gender and ethnic diversity in the models GW puts out. Added to that is a claim of harassment of female players and/or prospective players in stores and online. That last part isn’t something GW can actually do anything about unless it originates from an employee and so does little to emphasize the point trying to be made.

      • Muninwing

        “claim”
        “outcry”
        “rehashed”

        someone isn’t terribly good at being impartial…

        • Strategery.

          standard 2017 sensationalism bleeding over from facebook

        • ToLiveIsToDie

          I am not impartial, nor am I required to be. However, my breakdown of the article is literal. There is no proof, therefore the harassment can only be a “claim”. “Outcry” is the best way to describe the popular movements for equal rights and representation considering there is no legislation as pertains to equal representation of gender and/or ethnic diversity within works of art. At least none that I’m aware of and none that I have heard brewing. So yes “outcry” seems an apt descriptor. Not sure why you find “rehashed” to be triggering. There was an article on this site, last week, which addressed this issue as already having models in the works and to expect them within the next few years. Perhaps “regurgitated” and “rearranged” would suit you better?

      • Logan MacDonald

        Actually, they can. They have a choice and control over who is in their store and the environment. I have been in stores, GW and Rogue Trader, where the employees gave warnings and threats for foul language when children were about, usually saying it is a family environment. Customers that are offensive to other customers or potential customers, they can get kicked out, that is up to the employees.

      • Michael Bradbury

        But the last part is a result of the first. So GW can do something about it.

    • Spacefrisian

      Its about everyone is wrong and bad and we cannot be nice with each other.

      • Chris Hilliard

        Question, why is it a good thing to be nice to people who are harassing you? Doesn’t that just serve to silence victims of harassment while protecting the perpetrators?

    • Drpx

      People wasting their time on Facebook.

  • ToLiveIsToDie

    I certainly wouldn’t turn away some clear gender diversity in the models but ethnicity, as has been pointed out by others, is on the hobbyist.

    Ultimately I’m unaffected since I already play the most progressive army. Nids don’t discriminate between biomass. All comers are welcome, all are accepted equally, all slate wiped clean of past sins.

    • lemt

      Well, that would imply that the only physical difference between ethnicities is skin color, which is far from accurate. If other companies can make miniatures seem, say, asian, it can’t be that hard for GW to do the same.
      Then again, they’ve already stated they are working on changes, but some of the new miniatures are still a few years down the line.

      • Bigalmoney666

        FWIW, I’ve seen people paint the bald marines with dark skin, and that looked pretty damn good.

        • Erik Sjögren

          And again, maybe you should let the target audience decide that?

          • The target audience played 40k for how long now, 30 years? And practically nobody complained about missing representation.
            I’d really like to have some statistics on this but i’d bet this new outrage is mainly coming from outsiders and what seems to be a very small fringe group of players.

          • Erik Sjögren

            The outrage is from you and your likes.
            Me and everyone else I play with welcome this new add on.
            And maybe it won’t bring more women or bigger diversity. But at least we will get cooler models. I tried to build a female Ultra squad but gave up with them heads.

          • Apocryphus

            Just put helmets on them. Female marines would wear the same armor anyway. It’s actually pretty simple to make female marines.

          • Drpx

            Especially since showing female bodies is misogynistic.

          • Female marines would look just like the men anyways. Astartes get recruited at such a young age that the genhancements and hormone treatments would result in very masculine features. They’d basically be trans men.

          • Muninwing

            nope. not at all.

            this issue has been brewing for years, in many places. just because people finally feel like they can speak up more, as other parts of society are finally changing, doesn’t mean that its new.

          • Drake_Marcus

            It’s like Selma all over again. 🙁 Don’t let the comparative pettiness of under-representation of PoC in a 28mm wargame dissuade you from applying the same zeal to this civil rights struggle.

            In case you’re interested, and it’s a pretty brutal thing that would require genuine study and commitment to address in a meaningful way, so no pressure, but China harvests the organs of prisoners after (or in rare cases- before) executing them on demand to sell transplants to rich medical-tourists. The Chinese government has been implicated in having executed and sold the body parts of tens of thousands of Falun Gong persons whose only ‘crime’ was practising religion in a communist country. The brutal oppression, mass imprisonment and execution of these people for ‘on demand’ transplants continues to this day despite decades of awareness on the problem among world governments.

            It’d be amazing if we all cared more about the horrific exploitation and suffering of others. I guess it’s important to change the world in ways that feel most impact to you, though.

          • Muninwing

            off topic.

            and a great example of the kind of whataboutism that derails arguments.

          • Drpx

            The Company will decide what you want.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Nooooo. I have a free will! *Just bought another codex and an extra bag of models*

        • Pete

          But only the bald models. Have you ever seen a GW model that has anything but “Caucasian” looking hair? Also, for what it’s worth, GW is not the only culprit here. It’s hard to find D&D models or other Fantasy ranges that have ethnic diversity. Usually the best you’re likely to find are Asian appearing models, and those models are usually stereo-typically Asian (i.e. ninjas or samurai)

          • Jake Waters

            “caucasian hair”

            oh you must be joking.

          • Drpx

            We demand ‘fros for our bros.

          • Wulfen73

            Find Oriental adventures range or Legend of the five rings stuff

          • The only one I’ve seen doing that right is Malifaux.

          • Mike Bohr

            Really?? Have you ever known anyone in the military? Go look up some pictures, it doesn’t matter what race you are they all have the same hair cut.

          • Pete

            You’re right, I did look up some pictures and a lot of space marines do have pretty “racially neutral” haircuts. Especially the newer models. So maybe GW does better on that front than I’d thought.

          • ZeroOne

            “Caucasian” looking hair? Don’t most people in the military end up with crue cuts anyway?
            I have heard and understand the call for more women in the models and even understand the want of African features, after all, blacks will be the next biggest market for board games as Africa becomes more affluent like the Chinese have, thanks to the Chinese over the next 5-10 years.

            But hair? Hair? You want to see what? Afros, pigtails, cornrows? Now there I will have to laugh at you, that is rediculuaseasaonsdfaonfafognff HAHA!!! *breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!

          • Chris Hilliard

            Yes, because nobody on Earth has anything but straight hair. Those “Afros” are a normal result of certain hair types being combed out. “Cornrows” are braids used to keep such hair in a semblance of neat order. Both of these facts are things ignored by dress codes that lead to punishment for black children across the western world. So having models that represent their natural hair is something that black players can really relate to.

          • Porty1119

            Funny, I don’t see the curly-haired Irish women in my family complaining about being discriminated against…

          • Chris Hilliard

            How many of those curly haired women have been suspended from school for their hair? How many can’t get their hair cut at a salon because none of the employees now how to cut their hair?

          • Drpx

            Dreadlocks on dreadnoughts.

          • There aren’t ninjas or Samurai in 40k though. Also, topknots {I.e Most Eldar and Elves, Abaddon etc…} aren’t caucasian. How can you tell what hair type goes with what race. I know Caucasians with dreads.

        • Spacefrisian

          So do elves btw.

      • Richard Mitchell

        There no such thing as a white, asian, or black model. There are artists, who actually take a persons photo and change it to various ethnic skin tones to show US how our minds exaggerate difference. I am not saying their is no differences but there are the objective reality differences and the one your mind chooses to exaggerate. And I really doubt you can see any of those at 28mm. For example PP painter Meg Maples took a female model and painted it three different ethnicities. They each looked totally different but they were the same model.

      • Majere613

        At the scale of 40k miniatures, there’s not a lot you can do on a model to make it look like it’s from a particular ethnic group, especially when it has a regulation military haircut. In fact, since ‘heroic’ scale models are already caricatures to an extent you’d run the risk of being accused of stereotyping. Personally, I paint my human armies in a wide range of skin tones and you’d have to look very closely indeed to spot anything odd about them.

        • Drpx

          It’s gonna be hilarious when the essjaydubyus GW listened to start complaining that GW’s diversity is secretly and subconsciously racist.

          • To those people EVERYTHING is racist. Except when themselves are racist, that’s fine.

      • Suicidemaniac

        Who the hell is actually asking for these changes? Remember what happened to Marvel comics? People bitched about diversity, Marvel complied and no one liked the “diverse” comics anyway, because barely any of the people bitching read comics to begin with!

        And as an Asian dude who’s been in the hobby for 20 odd years, I find this insanely condescending.

        • Muninwing

          dude… marvel again? i wish people would do their research on that issue,instead of repeating crap canned arguments.

          marvel had a rough year. for many reasons. most of them are self-created, but comics in general had a rough year.

          yet Marvel had a better year than DC did.

          so… how was the “diversity” that one did at fault for their problems, but the one with worse problems was the one that didn’t go that route?

          and what about the fiasco that was Marvel’s crap with Captain America? making the great american hero a de facto nazi, to the widespread negative reaction of large amounts of their fanbase somehow wasn’t at fault for their rough year?

          it’s really easy to use a bad argument that you just repeat from some BS source. it’s ahrder to use a decent one.

          • Suicidemaniac

            You’re right, my bad, heat of the moment I get so tilted at these articles. My argument was barely thought out and from pure hearsay.

          • Michael Bradbury

            Good point – all this BS about Marvel sales being down due to ‘diversity’ and their biggest story featured a while suprematist!

        • Erik Sjögren

          I am. Bring me female, plastic head kits. Now!

          • Nyyppä

            That’s actually a viable idea….also it’s been done by other companies already.

            But, alas, it will not stop there. Once these people get their way once they are going to push and push as long as it takes for them to issue all sorts of stupid company policies which make the business just not viable anymore. So, once the female heads are done there will be demands for female SM etc. right up to a Tyranid slut walk.

            Literally any sort of research on the MO of these people reveals that without an exception everything they can influence will be sooner or later just useless crap. Miniature games are such an easy target to ruin that I’m going to estimate that within 5 years the company is either gone or it’s changed in to something in no way related to it’s current business.

    • Jabberwokk

      Yup. I jest let the DNA standard duke it out in the digestive pools and may the best microbe win. Turns out evolution is a meritocracy. Feast or food baby!

    • Erik Sjögren

      You pretend like you have some insights in the matter? Although you seem utterly blind for the part regarding ethnicity being represented by more than the colour of the paint. I know that you know what I mean.

      And hiding behind Tyranids is not an alibi.

      • CloakingDonkey

        no one needs an alibi. There is no crime and there are no victims you dunce.

        • Erik Sjögren

          Alibi is a parable in this case. So I think you’re actually talking about yourself.

          • CloakingDonkey

            holy crap man your comebacks are some of the weakest most autistic nonsense I’ve ever seen 😛

          • Erik Sjögren

            And your random diagnoses must be some of the most entertaining I read for a long time. What’s next in your colourful bag of awesome insults?

      • Wulfen73

        Oh yeah, your insights have been so much better, mockery and insults, careful not to trip on the red carpet when they give you the nobel prize

        • Erik Sjögren

          Why respect someone who doesn’t give respect to others?

          • Wulfen73

            Exactly Erik, you haven’t given anyone respect here, you have wandered around trolling. I have no idea what your endgame is supposed to be, convince everyone via blatant hypocrisy?

          • Erik Sjögren

            Well, start by reading my other response to you and we’ll take it from there.

          • Wulfen73

            I’ll pass, no offense, but I don’t respect you enough to chase around your nonsense

      • ToLiveIsToDie

        What insight did I pretend to have? I made a statement of opinion regarding model diversity. It was pretty straight forward. As for ethnicity and the fact that the interpretation is a resounding assumption I’m referring only to color speaks volumes of your own narrow thinking. There is modeling putty, both solid and liquid. Use them, sculpt the face you want. Put some love into it, post that and be proud.

        The nids joke was a joke and a statement of fact. I am unaffected by the diversity in the models. It would be nice to see but I feel no need to cry into the ether about it nor attack people who post about it. That is really all there is to it.

    • SilentPony

      To be fair, naming the dark brown skin paint ‘Ratskin’ probably wasn’t the best idea GW had…

      • Maciek Kiliszek

        But what if the idea was that this paint was representing the color of rat’s skin…?
        I know, mind blown, right?

        • Strategery.

          “sh!tskin brown”

          mind browned

        • Erik Sjögren

          It has been written dozens of times already. If you missed it, I repeat it: the faces are clearly caucasian. Painting them in another colour just looks like a white dude on his way to a bodybuilder contest. The facial construct is really different for other ethnicities.

          • Wulfen73

            They sure are, only white people can have really broad weird looking faces

          • Erik Sjögren

            No, but only some white people would argue for not letting in diversity in the hobby.

          • Wulfen73

            Diversity is a meaningless buzzword, probably why you keep saying it

      • Skaven Lives Matter!

      • stinkoman

        are we going to be offended by hobby paint names now?

      • Craig Archer

        Actually it’s a reference to the Ratskin gang’s from necromunda as it’s a flesh tone designed to be more akin to the native american skin tone. Hence why it’s Ratskin rather than Rat Skin

      • Jake Waters

        naming the pale skin tone after an in universe sociopath mad scientist and what is essentially a cenobyte was also a bad idea

        • ReveredChaplainDrake

          Remind me what Abaddon Black is named after…

      • SiberianVI

        my skaven take offense to this post!

      • Drpx

        That’ll be next year’s project.

    • Spacefrisian

      No 40k army is, just certain peeps who think everything should be as they want it to be, being nice to each other isnt allowed.

    • Majere613

      [deleted, missed!]

  • Bon

    Oh god it’s beginning.The viture signaling is real. I would hate whats happened to marvel comics to happen to muh geedubs.

    • Muninwing

      marvel — the most misused example in recent history for bigots to try to prove themselves right.

      marvel had a down year. but why, if it was due to their plan for greater diversity, did DC have a worse one?

      was this “greater diversity” plan also responsible for the market fall in the late 90s?

      • Bon

        Throwing out bigot already?

        • Muninwing

          – dogwhistle term
          – commonly misused example
          – misrepresentation of reality

          yep. i’ll call it what it is. if you don’t like it, try doing your research before jumping to conclusions.

          • Bon

            Fair play mate you caught me, just another nasty bigot here. Continue the witch hunt.

          • Muninwing

            i’ll bite: how do you wish to be treated when you show up and use a pejorative commonly associated with extremists who use it to attack differing ideologies?

            and, furthermore, since you clearly came here to comment on something you disagree with on an ideological level, and not in any way entering into an argument in good faith… how are you *not* “virtue signalling” that intolerance by your use of that pejorative?

            if you want to have a real discussion about the real issue, we can. but you need to drop the crap and approach it honestly.

          • Jabberwokk

            You mean like how you called him a ‘bigot’? I think he understands it from a first hand experiential point of view thanks to you.

          • Muninwing

            ad hominem back to ad hominem.

            using a thinly-veiled pejorative with a mountain of meaning behind it doesn’t mean it’s less of an insult.

            more importantly, using a term that is directly used to excuse bigoted opinions and behaviors, then complaining about being called on it, is just the bully’s defense. you don’t get to punch someone then cry to the teacher when they punch you back.

          • Jabberwokk

            No I’m attacking your action not your character by pointing out your every bit the thing you accuse others of. Your the one attributing motive to people you don’t know. Your also implying you were attacked when the original comment was not even directed at you. Lastly your conflating actual violence with a disagreement.

            Based on your behavior it’s hard not to jump the conclusion that I may be dealing with an ideologe and a hypocritical one at that.

      • Shadii Rat

        Are you seriously screeching bigot because someone said Marvel’s comic sales aren’t doing so good?

        I don’t think you get to talk down to nerds mad about female space marines. I think you belong right along side them.

        • Muninwing

          no. i’m saying that the canned argument that Marvel’s economic troubles are a direct result of their seeking greater diversity — which was what he was referencing — is not only objectively untrue, it is an argument that is commonly rehashed and shared by people with bigoted tendencies.

          if you need to lie to yourself to make you feel better, you can. but don’t bring any of that crap outside your sad corner of the internet.

          if you can’t keep up with the real conversation, maybe you shouldn’t comment.

          • Jabberwokk

            Well at this point it’s more objective calculable fact.

            The fact that the NFL, ESPN, Late night comedy, University enrollment, Move ticket sales…virtual anywhere where left leaning SoJus/Feminist ideas are taken seriously and enforced there’s been a sharp drop in revenue/viewership in all cases. But by all means go ahead, Try it again.

            You want people to change their behavior and your plan is use shame and guilt to force them to do it?

            Good luck.

          • Muninwing

            citation needed.

            because i want numbers.

            reliable sources only please.

          • Bestee

            Not to get involved in this dick swinging competition but Jabberwokk has a point when it comes to the recent viewing figures for NFL since all the non-sense of kneeling and standing along with other elements. You can observe them fairly easily

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Correlation isn’t causation, as several people have pointed out.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/sports/football/nfl-ratings-trump.html

            “According to Mike Mulvihill, Fox Sports’s head of research, nearly 203 million people watched some part of the N.F.L. regular season in 2016, a 5 percent increase from the previous year. “The declines were about a growing pool of fans spending less time with the games each week,” he told SportsBusiness Journal. That suggests the ratings decline was the result of hard-core fans becoming casual ones rather than viewers tuning out altogether.

            The 8 percent drop in ratings between 2015 and 2016 amounted to about 1.4 million fewer people watching each N.F.L. game on average, though ascribing a single motivation to that many people is folly. All of the above reasons, and more, are factors, and it is extraordinarily difficult to understand how important any one of them is on the overall numbers.”

          • Bestee

            This is true and thoughtful thank you. However the only issue is its becoming increasingly transparent to see these trends occurring over PC I am all for various elements of polite encouragement and the right to protest. However its the authoritarian angle that I believe is the cause of the divisions

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            The problem is in the presentation. This happened long before antifascism mobilized, and not by the Left. For instance, when the right decided Gamergate would be their hill to die on, so they called in bomb threats to Anita Sarkeesian’s events so the security concerns cancelled them? Or when they did the same thing to Sophie Belle’s signing at a comic store?

            People got fed up with being bullied, shot to pieces, stabbed, and having their rights stripped from them. Now the far right wants respectability politics because they can’t marshal the force necessary to keep up with their thuggish tactics. I shed no tears.

            And to be clear, I’ve got libertarian friends and the likes. I have no problems with disagreements. But this transcended disagreements a *long* time ago.

          • Bestee

            Yes I fear this is the trap of tribalism that we all often find ourselves in. I am not defending either group in the GG subject however it seems like you may only have one side to a story. There is many elements to that spectre. It will be hard to read but check out the truths on the other side too. Candace Owens may be a good font of extra info on this. As well as taking a look into the Crash Override Network leaks. Sadly a lot that was claimed about varying levels of corruption and character assassinations happened to come from the side of the “victim”. I hope you understand I have good intentions with our discussion. These subjects are difficult to talk about without emotions.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            I think my stance on GG is independent of its content. I don’t actually like Anita Sarkeesian at all, and I don’t care at all for the actual debate because I think in general gaming media is utter garbage. The only point I raise there is that it was not “the Left” that resorted to no-platforming tactics first, which makes this appeal to “debate” and rejection of “divisive” discourse kind of empty to us.

            In short, we didn’t start it, no one wanted to do anything about it. We thus took it upon ourselves to fix it, and *now* people are upset. So we don’t exactly feel compelled to appeal to their concerns.

          • Bestee

            These opinions are all fine my friend and I am listening. However I am not one to chase blame and preach on whom I think started this sort of culture war. I agree with you on your points regarding the gaming media. I had some issues with that industry and was exiled from multiple friends. This made me a gamer-gater in their eyes even though I only tried to piece together all the arguments. I hope I can bring you one step closer in seeing that we have a wide world of varying subjects which the “right” and the “left” play their wars on. The stones have been launched by both sides on many of these areas. Please do not let it effect your judgement on well meaning people with differing opinions.

            Apathy is a struggle but I really encourage you to ignore the polite opinions of the opposition (you can ignore the rude, vulgar and senseless ones that’s a given.) 🙂

            Thanks for the talk and we will maybe chat again sometime.

            All the best.

          • Drpx

            Snarkeesian doesn’t even play video games.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Irrelevant.

          • Porty1119

            You do not want to see the force the right can muster. Recall that Chile is the most prosperous country in South America for a reason.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Already saw what the right mustered in Germany in the 1940’s. And then it got stomped out by Communists. So meh.

          • Jabberwokk

            Then by all means stop implying that lack of females in the Hobby games is due to the causation of (accusational) behavior of it’s player base.

            If you want to target a new market then do some legwork and come up with a product that appeals to said demographic.

            I could reverse this whole argument to blame the shoppers of Victoria secret are being exclusionary to men. It must be the shoppers and VS’s intrinsic misandristic notions that only women wear bras and like lacy underwear!

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Meanwhile, Major League Soccer enjoys tremendous growth.

            http://www.oregonlive.com/mls/index.ssf/2016/07/espns_tv_ratings_for_mls_are_u.html

            And yet soccer has always had a pretty strong left wing bias. Anti-Nazi, anti-racist, and antifa banners are pretty common even in the US among the SGs.

          • Jabberwokk
          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Funnily enough, goal-post moving isn’t a feature of either sport. If you can’t accept the defeat of your point with dignity, then don’t pretend to care about “debate.”

          • Jabberwokk

            Can you?

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Better than you can actually stay on task.

          • Jabberwokk

            Your the one who conflated NFL very public political stances with the viewership of soccer games……Seems to me the less ESPN focused on pandering and more on the sports people wanted to see the more viewership they got. Imagine that….catering to your target demographic.

          • Bestee

            Thanks again for the food for thought, I am based in the UK and Soccer is huge here. I am sorry to say but it has no political alignment. Like all things it has a light and dark side, Sometimes shining bright other times grimmer than grim dark. But I think there may be a correlation of the rise of Soccer in the US because of the sorry to use a cliche “Virtue Signalling” of the other big firms. Even if Soccer is progressive in the states we rarely hear much about it when it comes to the main media circus and seldom here about grandstanding. (With exception of the World Cup Female Winners and the pay-gap area).

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            In England it tends to be more apolitical, sure. In Spain, where I’m from, that’s most certainly not the case. The team from the town I’m from’s SGs use Che Guevara as their logo. Rayo Vallekano has an explicitly antifascist message because those were the working class neighborhoods who resisted the Franco regime. Neighborhoods were people who weren’t even soccer fans contributed to the resistance in grueling ways. My father still tells me stories of women pouring boiling hot water onto riot cops, and watching them trying not to panic while they pulled off their riot gear in a way that wouldn’t peel off their skin completely.

            I’d also add that there’s a certain level of perception that isn’t necessarily something everyone pays attention to. England may generally be more apolitical, with exceptions like Liverpool. But you can’t claim the Rangers/Celtic rivalry in Glasgow is apolitical.

          • Bestee

            Yes there will always be areas within all things that are political/ideologically driven into conflict. However this is the outliers of the larger areas.

            I must admit I find it hard to imagine Che Guevara on the shirt of a football team. Thats crazy to me. He is a man in history who made his mark that is for sure. Is he viewed as a “hero” in the eyes of the team or just simply the mascot and history? After all the dude did put homosexuals to death on mass.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Also the US has a whole host of terrible issues relating to how soccer is organized. We don’t even do relegation and promotion in our divisions, and the whole thing is run with terrible marketing in mind. I love USL and MLS, but lord is it a mess. It’s succeeding in spite of the owners, and definitely not because of them.

          • Bestee

            I hope they are able to get more organized and bloom into a massive success I think my opinion stands on the thought though.

          • Spacefrisian

            The most terrible being that you US keep calling it soccer instead of its actual name, football.
            What you call football should be American Rugby.

          • Drpx

            I call it Concussion pile.

          • Drpx

            Probably the commies from Latin America.

          • Muninwing

            you want to point to an unresolved issue mid-swing and use it as an example?

            sorry, that doesn’t even make sense.

          • Bestee

            A unresolved issue does not change the matter that these forms of issues cause various demograpic’s to boycott various worlds.

            How does it not make sense? Also I do not believe its the sole reason for the loss in viewing figures but you must consider its likely for people to have an issue with things like this.

          • Jabberwokk

            I have them but let’s be honest….do you really care? I mean step away form the keyboard look in the mirror and say ask yourself this question: Would I change my mind?

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            They’re probably slowly turning to the better sport. You know, where the fans are famously anti-racist and sport antifa banners.

            http://www.oregonlive.com/mls/index.ssf/2016/07/espns_tv_ratings_for_mls_are_u.html

          • Jabberwokk

            Then keep going. Though I’m sure that has nothing to do with the politics and everything to do with soccer being lucrative with every culture on the planet that is not the USA. If i had investments in ESPN that’s what I would be advising, roll with he demographics which are changing rather dramatically.

          • Muninwing

            translation: “i got nothing credible…”

            or else you would have walked away.

          • Jabberwokk

            No I just don’t think you would be convinced.

            But as an example look at sales for the Ghost Buster remake.
            http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ghostbusters-box-office-loss-sequel-unlikely-918515

            As for Marvel here’s a sample
            http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-09.html

            Look at the top 10 books sold. Legacy is #1 and only because they brought back a lot of the characters people actually liked. Prior to this they were losing out to DC who have been rocking sales with the launches of both Rebirth and Metal.

            Then of course there’s always this gem before they walked it back
            https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/03/marvel-executive-says-emphasis-on-diversity-may-have-alienated-readers

            And there’s the fact that retailers are holding that position as its affecting their bottom line as well as the raw data showing sales is in a death spiralhttp://thekingdominsider.com/marvel-comics-sales-decline-2017/

            The you tube channel Diversity & Comics has a lot of videos concerning comic book sales and has a bit of ‘insider baseball’ perspective of what’s going on. Some of the stuff is pretty egregious. Which is sad because I’ve only been a marvel fan. But I seriously doubt your all that interested in the potential threat here and am more concerned with being right.

          • Muninwing

            the Guardian article that was walked back” thanks to the whole interview surfacing… and it becoming apparent that the guy said nothing of the sort…

            Ghostbusters… was also a complicated issue. if it had cost less (like any reboot of a comedy series should, under $100M), then it’d have been hailed as a modest success. its opening weekend was not bad — it beat Pacific Rim a couple years prior… and that got a sequel, despite having a higher budget and a lower gross.

            actual industry sources blame the underperformance on the director more than any boycott, since some of his approach to the movie increased its budget by about 30%.

            but in repeating your canned argument, you knew all that, right — since of course you did your research instead of reposting some crap you got from some partisan sources, right?

          • Jabberwokk

            Pacific rim made over 300 Million overseas and just over 100 domestically. Far above what Ghostbusters made. Mostly because they wanted that sweet chinese audience money.

            And I imagine the sequel will unfortunately do worse without Del Torro at the helm. It was a very artsy movie. Watched the commentary on the DVD as its one of my top 3 favorite movies.

            It’s not complicated. Feminism doesn’t sell because it’s innately discriminatory, sexist, and alienating to anyone who won’t identify as feminist. The very name is the antithesis of inclusion. And you have just as much admitted that your fine with excluding people so I take that as an admission.

            As for your other excuses for lack of results do as you wilst then. But I’ve seen the numbers and know a dead investment when I’ve see one. The best part is all I got to is wait and watch the proverbial bodycount rise and watch silly thinkers like yourself twist yourself in knots trying to explain it all when occam’s razor is applicable. Your ideas are just bad for business.

          • Vinny Bulloch
          • Muninwing

            debunked by the full interview:

            https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift

            “io9 and AV Club have taken a line from this interview out of context and used it in a way that is borderline libelous, claiming that David Gabriel is blaming Marvel’s poor sales on diversity. This is not what he said, and in fact he implies that they don’t think that’s the case at all, despite hearing that from retailers. He goes into detail on several factors that caused their poor numbers, and readily owns up to errors that the company has made in their marketing strategy. In other words, he’s a perfectly reasonable person making perfectly reasonable comments about an unfortunate market shift.”

          • Lux

            You got problems, man.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Nothing will happen to your miniatures. No one will break in and swap them out. You do know that, don’t you?

      • Jabberwokk

        Yes but that was going to happen regardless. So why bother with this? Seems unnecessary.

        • Erik Sjögren

          Simple. To show anyone reading this that not all white males are dinosaurs.
          Are the dinosaurs going to change? No. But they should be ashamed just the same and crawl back from where they came from.

          • Drake_Marcus

            Someone who bases their opinion of me on my skin colour or sex is only showing their own bigotry.
            Is there anything more shallow and pathetic than judging someone on the basis of their genitals or ethnicity?
            My skin and sex chromosomes are NOT predictive of the content of my
            character. I can’t imagine a situation where I would claim to represent a cohort of humans on the basis of information you find on my driver’s license.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Yes there is something more shallow. Being more occupied in defending your own ego instead of standing up for females being harassed in the hobby.

          • Wulfen73

            Dude, this is entirely about your ego

          • Drake_Marcus

            “Erik Sjögren Jabberwokk • 3 hours ago Simple. To show anyone reading this that not all white males are dinosaurs.”

            Who’s acting on ego? You made this about yourself. I’m pointing out that the framework you chose to explain your post in is inherently racially and gender-biased.

            My daughter feels at home at our local GW and loves painting and talking to the employees there. I’m fortunate right now because she hasn’t been _told_ she has limitations or that people will treat her different because her skin is darker. She’s smart enough to know the world is her oyster and my only fear is that someone out there will fool her into thinking she can’t be whatever she wants to be if she works her tail off. I won’t let her live in a cage inside her own mind.

          • Muninwing

            given how many people deal with that on a daily basis without the ability to walk away from it, it’s interesting that you can’t even bear the hint of it…

          • Wulfen73

            Interesting that your answer to bigotry is more bigotry, seems kind of self defeating to me

          • Muninwing

            interesting that you don’t understand what you’re talking about… or the definitions of the words you use…

          • Drake_Marcus

            Is it? Or maybe it’s just… my opinion and no more or less valid of a coping mechanism than your choice? I mean it makes sense for me and my family but I’m happy for you if your way works better for your purposes. *shrug* I don’t presume to know what you deal with nor would I tell you how to do so unless you asked for advice.

          • Jabberwokk

            But What if I Identify as a Dinosaur? Why should non Dinosaurs be shames for not being Dinosaurs? I was Born a Dinosaur!

          • Drpx

            I’m T-Rex rawr!

          • Erik Sjögren

            Evolution did not fare well with you, my friend. I mean, how do you even use your iPhone with those tiny arms?

    • Erik Sjögren

      Shame! Shame! Shame!
      *BOLS ringing*

      • Muninwing

        the fragility here is pretty impressive. some people lose it if you dare even hint that they should think about something different than them.

        • Erik Sjögren

          I totally agree. Like, for instance making female models for better representation.

  • Jakub Jánošík

    TLDR : I have built an inexistent problem now you deal with it !

    • Erik Sjögren

      Maybe it’s time to grow up and realize we’re in the 20th century?

      • Muninwing

        too many people want to live in the past… look at how many people still want to be constantly reminded of the treason that was the civil war…

        • Jabberwokk

          I’m not sure there’s a place for me and people I care about in your future.

          • Muninwing

            not if they want to exclude other people.

            sounds like you are trying that old like about how “tolerant people are really intolerant” — not realizing that tolerance is a truce, not a stance. a society is built of people who don’t need to agree, but have to try to get along. intolerance is the refusal to get along, and a danger to a society. tolerance is the idea that you try to get past that, not that you’re automatically in agreement.

            intolerance is violating that truce. it’s also antithetical to a functional society.

            your quoting extremist sources and using canned arguments shows that you’ve never really thought about how bad those arguments really are. if the people you care about are as bad as their association would imply, i doubt they understand either. and the rest of us would be better off if you keep them, if they can’t behave like adults.

          • Jabberwokk

            And you want to exclude those people. So again, your no better.

            You do nothing but assume and attribute motive to people you know nothing about.

            You assume positions of moral authority on what a society is, wants, and should be doing. You rewrite definitions of words mostly in self serving fashion and assume these definitions are agreed upon by all parties when they are not. You use regurgitated arguments and dogma to make your points. And you assume you know the intents of people based upon the groups you think they associate with.

            Your whole ensemble assumes an unearned intellectualistic persona overwhelmed by the exuberance of your own verbosity and think it clever when it is nothing but tantamount to a petulant child.

            You havn’t a clue what your on about.

          • Muninwing

            hahahaha…. the old “discriminating against people who discriminate is worse than the original discrimination” defense? really?

            a regurgitated argument. which you then try to attack me for.

            like i said… tolerance is a truce. violating that truce voids your rights to be included. that’s not discrimination, that’s basic respect.

            if you cannot understand basic respect, then we’ve got nothing to discuss. nothing either of us will say from here on out matters unless that’s a basic tenet.

          • Jabberwokk

            As opposed to your banal deflection and denial. As Freud said sometimes a cake is just a cake.

            And as I said you can’t re define terms that are obviously self serving and not agreed upon by both parties. Like your nebulous and incorrect definition and application of tolerance but how awful conveniant for you to a war yourself with an unearned and unrecognized authority to lambasted people you want to exclude.

            As for respect that is earned and you have earned my lack there of quite convincingly.

        • Drpx

          Abe Lincoln killed half a million Americans to increase the power of the Fed.

          • Muninwing

            … but any of them were traitors, so who cares?

            living in the past.

            and given that the people who died in the south were just reinforcing the “american aristocracy” of the south that was pushed for by the wealthy landowners who already fancied themselves nobility… the fight was also against the nation becoming exactly what the founding fathers fought against.

            but posting such ridiculous things, you already knew that and decided on our point of view, right?

      • CloakingDonkey

        oh is it 2017 again already? Could you tip any harder, Erik?

        • Erik Sjögren

          Well I’m going for slow change. I’m satisfied if the dinosaurs start living in the century women got the right to vote and apartheid was denounced 😉 This century? Naaaw. That’s having to high expectations…

      • Jabberwokk

        Well if you going the wrong way the most progressive thing to do is turn around and walk back.

        • Erik Sjögren

          That says absolutely nothing.

          • Jabberwokk

            To someone resolute in walking off a cliff I suppose it would.

      • William Bellamy

        21st century.

        • Charax

          Thank god I wasn’t the only one thinking that

        • Erik Sjögren

          No. 20th. Read above.

      • Porty1119

        I’d say it’s time to grow up and realize the clock needs to be turned back a few decades. The last fifty years were a mistake that is gradually being corrected.

        • Erik Sjögren

          Sounds legit. Well, good luck with that.

    • Koonitz
  • Flashman

    In the comments I see some people falling over themselves in an effort make the author’s point for them.

    • 415Native

      She called them out perfectly: “Why change our precious hobby, then? Ask the frothing, furious fans who spend the better half of their day finding ways to harass other fans who also want to make small plastic soldiers kill each other.”

  • Kevin Maloney

    See I wonder if the comments would be as incendiary as they are if the dreaded F word hadn’t been used…

    • Drpx

      This article should have had a trigger warning. Also, lol, Feminist 40k is like saying, Parole Officer Dredd.

  • dinodoc

    delete

  • dinodoc

    Based on some of the comments here you’d think GW making Plastic Sisters and allowing people to make the Valhallan 597th would be part of a conspiracy to kill 40K

    • Drpx

      They aren’t making plastic sisters. They’re going to make some female heads to go on male bodies and call it progress.

  • 415Native
  • AWarhammerPlayer

    Feminists have the perfect army to play though. Tyranids are exactly what a feminist wishes to be. They are a hive mind that finds nice planets or places, swoops down, consumes anything that’s not like them and blurps it out as another one of themselves. Then it moves on to the next thing.

    They should just leave well enough alone and learn that not everything is misogyny and not everything is meant to appeal to them. 40k is fine and only people who wish to be offended by it get offended. They can go find something else to do. People who actually enjoy it don’t want outsiders changing it.

    I would be 100% ok with female guard models and plastic sisters though.

    • Muninwing

      i don;t claim to be a feminist, but how in any way does your strawman here help anything? if you want a real argument, have it with a real person instead of using an exaggerated stereotype to try and fail to be funny with.

      it makes your “they’ meaningless, since you’re not presenting an honest argument.

      • AWarhammerPlayer

        They = the typical feminist that complains about a miniature game.

        And it’s an accurate assessment of how these people act.

        Wanna play 40k? cool have at it but don’t expect the people making it to adapt it to your every wish.

        • Muninwing

          “they” = straw feminists, not real ones.
          then “they” = imaginary people who should “know their place”

          how is this not proving them (the actual them, the real people who care about this and see so much of this crap) right?

          this is a “sit down and shut up” comment. that means it’s someone who feels their majority power is being threatened. is including girls in your clubhouse that scary?

          more than that… did you even read the article? as it says, the lore lately has been changed dramatically. why not adapt it so it is able to be accessed by more than just the narrow set of people that it shows off now? that’s actually just good business sense.

          • AWarhammerPlayer

            I have no issues with girls who play 40k or any other game for that matter. my problem is when 1% of a group of people want to impose their standards on the other 99%.

            If GW decides to rewrite the lore again to add female space marines that’s ok as long as they decided it was best for their game and was decided on their own terms. Its not ok when they have their arm twisted by people with a political agenda until they give in.

          • Muninwing

            given that this itself is a political agenda, why does your comment only go one way?

    • dinodoc

      “I would be 100% ok with female guard models and plastic sisters though.”

      Which is what most people are asking for other than the idiots pining for female space marines.

      • Muninwing

        i’m split on the “female space marines” issue.

        on one hand, they’ve butchered the old lore so much with Deus Ex Cawl running around and doing as he pleases…so why not?

        not like the Sisters are getting any attention.

        on the other hand, there’s a whole slew of creepy guys who fetishize everything, who have pushed for it too. and on principle, i just don’t want to enable that.

        • Drpx

          The art is already on the Internet.

    • Logan MacDonald

      I can point to semi-naked Dark Elf sex slaves and a banshee model that has an exposed nimple to suggest 40K and GWubs is not fine. Many editions ago their were actually female Space Marine models, so over time the variety of female models has been narrowed down and over-sexualized.
      There could easily be a mix of genders in most armies, instead Eldar are the only one and it is a minority. That also plays to stereotypes that not all women might want.
      As for the hive mind thing…rather than feminists you may wish to look at yourself as you sound like a chauvinist drone.
      In a free market economy most things should appeal to most people to attract a wider consumer base. It is prejudice and stereotype that gets people to underestimate their own demographic and decrease the appeal. These women already like Warhammer but they cannot find an army that can represent them. If treated properly they would be make up as much of the consumer base as white men, they deserve to be represented in the product range.

      • AWarhammerPlayer

        “I can point to semi-naked Dark Elf sex slaves and a banshee model that
        has an exposed nimple to suggest 40K and GWubs is not fine”

        This is your opinion. Not everyone is as prudish as you. To each their own. If you don’t like the models don’t buy them and stop trying to impose your own standards to other people.

        “In a free market economy most things should appeal to most people to attract a wider consumer base.”

        40k is already prohibitively expensive for a lot of people so this argument falls apart. If they wanted to expand to a larger consumer base they would have to drop prices first and then maybe as they see more women or younger kids start to play they would adjust the models to follow suit. not the other way around.

        “These women already like Warhammer but they cannot find an army that can represent them.”

        You don’t need to feel represented by an army to play the game. They can also try looking outside the GW range of models to find something they want. Victoria miniatures sells amazing female guard models as an example.

      • Lux

        Do those models even exist anymore? Someone pointed out the slave models to me a while back but they’re apparently long gone and were ancient models anyway.

    • Jabberwokk

      Hey man I never did anything to you….I just want to eat your planet. Can’t you just go back to referring to me as Xeno scum?

    • Erik Sjögren

      How is single life treating you?

      • AWarhammerPlayer

        10/10 Love the though that went into this comment. I should use this next time someone says something that i disagree with rather then forming an intelligent response. Discourse is dead in 2017.

        • Erik Sjögren

          Oh, you mean like the long thought you had before telling feminists they should play Tyranids?
          Also – I’m a big fan of your spelling.

    • Arch Warhammer made a pretty similar point to this.

      There’s already Feminid fanart around.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJsmWkkZsk

    • Michael Bradbury

      Wow. I didn’t know they had Warhammer back in 1897.

  • JimmyBoom

    So they wrote all this to simply say “We want more women in the Guard?” Why not say that instead? I want women in the Guard too, but I also like to keep my point concise.

    • Muninwing

      one part of a bigger issue.

      • JimmyBoom

        I am sorry but I’m really having trouble understanding what is the bigger issue.

        • Erik Sjögren

          That is OK. Then just carry on playing with your toy soldiers.

          • JimmyBoom

            I made an honest statement and that’s the answer I was given. If that is the kind of change 40k needs then I can see why so many people are against it. My question still stands, what is the bigger issue?

          • Erik Sjögren

            If that is the case then my sincere apologies.
            The bigger issue is that BOLS published something about GWs pending diversity in models. The response was a never ending flood of denial from a large number of readers that females wanted this at all.
            The even larger picture is a large amount of female testimonials regarding sexist comments and all out harassment as a female player making them feeling unwelcome in the 40k community.

          • Wulfen73

            Testimonials, always entirely reliable, it’s why I always buy stuff on infomercials

          • Erik Sjögren

            So women saying they’re being harassed would be a make up? Because why? Your mother would be ashamed of you!

          • JimmyBoom

            Oh I don’t think I can add anything to the conversation.
            I’ve been gaming for about 14 years across two different countries but I have yet to meet a single woman who plays 40k, or any wargame for that matter. My impression is that they tend to stick to boardgames and RPGs.

          • Erik Sjögren

            It’s about the same here. But there’s some really awesome painters though.

  • Roman Himmelhan

    read Dan Abnett books. Those concerning the Inquisition. You’ll have lots of female action in all layers. There, you can find the real rich 40k. Of course, you can’t demand the same from the usual 12 year old fanboy and from those guys who have to offer what a 12 year old wants. There is 40k for grownups, but it’s required that you’re able to read whole books… 😉

    • dinodoc

      I would like to field the Valhallan 597th on the tabletop though.

      • Roman Himmelhan

        Ciaphas Cain novels are also great. Plus, the narrating (female) Inquisitor seems to be one of the few people with a sane mind there 😉

        • dinodoc

          I would love an Amberley Vail model.

      • Porty1119

        Third-party models are what you seek. There is more out there than GW.

    • lemt

      Well excuse me, but audiobooks are awesome and require no reading prowess. In fact, they are GREAT for painting sessions.

    • Logan MacDonald

      True, but many 40k fans wish to be able to have that on a table in mixes of plastic and metal as well.

  • Tzompantli

    I am totally on board with better female representation in 40k. Among other things it will make the setting more “fantasy real.” I know, I know – only men are supposed to be combatants, yadda, yadda. Whether you believe that or not, that was not the point of 40k – creating a “realistic” military setting. That what historic tabletop games are for. 40k is about capturing some dark, insane version of the future and, if you have ever ready any of the 40k fiction, that is why the authors include men and women. Leave women out of the story and it all feels quite fake.

    One thing I wouldn’t mess with, however, is the all-male space marine. They are an amalgamation of so much of western understandings of the ideal warrior: honorable, fearless, bloodthirsty, hyper-masculine, a boys club. Effectively they epitomize all that is good and bad about tropes of masculinity and violence. So to insert female characters into that mix undermines the very definition of what is a space marine. Leave them as a safe-space-army for folks uncomfortable with the notion of female soldiers.

    At the same time, for godsake, expand the lines where females are present and logically belong. And diversify the representation of females, on par with male representation. Feminist or not, do it to freshen up the model line.

    First and foremost, SoB. Paradoxically hyper-sexualized-yet-not-sexual, pious, combat nuns is just too good of an idea not to expand the line. But ditch the repentia – they make no sense. Follow that up with female IG – so many good characters in the fluff, lets see them represented in miniatures. Female cultists – a no brainer. More inquisition. Why no ladies in Adeptus Mechanicus? Necrons – some of the best Tomb King characters were female, or was the Necron race dying because they ran out of females?

    And really AoS is where GW has a clean slate to work with – female free people, aelves, undead, female chaos, etc. Not having female blood reavers was a missed opportunity – cannibal barbarian warrior women taking skulls for the Blood God. Such a good idea.

    • Erikjust

      The Repentia makes alot of sense in the 40k universe, they are basically what slayers where to the Dwarfs in old fantasy. Sisters who in some way have failed the Emperor, to such a degree, that the only way they see themselves being able to redeem themselves is through self mututalion and dying in glorious battle.
      If you really wanted to “improve” upon them have different ranks kinda like the dwarven slayers had.

      As for Age of Sigmar well in the old warhammer Fantasy there was a female demonprincess called Valkia the Bloody.
      Though she was killed in the End times, you could always wiggle up some fluff, with Khorne initially wanting to reabsorb her for her defeat.
      He chose to give her a second chance and greatly diminished from what she once where, she never the less seeks to regain her gods favor once more.

      • Tzompantli

        I meant the models for the Repentia – they are a bit too “lets get naked and hold giant phalli” for my tastes.

        Valkia is still playable in AoS. You can even bring her into Gorechosen to kick some butt.

        • Erikjust

          Meh the models is fine as for naked well if you call this naked https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/61/Sister_Repentia.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120125195646

          Sure they´re naked and carrying a huge chainsword.
          But sure you could change their weapon up a bit so they had a broader range of close combat weapons.

          • Tzompantli

            Exactly – why would a sister seeking absolution with the emperor need to do it wearing a leather one-piece bathing suit and wielding a giant chain sword? There is a disconnect between the model and the fluff. Unless she is trying to fulfill a particular fantasy of the emperor’s.

            Don’t get me wrong – I don’t mind female models in skimpy outfits. Lelith Hesperax is one of my favorite models. Dark Eldar are a good example of female minis done right in 40k.

        • Valeli

          Agree. I didn’t like those models. I’m cool with the whole fake-goth-in-space corset thing, but putting out mostly naked models with big phallic weapons crossed over into pretty bad taste imo.

          You can do kitschy and/or Grimm dark without having to go that over the top.

          Decent conversion opportunity for ambitious people at least…. Most of my ambition stayed stuck in my mind, sadly.

    • Evil Otto

      “Necrons – some of the best Tomb King characters were female, or was the Necron race dying because they ran out of females?”

      They’re 60+ million year-old robot skeletons. It think, at that point, gender is moot. Sorry, but do half the Necrons need roboboobs to show that they (were) female?

      • Tzompantli

        Robot skeletons – rib cages don’t have boobs. My point was there was nothing stopping them from making a female named Necron character. Here its a matter of fluff, not modelling.

  • Txabi Etxebarrieta

    Honestly I’m just impressed at how intellectually bankrupt people are about the whole thing.

    This doesn’t even require retconning, which has been done on a much bigger scale before with the Necron dynasties. Cawl’s already mass-producing new, magically better Space Marines. The whole theme is that the dark ages are practically being overturned because a Primarch is back. And since it’s a bio-essentialist argument that “it’s established in the fluff women can’t be space marines because of the biology of the transformation process” I really have to question how the Imperium mastered the technology necessary to punch a hole in the universe to travel at faster-than-light speeds through Hell, but can’t quite come to grips with estrogen. Which, apparently, is a more fundamental mystery of the 40k universe than general relativity.

    There’s literally no reason not to add Space Marines. Not a one besides crybaby snowflakes wanting a safe space for men.

    • AWarhammerPlayer

      They have female space marines and they’re called the Sisters of Battle.

      • Txabi Etxebarrieta

        Cool, a neglected and poorly developed range. What a wonderful argument you brought up, and why is it relevant to the fact that the Imperium of man is being transformed and people would like the poster children of 40k to be better represented?

        • Valeli

          If by poster children you mean marines, the issue for some folk is (as I’m pretty sure you’re aware) that this representation qualitatively changes who the poster children are.

          Marines have allways been over the top bro-testosterone in the same way that the sisters of battle have had their own over the top stylization.

          This sort of treatment has never been exclusive to the female army in 40k, and has apparently been very economically successful where stereotyped men are concerned. I hardly know anyone without marines.

          Changing the style or gender make up of /either: ranges is inherently significant as such. It makes them something different.

          This stands in total contrast to the imperial guard, for instance, where women would make perfect sense without disturbing the range’s feel (in their case, infinite disposable bodies and/or artillery).

      • Txabi Etxebarrieta

        Or let me put it another way. Space Marines have the Black Carapace. Sisters do not. Thus Space Marine power armor is better than Sisters power armor.

        If I’m trying to save the Imperium from total destruction, why am I not trying to master technology that will let the other half of my species get organs which allow them to wear better armor?

        • AWarhammerPlayer

          Because innovation is outlawed in 40k. It’s a huge part of the “Grimdark”.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            Did you miss the part where I already talked about Cawl innovating new magically better marines and Guilliman basically wrestling political control from the people who made innovation against Imperial Law?

            Because innovation has sorta been the theme of the past year or two in the Imperium.

          • Txabi Etxebarrieta

            This is, for the record, why I call you people intellectually bankrupt. I am absolutely willing to entertain and even accept reasons why a retcon would be wrong.

            “But Txabi, it’s the Imperium! It’s basically Catholic Space Nazis! They aren’t supposed to be good people and needless gender division is exactly the kind of thing they’d enforce as part and parcel of totalitarian rule!”

            But you can’t even put in *that much* effort into it. You’re mechanically peddling the same, poorly thought out excuses and trying to apply them now, in an era of transformation. This isn’t even some weird fetishization of atmosphere, tone, or intent. You’re literally just upset about the idea that women might play a bigger role in 40k and are finding shoddy excuses to justify your position after the fact.

            Oh, and then crying about the injection of politics afterwards, as if your incessant complaining is actually somehow apolitical.

          • AWarhammerPlayer

            Your putting words in my mouth that i never said. 40k has its own rules that exist outside the scope of reality. If GW decided that women cant be space marines ,for whatever reason, then that’s their choice. But to their credit they did make an army that is also all Female. Just because a specific army has some fluff that you don’t like doesn’t mean you have any right to make them change it.

            Personally I don’t like Eldar because “Elves in space” is not Scifi enough enough for me. But i don’t go around raising hell saying “Eldar need to be be changed into [blank] cause i don’t like it”. I know that Eldar are not for me but for others who enjoy that and I respect that by not trying to change something they enjoy to suit myself.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Still on the internet? Get off. Start treating women with respect. And get a girlfriend.

          • AWarhammerPlayer

            Good job dude. You really got me with that one. /s

            Feel free to join the debate rather then sling insults from the peanut gallery.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Thanks. Appreciation for a good job is always welcome 🙂
            But OK, let’s have an argument.
            If a man don’t respect women’s rights, do they themselves deserve to be treated with respect?

        • Apocryphus

          I would argue that Sisters are a little more hardcore than marines because they DON’T have the Black Carapace. They are just normal humans who use marine equipment and overcome impossible odds through sheer willpower (that’s essentially what acts of faith are) and are arguably more important as an extension of the Inquisition, used to combat extremely dangerous internal threats. Space Marines are just army heroes, Sisters are the ones keeping the Imperium together from the inside, and that is way more inspiring and awesome to me.

      • Bigalmoney666

        For someone who’s so worried about the precious fluff of 40k being ruined, you don’t seem to have a very complete grasp of it (ie. the difference between Sisters of Battle and Space Marines)

        • Txabi Etxebarrieta

          What even is the Black Carapace :p

    • dinodoc

      You’ll get plastic Sisters before anyone at GW ever begins to consider Female Space Marines.

      • Erikjust

        i would mind a plastic sister of battle army, where the fluff gets a bit bolstered, with the materials in various books and such.

        Also all the side games GW once had leaves plenty of room for female models.
        If i recall correctly the games where
        Blood Bowl
        Mordheim
        Necromunda
        Battlefleet Gothic
        Epic
        Inquisitor

        Now we already have had GW re-release some of the games.
        But Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic and Inquisitor have yet to be released.
        And at least on two games Mordheim and Inquisitor there´s room for several female characters.
        Sure with the whole Age of Sigmar thing happening you might want to tweak Mordheim a bit here and there, but still it could be a great game.

        And if GW doesn´t want to make it and Forge World too busy, sit down and make a deal with Fantasy Flight or some other game company to make the game.

    • lemt

      “I really have to question how the Imperium mastered the technology necessary to punch a hole in the universe to travel at faster-than-light speeds through Hell, but can’t quite come to grips with estrogen.” Txabi Etxebarrieta, 2017. I am going to quote and reference you from now on.

  • rrooster1977

    I’m just gonna say this and don’t give a crap who gets triggered but I for one can’t wait to see some FEMALE SPACE MARINES.

    • dinodoc

      Why?

      • rrooster1977

        Why not?

        • dinodoc

          That’s the reason Coke created New Coke. Look how that turned out.

          • af

            Isn’t New Coke the Primaris marines, rather than female space marines?

      • rrooster1977

        Why not? I think it would be cool to see some badass super soldier warrior women done in a fashion that elevates them above material for some lonely nerds spank bank. You can’t really accentuate female features in standard space marine armour. Make some legion/chapter upgrade sprues that include female heads, and other chapter/legion specific bits and everyone wins. Well everyone except the people wining about “muh spesh mahreen fluff says no girls aloud” (even though fluff gets retconned all the time).

        • Porty1119

          Speaking from experience, armor doesn’t really accentuate female features. Body armor and load-bearing equipment have a habit of squishing things.

          • rrooster1977

            That’s kinda my point. Unlike the current female sculpt (sisters of silence, sisters of battle) power armour has a set aesthetic that doesn’t include boobplate, hourglass waist, and hooker boots. Don’t get me wrong the sexy sci-fi look is great and everything but a few badass Sarah Conner type female space marines is a pretty cool idea IMHO. To each their own though, if someone wanted to keep their space marine armies strictly male they can but at least have options for those who don’t.

    • Erik Sjögren

      That would be AWESOME! And maybe make me want to play my 6000 points Ultras again 🙂

  • Frank Krifka

    I agree with a very large portion of this.

    And still, I still feel compelled to point out that most the figures in WH40K are sexualized to one degree or another. The male figures are as much examples of hyper-masculinity as female figures are examples of hyper-femininity. I understand that there are a number of intermediate male models that aren’t as sexualized as female models (the lowly imperial guardsmen come to mind) Yet theres also the Catchan Rambo figures with bulging biceps and pectoral muscles for days.

    I think there should be more diversity in both the model range and player base, but be the exaggeration of archetypes is kind of what 40K does as a rule.

    • Jabberwokk

      Pec plate vs combat heels.

      I really don’t care about it tbh.

      Thank God I play nids…..

      • Frank Krifka

        I’d say more cod-pieces vs combat heels. But I don’t care too terribly much either.

        • Jabberwokk

          I’m a Gym rat and believe me I wish I could live up to their aesthetic.

          • CloakingDonkey

            You’re not supposed to though. You’re also not necessarily supposed to look like a greek god statue. It’s an idealistic design… There’s no reason to take it serious.

          • Jabberwokk

            Yeah but I aspire to be. It’s something to shoot for. And trust me even the little progress I’ve people notice. It’s not my reason but it is a nice sign I’m making progress.

    • Lux

      As a gay dude I honestly can’t think of many male 40k models I’d call ‘sexualized’ or even ‘attractive.’ Sigvald from Fantasy, sure, but in that case it’s intentional.

      I’m sure there’s a lot I’m forgetting though.

      • Frank Krifka

        Well, I don’t feel the sisters of battle range is particularly sexy. I do see them as being hyper-feminized. Calling something “sexualized” seems to be synonymous with hyperbolic representations of gender. As to “attractive” that’s really a subjective thing.

        You’d have to agree that something like space wolves aren’t really ambiguous in their gender. And that clear delineation of “these are male figures” is communicated through stereotypical male attributes; big muscles, facial hair, hip-shoulder ratios. And I say they are hyperbolized because I don’t know of many men who fit the body-type of a space marine.

        And yes. All the dark elder models (male and female) have added facet of of S&M subculture. but while not as traditionally masculine as space marine models, all the dudes have six-packs and biceps.

      • Erik Sjögren

        What? You don’t find Ultramarines attractive? Heck, I’m hetero and I would marry Papa Smurf!

      • Drpx

        Fulgrim. He’s fabulous.

  • Bestee

    I am unsure on this article, Not to discredit the author but I
    believe this is more decisive and polarizing for something which is already fairly easily quashed. This sort of attitude that is currently popular in various introverted communities only causes more division.

    Granting the people we deem to name heretics and the monstrous ammunition. The sad and very real issue with this sort of thing is the “bad actors” will come from both sides. But its easy to feel tribal and not lend an ear to the other side as it will likely only take one or two horrific stories to get a person on one side or the other. There will be a lot of these bad actors stirring the pot just to see the chaos in their wake.

    So I ask of all, Keep your sabres in their scabbards. We are a
    community of vastly different demographics and its unavoidable that there is larger communities than others and that is fine (We have a large male demographic for example). We are most importantly all individuals playing this game for kicks and meeting new people.

    Point out and expose poor behavior when you see it in person help people learn but always be open to listen to critics.

    Most importantly do not enforce your values on others only tyranny lies in that shadow and make sure you do not become what you claim to fight against making you the thing you would never wish to be.

    I repeat, In short all gamers are welcome so do not enforce roles and virtues on an entire community in order to punish the rare few who act in toxic and manipulative ways (On both sides). It only damages those who are not involved.

    Seek Truth Brothers and Sisters not outrage.

    • Erik Sjögren

      You clearly missed BOLS last post in the matter that was met with a never ending stream of know how’s who said they knew all about female players not wishing for this to happen, because all these males know that women love to play with the few, existing female models. And to that, add

      Now female players wish for it to happen in this post and also acknowledge that they are being harassed and bullied purely because their gender.

      So if you want to be the nice guy, be chevaleresque and stand up for the women.

      • Bestee

        I was there to see the ride but I often choose not to comment. Seeing that this story has been regurgitated once more I felt the need to make the point of “bad actors” on both sides.

        The choice of me being a nice guy is irrelevent people will paint me how they wish to see me. This is fine.

        However I urge you to reconsider your last sentence for it reeks of sexism: “So if you want to be the nice guy, be chevaleresque and stand up for the women.” Women do not need this form of mentality plastered on to them. If a person who happens to be female asks for help then I will do what is possible to help as I would for any other person.

        Also your confusing “Women” and “Feminists” Many would hate to be branded as a “Feminist” in today current standards of Feminism. But they would certainly fight for equal rights all the same. Its a bold difference.

  • J Mad

    1) Its a hobby, you can buy female heads and place them on any model
    2) This is a hobby, you can paint them white, black, male, female, w/e you want
    3) Who said SOB was made for women? And why do women need girl models? 1/2 the Eldar/DE/Harlequins models are female… why dont you talk about that?
    4) All the women i know seem to like Tau, Necrons, Eldar and Daemons. I’ve seen none say they like SoB to be less… sexual looking, heck my wife likes them more sexual she thinks its funny…

    Why dont you go to the large events and actually ask those few women that play to take a survey rather than say “this is what i think”, everything that i’ve seen in gaming (not on the internet) is they dont feel “in place” in the stores, they are very welcomed, its more of a boys club tho, the nature of discussions, talking, arguing etc….

    • Lux

      In all seriousness inclusion is going to have to be a lot more reliant on expanding the hobby’s appeal in other ways (painting competitions, community outreach on social media, less reliance on FAQ’d rules, etc.) than more female characters in the fluff.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Now a representative from a community of female players just spoke out about what they want.
      GW would not do a wider range without a proper market survey.
      I think the fact they are not feeling welcome is because stubborn people like yourself choose not to listen.

      • J Mad

        I play with women…. do you? Idk about the lore none i know actually care about the lore. I just know what they are telling me.

        They can add all the women they want, i literally dont care, i’m just saying we are making it into a stupid ordeal when there are ways right now to make female models without redoing kits.

        The lore, sure add more if there isnt many.

        • Erik Sjögren

          No I don’t play with women. I treat them with respect.

          • J Mad

            Wow really… you call me out for thinking i’m a sexist pig and your the one making jokes about it. K, not talking to you again.

  • Jabberwokk

    And another purposeless miserable human find his hill to die on.

    If you guys thought WAAC vs Fluff was dead well boys and girls strap yourself in.

    Oh and good job Bols this is going to generate a tonne of clicks. As a Man once said “Controversy creates cash”.

    • dinodoc

      I don’t understand the controversy if it helps to increase the player base. It’s clear from some of the comments here that a few 40K players need practice interacting with women.

      • Wulfen73

        It’s not going to increase the playerbase, the idea that it would is completely unfounded

        • dinodoc

          Let’s make plastic Sisters and see what happens. If it increases sales, great. If not, we still get something that should have happened a decade ago.

          • Wulfen73

            Sure, I’m not against plastic sisters, or female guardsmen or whatever, I just don’t think it will magically draw a bunch of previously uninterested people to the hobby

          • Valeli

            Seconded. New sisters are really really needed. Some female guardsmen would be cool too.

            Neither of those should be receiving any more arguments or fanfare than would come with the update of any other long-neglected list or new models.

            People should really just let this be. Opposing change doesn’t mean you support all the horrific behaviors this article insinuates you do, and having a few new models won’t ruin anyone’s day on the other end either.

          • Muninwing

            i know a dozen people who either stopped or never started playing because of the women (and lack thereof) in the game… and as many times as this comes up, a ton of people echo that same sentiment.

            but sure, continue to assume that it’s outsider voices and won’t make a difference. those ostriches need some company down there.

        • Apocryphus

          Basically this. If they aren’t interested in the first place, pandering to them won’t bring them in either.

        • Erik Sjögren

          Well of course you are right. And GW is doing this because… well.. hrmm.. it must be a feminist conspiracy.
          No way they would make this decision if it didn’t increase the audience and profit.

          • Wulfen73

            Yes, GW has always listened to the playerbase *snerk*. Also, if you would kindly keep your words out of my mouth I’d appreciate it, I don’t appreciate your paranoia in there

      • Lux

        I don’t think a bunch of Orks putting NO GIRLS ALLOWED on their pillow fort and a bunch of beardos bragging about how sensitive they are to ‘females’ screaming at each other is going to attract anyone tbh

        • Valeli

          Second this too. There are certain people playing this game (you know who they are, they probably don’t…) that are the real root cause of the issue here if you ask me.

          Way more perfectly normal awesome people. But enough of the others….

      • Jabberwokk

        By alienating the player base? sounds like you’d be fine with the omelet if you had to break a few eggs.

        Why does interacting with woman have to do with my interaction with a game?

        besides my interactions are usually teeth first regardless of species.

        • dinodoc

          I’m actually curious. How do Plastic Sisters and Mixed IG alienate the player base?

          • Muninwing

            neckbeards are scared of girls….

          • Jabberwokk

            Sure. I will answer your question if you will answer mine.

            Is it alienating to call a portion of a group toxic, apart of a dark underbelly, Isolationist, tribal, and comparable to a child screaming?

      • Erik Sjögren

        Word.

      • Muninwing

        the people who think this is a controversy are the ones that this article are calling out… and the ones who are so fragile that they are proving the article right by getting so butthurt in the comments.

    • Drpx

      I’d rather have WAAC vs Fluff than this.

      • Jabberwokk

        Look at the wording:

        “protect “their” fandom at all costs

        We’ve been at this for a while.

  • Apocryphus

    Well, I must admit that I glazed over the article, but I’ve heard this all a million tumes before. I’m all for representation in the game and have no issues with the portayal of female warriors presented in a non “sexualized” manner, but the idea of changing the lore to allow for greater representation is just forced. This is the 41st millenium, humans are nothing more than insignificant objects. The only true equality is that everyone’s life is meaningless. The Imperium is a fascist regime that discriminates against its own kind, the idea of equality to make others feel included is not something on their mind. I know, I know, but that means even women should be marines! They can’t be. It has nothing to do with gender, lore wise anyway, it’s genetics. It’s not like they didn’t try, it just didn’t work. The other thing is, marines are genetic post humans. Their bodies undergo intense transformation after receiving the gene seed. Marines lose all aspect of their original humanity and could barely be called male to begin with, women who could become marines would likely undergo the same process and you couldn’t then even call them female. I getvthat women gamers want something to be able to relate to, and I don’t want to sound like I want them to be excluded from the hobby, but to change the established fiction of a setting strictly because a group of people, any people, want it to appeal directly to them is just pandering. If a woman gamer wants to relate to a faction in 40k, but finds Space Marines unrelatable because of gender, that’s her perogative. No one said that a hero or villian has to be the same gender as you to be able to relate to them, that’s a twisted social construct that’s warping the way people create characters.

    As I said, I’m all for representation in 40k, so long as it feels appropriate within the setting. Give me female guard models like they show in the art, just wearing normal standard issue flak armor and posed like a standard soldier. Give me female Commisars that aren’t posed like a Betty Page poster. But if we get female Space Marines, I demand we also get male Sororitas. And I’m not talking about the priests, men who are actual Sororitas. If we are going to go for total gender inclusion, it absolutely must be 100% of the way, no exceptions, because otherwise its not about equality, its about getting your way.

  • Chris

    I like my Sororitas design and fluff as it is all the same though, thanks.

  • Lee Ashford

    May I point out that GW also makes stupidly ott male nipple armour and has a lot of dudes running about nearly naked too…

    • AEZ

      You may

    • Drpx

      But that’s not objectification. A half-naked woman is male appeal. Female appeal would be making the male models into broody vampires with giant mansions on private islands and helicopters.

  • AEZ

    I’m all for more female models and completely against (only) oversexualized female models. Having said that female space marines are a bridge too far for me, it’s just not the lore (nothing against female militarum, aeldari etcetc or even female syormcasts)

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Sadly, we live in a world where sexism (across genders) and racism (of all creeds and colours) at prevalent. Certainly it would be wrong to deny that sexism and racism does not affect certain demographics more than other, because it does; you’ve just need to read recent headlines about Harvey Weinstein or the terrible scenes in Charlottesville USA. Its not right, and given how progressive humans claim to be to compared to our ancestors, you’d think as it would be stamped out by now – but humans are cruel and selfish creatures; often we’re our own worst enemy.

    Like all areas of life it is generally a minority of horrid backward bigoted human beings that continue to consider this attitude to be ok. I would be sure if you ask, reasonable and rational, hobbyist they would overwhelmingly be completely equal in how they interact with other hobbyist gender, race or creed be dammed. Indeed I’m sure GW will feel the same way and completely condemned any hobbyist that behave that way; equally if any staff in GW where found to have these view I’m sure they would be quickly shown the door. Maybe its UK thing or I’ve been lucky in the stores I’ve visited; but I have never been in any GW that permit this vile behaviour. Anyone who does is swiftly rebuked and if are serial offenders banned. It’s sad to for me to say, this has not my experience of many (not all) independent stores.

    As for GW and models vs background. Wells that up to GW to sort. If you read some of the FB responses from the community team or read GW results reports, they you will know the lack of diversity in models is something they are acutely aware of across their ranges and are make strident efforts to change this balance. It will take time, and change won’t happen overnight, but you’ve just got to look at many recent release to see things are changing in how GW paint their models and the gender of models released.

    A small side note on SM and gender. I honestly don’t know where I stand on this. It’s perhaps the trickiest area for GW. SM are their flagship model and make far more money for GW than anything else they do. I will say this if GW did decide to have female SM does that mean we then need a female Primarch? female Orks? female demons (beyond Slaanesh)? Diversity balance can be solved but does it have to touch every army and race? (Rhetorical, not expecting an answer, but I sure I get on)

    Finally, a point on feminism. There is nothing wrong with feminism (or any other kind of -ism whose goal is to stand up for different undermined areas of society). But like any movements there are good and bad ways at getting your opinion and voice heard; and levels of being reasonable and unreasonable. The statement above certainly skirts the line when it comes to this. Something they should be careful not to cross.

  • Wulfen73

    Hurray, another group of people citing theories long discredited to push a political agenda.

    Go ahead and tell me I’m wrong, it’s fine. I look at Warmahordes, or infinity, I see no difference in the playerbases for them despite quite a bit more diversity of both gender and race.

    Perhaps it is just time to accept that we play in a niche market and telling everyone how terrible we are isn’t about to change that.

    • dinodoc

      But we can still have plastic Sisters and mixed regiment IG, right?

      • Wulfen73

        Sure, mixed anything is fine, a lot of armies already have a mix, but don’t cling to the delusion that suddenly we are going to have a flood of “Diverse” people into the market, the idea itself is rather bigoted in my opinion, what someone needs something to look just like them to have an interest in it? Seems rather shallow to me

  • CloakingDonkey

    oh is it time to infest yet another fandom with post-modernist marxist bollocks and play some good ol’ divide and conquer? I can’t wait. I’ve been waiting for another meme war.

    • dinodoc

      No Girls Allowed, am I right? You’d think asking for plastic Sisters and mixed IG were the end of the world

      • CloakingDonkey

        I don’t care who plays these games. At all. My own gaming group is as diverse as it’s ever going to get. Some women will like it, some will not. Plastic sisters and girl grunts won’t change that because the game is about war, sci-fi, murdering things and competition… not exactly the grandest of feminine interests. But I’m sure it’s about oppression or whatever. tip harder, my boy. 10€ says you’re a white boy. Why not leave the hobby and increase diversity that way? 😉

        • dinodoc

          Where’s the memes you promised? You forgot to quote Pepe

          • CloakingDonkey

            You can’t quote pepe, you make pepes… bloody hell, how much of a normie are you? 😛

        • Erik Sjögren

          No it’s not. It’s about not being a douche against women. Or anyone else for that matter.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      A meme war…NOOOOOO….not again! It will be Viet-meme all over again….you don’t know…..YOU WEREN’T THERE MAN!.

      • CloakingDonkey

        hey you can’t blame a sh*tlord for wanting some fun, can you? 😉

    • Erik Sjögren

      Post-modernist Marxist?
      Oookay…
      Maybe try again. Like, for instance, humanism. Liberalism. Freedom.

      • Wulfen73

        Yup, humanism is bringing plastic girls to a plastic soldiers game, because tackling world hunger or the explosive rise in poverty would require actually doing something 😛

        • Erik Sjögren

          Nope. But men keeping their hands to themselves and treating women like equals would be.

          • Wulfen73

            I agree, but how does this in any way affect that?

          • Erik Sjögren

            Nice to agree on something 😉
            I’m not sure what you mean by this and that. I’ll take a guess.
            If you mean not harassing women, because that is what the TS wrote. And a sound reaction could be to denounce that behaviour in any form. Instead, not a single one of the men in this thread that oppose female figures or this new direction fail to do that. Denounce harassment as of women in the hobby, that is.
            I find it deeply disturbing that it goes by without so much of a mention.

      • CloakingDonkey

        There is nothing humanist about dividing everything into categories of race and sex. There is nothing liberal about regulating how people have to behave. There is no freedom in demanding everyone does what you want.

        You are an authoritarian lap dog and you don’t even realise it. It’s beyond sad.

        • Muninwing

          yes, the “no YOU’RE the bad guy!” argument… so effective.

      • Muninwing

        maybe marx applies… marxism as a literary lens is all about economy and how it affects everything.

        but postmodernism is completely different.

        i’m betting this word salad just means he’s trying to sound like he knows what he’s talking about…

      • Porty1119

        Humanism and liberalism are abject failures that have succeeded only in destroying the very civilization that spawned them. Liberal democracy has failed.

        • Erik Sjögren

          I see. You are more of an Emperors Children kind of Guy. Watch out for the influences of Chaos there…

      • Drpx

        You left out egalitarianism.

  • Female miniatures will solve sexism how exactly?
    Ethnic miniatures will solve racism how exactly?

    How would I feel represented by a gigantic genhanced machine of murder anyways, male of female? Or a Tau? Or a Tyranid?

    Pointless debate that will solve nothing.

    • CloakingDonkey

      it’s not about solving anything. It’s about control and power, as it always has been. They want to be the ones calling the shots in this fandom, have companies bow to their will.

  • Dmitrij Pozdniakov

    Nurgle must be abolished because it’s Fat-shaming.
    Slaanesh must be abolished because it’s too sexy and/or misrepresents sexual minorities.
    Where does it stop, you may ask?
    The answer is – it doesn’t. Not until our beloved hobby is hollowed and ruined.
    We must stand firm.
    (Plastic sisters, female ig options are ok though)

    • CloakingDonkey

      This. Don’t give them an inch. They are never satisfied and will always ask for more. Look at fiction, comic books and video games. It’s NEVER diverse enough. That’s the point.

      • Man! You guys are lunatics.

        • CloakingDonkey

          Thanks. Your input is very valuable to me.

      • Erik Sjögren

        I sense a bit of bitterness? Just because you’re having a hard time navigating with women doesn’t mean you have to hate them. Your kind will still be allowed in the hobby. But sadly it won’t do jack **** for your ranking. You’ll still loose 🙂

        • CloakingDonkey

          dude you know nothing about me. I could be a woman for all you know. How embarrassing would that be for you, you male feminist creep? 😛

          • Erik Sjögren

            Yes I do.
            No you’re not.

          • Drpx

            He’s trying to impress Suzy from Women’s Studies but she’s already with Chad from the football team.

    • frank

      I don’t mind adding more diversity but i think its funny that people are so harsh on slaanesh. I always liked the way that slaanesh bent gender norms as a teen. I thought how cool is that the god-goddess of pleasure exists. shes all about sex drugs and rock and roll. like she is in your face it seemed like slaanesh would scare the crap out of the 1940s-50s stereotype that was the imperium, and rightly so. granted their an evil faction but the good factions are largely a bunch of xenophobic, genocidal, conformists. so which is worse being truly free to do what you want or part of the empire?

    • You said it brother

  • Sun spear

    I don’t even know what is being said in this article. It sounds like someone who has nothing else to be upset by, victimized by, or offended by has found something to whine about. I have played this game since 2nd edition. I have seen a few females in game stores playing but not many and never, not once, have I saw a woman be treated differently. I know a ton of males who play the game and their wives, girlfriends, whatever, have no interest in it whatsoever. This isn’t a hobby that a many females are interested in. Sorta like most males don’t have their nails done or like romcoms.
    Who cares?
    In the fluff there are no female space marines, the imperium is also a hard, xenophobic, backwards place to be where human lives are cheap and no one cares about you.
    It’s a hobby with a background, if you want to play it, do so. If it offends you don’t play it.
    I read someone’s post about snowflakes not wanting their fluff changed. Hahaha, too funny, it’s just people who like the game wanting to play the game for what it is.
    Don’t misuse the term snowflake, it’s the snowflakes that are whining about how they are offended or victimized by a bunch of plastic toy soldiers.
    I’m happily building my astra militarum army and can’t wait to take down xeno scum or a heretic with a funny looking mole

    • “Sorta like most males don’t have their nails done or like romcoms”
      Good job sir, I envy understanding of the female mind.
      Who cares? Apparently people that, unlike you, are NOT represented.
      But hey keep happily building your astra militarum, at least you won’t get cooties next time you play.

      • Sun spear

        Haha, I don’t pretend to even begin to understand females, just going by what I see. My wife owns a nail salon, I see women there, all women all the the time. With only the rare male. All women I know like romcoms. Just going by what I see. I’m not whining about the exclusion of men at nail salons or romcoms, or that we aren’t represented.
        This subject is a joke, lol

    • Erik Sjögren

      Clearly you missed out on the #meetoo. Some men are just outright a-holes against women. But then again, that would not account for you then, now would it.

      • Sun spear

        I don’t know what you are referring to?

        • Erik Sjögren

          I rest my case.

          • Sun spear

            What case?
            A campaign hashtag? a campaign that is somehow relevant to plastic toy soldiers and a few people crying because they don’t have enough female models?

          • Erik Sjögren

            No, a few males crying because their precious toy soldiers are threatened by modern society.

          • Wulfen73

            No it was some rich guy getting accused of sexual assualt

        • Wulfen73

          A twitter Hashtag campaign, because the world revolves around social media

          • Sun spear

            Ok, thanks wulfen.
            I should have known, a twitter campaign because twitter needs to maintain its relevance somehow.

          • Erik Sjögren

            You are a disgrace to us males.

          • Wulfen73

            Yeah okay

          • Drpx

            It’d be dead by now if T rump wasn’t on it.

          • Erik Sjögren

            Oh, sarcasm about social media, written in social media. What an oxymoron. With emphasis on the last syllable.

          • Wulfen73

            See! See! Look how important it is social media solves everything! I mean, you can name a hashtag campaign that affected real lasting change right?

        • Drpx

          The latest cry-fest on Twitter. Every woman in the world is a victim of constant harassment.

  • Oggthrok

    I don’t know if it’s virtue signaling or a dog whistle, but wouldn’t it be great to have some Asian space marines, or some who look like Michael Clark Duncan? How about female cadians, or even Blood Warriors for AOS?

    I feel guilty that it’s less about the crusade for proper representation for me, but more just wanting new and more varied designs, so my Khorne and my Marines and My guard aren’t all “bald Caucasian screaming.”

    I already feel lucky that we have as much variety as we do, but just imagine a whole range of humanity in your miniatures… (does not apply to Infinity though, I think they already got it…)

    • CloakingDonkey

      your models are only caucasian because you choose to paint them that way.

      • So you can paint caucasian looking models to be asian? How exactly?
        Please tell you don’t paint them yellow.

        • CloakingDonkey

          “caucasian looking” Please tell me you’re not asking for slanted eyes and buck teeth on your models, you horrendous bigot. 😉

        • Drpx

          I paint their hair anime color.

      • Erik Sjögren

        Your vomit is only coming because you choose not to use your brain.

        • CloakingDonkey

          dude… please. You clearly have no capacity for snark. Go back to tipping your fedora. 😛

    • Drpx

      White Stars are Asian. Salamanders were black until GW decided to make them black. I guess the facial models could be changed.

  • Evil Otto
  • SilentPony

    It’d be so simply to add a few female heads/torsos/arms to a plastic Guard upgrade sprue, like the Eldar Guardians have.
    Plastic Sisters is LONG over due, but GW will never do that. Its too much work, and actually making them is kinda’ admitting its a good idea and they should have done it long ago. But they can’t admit that.

    • Jake Waters

      It would cost upwards of 50,000 pounds to create a single new sprue to add female guard.

      two different guard kits mean 100,000 pounds, and then you have to include the heavy weapon sprues, £200,000

      every old guard kit they sell is pure profit after transport and licensing fee’s are taken out of the equation, adding a new sprue to the aging kit would heap on £200,000 of debt they have to make up out of the profits before they can start making real money off it again.

      its better for them if they wait until they can completely overhaul the kits with new items and details before they bother to change them. it’ll happen eventually when the mold starts to wear out, but you may be waiting a few years.

      problems worst with the sisters of battle. the vehicles aren’t a problem, they’re built off of the rhino frame so a small alteration is no issue, but that many plastic mold kits for a full re-release hasn’t been seen since Deldar got updated in 5th.

      still, speaking as a Deldar vet, when those new plastics do come out I swear you’ll weep at their beauty.

  • TacoTruck

    Looking at the members of this Feminist 40k group page, I find it a bit ironic it seems to be almost exclusively men. A bunch of virtue signaling men, informing the rest of us, including women in the hobby, of want women want.

    Perhaps belloflostsouls could seek out some actual women to interview on the subject.

    • Drpx

      It always is.

  • Moonman45

    Someone get arch! these gd heretics are going to ruin 40k. like they ruined starwars.

  • onlyonepinman

    “Minorities gain better representation, more options for writing and models are sold, the company makes more money and thus has more options for its player base”

    Because that’s totally what happened when Marvel Comics shoe-horned diversity into their comics. Everyone definitely won and Marvel definitely sold more comics. Oh, wait. The other thing.

    • dinodoc

      Yeah. It’s totally the fault of women/minorities and not the inability of people at Marvel to write a decent story. Why Nick Spencer is still employed after Hydra Cap, I’ll never know.

      • Jake Waters

        heheheheheheh

      • onlyonepinman

        I haven’t pointed the finger of blame, only pointed out that forcing diversity onto an audience that doesn’t want it doesn’t end well. Enforcing diversity on Marvel Comics didn’t expand their audience, it contracted it. I think that’s a very good warning for anyone looking to increase diversity in an existing IP.

        • Yes. They indeed should NEVER do that, because it´s obviously a recipe for failure, let’s leave warhammer as it is and never talk about this again.

          • onlyonepinman

            Again that’s not what I said. I simply pointed out that by introducing diversity everyone does not necessarily win and based on previous examples nobody wins. That’s not to say it can’t be done but it’s risky and has to be handled correctly.

          • Then you’re saying that they should do it right, unlike marvel, that has done it quite wrong.
            You’re basically agreeing with dinodoc.

          • onlyonepinman

            I wasn’t aware that I had indicated that I disagreed. I simply said I wasn’t pointing the finger of blame at anyone as to why Marvel failed, only that they did

          • Drpx

            I gave you an upvote in case you weren’t being sarcastic.

        • Muninwing

          stop with the Marvel example. since it’s patently false.

          • onlyonepinman

            When the CEO of Marvel has been on record saying that their little exercise in diversity may have alienated fans I think it’s fair to say the Marvel example is anything but false

            https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/03/marvel-executive-says-emphasis-on-diversity-may-have-alienated-readers

          • Muninwing

            when the VP of marvel said a lot more than that, but people took it out of context… then some people don’t do their research and repost the same biased crap… it’s safe to say that the issue is in fact utter crap if you bother to do your research.

          • onlyonepinman

            I’ve read the articles, I’ve read the interview and I know what he said. My point really is that diversity isn’t a magical key to increasing your sales. Not everyone wins and there’s a significant risk that actually everyone loses. I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all that sales of Marvel Comics have dropped given the direction Marvel have taken. And if GW take a similar approach, retconning existing lore to shoehorn diversity into their games they will drive existing players away in Greater numbers than they will attract new ones. I’m not actually saying (and haven’t said if you read all my comments) that GW should not make a more diverse model range. I will state for the record I really don’t care if they do or they don’t – I genuinely couldn’t care less. However it’s very disingenuous to state that “Everyone Wins” as if it’s a foregone conclusion – it’s anything but. It’s an absolute minefield trying to get it right and one thing you absolutely don’t do is gamble away your existing market in the hopes that you will attract new players. You have to respect your existing fans because they’re guaranteed sales.

          • Shred

            I think comic store owners know better than you, and it was them who have called Marvel out for their crap at NYCC!

  • Razerfree

    My advice for people who don’t like a game: play something else. And change your diapers while you’re at it.

  • Valeli

    I’m not comfortable with this. Very real, and serious, issues do exist -as the article points out. Then the article seemingly tries to imply that I have engaged in such behavior simply because I’m not on the change train.

    This isn’t the first change I don’t fully support, and won’t be the last. I didn’t like bringing primaries into the game either, among a ton of other things – none of which have anything to do with feminism. At all.

    The actual toxic community issues raised are real, to one extent or another. And need to be addressed by everyone. No doubt.

    Supporting change in the mini line isn’t the only way to do this though. I feel pretty strongly that it’s not even close to the best way as well.

    Toxic people need to be dealt with personally, and ostracized. Shaming, discrimination, threats of rape, actual rape, etc are completely unacceptable.

    But they’re also not at all the same as opposing change to a miniature line or the fluff behind it.

    I really wish this could just be a non-issue though. Too much is being made of it on both sides imo. It’s not rape, but no one will die if/when the fluff gets ret-conned either.

  • Puppet Soul

    The Sissies have always been my jam, and I really hate how the SJWs that have infested GW are trying to destroy them.

    I have no doubt that your kind are the reason they haven’t given us a plastic line, despite the support for the army being so widespread that it is financing an entire cottage industry of Counts As proxies.

    Why? For the same reason that Repentia’s are unplayably bad, while their loincloth-wearing male equivalent the Arco-Flagellants, one page previous in the same Index, are awesome: they want you to suffer if you want something they don’t want you to be allowed to have.

  • Richard Mitchell

    This is a red herring, the whole page is. Most females at our store play Malifaux or Warmachine. Why? Representation. They are not really turned on by 40k. So if you don’t like the product vote with your dollars AND GW WILL NOTICE.

    I mean heck GW has released a whole new edition and string of FAQs in less then half a year based on that premise.

    And as far as exagerrated sexual features. One, its 28mm, you kind of have to if you are going to see the representation and two, men are hypersexualized too. I dont see the majority of minis looking like myself (40 year old dad with a body to prove it).

    Also this is not #allwomen, I have meet women who love painting sexy girl miniatures because they are attractive to look at. I just finished the Old Witch of Khador and I consider it my best work. My wife hates it cause the model is ugly, she doesnt hate my work but she does not find the character physically attractive.

    Just GW, please by God, release more female kits for every faction and paint some models a different ethnicity when you do your photo shots. I am tired of #tag campaigns for attention, by people who probably don’t play anyway, just so you can release the kits anyway to look like an “industry leader” and get a pat on the back for doing something that is the industry standard and has been for over 10 years!

    • Erik Sjögren

      Well, I play. Like a m**********r. And I agree with the message in the post.
      Just wanted to let you know 😉

  • Imperialist

    So, a few things to point out…
    One: Warhammer 40k is not a progressive idea for a future. The idea of “the game reflecting 2017 culture” is anathema to 40k, as 40k depicts a far flung future where humans are currency spent in thousands of wars, where the populace is under the yoke of an oppressive regime (albeit, a necessary one). There is no mirror reflection here that sci-fi tropes usually hook into, gender, sexuality, race…are things that dont matter in the 41st millenium. Not because humanity is in a good place, but because its being crushed on all sides by things that arent human. Humanity is (mostly) united in hate and xenophobia. Its a cornerstone of the franchise.
    Two: The author seems to undervalue 40k as a setting. Sure, it has lifted tropes, and parodied elements of other sci-fi settings…but if you cant open your eyes and see that 40k takes itself VERY seriously, you should probably go to another fandom.
    Three: Im ALL for new female models, in the Astra Militarum, new plastic sisters, more Eldar models. But not the Adeptus Astartes. Not only are there 1000 lore reasons why it doesnt happen, theres definitely biological/psychological reasons why it shouldnt. Not to mention that there would be NO REASON FOR IT. Sisters of Battle were created to give females a rough equivalent to the Astartes, with their own strengths to go with it. Its been this way for 30 years. Theres no need to change it when there are a billion other faction choices for women. Not to mention SM are basically NOT HUMAN anymore, and therefore things such as gender and sexuality dont apply to them as they would regular humans.
    Four: Culture and race representations that mirror our own are pointless, again. Every genotype walking around in 2017 would have been obliterated and mutated beyond comprehension by 38000 years of colonization of far distand worlds with different biomes, vat-grown populations, colonial interbreeding, ridiculously harsh living conditions, and roughly 10k years of isolationism and fear before the Imperium even became a thing. Cultures may have a basis in our history, but they are far removed (or a case where history has repeated itself) from our own cultures as to even categorize Salamanders as “black space marines” or the White Scars as “just space Mongolians” just serves to propagate cultural pigeonholing that just isnt necessary.

    Whew, that as long. Point in short: 40k doesnt need to reflect our current world. Its not even remotely the point. Just read the opening crawl of every codex. No matter what happens…you wont be missed.

    • Jake Waters

      also this, this individual is correct. 40k is so far passed our morality that it shouldn’t reflect it.

      • TDog

        There’s a problem with that statement: it is reflecting a morality – just one you happen to approve of. The notion that 40k is so far past our norms that it should reflect none of them is a deflection meant to justify the status quo or, more accurately, a moral state that you are comfortable with.

        It would shorten the conversation and get to the heart of the matter if one would just admit that they are distressed that the “no gurlz allowd” sign was still paid attention to.

        • Gill

          in order for a debate to happen one must listen and give a rebuttal that is relevant, your post not only disservices yourself but also your argument.

          • TDog

            The relevance of my rebuttal has been defined as irrelevant only by dint of your opinion.

        • Iconoc1ast

          How are girls excluded exactly?

          • TDog

            The same way the Tau are excluded. This may take a little explaining, so please bear with me.

            And I’m not trying to be condescending here, so my apologies in advance if I come off that way.

            The Imperium has several armies: the Astartes alone have multiple codices to say nothing of the Mechanicus, the Astra Militarum, Talons of the Emperor, Adepta Sororitas… and then throw in Chaos and humans have a bunch of armies, all represented and many of them very well fleshed out with their own backstories, unique units, unique characters, and at times unique vehicles.

            The Tau, on the other hand, are just Tau. They have a few unique characters, but Fire Warriors, for example, are just Fire Warriors. There are no Tau equivalents of Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Cadians, Armageddon Steel Legion, etc. To go even further, their allied/subject races are represented by one unit, have no characters, and are generally little more than a force organization choice rather than something that has backstory and character. We know next to nothing about the Demiurg, the Vespids, or even the Kroot, who admittedly have some fluff, but nothing approaching the sort of depth and variety that the Space Marines have.

            Now I know the Tau are a fictional race – if there are any Tau living on Earth, I am unaware of it. But even then, those players who play Tau armies have very little to go on. There’s very little about the Water Caste, the Earth Caste, or the Air Caste, next to nothing about their client states/races, and very little flavor in terms of how the Tau live their daily lives. The greatest failure in most sci-fi is to portray humans as varied and complex while portraying alien races as monolithic entities that cannot be differentiated from one another because they are not different from one another.

            So when a player gets frustrated by a lack of variety in their chosen army, imagine how frustrating it is to have a total absence not just in one’s army, but in one’s entire game universe. It’s one thing to bemoan a lack of female Marines in a WW2-era tabletop game… it’s a matter of historical record that few – if any – female Marines ever saw combat. Yes, there were female Marines just as there were women in every service branch, but it’s pretty well established that they were not thrown into combat alongside the men.

            But WH40k is fictional. It depicts events that are occurring roughly 40,000 years in the future. There is every reason to believe that somewhere along the way women would make their presence known. And in a universe as hostile and dangerous as the galaxy of the Imperium, leaving women at home or behind the scenes makes little sense. If there is only war, by logical extension there are only combatants. Non-combatant roles would be reserved for those who can’t fight – the aged, the infirm, the injured, the disabled… and even that last one is no guarantee given the prevalence of bionics.

            But nowhere in that group does it say “one cannot fight if one pees sitting down.” It would in fact be strategically irresponsible to automatically veto the participation of roughly half your population based purely upon 19th Century mores. When you’ve got an Ork Waagh! barreling down the pike towards you on the left and a Genestealer cult uprising setting fire to your planet on the right, you’re going to grab as many warm bodies as you can to fire a gun at these pests.

            If you can lift a flashlight, you can fight. And given what we know of the Imperium, in many cases it’s not that you “can” it’s that you “will.”

            On a more practical level, if it does not matter that there are no female miniatures in this game, one has to ask the question, “Well then, would you be playing if it were nothing but female miniatures?” If gender is a non-issue, then it is only fair and logical to ask if the reverse would be accepted as wholeheartedly as the status quo.

            The almost total lack of female characters and miniatures is a passive exclusion, but an exclusion nonetheless. And if this gets addressed by GW, I say more power to them. I’m not asking for a screed on girl power or a novel wherein the cowardly, devious men are shown up by Captain Feminist Gloriana, but a more equitable inclusion would be nice.

            And while I’m at it, I’m still waiting for GW to give more depth and character to the various xenos races. I’m pretty sick and tired of the one-face-for-one-race approach to universe building when it comes to aliens.

          • Iconoc1ast

            It is far easier to write for the imperium as we can use actual human history to inspire it. It is very difficult to write a rich backstory with depth that the humanity factions have that sounds kind of believable .
            women have been represtented in novels, backstory and some of the computer games very well i feel.

          • TDog

            Where the fiction is concerned, easy is not an excuse. Easy is what hacks, dilettantes, and wannabes look for.

            As for being represented in the novels, fiction, and games, they have been nowhere as well represented as male characters. And where are they on the tabletop? Where are the female miniatures?

            They’ve done a good job as of late including more female characters – The Emperor’s Legion by Chris Wraight had a great cast both male and female, but overall there is a lack of equity, especially on the tabletop and the codices. There isn’t a single named female character in the Astra Militarum codex, the only named character in the Adeptus Mechnicus codex is male, and in the entirety of the 8th Edition Indices, there are six named female characters: Yvraine, Saint Celestine, Jain Zar, Lelith Hesperax, Inquisitor Greyfax, and Commander Shadowsun.

            The Ultramarines alone have seven named characters.

            Now I’m not advocating a fifty-fifty split. THAT would be artificial and lame. But to lament a greater inclusion of women in the fiction and game is mystifying to me. What is it about women that arouses such a visceral response that befuddlement, resentment, and/or anger are the responses elicited by so many? I’m not saying you are being that way, because you’re not, but for a great many folks this issue has become a real sore spot and I’m at a loss to explain it.

        • Jonathan Allbritten

          Wait, wait, are you arguing that all artistic representation must agree with a specific moral normative? Cause that’d be oppression.

          Why not skip all the words and say “I want everyone to agree with me”

          • TDog

            Not at all. I’m saying that using morality as the crux of one’s argument is flawed because morality is subjective. One may say “it is moral to keep things the way they are” while others argue the opposite.

            In short, I try to leave morality out of things because more often than not it is used as an excuse to try to end the discussion rather than open one up.

          • Jonathan Allbritten

            But artistic work, especially writing, always has a moral component guiding it, being part of it, ect… It’s there. Especially in settings like 40K where the moral and ethical quandaries of merely surviving are compelling reasons for fans to be so invested in it.

            You can ignore it, but to fight to alter it is to basically and fundamentally change the genre. There are books that write themselves with the feminist framework to help convey a particular story; I would never tell the author to then change it so it’d reach out to more and be more inclusive in the sequel.

            Morality in the sense of right or wrong should never be an argument, but the argument isn’t whether it’s right or wrong, but whether it needs to be changed. The act of change is an action in and of itself that does deserve to be highlighted and critically looked at.

          • TDog

            I must respectfully disagree with you. While the morality of 40k is indeed vastly different to our own, that does not mean women can not and should not be a part of that dystopian setting. That is a logical fallacy.

            If anything, the Imperium’s economy is on a total war footing and has been for the past ten thousand years and the notion that fully one half your population will be excluded from the effort for any reason defies even its own internal logic. The Imperium has lots of manpower, but it can – and always does – use more.

            As such, the exclusion of women for the most part from both the tabletop and the fiction is less of a foundation of their fictional universe than it is a glaringly illogical omission on the part of the game designers and writers, an omission that was based purely upon – ironically enough – the morals and mores of our day than the norms of the 41st millennium.

          • Jonathan Allbritten

            But they are included: The Imperial Guardsmen and Sisters of Battle are two prominent examples of women being included in both the lore and game.

            The only part of either the fictional writing or the tabletop game exclusive to men are the Space Marines.

          • TDog

            Let’s take a look at that:

            1. Imperial Guard: I can find few, if any, female guard miniatures and none of the named characters in the codex are women.

            2. Adepta Sororitas: you are aware that they are a bit of an ongoing joke since the only ones you can realistically get are Saint Celestine and her minions? Even GW jokes about a lack of plastic sisters.

            In terms of the fiction, I agree that there have been quite a few good characters in the books and they were superbly written. But inclusion in the fiction while being excluded in the codices and miniatures is a sop and little else.

            And once again – not that you are accusing me of this – I’m not asking for or demanding a manifesto on girl power. I hate that $#!t. But greater inclusion and variety would be nice. I mentioned this earlier in another response, but The Emperor’s Legion by Chris Wraight was a great read with great characters, some of which happened to be female. He didn’t go out of his way to have his characters say, “I am woman, hear me roar!” He just told a good story with a bunch of good and varied characters. And that’s really all I want both in the fiction and the tabletop.

          • Jonathan Allbritten

            The lack of named codex characters was a bit of my point and something I freely give.

            I would however point out that lots of IG figurines have helmets. While they could have more obviously female ones. It’s not as if there’s anything stopping you from calling one fully armored one a female. I’ve seen it done before.

            I have heard some side mentions about how few Sororitas there are available, so that’s a point you have that should be fixed.

            But those are both things most people would agree on cause options are nice and makes it annoying to read about characters you can’t use in game. No need to make it about identity politics.

            I think the important point here, on my end at least, is that variety exists in the 40K setting. There’s no need for things like this article above. What should/can be done, and something everyone can agree with, is that the SOB get expanded on and better options of figures made. More variety in the codex characters to reflect characters we already see in the books.

            That’s simply expanding on something already there. Maybe there might be grumbles of people wanting more Space Marines or more Orkz or ‘Nids, but that has little/nothing to do with not wanting inclusion which is what recent feminist articles covering the topic would have you believe.

            EDIT:

            There’s a difference in expanding on a setting and outright re-envisioning a setting.

    • HydraGC

      Indeed it’s gotten to a point where morality is really an second thought to survival of the species

      • Regal Giant

        Amazing post and damn spot on.

        • Cody Raugh Ferguson

          I love this post and it’ll show if this is taken down. Because this shows why their claims are B.S.. let’s also not forget that if GW capitulated the writing will go downhill as it’s priorities won’t match the setting AND GW will end up killing the biggest female representation in the game reducing women into a role of being the “other” rather than having a Strong independent presence of their own.

          But I suspect Feminist 40k doesn’t like the SOB in all the points of the Concept of the Sisters of Battle even in the Sisters of Battle Omnibus, because the SoB are the anthesis of the Star Trek Pogressive paradise more so than any other faction as instead of “evolving past religion they revel in it, instead of being independent and showing respect to now authority but their own code, and then promptly throwing that code aside as needed, they hold everyone to that code and praise the man they built that code for, instead of seeking peaceful solutions they act with the knowledge that their presence means that peaceful solutions are now unlikely and they exist as a threat of and execution of force.

          • euansmith

            “… let’s also not forget that if GW capitulated the writing will go downhill…”

            coughcoughMAAATTWAARRDcoughcough

          • SWISSchris

            It is no coincidence he was taken back on as freelance a couple of years ago… so I heard.

          • af

            This is what gets me. In many of these posts I see an appeal to keeping the quality of the fluff or preventing inconsistencies or claiming that retconning will ruin everything we hold dear forever. But seriously… we’re talking about 40K here. It’s not exactly the most internally consistent fantasy/sci-fi, it’s been retconned and changed lots of times, and while there’s some decent fiction written about it, a lot of it is — to put it mildly — “less than good”. It’s also a setting about giant robots, aliens, demons and the warp, yet there are people arguing that women in the space marines wouldn’t be “realistic”.

            Some more women in space fantasy, uh? That sure will destroy the universe.

          • euansmith

            Personally I would be up for them going full on satirical. There is plenty of crazy stuff in the world that could be successfully lampooned against the Ultra-Xenophobic background of the Grim Darkness.

            They won’t, of course, as they have merch’ to sell (thank Mamon they do sell it and sell it well), so, instead, we are left with a grim, dark, xenophobic setting stripped of its original snide humour; a victim of its own success.

            I think that, if it isn’t going to be satirical, it might need to tone down the relentless hatred. Maybe that is where they are going with the Eldar working alongside the Imperium, and, maybe, the Tau.

          • Nem

            It does have some very large consistencies throughout that make the universe what it is.

            This is all ignoring the fact that the universe is already incredibly inclusive of women. They’re heroes in just about every race the game has. If you think it has to drastically change to include women you don’t play it and aren’t interested in it to begin with.

          • af

            To be clear, I don’t think *it has* to change. I understand a lot of people do, however, and some vocal minority feels so strongly against it they feel it would ruin their game. I believe this last group has fewer people than it would seem, it’s just that they are very loud on the internet, as it often happens with the fandom of anything.

            I think it would be cooler if this aspect of 40K changed. I think there is no blocking impediment, fluff-wise, that cannot be easily removed if people want female space marines or female whatevers, for that matter. But no, it doesn’t *have* to change. I’m not talking about rage quitting anything. I’m not outraged or offended about this. If there is anything that really annoys me about 40K lore, it’s the stupid renaming of things… that Astra Milit… Mil… sorry, I just can’t bring myself to say it out loud. Also, the custodes look silly.

          • The Tuque

            No. It hasn’t been. At its core the fluff remains the same. This proves you know nothing of the material at hand and want to force your ideology down more peoples throats.

          • Hossi Blumengaarten

            best comment on the sisters of battle and why feminist/sjw hate them!!!!

  • HydraGC

    Now I am all up for female representation and representation of different ethnicities. Though on the ethnicity department there is a massive amount of representation in the imperial guard alone. 40k has a wide range of characters all taking different ethnicities and backgrounds. Now for the female representation if GW make plastic models for sisters then Yea!!! That will be great no longer will it be over priced metallic models which make it too expensive to play Sisters for any average individual. If they add female guards awesome the imperium does not discriminate when someone offers to get butchered by orks or nids. The god emperor after all does not discriminate when offering a lasrifle. The only bit I am worried is with space marines now if they give the sisters of silence some new flashy armour and lore Yay….but too many people have already voiced their opinions about that subject so I don’t want to pull that pin on the grenade. So I hope GW do it right but well their most recent lore additions have been less than great but hey ho they might pull a diamond out of the bag or we get an age of sigmar. Let’s hope it’s not the latter

  • Strategery.

    i especially like how they point out every fault with the community except for elitism, and the article / facebook group stinks of that to high heaven

    • Wulfen73

      I made several reasonable posts there challenging them and their statements, but no one ever replies, how odd

      • HydraGC

        Hmm not sure why truth be told. What were your responses

        • Wulfen73

          I’m sure there is more than just me waiting, go ahead read through the newer stuff, I’d prefer to maintain anon between sites

          • HydraGC

            Fair enough mate I like reading the messages really. I love 40k so I am a little worried but I will observe for now if done right this new ‘representation’ could be great but if shoe horned in well I will be disappointed

      • Strategery.

        in the group? i tried to join and they blocked me for no reason, i didn’t even troll their qualifying questions

        • HydraGC

          Same thing happened but I answered honestly and was not aggressive, hostile or condensening. I actually was quite open to them. Want equality and then kick people out hmm strange

          • Wulfen73

            It’s because it’s not about equality, it’s politics, I have seen several posts there that are extremely nasty and mean spirited, tying an opponent of their’s to a mass murderer.

            What a nice and unbiased means to critique ideas

          • HydraGC

            Ahh yes I have seen some of those as well. Though the fact that it’s my opinion or your the devil whole stick is always painful when your trying to be nice

          • Wulfen73

            I don’t try to be nice, no one respects nice anymore, what I will do is tell people where they are wrong, and where they are being ridiculous, and there is a lot of ridiculous

          • HydraGC

            Far too much now a days

          • Strategery.

            > what I will do is tell people where they are wrong, and where they are being ridiculous, and there is a lot of ridiculous

            so you’re basically commenting on facebook and youtube 24/7?

          • Wulfen73

            It’s a rough job, but luckily I’m just Living Steel

        • Erik Sjögren

          Maybe it’s because you’re a bigot?

          • Strategery.

            @eriksjgren:disqus nah i answered the questions properly and honestly. IRL i’m a feminist, so the questions were cake.

            instead of me being a bigot, i’m leaning more towards they are overly sensitive textbook SJWs

          • Strategery.

            nice try pathetic troll

      • Muninwing

        given your comments here, i doubt they were “reasonable” — and i bet they were steeped in sealioning…

    • Drpx

      You mean people forming cliques and treating their group opinions as fact?

  • popehentai

    If you feel the need to change it, you obviously don’t love it.

    • And you have to love EVERYTHING about it or you’re not invited in my tree house.

      • popehentai

        Nobody is disinviting anyone… but if you come into a space you say you want to be a part of then demand everything about that space change to suit you, maybe you didnt really want to be there in the first place.

        Maybe if the people who constantly whine like this created their own things instead of trying to change the things other people enjoy instead, there might be a lot less animosity on both sides.

  • georgelabour

    This reads very much like the over blown and almost entirely made up rant against the gaming community that was making the rounds of Facebook last year.

    That one was apparently written by someone who felt that Wyrd Industries was molesting her when it turned down their offer to give them a job whose purpose was to…provide a feminist’s approval of their product.

    Sadly that and the fact that the individual has a history of such abusive actions done for finanical gain was not as well distributed as their bigoted diatribe and hyperbole laden pack of lies.

    But then again almost the entirety of activities undertaken by the cult of social justice are done for similar reasons of garnering wealth and control of others. Which is probably why this reads like so many other similar manifestos.

  • Simon Preece

    I’m my opinion GW think that their player fan base are grown up and adult enough not to care if the models they play with are male or female. The fan base should enjoy the gamme for what it is and not whine about inequalities in a fantasy/scifi based war game.

    There are an entire faction of female warriors. There are female models In Eldar/Dark elder, demons, and imperial guard. Are they in every faction… No. Do they need to be…no.

    If a model doesn’t look female then learn to scull and convert it. Don’t whine about a damn game or the company who made it. The company didn’t sit down and think up ways how they could offend people by modelling their miniatures a certain way.

    This dumb argument is getting old.

    I’m not denying people have had bad experiences while gaming but that is down to the environment you are in and nothing to do with the game itself.

    • Jake Waters

      complaining about inequality in a setting built upon inequality does seem like a rather amusing touch though you must agree

      • HydraGC

        I agree it is fun to watch and read the messages between arguing groups

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        I don’t think casual sexist design is that inherent to GW design.

        If you added female marines, it wouldn’t really change much.

    • So you’re just telling a massive amount of people, to just learn to sculpt facial features of different ethnicities in 28mm miniatures, if they want to get any representation at all?
      Are you crazy?
      Lucky you, that you don’t have to do something so incredibly hard and demanding just to get such representation.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Exactly. So be quiet and eat the soup.

  • The BolS mods really need to stop getting triggered by me merely mentioning Arch Warhammer.

  • Haunter!

    This type of ideological drivel is exactly why I stopped playing 40k. I don’t play a game about monastic space knights fighting aliens in trash can cars to be brow beaten by someone that took a single gender studies course at community college. This type of argument is always just an attempt at control. We saw it happen in comics, they attempted it with video games (and were thoroughly rebuffed, and they’re trying it here. People that constantly shout about inclusivity in a game where you make your models to reflect you clearly don’t care about the actual game and just want others to bend knee to what they say.

    I disagree that 40k needs to change to cater to you. If the game doesn’t suit your exacting tastes, maybe it just isn’t for you.

    It’s odd to argue that 40k isn’t inclusive in the first place. Everyone in 40k is in the same horrible, sinking boat. Everyone is welcome to throw themselves into the meat grinder of eternal war, regardless of where you are from, what you look like, how many tumblr genders you have, or what bathroom you use.

    • Erik Sjögren

      Sooo, you’re saying you stopped playing because someone made you cry on the internet? Well, you are not missed.

    • Except it’s not everyone, but mostly white dudes, and some girls here and there in alien races.

    • The14th

      So instead of expanding the player base GW should just keep a “No Girls Allowed” and/or “Whites Only” sign over the old clubhouse? It’s simple economics, more customers equal more profit. If you’re too afraid of cooties to be on board with that, well that’s your problem.

      • Wiqid Mopho

        Aside from the fact that this supposed phantom customer base that is driven by diversity dollars is nonsense. There is no “In the future there is only apartheid and misogyny”. Women and people of various races have played the game irrespective of this political gibberish. The industry, GW especially, is thriving in foreign markets. My local GW shop and other gaming clubs are full of families from all races,genders and cultures that love the game and the welcoming community. But I guess you have better first hand experience about how minorities and women really feel about representation.

  • onlyonepinman

    Another interesting thing to note is that while there was quite the furore over the response that GW made to Feminist 40k’s post, I don’t know why this is such a surprise. GW haven’t changed their position in response to Feminist 40k’s request, they simply reiterated a position that they had already announced earlier this year at one of the US conventions. It really wasn’t a new announcement and as much as I don’t particularly like the feminist 40k page or agree with anything they say, I don’t think it’s accurate to accuse them of anything worse than having an opinion I don’t share. They’re certainly not responsible for spoiling 40k by pressuring GW into making sweeping changes – those changes were coming whether you like it or not.

    I also trust GW (bizarrely) to make these changes sensibly. I don’t think feminist 40k will get their entire wish list but I do think we will see Plastic Sisters of Battle and Astra Militarum.

    • HydraGC

      I hope the SoB get plastic models and the Astra Militarum have female models coz as I stated earlier the God Emperor does not discriminate when handing over a lasrifle to someone who’s life expectancy just dropped to the life of an ant

      • onlyonepinman

        I’m fairly certain we will see a reinvigorated Sisters of Battle range. I think there’s too much love for them and nostalgia around them and GW has been very responsive to things like that recently.

        • HydraGC

          Good maybe even the sisters of silence perhaps

          • onlyonepinman

            I would possibly include Sisters of Silence as a unit in the Sisters of Battle or make them an order, like a different Marine chapter. I really wanna see Sisters of Battle but I want them to be their own thing. I don’t want them to just be Female Space Marines, I want them to be different in some way, have gear or abilities that Marines don’t have.

          • HydraGC

            Indeed I agree 100% and with the sisters of silence they are anti psykers so they really should be a bigger part of the lore for that fact alone

          • onlyonepinman

            I would possibly include Sisters of Silence as a unit in the Sisters of Battle or make them an order, like a different Marine chapter. I really wanna see Sisters of Battle but I want them to be their own thing. I don’t want them to just be Female Space Marines, I want them to be different in some way, have gear or abilities that Marines don’t have.

          • onlyonepinman

            The Sisters of Silence certainly create an opportunity to turn the Sisters of Battle into a powerful anti-psyker army. Maybe that could be their thing? They don’t have any psykers of their own but have a special order of psychic nulls, the Sisters of Silence, who help protect the Sisters from psykers. I’m just throwing ideas around but I don’t think there’s anything quite like that in the Imperial armies. I also don’t really want to see any of the Imperial Ecclesiarchy included in the Sisters of Battle, I want to see them standing in their own two feet as force on their own rather than just a pawn of the church.

        • Wulfen73

          people have been asking for them since like 4th edition

          • onlyonepinman

            I know and GW has been very unresponsive to Fans wishes until recently. I think the new invigorated GW will produce a new, updated SOB army

  • The BolS mods really need to stop getting triggered by someone merely mentioning Arch Warhammer.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      That guy really does talk like he is sucking his own chode

  • GiftoftheMagi

    Personally I gave never witnessed full on harassment of female players, save those that suddenly become VERY helpful when they are around. But I have talked to female player who claim they have been mocked, harassed, stalked and been cursed at for simply being female. So I am inclined that at least part of what the article claim does happen to a degree.

    As for diversity…yeah…GW is very quilty for having less inclusion than a Klan rally. While yes you can paint your models to be of any race, GW never does. They release very few female models, the majority are alien, and the human ones rather sexualized with tight pants, exposed cleavage and high heels. The one all-female force has boob armor (a stupid design flaw), and hasn’t seen new models or a decent codex in a decade. GW constantly paints their models as white people, and the only “black” members are only black via radiation.

    Worse, in their literature they brutalize female and black characters. The story of a whole Sisters covent killed to paint a Grey Knight force with their blood, or the African-themed Celestial Lions Chapter nearly wiped out until an all white Chapter saves them.

    And asians? I once asked a GW rep if we would see a force or models based on asian culture. He pointed out the Tau. Asians as aliens.

    GW has a problem. Had it for decades. And still has it.

    • “the only “black” members are only black via radiation.”
      You mean like humans who tend to darken when exposed to UV radiation to protect their skin from it?
      I think the Gue’la call it …”tanning”?

      • HydraGC

        I ignored that part coz I refused to believe this individual said that without realising that’s how it happens naturally

      • Muninwing

        you know they retconned the Salamanders to have jet-black skin instead of daring to have brown marines, right?

        so either you’r being intentionally dense, or you’re being intentionally off-topic, or you just ignored the fluff.

      • GiftoftheMagi

        According to the lore, the skin tone is due to genetic mutation and not just “tanning”. Remember the glowing red eyes? But still proves the point: by saying that living on that planet makes you dark, that means they were all light-skinned to start with. All of them.

        And yes I agree that the White Scars are an example of an asian-ish look. But look a bit closer. There has only been ONE model designed with that look, and that’s an HQ choice. Also, the picked the mongol hordes as their background, not China, Japan,, Korea, Singapore, Thailand/Siam, India, etc. They picked a group that ravaged that region of the world for centuries.

        Which brings us to Attila. Again a different planet but the same mongol horde look. Then switch that view to how Ogres and whatever they call them now in fantasy. Mongol hordes. The ONLY asian group with any vague or minor representation, and it’s the one group known for pillaging and rampaging the more established nations of their part of the world…and one that Europe had a lot of contact with first.

        And now finally, add in that not a single new model of any save the Salamanders have been done in a decade.

    • HydraGC

      Um if you want an Asian character read or listen to wolf hunt. It has a main character who is suggested to be at least to be form east Asia having a katana and an accent from that geographical location (audio book) black salamanders and countless imperial regiments. Sisters have been made a joke by the grey knights but take into account that was Matt Ward. There is not many good things from that era of 40k….oh by the way the Asian character I mentioned…..inquisitor so one of the most powerful men in the galaxy is Asian that’s something positive right. The celestial lions are also not a great example due to them being so very different from their founding legion. So that might have been GW not really thinking out the whole story especially since they were being messed with by the inquisition which in all fairness could of killed them a hell of a lot easier then just subterfuge

  • Calarax

    I’m glad my game store is not represented in this article. We are welcoming of everyone and get along, for the most part. I’ve only seen a few rules disputes go out of control, and whoever can’t reign in their temper is asked to leave and cool off. Race is not an issue and to my knowledge neither is gender. There are however few female gamers. I’ve asked a few female friends if they are interested and the flips side to this coin reared it’s ugly head, and I was told they (female friends) would rather play games at our houses because nerds are too nerdy and they are embarrassed to be in public with our folk. I’ve had a couple come around and enjoy themselves but even getting females to come join a game that has no race or gender tied to it is difficult at times. Carcassonne and Catan were the games in question. 40k is overtly sexist and it certainly appeals and panders to that crowd. It wouldn’t be hard to add female heads for use with any existing model. Race is up to the painter however.

  • Mad Jack Deacon

    When it comes to the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, I have a hard time believing the fundamental fact that Astartes must all be male because the process of making them is keyed to the subject being genetically male. It is incomprehensible to me that the Emperor, a scientifically driven (per the HH novels, remember “religions are bad.”) human immortal would be so short-sighted as to only use 50% of the population to defend humanity.

    So if you want to easily retcon the addition of female Astartes, it’s easy. Simply reveal that Legion II and Legion XI were all female, and were never “expunged.” That was all propaganda. For the past 10,000+ years Belesarious Cawl’s efforts have included the development of over 1000 chapters of female Space Marines from those two female legions. They were held in stasis until the “direst of days threatened the Imperium.”

    Imagine you’re a lowly administratum worker in Necromunda Hive 18, and on your way home from your shift in the manufactorum, you see a video of an Ultramarine attacked by filthy xenos orks, knocked down, bolter sent flying. The ork looms over the fallen marine and suddenly the beast’s chest erupts in several small detonations. The image pans back to the Ultramarine on the ground and you see a hand reaching down and a husky, yet still distinctively female voice say “Rise brother, our job is not finished here.” The vid follows up the arm from the pearl white gauntlet to the face of an Amazonian woman in gleaming Mark X power armor and cradling a MkII Cawl-Pattern Bolt Rifle. You wouldn’t care it was a girl. You would care that the Imperium was defended.

    If you want more people playing in our game, the models have to look like them. The models have to represent the people they are. REPRESENTATION MATTERS. Understanding this is not rocket science.

    And there is no reason, aside from insensitive and dogged douchebaggery, that women should not be at least 50% of any human force in Warhammer. And while the gender of models in other races may be a bit weird, in races where there are females, it is incumbent that they are represented equally (at least 50%) and without being sexualized. Boob Armor/Bikini Armor is easy. It’s punching down. It’s lowest common denominator. If you’re a guy and you wouldn’t wear it, why would you expect a woman to do so?

    The good thing is that GW has said that the studio has heard the clamor of the crowd for more inclusion and it taking steps to address those needs. Now it is up to us as the hobbyists in the trenches to make inclusion and representation our watch words as our hobby changes for the better. If you see a guy being a douchebag about inclusion or representation, shut that BS down. Be a hero of the Imperium.

    • Jeddaven

      There absolutely is. Biologically, at least in humans, men tend to be predisposed towards being physically stronger than women. There are exceptions, of course (I’m pretty physically weak, myself), and presumably more in the future than there are now. I’d totally be up for some female Guard models, though. The only reason I can think of GW not doing that is due to the cost vs. benefit of having to put out new sprues for the guard, whether upgrade kits or not.

  • LazloValentin

    We need trans Space Marines of color in wheelchairs. Anyone that thinks a fascistic theocracy wouldn’t be egalitarian is a literal caveman.

    • That was very funny indeed.

    • Bootneck

      Have you seen admech 😛

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      This one seems pretty focused on white dudes considering their Emperor isn’t white

  • phobosftw

    Oh, wait ..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbR44E-gRTU

    Fake feminist busybodies – get rekt.

    • Let’s see how long this stays here. Mods here loved to delete comments merely mentioning Arch.

  • Mad Jack Deacon

    The fact you play a game of toy soldiers set in a fictional universe 38,000+ years in the future and you cannot imagine a female Astartes speaks volumes.

    I hope your most expensive model falls off the table.

    • Jeddaven

      There are actual lore reasons that there aren’t female Astartes. For one, Space Marine are fundementally based on the genetics of a male — now, I’m not a geneticist, but the fact that women do not have a Y chromosome would likely mean that some of the geneseed just wouldn’t work for them. It’s also possible that the organs could very well harm their bodies, since they’re designed for men. Now, sure, it’s feasible that there could be a way to make a female geneseed — but that would mean either needing a woman to serve as a template or a vast amount of work to modify geneseed to work for a woman. Either way, it’s a vast amount of effort, quite possibly more than is necessary for male space marines, for something the Imperium already has. More work for the same result. I could see female Custodes (maybe) being more viable, since they’re already very individual, or Chaos female-Astartes equivalents. Now, keep in mind I am all for making things more interesting. Some female guard models would be lovely, since we know that female guard do exist, and maybe some SoBs with enhancements that aren’t geneseed based.

      • af

        Sorry, “scientific” explanations like this just don’t work. I hate to break it to you, but “geneseed” makes no sense. It’s not even a sci-fi plot device; it’s technobabble (bio-babble?), almost pure fantasy. It’d be no problem at all for GW to make geneseed be unisex, they just need to say so.

        “Due to ancient biotechnology whose exact workings have been lost in time, geneseed can reconfigure itself to perfectly match either a male or female host”.

        Done. GW, I want my paycheck, please.

        • HydraGC

          Umm they tried changing before and the so called cursed founding happened where marines literally combisted into fire at random. And yes gene sead is hard to explain but take into account gene sead is not one item it is a rough overview for about 12 implants into the human body so it is hard to describe. If female space marines were to happen I think they would die from the operation such as having their 10 year old body (btw space marines are made from children) cut open to ram a heart through them. And that would mean ribs are broken/removed and also some organs would have to he removed in case of females bodies coz you know they produce milk. And also gene seed forcefully changes the host to the primachit comes from so what would it do to a female that’s the problem with the lore it’s too in detail about this. If they create something new and makes sense I would be up for it but change the existing gene seed causes problems

          • af

            But you do realize that’s just technobabble, right? GW could easily change it to “this wasn’t possible before, but now we discovered ancient technology buried on planet Abominatium IX which allows existing geneseed to be easily adapted to female hosts”.

          • HydraGC

            This statement is relying on the fact that the imperium is advancing, it most certainly is not if anything if anything it has degraded by a few 100 years. If this imperium was actually progressive you would have a point but it isn’t in fact the technology of the imperium is failing. Power armour is getting worse. Titans are taking longer and longer to build. The predator and lean Russ tanks are being made at a worse quality. So it is highly unlikely that this change or adaption you speak of could happen especially since gene seed is also part warp peer based. Which means it need powerful psykers to make it and well there aren’t many of those

          • af

            Oh, easy. Cawl, while developing Primaris marines, was also working on transplating geneseed to women. Done!

          • HydraGC

            And that is a straw horse. Unfornately cawl’s story makes about as much sense as horny ferret high on LSD. GW yet again really messed up there with their lore ideas but nevermind

          • af

            So you admit a retcon can be done, since GW has done something similar very recently. We’re making progress.

          • HydraGC

            I never said GW don’t retcon they have done it all the time but let’s walk down memory lane and look at the modern ideas the writers of GW have done. Ahh yes Age of sigmar which is blow up everything. I am up for changes and additions but not to the point where they take literally decades of work and flush it down the toilet

          • af

            I’m with you in not liking AoS! I preferred the “renaissance Germany” setting of the Old World best.

            But I am genuinely asking you, no baiting, no snarky remarks: don’t you think it’s a bit extreme to equate a retcon which allows female space marines with flushing decades of work down the toilet? It seems to me this is an emotional reaction which has little to do with what’s possible within the fluff (or real-world genetics — I hope we’re past that at this point) and instead is a way more subjective thing: “I like space marines just the way they are now”.

          • HydraGC

            At the moment the lore and genetics are against you. I am up for brand new items yes something new would be amazing for 40k. Not emotional response everything is logical here, I am saying flush because that is what would happen when, since GW stated the emperor tried to make female space marines. The end result was their bodies imploding and they were the lucky ones

          • af

            If the current lore doesn’t allow it, just change the lore, like GW has already done. What’s the problem? “Female bodies imploding” is just a piece of (not particularly good) fluff. GW can just re-write it away and start selling female space marines!

          • Apocryphus

            Because what’s the point of establishing a setting when its just going to change because someone wants it to? Why even bother writing background at all, or novels, or making audio dramas? If the setting can just change on the fly, it’s not a very good setting. It’s not as though dragons can suddenly appear in our world because someone wants dragons, we have rules that we follow. A good fictional setting needs rules to be immersive, and if those rules are meaningless, everything about the setting is too. Female Space Marines for the sake of pleasing a group of people makes everything previously written pointless and to be honest, is almost more offensive, because you know it isn’t genuine intent, but a just a means of appeasing the masses.

          • HydraGC

            I agree with this

          • af

            First, this wouldn’t be such a radical change. Second, the setting has been changed — that ship has already sailed. Third, I doubt people feel left-out because there are no dragons in 40K; that’s an extreme position nobody is taking. Fourth, maybe the point would be to appeal to more people, because GW is a business and (I bet) this would make business sense?

          • HydraGC

            It is a radical change. 40k is finally getting into the limelight now which is great but demanding to change all it’s decades of work it’s novels audio books some of which are costing in the 100s is an extreme request. I am not against representation bring it on but if it is done right not just forced in. That’s why I like the idea of suggesting Ideas which are completely new and are according to the lore feasible. Hell having replicaes as the new super warriors representing women yes any day. Using Sensie DNA literally children from the emperor yes yes yes. These are ideas that could really allow for the new super soldiers to be made and not be a rehash. So listen imagine the sensie being used to create a new breed of warrior. These warriors would have the abilities of the sensie so changing, psykers of incredible power, enhanced reflexes and strength. Surely these new warriors would be the perfect representation for women

          • Apocryphus

            Just because GW has sloppily changed their IP to push new products (Primaris, notably) doesn’t mean that should be the norm. I mean, no, it actually wouldn’t be a radical change, but would it be meaningful? Would it actually be about inclusion, or just about pandering, or to get people to shut up about it? I, for one, would be a little put off if suddenly female Space Marines popped up just because a vocal group needs that to feel included, because that tells me GW is just silencing them. If this change had come earlier, or gradually, it would seem like a genuine shift, but to drop it now? I don’t think Space Marines, faceless, post human, suoer soldiers whose only purpose is to kill bad guys is even a good place to put this representation. What would even be the point? It would be ultimately meaningless and ineffectual. I also don’t buy that making this change would really draw more players. If a woman is interested in 40k, she’s interested in 40k. Making female marines isn’t really going to make the game appealing to people who don’t find the game appealing, and this sort of business move feels as sexist as Lego releasing “Legos for girls”. It’s embarrassing and offensive.

          • Michael Bradbury

            ” I, for one, would be a little put off if suddenly female Space Marines
            popped up just because a vocal group needs that to feel included”

            Oh well, to hell with the 50% of the population, because you’d be a little put off. Hold back progress folks, Apocryphus wants his toy solders to be REAL MEN.

          • Michael Stone

            Yeah because diversity changes have worked wonder for marvel comic sales. 🙂

          • Dan Paulsen

            Oh, are you saying half of the worlds population is suddenly going to buy an army? You do realize not every male making up the other half of the world plays 40k right… individuals like what they like. Its more mysoginistic to claim to speak for all women.. just saiyen

          • Apocryphus

            Did I say that? I don’t remember saying that, let me me check…nope. If you want to pin me as being a misogynist, fine, but don’t put words in my mouth. If GW is going to put female models in their game, it better be because they think it will add a diversity that they desire to their product line, and not because a bunch of people are yelling at them to do it. Do you want GW to take disingenuous action just to get you to shut up? Because if they did that to me, I’d be pretty upset.

          • HydraGC

            But the fluff is corner stone I like the idea of new but changing the so called greatest human in existence is a bad idea in the extreme. Since the emperor is made out as the ultimate human. It is kinda hard for GW to make such a change and get away with it. If GW took the sensie and used then to create new female super soldiers which are new that is something I would welcome with open arms. Hell combine sensie with replicaes and that is a recipe for ultimate female warriors

          • HydraGC

            Also that is quite a harsh request, hello GW please scrap your decades of work, instead of improving and creating new ideas. So that this can happen. I want new forces to be added it’s the reason I keep repeating the sensie but changing all their decades of work is a little extreme. Creating new forces from new ideas instead of just making a rehash. Well that is a new ball game that can most certainly be played anywhere

          • af

            It’s only a harsh request if you have some strong negative reaction to female space marines. If you don’t, it’s an improvement. If it brings more people to the hobby, it’s also a sound business decision.

            I don’t see how this means scrapping “decades of work”.

          • HydraGC

            Audio books and novels, codes and artwork anyhow I am repeating what I already said here

          • af

            There’s decades of artwork showing there cannot be female space marines, and furthermore, if the fluff is ever retconned said artwork would be ruined? Wow.

          • HydraGC

            Said Audio books which are absurdly priced and I admit to buying far too many. Now let’s say these audio books have statements which have the line “I failed at making female Astarties” quote the emperor. And then they all get retconned so roughly speaking over 400 dollars/pounds/euros and whatever currency a person has all those audio books have to be remade and corrected. That would bot only upset a lot of people but it would cause such a loss of profits for GW redoing all their already finished products as well as the new lore they are working on. Simply put it would be a dangerous mine to stand on from a business terms alone. Like I said new lore which is friendly to existing bring it on. Let me ask you a question why do you want female Astarties. Women and men are different why make them the same have women be awesome and incredible with their own achievements they don’t need to be the same women can do incredible things there own way. Why be the same when they can be themselves? If you want women to be the amazing heroines of the story then let then do it in their own way. Why follow the trodden path when they can go down the untraveled

          • HydraGC

            Said Audio books which are absurdly priced and I admit to buying far too many. Now let’s say these audio books have statements which have the line “I failed at making female Astarties” quote the emperor. And then they all get retconned so roughly speaking over 400 dollars/pounds/euros and whatever currency a person has all those audio books have to be remade and corrected. That would bot only upset a lot of people but it would cause such a loss of profits for GW redoing all their already finished products as well as the new lore they are working on. Simply put it would be a dangerous mine to stand on from a business terms alone. Like I said new lore which is friendly to existing bring it on. Let me ask you a question why do you want female Astarties. Women and men are different why make them the same have women be awesome and incredible with their own achievements they don’t need to be the same women can do incredible things there own way. Why be the same when they can be themselves? If you want women to be the amazing heroines of the story then let then do it in their own way. Why follow the trodden path when they can go down the untraveled
            I gave suggestions for how this could be done. I would love for such events to happen. Use Eldar tech to amour these new warriors with advanced slick armour. So they are not as bulky as power armour. More graceful and as deadly as a knife through the heart. Why is this a bad idea. Why they need to be 8ft something brutes. Why not be new?

            If you want more tales for why this would be a great idea look at our own history the Greek pantheon Athena and Aries…both of them are classed as warrior gods. Athena is the goddess of wisdom and battle tactics, Aries is the god of war. So one will run at the enemy screaming like a headless chicken the other would smile and firmly plant their spear in the eye of the chicken. I know which one my money’s on. Need more examples Atlanta the great heroine who was one of the greatest archers in Greek myth. Even Hercules gave her respect in the tale of Jason and the Argonauts. Of course her story didn’t end well but the common theme with Greek myth is that the gods were not so forgiving if you only slightly angered then.

            This was removed earlier on grounds of spam even though this is quite clearly not spam under any legal legislation so apologies for the late reply

          • af

            I don’t understand why an audiobook would be ruined forever because they introduced female marines. So if they changed something about the Guard, then suddenly Gaunt’s Ghosts is retroactively ruined forever?

            Also, I’m unsure why you’re quoting examples of Greek myth in order to support an argument about 40K. Where is the geneseed that Hercules used? How many cyberimplants did he have?

          • HydraGC

            You really are looking at this far too narrow minded. There is a 30 years of lore supporting the fact space marines are only male. Yet why are you ignoring the options I am giving? 40k is so vast with such an amazing amount of variations it would not be hard to see brand new forces being made I gave you suggestions such as Replicae and Sensie yet for some reason you cling towards the idea that 40k needs to have all of its lore changed. Why rehash existing ideas when they can make completely new ones. The Greek quotes was showing you how differences are strength, if you were unable to see how it was being used then I apologise for it not being clear enough for you.

          • HydraGC

            Also it appears you are not a long time fan since you appear to not understand the importance of the quote

          • MKG35

            Yes because there is no reason to as it makes sense within the setting and apart from pandering to some players does nothing to advance the game or setting. Marines are men Sister are women and the Guard is both so all bases covered.

          • palaeomerus

            Yes and he also built a better psychic dampener than a gellar field that makes warp transit safe. Yay, now we’ve fanfic-ed the chaos problem away too! And then a guardsman reinvents the red dot site tripling effective small arms ranges beyond their pre WW1 levels and…blah blah blah

          • af

            Oh, I didn’t mean that *I* would change the fluff. I meant that it’s possible for GW to change it, and this wouldn’t be harder than having Cawl develop the Primaris marines. The actual hard thing is that some vocal minority seems enraged by the idea of female space marines, and attempts to rationalize their dislike with a posteriori objections of “lack of realism” and “fluff contradictions”, which is absurd because 40K is not realistic and is full of contradictions already, and this wouldn’t be the first time GW changes something about the background of one of their games.

            Ultimately, the test of what gamers “want” or “don’t want” can only be seen in actual sales. If GW made female space marines, would enough people buy them?

          • Rat Finker

            No one would buy female space marines. For one key reason AF: there’s plenty of cheap male models already on the market.

          • af

            Why would cheap male models stop people from buying female models? Or are you saying people would rather buy the male models and convert them to female? It’s possible, I guess. Still, more work than just buying female marines.

          • Drpx

            I agree, but if Guilliman and the Primaris are any indication, GW wants to modernize 40k to fall in line with public perception as with Star Wars and Trek. Nothing to really do except find a comfy spot and watch the poo storm.

          • Iconoc1ast

            And why should they make female astartes? Because your outrage demands it?

          • af

            Outrage? I think you’re confusing me with someone else.

            “Should”? No, *could*, and the arguments of what’s realistic about the geneseed technobabble are absurd, as I hope I’ve shown.

          • Iconoc1ast

            Still why should they do it? Was my question. I did not disagree that this is all technobabble. I never said any of this is realistic either. You have me confused with somebody else.

          • The Tuque

            Psst. They won’t reply to you because their arguments depend entirely on calling you a neck beard misogynist

          • Iconoc1ast

            It is sad isnt it?

          • The Tuque

            Watching them try to argue that their outrage justifies telling an entire fan community that they’re not allowed to have fun

          • Iconoc1ast

            I get especially annoyed with feminism trying to destroy everything that i hold dear. Apparently to them everything is racist, homophobic and sexist.
            Just wish they could look in to the mirror through their froth and white man hatred.
            We had all this same bs with gamergate. The same tired arguements coming back. The dire whiteknighting as well. Sick and tired

          • The Tuque

            Thus why they shouldn’t be given an inch lest they take a mile then complain that they weren’t given 2 miles and a commendation for “resisting” oppression

          • Captain Neckbeard

            Just be happy you aren’t a marvel fan. They’ve killed marvel comics almost completely.

          • Iconoc1ast

            I am. I like dc more (eek). But i know exactly what you mean

          • af

            I don’t know if they *should*, but I think it would make business sense and female space marines would be extremely cool. I can see why people want them.

            It’s great we agree the geneseed thing is technobabble. I never said you said anything about it; I was merely explaining my initial post, since you asked.

          • Iconoc1ast

            I disagree wholeheartedly with fem marines. I cannot see how it makes business sense either. You will lose as many players as you gain by deconstructing this make believe world.

          • The Tuque

            Sisters of battle. Tada I’ve rendered your entire premise pointless.

          • MKG35

            Yes most Sci-fi is gobbledegook but that doesn’t mean they should throw away over thirty years of established backstory.

          • Dan Paulsen

            Right, they can change it in a heart beat. But not by force. Its their world we play in.

          • af

            Of course not by force. Who’s talking about force? If anything, I’m arguing it makes *business sense*.

          • The Tuque

            Hogwash, poppycock and furious amounts of dishonesty

          • af

            I do love the word “poppycock”, though your accusation seems unfair.

          • Dan Paulsen

            Read their charter on their face book page

          • af

            I can’t find anything in their charter that states anything about forcing people. It seems to be a call for more inclusiveness.

            I also don’t speak for them. I don’t belong to that group (but I just liked their page. Thanks BoLS for bringing it to my attention).

        • Jeddaven

          Why the hell not? I get that geneseed isn’t entirely grounded in real-world genetics, but there is absolutely no reason it can’t borrow concepts from it — which, arguably, it has. Like you said, it is technobabble, but it it at least partly based in our understanding of human genetics, however slightly.

          I believe that some of the organs could be used on women — particularly those cultivated outside of the body — but it is stated that at least some need to interact with male cells, in a manner similar to transformation, or sometimes how viruses can alter cells.

          That said, why do they have t9 be female Astartes? Why can’t they be something else of similar effectiveness? Something based on the genetics of saints like Celestine or Sabbat?

          • af

            “Why the hell not?” Because it’s completely detached from how real-world genetics work, that’s why. Ask a biologist. What *very little* resemblance to biology there is is no impediment for “geneseed” to work on women.

            The question you should be asking is “why can’t there be female space marines?” if people want them. The answer cannot be “because geneseed”; that’s just silly fluff that can be easily retconned by GW like they’ve done before.

          • HydraGC

            Um hello expert here and male and females do have genetic differences. I am not trying to upset you or anything but you are saying that there is no difference between males and females. There most certainly is, however I am repeating myself here so I am going to stop it

          • af

            I’m not trying to upset you, but I didn’t say there are no differences between males and females. I’m going to go ahead and doubt you’re an expert on biology or genetics, if you don’t mind.

          • HydraGC

            I don’t mind. It’s the internet after all. No need for me to take offence at people disbelieving. But there are fundamental difference between the male and female anatomy which is what GW focused on when making Astarties. If they make something new which isn’t for one thing a biological mess up or a lore mess up I am all up for it

          • af

            There are differences in female and male anatomy; on the other hand, most “sciency” stuff in 40K is completely made up, this is a “space opera” kind of game, not hard sci-fi, and if people want to play with female space marines, then GW can just rewrite the fluff.

            Nothing in female anatomy makes it impossible for females to use a fictional, semi-magical thing called “geneseed” because said geneseed is completely made up by GW and they could easily re-write the fluff to claim some newly discovered ancient tech makes it possible for geneseed to automatically reconfigure itself for female hosts through nanobots, the will of the Emperor, or magical microscopic elves.

            This is possible because geneseed doesn’t exist, has little basis in reality, and 40K is not a hard sci-fi setting which pays any attention to realism. If people cared about realism, here is an (incomplete) list of things they should worry about *before* thinking of reasons why female space marines shouldn’t exist:

            1- Faster than light travel is impossible and the warp is a magical construct.
            2- The impossibility of managing an empire consisting of thousand of worlds. (See 1).
            3- Most weapons in the 40K are absurd.
            4- Titans are the worst possible use of resources. Bipedal giant warmachines make no sense.
            5- Most flying vehicles make no sense.
            6- Nautical-based warfare in space makes no sense.
            7- Melee-based warfare makes no sense in an age of RPGs and lascannons and blasters and whatnot. If body armor evolves, then ranged weapons evolve, *not* melee weapons. See the evolution of real-world tank armor and anti-tank weapons.
            8- Orks cannot be sentient fungi-based beings. This makes less biological sense than female space marines.

            I’m pretty sure “female space marines” should be pretty down the list of impossible things.

          • HydraGC

            Gene seed is not one item or injection many of the organs were tailor made for the male body but if something new was made something unique and not a rehash that is fine something which is unique. Kinda like some of the assassins of the offisio they are so cool and most of the time female. I like the idea of change and improvement 40k needs progression but not one where it just dumps in itself. As the whole Gene seed thing being a bit made up yes there are factors which make absoulety no sense but then there are other factors that are a lot more closer to real life theories. For instance the the transplanting of organs many of these took into account why female space marines were not to happen, the black carapace for instance that is something which can’t work for the female body at the moment.

          • Rat Finker

            Wrong, I’ll explain a few things about female anatomy to you.
            1 Lower bone density: Poor MALE test subjects for space marines die at a frightening rate undergoing basic gene manipulation.
            2 Lower muscle mass: Women over all have a lower muscle mass than men.
            3: Estrogen and brain chemistry: fundamentally different between men and women to start with.
            4: Women have something called a period, you’ve never had a girlfriend so I’ll probably have to explain it to you. For some women it means uncomfortable painful cramps that can occur as their womb’s lining sheds. Forcing women to use products to prevent themselves from making a mess of their clothing.
            5: women have breast tissue, that is of various ranges and sizes. You would have to make armor comfortable, and tailor made for each of your female soldiers if you wanted them to have comfortable range of movement.
            6: a male retina in the eye is Much thicker, and has a different set of cells that make up a males eye. While women have more cells that recognize colors
            7: biological evolution has driven men to take riskier and more dangerous decisions.
            8: biologically speaking men are more expendable than women. By a logistics stand point alone you can very easily have a handful of males be ready to have children all the way untill they die, where as women can only carry children up untill their forties. Provided the average life expectancy for the imperium is infact roughly 30 years it’s self. Due to guardsmen not living past their first deployments.

            I could go on a long list of physical and psychological differences between men and women. Many reasons would factor in heavily as to why you would want male supersoldiers, all the while female super soldiers would also seem pretty dope too. Because a female super soldier would likely have senses and perception far better than any male equivalent based on natural inclinations in genetic code. Female super soldiers would likely be more dexterous.

          • af

            I’m sorry I was so wrong. Thanks for explaining the differences to me. I guess you’re an expert on human anatomy!

            Just for the sake of completing my elightenment, could you point to the post where I said men and women are identical?

            Are you going to argue about the thickness of male vs female retinas as applied to a fictional universe with demons, the warp, faster than light travel, and huge bipedal warmachines? Seriously?

            PS: It’s possible that I’m wrong and the warp and demons are real and not fictional. If so, I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

          • Jeddaven

            That doesn’t mean they should do it. And, still, if you’re encouraging GW to retcon anything like that (especially when a large segment of the fanbase wouldn’t want that) , why do they have to be retconned into existence? Why not just add in something new that’s just as good as Space Marines? It cheapens the value that the lore has when you make massive retcons like that. I know, they’re fictional characters and all, but I don’t think that you can justify GW making that change until they have good reason to believe that they’re actually going to make more than they lose by doing that.

          • Joshua Gilbert

            Yeah but we don’t like them retconning it’s annoying and makes certain things no other happen.
            But seriously why does there have to be female space Marines? They are made to be warrior super monks. monks are men not women. Sisters of battle are their counterpart warrior nuns.there don’t need to be male sisters and female astartes. Why can’t there just be a men’s group and a woman’s group? There’s nothing wrong with it.

        • ZeroOne

          Do you want to kill off nearly all my Sisters of Battle, because if you do I say you are not one for the sister hood. Do not put mens parts in my sisters!!!

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2240949/Male-to-female-kidney-transplants-more-likely-to-fail.html

          Technobabble, no. There is a real rate of failure if you go messing with human genetics. Blood transplants if done incorrectly will kill, so will incorrectly transmitted organs from blood type, size and even the sex (see the link) can have an affect on the recipients acceptance of the donated organs. Whilst for the most part it is safe, you need to remember that Space Marines are now getting 19 (I think), new organs stuffed into them, so no, the risks across 19 new implants would be too high.

          You can engineer up sudo-marines with the Sisters of Battle and I would love that to happen so I can add them to my Imperial army in plastic, but people are correct to be sceptical with the lore.

          Also, not addressing the point of the original post and your quick jump to you be correct without any reasonably beyond you thinking so, shows you have no respect for their opinions or the hobby.

          • af

            Sorry, but geneseed IS technobabble, and has little relation to real-world organ transplants. Like someone else said, you’re ok with warp travel, demons, cybernetic implants, but somehow organ transplant is where you draw the line? Okaaaay.

            By the way, what’s the risk of failure of transplanting male-to-female organs vs the risk of massive cybernetic implants that replace whole body parts? Which one is riskier?

          • Tyr

            Definitely the biological organs. The risk of cybernetic implants is minimal, theres really just a certain risk of infection. But apart from that, theyre completely fine. It doesnt even have to be fancy technology, todays stuff is already *much* safer than organs. The issue with cybernetics is really just that theyre more inconvenient. They need a seperate power source, maintenance, etc.

            As an example, you can technically live without a heart, lungs or kidneys if youre strapped to the proper machines. You wont die from rejecting them. They just tend to be bulky, prone to errors and generally inconvenient to patients. A transplant is useful because it works just like the orginal, at the cost of possible rejection.

            So yeah. Not the best choice. 😛

          • af

            Let me ask if this is what you’re arguing:

            – Male-to-female geneseed transplants are *riskier* than cyber-implants, because [insert real-world organ rejection problems].

            – Male-to-male geneseed transplants are *less risky* than cyber-implants because… [fill in the blanks]

            Is this what you’re saying? In case you’re not actually saying male-to-male is less risky than cyber-implants, how would you compare the risk factors in all three transplant/implant possibilities?

          • Tyr

            Yeah, transplants are *always* more risky. Even if theyre a perfect match, theres always a risk of rejection. If theyre a *less* than perfect match, the risk goes up. So the least risky would be cybernetics, followed by male-to-male or female-to-female, followed by male-to-female and vice versa. So, sure, you *might* get lucky and have a female SM survive the procedure, but it would be a waaaay rarer occurrence than the already rare male survival. Not really worth it, economically speaking.

            That said, there would be a way to make it work: Just turn the primarch genes female. Delete the Y chromosome and duplicate the X. Not perfect, but technically possible. Pretty sure itd amount to heresy though. 😛

          • af

            And in this scale, how would you rank the risk factor of sci-fi cyber implants (say, the kind that the Iron Hands have, as opposed to real-world external dialysis machines)? Would you say body modifications as those of the Iron Hands are riskier or less risky than male-to-female organ transplants?

            For that matter, how fit for combat do you think a real-world soldier would be after massive body modifications both cybernetic and organic? Since we’re talking about real-world implications, how soon after “crushing their ribs” and being transplanted “11 or more organs” would a human soldier be ready for active duty?

            I hope you see what I’m aiming at. Selectively choosing what would be “realistic” in 40K in order to exclude female marines seems… suspect.

          • Iconoc1ast

            What is your need for female astartes?

          • af

            Mine? None. I prefer the look of the Imperial Guard. However, I do understand people want female space marines, and to be fair, I’d buy some if they looked cool. I’d also buy plastic Sisters of Battle (fingers crossed).

          • Iconoc1ast

            Im surprised about the sisters. Suppose you would like male versions too?

          • af

            MALE Sisters!?!?! Are you crazy!? That would ruin the GAME FOREVER ggGGggGGH–

            –oh, I see what you did. No, I do not want male Sisters (um, wouldn’t they be Brothers of Battle?), but it wouldn’t upset me if other people did!

          • HydraGC

            Thanks for supporting with the end paragraph, Af did jump to a conclusion yes but it’s not as bad as people screaming at you for having different opinions which has happened a lot

        • Tyr

          While youre right that the original reasons dont exactly make a lot of sense, they *are* established canon. Changing canon to fit a new agenda is rarely accepted by existing fans. A much better idea is to *add* to the canon – Instead of female marines, have something new (possibly from Cawls geneforges? He seems to be a reasonable Deus ex Machina) that follows established themes, but technically *isnt* a spacemarine. Maybe have a subfaction of the Sisters of Battle that were genetically modified to be SM-ish? No geneseed, but still superior to humans? It would even solve one of the issues the current SoB line has, with there being barely any variety in units (you have… sisters in armour, sisters with wings, and naked sisters… yeah, great…)

          This approach would be waaaay more palatable to fans, since GW has been doing this kind of thing for ages. Whenever they brought out a new kit, in fact. So yeah. My 2c.

          • af

            True, the thing is it’s just some vocal fans who are arguing against it. The true test would be the market: change the fluff and start selling female space marines. Do they sell? Do they not?

            If the “agenda” is more inclusiveness, I’m all for it. Especially since most GW products are being re-targeted to a younger audience.

          • Rat Finker

            I don’t think you understand feminism40k’s agenda.

          • Tyr

            Yeah, but the true test also includes a huge risk for GW – what if the vocal minority isnt so minor? Even if it was just 25% of all SM players, youd lose a significant chunk of your overall profits. Businesses are generally risk-averse, so it seems unlikely theyd take the plunge.

          • af

            I think GW is not above retconning or even throwing away whole product lines. We’ve already seen this, it’s not my speculation. Primaris, Age of Sigmar, the throwing away of Specialist Games, the (many years later) re-edition of some Specialist Games, etc.

            Arguments of “risk aversion” seem puzzling in this context. It sounds more like “some male dudes aversion” to me 🙂

          • HydraGC

            Agreed though I still dislike Cawl with a passion though perhaps the sensie being used to create new warriors would be an interesting idea, new and with the sensie being the children of the emperor and apparently immortal since they have been around since big e was forced on god sustain gold couch for 10,000 years. Not space marines but something greater than humans

          • James Regan

            while i totally agree that female space marines would be easy to retcon into current fluff, actually making physical model changes seems maybe harder, and probably something to do at least after balancing the gender ratio in guard (where there are no reasons)- marines are infertile, and lack sexual organs. their torso is shaped byt a mass produced shell implanted under the skin. Their faces are well documented to be inhuman in proportion (rampant gigantism, for a start). Therefore, model-wise, what would actually be different for a female marine. I mean, half of my marines now could well be female, but they’d still have had their bits cut off, have chests that look like a termite in a skin suit, and facial features that aren’t realistically human at all. We’ve already got chapters that would like longer hair anyway, so what modelling change are we expecting? (again, i’m not fussed about fluff changes, as they seem less relevant to the hobby front where economics etc. are involved, so if they say ‘yep, some marines were women when they were human’ it seems a reasonable change, I am just wondering whether Dante’s gender 1000 years previous is that relevant to his model).

          • Tyr

            Yeah, Cawl was just an example. You could use any existing plot-hook to achieve it.

          • HydraGC

            Hopefully they use the sensie or replicae both are interesting and not very flashed out in lore. Both could be used to make some new and interesting factions. Which has the added bonus of not ruining the decades of lore build up

          • HydraGC

            They could try using the genetics of the Sensei or even the Replicae both need to be flashed up in lore and both could be used to make some new and interesting factions for 40k without the side effect of damaging existing canon

          • Marik

            Established canon is about as sacred to GW as a jar of piss. Why? Because it’s words on paper, and at the end of the day GW is a miniature company first and foremost.

            If GW wants female Astartes/Primaris, we will get them. If you don’t believe me, ask any Necron player that has been playing since 2nd/3rd and ask them how much of a crap GW gives about rewriting lore.

            Why would GW do this? To sate, quote, “Libtards” and “Feminists?” No. How do I know this? Because the most simple answer is usually the correct one, and the simpliest answer here is this: GW wants to make money. Mathematically speaking, a diversifying player base means more sales. Changing and adding onto the lore also benefits them, as they can make new model kids (see: Primaris, Ynnari, Genestealer Cult Miners, etc).

            Let the lore change and evolve. It is as Tzeentch demands it.

          • Tyr

            Not true. Im pretty sure AOS gave them a bit of a wake-up call. Lots of people left the game not only because it was radically different mechanically, but also because existing fluff was completely dismantled. And as a necron player who has been playing since early 4th (when the old codex was still in use), I resent that. 😛

            Though in any case, even the necron changes werent much of a retcon, simply because the old necrons were an enigma – no one knew what they were up to, what they wanted, why they did what they did. The new fluff simply filled in the blanks, and yeah, many people didnt like it. Some people left. I should know, I was admin of one of the major necron forums at the time.

            And thats exactly the issue: If you change things, your customer base changes. Its a huge risk. They could do it with necrons and even all of WHFB because the customer base was small – even if you lost all of the vets, you didnt really have to worry too much, since they were a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of 40k. Change marines though? Your may have just pissed off 3/4 of your existing fanbase. If even a third of them leave, thats going to massively impact your profits, only for the gamble of possibly getting some new players in there. The risk is *way* too high. No sane buisnessman would do that. Its a lot easier to use sisters as the vehicle. Theyve been neglected for several editions now, so the existing customer base is small, and most have everything theyre ever going to need. You wouldnt lose much, even if you severely pissed them off and lost a large chunk of them. (not that Id wish that on them)
            So instead of adding female marines, add female pseudo-marines. Way better business decision.

          • Reven

            Honestly I greatly prefer that my Sisters aren’t Gene-enhanced, that Sisters of Battle can fight Marines on near equal footing in the fluff though sheer determination and an absolute faith in themselves and the Emperor feels much more inspiring and heroic then well we pump this girl up gene juice and now she’s just as good as the boy who was given the gene juice.

            Personally I’d rather see the Sister’s roster expand but not while compromising key parts of their character. They are normal humans, just at peak physical condition. All of the Orders are either flowers, parts of the human body, or things made by humans. Why not artificer armor biker sisters with power lances? Maybe some new vehicles to grant access to the larger weapons of the holy trinity of weapons?

            If they just came out with new gene enhanced sisters or something that is basically the same thing would feel cheap and lazy to me and make me like my faction less.

          • Tyr

            I wouldnt want to change them completely either, but it would definitely help GW get out of the problem of what to do with sisters. Theres very little they can do to add to the faction, and gene-enhancing would open the door to completely new troop types. Think sister terminators, elite shocktroops, that kind of thing. It definitely shouldnt be a complete remodeling though, imo. Non-modified should still remain the core of the faction.

        • Rat Finker

          Ok I’ll help you. THE GENESEEDS ARE BASED OFF PRIMARCHS, WHO ARE CLONES OF THE EMPEROR MADE BY THE EMPEROR. YOU WOULD NEED THE EMPEROR IN HIS GENIUS TO MAKE A FEMALE PRIMARCH TO BASE A GENE SEED OFF. ALL OF WHICH TECHNOLOGY AND KNOWLEDGE TO DO HAS BEEN LOST.
          If you knew the first thing about 40k, you’d know that 40k isn’t a time of understanding. christ read the prologue speech that’s in EVERY book.

          • af

            I understand about the clones and the geneseed. I understand the fluff currently doesn’t particularly support female marines, but it’s merely fluff and easily retconned. The fluff also never mentioned Primaris marines, and now here they are. Just as easily they could explain that newly discovered (by Cawl?) but ancient tech now allows to reconfigure geneseed for female hosts.

            Also, take it easy, man. I understand you’re upset, but nobody is going to take this game away from you.

          • The Tuque

            Except you who wants to

          • af

            Evidently other people want to, since I didn’t bring the subject up and I don’t belong to that facebook group (though I just liked it, thanks BoLS for bringing it to my attention!)

        • Bob Dylan

          Why don’t we ask GW to make geneseed available for xenos and start an alien space marine army for the imperium?

          • af

            Are you arguing human women are closer to aliens than to human men, so that making fictional geneseed available to fictional women is as extreme fluff-wise as making it available to fictional aliens?

            Wow… just wow. It helps me understand a lot of nerd rage.

          • Iconoc1ast

            Wow you really know how to puts words in peoples mouths

          • af

            Oh, no, I’m asking. So you do not see the absurdity of answering “why not female marines?” with “why not xeno space marines?” as if they were the same? Also, are you following me? I’m starting to think you like me!

          • Iconoc1ast

            No i do not see that question as absurd. Why would i be following you?

          • af

            I think the question is absurd because it is a straw man; it replies to something I said with something I didn’t say. Instead of actually addressing my argument, it proposes a different argument I didn’t make, in order to ridicule it.

            I don’t know why you’re following me. Why are you? You seem obsessed.

        • Dirk Hammer

          Sorry, but if a fictional world doesn’t adhere to it’s own established rules it starts to fall apart. Why not just change everything at that point? It wouldn’t be Warhammer 40K then, it would be something completely different. If you don’t like the way it is, find a different fictional world that suits your interests, don’t force change to disappoint people who are already fans.

          • af

            > “Sorry, but if a fictional world doesn’t adhere to it’s own established rules”

            This is funny. You do remember we’re talking about 40K, right? 🙂

            > “don’t force change to disappoint people who are already fans”

            I’m not forcing anything on anyone.

            More importantly, why do you feel so strongly about female space marines that you think including them would ruin the game for you? Is this truly a deal breaker for you? If you feel so strongly about female space marines, do you think it’s at all possible that other people (not me) feel just as strongly, only with the opposite opinion?

            Remember a lot of disqualifying comments stated “why do people care about this so much?”, “who cares?”, “do we need female Tyranids now, har har!”, “are you narrow minded you need to see your sex or ethnicity represented in the game?”, etc. But apparently people — like you — do care, right?

          • The Tuque

            Yes you are forcing things on people. Sitting there and screaming at the fans and makers to change because you are offended or don’t like it IS trying to force change. But you’ll just call everyone who disagrees with you a misogynist that hates change and is also a nazi.

          • af

            Nazi? Screaming? Offended? What? Are we reading the same discussion?

          • Iconoc1ast

            What you write does give that impression. You are the one obsessed with fem marines.

          • af

            Obsessed because I replied to comments on an article about the subject? By that token, you’re just as obsessed.

            Could you kindly point me to where I mentioned nazis, screamed or became offended? I’ll help you with the last one: I’m not offended. The rest of the evidence is up to you.

          • Iconoc1ast

            And i said it gives that impression. Never said that you did say that so calm down about the evidence.

          • af

            I’m calm, but it’s starting to give the impression that you like me and follow me everywhere!

          • Iconoc1ast

            Think what you like. Just trying to understand the stance that you take.

          • The Tuque

            You have no arguments other than muh diviersity and your fluff is subject to change because i say it is. You clearly have no knowledge of the subject at hand and just want to force your ideology down fans throats

          • af

            It’s hard to understand what you’re saying. What do you think is my ideology? In which way am I forcing anything on anyone?

          • The Tuque

            You reject all arguments with strawmen and tell fans that they’re just being narrow minded. You provide no evidence for your “good business sense” when forcing diversity has shown time and again that it is terrible for business. And your ideology is toxicly prevalent with only a cursory examination of all of your comments. In summary your arguments tired your prose weak and your incessant need for attention saddening.

          • af

            I did not claim to provide evidence, I just said in my opinion it makes business sense. I did not talk of forcing anything on anyone. Again, what exactly do you think is my ideology?

            May I suggest instead of “cursory examination” you try “careful reading”?

        • Dirk Hammer

          “Why not just make every Star Trek character an Ewok? It’s all technobabble anyways.” – Guy who clearly isn’t a fan of sci-fi.

          • af

            “Making geneseed available to female marines is exactly the same as turning every Star Trek character into an Ewok, because females are icky and are almost like aliens anyway!” – Guy prone to nerd rage and fits of exaggeration.

          • The Tuque

            Quick better call him a misogynist instead of presenting an actual argument!

          • af

            Quick better claim I said something about Star Trek and Ewoks that I didn’t say, then complain if I make a similar retort!

          • The Tuque

            Still waiting on a refutation of the original point, making a cogent argument that doesn’t depend entirely on telling them that they’re just being a rabid misogynistic fan

          • af

            I’m sorry, what do you think is the original point? I’m lost, since you don’t seem to have actually made any.

            If you meant Jeddaven’s point, I actually argued that “genetics” is not a valid impediment, since geneseed has little relation to actual, real-world genetics, and is instead entirely made up. Because it is made up, it could easily changed by GW if they wished to sell female space marines. That’s all.

            I didn’t call Dirk a “rabid misogynistic fan”, I called him prone to nerd rage and exaggeration, which you must admit is not entirely baseless given that he talked of turning all Star Trek characters into Ewoks. Maybe I overstepped; I apologize. I thought it was all fun and games since, you know, he implied I didn’t know anything about sci-fi! My mistake.

          • The Tuque

            Again you prove you know nothing of the in universe lore and subscribe to the idea of changing things simply to suit your narrative. Geneseed’s in universe application and explanation shouldn’t be subject to change simply because you want diversity and stop claiming its for better business as you’ve no proof that it promotes it other than you swear it does. marvel is going downhill because of forcing diversity. Secondly Dirk provided an equally outrageous example to making female space marines just for the sake of doing so. And stop playing the victim card of its all fun and games excuse me trying to pigeonhole all 40k fans because of my ideology, so stow that card back into the deck.

          • af

            I’m not trying to “prove” anything. I’m sure you know more about 40K lore than I do.

            What is my ideology?

          • The Tuque

            Down to the brass tacks of it you believe that diversity is the only way, that those who disagree with you a merely being stubborn at best misogynist at worst in short your toxic ideology is that of a modern third wave feminist.

          • af

            I do believe diversity is a step in the right direction. You made the rest up, so nope. Not a third wave feminist. Maybe try again?

            And what *was* the point you keep referring to?

          • The Tuque

            And you’re right you’re not trying to prove anything just strawmaning all fans because you have no points to prove and no basis of argument

          • af

            So you don’t have a point and claim something about my ideology, but when pressed you cannot say what it is?

          • The Tuque

            Look up I’ve already responded to that and what your ideology is but for the sake of reiteration you’re a blatant third wave feminist intent on conforming all to your ideas. it has nothing to do with business or it’s improvement it has everything to do with your need to shoe horn in diversity for its own sake. Again you’re a third wave feminist, an ideology if I’ve ever seen it. Once more just in case you’ve missed it, your ideology is third wave feminism.

          • af

            Nope. Guess again.

            Also, please don’t accuse me of things based on guesses. You wouldn’t like it if I accused you of things you didn’t say or do.

          • The Tuque

            Well then by all means present your ideology and basis for why forcing diversity is a good idea. Present arguments! Debate! You claim that all it takes is a simple lore change, without knowledge of the lore itself. It is akin to saying why didn’t Tom Bombadil just take the ring to Mordor. And I don’t care if someone accuses me of something i didn’t say or do because I have the ability to refute such claims with proof!

          • af

            No, why do I have to say anything about any ideology — mine or yours — here? I have already made an argument, but I don’t see you making any. Follow your own advice: present arguments! Debate! But try to stay calm, to be honest you seem a bit upset.

            PS: people have debated the Bombadil thing for ages. Also, do Balrogs have wings?

    • Did you consider that it’s maybe not the male aspect of the miniatures being the issue at hand, but the fact that it’s a game about war with little toy soldiers? The girls I know are not interested in that. No matter the lore or how the miniatures actually look like.

      • JN7

        That’s the oldest and lamest argument of them all. “It isn’t that women don’t like incredibly oversexualized female representations, they just don’t like X.”

        • Iconoc1ast

          What are you talking about?

    • Iconoc1ast

      What is this desire to have female spacemarines?

    • MKG35

      There aren’t any female Space marines just as there aren’t any male Sisters of battle just get over it.

    • Dirk Hammer

      “Play a game of toy soldiers” WOW YOU REALLY SOUND LIKE A FAN OF WARHAMMER!

    • Koen Diepen Van

      Like the first post says. I think a lot of ppl just misunderstand the setting. 40k is all about the things that are wrong whit society. It is repressive, xenophobic, hateful, and aggressive. By it’s very concept it should not be that inclusive. The imperium are literally space fascists they revel in violence. The whole meaning of live defined by death. Making the setting to pc would ruin it. The power of 40k is to show what we all know to be wrong about the human condition. To show how flawed we all are deep down on the inside. Making it perfectly nice would not make it better as a social critique it would make it worse. While it is kinda disturbing that a lot of “fans” can’t see past the power fantasy to see the critique behind it. That in itself show the problem whit the current social movement. The current social movement is focused to much on making things inclusive. (movies, TV, games other media) And to little on making ppl inclusive. I know the assumption is that they think ppl learn that behavior trough media and that if we change the media that behavior will go away. But that is just plain misguided. The fear of the other the mistrust of ppl not in your smallest social circle is part of human nature. It’s a survivalist trait it is in our very DNA. Just making everything nice and inclusive will not change ppls nature. It is something we all need to overcome and to do that we first need to be aware that it exists. and so we do need social commentary, we do need things that show how ugly we can be in our hearth and minds. So in short, more female models? yes bring em on. More female guard more female xenos. All the way. Change SOB no. Change marines no. Because it is their very sexist nature that is the commentary

  • Happycamper

    LMAO since when are sisters of battle “sexy” lol

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      sexualised, slightly different.

    • Drpx

      GW shows their boobies.

  • Jeddaven

    There are times when diversity fpr the sake of it doesn’t really make too much sense — female space marines, for example — but I’m all for adding in more options where they make sense. SoBs desperately need an update, and the heels/boobplate don’t make much sense. That said, I’m a little confused regarding the racial diversity argument. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from having a regiment of guardsmen with all sorts of skin colours. I might grant that there aren’t many canon guard regiments that fit the bill too much (aside from Tallarn, Macabians, Atillans, some Catachan and Cadians, etc — might be forgetting a few), but I don’t think that’s really the result of racism or ignorance. It seems more to me like simple marketing — GW primarily operates in countries where there are majority populations of Europeans or people of European descent. That said, I’m fine with them mixing it up as long as it makes the game more fun.

  • frank

    How many women do you think want to play with expensive toy soldiers? most women i know do not say these minis are too sexist for me but, why you would pay as much as it costs to play the game? not saying to not add diversity to the game but that is not going to be the magic bullet that drives up sales to this fan base that’s not there already.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Could you say the same thing about people who play Dark Eldar. Its proportionally about the same as the amount of female players in the US, about 2%

      Should we not cater to DE players

      • frank

        is this about sisters of battle cuz i’m willing to bet their are more women who play than evil fey sadists? has Gw inclueded them to appeal to a particular demographic i had been unaware of? probably find there is more of a fan base to squats than either of these demographics.id personally love to see both sisters of battle and squats get new minis. doesn’t mean that all female players play sisters either? i know several sisters players and not one of them is female and seems sexist and patriarchal to tie female players to one army but who knows…. oh you do lol. Btw i play Dark eldar and have since 5th ed if you think Gw caters to DE players you are definitely wrong. really I mean this in good fun but if you think GW is pandering to Dark Eldar players they have only lost minis since 5th not like they keep pumping out the sculpts.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          Sisters are/were designed to appeal to male players.

          GW barely caters to DE players, thats true. It does however cater to them more than it caters to its female players (who want to see more lady humans), which are roughly the same proportion.

          • frank

            my point wasn’t that theirs no female gamers, is that what you think i mean? what I am saying is that if you add more female-minority sculpts it’s not going to open the floodgates of GW sales.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I think I may have misunderstood you.

            To be clear, I am looking to better represent players already hobbying, and gain a more diverse player base. Its always going to be primarily white dudes, but still.

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    There’s an alternate take on marvels troubles https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/05/the-real-reasons-for-marvel-comics-woes/527127/

    I don’t think its as clear as you present it

    • Michael Stone

      Yeah but it doesn’t explain the lack of sales for the books that include the bad diversity (eg: female thor and similar), the article and the excuse given were kinda poor, but its more the idea that forcing changes, instead of coming up with something new pisses people off. Also its the fact that the call for diversity seems to only be called for in 1 direction, eg: No demand to make sisters of battle to be male inclusive, or a more recent but different topic, where boy scouts include girls, but no push for girl scouts to have boys. (Its that kind of diversity thats the problem).

      Also notice that this group is Ideology first, hobby 2nd. Its not 40K feminist, rather Feminist 40k

    • shabbadoo

      An alternate take of idiocy. That article is either taken out of context, or the people at Marvel missed the point because they are just plain stupid. The worst explanation would be that they couldn’t care less (i.e. “@#$! those people! We’ll do it however the hell we want to!”). Gaming and comic book fans don’t have a problem with diversity. What they do have a problem with however are iconic characters/backgrounds being changed to showcase such diversity. If you want diversity, create NEW characters/backgrounds that showcase that diversity. Doing it by making Thor female (Thor is a MALE PERSON, not a non-identity hero title which could be male/female/anything, like a “Green Lantern” can be) is going to piss fans off. Or if, all of a sudden, you make Peter Parker Asian. There can certainly be an Asian Spider Man (just as there could be any sort of female Spider Woman); it should just be a Spider Man *other than* Peter Parker. And so on.

      Nearly every comic book fan won’t have any problems with diversity so long as the characters are cool, just so long as the fan isn’t beaten over the head with that diversity. Comics have suffered from such ill-though out changes, which are really a lack of respect/understanding for character identity. Movies could probably weather it better through the secondary DVD market, but only because more people watch movies than read comics. Doesn’t mean such a movie won’t tank after week one though, such that it will have been a catastrophic investment for the producers who shelled out hundreds of millions of dollars to make it.

      The main point that fans go nuts over is the nouveau idea that everything needs to be able to be everything. No, it does not. What usually makes things interesting is the very fact that not everything is able to be everything. That’s why I think “I can pretty much do everything, the best” Superman is not anywhere as interesting as “I’m just a guy…with a lot of combat training, some cool toys (because I am RICH!!!), and a good deal of
      intellect.” Batman. They had to make a special rock just to cut Superman down to size, because even the writers knew he was freakin’ lame without it.

      • Alex McNabb

        Forcing narrative changes to fit some diversity quota looks artificial. It looks fake, people know that some dumb social awareness is more important than writing a good script/creating compelling characters/being true to spirit of a thing.

  • Koonitz

    Am I the only one that has never heard the term “virtue signalling” before the comments on this blog post?

    • Wulfen73

      Yes Dean

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Des Yean

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    Seems odd that people are getting so very offended by people wanting greater diversity.

    Surely they could keep making their armies all grumpy white dudes with little trouble, I’ve not seen anyone call for a ban on them.

    • HydraGC

      It’s not the fact that people don’t want representation, despite the fact 40k is about one of the best sci fi universe for representation,. It’s more due to fact GW appear to be shoe horning it in. If it is done correctly It’ll be roses and Ice cream but if it is just forced in it’s really going to light a fire upon the existing system and lore that GW have literally spent years building. It’s this reason alone fans are panicking coz the lore has been built into this great universe and if it then starts to contradict it’s self it can really ruin everything GW built up. I am optimistic for this if it is done right as I said It’ll be great but if not well we’ll see

      Also take into account 40k takes it’s self seriously compared to other sci fi universes

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Could you expand further what you mean by shoe horning in, and provide an example of GW doing it so far.

        How would one add diverse character in a way that is not shoe horning?

        • HydraGC

          Simple better sister models the reemergence of the sisters of silence as a major faction. These additions make sense lore wise as they are important forced in 40k
          The shoe horning would how GW needed a villain-esk space marine chapter so they created the marines malevolent……oh and these are loyalists added in just to be villainised for the purpose to make the salamanders heroes again. GW has on many occasions stood on itself if they do female space marines it will seriously damage the entire lore they have created but if they make female warriors who are great and advanced but not the equivilant of space marines but their own warriors that would be amazing. But with the so called primeaus (can’t spell it sorry) GW appear to be shoe horning random stuff in.
          And shoe horning is basically forcing additions in just because, for no reason. If done right It’ll be great

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I might be misunderstanding, but are you saying the whole horus heresy is shoe horned?

          • HydraGC

            When did I mention horus heresy the conflict I am referring to is the war for Armageddon

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            The evil spacemarines

          • HydraGC

            The marines malevolent are a 41st millennium chapter mate. So they are not traitors. It’s the war for Armageddon a battle that happened between the imperium and the orks led by the beast of Armageddon. This is most certainly not the Horus Heresy. I am quite surprised you were unaware of this story it’s one of the bigger ones that have happened after the Horus Heresy. It’s fairly well documented

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I’ve not read it I’m afraid. Armageddon was a bit dull for me. Not my thing.

            Was a fantasy nerd back then.

  • Regal Giant

    Pretty sure the biggest target for the ‘haters’ of the group is that it has ‘Feminist’ in the title, its that simple.

  • Argon Swizzle

    This does bring up a good point. GW really needs to address the over feminization of males in the Dark Eldar line.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      They are pretty masculine. Strong, handsome, lovely hair.

  • Suicidemaniac

    Ugh, it was only a matter of time I guess.

    And are people really that shallow that if there aren’t a representation of their own race they get turned off? It’s the far distant future with toads that could vaporise an entire city, and hyper-evolutionary bugs that just want to eat everything, you’d think the focus would be on taking a stand as a human being against galactic horrors (or against), and not whether your particular ethnicity is represented in plastic figures?

    The whole “boys’ club” thing is pretty irritating though, and I’m aware it happens but in my experience it invariably boils down to creepers trying to hit on the women, rather than “get out because you’re a girl hurr.”

    … And lack of female models turns off women? Again, I’m pretty sure it happens but every Sisters player I have met off or online have always been dudes. Most of the others gravtitate towards Orks or Tyranids, and I’m pretty sure this isn’t a local phenomenon. I feel the problem is more in the ageing model lines because no one actually plays them full stop, rather than lack of women.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Sisters are really designed to appeal to dudes (sexualised, all female, lack of body types, lack of characters with unique female experiences.)

      So its kinda to be expected they appeal to men.

      Eldar and DE tend to attract the most women.

      • Wulfen73

        “Unique female experiences”

        I think you may have missed some imperium lore

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          I collect sisters, love em, but they are clearly written by dudes

          Edit: I mean the authors are mostly if not all dudes, but the sisters in lore, rather unlike say in GoT, are written with a lack unique female experiences.

          • Wulfen73

            Yeah but dude, the whole idea of the imperium is uniqueness is crushed down

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            So in regards to experiences, I am talking about events or situations that can only happen in a womans life.

            Women talking to other women in a realistic way, the general day to day stuff in a patriarchal society (we do get a bit of this with the sisters, but its a bit hollow), child birth, mothering

          • Wulfen73

            how much of anyones day to day do we get beyond soldiers?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Quite a bit, lots of spacemarine guys talking to other guys in realistic ways.

            When the sisters talk to each other its not really that well written, and it pretty much written in the same way as guys talking to other guys, or they tend to talk about guys.

            Edit: I do understand the irony of complaining about writing, when mine is terrible.

          • Wulfen73

            So… soldiers

  • rm17

    The fact you play a game of toy soldiers set in a fictional universe 38,000+ years in the future and you cannot imagine a female Astartes speaks volumes.I hope your most expensive model falls off the table.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Hey now, no one deserves that…. except maybe eldar players.

  • Paul Wesley Pratt

    Quote:

    “However, like all fandoms, it has its dark underbelly: a tribal and
    woefully toxic group of players who seek to isolate and protect “their” fandom at all costs, similar to a child screaming over “their” section
    of the playground when it is to be shared for everyone.”

    Quote from same article:

    “Feminist 40K is a closed community…”

    F all of this virtue signalling BS. You hypocritical twats.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      what do you think of their reasons for being a closed group?

      • Wulfen73

        So they have complete control over the discussion

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          so what about the bit under your quote. Where they say their reasons?

          Do you not believe people will be overly toxic to them

          Edit: not your qoute, Pauls

          • Wulfen73

            I do believe people will be toxic to them, if you read the stuff they have posted it is meanspirited, nasty and libelous on some posts

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            so they above comment by paul isn’t toxic?

          • Inco Gnito

            Exactly… he used a naughty word!
            Clearly mean-spirited !

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Its their call if they want naughty words or not.

            I’m asking whether you think its toxic or not?

          • Majere613

            I’d say it’s an understandable reaction. Mildly abusive, certainly, but the if the tone of this piece is anything to go by anyone who doesn’t share this group’s views is going to feel attacked, and when you aren’t allowed to respond directly, and when anything you say in response is likely to be twisted and turned against you, people do get frustrated and angry.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Then by closing the group, it will prevent those who feel attacked from being hurt further.

          • Wulfen73

            that is some phenomenally flawed logic, it is that their ideas are not up for debate to them

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Can you provide me an example Warhammer Facebook page that allows debate that is free from toxicity.

          • Wulfen73

            Sure, the very moment you find me any page that allows debate that has no toxicity. When people get impassioned they will yell stupid crap at each other

          • Inco Gnito

            Might one argue that no debate is free of toxicity?
            Two possible courses:
            1) We demand debate to be shut down… brilliant
            2) We acknowledge that toxicity is a necessity and deal with it… like adults… instead of censoring it

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            So then if they wanted to prevent toxicity, their stated goal, having a closed group would go some way to achieve this?

          • Wulfen73

            And advertise their unwillingness have their ideas challenged which is rather weak, they are a political advocacy group, not a fan page

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            they are also a fan page. I think they are mostly fans of warhammer. It is possible to be both.

          • Wulfen73

            You can be, but the page is about advocacy, it’s right there in their own writing, thus it is a political advocacy group and if you are unwilling to debate as an advocacy group then it is difficult to take you seriously

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Do you feel facebook is a good forum to debate poltical ideas.

            Could you point to a page that has feminist debate that does not suffer from toxicity.

          • Wulfen73

            So we are going back around the same circle again, you already went this line of reasoning, feminism is a political advocacy group.

            If you don’t want to debate political ideals on facebook, don’t have a political advocacy group on facebook, it’s not that difficult. Political parties put themselves out there and end up in debates too. PETA does, etc etc

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            They are not asking to be a politcal debating group though. It is possible to advocate for something without debate.

          • Majere613

            I remember many years ago, when Penny Arcade still had article comments, a discussion about a fighting game background that was considered ‘problematic’ due to stereotyping of the location (in africa). A lively discussion in the comments was eventually locked by an admin who started his comment with ‘sorry dudebros…’
            I checked the thread. It had maybe two knuckle-draggers in it, the rest were making valid points about the artistic style of the game, including some people who claimed to live near the location and thought it pretty accurate.
            I’m totally willing to believe that their group has attracted some hateful comments, but locking outsiders out is a handy way to avoid dealing with inconvenient arguments.

    • Aura1

      Anybody using the phrase virtue signalling is virtue signalling. And not very bright.

      • Paul Wesley Pratt

        my god… so insightful. Its like the Academy in here.

        • Aura1

          You want to be a Weinstein? At least you’re open about your goals, I guess…

          • Paul Wesley Pratt

            Weinstein?

            Greek Akademia. Read books.

      • Drpx

        Anyone who calls someone sexist or racist is sexist or racist. And a poo-poo head.

    • The14th

      Lol, you just demonstrated why it’s a closed group. So people like you can’t just crash every discussion.

  • Majere613

    Actually there’s one more thing I have to say on this topic, even though this is late and few people are likely to read it.
    Some of the ‘problems’ with representation in 40k are for in-universe reasons. Female marines are the most obvious one (though female Primaris could be worked in if GW really wanted to), but you could certainly say that Sororitas armour is shaped the way it is due to the Decree Passive- they want to leave no doubt that you’re not looking at a ‘man under arms’.

    The argument goes that you can’t use ‘in universe’ reasons that way. If your background says men or women can’t/don’t do something, change it so they can. To this, as someone who considers himself creative and has written a novel amongst other things, I say in no uncertain terms No Damn Way. Nobody has the right to tell someone that their creative work is ‘wrong’ because it doesn’t conform to their ideals of race, gender, or anything else. They didn’t have that right when they tried to ban ‘Lady Chatterley’s Lover’ or ‘A Clockwork Orange’, they wouldn’t have it if they had tried to ban John Norman’s outrageously sexist ‘Gor’ series, and they don’t have it anywhere else. If a book, film or game chooses to portray a world with inequality or anything else ‘problematic’ people are completely within their rights to not like it, but no creator should EVER be forced or pressured into changing the product of their imagination to suit someone else’s politics.

    Ever.

    • Suicidemaniac

      It’s funny because in-universe, even if we did have female marines they would look pretty much identical to male ones, considering marines are nothing more than giant, insect-like flesh golems under all that armour and I can’t imagine they’d keep any distinct female features like breasts, since it contributes nothing to the combat effectiveness of said marine (and would probably hinder them, not to mention extra resources committed to making slightly adjusted armour for the females), and would likely get cut off.

      So I mean at the end of the day, if someone is DESPERATE for female marines, just stick some dark eldar heads onto marine models.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        I would want something more like a female shotputter, or hammer thrower.

        Elf faces are too sleak.

      • Majere613

        That’s part of the problem, isn’t it? I know many people who refuse, quite sensibly, to model Marines without helmets on because taking your helmet off in a warzone is dumb. But if we also don’t have Sororitas-style ‘boob armour’, what do we do to a Marine to make it look ‘female’? Make it a bit smaller? Would a female Marine even be any smaller? I have no idea!
        So we could, in theory, just have GW say “yeah, so due to Cawl’s advances some Marines are now women, but the gene-therapy makes them the same size as a male Marine. Any helmeted Marine may well be female”
        Would that be enough to make people feel represented?

  • Brian M. Galloway

    you all have the adeptus sororitas. Not to mention the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and who’s to say what the hell a Tau is under that battle suit..? Why not just simply enjoy the hobby with the models available instead of bitching and whining about something you’re never going to be able to change. I am not one to degrade nor disencourage anyone from enjoying the 40K Hobby, and I often invite people to do so, But if you are trying to find equality in gaming stick to your damn video games. It is unfortunate that you have not met individuals like me when you are trying to introduce yourself to this Hobby. And what about role playing? You can play a woman in the Warhammer 40,000 role playing games all day long until Doomsday.

    • Drpx

      Female Tau have the Y-face slit.

  • Inco Gnito

    I find it a bit unfair to call someone biggoted because they find it not right that the lore they fell in love with, is going to be changed to cater to a wider target audience.
    I fully agree with the statement that the community should keep an open mind about including more diverse groups of people.
    I fully disagree with the statement that the narrative should be adopted not to insult anyone. Someone please remind me again what grim dark means?
    –To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. Except sexism… THAT we can not tolerate.–
    I want to point out, that I do NOT want to exclude anyone from the hobby.

  • Rob brown

    For the record i can’t speak as to whether or not harassment of women happens in game stores. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out it has happened and I feel it shouldn’t be tolerated.

    However, I think it’s a pretty dangerous step when we start telling artists (and I consider miniature designers, writers and illustrators artists) what their art ‘should’ look like. If someone wants to come up with a great concept art or miniature design that takes into account gender or racial diversity that will appeal and fit within the 40k universe then they should do that. However telling existing artists to change their style (female spacemarines for instance) to confirm to an ideology first and forcing them to come up with the concepts seems wrong.

    Role models rather than ideology would seem to be the best way to change any hobby. In my honest opinion.

    On a side note the sisters of battle models being criticised in the article are very old and not particularly relevant to the modern game. I wouldn’t say Greyfax is particularly sexualised, aside from having breasts.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Greyfax was pointed out by GW as an example of consciously designed diversity.

      Its not great, but its an interesting start. Good character, a bit standard sexy, but there’s room for that.

      I kinda want to see some chubby evil blight queens.

  • Inco Gnito

    I find 40K feminists meanspirited and toxic…
    who should I complain to ?

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      examples?

      • Majere613

        “Why change our precious hobby, then? Ask the frothing, furious fans who spend the better half of their day finding ways to harass other fans who also want to make small plastic soldiers kill each other. Why not find another hobby and let mine stagnate in peace?”

        Does that not read as more than a little mean-spirited to you?

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          I think we can agree with do at times have frothing furious fans. Look at the death of fantasy.

          They did not say that all fans are, or direct it at anyone directly.

          As it comes down to personal experience, we must trust that they have encountered harassment, in the same way we can trust you if you were to say that you haven’t.

          • Inco Gnito

            No, sorry, cannot agree with your statement.
            It is hurtful towards my kind of people.
            As such I demand your comment to be banned!

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            What is your kind of people?

          • Inco Gnito

            What is this? You do not even know of my kind of people?
            What kind of a ill-informed monster are you?
            My scanners indicate a rise in toxicity from your general vascinity !
            You should be banned because you do not know my cause nor my people.
            How ignorant of you.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I am afraid I do not.

            What is your kind of people?

          • Inco Gnito

            Well, my darling, this is something that you have to figure out yourself, or otherwise you would not learn anything from your ignorant ways.
            Have I mentioned that your statements are toxic, you are being very mean towards me and hurt my feelings and I believe you should be banned for life from the internet for hurting my feelings?

          • Majere613

            That’s not the point, though. The whole tone of this piece is that anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their point of view is some sort of neanderthal:
            “the reactionary views of loud, stubborn dinosaurs are truly ruining the experience, as much as they claim to be the victim.”

            See, I happen to like the Sororitas models. They’re meant to be baroque and fantastical, and obviously female to satisfy the Decree Passive. But according to these people, that makes me some sort of evil lunatic who hates women. Of course I also have about £300 worth of them which I’d rather like to still be allowed to use, thanks very much.

            “The vitriolic reaction to this – asking others to treat each other fairly – is both astonishing and frustratingly common.” – only, what constitutes ‘treating others fairly’ is apparently decided only by them. An all female army isn’t enough, because the shape of the armour is ‘wrong’. Female characters in the books aren’t enough, because they say and/or do ‘problematic’ things. It’s a pervasive attitude that’s deeply counter-productive, since most sane gamers would be perfectly happy to see female Guard models in standard Cadian armour, for example, but rather than shoot for something simple and uncontroversial like that, they go for demanding retcons that are bound to get people’s backs up.

            BTW, the other guy is clearly trolling you now by parroting the usual language back at you 🙂

          • Inco Gnito

            I second this post.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Do you feel that statement is aimed at you. Are you a loud, stubborn dinosaur?

            If not, it doesn’t apply.

            We would need to find someone who is like that and ask them.

            Where does it say that liking Soritas models make you an ‘evil lunatic who hates women’?

            Again, where do they state that ‘treating each other fairly’ is in regards to the lack of more than one exclusively female army. It could be in regards to personal interactions, or any number of things.

          • Majere613

            I’m beginning to wonder if you’re actually trolling as well- in which case well played, because I totally didn’t spot it. Here’s the passage again:
            “Take Adepta Sororitas armour. It emphasises the female figure to a sexualised level – not very glaring on its own, but alongside nearly-naked repentant fanatics, a long-running mistreatment in both in-game lore and GW codexes, and lack of relatively cheap and updated armies, it’s hard for women, or indeed anyone keen on having female models, to not take that as a statement that GW just doesn’t care much for its female player base. The matter of variety in ethnicity of models also turns away minorities who prefer to be represented by more than cultural stereotypes born of the comic books and action movies of the 80’s.

            Why change our precious hobby, then? Ask the frothing, furious fans who spend the better half of their day finding ways to harass other fans who also want to make small plastic soldiers kill each other. Why not find another hobby and let mine stagnate in peace?”

            Paragraph 1: The proposition is set out that Sororitas armour is inherently sexist and that the faction is ‘problematic’.

            Paragraph 2: The proposition is set out that people who do not agree that changes are needed are ‘frothing and furious’.

            If the piece wasn’t intended to make that implication, the person who wrote it desperately needs to hire an editor.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            P1: If you read the full para, you will see that it is the armour within the context of other design decisions that they believe GW does not care for its female players.

            This is not absolutely calling them sexist, but close.

            What do you think about the armour in context to the other things?

          • Majere613

            The context makes narrative sense. The Sororitas are a religious martial order, and historically such orders have tended to accrue enemies, such as the Knights Templar or the Knights of St. John. Religious orders tend to live in seclusion and therefore have food supplies and valuables and access to little help, so they tend to get raided, much like churches and monasteries in the UK got raided by the Vikings in the Dark Ages.
            Yes, they get badly treated by the Grey Knights (though the whole thing about their armour being anointed in Sororitas blood isn’t all that explored so we don’t know how it works) but then so does everyone else- ask the Guard regiments on Armageddon, for example.

            The ‘naked fanatics’ thing, which I presume is a reference to the Repentia, comes from the same tradition as Fantasy Flagellants and is again a historical riff- and similar practices of self-purgation through suffering can be seen in many religions. I’ve never quite seen the argument that the Repentia models are overtly sexualised- you can barely tell what’s under all the seals and robes.

            As with most of this stuff, if someone wants to build a case that it’s all part of some ‘problematic’ attitude then they can find enough ammo to do it, but it involves reading everything through at best a specific, and at worst a highly distorted, lens.

          • Wulfen73

            The armor fits the gothic 80’s sci-fi tone of the game that is kind of anachronistic at this point

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Ok, and in the context of the nearly naked fanatics and general lack on non sexualised women models?

          • Wulfen73

            So you aren’t really sure what I mean by 80’s sci-fi tone then?

            It’s okay to ask when you don’t understand my terming, I am an old man

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I am an old man too, well approaching my mid 50s.

            I was there near the start. Still got some of the old gobbos.

          • Wulfen73

            Then how do you not know what 80’s sci fi was like?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            It was cool, but also sexist mess. The amount of sexual assault in fantasy lit at the time was really too much.

          • Wulfen73

            Watch Heavy Metal, you’ll get it

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Sooo, that film is a bit sexist yeah?

          • Wulfen73

            Watch it first, then you tell me, it is very much a product of the age

          • Nathan Hostetler

            The implication, and the rhetorical tactic, is that anyone who doesn’t agree with their exact stance is indeed a loud, stubborn dinosaur. It’s a statement made in bad faith, because it doesn’t address any kind of dissenting argument or speak to fact; it just paints anyone not in their group with the same, nefarious brush.

            THAT is the problem that many of us have with these kinds of politically and ideologically motivated people – they are the real bullies. The only thing they truly want is ideological purity, and their main method of obtaining that is to rigidly police the borders of their in-group, enforcing a prescribed viewpoint and using allegations and insults to shut out dissenting voices. Not just the dissenting voices of white males, but ESPECIALLY the dissenting voices of the very minorities they claim to speak for. They simply can not be challenged by people who they only keep around for political tokenism and the moral justification of their arguments.

            This is not a new argument, nor is it unique to 40k. Don’t even pretend that you believe it is.

          • Inco Gnito

            TROLLING????
            How dare you, sir !
            Is this the reward I get for supporting your well versed opinion?
            Et tu brute?

  • Nathan Hostetler

    Plastic Sisters: yes
    A better mix of female models: yes
    Better representation for females and minorities: yes
    Being respectful towards females and minorities: yes
    Marxian Identity Politics in 40k: no.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      female spacemarines: yes.

      • Nathan Hostetler

        No.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          Don’t bring identity politics into it.

          We want a better mix of female models.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Which is a great idea, except when it comes to a faction that represents a hyper-masculine trope of martial space monks. Unless those females are so pumped full of testosterone that they are indistinguishable from their male counterparts and referred to as “brother”, that is.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            You’re bringing identity politics into it.

            It is possible to make hyper masculine marital space monk women models.

            Masculine is a societal trait, not a biological one.

          • Lion El’ Jonson

            Do you realize exactly how low a chance a female would have to ever even survive the trials of just being picked to become an aspirant, let alone being able to take all the implantation’s required to become an Astartes. I’d take a good guess it would be too astronomically low to ever justify having 2 to 3 female head sculpts per box for marines.

          • Majere613

            I’m genuinely curious, though I’ve made this point somewhere else- assuming they had helmets, how would you suggest changing a Marine model to look like a woman, without showing any primary or secondary sexual characteristics?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Hips are important, women have slightly different skeletons, their walks and poses are different. This is important when animating, but somewhat important with static sculpts.

            A range of authentic female faces: Buzzcuts, scars, hard chins and genetic murder angels.

            Named Characters in the fluff with well written gubbins.

            Done.

            Maybe some cool shoulder pads.

            Keep the dudes, and some angry ladies.

          • Bestee

            Sorry to be that guy here. But a question comes to mind. I am not directly against the concept of retcons and what not, but why female space marines? For a long time the Space Marines have been the flagship models in terms of biggest money makers for GW. Back in Warhammer Fantasy I seem to recall the income from space marines alone heavily outweighed the entire WHFantasy range. Is SM really the thing we want to change first?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Spacemarines are knights in space, and the poster boys of GW.

            They have big cardboard cutouts of the chaps.

            But most importantly, some people would find them cool.

          • Bestee

            Yes I agree that there will be some people would find them cool (but I honestly think the majority of people do not care that they cannot create female SM the overtly male characturistics of the SM silloute is pretty much their identity – With the patriarchs and all).

            But do you really think the market for them would be that highly sought after? I am not knocking you here I just do not share that optimism in this regards. As well as being rather aware of people who have spent a lot time loving the lore weaved over the past 20 years.

            I think by the looks of it there is more demand for female imp guard upgrade kits and it helps tick all the check boxes on both sides of the debate right?

            Also there is nothing stopping conversions too no one will turn a player away for lore breakages in a game.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I think compared to the minimal range at the moment yes. Look at other companies like MTG, Privateer Press or Blizzard with a more diverse fanbase, and more diverse range of characters.

            Female guard is a perfect step.

            But female spacemarines would be just as cool. It just seems to hurt some people feelings.

          • Bestee

            Yes people have varying soft spots for this game we all love. We cannot blame or belittle those who disagree. Same way as I think its fair for feminists and PETA to raise issues with a brand peacefully. I support them in them voicing their opinions but I do not agree with their ideologies.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            The general statement goes, you can still enjoy or love a product or media while recognise its flaws.

            Same way I support GW though its pretty rubbish when it comes to representation or balanced rules.

          • Bestee

            Here here to the balanced rules comment 🙂

            Can I ask you a fairly personal question? (No tricks or anything like that coming)
            What do you think is so important about representation within GW’s various universes? Is it mainly to gain a larger audience?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I am not concerned with a larger audience, I am more interested in a more diverse audience of fans.

            With a more diverse audience we get to play different types of people with different types of ways of playing, painting and socialising. The hobby is vastly improved.

            We also can make the hobbyist who already play ( that feel underrepresented) feel more so, so they feel as well represented as us.

            though I’d personally like a few more black models, some Caribbean guys. Unless they are all bob marley weed smoking idiots. Thats just annoying.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            I think x and y chromosomes disagree with you, but I knew that this would come down to social constructivism and post-modernism, because those are the cornerstones of the Marxian political ideology I mentioned earlier.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            What do chromosomes have to do with masculinity.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Now just what could genetics and biological sex have to do with gender differentiation? Hmm, I wonder…

  • David Brechin

    Though I agree with most of what was said and women are underrepresented in 40k generally, i’d like to point out that the whole female space marine issue is kinda ridiculous and has an entirely logical and justifiable reasoning in the backstory. You dont make super soldiers that can breed, they’d replace you, not protect you. (Plus it’s all sci-fi rip-off nonsense anyway, who really cares?)

    • Suicidemaniac

      Yeah but my representation! I’m Asian, so according to this article I should be horrendously turned off at the lack of Asian representation in this hobby and not their sky-high prices! This is 2017 people!

  • Zirkah

    People shouldn’t be nasty to women, agreed.

    Feminist40k claims to speak for women interested in the hobby (i’m dubious of the claim).

    “minorities who prefer to be represented by more than cultural stereotypes born of the comic books and action movies of the 80’s…”

    I didn’t realize I was looking for a way to represent myself through my Tyranid army… this explains so much

  • Marco Marantz

    And I thought this site was a SJW-free space 🙁

    • georgelabour

      If there’s one things cultists are good at its worming their way into any palce that gives them more wealth and control over those they look down on.

      So I guess 40k is a lot like real life in that respect.

  • Lion El’ Jonson

    Cause when I think of gene enhanced monastic space knights, I think of females. The fact is Space Marines were never tailored to ever be female inclusive. They are an army of celibate roided up crusader knights that are all about brotherhood.

    Hell an overwhelming majority of males in the Imperium aren’t even FIT enough to survive the challenges of just being picked to be be a Space marine, and of those few that DO survive, their bodies might not even be able to take all the Space marine implantation.

    And from a canon sense it doesn’t make sense, cause the Emperor already laughed at it when Malcador brought up the idea of a female primarch.

  • Paul Wesley Pratt

    Play another game… question mark?

    Warhammer is a game where the best life you can hope for is not being
    murdered by your overlords to be recycled into food.

    But they want minority representation?

    It is equal treatment for all under the basis that you may be born, you may
    live, but you “will most certainly die under the most brutal regime to
    ever be known.”

    They talk about boob armor, a product from the 80s, for a faction, that, for
    all intents and purposes, DOESN’T EXIST.

    Paint your gray figures all the colors of the rainbow if you want.

    The game is made by white men in a country of white people whose primary
    demographic is white men. Go figure. I wonder why they spent decades making
    white people fantasy island.

    But they ARE putting new things into the pipeline, tell you more is coming for sure,
    but their answer… COMPLAIN. Feminism, right?

    These toxic underbelly places are the basements that these people drove us
    into during the entire existence of being a nerd up until… what ten years ago
    maybe when geek became “cool?”

    People were protective of these spaces because its a “safe space”
    where like minded people went to not be judged for enjoying the opportunity to
    hobby and play with, what essentially amounts to, the highway robbery of toys.

    I’m a straight white man and i feel uncomfortable in those places. I even
    used to work in one.That doesn’t mean they aren’t in human, to be forced into
    the light to be “reconditioned.” They are just socially awkward
    sometimes. And i think this is even a radicalization of the stereotype. Most of
    the guys i knew that played warhammer were working blue and white collar,
    educated professionals. Most were married, in serious relationships, or
    divorced.

    Just be nice to them, be the opposite of what those people went into
    hiding for during the 80s. They probably fear you more than you fear them.

    You want to talk about a toxic underbelly of the Games Workshop community? Its
    the death altar that these people have laid the phrase “apply
    salt” to for every whisper that comes out of the bum of anyone
    claiming to know an insider at GW… who eventually turns out to be a buddy of
    a store manager.

    We should all bring the torches to websites like this that propagate
    that.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Do you have a significant other?

      Have you asked her/him what they think of the female models in the game, or what they would think would be cool?

  • David Ortiz

    LOL

  • PrimoFederalist

    Now we have to politicize 40K? By the Throne, you people are the absolute worst.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Its always been political.

      • Wulfen73

        no, it’s a game that poked fun at politics

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          soooo, that’s being political.

          • Wulfen73

            Politics requires an advocacy of some kind, mocking Margret Thatcher and the religious right is not advocacy

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            One can advocate politics by maintaining a status quo.

            If GW had kept its kinda dodgy racial stuff from the 80s, it would be still be advocating a certain politics

          • Wulfen73

            *Facepalm* No, no it wouldn’t, it is not advocating anything, you are drawing a message from it, that’s not advocacy

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            By creating more female models, would GW be advocating politics?

          • Wulfen73

            Nope

      • Drpx

        Vote Labor or Armageddon falls to the Orks!

  • Zirkah

    I don’t see any obese bearded 40k miniatures, I don’t think 40k’s target audience has enough representation.

    What about left-handed marines, massively underrepresented

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      dwarfs, ogres, nurgle (think they are all clean shaven), some of the old orks with hair ( I miss them),

      These are all powerful characters that are not let down by their chubbyness or their unkempt faces.

      • Zirkah

        I’m poking fun at the idea of ‘representation’ as I don’t go into playing in the GrimDark looking for personal representation.

        I don’t feel represented by Tyranids, I am representing elements of the lore through my Tyranid army

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          This is interesting, could you give me an example of tyranid lore that helps you feel included in the hobby?

          • Wulfen73

            The eating everything in sight part for me, oh yeah and the scythe bladed arms

          • Zirkah

            I think you have it backwards, my interest in Tyranid lore is how I am included in the hobby. It is how I participate in the hobby.

            My interest or preference for Tyranids is as idiosyncratic as my taste or distaste for peanut & butter and jelly, bread crust, sliced diagonal (or not) and perhaps equally unexplainable.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Ahh ok, yeah.

  • Rob brown

    I think it’s very easy for keyboard warriors to criticise whether within or external to the hobby. A better route is to come up with a cool concept and pitch it to the audience that would buy it.

    For instance the relaunched dark eldar with the kabalite warriors that were 50% female were awesome models, beautifully designed, with great concept art, good fluff and remain some of the best looking models in he range. I know I bought tons of them!

    If people want more representation they need to come up with the next equivalent, rather than change existing concepts that are pretty well established. Create new work rather than criticise the old.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Should we also apply this to all wishlisting and asking for new rules, models, races etc.

      • Wulfen73

        We did, where do you think Privateer Press came from?

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          oh god, warhammer forums and pages are a blessing compared to warmachine fans.

          Oddly though PP has pretty good female representation, and is successful.

          • Wulfen73

            And yet has around the same amount of female players, funny that

      • Rob brown

        Off topic but yes we’d have a far happier community if criticisms were creative and constructive – rather than negative.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          When this group asks for more diversity. This constructive,as its asking for more creation.

          • Rob brown

            No it isn’t constructive because it isn’t suggesting what or how the hobby could add diversity. It is just saying the hobby isn’t providing that. The writer should tell us some ideas for the next gender/ethnically diverse faction/character/world. That would be constructive.

            Constructive would be “GW please could we have some female heads and torsos to represent female guard” like the many described in the Gaunts Ghosts black library books.

          • Wulfen73

            Or how about not just hurling millions of people under the bus for perceived disagreement

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            They are directly asking GW to provide more diverse models.

            We also respectfully suggest that Games Workshop could do more to help encourage this. It would be a positive change to see better, NON-SEXUALISED representation of female soldiers in 40k’s model range.

            bit from their mission statement.

          • Wulfen73

            That still is not a useful statement “More diverse models”

            Okay, like what, what specifically, rather than an extremely nebulous statement do you want.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Ok, so if you follow through the link in the article. the next line is

            “For example, there are countless female soldiers in the Astra Militarum, and yet where are the models? It is also very widely agreed that the Sisters of Battle range should be more accessible.”

          • Wulfen73

            Which I have agreed with several times on this page. As for where are the models? they are on the web order, under the tanith line

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            So they are calling for more of those and more diverse ones, that’s constructive.

          • Wulfen73

            no they aren’t they are demanding more “diverse” which is quite vague, I suspect on purpose

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            What is the difference between demanding and calling for.

            They also provide explicit examples.

          • Wulfen73

            tone

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            That seems pretty ambiguous for someone saying ‘diverse’ is pretty ambiguous.

          • Wiqid Mopho

            You missed out the “constructive part” from their mission statement, that more or less hosts a myriad of insults, directed at anyone with a smidgen of an opposing view or objection. Just like the article above.

    • Bestee

      I really like this comment, Well said. The majority have no issue with new IPs and things which still make sense within the large amount of lore. Anyone who cries sexism over the lack of female spacemarines are simply not being honest.

      The reason the community was so split on the primaris marines was they just didn’t really make a great deal of sense in the story. It was not because of any deep seated prejudice.

    • HydraGC

      Awesome

  • I’m not convinced that the 40K “community” is the problem.
    How do I know the author isn’t the problem.
    You can paint your models any way you like, no one is stopping you.
    Was some one, at some shop, mean to you.? Don’t go back, vote with your money. Don’t like the 40K lore. Can’t help you there but you and your friends can do what ever you want. I’m not going to tell you what to do with your miniatures.
    so it’s not really my problem, I’m not obligated to play with any one I don’t care to. If I think they will suck the fun out of a game or I just don’t like them, we’re probably not going to play.
    I don’t care what GW decides to make as far as new models go.

  • jobo debois

    Seriously, what do you gain from shilling like this? Are you trying to protect yourself in these times of pointless change by flying whatever flag you think is winning? Is every writer on every type of news site actually some sort of tumblr feminist? Stop pretending that this stuff means anything. It’s embarrassing. So many arguments of “Representation and welcoming minorities and females and disabled people.” Do whatever you want with YOUR models, but stop talking down to the fandom.

  • Zirkah

    Perhaps your army is not there to represent you, perhaps it is there to represent elements of the lore.

    • Wulfen73

      Impossibru! How would I then, a man with long incisors, a freakish amount of body hair, and a general viking disposition, choose an army?

      • Bestee

        Dont worry Wulfen, I will be an ally for you buddy

        • Wulfen73

          You are truely my Bestee

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      It does represent white guys from Nottingham pretty well though.

      • Wulfen73

        Oddly enough white guys from Nottingham put their money time and effort into building, managing, and creating product for the last 30 years too. Odd how that worked out

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          yeah I know!

          Now there are loads of women and other diverse lads working there! Probably should include some more diverse models then.

          • Wulfen73

            Are you implying there is only white guys in Warhammer?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I am implying that there is minimal diverse representation of women in GW models, lacking bodytype, age and character.

          • Wulfen73

            There is no bodytype variance for men either, note how guardsmen are the same general build as a space marine.

            I am really not sure how you would go about making a variety of body or age differences show up on models through the armor, I mean, we are talking about 25mm scale models here, most of whom are wearing full body armor or at the least tactical vests.

            And even if you could, can you make it not cost a fortune and will the detail even remain after painting.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            We have old spacemarines and guard with incredible power, wisened captains of the empire (now freeguild) and positively ancient toads.

            We don’t have many cool old ladies.

            We have powerful chubby ogres, or corpulent blightkings using their weight as power

            Not many fat women models though.

            Don’t think there are many baby models, maybe cherubs? Are they human or mech?

          • Wulfen73

            So… you want fat old ladies bearing arms?

            There is very few fat models at all, its not exactly an advantage if you aren’t a supernatural being or goblin chowing down on troll flesh

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Their are 3 whole ranges representing fat blokes in fantasy. Ogres, dwarfs and nurgle.

            Less in 40k, but the new death guard are chubby.

            The idea is that, fat female players exist. Skinny female players exist. All types of players that might think fat female minis would be cool exist.

            It would be good to see a few of them.

          • Wulfen73

            What in the world are you talking about? They aren’t “representing” 2 of them are fantasy races basically lifted from LotR and Nurgle isn’t fat they are bloated like corpses.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            They are all cool, powerful, non sexualised (some dwarfs are sexy) characters.

            I’m a fat bloke. I can see myself in them.

            If all bloke models were handsome lithe elvish cuties with lovely codpieces, I probably wouldn’t be as interested.

          • Wulfen73

            So… this is a perception vs reality thing, you feel attached to the ones who happen to be plump and beardy

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I feel I am represented, thats all. Its not a big thing.

            The world feels more real, because there are people/characters that share my experience in a warhammer flavoured universe.

      • Zirkah

        I mean, British folks aren’t my favorite, but likening them to bugs takes it a bit to far.

        To all yee destined for Hive Fleet Leviathan’s maw

  • Zirkah

    If I were to think of an army that ‘represented me’ it would not have to do with those things which I had no part in shaping, (my ethnicity or gender), it would pertain to the values I choose.

    I am Alpharius

  • Inco Gnito

    This is awesome ! Finally we get rid of all these gender biased armies! I too have a few opinions how we can make the game more diverse and finally stomp the s*#t out of the damn patriachy!

    1) Why are Orks only depicted so overly masculine? DISCUSTING. I propose that Orks come in all varying muscle shapes. And why are they only green? Very excluding. All colours of the rainbow for Orks or I will get mad!

    2) Eldar! Only white? What gives? And why are they wearing those wide robes? Is GW trying to say that the only real female including army in 40K can only fight in robes? DISCUSTING. Show them in real military fatique and every other possible outfit as well.

    3) Dark Eldar are DISCUSTING. Their females are showing their body, because the male pigs at GW think that it is ok to objectify female models. I want butch female Eldar and fragile male Eldar. And give them more clothes… Like… how about robes? That would hide their too objectified bodies.

    4) Tyranids are depicted as monster! But they are simply a diverse group of missunderstood creatures only looking for some place to migrate to. And yet everyone treats them so badly, DISCUSTING! The galaxy needs more diversity and as such I demand that Tyranids are to be pictures as what they are: friendly neighbours needing some help!

    5) Necrons… just… DISCUSTING! Erase them !

    6) Tau are clearly just a stereotypical asian culture. How … DISCUSTING! This reducing a culture to nothing more than its stereotypes. GW better show Tau as more diverse group and not just use asian stereotypes.

    Here is a final thought:
    Why don’t we remove every single race identity displayed by the varying armies in 40K and instead play with grey genderless, ethnic-freed blobs with no distinguishable features?

    • So, Finecast? You do mean Finecast right?

    • Nyyppä

      Well, this is the most accurate description of what the SJWs are aiming at. Kudos. It’s also funny as warp. 😀

  • Randy Randalman

    There are zero players who want to keep women out of the game. There are zero players worried about female models being represented. The only thing they don’t want is forced political correctness for the sake of political correctness. The whole PC culture is the new oppression. It is the new fascism; masquerading as humanitarian efforts, it’s nothing more than an excuse to subject, demean and silence a different group of people.

    It also shouldn’t be ignored that this is a fiction universe which should represent that universe. Not our own. It shouldn’t be changed and bent just to fit a politically charged climate from reality. It isn’t interesting or engaging that way. If people are offended by fiction, they need to get out of that hobby. That’s all there is to it.

    Furthermore… THERE ARE MORE FEMALE MODELS IN GW GAMES THAN ANY OTHER. We keep buzz-wording this idea that there aren’t any, but there are more females in this game than any other. By far. Should there be more? Sure, even if it is an inaccurate representation of a theater of war; but STOP acting like females are somehow absent when there are tons of them between the systems.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      I don’t doubt that there are some seriously abhorrent and misogynistic 40k players out there, nor do I doubt that there are creeps. If there are, that needs to stop.

      You’re right, though, that this is the same old regressive culture war on a new front.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Lots of literal fascist warhammer fans in spain.

        Really quite a bit of hatred there

        • Nathan Hostetler

          So some skinheads LARPing as Francoists are now representative of the 40k community as a whole?

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Just saying that they do exist to an extent to make a community in a country (specially the northen part) toxic and unfun for some people.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Well I sympathize for non-fascist 40k players in the Northern part of Spain, and I wish that weren’t the case. However, such a group most likely constitutes a very small portion of 40k players overall, and it’s not as if the game were made for them in particular.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I have forgotten my main point with this.

            Probably something with, this is a bad site, with a horrible comment section, but its pretty tame.

            There does exist some players that really are as toxic as to make the Feminist40k group want to close their doors.

          • Wulfen73

            That’s still poor justification

          • Nathan Hostetler

            I don’t doubt that Feminist40k gets their fair share of harassment and disgusting behavior, but it is a very prominent pattern amongst groups such as theirs to totally avoid open discussion. Even when that discussion is presented in a civil and respectful manner (actually, even more so).

        • Bestee

          What would you define as “literal facist”? The way it sounds to be more of a cultural issue of the area and not the product from GW.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Actual facists, march in the streets calling for fascism kind of chaps, who use the imperial fluff to flavour their words.

            Really off putting, lived in Valencia for 4 years, and the community was pretty toxic.

            Makes the comments here look really tame.

          • Wulfen73

            Um… I think you may find what they are using is roman fluff, that is the traditional facist thing, and the Imperium uses a lot of latinish gobblygook

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Lots of burn the heretic, using the everchosen archaon stuff.

            Fine by itself, but its used a lot as dogwhistling

          • Wulfen73

            Interesting, and weird

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            It is, its very different from US and UK groups.

            I also pop to russia occasionally and its very different there too.

            I think its important to realise we really only see our small bubble of players, and shouldn’t generalise based on that.

          • Wulfen73

            Hasn’t stopped both sides of this debate from doing that at every turn

          • Bestee

            I am sorry to hear about that man does not sound good. What are their main goals? Sadly internet culture has demeaned the term “facist” for me and it now means much less than it once did.

            Are we talking Antifa levels of violence but from the far right?

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Could you give me an hypothetical example of how GW might add models that force PC for the sake of PC?

      They seem pretty good at keeping everything authentic to the universe.

    • dinodoc

      0 people oppose women joining the game? Are we looking at the same comment section?

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Got my GF to pop over my shoulder and read some of these, she only paints and reads the occasional book.

        In regards to a choice few

        ‘Yeah, they are like the guys that smell really bad at the shop’

        • Wulfen73

          A very insightful and helpful answer, thank you person identified only by your relation to the poster

        • Nathan Hostetler

          Funny – for the most part I see people trying to engage in civil discussion and providing arguments backed by reasoning, whatever the quality of that reasoning may be. I haven’t seen a single person say that women or minorities don’t belong in 40k. What I do see is a lot of people who are concerned that their hobby is being hoisted up on the altar of politics for reasons which they fear to be disingenuous and manipulative. It’s telling that you, your girlfriend, and the poster above resort to associating opinions which differ from your own with false equivalencies and insults, instead of honestly engaging in debate yourself.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            This is BOLS, Im mainly baiting people. It is not the proper forum for a decent debate. For debating to have any effect a better environment is needed than this.

            In regards to women not belonging in 40k:

            By promoting a status quo that does not make women feel included in the hobby (we have examples of some female hobbyists who feel this way from the fb page mission statement) they are supporting the idea that women are not welcome in the hobby.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            There are a couple of logical inconsistencies with that statement; chief among them being that a single FB page doesn’t represent all of women, or even all of female 40k players. I would argue that that page represents only people with a specific political alignment, and no one else. Not even women who do not share the same ideology.

            Also, almost no one is advocating for the status quo. I haven’t seen a single comment here that objects to more female models being introduced. What people are objecting to are disingenuous arguments made in bad faith, and you don’t really help your case(or prove anyone wrong) by simply adding to that particular din.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I edited out bits for brevity.

            Some women are fine with the status quo.

            That page only represent the people who it join it, and Im sure some people in there are just curious.

            They are however just fans of the hobby like us. There experiences are as legitimate as ours. They are mostly women, and they want better diversity in the model range, as well as other things.

            Loads of comments do not want female spacemarines. There are replies to me objecting to fat women or old women models. There are comments saying that what we have now is fine.

            Do you think there should be female spacemarines?

          • Nathan Hostetler

            You’re being dishonest again by presenting the fallacy that anyone who doesn’t agree with female space marines is exactly the kind of smelly, misogynistic windmill you’ve been tilting after, but I’ll bite.

            No, I don’t see the point in there being female space marines. If gender is a social construct, and there is no objective difference between the sexes, then isn’t it counter-intuitive to intentionally differentiate space marines into male and female? What is the point beyond merely the fact that it becomes a political statement when some people disagree with it? Just to use space marines to troll those who are ideologically “other” to you? That’s exactly the kind of motivation people are leery of.

            Space marines are knightly monks. Right or wrong, serious or ridiculous, they are a distillation of every trope of fraternal martial culture. Their entire identity and place in the lore is based on father/son melodrama; a narrative, by the way, which functions as the lynchpin of the entire setting. If you wanted to say that females can become space marines, and that as a result they become culturally and physiologically identical in every way to their “brothers”, I’d say that’s great. But there really isn’t a good reason to significantly alter the characteristics, culture and aesthetics of space marines.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            What fallacy is that?

            I think you’re also conflating gender and sex here.

            Its possible to have masculine men: spacemarines, he man, a dude with an axe.

            Its possible to have feminine men: eldar, me, a bloke without an axe.

            The same is true for women. Thing is, we don’t really have many masculine female models. Spacemarines would be great for that.

            Plenty people who collect some masculine ladies in 40k.

            You also seem to believe, unless I’m wrong, that adding female marines would get rid of the value of male marines, or make them less of what they are. Am I reading you right?

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Yes, adding discernibly female space marines would clearly make space marines less of what they are; a fraternal, monastic organization which is almost perfectly uniform within each chapter, and which is defined by its traditionalist martial culture. Agree with it or not, that’s what and who space marines are. I know we’re talking about fiction, but space marines are very obviously based on historical knightly orders and greco/roman legions, neither of which fielded many women. Yes, those influences hail from more oppressive and less inclusive times, but that’s kind of the point. That’s what space marines represent, not contemporary political values of egalitarianism. It’s not surprising if some people find that offensive or feel that it doesn’t represent them, because it’s not meant to represent any man or woman from “the current year”.

            Now you might say that making space marines less of that is preferable, but even you can’t argue that it’s still making them less of what they are.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            How does adding women achieve this change.

            What does it do to the male marines. They can still be monastic, they are still religious, still not shagging anyone.

            What does it to do their brothers? They are still there to be brotherly. There can still be only male chapters or stories only with male marines.

            What does it do to the uniformity of a group of space vampires/cyborgs/knights/templars/hunnic horsemen/sharkpeople. How are women any less uniform than space viking wolf dudes.

            Spacemarines represent in part angels, there are some female angels.

            Sparemarines represent warriors, there are some warrior women

            Spacemarines represent horrible fascism, plenty of women capable of doing that.

            They represent humanity fighting against their doom. Pretty sure there are a few women that could be included in that.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Actually, there are no female angels in all of Judeo/Christian scripture. Again, agree with that or not, it is what it is.

            There are definitely warrior women, and more and more different types of warrior women should be represented in 40k, but it would simply be more easily and consistently accomplished in pretty much any faction other than space marines or orks. Were there female knights, monks or legionaries? Because those are the specific types of warriors that space marines are.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers
          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            But mainly, how does adding women actively lessen the male marines value. How does it stop them being monastic. What about the male marine changes.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Nothing changes about individual male marines, it changes the entire faction thematically and aesthetically.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I’ve seen many commentators say that the female marines will look very similar to male marines if they were engineered. What about the aesthetics would change.

            How are the individual themes things you mentioned, warriors, monastic, etc actively prevented from existing.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            I said that. I said that I would be fine with female marines if they were indiscernible from male marines. However, that again begs the question of what the point is. From a modelling perspective marines are identical to each other in proportion and size, so if what you’re proposing would alter that uniformity that’s changing the aesthetic, isn’t it?

            The themes and tropes I’ve mentioned are more specific than just that space marines are “warriors”. All factions in 40k are comprised of warriors.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            The point is that the are women
            Women play the game.
            Having some women as the poster boys, heroes/anti heroes of the game would be cool.

            Spacewolfs are different to blood angels, sometimes dramatically. They are not very uniform.

            Would need: Cool masculine female marine heads, grumpy and angry murder machine ladies.

            Different hips, slightly smaller maybe. This isn’t too crucial, they are engineered after all.

            Named characters with cool decently written fluff

            some cool shoulder pads maybe

            Thats all. Done female marines.

          • dinodoc

            Emperor. save us. GW isn’t going to do Female Space Marines. You just have to accept that. Go for the things you actually have a chance of getting like plastic Sisters.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            We have female stormcast. That’s pretty much female marines.

            So you never know.

          • dinodoc

            Technically Necron bro-tier Space Marines with a dash of Rubric thrown in

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            It might be an interesting way to measure the success of female marines. In a few years, we will have to see if we have more female stormcast players and whether they bring more players in.

            On twitter and Instagram I’ve seen more women playing AoS than 40k, but that’s not representative of anything.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Stormcast are salvation bringing, autonomous liberation forces. Space marines are highly regimented and closed-off fraternal orders that don’t care about anything except their current mission. Space marines and Stormcast are not the same thing because they’re both wearing chunky armor, they’re thematically very different. It can make perfect sense for one to have obviously female members and the other to not.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            they are pretty samey.

            They still support a god emperor and are a monastic brotherly warrior army.

            Dogmatic, and inhumane, just maybe not as grimmdark

    • The14th

      Yeah, but I think you missed the part where they didn’t want nearly naked women or sexualized boobyplated armor. Which describes most of the female models in the game. God forbid we have a few female soldiers that resemble an actual female soldier.

      • Drpx

        Showing female bodies is misogynistic. We need to hide them like they do in Saudi Arabia.

  • Lyca Atteneder

    Well… I don’t know. Where I live there are allready women playing and enjoying AoS and 40k which is quite nice imho. Also there’s no harassing minorities in any way… of course I have no clue how it’s like anywhere else.
    And a word on ‘oversexed’ miniatures: I heard the line ‘I want to paint hot chicks’ pretty much as often from the female players we have around.

    But then again… maybe Austria IS different ^^

    • Wulfen73

      Perhaps your issue has been…. terminated

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        This whole comment section was worth that

    • frank

      haha I don’t know what things are like in Australia but from the sounds of it you guys have a crazy country were entertainment doesn’t have to revolve around what gender your toys are… as an american i can say shame on you. bet you don’t take personal offense to everything you claim to love either? what a backwards land you live in my friend.
      seriously their are some big issues in this country with race and sex but we don’t have to deal with but those things as long as we can focus our cultural outrage on toys.

      • Lyca Atteneder

        Hihi… yep we live in the mountains, and like it up here. As a small little country in the middle of nowhere changes take their dear time to reach us.
        Well it’s not like we don’t have the same gender stuff going on but interestingly enough: our hobby is being spared (until now that is)

        • frank

          the internet does help bring us all closer together in the worst ways possible sometimes haha.

          • Lyca Atteneder

            so true
            hihihi

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      I guess if there were people harrassing women, you wouldn’t have women there for long to talk about it.

      • Lyca Atteneder

        Ok to be honest: it happened once. The guy got slapped in the face by the girl and kicked out by the owner of the shop.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          Good shop managers/shop owners are really important for clamping down on behaviours like that.

          Same for people that make children or new players feel unwelcome as well. should be booted.

          • Lyca Atteneder

            Most definitely.
            New players are allways welcome, no matter the age, gender or whatever… as long as they behave correctly everything is perfect.

        • Drpx

          But was there a Twitter campaign? If not, that girl might as well be wearing a burka.

  • ILikeToColourRed

    I tend to forget issues exist until i read things like this,
    and by this i mean the comment section…

    • Nathan Hostetler

      You mean issues like the fact that people don’t always think exactly the way you do?

  • Austin Kennedy
  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    far too sexy

  • Austin Kennedy
  • LordKrungharr

    As far as the female Sororitas (and Sisters of Silence) armor goes , it would be difficult to recognize beings as female humans without the boob and hip curves on a 28mm scale.

    Why no female Astartes? Fluff for some reason hasn’t gotten there. They should have by now though. Especially with chapters recruiting from planet populations which must
    certainly be dwindling of males after the constant strife of M41. Of course the models may not even be representable as female aside from a head with “girl hair”. I figure full power or terminator armor would in reality obscure much of the feminine form but then again how do we recognize females on a small scale model?

    As far as being a jerk to anyone because of gender, it’s up to the rest of us to correct the jerks and welcome our women to the fold like any one of us would like to be welcomed!

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    Generally its that most of the female models are sexualised and some are done so needlessly. Example might be sisters with boobplates as they are fighting warriror nuns, don’t really need attention drawn to their tats. I think Sisters have a strong design, but with no alternative they are basically the standard represenation of women in 40k.

    Its not that sexy is bad, rather that having all sexy is boring and off putting.

    Deamonettes are fine because they are true to their character. Sexy, evil beings that are all about it.

    Imagine the reverse.

    Most male models are lithe oiled 18 year olds, with lovely codpieces and great hair.

    You maybe get one guy that maybe doesn’t have any abs a year,and he still has a lovely codpiece.

    Probably gonna feel a bit off putting.

    More sexy, but also, more not sexy is needed.

    • Sage

      I think you’re exaggerating how sexualised Sisters of Battle are. Yes the plate draws attention to the female form and it has very clear BDSM undertones but that is consistent with the theme behind the army. You are talking about nuns with guns who brutally go out and crush the enemies of the God Emperor with contempt. I would be shocked if the armor didn’t have a slight dominatrix undertone given that is the premise for the army. Plus such undertones are far from exceptional when depicting powerful women in sci-fi or fantasy. Wonder Woman being the classic example. Basically it’s so normalised that most men don’t consider it that sexualised and consider it entirely consistent with the grim dark. You’re saying it’s essentially bikini babes in space and yet that’s a simplification. You can integrate sexiness into the world without it appearing inappropraiare or breaking immersion. The example of oiled marines with cod pieces is an extreme counter example although if you have read Fulgrim….

      Oh yeah it would be nice if there was more female models that are simply following the aesthetic of the army. Guard, Tau, marines, admec. In the case of Tau it actually has been done since you get the female heads in fire warrior box. I think you need to remember Cadian and Catachan range is very old, think over 15 years now. If they did say Valhallans in plastic or legion then I could see them having more leeway to make female guardsmen. The greatcoat would make that a lot easier IMO. Admec probably mixed gender but you can’t tell. 😉

      It would require a massive retcon to allow female marines. As far as I can infer the Emperor chose to only make male Primarches and the gene seed is their cloned genetic material and is intrinsically linked with male puberty in the process of creation. Basically the Emperor would have to have made a female Primarch and tinkered with the geneseeed process. If he could simply put say Russ gene seed into some of the battle maidens on Fenris then I don’t see why that would not have happened. Yes there have been retcons but the lore is a lot more crystalised now than it was and it would retconning arguably one of the most important aspects of the lore; the Primarches. If they wanted to have somebody refine the process they had the chance to do that with the Primaris marines to say , let people put the gene seed of the male Primarches in women. They chosenot to do that. My guess is that GW feels it cannot retcon all the Primarches being male and no female marines. With the same assumption that it would probably be seen as going too far to suggest that Belisarius could do what the Emperor could not and essentially double the pool of recruits by allowing gene seed to be implanted into woman.

      The Slannesh example I use because I would hate if they did the same thing with Sisters. Where I have wanted them to make a plastic army of them for years and they put out these ghastly models that look nothing like what got me interested in the army. The point is that they are meant to be half alluringly beautiful woman and half daemon; not uglier than blood letters. Iam not opposed to other female models appearing elsewhere, but I don’t like the notion that SoB are the faction that needs to change and are the focus of this debate.

  • Austin Kennedy

    I guess BOLS can’t wait for Games Workshop can’t wait to end up like the NFL and Marvel Comics bleeding money.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Or be doing well like Privateer press, MTG and Blizzard.

      • Austin Kennedy

        Blizzard ignored their feminist critics (except Overwatch to a small extent). MTG and Privateer Press are still under the radar.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          MTG had a big uproar about diversity recently. Has a trans character and everything.

          PP has had the same, to a lesser degree. Lots of women in that game.

          Overwatch has a female spacemarine, 2 if you count Pharah.

          Edit: I always get those characters mixed up. Im probably just a racist.

    • frank

      Marvel is bleeding for sure but the NFL? ESPN’s ratings are down the NFL is not hurting. sounds like someones agenda is showing?

  • Guillermo Cordido

    those feminists knows nothing about 40k.

    • dinodoc

      Do you? Given their history in the books and games, what is the lore based reason to argue against mixed IG regiments?

      • Drpx

        Same as the ones in real life. Marines, though could totally work since they’re brainwashed and artificially enhanced with techno magic.

        • dinodoc

          And yet they perform just fine in 40K lore. You remember that right? The thing you were claiming to defend.

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    This has been a very enjoyable comment section. Wonderful even.

  • Austin Kennedy

    BOLS is deleting comments.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      seems to be, Maybe they are trying for 666

    • Jabberwokk

      I saw that as well. One of the posters linked an Arch Wargaming video and was deleted before I could respond. Seems like the Wargaming ‘journalists’ are in on it as well.

      • Apocryphus

        That’s a fantastic and relevant video too.

        • Reptilius

          rhththyht

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          but his voice

      • Wiqid Mopho

        Yea I watched the video. It’s funny how the admins willfully slander him, and refuse to engage in any dialogue when he invited them to have a discussion. Diversity and tolerance is only a privilege extended to the right people. The irony.

    • Drpx

      The Inquisition is busy tonight. Stay vigilant. Watch your neighbors.

  • palaeomerus

    You’re all stupid bigots so give us $500-$1200 per army as we burn everything down to pander to people who don’t care and don’t play. Oh my, a sci-fi transhuman spanish inquisition in a collapsing dystopian monarchy with robot dead babies flying around isn’t fair and inclusive enough. We wouldn’t need to divide and wreck your hobby if you weren’t so toxic or something. Wew lad. This will end well.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      women soldiers in the guard fluff tho

    • Reptilius

      hyththythyh

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        believe in the dreams

    • Lochlin Anderson

      I looks like there is literally one dude pushing the feminist identity politics side here. Very dedicated to pushing his agenda. I imagine GW is aware of who actually buys their products. Unlike Marvel comics GW doesn’t have a big umbrella company to absorb financial losses. As people have stated. It’s a hobby. If you want female space marines, there are places you can buy female heads. If you don’t like the lack of diverse racial features on those heads, why not start a company and try to sell them? Demanding a company cater to your specific niche isn’t usually the best way to get what you want in regards to models. Most people here can see the neo-marxist agenda of taking control of everything through pc culture of shaming.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Its meeeeee

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          im also pretty right wing. wooop woop

  • Chaosrex

    In all honesty this behavior can be explained by not wanting drama.

    WHile we had our fair share of players who came with their SO and stayed the night to play, and most of the time the SO would watch a movie with the others who wer’nt playing or simply chat with other people, or most of casses just watch the game and have a laugh.

    It also happened that the So kinda got dragged there, because she wanted to be with her boyfriend, wich is normal, but the guy comes once a week to play, so he came neverless and din’t change is weekly routine.

    So she stayed there sighing, having a smug smile on her face while we where doing our thing, and simply rolling her eyes and be unpleasant.

    Everyone just kinda glossed it over like “whatever” and carried on with what we’re doing, until for some reason she starts ranting, about how long this stupid thing is gonna take before they can go home.

    While the guy politly said that it would be over soon, she still nagged like hell, until the guy kinda exploded and they started arguing, even involving other players who where nearby who tried to calm them down.

    After a few of those incidents, the shop owner made it a clear rule that if the SO of a player is, the naging type or that she has a bad impression of Hobby, she shoudl stay at home to avoid arguments like these to occure.

    So we have a few girls coming still, but not as many anymore.

    • dinodoc

      “In all honesty this behavior can be explained by not wanting drama.”

      Are we seriously looking at the same comment section? It’s full of people coming here to seek and cause drama.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        I am here to cause drama.

        • dinodoc

          See.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      Unfortunately this comment is a pretty great example of misogynistic attitudes among 40k players. It should go without saying that you shouldn’t be a jerk or make a scene, and if that’s not something you can handle then you should stay home. That goes for everyone and has nothing to do with gender, however.

  • Drpx

    Ah, crap, gamer gate finally came to tabletop wargames. Also, if the sisters are too sexualized, does that mean they’ll finally get new plastic models?

    • dinodoc

      They should have done that a decade ago. We might owe the feminists a thank you if they can force GW to finally do it.

      • Drpx

        They’ll just squat the army if they think it’s offensive.

  • Jared Jeanquart

    Nope. Nope. And Nope.

    I have absolutely zero issue with more women getting into the hobby. I have an issue with Feminists, especially intersectional internet feminists, getting anywhere near this hobby. Its the difference between christians joining the hobby and a bunch of christians demanding that the game remove all the nasty heathen gods and the un-christian violence, and if it doesn’t, they’ll call us all anti-christian jesus-haters.

    These people got their wish, they have a bunch of traffic. They got to feel like heroes taking a shot at the patriarchy. They can move on to a new cause now.

    I’m not giving this fire any more oxygen, and no one else should either. I’ve seen what these people do to communities and movements before; remember AtheismPlus?

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      soooooo, you don’t want female marines

      • Jared Jeanquart

        No. It breaks established fluff for no reason. At this point, it’s a matter of principle.

        Really, I want the people writing intersectional feminist social justice screeds about 40K to be ignored. I want it made clear that they do not speak for the fanbase, or even for the potential fanbase.

        This is a Genestealer Cult. We expunge them now before they call in the hive fleet. Or do you want to wind up like Metal, Magic, and Atheism?

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          I think atheismTM is pretty much filled with anti feminist at this point.

    • dinodoc

      So we can put you as a hard “No” on plastic SoB and mixed IG regiments?

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        Calling for mixed guard sprue is in a small way a feminist thing.

        • dinodoc

          There’s been mixed Guard in the books since at least 2003

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            mmm, actively supporting better representation of women in media.

            Some great characters in there as well.

          • dinodoc

            It’s as if some players would like to actively ignore some parts of the lore in an effort to fight the “Feminist Plague”.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I think we have learnt from feminism that women can be absolutely insane militaristic zealots, and can fit in perfectly into 40k.

          • Apocryphus

            Not sure if this comment is meant to be offensive or not.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I’m a massive supporter of feminism, but there are some absolute weirdos in here with us.

            TERFS

            say no to them. they suck

          • Apocryphus

            There’s weirdos everywhere, but good to know some people know the difference between reasonable and too far.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            See, you just made a joke and this guy is policing you.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            He’s not. Don’t get those feelings hurt by people wondering if something is offensive.

          • Jared Jeanquart

            I’m not sure if you understand the concept of irony or not. It was meant to offend those who would take offense.

          • Apocryphus

            I was confirming that the comment was, indeed, meant to be ironic. Sometimes its hard to tell on the internet.

      • Jared Jeanquart

        What? No, those are totally fine, I approve of it. This same topic was on /tg/ earlier today before I saw this at all, and I actually said exactly that; Plastic Sisters and a new Guard kit with some female torsos and heads, down with it, I’ve said it before. And some special characters that are female; we need a sprue for acolytes and rando 40K civilians/oddballs, and that should have at least 30% female bits. If this makes more women play the game, then good.

        What I reject is this intersectional feminist identity-worship nonsense. I don’t want feminism anywhere near anything I like, I’m fine with actual women who want to play the game. These people are cancer.

  • Kreoss4u

    Thank you Feminist 40K, I completely agree. The thing that amazes me about these conversations is the degree to which many fans of 40k give the weight of reality and history to the fluff. It is fiction, for God’s sake. I hope you are all this invested in the real world because we have some serious problems to fix. Unfortunately, the male sense of masculinity is often rather fragile, thus many men are easily threatened by conversations like this and tend to take questions about their privilege personally. I am male, and proudly feminist, and I see zero downsides to doing what is necessary for greater inclusion. We have many things to gain, including richer hobby and play experiences. Those of you arguing against this, tell me, honestly, what you have to loose, other than your fragile egos and having to face male privilege?

    • dinodoc

      “The thing that amazes me about these conversations is the degree to which many fans of 40k give the weight of reality and history to the fluff.”

      Because it is what attracted people to the game in the first place? There’s ways to increase representation (if that is indeed the goal) within the confines of the fluff. Mixed IG would be a great way to advance that goal and they have existed for quite awhile in the lore.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        but also female space marines.

        Used to be squats, now no longer them.

        The game changed from space lord of the rings to something different.

        Its always changing.

        • dinodoc

          The only ones arguing for Female Space Marines are trolling.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            I really would like to see female spacemarines.

            They would be cool, and I would buy lots of them.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            What would a female space marine look like, though? “A space marine, but smaller, and with long hair and full lips”? That’s the sort of transphobic sterotypical stuff I’m talking about.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            http://2.bp.blogspot.com/VjDW4hOmu0uKHbNBJVZTpyXdBK9RWNuj1K_rYZyzCb37Mk7YnckhvIUsCoEJvQKdoatX-JoNOb9ek-qcY_bdRYMUgl_7Sw0smS0Gk0xEuwnWZzA93b3yiAYyhr7sumYOtaKSGQ=s0

            There’s a pretty good comic of an inquisitor. Will of Iron.

            Pretty much a female spacemarine.

            Though I kinda feel the long hair would get too much gore in it.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            She looks exactly like a male space marine. If she put her helmet on, she’d be identical.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            yep.

            There you go. You got it!

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            So… there is already a very large line of female space marines, with options for “masculine” heads that transphobes deem male. Happy we agree.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            You said that her head was different from a male space marine.

            You need to be consistent in this.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            No, I said that if she had a helmet on, she would look like every other space marine. You say she identified as a she, and I respect that. But her long hair is the same as a space wolf’s. Admit it, you just want a miniature with full pouty lips.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            You’re being inconsistent again.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            Omg, stop trolling! You want “female” models and you say this is a good example. She don’t have a square jaw and thin lips. I’m trying to figure out what you want from me, but I think you’re just here to mess with people. Her long hair isn’t any different from Fulgrim’s and I don’t know what else you want.

  • YetAnotherFacelessMan

    I find this entire line of thinking extremely transphobic. All 40k miniatures can be whatever gender you identify them as, and if you say anything else, you are a TERF bigot and I don’t want to hear what you have to say. Honestly, saying a dwarf can’t be a woman because she has a beard or that a space marine isn’t beautiful because she has wide shoulders is just really problematic.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      I think you’re confusing sex and gender

      • YetAnotherFacelessMan

        How cisnormative of you.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          Interestingly the picture you have an as avatar, has been thought to have been influenced somewhat by Claude Cahun a trans surrealist.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            Right. I picked it because a lot of people online don’t think of me as a “real man” just because of my genitals. I find it disgusting when entitled cis women roll into a hobby and go “These ugly men have to go.” Like… what if those “manly” space marines are women? Who are you to tell them they aren’t? Why do cis women feel so entitled to tell men, both cis and trans, that they hate women because their miniatures have beards and broad shoulders? If they want to play with miniatures that are girls, just make them girls and stop saying “female” like a weird animal breeder.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            You’re kind of missing the Adam metaphor of the apple….

  • DoctorBored

    I’m amazed that the comments are so split. On one side you have people addressing the issue of toxic individuals scaring off potential players, and the other side…. are those toxic individuals, scaring off potential players.

    • Nathan Hostetler

      Translation: if you’re not a Marxist, you’re toxic.

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        its worth reading Marx. He’s nowhere near a feminist, although some ideas have come from him.

        • Nathan Hostetler

          Intersectional Feminism is based on Critical Theory, which in turn is a rebranding of the Marxian Dialectic.

          • thereturnofsuppuppers

            Neo marxism, isn’t marxism, and critical theory isn’t neo marxism. etc etc.

            Like I said. While it has origins, it has developed to be quite different.

      • DoctorBored

        Um, that’s… not what I said… But, if your prerogative is to hunt the Reds rather than tell sexist or racist individuals that their behavior is unacceptable, then… ok. You go do that.

        • Nathan Hostetler

          Yes, that is my prerogative, and no, I don’t find racist or sexist behavior acceptable. But again, you pretty much just said in your own words that there are only two ways of thought here with no room for debate, dissent or nuance on any level; your way of thought, and the one that makes you at the very least implicit in racism and sexism. The Marxian Dialectic is always so easy to spot.

          • Doc Noble

            You’re not very good at this trolling thing.

          • DoctorBored

            Yeah boss you lost me. Ok, I’m a big bad commie for expressing something that I noticed, and yes, I colored it red with my personal opinion. Good job, you caught me, woo, give yourself a cookie.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Oh, now it’s just your *opinion* that anyone who doesn’t perfectly align with you is a racist sexist, instead of fact? How gracious of you.

  • Rose Lizrova

    Why are the comments that disagree fairly with good points and polite manners are being” moderated “

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      Because cis women trample transmen and cismen daily.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      For what its worth, I’ve been banned several times, and I usually argue for the feminist perspective.

    • Drpx

      Probably hit the keyword bots. I’ve gotten comments held for moderation just for certain words or names like esjaydubyu and Anyta Snarkeesian.

      Normally, I’m a total spelling Nahtzee but this is kind of a fun loophole.

  • thereturnofsuppuppers

    Would you like to see female guardsmen?

    • ikari_kun2002

      I wouldn’t mind. If you want some now, Victoria Miniatures is good, if a little pricey.

    • lmn118

      Absolutely, and I sincerely hope GW add a few body parts in the next set to make this possible.

      My original post may seem “old boys club” or bigotted but that the fact is I treat everyone the same regardless of what they look like, their sexual preference etc. The simple truth is I don’t care, I judge individuals by their actions.

      What I don’t like is that diversity, multiculturalism, feminism whatever you want to call it tend to over compensate and forces a minority view on the majority or perhaps it gives the minority better rights or privileges. The end result being a society or culture that is even less tolerant than before.

      Feminists don’t represent women in general they represent themselves as such their world view is skewed.

  • The14th

    News flash for all the moaners and groaners here: Being more inclusive (especially to women) will make GW WAY more money than just concentrating on only their existing base. They have to grow their customer base, and if a line of non-sexualized female models will get that then none of the wailing here will matter. Arguments of tradition and personal preference are meaningless in the face of securing the future of the game.

    • lmn118

      Newsflash there is no proof at all of that and being more inclusive will not generally garner any more customers.

      Having models that meets one group of feminist ideals doesn’t mean woman will just flock to the games. The reason is most woman are not interested in playing with war dollies.

      • The14th

        Really? ‘Cus I can’t remember the last time I saw a woman in my local to paint or play. So GW has half the total population to expand into. And studies have shown women are just as likely to be gamers as men. They just don’t reveal it as much due to people like you who claim they aren’t REALLY gamers like us manly men.

        • lmn118

          You’ve just kinda proved my point by saying you’ve not really seen any.

          I have, in fact of all my sales woman make up around 1% of my customer base. Which was roughly the same as other war dolly hobbies I cater for. Bearing in mind that includes woman customers buying for the children.

          Since its an online store there is no pressure or risk of harassment.

          I never said there wasn’t lady gamers, there is. What I said is you will find that even if you a 50% split of female and male miniatures that is no guarantee that in this tiny niche market you would suddenly attract thousands of females of all age groups

          • dinodoc

            Will it hurt the player base if GW released plastic SoB?

          • lmn118

            They already have the new Celestine is not only a great miniature but a great seller. Not sure how that is relevant to anything I’ve said though.

          • dinodoc

            My argument is further up in this thread but I’ll repeat it here: “For arguments sake, let’s say it does nothing to increase the player
            base. In that case, all we’re left with is plastic SoB and more model options for IG. The players win either way.”

          • lmn118

            I agree, although again I never said anything to dispute that.

          • The14th

            There’s some post hoc ergo propter hoc If I’ve ever seen it. You can’t say women don’t wargame because they don’t play this game. It can more easily be explained by a lack of appeal. I doubt you’d have picked up the game if it was a bunch of half-naked dudes with armor that was tight and accentuated their muscles and packages

            I’m not taking your word for such a disparity of female customers. But the “no pressure or harassment” is bull since the game is played in person.

          • lmn118

            Not reading what I am writing does seem to a be a problem though.

            I never once said woman don’t wargame. A lack of appeal can also mean the majority simply don’t want to.

            The game is full of half naked dudes with armour some don’t have any armour to speak of.

            Its an online store, one of the commonly written statements on the main post and the comments section is woman don’t like visiting stores due to harassment or the fear of harassment. As an online store there is none of that as there is no human interaction.

            Whether you don’t take my word for it is irrelevant it’s a fact taken from tens of thousands of transactions over roughly a 10 year period.

          • The14th

            How the hell do you know most don’t want to? They said that crap about D&D and that turned out to be bull. And I meant replacing space marines and guard with Fabio, would you play that?

            And my point on your online shops are safe thing is this game is played in person. So if they can’t find a place to play they aren’t gonna buy anything from you. So 10 years of sales is meaningless, and past that I still am not taking your word for it.

          • lmn118

            The game isn’t played by a lot of my customers, at all but that doesn’t stop them from collecting and buying.

            You are being ridiculous, which being the internet shouldn’t be surprising. So basically every online sale is meaningless when considering demographics because that customer from the Russian Federation, or the one from Australia this morning can’t play at my store.

            OK, regardless its true. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is collaborated with other shops. I have nothing to gain so why would I lie? The opposite is true if what you are saying is correct then my sales should double right?

            Most likely you just don’t want to accept facts as they don’t fit your narrative so the other party has to be lying.

          • The14th

            I’m saying since I can’t see your sales data it’s your word versus mine. I don’t even know how you came to that conclusion, unless you stop and check every name on every credit card transaction you have in a store where you never meet your customers. So I’m not going to debate information I can’t corroborate.

            But even if it were true, it’s still no evidence that women don’t have any interest. The gaming population follows the general population, about 50/50 male and female. It stands to reason that there is some other issue with the game not attracting females other than girls like their dollies and don’t get into nerd stuff.

      • Nathan Hostetler

        Even assuming that women are interested in playing with war dollies, there’s still nothing to suggest that a majority of women would agree with or be attracted to a feminist’s version of 40k.

        Yeah, SoB have baroque boob armor, but there are a lot of women out there who love that specific aesthetic. It’s 2017 and you can still make a living selling Victorian corsets.

        • The14th

          And yet, there is a definite gender gap in the player base. So obviously there is not enough to broadly appeal to female gamers. And by my experience most female gamers (even cosplayers) aren’t into wearing corsets.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            It doesn’t necessarily follow logic that because there isn’t equal representation of both sexes among 40k players, that parity could be achieved by releasing any one type of model. Guess what – women are individuals. It’s not like every woman ever, or even most of the women who have considered table top wargaming, all get together on the Feminist40k Facebook page and confer about how exactly 40k has to change before they all jump on the train as one unit.

            I think that female guard and more female models in general are great ideas, especially if they do make women feel more welcome. But is that going to bring the gender ratio to 1/1? You’d need to have some pretty strong evidence to convincingly claim that it would.

          • dinodoc

            “I think that female guard and more female models in general are great ideas, especially if they do make women feel more welcome.”

            Then this argument basically boils down to “Man those weirdies trolling for Female Space Marines are weird.” and I totally agree with you there.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Yeah that’s basically exactly how I feel.

          • dinodoc

            We seem to agree on the rest of the argument too as we both believe plastic SoB and mixed IG won’t give the player base cooties. I’m happy.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            I aint afraid of no cooties.

          • dinodoc

            ROFLMAO
            I regret that I only have 1 up vote to give.

          • The14th

            Why the hell are you so pissed off then? You just admitted to not being bothered by non-sexualized models. Are you just upset that somebody is talking bad about your hobby?

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Who said I was so pissed off?

            Does it upset me when people use dishonest rhetorical tactics in an effort to shame people into accepting a single, prescribed ideology? Yeah, I guess that does make me a bit upset.

          • The14th

            If the proscribed ideology is not all female game characters have to have their breasts out, I’m fine with that being the only one.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            So am I, but that’s not it unfortunately.

          • The14th

            Then what is it?

          • dinodoc

            Be nice. He’s agreeing with you now regarding your main point. He’s just dubious that it will increase the player base as much as claimed. Take the win and talk about how Victoria Miniatures could serve as an example for cool Female Guard Models.

          • Jared Jeanquart

            Are you…the Gap is because the game’s appeal increases with a person’s degree of autism. Female autists are quite rare.

      • dinodoc

        For arguments sake, let’s say it does nothing to increase the player base. In that case, all we’re left with is plastic SoB and more model options for IG. The players win either way.

  • Jared McWilliams

    RT had female space Marines.

    Just required you to roll the gender switch trait on the chaos boon table, but it certainly existed 🙂

    So there were female space Marines in the game and fluff, just not chapters of them.

    That said the lore has changed between editions, the lore is fun because it immerses you but GW is a model company not a lore company. Hence they can say the books where predators had multilasers wasn’t Cannon.

    I say bring on the female Marines, the don’t ask don’t tell Marines, the asexual pod people Marines. Let’s just roll dice and play a game.

    • Iconoc1ast

      Make your own then. Not needed nor wanted.

  • With such a hateful article, I’m not surprised they got under attack by others. Wow, I’m really shocked how much hatred is in this article and it reflects *nothing* of the hobby as I know it. Especially since our clubs are open to everyone the same way.

    • The14th

      Haven’t seen a woman at my local in years, and based on the conversations I’ve heard in the store it’s not a surprise. So I guess you must play somewhere grand.

      • Looks like I do, because there are girls in our clubs. The store-owner is also a woman.

        • The14th

          Then congratulations, you play at the gaming store version of a unicorn!

          • Actually I’m not playing. But I’m shopping, talking and painting. And whenever I’m there, there is nearly always at least one girl and they seem fine.

          • The14th

            Well great, some of us would like more stores have women regulars.

          • As I wrote elsewhere, the problem might not (only) be the attitude of the people in your stores, but the simple fact wargames are games about war with little nerdy toy soldiers. That *idea* doesn’t appeal to many women I know, no matter the lore or models as such. And that’s totally fine for me. If they like it, cool. If they don’t, no problem.

          • The14th

            That’s old sexist crap, there are plenty of studies showing there are just as many female gamers as male.

          • Then I just happen to live in an area that’s not part of your studies. *shrug* But maybe it’s because I’m not a scientist and just talk about the reactions I get from my friends. While most men I know have at least some interest in the painting quality, the women all shrug and say ‘aha’. Maybe I’m living in a different world then.

          • The14th

            Oh, so ALL the men are interested then? Or could it be about the same amount are not, and you’re just using your observations of women out of context?

            And how exactly is scientific studies less valid than one person’s anecdotes? Why is one data point somehow better than hundreds of thousands?

          • You’re really trying to go for an argument here, aren’t you? No, not all men are interested. I explicitely said ‘most’. And most means more than 50%. And I also said at least in the “painting quality”, that does not include the game, the miniatures or the lore attached to it.

            I also nowhere said your studies (link btw? might be an interesting read) are wrong. I just happen to not have experienced that.

          • The14th

            There’s plenty in the wikipedia page about it:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games

          • So 40k is a video game? I thought it’s a tabletop wargame. But I guess all games are the same then?

          • The14th

            Are you saying there is no relation in the hobbies?

          • I don’t know if there is. I mean, a wargame is a game about war and violence. I could assume, but don’t have any studies at hand, that this has a meaning in this after all. At least it does for my girlfriend. She does play certain video games and none of them is related to violence in any way.

          • The14th

            Let’s get this straight: you feel there is no crossover between those who like to play games on computers and those who play games on tabletop?

            Personally I can’t think of one gaming friend who doesn’t play video games in some form.

          • As with everything in life, there are probably folks of every kind. I don’t want to make assumptions and I don’t want to generalize. Thank you.

          • The14th

            And yet you generalized that most women have no interest in wargaming.

          • No, I didn’t. I just spoke about my own experience.

          • The14th

            And in your own experience you said most women have no interest. Anecdote or not it sounds general.

          • Personal experience is not generalization. If you think so, I really don’t know what else to say. Cheers.

          • The14th

            You give the English language too little credit.

          • Or because I’m not a native, I don’t see the same interpretation of the words. When I talk about what I see nearby, that is by definition not a declaration about how the entire world looks like.

          • The14th

            But saying most women you meet have no interest is a general statement about those women since you were using an anecdote in a wider conversation.

          • I actually doubt you’re really intested in a useful discussion and instead just trying to make me look bad. I don’t know why, but I’m not interested in such a talk. Have a nice day.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Well, one is digital, the other is physical. One can be purchased and played immediately, the other requires hours and hours of additional preparation. One utilizes computers to track the rules of the game world, the other requires that you memorize a phone book. Nope, exactly the same.

          • The14th

            And are you trying to say that female nerds don’t have the attention span for it?

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Are you trying to say that 40k is just as easily accessible as video games, and therefore what is demographically true for one should be true for the other? Because that’s just silly.

          • The14th

            Didn’t say that, but as one of the various gaming subcultures it stands to reason that it would attract the same types of people. It’s certainly been my experience.

    • JN7

      So, you’re saying misogyny, racism, and threats are OK with you because you disagree with the article? Just because you haven’t experienced something doesn’t make it not a problem.

      • No. That’s not what I’m saying at all. But I dislike all clubs being called out for something bad happening in specific stores. Just because some people are idiots doesn’t mean everyone is. Like always in life, you can’t simply generalize. And actually I am not really sure this problem is about 40k either.

        • JN7

          Not All Stores? Ok.

          • What you’re trying to say? That all 40k gamers and stores are full of racism and sexism and that this problem comes from 40k itself? Then I guess we simply agree to disagree.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            He’s a neo-Marxist, he believes everything everywhere is full of racism and sexism and the problem comes from western civilization itself. It’s what they do.

          • The14th

            I think you’ll find Marxism has little to do with views on racism or sexism. But go ahead, misuse words.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            That’s where the “neo” comes in, chap. Same dialectic applied to any kind of social inequality, not just economic ones. Though it doesn’t make much of a difference because the goal is still to deconstruct Capitalism and western society as a whole in the end.

          • The14th

            That’s not the goal of Marxism either, so you’re still wrong. And Neo-Marxism is a loose term for any newer interpretation of Marxism, not some way to make it mean something completely different.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            …maybe you missed the part about Dialectical Materialism. The entire philosophical underpinning of Marxism and all its derivations, that is.

          • The14th

            Got that backwards, that came FROM Marx. Or at least, was based on his work. He never used the phrase.

          • JN7

            It’s fine. I’d rather be called a Marxist than a racist or sexist.

          • JN7

            No, but plenty of gamers have problems seeing women or minorities as fellow gamers, and treating them like people. 40K is making strides to improve how it represents women, which is good. Neck beards pushing back against progress are the problem. It’s only a negative article if you somehow think combat heels and half-naked chicks are a requirement for wargaming.

          • I despise half-naked chick miniatures. But that’s not the main issue why for example my girlfriend doesn’t like 40k. And idiots are idiots, no matter if they play 40k, warmahordes or league of legends.

      • Jared Jeanquart

        Whoa, just because you experienced something, doesn’t make it omnipresent.

        • JN7

          Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue.

          • There may be an issue, but it doesn’t need to be generalized onto everyone and every store.

          • JN7

            Raising awareness of a problem isn’t bad, unless you are part of the problem. Does it hurt to be aware that minorities and women often feel unwelcome among gamers or in stores? Stop making it about you.

          • No, THAT is totally fine. But trying to tell me that everyone is a racist sexist idiot or telling me that I’m fine with racist sexist idiots (as you did) is not.

          • JN7

            You described the article as hateful. That is ignorant at best. If you don’t think misogyny or racism should be part of gaming culture, then there’s no reason to suggest it’s OK that people receive harassment for speaking out.

          • I didn’t harass anyone. I was talking about the impression I got when reading the article. If they are allowed to speak about their impressions, so am I.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            You can speak out without being hateful, dishonest, or bigoted yourself.

      • Nathan Hostetler

        So what YOU’RE saying is that by HIM saying he disagreed with the article for any reason, he’s proving himself to be OK with misogyny, racism and threats? Either you like and agree with THIS article or you’re a bigot, right?

        • JN7

          He said an article was hateful that called out gamers for misogyny and racism. I don’t think there are many ways to interpret that in a positive manner.

          • lmn118

            Or that it tars everyone with the same brush simply because we are men.

          • The article is hateful, because it’s trying to tell me that everyone is. And that’s just a bland attack on my values. I dislike being generalized. And I think I am totally allowed to call out for that. After all, isn’t that one of the problems the article is calling for? Not to generalize and to have a bad view on a whole class of people?

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Huh, well how about we either take him at his word or honestly ask him what his issue was before we ascribe such negative qualities onto him? Nah, better to browbeat everyone into submission without wasting time on discussion first.

          • JN7

            Does someone need a safe space? I repeat, if you think that an article that calls out racism and misogyny is hateful, that says all that needs saying.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Does calling out racism and misogyny preclude something from being hateful? Like, it’s just a magical get out of jail free card for lack of decency, civility or reason? Oh, THAT’S why you do it so much.

          • JN7

            I am under no obligation to be tolerant of intolerance.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Right back at you, bub.

          • Intolerance starts when people start to generalize. That means someone who is calling everyone a racist is intolerant too.

          • JN7

            Don’t support a racist, misogynistic agenda and we have no problem. I will not be quiet just to make other people more comfortable.

          • I don’t support idiots anywhere. I just dislike being called out as being one of such.

          • Nathan Hostetler

            Hey comrade, don’t cut in the bread line! Didn’t you know only racists and sexists do that? Comrade, only racists and sexists don’t read the official state-run newspaper. Hey comrade, execute this bourgeoisie dog or you’re a bigot!

    • Lion El’ Jonson

      There is no hate, we just don’t want female Space marines!

      I’ll champion the cause for female Guardsmen, and god knows I will champion the cause for Sisters of Battle to get the kits they deserve, but the female line stops with Space Marines.

      It does not make sense. the Emperor laughed at it when Malcador told him about it, and I doubt Guilliman thinks we need Grill marines too.

      • That wasn’t what I was talking about at all.

        • Lion El’ Jonson

          I completely misinterpreted what you just said.

          Sorry bout that

      • The14th

        Already sort of have those with female Sigmarines, nobody batted an eye at that.

        • Lion El’ Jonson

          Sigmarines were never only males. Space marines have an established identity in lore and models as a male only army.

          • The14th

            And that could NEVER be changed in the lore, right? It’s not like such a thing couldn’t be written in as a new development, we’ve never seen any changes to the Space Marine form before…

          • Well, you could do that. But does it need to be done just for the sake of it? Does really everything need to be gender-neutral nowadays? I don’t see a problem with a specific military arm of some fictional empire being purely male while others are purely female. Lets just accept that as with everything in life, it’s diversity is what makes it great. And that includes that some military branches have mixed sexes and that some don’t.

          • The14th

            The problem is you have an all-male formation not defined by their sexuality, and an all-female formation almost completely defined by theirs.

          • That’s not the thing I was talking about though. Because what you say is true and the problem is the presentation. Not the fact of their existence. Is it?

          • The14th

            Well, for starters as members of the Ecclesiarchy they both still have men and are subservient to them. So we’re not talking apples to apples here.

            But imagine how different the discussion about Sisters of Battle would be if they had a Space Marine’s form-neutral armor instead of something that looks like it was designed by a person with a kink for Victorian dominatrices. Then it would be the easier mission of putting more females in the upper reaches of the Imperium. Instead we have a situation where adding females to the battle brothers seems the easier feat.

          • Richard K Gabriel

            What is stopping them from just saying the space marines are female? Who cares what people convert their homebrew armies into. They are demanding the actual lore fit within their fanfiction.

          • The14th

            Because that goes over like a lead balloon.

            “Could we have better female models in this game?”

            “Do it yourself, I can’t be bothered.”

            Past that, the product line is 100% based on the lore. So for GW to change the line, the lore must change with it.

          • Richard K Gabriel

            Why does GW have to change the line at all? They will add stuff eventually but it doesn’t have to.

          • I’m not talking about Space Marines or Sisters of Battle here. I am talking about the general fact that I don’t see a problem with pure male military arms. Just like I don’t see a problem with mixed and with purely females.

          • Lion El’ Jonson

            The Emperor himself said it could not be done.

            You shouldn’t just liberally change established lore just cause females aren’t part of the army.

          • The14th

            And yet, he didn’t. He just said they were much harder to make due to his genes being the template.

          • Lion El’ Jonson

            It’s effectively impossible, because the process of making space marines is keyed towards the male body.

            Why would it suddenly change?

          • The14th

            Why did we suddenly have an entirely new form of Space Marine?

          • Lion El’ Jonson

            It’s still tied to the gene seed of the primarchs. It still holds to the same principals as how normal marines are made, just with more implantations.

          • The14th

            So you’re saying it would be impossible for a GW writer to find a way? The same fellows who never said it was 100% impossible in the lore to begin with?

          • Lion El’ Jonson

            Not impossible for someone to suddenly let it happen, but I hope they never do it.

            An overwhelming amount of the Imperiums male population can’t even hope to pass the trials needed to even be considered Space marine worthy, and of those that do survive, they may end up dying simply cause their bodies can’t take the organs.

            But now suddenly women are going to start passing these challenges in their hundreds and becoming fem marines??

  • Richard K Gabriel

    “Everybody wins” Tell that to Marvel’s comic sales numbers.

    You are demanding something you already have. We have representation of every minority you can think of and any you can make up. What you are demanding is the lore change to suit YOUR needs not the needs of the community not the needs of minorities YOUR needs. This hobby is awesome and its hardcore frothing at the mouth fan base is the most accepting and welcoming I have seen in most fandoms. However, you have no right to enter’s someone’s house and demand it change to suit your personal tastes.
    You want women models? Play Sisters of Battle or the Sisters of Silence. You think they are over-sexualized? You can say the same thing about the Space Marines. If it is still a problem for you and you must play females (you are pretty sexist yourself but I digress) Then play the Eldar plenty of female units there. Still too sexual? Play the Tau the units are in mechs or gender neutral. Speaking of gender neutral why don’t you play one of the races without a gender at all like the Tranids, Necrons or Orks.
    Oh you want to play the Imperium? Then play the guard and say they are female. Real soldiers in combat have no visual difference between male and female So you can just say they are coed or hell all female and it wouldn’t matter in the slightest.
    But no you HAVE to have female space marines. Fine say all your space marines are female. Say they are from one of the lost primarchs who was a female. They don’t have to look any different given what I just said about actual soldiers. It won’t be canon but who cares? They are your models, your armies do what ever you want with them. Why does the fluff have to have female space marines or more representation at all? I am not represented. Where are the Mexicans? I have seen thousands of converted models that are not canon. (Fairy Necrons.. no seriously with fairy wings and everything) They don’t have to be for you to enjoy this hobby. Just get into it.

    And while you are at it Feminist 40k show us your models.

    • The14th

      Marvel’s numbers are in the tank because the books suck, not because there are girls.

      • dinodoc

        You’re wrong. It’s clearly the women and minorities fault. It’s not possible that bad writing and an addiction to “Events” could chase away sales.

      • Richard K Gabriel

        It is because they sacrificed good story telling and character development to be diverse.

        • dinodoc

          Like I said. It’s totes the fault of the evil women and minorities.

    • dinodoc

      “Real soldiers in combat have no visual difference between male and female So you can just say they are coed or hell all female and it wouldn’t matter in the slightest.”

      I really do invite you to look at this site and tell me why GW can’t or shouldn’t give us female Guard models?
      https://victoriaminiatures.com/

      • Richard K Gabriel

        Then buy those or use the Games Workshop has given us to turn our models into what ever we want: Green Stuff

        • dinodoc

          So are you just afraid it would give you cooties if GW sold mixed IG regiments or is their another reason for your opposition to the idea?

          • Richard K Gabriel

            No I want them to do that. However I have read the Feminist 40k page. First off they aren’t feminists and I seriously doubt they actually play 40k.
            If they want to release female guard models great I would buy them for my own army but what they want is to change the lore to suit their own desires.

  • Iconoc1ast

    Well said

  • Michael Bradbury

    Excellent article, thank you. Aside from the moral and social responsibility aspects of the matter, its mind boggling that GW does little to reach women and ethnic minorities purely from a business point of view.

  • Davewasbaloo

    Right on. I do think there is a problem among some hobbyiss and for that I am truly sorry. Thankfully my daughter is one of many female members of our group and I hope that continues to improve for everyone’s sake.

  • Jim Westby

    There are tons of female miniatures for use in 40k. Even more for age of sigmar. Just because one part of a faction don’t include any, doesn’t mean they are discriminating women. “Yes, but they are all sexualized!! “. No. Just No. GW have some of the least sexualized miniatures in the industry. Look at DnD, or any other fantasy rpg. Then you can whine about chainmail bikinis. It is indeed difficult to build an all girls army with anything but tau, or guard. But to me, and even according to you, this is a good thing. We want diversity on the table. I have it. A lot of my imperial army are female. The leader of my tyranids is female. We also have a fair amount of female players in the area. Out of the 10 people I regularly play with, five are in fact women. This is not the boys only club you are trying to describe anymore. And if you absolutely want female space marines, nothing is stopping you from doing that either. I have those, too, if you want examples. Nobody is forcing you to build your army a certain way. Your imagination is the only limit.

    • dinodoc

      Beyond the weirdies asking for Female Space Marines all anyone really wants is Plastic SoB and Mixed IG regiments and people are loosing their minds.

      • HydraGC

        Yeah that’s what I was suggesting before I got angrily shouted at due to having different opinions. That there should be female space marines and that my opinion is sexist and I am a white male. Which is rather amusing since I am Asian but nevermind that.
        I am up excited for new sisters models and IG ones. We even could get a new range of the sisters of silence.
        Final bit why do people want female space marines, why be a 8ft something psychopath brute when they could be something else maybe even a new faction but anyhow I digress

      • Jim Westby

        This would be a good thing, of course. I am all for more bits. But just don’t cry out like the world is burning because of it. Even in tournaments, only half the mini has to be GW parts, so you can still make basically whatever you want.

    • Iconoc1ast

      Finally some sanity!!

  • scadugenga

    If women truly are demanding that GW make female hyper-aggressive, emotionally stunted psychotic asexual eunuchs suffering from gigantism decked out in slabs of ceramite armor with comically large pauldrons, then go for it.

    I mean, they may not get that Space Marines are glorified caricatures, but that’s on them.

    Eldar/Dark Eldar are far more gender-equal than anything else, and the IG are the true heroes of humanity.

    And does that mean that they can start allowing men into the Sororitas?

    Here’s a concept:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Rocky_Horror_throne_screencap.jpg

  • Ari Varey

    I don’t have a problem with inclusion or whatever buzz words are in use now. The Emperor will allow anyone to die for the Imperium. That being said, the entire buisiness world saw what happened to Marvel. The buisiness world knows that SJWs are all talk and no sales. So don’t expect radical changes to happen.

    All that said: plastic sisters last year GW. Get on it.

  • That’s not the point I was talking about. I already said that bad representation is bad.

  • Austin Kennedy

    Gamer Gate 2.0 Tabletop Edition!

  • Simon Russian

    Just like to point out here. I have done reenactment and LARP for 20 years. I teach HEMA and know lots of women who have fought in Armour. Nearly all of them prefer a molded breast plate which allows for the contours of there lady parts. Its just a matter of comfort.

  • Austin Kennedy

    Chaos will never conquer the Imperium and Warhammer 40k will never bow down to Sarkeesian’s Marxist Hordes!

  • Rat Finker

    This is hogwash, I never knew that someone could accuse others of wanting to get their own way so badly all the while ignoring their own actions.
    It’s so strange that people demand other’s must conform to their own desires and needs. ‘Diversity’, as if the models themselves didn’t already cost a ton?
    I wonder why people would want someone to entirely change the artistic direction of a entire long running series if they themselves actually didn’t like the series.

  • The BolS mods really need to stop getting triggered by someone merely mentioning Arch Warhammer.

  • Roquet

    This is what killed MTG community and made MTG an almkst unplayable, feminists arrived, changed everything, destroyed everything, then left because they thought that they are not actually intersted in the game. And was dine with the best of intentions. Mow is WH40K turn, I hope it survives the feminist (tyranid) invasion

  • Dirk Hammer

    I play noise marines and daemons of Slaanesh so more female players and models are going to be amazing for my tentacle monsters.

  • I never experienced anyone being excluded for their skin color or their gender. Quite the opposite. Whenever a woman lowered herself into the pit of unwashed gamer nerds, everyone toppled over themselves in an effort to make the space as welcoming as humanly possible to her.

    That space this ‘person’ describes, where people are excluded for their race, gender or disability doesn’t exist where i am gaming. I have yet to find a more inclusive group of people than tabletop gamers. Its about the only group of people, i ever knew, that don’t care what you are or who you are, and everyone just wants to have fun together.

    But maybe that is the problem. Not making special allowances and not caring about peoples race and gender, and telling people to keep their politics outside, because we want to enjoy a few hours without that nonsense, might be just the problem this Feminism40k has an issue with.

    As for representation… again… i have the strong feeling the Author of this hasn’t even the faintest idea what they are talking about. Nobody cares if you paint your Space Marine black, white, yellow or purple with blue stripes. Gamesworkshop specifically created 2 Legions that are no longer in the records, so you could make them whatever you want to make them.

    Female Space Marines used to be a thing in the very first edition and if you want your female space marines so badly, take a Sororitas head and stick it on a Space Marine Body. Half the hobby is building and painting your models. Customizing them to be YOURS.

    I don’t care if you want to say your space marines are all Transgender Dolphins. I really don’t. They are your space marines. I also don’t care if you want to put them into a pink Power Armor. What i do care about is when they start to do silly things such as modeling boobs on Power Armor. There is absolutely no reason why they should be visible in Power Armor. It was already silly with the Sororitas, but for Space Marines it would be doubly silly, as they are most certainly not genetically created to have a massive rack, in a society that pretty much can only produce a one size fits all type of technology.

    I do not believe this Author would be happy with any changes made to the Source Material, until it was entirely unrecognizable as 40k. Nothing stops you from having an all female Guard regiment. Nothing stops you from having an all black guard reigment. Nothing stops you from creating your own female Space Marines, and you do not have any more right at representation than i have a right to getting more Consecrators lore. Really, it sounds like nothing short of a rewrite, until its entirely unrecognizable, will satisfy them.

    I really don’t know what else they could want. The lore already acknowledges the existence of all the things they are asking for, minus male space marines, and even for those it makes allowances to add whatever you feel is missing. You can say one of the missing Primarchs was female. The Godemperor missed that one pod had twins.. so hey, he might have missed that one of them turned female.

    *sighs* But honestly, we all know this entire post is a waste. I doubt Feminism40k would be reading this far. By now i am probably one of those evil people, they spoke about. That underbelly type of person. How dare i want to preserve the thing i enjoy and not have it changed into some unrecognizable thing. I mean, honestly… what stops people like Feminism40k from starting their own version of it? I mean Infinity, Warmahordes, Guildball and many other things are a thing. So why not make your own system? Show people how its done… i mean its not like pretty much all the tabletop games i just listed, including 40k isn’t choke full of diverse characters.

    We have strong female characters in 40k. We have strong black and disabled characters in 40k… what more could they possibly want? I never heard anyone complain about Eisenhorn being pretty much ‘wheelchair’ bound. The Gaunts Ghosts have many female and black characters, quite prominently displayed. The Caiphas Cain series has a prominent female Inquisitor that constantly bosses the Titular character around.

    Seriously… i just can’t help but feel that Feminism40k has no clue about 40k. How can you miss the fact that the Raven Guard are pretty much native americans… or that the Deathwing of the Dark Angels are native american inspired. I wonder if Feminism40k ever read the actual Deathwing short story, about how and why they are the Deathwing. Or how they could miss a chapter of black skinned Salamanders. How they could miss Saint Celestine.

    You can’t throw a stone in 40k without hitting at least 5 diverse characters.

  • Dirk Hammer

    I also like the idea that if you add female models into Warhammer that will somehow solve the problem of store owners making rude comments towards women.

  • Dirk Hammer

    “There needs to be more male Bratz dolls” said no one ever.

  • Dirk Hammer

    “My wife went to a hobby store, and when she got there they forced her to wear a burka, then they stripped her nude and said ‘We don’t allow any filthy ladies in this store of only male gamers!’ before punching her in the stomach and throwing her from the store naked. This totally happen for realz and every Warhammer 40K model should be changed to wimmins so that this never happens again!”

  • Anthony Combs

    Well look at that BOLS is censoring us. And they call us fascists…..

  • ctFallen

    Ah People and their agendas. I just want to paint and play with my little toy soldiers but it looks like Political Correctness is going to shove its ugly head into that now.
    You are Hypocrites. There are so many straw man arguments its ridiculous. The whole article is about attacking, insulting and demeaning the fans of this game.
    I can’t say it any better than Arch does so I’ll let him. I doubt you will ever respond to what he says and not because your afraid of being harassed or publicly insulted(because you have no problem harassing and publicly insulting people yourself) but because he’s right and as much as you try you can’t change that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDncDbK2mb4

  • Bob Dylan

    Okay lets set a few things straight. First off I’m for getting females where females are due, like female guard because it’s in the lore. I as a male would buy female guard, because unlike what the author of this article thinks people can indeed play with models of the opposite gender how strange.

    Now for the lore, a fictional universe has some set rules to make it believable. If mechs would attack hogwarts what would your reaction be? Most likely WTF since mechs have no place in Harry Potter, because one of the unspoken rules is magic but no high tech stuff.

    Now this is a bit of an extreme example but the same goes for lesser items. If you stay consistent on things people will like your fictional universe more, because even though it has demons and space ships traveling trough hell it follows it’s own internal logic.

    Taking another example that’s a bit more relatable, lets ask GW to make a space marine tau army which works for the imperium. Does that sound a bit off? That’s because it breaks two rules, one xenos space marines and two tau working for the imperium. So NO on changing the lore.

    Now on about that part of “but it could be better if Games Workshop decides widen their market” this is blatantly WRONG. Marvel comics (not movies comics) decided to embrace diversity, the result where sub standard comics which focused on gender/race changed versions of the super heroes (female thor, black female iron man; which they’ll most likely ask for space marines later on) with bad plot and “unsolicited opinion on israel” (look it up). The result is that Marvel comics had an even steeper decline in comic sales as loyal costumers where angry about their favorite character getting a gender/race bender and becoming a way to spread politics. while not attracting any new costumers. So no representation doesn’t matter (but I as a man would still buy female guard).

    On top of that the Femenist 40k admin had said “if something about a hobby’s fiction was racist or sexist, and the creators were capable of changing that, would you ask them not to?” (i can send a screenshot). They want to get the racism and sexism out of the lore, no more xenophobic emperium, no more men only space marines, no more we are better than all other races eldar.

  • Bob Dylan

    Also I find it funny that feminist 40k has blocked some females because they respectfully disagreed with them. It seems that female opinion doesn’t matter when they don’t agree with the men that run that page.

    • Michael Stone

      Well its more funny that the group seems to mainly consist of male feminist, and is run by a male, but honestly pushing for diversity for diversity sake doesn’t really work.

      • Bob Dylan

        a smart person learns from their own mistakes a wise person learns from the mistakes of others (look at Marvel)

    • Jared Jeanquart

      I find it completely expected. That is typical behavior for these sorts.

      • Bob Dylan

        Indeed, I’m seeing a familiar pattern (Marvel, Games). I’d prefer they don’t mess up 40k for me too.

  • Ferret Ferretson

    This is all a deep cover CIA conspiracy to get GW to make plastic Sisters, I’d bet my patriarchy platinum membership card on it.

  • If we had plastic Sisters of Battle, this problem would go away. Also, I do not think that the Sisters armour is sexualized a large amount. Compare that to the women from comic books.

    • Watcherzero

      Catachans are obviously over sexualised representations of the male form to satisfy deprived women, they should be banned too……

  • Maitre Lord Ironfist

    The text is bad, the autor should feel bad. Still the autor got every right to have this opinion. Would still play against the autor, jsut becouse we should still be nice with each other.

  • DawnWAR777
  • Rob Oliphant

    Well written article, however it is not reflective of the way the admins seem to normally communicate with player as I have seen many verbally abusive screen grabs from the 40K Fem Admin

  • WhenDidVicesBecomeVirtues

    I can just imagine this guy going on a rampage if plastic SoBs finally come out and they have corsets and half naked repentia.

  • Emprah

    Like it worked out so well for Marvel Comics.

    If anything can sink GW, this is it. Catering to people who are not their audience and never will be, while alienating old audiences.

    • WhenDidVicesBecomeVirtues

      I personally think people are confusing correlation with causality with that. I think the same thing killing the comic industry is what did in the music industry, online piracy.

      I think the diversity agenda was just a business attempt to appeal to newer generations.

  • Sybarite

    Why did I start reading the comments? -_-

    • dinodoc

      Masochism?

  • euansmith

    Curses, this comment is going to be 1065 on this thread; I don’t get to be 1066 🙁

    I was watching a Guerilla Wargaming Video recently where Ash Baker was playing “Adeptus Titanicus” and he mentioned that this is the game that created the Horus Heresy.

    For economic reasons, GW needed a setting that allowed them to make one plastic sprue to make forces both sides in the conflict. Therefore, they needed a civil war, and the Horus Heresy was born.

    This says to me that the fluff is subordinate to business. It also says that this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as it gave rise to one of the best bits of Grim Dark Lore; the Horus freakin’ Heresy.

    Now, on the representation front, I can only see this as being a positive thing for GW’s bottom line. They already have a solid base in the White Male Demographic, and that, if they can open new markets by including more visible sexual and ethnic diversity, they can attract new customers and make more money.

  • Quintian

    In my opinion, there’s a reason for GW not wanting to represent different ethnicities.
    First of all, fluff-wise: I’m pretty sure that mankind has evolved into a more or less homogeneous ethnicity. Taking a look at our civilization, cultures have already begun to amalgamate because of our relatively primitive level of globalization. Warhammer 40k wikia states that colonization began somewhere in the mid to late 3rd millenium. I really don’t think there’s a planet for the French, a planet for the Chinese and a planet for Timbuctu’s inhabitants – it is more likely that colonization was attempted by a mixed-race organization. Even if 4-9 centuries were not enough to “wipe out” races, the next 38 millennia probably will, considering that soldiers from other worlds are left behind after or stationed during campaigns on “foreign planets” every once in a while.
    I assume that features typical for a race may surface now and then, but it is highly unlikely that a planet consists of one ethnicity only.

    Then, from a company’s perspective:
    Caucasian models sold better initially, because… well, the majority of English people and especially potential customers would have been white at the time.
    Historical reasons aside, would you include heads of different ethnicities in new SM sprues? This will only upset more people. Say you included three heads with typical white faces, one with typical Asian features and one with typical African features. Some would complain about the whites outweighing the other ethnicities, although, in reality, it’s the other way around. Some would complain that the African heads are not “diverse” enough – why is there no Afro hairdo? Some would complain about the depiction of racial stereotypes. Some would simply be annoyed by the inclusion of too many ethnic type heads, because now, they don’t have as much variation for their “neutral” heads as they were used to.
    I for one wouldn’t want that to happen, because I could only lose.

    Instead, I would paint up more of these space marines in different skin colours, because they sure fit most ethnicities, anyway. Just like Catachans may be white or black.

    As for the inclusion of female models, I’m all for it!
    More female Eldar, more female guardsmen, more ADEPTA SORORITAS! And they’re okay the way they are, because if the models were androgynous, there wouldn’t be anything special about female models.
    Female space marines, though.. nah. Keep it the way it is.
    Dedicated female (or mixed sex) chapter auxilaries would be awesome, though!

    … And Orks appear to be… sexless, anyway. 🙂

  • dinodoc

    This issue would likely die if GW released plastic Sisters. I would also like a mixed IG regiment release. Maybe Valhallan focused. 🙂

    • Reven

      We must be able to recreate Commissar Cain’s adventures!

  • FailureNecron

    Honest kudos to Bell of Lost Souls for giving Feminist 40K a platform. If some of y’all are filling your pants over the radical, cuuurazy idea of women wanting to take part in a setting that reflects them, and model sculpts that aren’t bikini witches… I don’t really want to share a game board with you.

    And don’t give me “It’s in the lore that 40k is a regressive, dark place.” People created that lore. People can change it. How many times has Warhammer retconned itself -this decade?- The sky hasn’t caved in. Y’all still have your jetbikes and Riptides. Get some clean diapers and let other people enjoy this hobby the way you’ve enjoyed it.

    • Evil Otto

      “And don’t give me “It’s in the lore that 40k is a regressive, dark place.””

      But that IS the lore. It’s always been the lore. The Imperium is one of the worst governments in fiction, an intolerant, xenophobic, uncaring, bureaucratic, fanatically religious totalitarian state. There have been no changes to the lore that show otherwise. The Imperium isn’t Star Trek, with equal rights for all and tolerance for others.