Well folks,
October is coming up quickly. As as we see in these set of publicity sheets, we will be seeing almost the entire Space Marine range updated and hitting our local FLGS shelves in just a few weeks. The release schedule has already been announced and now its just a matter of waiting out the days and preparing to raid our piggy banks.
~I've lost count of how many years I've been patiently awaiting a proper plastic drop-pod from GW, and the wait is now down to a matter of weeks. I'm betting they will be the biggest sellers of the entire new range. I'm certainly planning on giving my Pre-Heresy Death Guard about 5 of them. Which of these goodies are you guys excited about or planning on grabbing as soon as you set your eyes on them?
I agree, I want 5 to start, and eventually I want to do my battle company with them for Apocalypse
Those drop-pods will make your ordo hereticus strike force more popular among other things.
I too plan on getting at least 2 for my astartes.
I;m gonna get at least 2 Drop pods, maybe 3 if I get the Black Reach Box. Can't have a Footslogging Dreadnought now can we xD
preach it matthew, no more Footslogging dreadnought here and did anyone see you will be able to get the veterans from direct and pick the ones you want
Praise be to the Emperor!
Plastic drop pods!
People at our LGS use converted Wendy's cups!
How is it that we are just now getting plastic DP's?
Its an iconic Space Marine thing, the drop pod assault from orbit.
I would have eventually 2-3 to start, but I custom made myself about 19 by the time apoc. came out so I just don't need them. Oh well there are plenty of other goodies coming out. Like I don't have any scout bikers at all, hummmm.
Rift Knight
I'm most excited about the new codex. After that, it'd be... well, I don't know. There are some really great models in there, all of them with some great conversion potential. I mean, that Vanguard vet leaping with the powersword just oozes Emperor's Champion for one, and Some quick greenstuffing and parts swaps on the backpacks of those Sternguard would make great Salamander vets... can't wait!
i am sooooo all over that pedro kantor model.......mmmmmmm delicious
gonna have to buy 2 drop pods for my dreads
I'm sure we'll all buy this stuff so that we can adequately play Space Marine 40K vs. our friends.
My poor Orks...
Unfortunately, as a classics collector I'm not getting any of those new minis.
But that doesn't mean I'm not excited! I'm going to use the Thudd Gun as a "counts as thunderfire cannon".
My old AdMech minis can be used as a Master of the Forge, and finally my Conversion Beamer can be used as intented!
Not to mention all of the wonderful metal marines from the 80's, that are weird-looking enough to be used as those special characters and veteran squads.
Proper 40k cavalry bases, here's hoping that they'll be sold separately some time soon as well.
The more I see of this new marine codex, the more I have to ask what GW thinks its doing.
With the past three marine lists to come out over the last 18 months, GW has done nothing but remove units, options, abilities, wargear, make upgrades more expensive, and just tone things down in general.
Now with the new SM codex, they suddenly do an about face, give them 7 new units, oodles of Characters, and tons of upgrades and abilities, and free weapons and wargear.
Its not so much that I have a problem with Marines getting all this stuff, its the fact that the other similar armies that are in some cases less than a year old (Chaos) or just over (BA/DA), the completely leave these armies in a lurch comparatively and got *nowhere* near the treatment that the Vanilla SM's are getting, and GW does a complete design philosophy change, at seemingly great expense to these other SM armies and variants.
And lets face it, the 4E marine codex wasn't exactly lacking in most departments.
Well heres hoping that they've been listening and this is the start of a new era at GW, more more more! But it is infinitely sad that my armies ended on the tail end of the 'simplfy' regime. Means I might have to wait another 5 years to get the love like this. Give Chaos the freedom it deserves! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Anyway... I think the new book itself seems rather interesting, I'm looking forward to the expanded nature of it, hopefully someone besides Ultramarines get some fluffy attention.
Land Speeder Storm is second wave I take it, and not a part of the LS box unfortunately... the bikes can do some nifty things however (why they would need bikes to do them in the first place is beyond me, lawl, stealth bikes!)
- Forhekset
Definitely most interested in the drop pod.
Once Black Reach hits i'll be starting a small SM force. I'd like to do something really fluffy and iconic and the thought of a drop pod force is really appealing.
Having marines arrive via an orbital assault is just too cool to pass up. I just need to decide what chapter I want to do. I'm leaning towards salamanders but'll have to check out some more of their fluff. I'm not sure if they're realy the drop pod types.
@anona 4:10:
well prolly GW has realized that powering down everything is the wrong way to do.
would you rather have them ruin all codizies or just stop now, say "sorry" and start makeing amazing armies again?
its not like OPTIONS break balance, as 2/3 of games are still won by trooper-john-type tactical marines which will fail as many armor saves as before.
if you are pissed cause your chapter is left behind go and see if you can rebuild it with the new codex. If you can't, then there is either a good/powerfull rule in your old codex that makes you stay or you honor fluff above all and then you shouldnt complain "just" about rules ;).
I'll definatelly see and try if I can carry my chaos (unduevided) over to new SM codex. Let's see if all those toys are worth loosing a close combat attack and obliverators :D
NEW 40K CAVALRY BASES!!!111 At last, i can mount my ravenwing army without spending hours making decent bases.
Looks like i could use some of those drop pods for my armoured astartes force.
That Pedro cantor looks like he could make a nice Blood Raven
captain. Just need to clip of a few fists and voila!
Honestly, I couldn't care less about the drop pod. I want the new Codex of course, but also the veterans. The new all inclusive land speeder will be nice also.
As a BT player I am stoked by the Drop Pod (gotta have 5 or 6), the new Land Speeder and the LR Redeemer.
That drop pod is pretty sweet, but being a Space Wolves player, I need either like 10 or none. So for now, I a thinking none, but I may just pick one up to have such a sweet model. Hope the Wolves get love soon.
Hmmm...lets face it, we'll all end up with a minimum of 2 Drop Pods, my problem is can you still make a 'normal' Land Raider with this up-comming box? Not that fussed on the LR Redeemer, but is has some tasty looking parts that'll help greatly in assembling my planned LR Ares!
Currently running my Red Scorpions using the DA 'dex, but some of this stuff looks almost tempting enough to give up my 'fluffy for my guys' boat-loads of Terminator Troops armies...
I have to admit though, I'm a bit miffed at the new Sicarius, got the limited release Lightning Claws version still sat in his blister, and now he looks a bit redundant, unless I field him as a 'counts as' Shrike, but that doesn't seem too popular a choice at the moment...
DROP PODS DROP PODS DROP PODS DROP PODS DROP PODS DROP PODS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Has anybody noticed that the drop pods are supposed to hold 12 marines, but only have space for 10?
@culial,
From what I understand, the new land raider redeemer-crusader kit is a replacement for the current hybrid metal-plastic crusader kit.
GW is trying to phase out hybrid kits and replace them with all plastic ones. So you will still see 2 Land Raider boxes on the shelves; the normal one, and the crusader/redeemer one.
@ Its not so much that I have a problem with Marines getting all this stuff, its the fact that the other similar armies that are in some cases less than a year old (Chaos) or just over (BA/DA), the completely leave these armies in a lurch comparatively and got *nowhere* near the treatment that the Vanilla SM's are getting, and GW does a complete design philosophy change, at seemingly great expense to these other SM armies and variants.
I've been saying EXACTLY the same thing. The cool new stuff is exciting, but why oh why did they have to do this immediately after releasing such bland books (by comparison) for Dark Angels, Chaos Marines, etc. It boggles the mind. I sure wish they had waited to do DA and Chaos after the new Space Marine book, things would be a lot different I'm sure.
I'm looking forward to Drop Pods for my existing Dark Angels as well as new Space Marine armies. I'm sure my new SM army will have a Redeemer in it and one each of all the cool new models.
I do wish the army books I bought during the past year to year-and-a-half had gotten a similar treatment as the new Space Marine book. What a difference in design philosohpy!?!
I hope the enemies of the Imperium are trembling in there boots... and from the look of the posts and the mini's... they are.
the Emperor protects his faithful!
@ I hope the enemies of the Imperium are trembling in there boots... and from the look of the posts and the mini's... they are.
Translation: "I have no interest in keeping the game balanced or in keeping players of all armies excited about the hobby, I'm only interested in what makes me happy and let's me win games."
Personally, I can't wait for the Sternguard. It's practically a Deathwatch squad. Just paint their armor black and bam, instant Xenos Hunters.
Pedro Cantor! The scout bikes look pretty nice too. I may even be tempted to pick up a drop pod or three. It all looks really kewl!
BIgred-
I am probably going to pick up about 10-15 drop pods . ONce we get the codex and get to actually read it I might switch over to a all space marine bike squad and play soul drinkers.
IT really depends on how they FAQ the Black Templar's with it.
@anon -- Translation blah blah blah
How many people have ever, tournements or otherwise, ever looked over at a marine army and said "there is no way I can win"... ???
I think people are discouraged by what they percieve as some lackluster codices prior to this release. I also think that now... people will not be so quick to dismiss a marines army when they face it on thetable. Instead of looking over and not sweating it... now they will actually have to sweat a little.
See you on the battlefield,
@ I think people are discouraged by what they percieve as some lackluster codices prior to this release, blah blah blah blah blather.
Exactly, so you do get it. It's THE thing that's a bother to most of us. Not the cool new stuff or worries about losing, it's that the Codices just before this release are so bland and uninteresting by comparison.
I'm looking forward to the new units (and, *finally* a drop pod kit); but I'm really getting tired of the "Codex: Ultramarines" treatment.
There's no reason they had to model all those Ultramarine symbols on otherwise nifty character models if they are intended to be used by all chapters. Just how many special characters to the darned smurfs need!
I am waiting for the release or at least the preview of the codex. The FAQ's... if any... will be the real tell tale story on how this effects the marines. Can you imagine some of this stuff combined with say the Blood Angels or Cantor with Templars (I shudder at that one)... I doubt it, but it's possible.
The "sky is falling crowd" are amusing.
typhoon land speeder heavy 2 missile launcher? how did i miss that...
i think the grenade launchers on the scout bikes are cool, reminds me of those bikes from starcraft.
Definitely gives me greater push to get back to focusing on my long abandoned Ultrasmurf army...
Just relax about balance.
Troops are vital and there are not uber new troops coices for marines. Marine players have lots of nice options to choose from, but you can't win by making a list filled with all the new toys.
As for the recent codexes being lower powered, What if they had started laying out all these new goodies with Chaos or DA/BA? Eldar players would be screaming about how they only got Harlaquins and one less shot on their favorite heavy weapon.
Marines are the most popular model line GW sells by a huge margin. They don't need to do anything to boost the sale of marines. Now what if they had come out with a high powered Chaos codex before they announced 5th ed? Without the rules change of only troops being scoring that would be a huge imbalance.
It had to start after 5th ed came out and it made the most sense to start with marines because that's going to please the greatest number of players the fastest.
How many players do you think would have started chaos armies who were not really interested in chaos if they had uber cool toys back when elites, fast, heavy, etc were all scoring units and been pissed off when 5th ed came out. They spent all that money and have a bunch of models they will dump off at less than half what they paid for them.
Games Workshop did it right.
I think I might need to change my direct deposit to 'Games Workshop Inc.'
Good point Micheal!
As for what I'm going to grab, well, as much as I can :) Definately picking up a few of those drop pods, not to mention that space marine tank commander.
Now if only they would release some sort of veteran assualt squad to accompany my assualt Chaplain...oh wait...
@Michael
The Eldar army was probably the best one under 4th even with the 3.5 Chaos codex out, and under 5th its only behind Orks really.
Are you saying that Chaos and Dark Angels players should just suck it up because Eldar players would have whined about something? (and lets face it, they whine about everything) and that vanilla Space Marines should get all the cool stuff, and better versions of things in everyone else's armies (expanded capacity land raiders, assault vets that can assault from DS, expanded capacity Drop Pods, Librarians that know more powers than Lords of Change and Tzeentch Sorcerers?) just because they are the favorite?
Why should Chaos, Blood Angel and Dark Angels not get as expansive a range of Elites or HQ's and HS? Your justification is that they would have been disappointed when 5th came out and made troops scoring. I call BS on that. If the new Marine codex had come out 9 months ago, the situation would be no different than it is now.
Please, look are your justifications and ask if DA,BA and CSM players should really feel the way you do. I think you'll find the answer is *NO*.
Okay codices being bland compared to this....uh great whoop-de-doo.
I didnt know the whole game was based around codices, instead of figures and playing the game???
The only thing that discouraged me from playing Chaos is the fact that SM are easier to paint cuz im a newb....
And if your so belligerent in complaining about the stupid codex, then get it, get some SM and call them a renagade chapter and use the SM rules.
Be creative, thats what this game is all about!!!
@ Okay codices being bland compared to this....uh great whoop-de-doo. [...]
Ok, I didn't know there was some equivalent to a dark god-specific army in the new SM codex. you are right, If we could just play it like SM, why have GW created Chaos codex in the first place....
Those drop pods are too sweet...I wonder how hard it will be to convert them into dread claws with a little plasticard lovin';)...My World Eaters need about 15 of them...0_o
@Anonymous
No I am not saying that anyone should just suck it up because eldar players would whign about it. I should ahve included orks, but I forgot about them. My point was that GW made a big change, but they didn't hold all new codexes for 30 months before they made that change. Someone was going to be upset about it, but having people play with those kinds of new toys under 4th ed rules would create a serious problem.
We have a new game now, it this type of army with powerful elites, HQ options, etc works under the new rules but would have given a single army (whichever army happened to get a new codex just before 5th ed was announced) a huge advantage.
If the new marine codex had come out 9 months ago then it would have created a huge imbalance. This stuff would not work under 4th ed rules.
I can understand not being happy with it if you are a CSM, DA or BA player, I'm just saying that there was no better way to go.
Stephen :"and did anyone see you will be able to get the veterans from direct and pick the ones you want."
As a matter of fact I did, and those awesome combi-plasma guns will suit my chaos forces well...the rest of the fig will be donated to a marine playing buddy...
Interesting that they don't mention the drop in WS/BS for scouts... I bet that rumor is false.
Also, move the comments link to below the posts.
Everyone complaining in this thread are missing something completely essential...
Unlike the other armies, the Space Marine line was essentially complete. There were a couple of things that could have been made in "all plastic" but the only thing truly missing was the drop pod. When GW does a new Codex they try to produce a "Wow!" response with the models and C:SM was roughly "tapped out."
Another thing people are missing is that GW actually do listen to the players. The designers decide on a new design philosophy and implement it. They see how it goes over and then tweak it based on feedback.
Personally, I love the streamlined Codexes. I am completely happy with both the Dark Angels and Ork Codex. Both armies are challenging and fun to play and they both have goodies and options I haven't fully explored.
I'd love if the Dark Angels got some of the new goodies but I can wait. What's the rush? A scout landspeeder or the new techmarine options aren't going to massively alter game play. Some of the new options are things that will likely never make it into your competative army list. And if you just engage in narrative play, there is nothing stopping you from "borrowing" entries from the new Codex in your existing DA/BA/BT/SW codex.
why is everyone giving this codex a load of stick, i mean gw obviously realised that making every codex bad wasn't doing any good so they try to undo what everyone was moaning about (the blanding of the chaos codex) by making the newer codex's with better units in and everybody bawls at them , they can't release 10 codex's at the same time so stop moaning, just wait your turn
wait another 5 years you mean?
Why is it that after 10 years, GW suddenly decides that Land Raiders need a capacity of 12 (same with Drop Pods) but only for vanilla loyalists? How much do you want to bet this won't be made retroactive in an FAQ? (look at the current FAQ's and you'll see what I mean)
Why don't Dark Angels or Blood Angels get the nifty new Scout speeders, Thunderfire cannon, and why do they have to pay for their squad weapons where the Vanilla SM's do not?
GW didn't just tweak their design strategy, they did a 180* after toning down and removing options and abilities from every marine book in the last two years.
damn whinners
BYE
Let me begin by saying that I am a DA player. I really hope that we get FAQd w/ some of the updated goodies from the SM codex (storm shields, in particular). However, I am not going to get all emo because the SM Codex is has more cool toys. First of all, it would be silly if the DA/BA had a ton of stuff that they did not. Secondly, complaining that it's unfair that the SM codex has so many choices compared to the DA/BA is silly. Would you rather GW continue the trend of boring codexes (codecies?) just because the alst few were? Or would you rather GW listen to your feedback and put together better efforts down the road? I choose to see this as a sign of better times ahead, and I am really excited about 5th ed 40k.
I had been hoping cassius would give the tyranid hunter skills, or one of the special characters would give me the xenos hunter skill. It is the only trait that I can't seem to replicate out of my old army.
I am not overly fussed, but it is a real pain to lose the characterful aspect to the army. Oh well, hello SM generica.
I am expecting chronos and the scout sarge special character to appear in every SM force I face, and why wouldn't you include them? Their abilities are just too good to miss out on.
So I am guessing the new veterans replace the ultramarines tyranid hunter squads?
Fortunately I can see GW releasing additional Special Characters in the coming years for other chapters, through Battlezone / Campaign books, or in the White Dwarf. That would actually get me buying the WD if it had something like that in it again.
I guess the real problem is that GW's staff have been slackers or understaffed for the last few years. Few FAQ that were only so-so, etc. More than 5 years between editions for codexes is simply unacceptable. So now, they're trying to catch up and pissing off many players in the process.I guess not much can be done about it. But still, the right to whine is important. It's what keeps many of us from writing hate mail to GW.
Phil
@ damn whinners
What are whinners? It's either winners or whiners I suppose. Buy a dictionary before buying another Codex.
I just want to know if the drop pod layout is able to be changed if you want it to carry a dreadnought. Or is it just played with the 5 doors, and 10 roller coaster chest restraints left in and you say your dreadnought is a venerable contortionist?
Anon 4:53 pm "they can't release 10 codex's at the same time..."
And why the hell not? Where in frackin' game design law is it explicitly stated that "thou shall not produce all game materials required/relevant to said game so players may effectively play as fair and balanced a game as possible"? This could be part of the reason for such half arsed drivel as the 5th ed. faqs...or incessant codex creep...Perhaps their business model could take a slight hit by getting all the writers together and hammering out some codeci to insure everyone is on the same frackin' page. Hell,who am I kiddin'...that would leave us nothing to continuously argue about...and we ALL know that arguing about the game is far more entertaining than actually playing it.
@ Interesting that they don't mention the drop in WS/BS for scouts... I bet that rumor is false.
No, it is not false and not a rumour. Several people who've looked at the book have informed me that Scouts are WS3 and BS3.
@What are whinners? It's either winners or whiners I suppose. Buy a dictionary before buying another Codex.
Come to dakkadakka and say that
BYE
I just have one question for the BOLS guys. How did you get your hands on the marketing brief?
I work for GW, and that thing is sent to all the stores about a fortnight ahead of the release so we know what to expect.
Other than that, keep up the good work.
@ Come to dakkadakka and say that.
Not exactly the best advertisement for your forum is it? Yeah, sounds like a wonderful, friendly community based on THAT post.
I'll be getting 6 drop pods to add to the three dreadnought ones I'm scratching up using the templates GW released (and scuttled) a while back. It'll be awesome when the whole company comes crashing down!
mmmm perfect drop pods for my new soul drinkers force. Now if only someone would make decal transfer sheets for them....
And before anyone says it, i know my spelling sucks, and no i don't like the fact the some codexies got totally nerfed....
@ sardaukar
so u want them to release more than one army at a time, screw up all advertising in the process, let their sales go by bye cuz of customar division on what to buy... confuse the customers on what to buy and then have each of the new releases fail to make an impact in the fan community...
wow... thats an awesome idea!!
First of all, I think that BA/DA players shouldn't get everything that the generic sm book gets. the Idea behind the generic book is the player can design any chapter they want without using the abusive traits in the old book.
master of the forge and thunderfire? ironhands
redeemer-salamanders
cantor and sternguard with inquisition allies-deathwatch
the BA?DA books cover very limited units because the chapters may not use everything available in the-make your own sm codex
on the increased capacity on LR, rhino etc.
The increased transport capacity is 2. no squad in the SM codex can get above 10 models, that means the only time this will matter is when the unit is joined by an IC
I believe this was a needed evil that first appeared in the DA codex, in which squads could only be 5 or 10 models. full squads could not take an IC and a transport. since tac squads can only get weapon upgrades with a full squad, a unit cannot be joined by an IC and take weapons if they want to ride in a transport.
please remember that FAQs are coming out for all other Marine lists. if things like transport capacity and weapon stats are not changed in a FAQ, then you have a right to complain about unfair treatment.
If no changes are forthcoming, tell your opponent that you want to use the updated transport capacity and weapon stats available to the new marines. If the person is a gracious opponent, they will let you. If not then you should probably not play that person. that is what I do and I play a titan legion force using demonhunters rules, where the ass cannon is still assualt 3 jam.
-eddie
@ mmmm perfect drop pods for my new soul drinkers force. Now if only someone would make decal transfer sheets for them
Try looking in the Warhammer Fantasy range, particularly Bretonnians. There might be transfers there that have cups or goblets on them and you can customize or paint over them as needed.
And don't worry, we only pick on spelling when someone is insulting or rude like that one post above. After all, if you're going to attack others and you leave yourself open to reprisal, expect to get some.
@ please remember that FAQs are coming out for all other Marine lists.
Where did the idea that there would be an errata sheet for other Marines originate? I've yet to see anything that wasn't speculation on this. Does someone have this on good authority?
""please remember that FAQs are coming out for all other Marine lists. if things like transport capacity and weapon stats are not changed in a FAQ, then you have a right to complain about unfair treatment.""
FAQ's were already released (just a couple weeks ago, to update everything for 5th ed), and the FAQ's have *never* retroactively changed equipment or abilities, hence why Grey Knights assault Cannons are still only Heavy 3 with no rending. The FAQ's are not there to update things, only to answer rules questions (and they do that poorly as well)
Anyone expecting otherwise is going to be sadly mistaken, as GW have never gone back and redone such things since 2nd Edition.
Also, good luck getting opponents to let you use expanded Land Raiders for CSM's,DA and BA armies, which are explicitely stated as having 10 model capacities, the new SM codex doesn't retroactively change that, and thus in any official matter, they are stuck with 10. Don't count on it at GT's, Games Day's or Rogue Trader tournaments.
Also, why wouldn't the Ravenwing of all armies not have the LS Storm? Why do the Dark Angels and Blood Angels tech marines not offer the same sort of abilities that the vanilla SM's do, as other than Death Company, Ravenwing/Deathwing, they are Codex chapters and most of their units do identical things to every other SM army.
@ FAQ's have *never* retroactively changed equipment or abilities
That is correct. There seems to be some confusion as to the difference between an FAQ and an errata sheet.
FAQs answer frequently asked questions (hence the acronym, FAQ), they don't alter rules.
Errata sheets do offer changes and additions to existing rules, but I've yet to see anything reliable that indicates GW will issue errata sheets for other Marine armies after the new Space Marine Codex is released.
Ok, I have some reservations about game balance and fairness, but i am thrilled to see GW finally changing their design philosophy (assuming this is a sign of things to come and not just their most popular army getting preferential treatment).
So where does that leave us for the forseeable future? Firstly, the FAQ's need to be extennsive and make most of this new stuff available to variant chapters. Secondly, Chaos Space Marines need a supplement very soon, and should have limited access to allies from the Daemons list.
Most of the Xenos armies actually fared quite well in 4th or are due new codexes anyway, but GW do NEED to come up with some rules system (similar to old wargear lists) to allow slight adaptation of units, because even the most powerful of the 'simplified' dexes weren't flexible enough. Also, we need an Inquisition codex. This all needs to happen in a fairly short space of time, but I actually think they could pull it off. Lets herald the golden age of 40k!
@Anon 9:34
When was the last time GW issues such an errata sheet for anything?
Certainly not for anything of 5th edition, nor 4th, and I can't recall any such thing for anything involving 3rd edition either. The last time I remember GW actually changing rules after they have been published (except for the changing a couple things with the second printing runs of the Necron, Imperial Guard, and Chaos 3.5ed Codex, which basically amounted to adding a couple FAQ issues to the text) was with 2nd Edition.
I'll take about 6 or 7 of the drop pods and as many of those biker bases as I can get my hands on. That's only what, $250-300? That's nothing. :D
man I wish I had more money....
So can anyone please explain the total discrepancy and inconsistency of 5th edition's summary sheet with either versions of the SM codex?
The summary's infantry half-matches 5th edition rumors so far*, but the vehicle and weapon stats remain 4th edition.
*Example:
Captain, Chaplain and Librarian have new stats, but the scouts retain the WS/BS of 4. Also missing are new units such as the thunderfire cannon, new dreadnoughts, and any new special characters.
Why would GW only partially update the summary sheet, rather than keep it 4th or just release the full 5th edition version (since the new codex was only a few months away)?
@everyone
let me apologize for my previous post. when I said FAQ I meant errata, I regularly get them mixed up and thank you for pointing that out. I may be mistaken, but I remember hearing something about it at the last GT. again, i could be mistaken.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I play with a pretty tight knit group of players, where the objective is to have fun and play around with toy soldiers while kidding around. the actual written rules are less than important than the atmosphere
also, I am not a spokesman for GW, and I think that the LS storm could be justified as not being a part of the ravenwing for the following reasons
fluff-wise
the ravenwing's purpose is to track down the fallen, and call in the deathwing via teleport homer to capture/kill said baddie. even the ravenwing do not know the sad history of the dark angels, although they know more than most. I doubt the masters of the chapter would want to risk scouts finding out about their horrible secret
business-wise
with every new release of a book, GW updates part of the model line. In the case of the dark angels, it was the new veterans sprue, librarians, and DA characters. With the new SM book, GW wanted to make new units to sell. since space marines are the largest army they sell out of any range, more new units means more profit.
In most Sm armies, the master of the forge is going to be too busy keeping the chapter's tanks shiny to fight. just as the 10th company captain is too busy training new marines. I have not heard anything about the standard techpriest getting any new rules, apart from the ability to leave his servitors (where they don't work on a 4+) the thunderfire cannon and the fotf were included to give the ironhands and their successors some love.
the landspeeder storm would be more suited to a white scars army, as a way to let scouts not training to fight on a bike get some combat experience.
vanguard veterans would work well in a ravenguard army. as they are a hit and run oriented army
the DA/BA/BT books cover 3 chapters, the generic book has to cover the other 997.
-eddie
I'm happy about the drop pods (finally!), of course.
I play Blood Angels, and though there are a few things that sound interesting in the new Codex, at this point the rumors aren't making me want to switch from the BA book. I never ran 6-man las/plas squads anyway, so having 5 or 10-man troop squads is fine with me... I can min/max with my Veteran Assault squads if I want.
Marines will ahve enough trouble fielding enough models to hold objectives as it is to pay through the nose for some tricked out squads.
By the way, the price of the Space Marine Spearhead is $239, not $244 as is posted in some places including on new release boards in GW stores. This might be because if you add up the retail price of all of the contents it exactly equals $239 US.
oh wow. oh wow. im gonna start an entire new chapter because of these guys.
MEH who cares about their goodies, ill still wipe marines to the man
- :P
Definitely getting some Sterngaurds (already converted 4 extras) and a few pods. Also gonna need to convert a guy to be Pedro Cantor. Like the rules, but I'd want my own style commander and he'll need a new name too.
I agree that DA should not get the storm, as well as some of the other new stuff. DA Speeders are all Ravenwing, and what Ravenwing pilot would want to ferry scouts around?
As for the "older" codexes being "defective", let's face it. Chaos lost some options, but they're not terrible. Thousand Sons are GROSS to fight against, as are Plauge Marines, and Noize Marines aren't bad either. And they're ALL troops choices as far as I know, which helps a ton in 5th edition missions. The new codex:SM still gives us 2 troops choices: tacticals and scouts. The fancy Chaos troops beat the pants off of them any day, unless of course you can't play the game.
The Eldar codex will still be fine. I play Eldar and already have ideas about how to beat some of these units. Most of them are just slightly different versions of whats there already.
All I'm saying is that any codex can be competitive if you use it right. Dark Eldar players still do really well with a codex OVER 10 YEARS OLD! So I'm pretty sure that you'll find ways to beat these new toys with the rules you have.
Also guys, keep in mind that all these veterans will be pricey. I've seen 20 or 25 points per Sterngaurd. That's a lot for a T4 3+ trooper! The new codex will let me play marines the way I want (IE an elite, infantry based shock attack force), and will let just about anyone play their marines the way they want.
And of course, this is a game and for fun. So in my eyes anything that adds fun for anyone is ok, even if it adds some grief from time to time for me.
"Be creative, thats what this game is all about!!!"
My point being if you compare the latest Chaos codex with the one before it, it's obvious that they don't want us to be creative. It's hard to be creative when you've lost more than 75% of the options.
Or does it force you to be even more creative? I can't count the amount of 4 heavy support Iron Warriors armies with basilisks I was from the old chaos codex. Repetition isn't very creative...
Don't get me wrong I see what you're saying, but If you really sit down and think it out, I bet you can find a way to be happy with your army list.
Why are they advocating that the Vanguard vets would be good for Blood Angels assault vets, when that's what Vangaurd are in the first place? I mean, what was once unique for Blood Angels is now available to everyone.
Although I guess, my BA assault vets can take 10 storm shields... :P
@ Ben
But all the options! The daemonic gifts, so much specific mutations to be modelled, cult-vehicle upgrades, cult wargear options... it was a veritable all you can eat of conversion goodness.
You're right, I can still DO that... but I like it best when the game system supports creativity, the synergy between your creative efforts and actual incorporated gameplay. Something that not only looks different but also performs so completely different. And after all, isn't that the essence of Chaos in itself :)
Actually, I'm mostly interested in the stats for the Thunderfire Cannon and Conversion Beamer so I can start a couple conversions.
Well of course the sky is falling - it's all those lovely new drop pods landing!
Ben,
I see your point regarding 'cult' Chaos marines still being troops, and I agree this is one (and probably the only) thing Chaos has going for it right now.
However, this same thing reinforces the 'bland' aspect of the current Chaos list. Whereas the new Marine list has ways of creating a strong, playable theme (even going against a chapter's/character's background if it takes your fancy), in Chaos this is not as possible and in fact actively discouraged.
I collect a Khorne-orientated Iron Warriors army (the themes and imagery just compliment each other too well), so there is no way for me to justify taking Noise Marines (*hiss!*), Plague Marines or Thousand Sons (who are LEGION SPECIFIC, THANK YOU!). I'm sure many other players would and come up with some half-arsed fluff as to why, but this supports my point yet again.
definately the techamrine, i have every techy for my iron hands and some more iron within, iron without will be welcome. shame no iron hand IC's made the list.
Well here's to hoping that the new SM's will play as good as the models look!
I play CSM and have no problem with the refined codex, and see no reason why vanilla marines should be any different.
We have a whole new game (have people forgot the coming of 5th!) and so a new take on codexs and modelling was needed; to fit the rules, make gaming more interesting and show that GW DO listen to customers. I hope all future codexs are given this treatment.
I also wouldn't be surprised by updated versions of BA/DA/CSM codexs being released....
The current Chaos, Blood Angel and Dark Angel lists ARE 5TH EDITION! Unless there is a major backlash, they will not be remade until all other Codices have been done and 6th Edition comes out.
Finally "affordable" drop pod kits. It gets old accidently picking up an opponent's 7 or 8 plastic water bottles from the table top to throw into the recycling bin, only to realize that they are transporting the emperor's finest. I still won't have anything to shoot at for the first couple of turns, but now I won't forget how F'd my guard are. ;p
Anyone else notice how the Thunderfire cannon looks like Wall-E on steroids? :-)
Mick
"I collect a Khorne-orientated Iron Warriors army (the themes and imagery just compliment each other too well), so there is no way for me to justify taking Noise Marines (*hiss!*), Plague Marines or Thousand Sons (who are LEGION SPECIFIC, THANK YOU!). I'm sure many other players would and come up with some half-arsed fluff as to why, but this supports my point yet again."
Why not convert up some iron warriors with exotic heavy weapons and call them noise marines? Or make a squad with ornate bolters with hellfire rounds and use them as thousand sons? Or some guys with tons of bionic parts and call them Plague marines? This is what I mean when I say the list makes you be more creative.
As for some of the missing chaos vehicle upgrades, some of the old ones were just abusive. I don't think any army should have an upgrade that increases vehicle armor values. No predator should have front 14. You still have havoc launchers and stuff. You could make a nasty Nurgle puss flinger and use the havoc stats, ect.
This game is half rules and half hobby, so you have to make the two work together for you when it's needed.
Well I intend to create a new Space Wolves army, which would be using droppods as transports. Since there is no solid date about when we will receive a new SW codex, I'll be a little more patient and pick up those juicy new pods along the new SW plastics when they come out :) Or maybe just 1 or 2 for my current army then...?
Aside from that, I'm hoping for a new Salamanders blister for that special character that will be featured in the new C:SM. Just to paint it :)
"This is what I mean when I say the list makes you be more creative."
"...you have to make the two work together for you when it's needed."
Makes you more creative cause the product got worse so we have to compensate? Damage control, in oter words. That just reinforces my point :P It shouldn't be needed, it was fine in the first place. Granted I'm talking solely about customisability and depth of options, not about play balance. You can have both. I'm sure the new CSM list works and can be powerful, but I don't care about power. I want options.
That's fair. I agree that somethings are too much for this upcoming codex, but some are necessary. There's not a lot of total options for marines even after this codex. It's our old one with a different land raider (blah), a fancy techmarine (not too different), a speeder transport (ehhhh weird) and veterans that actually work like veterans.
I'd like to see a totaled up number of options from the Chaos codex and one from the new Marines one. Barring all the silly special characters I'd bet they're similar.
Again though, I'm sorry you're unhappy with your codex and I hope you can find ways to enjoy what you have regardless.
I'm starting to think again about just using the 3rd edition dex and see if people accept that :P
Either way I'm glad this new dex is looking pretty good. I just hope we get back what we lost when it gets back to us.
"@ damn whinners
What are whinners? It's either winners or whiners I suppose. Buy a dictionary before buying another Codex."
A whinner is a player who uses an army that gets him or her a shitload of wins, clown car eldar for example,but still sees fit to whine about everything else(unsupprisingly, also most eldar players :/)
Glad I could help clear this up.
Hey man I play Eldar and I don't whine, or use Harley's or 3 Falcons! But I guess a lot of us do...
So would a Deathwing player complaining of his lack of numbers be a 'Whinner"? Just to clarify.
Are we talking about minis or codex?
I really dig this stuff, its frickin awesome! These models coupled with the new starter box screams "vanilla army" louder than any manky rules do.
I'm thinking red scorpions, now to practice moulding mkIV helmets :|
"Death from Above"... never before has that been so apt...
I happen to play Eldar too - an entire Jetbike army with Autarch, Farseers, Warlocks on jetbikes with Jetbike and Vyper Jetbike Squads.... you don't hear me complaining do you? I refrained from saying anything on this forum until now because of too much complaining about overpowered marines (I also play a marine army with traits) and there is nothing here that hasn't already been said and discussed and whined about on a dozen different forums for dozens of different posts...
you don't like the new marines, fine, when the codex comes out and people start playing with it then use your brains and come up with tactics and strategies to defeat them. NO LIST IS UNDEFEATABLE
nobody said anything about this codex being undefeatable, but that they get a whole crapload of brand new, very powerful things after the last 3 consecutive Marine armies did nothing but get abilities, units, weapons, options, and sublists cut, especially Chaos.
Now the potential power levels may still be the same, but its a radical departure from the design philosophy GW has had over the last 18 months, and wasn't exactly welcomed. For them to turn around and go for gold with the SM codex after unabashedly gutting the other recent SM lists, its a hard pill to swallow, especially when the new SM codex has similar units, but either better or cheaper for no apparent reason (i.e. 12 capacity Land Raiders, Tech Marines that reinforce cover, when neither the DA/BA techmarines do and the CSM,DA,BA, and BT Land Raiders are stuck at a transport capacity of 10 with no errata likely)
I, for one am excited about the new codex... However, if they don't do an Errata or an FAQ to update the BA/DA that will piss me off. Why would Ultras have a heavy 2 Cyclone and a 12 man capacity LR when DA have a heavy 1 and 10 man version of both? It just doesn't make any sense. They have to
@veahirin
GW hasn't done such errata since 2nd edition, they didn't do it for Assault Cannons when the 4E codex came out to bring DA/BA/DH/Armageddon lists up to par, and they likely won't do anything for DA/BA/BT with this codex, they certainly haven't given any indication that they will.
With all these special characters will I ever see someone run a normal captain anymore? I don't know what the incentive would be to run a generic HQ captain or chapter master.
Maybe if every special character ended up costing double the points of the generic.....
If you look at the Chaos special characters vs. the generic with upgrades the choices are similar in costs. (excepting Abaddon and Aihrman) If this is the same in SM then I don't see why anyone would take a generic character which questions why even bother leaving the option in the book.
If someone is running any of the named chapters why wouldn't you run the character of that chapter? If characters play count as why not use a special character?
My final open question is: if characters can be played as count as are they still going to be unique or can a SM player rationalize that he has two different guys who run around in vehicles that both confer BS5 to the vehicle? I predict this upgrade will be the new mutated hull of the game if this is the case. I used to ask why even offer mutated hull to vehicles since every Chaos player took it. Why not just increase the base AV of the vehicles and include it in the base cost since it was a default option every Chaos player took? I might start joking why not increase the basic BS of SM vehicles and include it in the base cost now..... hopefully not.
Man in Apoc games my Chaos army, The Pyre Legion, will be rocking in some converted redeemer action. I really want those in my codex. sadness.
@ Abhinav Jain "so u want them to release more than one army at a time, screw up all advertising in the process, let their sales go by bye cuz of customar division on what to buy... confuse the customers on what to buy and then have each of the new releases fail to make an impact in the fan community..."
Doesn't seem to affect the marketing and sales of multiple other miniatures games manufacturers...some have even taken a page or two from GW's marketing play book...but not the whole book. No. I don't think releasing all of the codeci at one time would produce the kind of earth shattering events you seem to think will happen.Potential customers would get to do some comparative analysis by seeing other people play different armies at various venues so they can make an informed decision as to which army might suit their tastes...without the fear of GW totally fracking up their investment a year and a half later.GW sells miniatures, the rules are a secondary concern of theirs. They have stated in no uncertain terms that they design figures and create rules around them.We are dependent on GW figures to play the game (at the least tourney players are). If they released all of the codeci in one go (relatively speaking of course) I don't think it would adversely affect their large market share and it might go some way towards correcting rampant codex creep.They could then spend their energy on producing some of those tasty scenario/theme books we've been hearing rumors about for so long.Just my opinion.
Actually, so far I like the new Space Marine goodies, that Drop Pod looks awesome.
And I think that tank character would do well in any army though I would love to see him in a Space Wolf Russ Exterminator just for fun...
So just for all those that call me a Marine-Fanboy: I'm actually playing Guard and I love it, mainly because it is tactically challenging, but so is any army out there.
All I can say is that wait for your codex to come out, I am sure GW will have also nice stuff for all other armies out there.
Of course it is easy for me to say that with Guard codex coming soon (hopefully), so what about already released ones like Chaos Marines you say?
A lot of people complain about the Chaos Codex being bland...well I don't agree completely:
First of all, in Apocalypse games, Chaos can still use all the Imperial Stuff as traitor versions, ever looked at that box on page 117 in your Apocalypse book? Additionally, I am pretty sure Chaos Pods will soon come out of GWs plastic forges too.
Also, compared to most people whining about the CSM Codex on forums I have actually read the codex and I think it is quite a flexible codex:
Very strong characters too, lots of flexibility how to put wargear on your troops plus every marine nowadays carries pistols and CCWs with him.
That's quite okay considering the basic cost IMO.
Oh yes, about troops: I wonder if anyone ever thought what kind of mayhem you can start with CSMs just in the last turns when you actually summon your lesser demons onto the field, which count all as troops and are as such scoring units with nice close combat stats.
Chaos is way far from being underpowered, people just need to learn how to play.
@ Catzilla
nobody said anything about Chaos being underpowered.
It *is* a shadow of its former self in terms of options, feel, and units. Granted the old Chaos codex had its problems, but so does the 4E SM codex (SM armies with more HW's than IG armies, "We Stand Alone", etc...) and SM's aren't getting anything near the reaping that Chaos did, quite the opposite in fact.
Where SM's now get 7 brand new units in addition to multiple new HQ's (and Librarians with more psychic prowess than Tzeentch Sorcerer's and Lords of Change apparently) and improved versions of what they have, Chaos lost several units, lost the vast majority of wargear and unit options, Slaaanesh termi's can't have sonic weapons, all the god specific vehicle upgrades are gone, we can't even get retinues, hell everything is now dependent on extremely fragile Icons (which are expensive, and do nothing near what the old Marks did) and the list is more cookie cutter than ever.
@ all who are ´fraid ´bout balance:
I think the points will slightly change. All armor-stuff should increase in cost(new rules) - and i mean ALL, not just Marines.
Scouts get cheap, i presume all other get more expensive, except Tactical Squads and their big brothers wearing heavy weapons.
So the Marines will come with tons of brandnew units and rules? I tell ya, it´s gonna cost ´em!
Gosh, a cannon that slows down movement or negates cover saves... i see three pods for Heavy Support in every Tournament List. o.O
greetings, Tol
@ Anon 2:57
Given the way things are looking, it doesn't seem that Marine model count is really going to go down much, if at all. Basic SM Tac Squads cost as much as DA/BA/CSM squads at 10 strong with a Sergeant, but get a missile launcher and flamer included in that for free as well, where those other armies still have to pay for those.
But right now we don't know if that extra cost is 'included,' in the overall price of the unit. Just like DA Termies are Fearless, but that is 'included,' in the higher cost.
I.E. 10 marines normally 150 pts
10 marines with "free weapons," 170 pts
See what I mean. If that is the case then the free weapons could be a harm (maybe I don't want the free weapons and just want 10 bolter marines).
-V
P.S. In thinking about my earlier post concerning a FAQ I think that anyone would be a fool to not think logically that the 'new rules' like PoTMS and Cyclones won't be applied to BA/DA/BT. Even if they don't release a FAQ I think its safe to assume that the changes are applicable.
@sardaukar officer - You obviously have no idea how production, sales and marketing work. What you are proposing is like telling General Motors to release all their new cars at the same time because the new corvette makes the camaro less cool. Its not the way business works.
As for the so called codex creep, I just don't see it. In my club people playing Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Witch Hunters do quite well against the "new" dexes. I have yet to see a codex come out in the last 10 years that had any kind of overt advantage. (ok maybe eldar in some cases)
On a personal note, new veterans look most excellent.
@ anonymous 2:52
I agree with the loss of "feel", the codex could have been better but I still think it is reasonably balanced if I count all the new SM "toys" in (from an IG players point of view):
The chaos psy powers are still quite good, though I agree that the SM's catched up, but not too much IMO.
There is a lot of fine print in the chaos codex, I do not agree that the wargear options are too bad.
For example I try to compare gear options, for example storm shields and relic blades to the daemon weapons chaos can field and the weapon exchange options especially for elites like chosen.
Call me a newb, but I think in CC, SMs still look bad compared to CSMs.
Agreeably, icons appeared to be nerfed slightly, which is okay considering the powerful tool of summoning daemons as scoring troops choices now.
I see it like this, just a simple example:
I run through several scenarios with my IG in the last turns when the remainder of a "supposed to be rapid fired down" CSM troop just summons a pack of scoring daemons (which are allowed to assault) in front of my objective I try to hold with my guardsman squad.
Do they stand against those daemons in assault? Am I able to keep that objective? Was I able to target those 13 points scorers while in reserve?
Answer is no and for most armies out there (and I count SMs in here) it is the same.
Was it necessary to make those icons less stable? I surely think so. Icon bearing chaos units will get my guards full attention in 5ed.
I could bring up more options although I agree that god-specific chaos armies needed more love in that codex in terms of individuality.
@ Veahirin
SM tac squads will be 165pts with weapons. Thats 150 for the marines, and 15 for the vet sergeant mandatory upgrade, then they get the ML and Flamer also for that 165pts, where for DA/BA/CSM they just get the bodies and sergeant upgrade.
Also, *do not* expect PoTM or expanded capcity LR's, Drop Pods, techpriest abilities, etc to apply to previous books. They have their own entries that detail what their units are, they are seperate stand alone books with their own explicit and stated rules, and nothing anywhere says that the newer codex (that is not all that newer) over-writes their rules.
Unless GW comes out with an explicit errata document (not likely given their history) then none of the PotMS, transport capacity, librarian power, techpriest ability, or storm shield changes will apply to previous codex's.
@ Catzilla
Chaos has *always* been able to do the daemon summoning thing, in fact its the only way they can come on the board is through an Icon, and has been since early 3rd edition.
That said, the Daemons in the CSM book are probably the worst troop choice, and one really has no control over when they come in, and they aren't fluffy for every Chaos army either.
Also, the Icons are relatively easily killed off with the new wound allocation rules and the benefits they give are a shadow of their former selves for roughly the same cost.
@ anon 3:53
I know, played against those under 4th but I remember them being quite powerful in the game and more often than not quite decisive in capture and control (played mostly objective based stuff).
Plus they made excellent meat shields in the past.
Okay with the new assault rules they will not be as powerful in sweeps anymore, I give you that.
But still: to draw out scoring troops from reserve like the white bunny out of the hat? Which do not use up a FOC slot? Additionally to deep strike termies and outflanking chosen (good with 5th ed now)?
Vanilla Marines don't have that extra bonus to bring into the game. Yes they are a bit unpredictible in terms when they become available but that is manageable, especially in troop heavy armies which are more common now in 5th ed.
The fluff issue is actually a matter of taste. I believe summoned daemons are a hallmark of chaos and belong to any CSM army, but arguing about fluff, well...
I see very often that CSM players actually play like they would field a SM army on the table. They do not use the chaos specific goodies they got. Rarely see someone that has an extra chaos spawn model in the pocket for that delicious psy power there.
A waste of possibilities if you ask me. Icons are a must for CSM. Yes, they are easier to target now, for good reason, since in older editions they were almost impossible to root out, like my hidden commissar fist was too. Face it, wound allocation is a general nerf.
SMs got nice new toys but I do not see that those are so much better than the stuff that Chaos still has. Especially not before I know how much point costs will be.
The current chaos codex is the renegades codex. The Chaos Legions book will cover the specific 4 power legions with hopefully a lot more options and something much more impressive in regards to special characters than what we have seen so far. (I for one am hoping for legion specific daemon engines/vehicles)
But for the most part I like the look of the new SM codex, I am just disappointed that I am losing my xenos hunter trait. All those converted models.... Oh well. Makes the army cheaper to field. ;-)
@ Bucho
The Legions codex however will not cover Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, or Word Bearers, and at this point won't be seen until 2010 at the earliest. The current one tries to do Cult Legions, Undivided Legions, and Renegades, all while removing 80% of the options from the previous codex.
That said, the current codex doesn't even do Renegades all that well.
I'm looking forward to seeing the points as discussed but I don't see the tactical squads points varying much. (I'm sure someone will be happy to correct me)
The "new" units sound nice, but are really just the old Vets with some nice options, a Techmarine people rarely bothered fielding, and a watered down transport for scouts ONLY.
As for people saying that changes to weapons stats ie Assault Cannons, etc aren't retrospective to DA/BA codices etc...
Think.
Can DA/BA AC rend on 6s to hit?
Can DA/BA pistols shoot twice up to 12"?
No they can't. They are bound by the new weapons rules. This means yes, Cyclone Launchers etc will have updated stat lines from the new C:SM relating back to BA/DA codex.
If not I'm fielding as many Baal Predators as I can get my hands on.
As for the Chaos Players, I'm sorry you feel you have lost out with the flavour of your armies and the free Aspiring Champions.
Nice to have Ultra-Grit though isn't it? The poor old SM only get pitol and bolter OR chainsword. (Expect SW to have Ultra-grit too tho) It makes Chaos excel where it should, in CC against their misguided cousins.
Sorry for jumping in. I think it's great the passion you guys have for the game, I think it's great you are passionate about your armies, I'd just like to see some civilities observed towards other players.
Oh and I play DE/DA/SM/IG.
@ Mac
The reason that DA/BA assault cannons use the new rending is because it was a BGB and now a BRB USR, those rules are bound to the rulebook, not the codex, and thus are retroactive.
The rules on Land Speeder missiles, Land Raider transport capacity, etc are bound to the codex, and thus are *not* retroactive to the previous codex's.
With respect to Chaos, its not about the lost free champions, look at everything else Chaos lost. There really are no true "cult" units outside of basic Troops anymore. A Noise Marine is really only a Noise Marine if in a tac squad now, Noise Marines in Terminator Armor now lose their fearless, ability to field sonic weapons, and lose their I5 if the Icon dies (very easy now). In fact, Sonic Weapons can't be taken on anything other than basic infantry now. God specific vehicle upgrades (Destroyer, Coruscating Warp Flame, etc) are gone, cultists for AL are gone, differentiated Daemons are gone, etc. While SM's basically lose only a couple traits, gain a crapton of HQ's, a huge variety of new units, and better versions of everyone elses units (Vindi's that auto-pass terrain tests, 12 capacity land raiders, etc)
And while yes, its nice that Chaos gets CCW/BP/Bolter, they also don't get ATSKNF or Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics, fair tradeoff I think, and then Vanilla SM's also get free weapons on top of that and DA/BA squads don't get Combat/Chapter Tactics.
I think that there will not be an errata or FAQ issued to cover the new codex.
What I do thin is that there will be a grey box inside the new codex that identifies which new units or characters can be used inconjunction with the older marine codices. Similiar to the grey box inside the DeamonHunters codex that id's the units available to them from the marines codex.
Does that make sense?
later, Tim Weston
@ What I do thin is that there will be a grey box inside the new codex that identifies which new units or characters can be used inconjunction with the older marine codices.
On the subject of errata, I've had several people who've looked at the book tell me all kinds of interesting info about it, but not one has mentioned that it included errata in any form for the current existing "Chapters of Renown" Space Marines (e.g., Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc.). So while I've yet to see the inside of the book for myself, I would have to say, "don't hold your breath" expecting such errata.
PREVIEW COPIES, AUG. 23
My local Battle Bunker and other GW stores as well I'm sure will be displaying preview copies of the new Space Marine Codex as soon as this coming Saturday, August 23. Then, all will be revealed to all.
"Why not convert up some iron warriors with exotic heavy weapons and call them noise marines? Or make a squad with ornate bolters with hellfire rounds and use them as thousand sons? Or some guys with tons of bionic parts and call them Plague marines? This is what I mean when I say the list makes you be more creative."
This is exactly "half-arsed fluff" I was referring to that many players use to break theme. Why should I do this just to remain competitive? The current Chaos lists (Marines and Daemons) actively discourage players from having any theme in their armies.
As for the loss of 'free champions', only four of the nine chaos legions actually had this option (or did people overlook that?), but they were limited in what they could field (none of them had Obliterators or Raptors, for example.) But this encouraged players to theme their armies and helped them to stay competitive. No, the 'cult' legions are impossible to acuratelly field, because of the loss of options.
To hell with it, I'm just gunna use the old Chaos dex exclusively, and try to avoid some of the crazy power-sinks. It's just that much better. Besides, as some people say, the new book is Chaos "renegades" which means that our old dex is perfectly acceptable, since it's based on Legions ;)
FLUFF FOR THE FLUFF GOD!
@brassscorpian
I was just thinking that they would not put out a change in another document only that it would be in the new codex.
I don't expect anything either. I think there is cgoing to be some comments but the DA codex is unique in itself. I am not that familiar with the BA codex to make call on them. I will look it over and think about it though.
thanks,
Tim Weston
Sorry Timmy, no magical grey box is in the Marine book.
Am I the only person who is tired of hearing about how players want to have special characters in their armies but they want to change their names so that they can fit into their own specific chapter.
What's the point of having a special character like Pedro Cantor unless he's a Crimson Fist? He has his own special rules and weapons that are unique to him hence being referred to as a "special character". All of his optional extras are designed to reward a player that has spent the time painting a figure and collecting the necessary force to field the character. Now it seems like everyone is willing to rip off a character, steal his stats and abilities and then slip them into their army. I mean, what's the point?
Personally, I feel it was a mistake to allow players to use special characters whenever they want to as it really can unbalance the game. Yes, they're wonderful in campaigns adding a little character to the narative but in a more competitive atmosphere I really feel that they unbalance the game.
I second walksinthedarkness.
If people can just pretend that special characters are different guys with the exact same stats then GW should have just made the special characters stat line the stat line for the generic HQ. Its completely and utterly redundant!
Well, at least the special characters are very high in points cost so that should be a consideration.
I see your point though. Although, it will be hard to use a special character for the Iron hands as we didn't get any... Pedro Cantor would be the most suitable though to suit the Iron Hands.
Sternguards! zomg!!!1
hi i have played smace marines since the 4th edition all i see is more expensive (cool) models and theres no point saying DA get nothing they get an enitre bike army or terminator army !!!! so shut up and blood angels get an assault marine army (bet that scares tau) and templars (which i also play) get the best looking commander and 20 man squads. my point is every army gets something and if you want to waste your time quarelling then you havnt read this last point properly and on that note the thunderfire cannon and special characters and scout bikes and eterans and drop pods and everything else all looks SWEEEEEEEEET!!!!
@davethepathway
Sure every army gets something.
That doesn't mean its all equal.
Daemonhunters get S6 stormbolter wielding troops with True Grit. Does it make them on par with the current Chaos codex in any way? No. Point for Point, Chaos marines will massacre Grey Knights.
Is it fair that SM's get 12 capacity land raiders when nobody else does for the same price, or 12 capacity drop pods when SW, BT, DA and BA armies make do with 10 for the same price? (and lets be real, unit price isn't something that GW balances between codex's, some units are the same price in every army just because GW feels they should be, such as Land Raiders, even if they are of lesser value in one army compared with another)
If you want to come off sounding like something other than a Space Marine fanboi who can't spell, articulate and think out your arguments better.
"Is it fair that SM's get 12 capacity land raiders when nobody else does for the same price, or 12 capacity drop pods when SW, BT, DA and BA armies make do with 10 for the same price?"
To point out a very minor correction to this, not all tanks are the same points cost between the current codexs anyway (i won't be getting any of the new marines myself as i have enough BT,IG and tau to catch up painting on to last me a life time before i get called a "fanboi").
For example, Grey Knight LR crusader is 255pts and has the special rule so that the hurricane bolters can fire regardless of how far it has moved or what other weapons it is firing. The current standard marine and BT codexs have LR crusaders at 265 without the special hurricane bolter rule. Thats just one thing that i remembered off the top of my head, if you compare these to the space wolves or the dark angels codexs (i don't have them myself) or can be bothered to download the blood angel codex i'm sure you'll see further price splits for standard stuff.
So as this is already in effect, i don't really have a problem with the new marine codex carrying on the trend. It just makes each chapter that little bit more different to play with and against.
well said shaefer
""For example, Grey Knight LR crusader is 255pts and has the special rule so that the hurricane bolters can fire regardless of how far it has moved or what other weapons it is firing. The current standard marine and BT codexs have LR crusaders at 265 without the special hurricane bolter rule.""
The reason for this is not because Grey Knights are special, its because they are still using the original LRC rules published in codex: Armageddon, whereas later books had theirs updated. The reason for the Hurricane Bolters rule in the DH book is that under 3rd ed one could only fire one weapon while on the move, and this was changed in 4th and thus the rule was dropped.
You'll also notice that GK Assault Cannons are Heavy3 with no Rending.
Currently, most of the price differences are a result of one codex simply not having been updated in forever. Marine codex's that are similar in age (DA,BA,CSM or any of the 3rd ed SM books) all the same prices for identical units.
"The reason for this is not because Grey Knights are special, its because they are still using the original LRC rules published in codex: Armageddon, whereas later books had theirs updated. The reason for the Hurricane Bolters rule in the DH book is that under 3rd ed one could only fire one weapon while on the move, and this was changed in 4th and thus the rule was dropped."
fair point, didn't think of it like that so that so ignore my LR crusader example and good spot on the grey knight assault cannon stats, i never actually spotted that :)
..there are still differences in the recent codexs. The Templars codex isn't very old and they have 50 pt rhinos, 30 pt drop pods and so my mate tells me the new dark angels have 35 pt rhino's and 50 pt drop pods. Same stuff, different points.
The BT's techmarine costs 70 pts standard while the current marine codex's tech is 65. Standard templar marines are 16pts a piece while vanilla marines 15pts, BT scouts/neophytes are 10pts each with lower bs/ws 3 while vanilla marines cost 13 with ws/bs 4 and can infiltrate.
don't get me wrong, i'm not saying one codex is better than another, i love my BT's to death (normally my own) and i know they have some very nice rules to compensate for differences in pts cost or varying FOC choice (ie no scout squads, no scout bikers, no whirlwind, no devastators but gaining LRC as troop transport choice and addition of the emperor's champion).
But as mentioned before, we currently have differences in pts or equipment options between the very new codexs and the slightly old and very old and people still have fun and collect the armies regardless. So this new marine codex is just following the trend thats already there.
And to go back to the thread topic for a brief moment..i'm soooo glad they finally decided to make a 100% plastic LRC..the metal hurricane bolters really got on my last nerve when building them. :)
Have all the people complaining that Codex Marines are getting toys that their specialised BA/DA armies can't have, considered that they may become available to all Marine chapters once the new Marine codex is released?
I think why us "vanilla marine" players get all this cool stuff is because we don't get the all the different units that BA/DA/BT/SW's have. We don't get all Terminator armys or Long Fangs that can shoot at different units or 20-Marine units or jumppackers as troops. If you think about the choices that we had in past codexes you see why we're called vanilla, its because we are generic, bland, with nothing special to call our own. Thats why their giving us some of these new toys, so new players have a reason to play (and more importently for them buy) generic Space Marines. Its not to break the game or pissoff the other marine players. If you notice its mostly non-marine players who are complaining about this new codex. I think your only whinning because against Space Marine may not be an auto-win anymore. And as it has been stated before unless your playing an apocalypse game, and a big one at that, you could never have all these goodies in one army. So let's play nice with the other kiddies and quit jumping up and down on someone elses words just because your scared of a challenge.
Just a thought, but after re-reading the pages again it looks like to me that only the Redeemer gets the 12 passenger up-grade and maybe not the Crusader or the regular Land raider. Even if they do its just so you can take ICs with a full sized unit in the "Battle Taxi From Hell". Because of codex crep all Chapters will get it sooner or later, in some cases much later ;)
With regards to the BT Rhino VS DA Rhino, every rhino from the DA codex and after, BA, CSM, and now SM's, is 35pts, its the same situation with the GK LRC and the current LRC.
That said, the DA,BA,CSM books were all designed with some version of 5th ed in mind, BT's were made just after 4th ed. That the SM book, which should be in the same vein as the DA/BA/CSM books, has so many new and upgraded goodies when the other books mainly just got gutted, is whats making people upset, not that anyone thinks its going to be impossible to beat Marines.
Humm! More drop Pods to add to my one & only FW one for my Black Templars. & Maybe I can use them for my Sisters as well.
Wouldnt it be nice if the Sisters could get a L/R Redeemer. Very Fluffy!!!!
@ Have all the people complaining that Codex Marines are getting toys that their specialised BA/DA armies can't have, considered that they may become available to all Marine chapters once the new Marine codex is released?
Yeah, that's been considered. Perhaps you may have seen the several dozen discussions of that possibility all over this and other forums, including above in this very thread? However, there's not a shred of evidence to indicate that will happen. A glance at the posts above in this thread concerning errata might prove interesting.
Dare I say the other possible reason for a change in point cost from chapter to chapter might have something to do with the fluff? If a unit is very rare and isn't meant to appear on every battle field then the points are increased to discourage it's use in smaller battles.
Everything that I've ever read about Space Marines and the Imperium is that the revere their vehicles as in some cases they no longer have the technology to recreate them. In other words, if that chapter loses a Land Raider in a minor clash then they'll never get it back again, they only have a finite number of vehicles so surely they'd only commit them to larger scale battles where they may make a difference?
Just a thought...
Okay Guys. The 3rd Ed Chaos Codex was a little Broken. The 9 Obliterater, Vindicator, Basilisk, defier and Predator list was completely broken. And there were more lists from the codex that I can't be bothered to list as well. Now I think GW did a fairly good job at balancing the codex out really. Yes you lost a LOT of options, however to go from the most complicated codex with more options than is physically play testable to something simpler was difficult. I also feel that GW did go too far in certain situations as well, for example the lack of legion terminators. But that was more due to the fact that they didn't make any of the options for stuff like that as models. It is now GW's policy that all options and models from the codexes have current models. This is so that players can immediately identify which options a squad has without too many issues. This was also the reason why squads now have icons. As for the whole summoned daemon issue as far as I can tell you are lucky to even have them. The chaos mortals list is rumored to not even include generic daemons.
As to all the Blood Angel and Dark Angel players. Yes your codex looks bland compared to the new marine codex, but it does have to cover 6 Legions worth of chapters, not just the 1 that Blood and Dark Angels covers. Yes they get some new cool stuff like the land raider redeemer and jump packing veterans... But they don't get Death Company or Baal Predators, or assault squads as troops that the Blood Angels get.
Nor do they get terminator Troops, or ravenwing both of which under 5th ed are actually pretty nasty.
Also if I hear another Dark Angel player moan about the lack of veterans in their codex I will scream. Technically Dark Angel veteran squads don't even exist because all their veterans are in the Deathwing in terminator amour!
Maybe we should all remember that GW does also do play testing for their new codexes. I played with the new marines 10 or so times against the Chaos and Dark Angels and I really did struggle. What can appear to be sick on paper is backed up by a fairly hefty points value. Don't lose faith. In fact the more cool new stuff you have the worse your army is really going to be. The thunderfire cannon looks great but is a worth a kill point on its own. The same thing is true of the drop pods.
The new drop pods look great though, my deathwatch will be happy...!
''. I played with the new marines 10 or so times against the Chaos and Dark Angels and I really did struggle. ''
how have you played a codex that codesn't come out until next months(in the spearhead box) and furtherly until october??? since it hasnt been released to the public and wont be until then, explain how~?
u fuckin whack arse bitchez take joke, hahahaha. go get a girlfriend and stop spunking all over games workshops man breasts, faggots
says you looking on here how about you go send your unpleasentries somewhere else or is that to big a word for you
Such language! Do you kiss your dad with that mouth? You should not be posting messages so late anyway, I'm sure you have a buisy day at school to prepare for. Come on...you know all of the inapropriate touching in the gym locker room. Don't wory though, I'm sure your gym teacher will call you the next day! Oh and I hear you can get married in CA. congrats!
Working on my 5th company of Marines now, I still get excited for new Marine releases. Something about the power armoured guys just has a special place in my heart, right beside Gork and Mork.
Over all this time and money i have never bought or converted drop pods, so a few of those are definitely on my bill, and hopefully GW releases bags of the Cavalry bases too.
I'm pratically giddy right now, and Black Reach isn't making things better, giving me a bunch more marines to play with.
Wow I really should be doing something else besides reading all these comments, but anyways. I'd like to point out one thing, that the BA codex was just put out to update them, because they are the last codex to be printed. Just think about it for a second, would GW, really just give a way a codex for free?? So in saying that, who is to say if the BAs will get cool new goodies when their codex finally gets printed and a price put on it.
I kind of have mixed feelings about the new SM codex. I see in my own little group that no body plays regular SM, because the other 4 codexs were by far better, so I think they need some new toys that the other chapters shouldn't get. Fluff wise on the other hand, I don't know. If you can explain to me why say BA's wouldn't get an assault squad that couldn't assault when they deep strike, I'd like to hear it. Likewise, why would only 4 chapter and there successor chapters tech marines wouldn't all have access to the same stuff.
As for playing with a disadvantage, I've been doing that for a long time, I play FT, and could only have 1 tank per detachment. Even thought I didn't have certain things, I still could beat almost anyone, except the guys who had more experience than me.