AoS: General’s Handbook 2.0

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Games Workshop is calling for your feedback for the General’s Handbook and they want your help!

via Games Workshop (Warhammer Age of Sigmar Facebook)

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In the months since the release of the General’s Handbook, the game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar has gone from strength to strength. Covering three ways to play – open play, narrative play and matched play – this book is the trusty companion for thousands of Warhammer Age of Sigmar gamers the world over.

But these new rules were always intended to evolve as time went on, so now, we’re looking to the people who use them most for help (that’s you, the players).

What would you change about, or add to, the General’s Handbook?

Let us know in the comments below, whether it be the narrative Battleplans, the points for Warscrolls or Battalions, Path to Glory campaign rules, the Three Rules of One, or anything else, and we’ll send all your ideas on to the team writing the new book.

Whether it be the narrative Battleplans, the points for Warscrolls or Battalions, Path to Glory campaign rules, the Three Rules of One, or anything else, we’ll send all your ideas on to the team writing the new book. To let us know, click HERE (to go to our Warhammer Age of Sigmar Facebook page) and put your thoughts in the comments.

 

AoS General’s Handbook

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This is some great news for AoS fans. We’ve seen what the fan response has been when they asked the community for questions for their FAQs now they are asking for feedback to improve the General’s Handbook. The book itself was a huge boon for the entire AoS System. We’ve written about it extensively before. We’ve also highlighted some of the key reasons this book is awesome. Now Games Workshop wants to make it even better and I can’t wait to see what the community comes up with next!

 

What changes would you make or what things would you like to add to the General’s Handbook?

  • Xodis

    Fix Summoning, it should not feel like Fantasy “Deep Striking”.

    Allow allies, with a cost just like Formations are handled.

    Flesh out Path of Glory more and include more upgrade charts, allowing more powerful upgrades for those who stick to strict schemes.

    • Xodis

      As far as Summoning goes I would allow all Casters or characters powerful enough to just call in reinforcements (Like Archeon) to come with a base “Summoning Points” pool that adds up. This will keep the points cost down for people who want casters but dont want to summon, will allow players to built a pool for “free” reinforcements that are still limited, and prevent a lot of wasted points when your Summoner gets sniped.

    • I haven’t heard of a good fix to summoning yet. Free points is not a fix. I would be 200% against any rule that lets one bring in free points because as history shows us it will be abused and maxed out.

      • Xodis

        In a matched game you would only get a limited pool of “Free” points from the casters. Even in the most abusive point list I pick all casters (6) and received 25 points a pop (150) I would still only get 150 points of summoned monsters that could easily never happen as Heros and Casters are still able to be sniped and spells can still fail.

        • Where does the 25 point value come from?

          • Xodis

            My fix. All Casters who have summoning abilities or in specific cases someone like Archaon who calls and people come running, get a preset allocation of Summoning Points just for being taken. This means the “Free” points are limited by the number of casters/models taken that actually provide these points implementing a fixed limit known beforehand.

          • I’d be for “summoning points” but only if there was a balancing mechanism.

            Ex: I dn’t summon at all. If you got “200” summoning points or whatever, I should be able to get something to compensate (otherwise we are playing an X point game but you really have X + 200 pts)

          • Karru

            Maybe a tiered system? All summoning casters have a set “point” amount they generate each turn. Every turn they can either spend it on summoning units or they can save it for future use. Similar to the KDK Bloodtithe table. You can spend it as it comes but you can only get weak units, like Skeletons, Zombies, basic Daemons etc. Wait for another turn and you can bring something like Bloodcrushers. Wait even longer and you can start bringing in the big stuff, like Terrorgeists and Bloodthirsters.

            Basically the idea is that depending on the amount of casters generating summoning points, you can get your stuff on the board faster. If your casters are getting sniped, you can try to bring as much stuff as possible, but of course they are very weak. Other thing they could do to prevent mass summoner spam and thus it could be possible to bring something like Terrogeist on turn 2 is to set turn limits on them. Three Tiers, first is for basic units, second is elite units and third is for monsters and the like. You can start bringing in tier 1 units right out of the gate, tier 2 units can start to come in on turn 2 and so on.

            Then, to further limit it, place a cap how much can be earned at once and in total. At max, you should be able to get something like 4 units of basic units, 2 elites or 1 big guy. You can’t just sit on your summoning points and then bring it all down at once and overwhelm your opponent. You have to take a risk, “Do I want to bring more meatshield units now or do I wait for the bigger guys?”, “Is my caster safe enough for me to wait longer?”. These are the questions you should be asking yourself when using summoners.

          • Damistar

            I like your idea. I’ll have to give it a try.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Free units are free units, no matter the mechanic you are using to get them.

          • Karru

            Yes, but there is a major difference. First of all, you cannot just keep summoning entire armies per turn. With this system, Summoners would increase in point cost as well to reflect their ability to bring in more stuff. This makes summoning actually a viable strategy for certain armies.

            Of course, if GW wasn’t so generous with the summoning, it wouldn’t be that big of an issue. If there was a selected few units that could be summoned, for example Death would only be able to bring Skeletons, Zombies and Dire Wolves for basic units, Grave Guard and Black Knights for elite and Terrogeist as the big guy.

            This way it wouldn’t be possible to flood the board with units and you cannot come up with the perfect counters to enemy units easily. Also, this is 3 turns that the opponent has to rush the opponents side to kill the summoners. If you are turtling in your own corner waiting for your opponent to come to you, you deserve what is to come.

          • Xodis

            True, but that only works if I actually got Summoning to work successfully. It’s too easy to snipe a Summoner (who are usually pretty squishy), counter spells, fail the spell roll, etc… So I’m taking these Casters who cost the same, if not more, points than your Hero who is guaranteed to be on the table and useful. It’s really a Moderate Risk/Moderate Reward scenario, which is fair IMO.

          • The guys in my area were pretty much only succeptible to one of those things: failing the roll. Which is typically really easy to make so that was rare.

            Sniping them and countering them requiring being in range to do so and they would hide their summoners in the back corner and preferably out of sight since they’d make sure there was terrain there to block line of sight.

            There was no risk / reward for that type of play, it was all reward with infinitely small risk (the potential of not getting your casting roll off for two or three turns while you blocked the enemy and prevented them from getting close so you could summon-spam double your army size)

          • Xodis

            Thats where the limited summoning pool comes into play as I replied lower in the thread.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Just take two cheap summoner if you are worried about bel sniped

          • Xodis

            2 cheap Summoners can still easily be sniped by a dedicated long range squad or 2, which also works to counter the Risk/Reward of Summoners with free points.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            You can summon anything from your Alliance. You need a Dragon? Summoned. You need a tar pit? Summoned. You need a heavy hitter? Summoned.

            You are trading reliability for versatility. You get to pick the exact unit that you need at the exact moment you need it.

            There needs to be a counter to that and your summoner potentially dying is the risk you run. 🙂

          • Aezeal

            For 200 summoning points make the model 200 points more expensive.. or 150.. or 180..

          • Xodis

            I was thinking of only giving the casters a max of like 50 lol

          • Aezeal

            I was talking about 200 points for the whole game.. basicly summoned at once. You can’t really summon 50 points.. not much units are 50 poins.

          • Xodis

            Exactly, so even if you took 3 normal Summoners who give 20-25 points, you only end up with 75 Free summoning points tops, meaning that anything more than that would cost as normal. This should keep Summoning in check.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            You are still getting few stuff for nothing. Not fair to armies who cannot summon

          • Xodis

            As already said by others, there isn’t much anyone can do with so little free points, also its already not fair that Summoners are priced as high as they normally are for something they can’t normally do. This is also balanced by the fact they can easily be sniped out.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I play a lot of AoS. If your summoner is getting sniped a lot, you need to plan your positioning better. 🙂

            Any free points is not fair. One unit, even something as minor as a Zombie unit, can sway the game.

          • Xodis

            I find that less true in AoS than any other wargame I play. Most units that can be summoned cheaply are nothing more than speed bumps in most occasions, the units that can counter your army will require a lot of point investment even with a limited supply of free points.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Maybe you are not aggressive enough with how many points you are setting aside?

          • Xodis

            I don’t summon usually, I just see the problem.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            You are very vociferous about this issue. I think you would like it more if you used it more.

          • Xodis

            Just because I dont use them doesnt mean I dont play against them or understand whats going on. I can say that the Matched play rules have completely destroyed any kind of summoning in my meta and this is the fixes we have implemented. Much like Deep Strike in 40K, there are some good reasons to use it, but Summoning (requiring a Summoner) further limits those choices into there really isn’t any good reasons for it.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Which I get. There are ways to fix summoning but free points are not the right way.

          • Xodis

            As Atticus put it, there hasn’t been a way Ive seen since. I have found our fix has made Summoning an “option” again, but heavy reliance on it never works. Regardless of Summoning, a well built and diverse army usually wins out against a Summoning heavy army even when they get enough free points for a single squad.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Summoning is just one of those difficult things to balance.

          • Xodis

            I agree, but I think its possible and I don’t expect GW to follow our way, but it would be nice if they gave it a shot. Seriously, we have yet to see any shenanigans that break the system (50 for characters like Archaon, 25 for powerful casters, 15 for fodder casters) currently.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            With your system I feel like you don’t get enough points to do anything meaningful with.

            How much does a full unit of Skeletons cost?

          • Xodis

            Everything is the same as in GH, so for 80 points you can have 1-40 skeletons.

            Thats the point of the low “free” point system, enough points to offset the problems with summoning, not enough points to dominate.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I am sort of ok with this for Death because they have more limited choices but feel like Chaos ruins it.

          • Xodis

            Other than furies and beasts of Nurgle most everything cost around 100 for Chaos. Could even be limited to only Sorcerers with a specific mark can summon specific types of deamons. So no Bloodthirster for the Nurgle Witch.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            That might be the balancing mechanic.

            I am not sure. We’d need to playtest this. So many variables.

          • Xodis

            Exactly give it a try, your group might bring something to the table we never thought of.

          • Xodis

            Even with this set up we have a hard time of finding a way to make a “Summoning Army” so I’m thinking a formation would be the only way. Force the purchase of a lot of Summoners, and get a bonus to the “free points”. Someone mentioned summoned units earlier getting destroyed once their Summoner was killed, but I think forcing those Deamon instability rolls on all summoned creatures would work better.

            Take 6 summoners
            Get Unlimited Summoning Points
            at the begining of each turn with this formation force an instability roll.
            6 Summoners alive: Auto pass
            5 Summoners alive: 2+
            4 Summoners alive: 3+
            and so on.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            That sounds awful. Why should you get as many free units as you want just because you paid for a formation?

          • Xodis

            It would be the only way to allow a full “summoning” army really. I think that might be best saved for a scenario since its really a battle against the clocks taking out Summoners before they overwhelm you.

          • Shawn

            How about instead of free points. the summoned units are more like a reserve unit in 40k and add to the cost of the army? This reserve unit is then summoned in as per normal summoning

          • Xodis

            Sarcasm? Thats how it is played currently under GH, this is a conversation GW started about what to improve with the upcoming GH2.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Summoning is great as is. You get the diversity of getting the right tool to use each game without the absurdity of getting free units.

      • Xodis

        Except that if your Summoner is killed you lost all those points practically.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          That’s the risk you run when you have the ability to summon a unit that can directly counter my army.

          • Xodis

            What about Summoners that dont have that direct counter? Not all Summoners have a Spell for everything.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Having the option to pick between 3 or 4 units in the middle of a game is still waaaay more versatile then picking from the same units before the game begins.

          • Xodis

            Yes and no. It does add versatility in unit choice on the fly but also limits a lot of choices during the battle. Summoners must be kept safe in order to have that option, meaning left on the far side of any combat making their other abilities useless. They can be sniped as mentioned before if they get close enough to do ANYthing else that the player is paying points for.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            If your opponent is spending time sniping your necromancer, then you need to bring more than one and push into his lines faster. Make him deal with the rest of your army.

          • Karru

            You do realise that usually these “sniping” units are things like Cannons or other long range weapons that can actually do it. It’s not like they are focusing on just killing the Necromancers with their entire armies. They still most likely have their battleline units that use some insane combo to make them kill anything that comes into contact with them or they themselves are nigh invincible.

            Also, good luck “pushing the line” with your gimped army since you spend points to bring it in from reserves and lost the initiative roll.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Warmachines could probably use some retooling. They are very good for what they do.

          • Xodis

            What about primary summon armies? Its an especially fluffy style that cant work at all.

    • Kreoss12

      I play Death, and frankly, all I think needs to be done to fix summoning is allow people to resummon units that have been destroyed earlier in the game. I get that I shouldnt get free points, but I should be able to recycle the points I already committed, if that makes sense.

      • Xodis

        That could work as well, but then you are giving Chaos armies the ability to re-summon their Giant Bloodthirster…..less people would be ok with that.

        • Kreoss12

          Maybe some things need to lose their summoning spells all together? I doubt anyone takes their Bloodthirster primarily cause it’s summonable. Or heck, make it more thematic and keep the spell but move it off the Bloodthirster itself onto some new cultist hero.

          • Xodis

            All good ideas. Someone should summon the Bloodthirster besides the thirster. Although there is no way to get a free bloodthirster with a limited points pool as i mentioned without investing quite heavily already.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Recycling is another way of saying free points.

        What I could see happening is a greater focus on healing units/returning wounds/bodies.

        • Xodis

          Not really, this argument isnt used against Necrons or the leagues of units with their FnP. It was also one of the saddest moments when Tyranids couldn’t get an upgrade for their gaunts to bring them back after the unit was destroyed.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            There’s a difference between having a unit that is difficult to kill and an entirely new unit coming to the board (even if it replaces a dead unit).

            That’s why I said I think the one way to get the old school feeling of summoning back but without actually bringing it back is to focus on healing units/returning dead bodies.

          • Xodis

            Not really, adding wounds to damaged models/units is the exact same as bringing back a dead model/unit and mechanically the same as negating wounds that SHOULD have happened, its all in perspective. Wounds are still there, attacks still happen, the only difference is usually the team healing has an advantage of not losing their unit until their next magic phase giving the healing/negating units another advantage.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Adding to an existing unit does not give you the versatility to engage units on the other side of the board (the way bringing a new unit onto the battlefield is).

            Plus, healing is a very common mechanic in other armies already and is non-controversial.

          • Xodis

            Sure it does as your unit is already where you wanted it to be strategically, while the Summoned unit has to begin in a new location (possibly better depending on the situation).

            Yes healing is common and even better, so summoning shouldnt be an issue.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Hardly ever will the summoned unit be in a worse position than the original unit. You are also being given the option of engaging a second unit, thus preventing them from achieving their aims.

            Also, there’s a wide gulf between giving 2 wounds back to a unit and summoning a Bloodthirster. 🙂

            Also, there is a static number of wounds that healing can heal per turn, which will almost always be far fewer than a new unit of summoned creatures.

          • Xodis

            Thats not true, especially if a player is trying to keep his summoner alive in the first place, the new unit could be way in the backfield away from all the action, making it useless for another turn or two.

            That second part is a great tactic, although its risky to engage multiple units like that.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            If you are turtling, your opponent will be up in your field, so summoning something by the summoner will be close to the thick of things (perhaps in an ideal place to flank). 🙂

          • Xodis

            Very true, could be a trap if they are waiting for your Summoner to get close and then snipe him lol. Could be a fun trap.

          • Kreoss12

            I also wouldnt mind if it was reworded to heal models lost from the unit. Basically I just want my necromantic army to, you know, play like necromancers? As long as I have ways to actively bring models back from the dead, it doesnt matter much to me if its whole units or individual models.

    • Frank Krifka

      I’d like to see summoning stay mostly as is, with points being taken from the list at the start, but destroyed units should be able to be “resummoned” in the next game turn (vs player phase) within say 5 inches of the destroyed unit, after being completely wiped out. That would make casters more useful past the first summon, (rather than the 1 phase throwaway they are now,) and also prevent the summoning player from bringing the unit up again where ever it wanted (being tied to the units previous position) and also give the opposing player a chance to move, capture objectives ect (by having to wait till the next game turn).

    • Matthew Pomeroy

      Maybe have a limit to how many units the wizard can “control” so a wizard could only summon say 3 units? total?

      • Xodis

        Not a bad idea, with the low “free point” total my idea would give the Summoners though, they wont be able to summon more than 2 of the cheapest units without investing extra points, so that might not be too much of an issue.

    • euansmith

      I actually like the “Fantasy Deepstrike” idea; with players paying from a pool of points. The player is then gambling the risk of losing their summoner(s) or having their spell blocked, against the flexibility of choosing which units they bring in and where.

      • Xodis

        I would like that too, if Summoning wasn’t even more Ham-stringed than Deep Striking. The reward just never seems to be high enough for the risks, especially in AoS where having your monsters get shot before being useful is rarely a thing. Its better to guarantee those points start on the board then let them do what they do best.

        • euansmith

          I guess that an alternative would be to make it so the Daemons can “summon” themselves; but that the Sorcerer grants bonuses to Daemons appearing within 12″, like an increased charge range or something.

  • Agent OfBolas

    GW is asking for feedback … well done! But … end of the world! 😀

  • ZeeLobby

    YES. This is what I’ve been waiting for, a second iteration. This hits my main issue right on the head. Super excited to see them carry this over to 40K.

    STILL kind of wished they didn’t have to ask so much though. Still feel like their internal testing is rather limited and now we’re just fixing the game for them. BUT, if that’s what needs to be done, so be it.

    • Aezeal

      It’s likely not that they NEED to ask… it’s probably more likely they ask so they can refute all the people who where whining about lack of interest in costumers etc.
      And AoS works very well for big armies… 1500 games are good and bigger probably even better.

      • ZeeLobby

        I dunno, the decisions they made that they changed after backlash in the final draft of the 40k FAQ really make it seem like they make changes based on word of mouth over actual testing. I agree that it may just be a way to shovel real complaints under the rug tho.

        And my comment was more that once fantasy lost ranks and block tactics it basically just became a slightly different 40K (well and if rumors are true they’ll soon be even closer). I used to play fantasy and 40k because of their differences in gameplay. No need anymore.

        • Shawn

          Differences still exist Zee, big differences. However, I think they can make 40k closer to AoS and still keep all the versatility and options.

          Now this new GH, surprises me. The old has only been out a year, yeah? They going to spit out a $25 book you got to buy every year, just to get the new changes?

          • ZeeLobby

            Hey. I’d take it. Other companies do similar things. Warmahordes releases card updates for factions once a year (of course the digital version is updated free).

            The reality is that living rulesets are the future. Itd be great if they offered updates for free .

        • Aezeal

          Well it’s not rank n file in that sense anymore… and I don’t play 40K.. so hard for me to comment on it .. but most people still seem to think the games very different. At least melee is very much a thing in AoS (ignore the things that have been said about shooting at first.. shooting alone will never be enough .. or at least for me so far).

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      PP asks what people what they want as well. They do it at Cons/Tournaments and they pay attention to their forums.

      • ZeeLobby

        Lol. They may ask them what they want, they definitely don’t give them what they ask for for the sake of the game though.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          But it is a nice sounding board of your most rabid fans. The commentary garnered there on those forums is superior to that of what’s happening on Facebook right now, lol

          • ZeeLobby

            Lol. True. Gotta start somewhere.

  • nuggy

    Have put some of these thing up on the fb post already but to compile them with good things others have said aswell:
    1. Measure base to base as standard.
    2. No models in combat range (3″ from enemies, or within enemies cc weapon range) may use ranged weapons. Shooting into combat have a chance of hitting friendlies (if at all allowed to shoot into cc)
    3. More allegiance rules.
    4. More spells (generic and faction specific)
    5. More items.
    6. More PTG rules!

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Bases need to return. GW already officially said “use whatever base seems appropriate” over in the 40k FAQ, seems easily adoptable to AoS.

      I don’t mind the shooting into melee rule but it does massively favor units that are effective in both ranged and melee (like Sea Guard).

  • Nyyppä

    I support this kind of action.

  • Valeli

    GW wants…. feedback?

    Surely mine ears deceive, else their lips doth jest.

  • Simon

    Good on you, GW.

  • I love that they are looking for feedback.

    I love that they are going to update this thing annually.

    I was a bit disappointed to see how the “official or nothing” crowd weren’t happy enough with base to base measuring being an optional rule and wanting it to be the only rule.

    I was a bit disappointed to see that people want to go back to paying model by model in points (i like being able to create an army list in 30 seconds without having to have an excel sheet or calculator doing minute calculations)

    I threw up in my mouth at the number of people on the fb comments clamoring for summoning giving back free points again and how they needed to let you spam summon spells again.

    * Create a data model and make points reflect that model. Adjust everything to reach this baseline. Overcosted and undercosted models should not exist or be very minor.

    * No shooting into combat or out of combat. This is ridiculous. I’d be ok with a unit being able to shoot into tis own combat.

    * Alternate activation. Kill off IGO UGO. Makes double initiative not as nasty.

    * do not bring back free points with summoning please. I cannot stand this type of game. I cannot stand easy mode being so easy and so obvious.

    * i’m not really a fan of paying by the model. I don’t like having to spend a ton of time in excel or whatever fine tuning lists.

    * all formations should cost APPROPRIATE ***** points. THERE SHOULD BE NO FREE ABILITIES!!!

    • ZeeLobby

      All sounds great to me. That’s sad people want broken summoning back :/, not that it’s fixed currently, but I’m shocked they can’t see how free stuff is bad…

      • Xodis

        Yeah broken and unlimited summoning is a game breaker, it just has to be forgotten. Summoning SHOULD be beneficial, but can’t just dominate the system.

        • I agree summoning should be beneficial, but I don’t think it should let you unbalance / skew the game’s points. Otherwise… why the hell would you ever NOT summon?

          • Xodis

            Because you Risk taking Casters who have a Summoning advantage, but may not pay off well in the end. A Regular Hero is better than a caster of the same points who failed to Summon at all.

          • Karru

            Except when it is Nagash and co.

            We saw what that did to the game. “Oh, you just doubled your army size in a single turn? Cool.”

          • Xodis

            Yeah, but with a limited Summoning Point system like I mentioned above it would prevent his major shenanigans.

          • I guess I just don’t see how summoners fail. I played in an area where several guys ran full on summoner armies. THey’d park their summoners in a corner far away and just spam units for two or three turns before you could even get close to them. We’re talking doubling their starting army size by the end of turn 2 and making a “2000” point game 4000-2000 points by that time.

            Not to mention that casters that can summon weren’t limited to ONLY summoning. They had other useful abilities.

            A caster that can summon that doesn’t summon but is buffing with shield or other powers is still plenty useful.

            Doubling army sizes was just an extra broken bonus.

          • Xodis

            That’s what the point system would balance things IMO. Take your example of a player putting 2 casters in the back to ensure he gets to summon.

            So he has given up field positioning to ensure a slightly larger army….seems balanced, as now you own the majority of the field and can bog him and his bonus units down with all sorta of ranged attacks or just secure and defend positions.
            Its also a bad idea to do so since he can only get maybe 1 or 2 units summoned in total depending on what he takes. No GH on me right now but possible a few more of the super cheap units that mainly just absorb wounds.

            Yes a Caster CAN be useful outside of summoning, which also works into putting a caster closer to the advancing army which means closer for your army to target risking his own health and chance to even use those free summoning points.

          • Having played a many series of games against the summoner army for Azyr Comp balancing I will say them having to keep summoners in the back to summon was not a disadvantage at all.

            If there’s a cap on what can be summoned then sure… but there wasn’t. Also what was common was summoning in greater demons and heralds who would come on and start summoning (summon chaining).

            In any case all things being equal, the ability to add free points to your army will always be disproportionately better than not doing it.

          • Xodis

            Not really in this case, most of the problems came from an uncapped resource, by putting a cap (and a rather low one IMO) on that resource most of the shenanigans die out and become a small nuisance and nothing more.

          • Karru

            Summoning stuff in WHFB with Vampire Counts was useful yet not broken. It was thanks to the actual balancing of it. Currently you can bring pretty much all units in the Undead army, which is definitely not good. That could be one way to make it more balanced. Actually limit the amount of the actual units you would be able to summon.

          • How I had Azyr Comp do it was that casters could only maintain a summoned entity and could not add to it until it was destroyed.

          • Karru

            What about a system where if the summoner dies all the summoned units die as well? Basically the summoner is the one that makes them stay on the battlefield. This way if people start spamming summoners, all you have to do is kill them and as they fall, the units they brought die with them.

          • I suggested that but it was always nixed because then you had to keep track of what models were summoned by what summoner which goes against AOS “keep it simple” mentality.

          • Karru

            While it is no problem to follow your monsters losing wounds during the game? Limiting both the amount you can summon and this style system wouldn’t make it that difficult.

          • Just iterating what the counter arguments were. Summoning was something we had like twelve different versions for and no one was ever happy with them.

      • It made winning easy for them. No one likes when their OP crutch is kicked out from under them.

        • Karru

          Easy win = Easy life. Skills don’t matter when you have more money than your opponent and can literally summon them to death.

          • ZeeLobby

            Ah. The make it rain approach

      • euansmith

        I guess if folks want to play with free summoning, they can just play “Open” or “Narrative”.

        • luke snell

          Of all the lengthy responses that have been posted here, your succinct suggestion at the obvious is the obvious, common-sensical response to summoning issues.

    • Karru

      As someone who still hasn’t played a single game of AoS, but still follows the rules, here is my opinion on your suggestions.

      The base to base is good thing to have as a standard. It does not hurt anyone and makes the pre-game set up a bit faster since you don’t have to ask/argue with your opponent whether or not you use this rule.

      Model by Model system isn’t that bad. If have always counted my own points with a calculator just fine and it actually has quite the benefits. One of the things is the “ease” of list building. Since AoS is based on fixed unit pricing, it can get difficult to get yourself to a set point limit. For example, if I want to make 2000pts army and I find myself at 1900pts with only 150+pts units to fill it, it gets a bit more tricky. Normally I would just stick a few models to a unit or just give them upgrades, neither is possible in AoS right now.

      Not surprising at all that so many would want their auto-win back. It’s way too hard to actually have to think when making an army, so summoning your way to victory is definitely the way to go! Not.

      From what I have understood, currently summoning is useless. You don’t want to use it due to the summoner dying and you losing your units as well as the caster. One option I could think of is maybe having the ability to bring back dead units? For example, a unit of skeletons die and now you can bring them back with the summoning spell. Yes, it is free points, but you could theoretically never get them since a wise player would try to avoid killing off single units. Then they could limit it to very basic units, like Skeleton and such. Basically no Terrorgeist popping out of nowhere.

      They could also limit it with more fleshed out spell casting, something like the old WHFB system was. Player 1 rolls a set number of dice, limited by the wizard level, totals up his dice roll + wizard level and then Player 2 can attempt to dispel the power in the same manner. I don’t think this is in anyway confusing. It would also make spell casting way more interesting and interactive.

      I have voiced my opinion on Alternating Activation before, so I won’t comment on that.

      Formations should always cost points. Free points are a plague. The argument that the “point cost” is the restrictions the formation has, but that is total bs. Some of the formations contain so many good units that there is no reason to take them outside the formation. Why would you? It’s free abilities since you are already taking the models.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      I agree. Buying units in chunks is great. Makes building lists easy. It also makes balancing units much easier for GW.

      Free Summoning should never, ever come back.

  • Aezeal

    Zeelobby… no excuses anymore.. make your wallet weep….

    • Hawt Dawg

      Ha ha ha… spot on!

  • Jonathan Loquet

    What the hell is this dimension?! Great Scott Marty what we have done?

  • dave long island

    They need to shrink the total rules with each new edition. The rules should be like the Newspeak dictionary. The goal should be a rule set that is just one page long. For exmple, just as with Newspeak, you don’t need the words good and bad. You can just use good and ungood. And you don’t need have the word very in there either: you can just say ‘double good’ or ‘double ungood’. Similarly you don’t need the word extremely as in extremely good. And you don’t need the word terrible. You can just say ‘double plus good’ or ‘double plus ungood’. Also, to save space in the rulebook you could spell good as ‘gud’.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    GW’s fix to summoning is the single greatest thing they added to the game, hands down, bar none.

    There is no way to balance getting free units. Even if everyone has access to it, it will just devolve the game into who can summon the most stuff faster.

    Awful.

    Summoning as per the rules in the General’s Handbook is great. You trade the reliability ot bringing all your models to the field, for the versatility to bringing the right tool for the right job exactly when you need it (at the risk of losing your summoner(s). It is 100% fair and great.

    Bringing back free units will kill the game.

    • Karru

      From what I have gathered, in its current form summoning isn’t great. It’s worse than 40k reserves. You are basically putting quite the hefty sum of your point into it and you run the insane risk of not getting anything and thus losing the game. More points you place into it, more you are gimping your table army. This means less targets for the enemy to attack/shoot and thus they can more easily snipe your summoners. Dead summoners = lost game.

      I wouldn’t say it’s 100% fair, but it is much better system than the non-general’s handbook one. It definitely needs an improvement to make it worthwhile to take.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Reserves are quite popular in 40k actually.

        You can’t have the versatility of summoning anything and the reliability of it always working. You get one or the other.

        I would be 100% ok with this:

        You buy your army normally. Before the game begins you can reserve any unit(s) you want. During the game, the Summoner can summon any unit in reserve as per the normal rules.

        If the summoner is killed, then with his dying breath, he summons everything still in reserve but those units summoned cannot charge or run that turn.

        It is 100% reliable but lacks versatility.

        • Karru

          Reserves are one of those things that splits people in half usually. If you are not playing Marines and Drop Pod heavy lists, reserves aren’t that popular. One unit in reserve led by a character? Sure, not a problem. 2 Fliers in your list? Sure, sure.

          Half of your army in reserve?! No way to bring them in reliably? Well, I don’t want to be in your shoes when my army wipes you before you even get attack me.

          Reserves are always a hit and miss type of situation. If you don’t have some way to guarantee that they come on board when you want them, they are a risk. You run the risk of them never taking any major part in the battle and instead just sit in the sidelines.

          Your system could work. I just think that some armies, like most of Death, should be able to summon at least their basic units like Zombies and Skeletons. This isn’t broken as those units aren’t exactly killing machines.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            If summoning were limited to chaff units, then I could be ok with it so long as there was some kind of cap (perhaps on the total number of bodies you can summon).

          • Karru

            Basically making it like it was with Vampire Counts in WHFB. You had the choice between summoning Zombies and Skeletons while you had the ability to “resurrect” dead models to your existing units. One way to achieve this might be to make it so you always summon a minimal unit and then you can start adding to them something like D6 models or something. Then you can have a maximum of 2 different units per summoner on the table.

            This does not mean that you would actually have to keep track of who summoned who. If you have 3 summoners on the field that have summonend 6 units and now one of them dies, you can only summon more units if you have only 3 of the summoned units left.

            Basically limiting it to basic units like Zombies, Skeletons, Bloodletters, Horrors, Plaguebearers and Daemonettes for example that when summoned would always be the minimum size unit. Then if you cast additional summoning spells on it, you get something like D6 models. You are limited to 2 units per summoner so this limits spam at least some. This way summoning is still useful, but you can’t flood the board with an entire army per turn. This would still mean that the summoners would have to cost more.

            Other solution might be to cap it per summoner. Certain summoners could only bring 1 unit, others 2 and the greatest characters could bring 3 or even 4.

  • Sleeplessknight

    Square Bases and ranked units please.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      No.

      No.

      No.

      • luke-vdv

        @Red_Five_Standing_By:disqus Or we could have both a game of ranks and a game of skirmish.

    • EvilCheesypoof

      That’s gone and probably never coming back, by GW at least.

  • Erathvael

    Magic.

    One of the biggest, most jarring disappointments when switching from Warhammer to Age of Sigmar was AoS’ anemic magic system. The awesome Sylvaneth codex moves this in the right direction, with an entire spell lore available on top of unit unique spells, but as of now they’re pretty much the only faction with this option.

    I’d love to see some generic battle lores that wizards could use, on top of (or perhaps instead of) their unique spell or the two generic ones.

    Also… the allegiance system needs some revisiting. It strongly encourages super specific armies, which is fine on its own, but most armies only have a handful of options now with the new factions, and some of the battalions really don’t mesh. Case in point is the Sylvaneth Gnarlroot Wargrove, which has awesome boosts for spell casters and an allowance to take one extra Order wizard. But, if you actually take that wizard, you rob all your Sylvaneth wizards of the spell lore that’s, really, the only reason to take this battalion.

    There needs to be some sort of allowance or ally system, so you can have your primary allegiance and a list of auxiliaries you can take in some small amount.

    But, more than anything, AoS needs more factions. The setting feels half empty right now. Whatever has happened with Slaanesh and the elves?

    • Adrien Fowl

      I totally agree with you. I was wondering when GW is going to released something about the Elves, a book or something. I am eager to start collecting an Aelf army but it puts me off not knowikg what is going to happen to them.

      Meanwhile I keep adding soldiers to my Khorne army.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Aelves will come. We have a preview of where they are headed thanks to the Silver Tower. I think they just wanted to focus else where to begin with

        • luke snell

          yup, I beleiev 2017 will be the year of the Aelves, Duardin, and Slaneesh. I think it is good that GW is pacing out the releases of their specific factions. Gives them time and experience to tweak future releases based on what has come prior, and gives us the chance to fully enjoy what is currently available without being too distracted my too many shiny new toy options.

    • Huntard

      The errata to the General’s Handbook. Read it, it doesn’t rob your Sylvaneth wizards of their lore when you take an order wizard as part of a Gnarlroot Wargrove.

  • LordKrungharr

    I’d fix the thing where a model has to pile in to be closer to the closest model to it. It should be to the closest model not yet touching or in range of his or her or its attacks.

  • euansmith

    Hooting heck, Games Workshop; good on yer.

  • Alchemy207

    I’ll tell them how to make the book better, give me my effing money back I just bought that crap 3 weeks ago.