Has GW Finally Gotten Chaos Marines Right?

 

black-legion-CSM

Chaos Marines players wanted three simple things – Now that they have them, will GW rake in the millions?

Some time ago we asked for three big things GW needed to do to get CSMs right and please the CSM playerbase.  But what happens to the dog when it finally catches the car? Let’s fast forward to today and see how well GW has answered our requests.

 

Looking back, the conventional wisdom says the high water mark for Chaos Marine players was the 3.5 Edition codex here:

220px-Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_FCover

It wasn’t perfect by any means but it hit pretty close to the mark.  It was 2002 and it’s been all downhill from there.  The real trajedy is that there is no “secret sauce” or undiscovered recipe for what Chaos players want – it’s been plain as day for over a decade.  The real problem is that for 14 long years the GW Design Studio keeps on force-feeding the players different flavors of what they think people want in a CSM codex – and it’s was rejected time and time again. Here’s all they needed to do to publish a codex that will shatter sales records. Did GW listen?

Traitors

Request 1: Legion Rules

For the love of the Warmaster can we finally get back a set of Legion rules?  Note that I didn’t say “get some rules”, I said “get back” – because the 3.5 edition codex had a very simple set that got the job done.  Look at the short efficient way the First Founding Chapters are defined in the Space Marine codex – and take inspiration from that.   Just give us 9 set of rules to represent each of the Traitor Legions, with the default codex representing “vanilla default Chaos” Don’t go half ass and remember to make Marks and upgrades apply to all the CSMs so we can have Cult Terminators, Cult Vehicles, Cult everything…

GW’s 2016 Answer: traitor-legions traitor-toc

I have to say, they hit that nail right on the head.  There are still some legions who don’t have a Special Character to call their own, but that’s easily remedied. Heck White Dwarf could do it. Moving on…

 Chaos-Cultist

NOT the star of the codex – please!

Request 2: Emphasis on CHAOS MARINES

Ok, this is one of those things where the desire to sell new minis is rubbing up against the needs of the community – so let me be clear:

MAKE THE STARS OF THE CODEX THE CHAOS MARINES!

Don’t make it about the Dark Mechanicus daemonic engines. (even though they are cool)

Don’t make it about Cultists.

Make it about the Marines! There is a reason they are on the cover.  People don’t want to play an army of Hellturkeys and waves of Cultists being led by 5-man squads of CSMs parked in their deployment zones in Rhinos (maybe the Word Bearers do…)

If you end up with a codex that deemphasizes the CSMs themselves, then go back to the drawing board and work on them some more.  You CAN fix this!

Psst…plastic Dreadclaws for CSMs only? Hmmm?

GW’s 2016 Answer: 

60040199072_wrathofmagnuscodexstded01

Traitor Legions and Wrath of Magnus goes a long way towards fixing this. Yes there are still fundamental issues with trying to build a straight CSM codex list, but it looks like Nottingham’s answer generally was to give away so many free special rules to the Traitor Legions, that the masses would shut up.  It hasn’t been applied evenly, and some legions have a greater emphasis on the individual marine than others (say Death Guard vs Alpha Legion), but it’s a great start.  There are now ways to build CSM focussed armies that don’t get instantly rolled on the tabletop.

I hate to say this but honestly I kind of don’t mind the “straight CSM codex – renegades” being a bit on the crappy side compared to their Legion comrades. I do still want plastic Dreadclaws!

Ldreadclaw5

Come on GW – you can do it! Think of the money you’d make… chaos money!

Request 3: Theme of Grizzled Veterans

Ok here is another big one.  The allure of Loyalist Marines is that they are the golden boys of the Grimdark.  They are principled killers in powered armor with the latest high-tech toys and will lay down thier lives and never take one step back to defend the Imperium.

BUT – they are a pack of teenaged Boy Scouts compared to These Guys:

chosen-csm

CSMs know fear – you better bet they do, and they have ancient equipment. But they also know tactics, are cunning, ruthless and have been fighting for 10,000 years.  The codex NEEDS TO HAVE A THEME OF EVIL GRIZZLED BADASS VETERANS.  Imagine this guy:

clint-2Beastwood

The CSMs rejected his newb poser ass because he wasn’t tough and grizzled enough.  I’ll just lay it out so it’s plain as day:

IT’S OK TO MAKE CSMs INDIVIDUALLY BETTER (and pricier) THAN LOYALIST MARINES.

We want some totally badass super villiains.  The CSMs should be that army that makes the Imperials sweat when they hear about them. I mean how do you get up the nerve to fight powered armored monsters who used to be loyalists until they rebelled and have been successfully making a career of raiding the Imperium for 10,000 YEARS!

Last but not least – please please please just let “Chaos Renegades” die a quiet death and recede into the fluff.  Yes we know, loyalist Marines rebel all the time but let’s be honest – no one cares. Stop making the CSM codex about them. 

Just like we don’t expect a “Traitor Guard” codex because we can just use the normal one to represent a recently turned IG regiment – we can use codex Space Marines to represent recently fallen Chapters.

Just as you never see Hawk Lords, Inceptors or Sons of Orar outside of a GW publication – NO ONE gives two cents about The Purge, Knights of Blood, Claws of Lorek, the Fetid Unicorns, or the Narwhals of Decadence. We care about the Traitor Legions!

GW’s 2016 Answer: 

meh-spongebob

Things are still kind of meh on this front.  The Legions are certainly all Grizzled Veterans now with mandatory (and FREE) VotLW, and the standard CSMs from the codex are unchanged.  This is the ok side of the equation.  The bad part is the underlying CSMs are still not equal to their Loyalist brothers.  So overall I give this one a glass is half empty/full judgement. It’s still something that could be easily addressed by an update to the baseline CSM codex (if it ever comes…)

~ What do you think? Are CSMs where they need to be to make you all happy, or does more work remain undone?

 

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Fix the baseline codex and maybe the fans will be satisfied, maybe.

    • Zingbaby

      Safe to say fans will never be satisfied.

      • Adrik

        I think the problem is Chaos players want everything that Space Marines have with all the goodies of Chaos.

        • vlad78

          Probably true but nonetheless a renegade SM codex which gives no incentive to field renegade marines is a total failure in my book.

        • Drpx

          Yes, every Legion needs an invisible, grav-spamming bike-mounted deathstar option and a 300 pt> SHV or GC equipped with dual D-weapons. Then they’ll be happy.

          • Matthew LeBlanc

            i dont think we need grav but instead give us a weapon unique to us. Like how grav is the imperials weapon.

            maybe give us volkit weapons.

          • Karru

            We used to have a unique weapon in the form of Daemon Weapons. Now they are taking up Relic Slots.

          • euansmith

            How about Mutation Rays that, on a 6 to wound, turn the target in to a Spawn of Chaos?

          • Kazzigum

            Pretty much. I don’t get all this whining, this IS pretty much exactly what I wanted as a CSM player. If anyone one wants me, I’ll be standing in the corner being all happy. Perhaps chuckling menacingly to myself.

          • Zack Seiders

            Was going to take the traitors hate book for the formations. Since legions have said formations as well as rules for said legions “deathguard and alpha legion standing out among the others… not that most of the others are bad “save for word bearers relying on rng, and thousand sons costing so many damn points”

          • Mike Salamandrin

            could bring back Kai guns with new rules

          • krisbrowne42

            Having access to the HH models from Calth would be nice, as well… I was hoping that Legions would include Cataphracti Termies and Contemptors.

        • mysterex

          Which would be fine if they had an appropriate points cost.

          • Adrik

            No it wouldn’t. This is all about a vocal minority of Chaos Players wanting a munchkin army. They want to play Codex Space Marines with all the benefits of having Marks, daemon weapons, and ATSKNF. They do not want their space marines to represent the fact that they now serve fickle gods who like their name sake of Chaos, disrupt the order of their own troops. They expect traitors to maintain discipline despite the fact that they just mutinied against their commanders. Go look up famous mutinies and the first thing you will read is all discipline and command structure breaks immediately.

            Space Marines do not have huge armories of tanks and such. When Space Marine Chapters lose their equipment they have to be resupplied by the Imperium. A renegade force has it worse. They will have a token of what they had and they will have to deal with the fact that the chapter rapidly goes through balkanization. That is why Renegade Chapters are nothing more than giant warbands held together by force.

            The only thing Chaos needs is a few more units and their units to work. Not “hey lets just play repainted space marines!”.

        • Bram Achternaam

          No not chaos stormhawks and those stupid Centurion models please. The Imperium can keep those toys.

        • Karru

          As a CSM fan, I can say that this seems to be the case for majority of CSM players. I personally would like to see point balancing and making some of the units useful and not total RNG. There are some SM equipment that CSM should get though. Drop Pods, Artificer Armour and Locator/Homing Beacons. CSM use Drop Pods on a regular basis and they are not exactly the hardest things to come by. CSM also doesn’t have anything to help them reliably Deep Strike more accurately. There is one Relic that is nigh impossible to activate and it is with one guy that is super easy to kill. 2+ Save for CSM without taking a Terminator Armour also makes sense. Artificer armours are relics of the past, CSM are walking relics for Christ’s sake.

          • Adrik

            Actually, the Chaos Space Marines would largely be a very depleted force. 10k years fighting without the benefit of a solid manufacturing base, the inability to make their own space marines, reliant on raiding and collecting gene-seeds from fallen loyalists due to the corrupt Gene-seed means the Chaos Space Marines would be under armored and rarer than their Loyalist counterparts. Their Lords may have relics but why would their line troops? This Antithetical to everything that Chaos stands for. Their soldiers are threats to their own leaders because every single chaos space marine wants to be the apple of their gods’ eye.

            I agree with Drop pods and locator beacons because Chaos Space Marines are as fleet based as their loyalist counterparts and their lore has them drop podding on planets. However, why would a chaos space marine have relic armour? Why would anyone make another Chaos Space Marine that isn’t a lord armor on par in protective value as Terminator Armor? In your own faction’s book, it has stated over and over that Chaos space marines procure Terminator armor by scavenging it or killing the person who had it. The other point is and the one Chaos Space Marine players forget is their side got the bulk of terminator armor during the war. If anything CSM players should have the Tartarus and Cataphracti armors as relic armor before they would even have artificer armor.

            My argument is thus, artificer armor is more of a sign of lack of terminator armor. Artificer armor is also generally something made by forge masters for their chapter’s elites. Chaos doesn’t have the luxury and if a Lord got something like that it would really be through tribute. But why? Their side stole the bulk of the terminator armor during the War. So, I would expect more old variants to be floating around with demonic benefits.

            I mean I can agree with many things you said because total RNG isn’t fun.

        • Muninwing

          no. chaos players want the equivalent of what SM players get for the same points. big difference.

          CSM don’t need everything. they want their same flavor. they want individuality and distinctness. but they don;t want to get walloped because Marines suddenly rediscover Grav tech that CSM conveniently don’t have.

          there are some whiners that want CSM to be the next big cheez army. that’s not everyone.

          really, i’d love to go back to my old Chaos army. i’d just need to have the right motivation. heldrake spam doesn’t do it for me.

          • Adrik

            Why would CSM’s “conveniently” not have Grav weapons? They are not a part of the Imperium anymore. If an American unit say the 81st airborne went traitor and fled to Somalia they would by the year’s end no longer be wielding many of the American weapons due to cutting themselves off from their supply chain because they fled the army supplying them. This is common sense. You are playing the equivalent of rebels.

            You aren’t going to have the equivalent tech because you are no longer part of the same force. It’s like if Tau fire warriors fled the Tau empire with their weapons to join some pirate band. After a few engagements without their earth caste and a steady supply of components parts and ammunition, they are going to have to stoop down and use the tech they can get their hands on. The Farsight Enclave only has the tech they have because of a steady supply of tech from people within the empire loyal to Farsight. They also have Earth Cast scientists and engineers helping them build a manufacturing base.

            The CSM do not. They have the Dark Mechanicum who have largely abandoned making the mundane crap and making what they want. The two factions aren’t allies and the CSM’s have to play nice unless its Abaddon. So, you shouldn’t have the same tech and you should have drawbacks. Your faction abandoned the Imperium and shouldn’t have what the Imperium has. Your Dark Mechanicum has abandoned the Mechanicum creed for 10k years and due to that span have cast off the old ways and is working on what they think is greater, i.e Daemon-tech.

          • Muninwing

            then it should be consistent.

            are grav weapons delicate? can they not be fixed by Dark Mechanicum smiths?

            if their stuff breaks down and is replaced by more demony stuff, then why do all of them still have their bolters functional? that was your entire point — so why does it only apply to some but not others?

            what about traitors? why do the CSM that fell last year suddenly not have access to their old weapons? can they not capture some in raids? do they lose all ability to use them once they betray the imperium (and if that’s the case, then why do Soul Drinkers and Flesh Tearers and Mantis Warriors and Lamenters still have their gear)?

            it’s really arbitrary, and completely illogical.

            i get the “supply line” argument. but even in that, they have forge worlds and warpsmiths who can and should mitigate that problem somewhat.

            and if daemon-tech is where it’s at for the Dark Mechanicum, then where is it? there’s some big dinobots, sure, but where are the rest? if that’s the central argument, then they need to actually have the stuff they have concentrated 10,000 years on developing…

          • Adrik

            “are grav weapons delicate? can they not be fixed by Dark Mechanicum smiths?”

            Can the Russian make F-22s? I mean they are a human made air planes. Clearly anyone should be able to make them, right? Why doesn’t Ford parts work with BMWs? I mean its a car. Whats the difference between a ford 5.0 Coyote Engine and a N54 3.0 Inline 6cyl both are engines. BMW techs should be able to fix any ford engine with BMW parts, right?

            A grav weapon isn’t like a modern day machine gun. Making components for a weapon that would be as much of a computer as it is a gun is not something that could be easily replicated. If it were then they wouldn’t be something that would only be given to space marines.

            After WWII the Russians were given jet engines by the British. The Soviet union tore them down and reversed enginered them to build their own engines. They didn’t make Rolls Royce engines they made their own type using the Rolls Royce engine as the base. But those were engines. Now when you get to chipsets that can be harder. You also need to take into account that many of these Hereteks still have religious beliefs around technology that makes them some what dumb.

            I agree with you that Chaos should have more. There is no debate that Chaos needs more units. I just do not agree when people say “hey what loyalists have WE SHOULD HAVE!”. Its like no, chaos needs things that are unique to them. Then again I think the Daemonology power that allows you to summons demons should give massive bonuses to anyone with a mark of chaos. I also think that any loyalist chapter that summons demons should have to kill the librarian that casts it.

          • Muninwing

            except every example you gave is a new tech being cross-adapted.

            graviton weapons existed in the Great Crusade. why are they not around anymore?

            what’s more, if we were living in a postapocalyptic insanity, and the only car you had access to was a BMW… and you found a ford car parts store… would you immediately pillage it for usefulness that you might adapt, or would you burn it to the ground to prevent someone else from having it? i’m betting that most of the parts wouldn;t be exact fits, but beggars not being choosers they could use the parts to make something.

            if, during a war, one side were to find a factory that had been producing tanks… would they just blow it up if it was in occupied territory, or would they refit it to make their own stuff? or would they make the same products and just use those?

            and those renegade 81st airborne you mentioned… why would they stop using weapons they scavenged from won battles? if we are going with that mixed-weapon narrative, then why do CSM all carry bolters instead of the occasional tau railgun or DE lance?

            and why can’t their own techs fix their own weapons?

            especially with 10,000 years, access to forges, and no restrictions… there’s really no excuse.

            DarkMech are literal embodiments of a Randian/objectivist wet dream. absolute freedom, zero reasons to not do as one pleases, no pesky moral compunctions to get in the way. Same with Warpsmiths. so why are their weapons unilaterally worse than their counterparts?

          • Adrik

            “except every example you gave is a new tech being cross-adapted.”

            No they are not. You cannot make a 5.0 V8 engine use 3.0 6 cylinder parts. The Pistons are different, the gaskets are different, the fuel injectors are different, and so forth If you want to argue they are then you are just being a contrarian who doesn’t want to give up a point. A car can be modified to use any parts you want, so long as it can fit the chassis. The Engine itself has to have parts specifically designed for it.

            So, If I have a BMW in a post-apocalyptic war and I find a ford factory filled with 5.0 V8 Components, like cylinders, ECU and head gaskets. That factory will be useless to me. The Piston heads will be too large to fit into the engine. The ECU mapped for a V8, will not be able to talk to the BMW, sure I could use radiator that I would have to do a lot of modding to fit in the car, but the internal parts are completely incompatible with the other.

            The F-22 is another example. Their are components on the F-22 that are very difficult to make, especially the electronic components. Since the air plane has been cancelled the company that made the F-22’s electronic components has moved on. When Congress ask the company that made the components if it could retool their factories to make the chipsets again, the company responded, “No.”.

            Also, why would the 81st airborne have to swap weapons? First of all Somalia is drenched in AK-47s. The biggest reason they are going to drop the M4s is due to the fact that their weapons use 5.56mm round while the 7.62 mm round that the AK-47 is incompatible with the barrels. The M4 will chamber but they are not going to fire due to the larger round being to big for the barrel.

            I am getting the feeling you do not know much about actual hardware, especially military.

            Why Chaos uses bolters would most likely due to the ubiquity. The Imperium is your largest foe and the Bolter is standard tech. The Dark Mech might make it for them or they may be able to raid even the lowliest PDF armory and get their hands on the Rounds.

            “DarkMech are literal embodiments of a Randian/objectivist wet dream. absolute freedom, zero reasons to not do as one pleases, no pesky moral compunctions to get in the way. Same with Warpsmiths. so why are their weapons unilaterally worse than their counterparts?:

            That still doesn’t mean they have the knowledge they do not possess. You can hire a computer hardware engineer to design you a nice processor but that doesn’t mean you can make him make a bomb. You are assuming these guys have massive knowledge and just know how to make everything in the world. That means two things. You do not understand that being an engineer doesn’t make you smart enough to make something that is beyond your specialty and why would they fixate on Human tech? The greatest tech in the galaxy is necron. The lowliest Gauss rifle en mass can bring down a knight and a titan.

            So in summation, much of your argument is base on what works in the board game. Why would a Dark Mech heretek or warpsmith constrain himself to trying to replicate existing tech that in the galaxy is inferior to that of Necron, DE, Eldar, and Tau tech? Because it works in the board game?

        • Kaylum Dicks

          Considering that many Chaos Marines are not from the original fallen Legions, but from more recent chapters gone bad, why not? A chater falls to chaos and suddenly their Thunder Hammers, Assault Cannons, and Land Raider Crusaders stop working?

          There’s no reason CSM shouldn’t have access to all the Loyalist Marines have, plus Chaos goodies. I think the best way to do a Chaos codex, is to have it act more like a template that lays over an existing army. Add in some older 30k-ish stuff, and done. This allows you to ‘upgrade’ another army to be a chaos army.

          • Derek Lee

            I read there use to be rules that allowed CSM to make up 25% of their army with C:SM equipment. This could have been renegades or Alpha legion stealing equipment or whatever. Sounded cool to me.

          • jonnyhotpockets

            If you wan’t to play a freshly turned traitor chapter just role with SM rules and a chaos paint scheme. Also a freshly turned chapter isn’t going to have any daemon engines or possessed

          • Moik

            Possession isn’t a legal process that takes years to go through after you sign the paperwork. Some chapters have possessed before they turn traitor.

            Same for daemon-tech; corrupting artefacts are a staple of traitors in all pop culture. Would you tell Arthas he couldn’t use Frostmourne until he turned? 😉

          • Adrik

            The only single chapter that had demonic relics that is canon is the Relictors. You know the guys who had Daemon weapons and were wiped out by the Grey Knights? Having a Demonic weapon is different than having a Daemon Engine.

          • Adrik

            Easy, many of times Chaos fallen chapters do not fall en mass but instead sunder. Chapters are also not self sufficient. They are supplied with everything they have. If you do not have the parts, technicians, and suppliers guess what? You begin to lose your stuff. How hard is that to understand? If an army unit goes Rogue and it has no mechanics, no one is selling them weapons and supplies, only the most basic of gear will continue in service.

            So, you have a chapter go rogue like say the Red Corsairs. The Astral Claws when apart of the Imperium did not forge their own gear but were supplied it and when they fled their chapter was in ruins. Most Chapters with exception of the Salamanders and maybe Iron Hands, do not instruct their marines on how to maintain anything but beyond a bolter and their power armor. Maintaining gear is different that manufacturing. Anyone can be taught how to maintain something but that doesn’t mean the individual knows how manufacture the part. All upkeep of weapons, terminator armor, and tanks are handled by Chapter Serfs and Mechanicus personnel.

            So, yeah, when Space Marine Renegades fall they are leaving their own supply chain to join a largely resource starved faction where only the Strongest factions like Black Legion have a true supply chain. They are also joining a faction that many of times they have to defend themselves from as other parts of the faction will try to raid them for their stuff. Terminator armor is a great example of this. Chaos Space Marines do not have the means to manufacture the armor and so any armor they have is scavenged. Night Lord’s series went into this and how the Night Lords scavenged everything they had. A single suit of power armor may have parts scavenged from multiple series of power armor from multiple chapters.

            And before anyone chimes in with “Dark Mechanicum”. Everything the Imperium has is woefully more complex than anything we have in the modern Era. Just look up the F-22 program and the reasons why restarting the program is a non-starter, then realize that any faction such as the Dark Mechanicum had to restart forge worlds, may be filled with people who do not know how to build land raiders, or has set their forge worlds up to produce very specific things like Daemon tech. Also, just knowing how to make the shell, and armor of a land raider doesn’t mean they have the means to make the components like chipsets and such (actual issue into why the F-22 is very hard to restart) to make one work. All in all you want to play a faction that is a ad-hoc force of warbands who hate and war with one another as they do their own eternal nemesis, well you got it. That’s the sacrifices you make joining a largely leaderless faction with no true base, where everyone is hostile, all deals are not final, and betrayal is the only true constant.

          • Kaylum Dicks

            Except there are plenty of instances of Space Marines manufacturing their own gear. Maybe not on the scale that a Forge World can produce, but they still make their own gear, not just maintain it. In fact even Chaos Space Marines make all new gear, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes, Defilers, and Kytan Daemon Engines are all machines that the Chaos Marines make that are not patterened off anything the Empire has. Yes they are daemonicly possessed vehicles, but there’s still a vehicle being made.

            You also don’t take into account all the ForgeWorlds and Manufacturing worlds that fell to chaos or were captured. Then there’s the Dark Mechanicus that also fell to Chaos. The original legions were out conquering worlds far from their manufacturing base, and in order to maintain their fighting strength, they would have had to have their own ways to make and replenish their equipment without having to wait for the 30k/40k version of FedEx to deliver that new Land Raider. If they can maintain a Land Raider for 10,000 years, I’m sure they could have held onto a few Thunder hammers.

          • Adrik

            You need to reread your fluff because you are wrong. The Chaos Space Marines make nothing. The Forge Fiends, Mauler fiends, Hell Drakes and Defilers are all made by the Dark Mechanicum. In your own book it talks about a Warsmith of the Iron Warriors who captured a Dark Mechanicum forgeworld and put them all to work for him. In this He conquered a world with his forces and put the dark mechanicum to work for him.

            So what is MADE BY the CSM is ZERO. What is MADE FOR the CSM is made by Dark Mechanicum who either made deals or were conquered by powerful warbands. This isn’t of debate both the CSM codex and the Skitarii Novel Series goes into this.

            Also the original legions conquest is again all gone. You need to read your books. The Traitor Legions conquests were all taken from them when they fled to the Eye of Terror. This is why the Imperium is the ascendant power and this is why Abaddon has been trying to break through the Cadian Gate.

            Now despite the fact that the GW dev team has stated over and over that Chaos forces are not a homogeneous group, still you all act like it is a solid empire. It isn’t. SO example the Iron Warrior who has his own forge world that you brought up. He refuses to give anything to any other faction unless they pay him in whatever resources he needs.

            And again read the 30k fluff. They were getting regular shipments to maintain their expansion. 40k is not Star Trek where they have replicators to make their stuff. The Expedition fleets were huge and were getting resupplied by their forge worlds. If you bothered reading the 30k fluff it makes it explicit that when they conquered a series of world they would be sent supplies by the closet forge worlds to the conquered territories. Heck, it even goes into how Horus made Mechanicum prioritize what would be traitor legions for all the newest tech shipments.

            Again read your books.

          • Kaylum Dicks

            Your own reply confirms what I already stated, but your splitting hairs. Do the Marines make the items themselves? No, but they do have servants to make them. That is still the Chaos Marines (as an overall orginization) making their own gear. As I said, but you seemed to gloss the statement I already made saying “You also don’t take into account all the ForgeWorlds and Manufacturing worlds that fell to chaos or were captured.” which is something you gave a specific example.

            The dimple fact is, warbands of Chaos have the means to create, reproduce, and repair any and all gear they have. Yes forgeworlds were always needed to maintain full supply of arms and munitions. But to think that a military that can cross the galaxy and wage continuous war, lacks the ability to refurbish their own gear is absurd.

          • Adrik

            No, I am not splitting hairs. You are completely misrepresenting and simply refuse to understand that its not a reliable source and those that have do not share what they have. So example if you are trying to make the argument that Black Legion and Warsmith Shon’tu capturing Forge Worlds as theirs some how means that it is open to all the forces of chaos then you are WRONG. They do not share. The absurdity here is you refuse to read your own codex.

            If you are the Crimson Slaughter, you do not just say “hey Black Legion, your forge world is going to supply us too!”. No they aren’t. The Crimson Slaughter codex goes into how resource starved they were and how they had to raid to try to gain supplies to fix their crap.

            You are trying to make the argument that the forces of Chaos are just as armed as the Imperium. They aren’t Soul Hunter, the Night Lords have no one giving them anything, they literally kill other warbands and steal their weapons and tech. Skitarius, Warsmith Idris of the Iron Warriors sat in the warp and waited out a war between the Mechanicus and the Dark Mechanicum waiting for the moment to swoop in and claim the Forge world. Why? Because the Dark Mechanicum wouldn’t supply him with enough to go to war. Your own codex states that Chaos space marines many of times must make deals with the mechanicum that is extremely one-sided.

            Just look at page 18 of the black Legion codex. “Gone forever was the single unified force that Horus had led against the Emperor, replaced with bickering warbands struggling over scraps or lost to hedonistic excess. “. This is before it goes into how the Legions went to war with one another and shattered themselves. So yeah, when you become renegade you are joining essentially leaving the imperium to enter a ragtag force of fiefdoms and in order to gain you resources you must conquer and hold or join warbands.

            So in summation. Learn your lore. because this argument you make here..

            “The simple fact is, warbands of Chaos have the means to create, reproduce, and repair any and all gear they have. Yes forgeworlds were always needed to maintain full supply of arms and munitions. But to think that a military that can cross the galaxy and wage continuous war, lacks the ability to refurbish their own gear is absurd.”

            Is completely refuted in the fluff. The Chaos Space Marines do not the means to wage continuous war. The Chaos Space marines are not a homogeneous force. They are broken into fiefdoms where some really powerful ones may have resources but many do not. So if you want to act like Warsmith Shon’tu’s warband, Abaddon’s Black Legion, and so forth equate all of chaos then you are wrong on every front.

        • jonnyhotpockets

          Not true at all.
          I stopped playing after codex 3.5, my cousin and I both played chaos but there were 2 different armies entirely. I played Night Lords and had a very hit and run close combat orientated army led by a flying daemon prince. My cousin on the other hand fielded the Iron Warriors and had a very shooty army complete with basilisks (I hear Iron Warriors can’t even use them anymore)

          • Adrik

            Right, and 3.5 was the most overpowered version of chaos. It was the dex where you could have an Aspiring champion with close to 8 powerfist attacks. The Iron Warriors were nothing more than a Basilisks gun line that sat at the edge of their board and did nothing but shoot. No movement, no nothing. Just deployed 6 inches in and did nothing,

          • Muninwing

            “overpowered?”

            no.

            just at the level of power that was about balanced.

            at this point, with their higher points costs, they’d underperform against the current meta.

          • Adrik

            back in 3.5 they were one of the most powerful in the game. The Demon Bomb list would actually still outperform the current lists. Are you kidding me? The Demon bomb and the way you can pop a blood thirster out would make that list disgusting. Plus, who would use the Black Mace when you can use that Axe on a Demon Prince that allows them to ignore Invul and armor Saves.

            You also forget that army can make Chosen that get first turn charges. SO , I would have a bloodthirster would would sit inside one of my Aspiring champions that i could either pop and expolode him in combat or you wipe out his unit and the Thirster pops out of the dead body, unscathed. I would have Chosen that could get first turn charges, and I would be able to get a Daemon Prince that ignore invul and armor saves. Plus I could fill the army with 13pt Daemonenettes with Rending.

      • nurglitch

        Probably helps to understand that different Chaos Space Marine players want different things.

        • Nah man, it’s just about making cynical broad uninformed comments (like this one), because internet.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Don’t you mean “Interweb”?

          • Hedwerx

            Intertoobs

          • World Wide Net?

      • Tsukuro

        I am, indeed, quite satisfied, as a Chaos player (Emperor’s Children, if you want to know). I haven’t tried my army on the table yet, but, at least, I won’t be sweeped off the table as easily as before. It won’t be easy to win (my group plays Loyalist Marines, Eldar and Necrons, so probably I won’t) but now I can, at least, try. But that’s not it.

        I’m satisfied Chaos Legions got again the Fluff, I mean, the Fluff on the table. Before this supplement, if you played Black Legion vs Alpha Legion, the only change would be the color of the minis.

        • jonnyhotpockets

          I have about $4000 worth of Night Lord’s I can’t really use, so yeah. The big 4 chaos legions get the nice treatment but the other 5 are forgotten about, that’s what pisses me off

    • alastair_jack

      Yeah I think they’re not updating the codexes because 8th edition is probably just around the corner… I hope pls

      • Me

        That didn’t stop them last time…

    • Nyyppä

      For that to happen all the current supplemental products would also need to be fixed to have a good internal balance (on the level of DG) and with no significant redundancy like double fearless, triple hatred or just useless rules like terminators having 2 shooting rounds when they arrive but only combi weapons and inability charge from DS to make the second shot worth something.

  • Phil LaFond

    Just make CSM fearless, or S5 across the board. Something to offset the lack of And They Shall Know No Rules…

    • Djbz

      That rule should really just be removed/nerfed it is far too good for what it costs

      • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

        the rule itself isn’t even that good … it’s mostly that it makes you immune to so many other rules.

        • Karru

          It’s actually very broken rule. They cannot be Sweeping Advanced, regroup automatically no matter how many models are in the unit and can act totally normally in that turn. It has no downsides at all. At least in the 5th edition you took extra wounds thanks to No Retreat! rule.

          If I was writing that rule, I would make it so that they can always attempt to regroup but still have to roll for it. They take extra wounds for every wound they lost the combat if they get caught by Sweeping Advance. They also regroup like everyone else, but they can move normally and that’s all.

        • nurglitch

          There’s ways to exploit it. If a squad fails a morale check in the movement phase, and at the cheap and cheerful Loyalist Ld8 it’s perfectly possible, they’ll fail all the morale checks they’re forced to take thereafter (excepting where they’ve regrouped for combat) and fall back 2D6/3D6 each time. If you can force a morale check in the movement phase, say with Vector Strikes or Tank Shocks, or shooting from a Terminator Annihilation Force, then you can push a unit of Space Marines back off the table.

          • Koen Diepen Van

            How is that different from any other army? And the rule is insanely good. Only marine can lose a fight. Flee instantly regroup. Fire their weapons at full bs and then charge back in.

          • nurglitch

            Fearless doesn’t even have the vulnerability of failing morale or leadership. Most other armies’ units will be dead before it’s an issue. Plus it only works if the Space Marines are losing. It’s bad from the perspective of making them exempt from some of the more interesting rules in 40k.

          • Moik

            Fearless doesn’t let you do the backflipping warpspeed teleport with like a Benny Hill chase scene though; which is the ‘broken’ part.

            I’m not convinced it’s as overpowered as people claim it is, but the fact is that it’s very. Very. Very. Cheesy.

          • nurglitch

            So is Hit & Run if that’s your standard. I think Marines play better without either rule. One of the reasons I like CSMs, and 30k.

    • nurglitch

      It’s something the ‘cult’ legions get as standard. The Iron Warriors get in in fortifications.

  • SilentPony

    How about giving them access to some of the vehicles and equipment normal marines get? Razorback, speeders, raider variants, fellblades, etc…

    • Jennifer Burdoo

      Razorbacks and LR variants came thousands of years after their desertion. As long as they are Legions rather than renegades, they shouldn’t get those.

      • Eisai

        I wont agree on the Rhinos and Land Riders.
        Mechanicum split also on the regulation, that some technologies are forbidden/should be researched VERY slowly, VERY regulated.
        And many techpriest wanted to just do some stuff, make it better.
        Strapping a lascannon to a land speeder is technoheresy. Strapping a lascannon to a rhino also. Oh wait, razorback? We just asked Mars and High Lords, after 500 years of investigation we can now make us a razorback.

        So imagine that techmarines, warpsmiths and mechanicum can do those things, like swapping a cannon, without millenia of research. Maybe 20 years, but they had time to do it. And could use ‘upgraded’ parts in ways that loyalist are still forbidden. And they could check/salvage some technology from the Empire.

      • SilentPony

        The Khan had a Razorback during the Siege, and its a bad argument to use as long as all the CM models are in Mrk7 armor. That’s post Heresy too.

        And of course they could salvage them or make their own.

        Or be a Renegade Chapter.

        Or or, lets compromise. Traitor Legions don’t get Chapter equipment, but they do get Legion stuff. JetBikes, Javelins, Xiphons, Volkites, Leviathans, the works. That way its fair.

        • Jennifer Burdoo

          Good thought – I like the idea of getting Legion equipment. They ought to have Land Speeders at the least, and the old style would be a good way to differentiate from the modern “shoe” style.

    • jonnyhotpockets

      we dont even want them hahaha

  • Paul Sinanan

    I think a lot of people will say: where are the minis?

    • Nyyppä

      I think that GW understood that their lack of professional skill in the design team would have not done good enough job for them to get profit from new models. I mean, come on, look at the book. TS got new stuff only because of Magnus.

  • Thierry Sultan

    Since the release of Traitor’s Hate, I started to play a Chaos Space Marines Warband, supported by a Deamon Engines Warpack. Not the stronger build I know.
    I won some games against newbies.
    Most important I played a lot of games against a friend and his Ultramarines. His army is not that far of mine in the concept : lots of marines and a few tanks, dreadnoughts, and terminators.
    Well I’ve lost all of the games I played against him. And I pretend it’s not only because I made some mistakes.
    I did some mistakes, that were immediatly punished. I did the same when I could. Hell I’ve dynamited a building where half of my opponent’s army was hidden, I’ve cursed more than once stormshield terminator squad or Marneus with the lethal malefice… It never made any difference.
    I know, the thing with a Chaos Warband is to come close combat, where their “hatred” rule will show its strongness against the lackeys of the false emperor (the hell, I don’t even have that bonus against the other factions…).
    But with his chapter’s traits, my opponent has also some possibilities to relaunch dices in the close combat phase. But I don’t have any in the shooting phase, when an Ultramarine army is nearly sure to hit at every shot in the first rounds.
    Coupled with drop pods assault (auto first blood), better equipments relatively cheaper (20 pts for a grav-gun, is that a joke), better and a lot cheaper terminators …
    It ends up making me feel I have to fight at one against two for no valuable reason.
    Even in the last game I played against my Ultramarine friend, I had the luck on my side but not my opponent, puished him with very succesful deepstrikes, I leaded 15-4 victory points… I finally got tabled up. I could have won with a few delaying tactics but I didn’t resist charging a lone Marneus with a Khorne Lord with Axe of Blind-Hatred Fury and 3 terminators with power glove.
    In that same turn I defeated Tigirius with some Chaos Marines, he fled, I succeeded pursuing him so the fight could continue the next round. With my Terminators I only made Marneus loose 2 HP (not because of a 1 for my deamon weapon) whereas my Chaos lord and a termi got killed. The survivors fled and got killed…
    That’s only the last example I have in mind, but it means I have to be a coward to play my army for the best. Where are the Chaos Power Overwhelming badguys the fluff promised me.

    Traitor Legions is a new hope for me and my old Emperor’s Children. The most important is the it will enable me to play my Deamon Prince with deamon whip I converted thirteen years ago.

  • Randy Randalman

    The current state of CSM’s is better, more competitive, and more diverse than they’ve ever been in 40k’s history. (Yes, I’ve played since before the beginning.)

    40k itself is a sloppy mess, but that’s a different topic.

    The simplest answer to this article? No. I mean, yes, GW got it mostly right, but the fans don’t care what GW does right. They will literally make things up to say were done incorrectly, and complain about whatever thing they don’t have that they weren’t even asking for. They will never allow GW to win.

    • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

      People asked for a revision of the main CSM codex to adjust the ridiculously overpriced points cost for everything. Didn’t happen. People complain (rightfully so).

      This is why Chaos Marines still aren’t the focus of the codex btw, which is also something people asked for and continue to complain about.

      • ZeeLobby

        Some people (those who don’t actually play CSM) will just never get it.

        • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

          like GW Games design dept. ;D

          • Moik

            They have a design department?

      • Muninwing

        this is like gramma getting mad at you for not wearing the socks she gave you for christmas list year, that were the wrong size.

        CSM players: redo the points and clutter on our units. and add Chapter Tactics to keep us on parallel and flavor with SM

        GW: you want more big robots? here you go.

        CSM players: no… look, redo the points on the units. it’s not hard. give us the same power-level redo that SM got and that every other army is getting.

        GW: what? heldrake spam? it’s a nice model.

        CSM players: please… we just want to play our army without getting tabled. can you at least address the points-issues as compared to Marines?

        GW: we listen to our customers. as a result, here — have these units that have awesome models but crap rules and are way off on points.

        CSM players: aaaugh! ok… a new book is coming? can you at least address the points issues and maybe fix the unuseable units like Mutilators and Warptalons?

        GW: of course, we listen to our customers. here — have these new rules that don’t address the points costs or fix the unuseable units, but add new stuff to traitor legions. that’s what you asked for, right? it’s kinda of like Chapter Tactics.

        CSM players: …. i guess. yeah. whatever.

        non-CSM players: what’s wrong with you guys? GW listened to you and gave you everything you’ve been asking for since forever — you really are just complainers, huh?

        • Noveltyboy

          The cost of units makes most of the Legion detachments unwieldy under 2500. The Warpsmith tax on the Auxiliary formations is a joke too. I think the 4 God dedicated Legions should have got free Marks too as that cost over the army can be huge.

          • Karru

            Free Marks would have made all the other legions obsolete. Why would I play Word Bearers when I can play Death Guard with infinitely better stats? The VotLW for free and paying for Marks is fine. It balances things out a bit. We already have issues with Cult Marines being worse versions of the CSM Squads with the God-Legions, we don’t need them to make Undivided Legions to be way worse as well.

          • nurglitch

            Actually, there’s a Black Legion core formation that gets a free Mark of Khorne in addition to the Veterans of the Long War: The Hounds of Abbadon.

          • Karru

            But that is just for Black Legion, correct? It is also a formation.

            The difference here is that if the Marks were automatically free, just by saying you were Death Guard, you would have Toughness 5, FNP, Relentless and Fearless Marines for 13pts a piece running around. That sound a bit too much, even for Chaos.

          • nurglitch

            I’m just pointing out that it’s one of the available options. The Black Legion Warband is much more interesting and powerful.

  • Thomas Gardiner

    The base Codex and vast swathes of the minis are still garbage (though I’ll play a crappy Codex if it has great minis). Update them and *then* Chaos will be worth playing.

    • Moik

      Modeling chaos miniatures makes you more of an archaeologist than a hobbyist.

    • Dennis J. Pechavar

      I’ve played Dark Angels since 2nd Ed so I know all about crappy Codex blues. This latest edition of rules is actually okay and the Ravenwing rules are amazing. Fingers crossed for Chaos eventually getting back to 3.5 level of goodness.

      • Thomas Gardiner

        Yeah, I’m pretty happy with my Dark Angels rules-wise!

        (Yes, I play both sides. No, not in that way.)

  • Nikita Kuznetsov

    No. GW just gives to veteran players a reason to field their fully painted Legion themed CSM armies of old.

  • Painjunky

    This is nice and I will dig out my old night lords for a few games BUT the source codex is just so weak, plain and boring its not enough to make me go out and spend my hard earned.

    Fix codex or no spendy spendy… unless I was a huge Magnus fan and already had a deamon army.

  • Andrew

    Still a lot of serious model updating to do.

    • Brian Griffith

      And if the (sort of) leaked cover to January’s White Dwarf is any indication, GW is just getting started on that front.

      • Adrien Fowl

        What is the January cover about? I haven’t heard or seen anything yet.

        • Malisteen

          There was a preview that had most of the cover blocked out, but you could still see a bit of the top and bottom, and it looked to be a picture of abaddon… but it seemed to be art and not a picture of a model, which makes an actual new model somewhat questionable.

  • ILikeToColourRed

    to me, renegades fill the build-a-chapter aspect – if you want your own paint scheme, maybe even to write your own fluff

    that said – legions just adds even more options for that – i hope they dont take away non-legions (aka renegades) afterwards

    personally i hope gw come out with renegade rules more along the lines of fw’s “traitors and heretics” so that my lost and the damned can get some new toys 😉

  • grumzimus

    I love the Codex rules. LOOOOVVVEEE THEM!!! After YEARS of crying, bawling, moaning, we finally get the rules we’ve clamoured for. Our time has come!! Is it an instant win? No way, though I’m sure the tourney crowd will be spamming death guard. But the main thing is that we can now have our fluff and eat it too. I can finally unpick my entire army from being single units of chaos god affiliated guys into a full on army of them.

    The one thing that I would like to complain about though, is where’s the love for forgeworld? The only way you can get some of the more fluffy units into the new codex is with a combined arms/allied detachment. Which seems a real shame when so many of these armies would/should be using osme of the more obscure 40k vehicles.

    Iron Warriors for instance have barely got any access to the barrage/ordanance that they have rules for (Vindi’s or fortifications pretty much).

    And Dreadclaws? Only if you want a dedicated transport for that unit in your warband.

    So next time they’re looking at the main codex, lets see if they can add those units in as well, to just round things up. It’s almost as if they DONT want you to go out buying that really expensive Sicaran or Spartan model.

    • Muninwing

      it does need a points-recalibration.

      but most armies do.

    • Nyyppä

      How do NL, IW or WB fit in to anything you just said?

      • grumzimus

        WB not so much, IW, they will make a decent combined arms detachment, but that’s the only way I think I’ll get them to work. NL will just be used to playtest against tau where I get f’din the A for a few hours. So…. Kinda that’s how it fits in to the post :S Just saying, shame that the forgeworld stuff is hard to get at in the new formation times. But any of the non diety specific legions are going to be underpowered. Was always going to happen that way.

        • Nyyppä

          What makes you think it “was always going to happen that way”?

          • grumzimus

            The codex has always favoured the 4 gods. Unmarked never really gets that much back to make up for it. And Nurgle’s always been the best of the marks on the table.

          • Nyyppä

            Not really. Regular CSM are better than vanilla berzerkers. Vanilla TS are a joke. Vanilla noise marine is an impossible combination of rules and vanilla plague marine is just a bad unit for it’s points.

            The cults are not the worst units in the codex but they are far from good regular stuff is better than they are.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    With you on the Plastic Dreadclaw, as long as they base it on the super baroque now unavailable FW one. That model in itself, if it had decent rules could really help CSM.

    • nurglitch

      I prefer the smoother Anvillus pattern. You can always add cruft to a smooth model, but shaving flair and participation awards off of a model is always a hassle.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        the Anvillus looks good for Heresy, but it should look more encrusted after 10K years of Chaosification.

        • nurglitch

          That’s just it, you can sell a smooth model and an extra sprue of cruft for people who want that sort of thing, like the Chaos Land Raider and the Chaos Rhino. I like my models smooth and free of such decoration, and removing the molded on stuff is an huge hassle.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            additional baroque trim sprues for things like rhinos, land raiders, dreadclaws etc would be big sellers I’m sure.

  • DeCold

    I’d still have new traitor guard codex any day of the year tbh.

    • Mike Holmberg

      IA13?

      • DeCold

        NEW traitor guard codex.

  • Malisteen

    Traitor Legions is a colossal step forward, but still somewhat hamstrung by a poorly designed and badly out of date core codex, and even more limited by a handful of other factions in the same game that went through their design without any restraint or discipline.

    I’m more confident about GW’s direction vis a vis chaos marines than I have been in a decade, but there’s still a ways to go.

    • Nyyppä

      It’s a step, sure, but mostly just sideways. WB got nothing, IW/NL got mostly useless rules, BL has an alpha strike but that’s it, AL just spams cultists and avoids WLK to the end, TS is not viable but has more ways to not be viable than it used to, WE got ways to reach melee but still is unable to actually kill anything with armor, EC got something minor and DG is now playable. That’s pretty far from a colossal step forward.

      • Malisteen

        Though I’d personally argue with you on all of your nitpicks save Word Bearers, I did not mean to say this was a colossal step forward in power. That’s where being hamstrung by the core book comes in. What it is is a colossal step forward in design philosophy, since we’re seeing design focus specifically on the marine elements, as opposed to everything but, and we’re seeing a return of subfaction differentiation after more than a decade of stubbornly refusing to deliver that despite the overwhelming majority of the CSM player base wanting it.

        The original 3rd edition CSM book was also terrible, for many of the same reasons that the 4th and 6th ed books were terrible. Few options, bad points costs, etc. It didn’t have the same core rule problems rendering rhinos such a poor delivery option for melee units, but still.

        Around the time the 3.5 vehicle and assault phase rules were coming out, we also started seeing the Index Astartes legion articles with sublist rules, along with rules for cult terminators, cultist units, and actual options for daemon princes. As with the traitor legions supplement now, These rules represented a giant leap forward in design philosophy for chaos, but didn’t move the needle much competitively because they were still hamstrung by the 3.0 CSM codex. But then the 3.5 CSM codex came, carrying that design philosophy, that spirit of “let chaos marines be diverse, fun, and good, and make the faction about the legions” made its way into the new core book design, resulting in the strongest and most diverse faction ruleset chaos has ever seen.

        I can’t say whether the design mindset in traitor legions will make its way into a new CSM codex in 8th edition. Even if it did, the problems now aren’t just the chaos codex itself being too weak, but rather a number of options in other books being too strong, so unless we see some of the more broken stuff in the game tuned down, I’m not sure the competitive scene will be fixed at all. But I will say that the design philosophy for Chaos Marines on display in traitors hate is worlds better than what we’ve seen in decades, and actually has me looking forward to a new codex in a way that I basically haven’t been since the 6th ed book came out and basically only managed to be the 4e book but worse.

        • Nyyppä

          The design mindset seems to still be to make some things thought to be popular stupidly op compared to things that are seen as less popular. It’s been like this for a loooong time.

          • Malisteen

            I think it’s less “popular = op” and more “we don’t play test, and our designers don’t engage with the game on a competitive level, so it’s a total dice roll whether any new unit or option will be op or worthless.” Same with rules for new units – GW is often accused of making new stuff op to sell models, but that’s all confirmation bias, and ignores things like possessed, dark apostles, the helbrute, or half the new thousand sons line, all fantastic new kits that had garbage rules on release.

            Like, look. Khorne is pretty popular. Arguably the most popular chaos god. But world eaters aren’t the strongest legion in the new book, at first glance death guard are. But then, take a look inside the world eaters. Theoretically, berserkers should be the most popular unit, but these new rules really fail to give you any reason to run them, something many world eaters players have complained about even as the benefits they do get for other units are, while noticeably shy of what death guard get, still on the high end if you look at all the legions on the whole.

            Or Black Legion, who are theoretically (admittedly not in practice, but still) the most popular and populus legion, and they arguably get the least out of this book (I think word bearers have the least good/exciting set of legion rules, but at least their artifacts and such are actually new), and certainly are far from the top competitively. Maybe if 8e gives chaos back our homing beacons, or if deep strike scatter is changed in some significant way (scatter only d6 instead of 2d6?), but for now? Yeah, one of the most popular legions, one of the least interesting/effective sets of legion rules.

            Death Guard are the strongest not because GW likes nurgle or because they think nurgle is the most popular, but because the kinds of bonuses that exist in the game that fit nurgle thematically are just better than those that fit other themes. You don’t have to get creative to make nurgle themed abilities good in the game as it currently exists.

            Anyway, what I find encouraging is that they’re at least trying to put some attention into what the CSM player community actually wants to play, as opposed to stubbornly going out of their way to do exactly the opposite, which has been the apparent mind set for the last decade or so.

          • Nyyppä

            Looking at the stuff legions got and what the game has already in it rules wise the Traitor Legions is a pretty clear f’ up. Everything they needed to make that work is already there. For example the WB should not get perils on any doubles from summoning, they should all have Zealot by default and preferred enemy from veterans against imperials (UM should have it against them), the cultists should return automatically instead on 4+ and should be deployed via DS at that point and their sorcerers should be in use instead of the apostles since they are essentially one and the same thing. They would still be next to useless but at least they would be true to the fluff.

            Not the only way to do it but one good way to do it still. GW did not even try. Because it’s CSM. Obviously. Had this been marines….oh yeah, we had one of these for marines and it’s almost exclusively good. I wonder why.

  • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

    You can’t play regular guard as renegade because of the faction/allegiance system. Vrakisan Renegade guard (unending host) still outperforms CSM. You can, however, use loyalist rules for Traitor Legions and are still much better off (unless you’re playing Death Guard).

  • Bram Achternaam

    I still swear by the individual horus heresy Legion rules. What can I say? The age of darkness army list combined with cool and useful Legion rules, that are also in line with the lore! A geek like me can ask for nothing more.

    • Nyyppä

      Oh, I don’t know. Some of the legions there are really boring and/or good compared to others. HH is a better game but it’s still 40k ish and that’s not good for it.

  • DJ860

    10,000 years have passed in real space. Some of them have probably only been away from real space for a couple of years in the warp.

  • ZeeLobby

    Who cares! 8th edition incoming!

  • eehaze

    CSM vehicles, especially daemon engines, still kind of suck. Their formations are not good, and they don’t receive any legion bonuses.

    A new IA13 with additional formations would make for a very Merry Chaos-tmas.

    • E65

      No.

      GW must bring CSM into line with a new core codex. Doing so further validates the good work they began with Thousand Sons and Traitor Legions and would also fix the issue with Chaos vehicles.

      As an aside, I would like to see Epic inspired Daemon Engine kits released for Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slannesh.

      Could have some scratch building fun right now doing a Tzeentch Doomwing “HellTurkey”. Maybe a Slannesh Subjugator “Chaos Knight” too.

  • jeff white

    castrate existing op codices and discourage uber-competitive deck/list building bs.
    problem solved.

    • Muninwing

      easiest way to do this?

      fix the points-algorithm and reapply it to every unit in every army.

      • You think there’s an algorithm?

        That’s so sweet! 🙂

        • Muninwing

          oh, it’s obvious that the “algorithm” is more like a drunk shouting at traffic than an actual game system…

          by “fix” i mean “actually bother to construct and consistently use, instead of kludge it together and hope for the best”

    • Karru

      This is something that many people seem to completely ignore. Countless posts about CSM needing to be brought the level with SM/Eldar. No one ever saying that SM/Eldar should be the ones that are brought to the level with everyone else. Making formations tiered and never give anything for free would be a good start. Tiered in this situation would be something like the Thousand Sons formations. Take minimal units and you get some benefits and if you take it to the max, you get all the benefits. This would mean that taking a formation in a low point game wouldn’t be as beneficial as taking a CAD.

      Next up would be to use the Age of Darkness rules as a base. Only Troops can capture objectives, this also means that their transports cannot capture objectives. AoD also restricts LoW spam and makes Troops way more important, once again making “CAD” more favourable to Formations in a regular game. This brings the game once again more toward balance. There are other fixes that this brings to the game as well.

      The largest unbalance maker in the game right now is the Formation/Alternative Detachment and CAD spam. This allows for super easy ways to bring the strongest units you have to the table and unfortunately this is why Eldar and SM are so powerful. Eldar can spam Wraithknights and Warp Spiders, SM can spam Grav and bring insanely powerful Psykers with their formation.

      Removing formations, alternative detachments and stuff like that would make the game incredibly more balanced that it is now. And by removing them, I mean make them less useful in smaller games and more powerful in large games.

      • Nyyppä

        These have been suggested, numerous times, here, and as many times it has been pointed out that this will not happen. GW is not going to alienate the biggest money sources it has by making their objects of fandom comparably weak in a new release. The same goes with the rest of the ideas you presented, most of which are good and most of which will just make the status quo reset…which will alienate customers and that will not do.

  • Muninwing

    “IT’S OK TO MAKE CSMs INDIVIDUALLY BETTER (and pricier) THAN LOYALIST MARINES.”

    yes.

    but making them pricier without making them better? that’s been the argument.

    the points-algorithm needs recalibration and reapplication. with that, the game will get more balanced by default.

  • euansmith

    Betteridge’s Law, “Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.”

    • Next week it will be: “15 reasons why Chaos Marines beat regular Marines – you won’t believe number 7!!!”

      And the thumbnail will be of something super cool that doesn’t actually appear in the article.

  • Xodis

    Anyone expecting a major Codex overhaul (Which CSM desperately need) should share what they are smoking. These releases are 7e expansions and probably, at best, a test run for an 8e codex.

    What GW is getting right: Fluff, fluff into rules, and direction of models for CSM. 1KSons didn’t look or feel like SM’s with spikes, and thats a good thing. Unique “cult” like unit? Pretty awesome, and make for good cannon fodder, which all CSM usually use.

    What GW needs to fix in an 8e codex: Points, delivery options of melee troops, points, Legion Rules whose entire focus is not negated by SM’s BS ATSKNF rule, different aesthetic of the dinobots, and finally points.

  • vyrago

    Has GW finally gotten X right?

    No. Always no.

  • Sloordrigg Metselverk

    The real “trajedy” is still your spelling, Larry.

  • krisbrowne42

    I’ve only gotten to play my Alpha Legion once since the release, but it was the most fun I’ve had playing CSM in years, pretty much since 7th released.

    The CSM/Chosen/Cultists infiltrating across the board, with Shrouded to have a chance to survive if you don’t go first, is pure-to-form for their strategy focus.

    The hydra-respawn for cultists (1 4+ chance to respawn with Outflank for the formation, 1 4+ chance to respawn without outflank) is so tastily fluffy for the army that it feels like someone other than GW did it.

    I’m using the Mk4 bodies from Calth for the majority of my force, planning to stand-in Contemptors for hellbrutes (only 1 so far) and adding in the Mk3 bodies from Prospero to finish out things… Really, would the masters of subterfuge allow themselves to look like monsters? They’d never fit in, never sway populaces to their cause…

  • Nyyppä

    If the legions were at least internally balanced the new codex, if that ever comes, could fix that. Now, as things are, if they make WB viable DG will just take the lead with a huge margin to SM, eldar and such.

    It’s not good, even remotely.