Pimpcron: 40K 8th Edition – Don’t Ruin It

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What started out great is now … starting to turn…

Sup bruhs? Its ya boi, Pimpcron and I just got back from the friggin’ gym where I did like 17 set reps of reverse squat lever presses and it was siiiiiiiiiiick! I was like, “No pains, no gains bro!” and the people at the gym were like, “You’re a machine!” Then I was all like, “Oh … yeah. I guess I am. This explains why I wasn’t feeling pain.” What an awkward moment. On a side note, I got the leg press machine’s number; I like my machines to be a bit thick, ya-know-what-I’m-saying???


Ah, I apologize for that. The raging sea of creativity in me gets a bit silly from time to time. I took my meds now, I’m leveled.

8th Started Out Great

I have liked 8th from the start, even if it isn’t perfect. I’ve talked before about things I missed liked templates and rear-arcs on vehicles. But overall I like this edition and most people I talk to do too. When I had my panel about our thoughts on 8th edition at Shorehammer, people had some things they didn’t care about. When the time came to show of hands if this edition was better overall than 7th, it was pretty unanimous that they thought 8th edition was in the right direction.

Ya know what I liked about 8th Edition? It was SIMPLE. Tactically I could use a tad bit more crunch, but there was one rulebook and every army was on even footing more or less. Not multiple FAQS, supplements, and White Dwarf entries. I was happy not to have to bring four different books to play my Chaos Marines. I was really excited about this new direction.

If you ask me, there’s only one direction worth going in. #1D4life

Then They Messed It Up

If I understand correctly, we have a rulebook that is supposed to explain the rules: the dozen or so pages of rules. Then you have your index for each army with rules. Cool, simple enough. Then we got FAQs almost right out of the gate. Alright, that’s kind of nice to have clarification immediately, especially when we used to wait months or years for FAQs. It sounded like they have their act together.

Then codices came out, which is awesome! But wait, they took some units out of the codex that were in the index. It took further FAQs to explain that if it is in the index, you can use the unit even if it’s not in the codex. Mmmmkay. Getting into a little mess here but it should be fine as long as they don’t over do it.

Look, even this bouncy ball is concerned.

You just bought the Guard codex? That’s exciting! But wait, a very short time after, they FAQ your points and some of your rules, so now you immediately have to start writing in your books or carrying FAQs around with you. That’s … sounding a lot like 7th edition now. Please Geedub, don’t do this again. Don’t go down this dark road like you just tried to correct.

Hey! Chapter Approved is here to change your rulebook! Come on guys! I thought this was supposed to be a fun and creative yearly. It turns out they threw in a couple of interesting things, but overall it was just more FAQs more or less.

I’m Not Mad, I’m Just Disappointed

Listen Geedub, your mother and I are becoming worried about you. You said you were clean and off the (rules) supplements. Now we find FAQs in your bedroom?! We all agreed that you wouldn’t use the opinions of every single whiner in your community so seriously. Now it seems you are just following the crowd again. Your story is always changing, and it makes it hard to believe you. First Scourges could ride in Raiders, now they can’t. Conscripts aren’t at all what you said they were just weeks prior. And your treatment of Storm Ravens has been all over the place. We just can’t handle all of the mood swings you’re having. The reason why you had to get clean is that the multiple books per army just to play your game was getting out of hand. Don’t go down this road again Geedub.

Full Disclosure

I do NOT hate this edition, I like most of it. But I am really getting worried about the stacks of books that are accumulating in my game room again just to play an army. Let’s not do this again. Keep it simple, and get your act together BEFORE you publish something. And, don’t just knee-jerk reaction nerf stuff at the drop of a hat.

~Are you getting worried about the rules bloat too?

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  • Wampasaurus

    I live in the 21st Century. I have a tiny computer that fits in my pocket with most of the accumulated knowledge of human history on it, and that includes all the rules and FAQs ever published by Games Workshop. The also have apps out there that do all your maths for you and removes that burden from my enjoyment of the game.

    • chris harrison

      But having to remember that all the rules you need are in a bunch of different books must be tedious. Writing in the margins would be my solution of choice.

    • Simon Chatterley

      I have the latest IPad with all my rules on. Within seconds is true in the sense that minutes are made up of seconds. Fast it is not.

      Getting to the point where I screen shot all I need and set up a photo album of them. Which is really no different from printing them and having them in a folder.

      Plus on in a full day event I will need to charge it at least twice so requires a plug as my fully charged auxiliary power pack gets it back to about 70%

      Part of me does miss a book

      • ZeeLobby

        Thank you! There’s no way digital is even close to as fast. I’ve been to tournaments. I’ve watched people flick through iPads, even with bookmarks, and take 10 times as long. Then the screen locks while showing your opponent. Then the battery dies before the end of round 2. Etc. All things I’ve seen IRL.

        Unless devices get predictive assistants to the point where it’s flipping to what you need before you unlock it, it’ll never be an advancement.

        • Valourousheart

          My issue with the digital version is the lack of retention. I’m not sure I could explain why, but I seem to have better recall from things I read on paper than things I read on a screen.

          But all that said, the way you build your army is what makes it simple or complicated.

          One list I used to play had 4 different factions, Sisters of Battle, Cypher with some Fallen, a Couple assassins and an Imperial Knight. The only thing I was missing was Grey Knights and Death Watch. It isn’t GW’s fault I made that list complicated. And that doesn’t even touch on if some one is bringing FW.

          I also ran a Ravenwing list with 3 unit profiles and 5 weapon profiles. After a month or 2 I could play that army without books without mistakes.

          Some of the blame still rests at the feet of the player.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean, but the company should always provide tools that make things they allow easy to play and reference.

          • Valourousheart

            Oh yeah I can get behind more game friendly reference materials. Like the data card packs that they released for AOS armies. I would jump on packs like that for the 40k codexes.

            Only issue I have with the AOS ones is the amount of white space on the cards. They could turn the card 90 degrees, uses a bigger font, add a picture, or something to make better use of the space on the card. 6 point font is fine when you have a ton to cram into small space, but looks like bad copy when 60-80% of the cared is white space.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I’m not a fan of the AoS cards at all. I mean really what I’d like is similar to War Room 2 for Warmachine/Hordes. You build a list, it puts all relevant cards into a saved stack, and then if you click on symbols or special rules on those cards it automatically opens the place in the rulebook.

            Now War Room has it’s own issues, and I think GW could make something that’s even better (and more importantly faster). It’d be cool if selecting a rule brought up it’s latest text and any relelvant FAQ rulings appended to the bottom.

            I mean in the interim I think cards that have all the relevant rules put on them would hep in the interim, but you still have to dive into the books and rulebook at some point.

            I mean these are things a living rulebook simply needs, in order for the game not to become a confused mess.

          • Valourousheart

            Weren’t you just complaining about digital game aids being slow for tournaments? I know we live in a digital age, but the whole reason I play tabletop games it to get away from computer screens. So I’ll take cards, books and bookmarks. And heck the cards can even be used as bookmarks. Win-win-win.

          • ZeeLobby

            I have an issue with digital PDFs with no links, no indexes and primitive navigation. If it’s a book in digital form it’s frustrating more than anything else. Now if you have an interactive app with smart links to rules, ways to track damage, etc. It’s pretty awesome.

            I have no problem with physical, in fact I prefer it. But it struggles with living rules, when a unit might be updated several times in a year.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Ha true. I also have this ancient machine, honed over 1000s of years of evolution called a brain…it’s amazing how much it can simply remember….and its came free at birth!

      • euansmith

        Mine’s a buggy as fur; I need a clean reboot.

        • memitchell

          Want to reboot your brain? Raise teenagers.

      • Koonitz

        “Are you sure that’s what it is? Can you show me?”

        So much for the speed of the brain. Don’t expect others to trust your brain.

        • Spacefrisian

          No probs you let them figure out you were right after they searched for it for 5 minutes.

    • Tim

      This is the proper solution to this issue. They should be ashamed it took them this long to get to it though.

    • Kinsman

      I’m with you, man. I can’t grasp complaining about bad rules and slow FAQs for a LARGE game and then complaining for balanced rules and fast FAQs for a game that is STILL LARGE.

      If we want less FAQs, we need to play smaller games. Shadespire is a great choice.

      • Vekhr

        Balanced rules?:D It is 40k topic;D

    • Spacefrisian

      3 times word on a desktop and you know youre army rules from mind, that saves the trouble of even bothering with that 21st mini computer.

  • zeno666

    An article I can somewhat agree with. This edition is a mess already.

    • ZeeLobby

      Time for 9th. And while we’re at it. Let’s just judge the community as being simpler than we thought and strip out the rest of the interesting core mechanics.

      • JL

        *sigh* So much for the Sisters codex. Back of the queue you go ladies.

        • ZeeLobby

          Hehe. I have no doubt they’ll release the full line at some point. It just might be a decade or two down the road still…

        • memitchell

          Don’t let anyone tell you whining about Sister’s is still funny or clever.

          • JL

            Someone’s got to keep that dead horse down. Might get back up at any moment.

          • memitchell

            Horse corpses do need constant beating. 😉

      • KingAceNumber1

        Shooting: Both opponents roll a die, the player who rolls lower loses that many models from the squad

        Assault: Both opponents roll a die, the player who rolls lower loses that many models from the squad

        Perfect game achieved /s

      • marxlives

        Ya haters are going to hate. It is about focusing on constructive criticism and not just criticism as a creator.

    • Heinz Fiction

      Well, this game gives the players a lot of freedom on how to play it. You don’t ‘need’ index+codex+FAQ and what ever else. You could just play with a codex if you don’t want all that hassle.

      • zeno666

        I really feel that its the other way around.
        If I want to use all the models I have to bring the index + codex and so on.
        I could restrict myself to the options available in the codex (the ones GW carry models for).

      • HeadHunter

        You can disregard the FAQ, or the rules, or whatever, as long as your opponent agrees. but if you’re going that far, you might as well play Cowboys & Indians. “Bang! I shot you!” “Did not, you missed!”
        Rules exist for a reason. The problem is that the “new GW” that fanboys hump so avidly has already given up on their promise that you don’t need to carry around a bunch of books and magazines to play.

    • Spacefrisian

      The different names for the same thing makes it a mess, all those names for feel no pain is a prime example.

      • zeno666

        That one is a real mysterie to me.
        I’ve heard the GW-can-do-no-wrong-crowd say that its because they want to incorporate fluff into the rules…
        Ok, why can’t they do both?
        Something like this: “Lord of Death: This model has the Feel No Pain ability on a 5+”

  • Paul Davies

    Just been an obvious cash grab in my mind. Few new real releases but so many codecs and rules

    • Anthony Keen

      oh yeah, all those expensive FAQs.

      There are new codexes so all the armies can be updated for 8th. Would you rather everything stay in indexes?

      • Paul Davies

        No I think they have done a good job but you can’t deny that it’s an obvious cash grab. There really hasn’t been a whole lot of work out into the new codecies fluff generally the same, points tweeted and new stratagem given. Worth £20 a pop? Not really if you play more than one army.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. When we heard that codexes were staying, and they were going to pump out 20 in a year, it was kind of disheartening.

          • Will Evans

            Yeah, because waiting 6+ years for them to get back around to the codex for your army was just greeeeatttt.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well. How about posting the army rules online for free? Or in an interactive app? Some medium that won’t just be bought and replaced 6 months later? Or require 3 other codexes, a faq, a chapter approved and beta rules to play?

      • Drpx

        “Would you rather go back to armies being months or years behind one another and having to buy tons of pricey books or would you rather everything be updated at once?”

        • ZeeLobby

          I’d rather have everything updated all the time in real time. Then release fluff and extra rules books every couple months if they want.

        • NNextremNN

          So all the index armies without a codex yet are not already months behind again?

        • HeadHunter

          I would rather they take the time to do it right the first time around, rather than day one patches.

      • lmn118

        Yes to be honest, since they were cheaper, inclusive and not 90% filled with reprinted fluff and decade old artwork.

        FAQ’s are free except they over rule aall those books you just bought so now I’ve got 7 useless books on my shelf with the expectation by GW to buy another Chapter Approved all within 6 months and all for, it seems to me, so a minority of players can play tournaments.

        So yes it is a cash grab or the result of piss poor planning, execution and thought.

        Think of this way, young johnny goes into a shop, having played First Strike/Know No Fear/Dark Imperium he decided on a Guard army. Buys the Codex, £25, a start collecting set and goes home.

        A week later he goes back to the shop for a game to be told, oh your codex is wrong you should be using Chapter Approved that’s another £25.

      • NNextremNN

        Yes the few things that were added in most Codices could easily have been added to the indicies.

    • Moonsaves

      “This edition is just a cash grab. So many new models but no new Codexes” – 7th edition

      • Drpx

        Formations and allies were the cash grab.

    • Spade McTrowel

      Have you seen GW prices??

      Just existing is a SUCCESSFUL cash grab.

    • Nosebleed

      Personally it was a cash grab since Day 1. A more expensive Dark Imperium was released in Day 1. Even if people are only interested in the bundled miniatures, they didn’t have a choice.

      Then a couple of weeks later, a similar and cheaper albeit slightly less miniatures set, Know No Fear, gets released.

      If you intend to give options/cheaper alternatives to entry-level players, why not give it since Day 1?

      I understand companies utilises sale tactics to increase their revenue, but this incident lacks taste IMO.

      • zeno666

        This, and the novels released with the codexs is mainly about pushing the new primaris models down your throat.

  • eldannardo

    Nothing wrong with a living ruleset, adapt and overcome.

    GW can’t win really – “this edition sucks, it needs fixing, needs constant FAQs.” GW fixes, brings out constant FAQs “this edition sucks it keeps changing, there are too many sources to reference.”

    • Vekhr

      They could win:D They could make solid ruleset that doesnt need new FAQ every month:D So… yes, there is win situation for GW:D
      Funny:D You made my day;D

      • Marcus Clark

        For smaller games like flames or war, star wars empire, etc etc sure its easier to keep rules up to date, tweaks and fixes. However this is a massive game with 20+ major/ minor armies. each with anything like 30 plus untis. Then all their special traits, spells, and everything else that makes them unique. I think anyone would struggle to make anything perfect.

      • zeno666

        They have proved about 8 times that they aren’t capable of writing those kind of rules 😉

        • ZeeLobby

          Now I believe this.

        • Will Evans

          I’ve always felt that GW should have just stuck to creating models, and outsourced the rules/playtesting to a company that actually designs games by trade (like FFG or some other dedicated game company).

          • zeno666

            Yeah I think that would be best for the game.

          • EnTyme

            You’d prefer having to buy a set of Pink Horrors to get the upgrade card you need to make your Leman Russ competitive? It’s bad enough Shadespire has faction cards that are only available in other kits. We don’t need that in 40k.

          • Induced Triggering

            How about having all the cards available for free to print off on the website (Privateer Press) or free in the app (Infinity)?

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Show me an modern wargame that does not have a pile of FAQs and Errata to go with it…..

        • Apocryphus

          Darklands! But then it’s rulebook is over 300 pages and 90% rules. It’s true that wargames have tons of faqs and errata, but you can’t deny that at this point it’s getting out of hand with 40k. I like that they’re fixing problems with the game, I don’t like that the game has as many problems as it does out if the gate.

        • euansmith

          Pimpcron’s (lord, I dislike that name) very own game, Brutality, is FAQ and Errata free. ;0

          • ZeeLobby

            Shhh. They don’t want actual answers!

          • Spade McTrowel

            Errata free doesn’t mean Error free 🙂

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. True. I’d be fine if they simply updated the rules and released changelogs (like video game developers). Sure that means you’d have to reread the core rules occasionally, but it’d reduce things back down to one source.

          • euansmith

            When we say the rule book is wrong, he just replies, “Well then you’re not reading it right!”


        • Kabal1te


        • Vekhr

          Just step out from GW box;) You will be amazeeeed;D

          • zeno666

            Best advice ever!

        • Define “pile.” Infinity has 11 pages with images, uses a larger font, and covers all the games factions. Considering the profits and experience that GW has, I think we could expect better from them.

          • Vekhr

            It is also more complex and complicated;D YET somehow it has less rules overall;D Magic of online rules;D

          • marxlives

            True the myth of the “pile of FAQS” really just shows that a person only plays one game and is giving their input from a bubble. Most games are the same length in FAQs as Infinity and the “advanced rules” are free with the unit stats free as well, and since they are digital assets if someone downloads the latest first and reads the rules they don’t even need the FAQs.

            I think with some people their wariness is justified. Having players buy a index, “advanced rules”, codex, chapter approved really sets the precedent for sales that rather than taking the step most other companies have already done in the industry GW may continue to support the pay to play rules that they have done before.

            I hope this is not to the case.

        • marxlives

          There are plenty but they keep keep their advanced rules and unit states free and constantly updated those digital assets.

        • Spacefrisian

          Bolt action, oh and a certain ex gw employer had a hand in it. Makes me wonder.

      • ZeeLobby

        This. Lol. I dunno why no one ever mentions this. I mean hell. Have a living free online rulebook in PDF where, shocker, we don’t need FAQs cause it’s just updated directly.

        • Vekhr

          Or online wiki with rules;) Or online builder with everything;) Or whatever, but not this codex/index/rb/errata/faq/chapter approved madness;) Yet I am happy to say ‘told ya so’ to my more enthusiastic about new GW friends;)

          • ZeeLobby

            Hehe, yeah, I dunno. There’s definitely ways to solve the problem. It is pretty funny to watch GW stumble back into the same problem it claimed it was running away from.

          • Vekhr

            Nah. As long as they claim they want to solve problem, codexes and chapter approved and other stuff sells;) People want to believe;)

          • Ultramarian

            why does it have it have to be free?

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean a subscription would work too, but I’m not rebuying a living ruleset with every change. Would you?

          • NNextremNN

            It doesn’t have to be free. But I could help bring people into the game without telling them they have to invest 100+ just for rules.

          • ZeeLobby

            Which is a serious complaint I hear every time I go to the game store.

          • Induced Triggering

            so we can spend that money on more models instead.

      • Walter Vining

        people could be less jerks and stop trying to make rules work in a way that they clearly will not

        • Apocryphus

          They could, but so long as people are people, this will continue to happen. That’s why we need accurate, clearly defined rules, so that those who like to bend the rules can’t.

    • disqus_yyglaTdo9o

      Exactly This.

    • Pimpcron

      You’re completely right. I feel bad for complaining, but this is more of a warning than actual anger. Please GW, don’t make this into 7th ed again. But you are right. They can’t win. The only way to win would be release a complete, clear, and competent rulesbook/codex the first time around. Proofread for goodness sake. Play test a bit.

      • Ultramarian

        Even with play testing they are only mere mortals. It’s a bit unfair to expect perfection, no matter what someone somewhere is going to be unhappy. If they tried to appease everyone we’d never see anything released

        • Apocryphus

          None of us expect perfection, at least I don’t, but some of these erratas are just plain common sense. How did Conscripts with Commisars essentially being immune to morale make it past playtesting? Now we have an over corrected problem with conscripts having little to no place in AM anymore. I think GW does playtest, but they playtest with the wrong mindset. They know how they want the game to be played, they practice restraint when building lists and make varied armies. They need to try to break their game wide open, playtest spam with everything, analyze the effects of 6 or more Smites in a list, or 12 Assassins blocking shooting to each other.

          • Ultramarian

            And I agree with you in regards to that but that only fixes the meta tourni players in general. No matter what rules will be bent to fit someone’s opinion unless GW brings back GW tournis or has brand ambassadors who run the tournis and can spot decision on rule issues

        • Pimpcron

          True, but sometimes it seems that there is no play testing at all. Some of these loop holes and poorly worded rules are no-brainers.

          • Ultramarian

            the loopholes are tough unless its 100% clear it can be exploited. for example the Ogryn bodyguard rule was takes the wound from the nearest character, people took that and twisted it to where they claimed they could bounce wounds around on 3 OBs because they all had the “character” rule even though it states they are accepting the roll in place of the character orginally wounded. They abused the wording to suit their personal gains when common sense and how it was intended was “look out sir” but because the writer is hoping on the reader to uses the Honor System its harder for those to be stopped. As for some of the spelling or clear mistakes I agree suck but I chalk it to human error. I applaud their attempts to fix their mistakes when they could just as easily say “oh well” but I do hope they hold people accountable.

          • Pimpcron

            Is this the part where I scream “GW Apologist!” to you? 😛 As a game designer, I can tell you that in most cases, it only takes some mental run-through to see many of these loopholes. Then you test it out to see if or how it needs tweaking. Obviously you wouldn’t catch all things, but it seems to me they are quite sloppy with their rules writing.

      • Induced Triggering

        Or…..make the rulebook include updates for the lifetime of that edition the way competitors do.

    • marxlives

      I think if the complete rules were free or advanced rules, unit stats and abilities for free, and they were digitally updated as well, there would be less clamoring. But when you buy something and it is in constant flux there are going to be hurt feelings because you bought it.

      For example, PP updates cards all the time and they did a rule update when it first released, however I have a free digital book that got updated and the cards are updated and I just print them out. So I am just buying the models, which is what I want anyway. If the book is cool, like Grymkin, THEN I buy it.

      If GW did the same thing the changes would be more welcomed. It is just a thing, if you are going to have a living ruleset like every other company out there in the market then make your digital assets free as well.

    • Ninety

      They could unify all the changes in easily downloadable digital codices.

      • Induced Triggering

        Yep….THIS. You could very easily sell the rulebook + a “faction pack” that includes everything you need and then a new PDF/Ebook file gets pushed out every time the rules get updated.

    • NNextremNN

      Maybe release the rules for free? and create a app for PC/Smartphone? Why do they have to charge for rules? Arn’t models and lore enough? I’d even argue that the cost of rules scare more customers away then they make money with them.

    • Induced Triggering

      You’re right.

      Funny how both Privateer Press and Corvus manage to have a “living ruleset” that doesn’t require you to purchase a new $50 book every two months.

      That don’t require you to purchase any updates whatsoever, because the rules for units are made available for free and if you do choose to buy them then your purchase includes all subsequent updates.

  • David

    I am attending a tourney in Feb and worked out I needed to bring a rulebook +Chapter aproved + an index + 3 codexs plus all the faq’s it is worse than 7th paperwise.

    • ZeeLobby

      It’s impressive that they’ve managed that in such short time.

    • Koonitz

      My question becomes “Why do you need 3 codices”?

      If the answer is “Because I am bringing more than one faction in my army.” Then I have no sympathy for you. If they reduced the books, you’d still need 3 codices. In 7th, you’d still need 3 codices, AND all the supplements for EACH for all the formations you’d want to bring (and trust me, you’d want to).

      • Apocryphus

        To be fair, my Slaanesh army will need the CSM and Daemon codexes plus the Chaos Index because I use some of the models not printed in the Codex, so that’s 3 books to play 1 faction.

      • Ultramarian

        I agree with this statement

  • King Renegado

    After GW hammered my Commissars into oblivion, and then further nerfed conscripts into uselessness (I only ever took one squad of 30 of them to camp an objective in the back. If you are one of the people that brought 100+ conscripts, I hate you.)
    I sold off my physical rule books and opted for digital rules.

    They may or may not be from some shady foreign sites that gave my computer all the viruses, but they were free, and I have the liberty to print out my own rule book that isn’t weighed down by useless pages of fluff and photos. (Fluff and imagery is fine, but for the sake of convenience, really needs to be detached from rules.)

    I don’t like carrying a library with me, and I don’t like taking time to scan through a digital document to find some specific paragraph that has a word that shows up 400+ times.

    GW needs to get with the decade. Release free nitty gritty rules like they do with Sigmar, and update the files after rules have been playtested on the tabletop (not theoryhammer.)
    Making us actually pay them to amend or over-amend their mistakes is something I refuse to do.

    • King Renegado

      Plus having everything in my own binder is nice when it is all said and done.

    • ZeeLobby

      As stolen, I think the current digital rules solution is at least workable. For events in the past I’ve def created a binder with just relevant rules, and it’s by far the fastest. If they had an app that let you navigate around them just as easily that’d be great.

    • euansmith

      Maybe a better solution to Conscripts and Commissars (that’s a great name for a depressing RPG) would have been to allow the Commissar to buff the Conscripts, but have a chance each turn, that one of the Conscripts frags the Commissar. Regular Guardsmen would be too disciplined to kill their Commissar, but the rabble might do it.

  • MarcoT

    The Index requirement is just for old farts like us, that have ancient minis or conversions. I don’t fault GW for it.

    The FAQ’s and specifically point fixes are what we asked for ourselves, and I’ll gladly take the bookkeeping over fixed army balance for years on end. Besides, get real, almost everyone uses one of the semi-legal apps to build their armies, which avoid this problem. And the digital codex buyers are also doing just fine.

    In the end this game is better than ever by miles. The days where you could deploy and instantly see that you’ve basically lost are over, which is great. Now just get rid of that horrendous first turn advantage and we’ll enter a golden age.

  • I told you it was going to happen. But nobody would listen to me 😀

    • ZeeLobby

      Liar! XD

  • Slippy

    Make an app or whatever that automatically updates. Problem solved. I’d pay for a subscription. All these books ughhh.

    • ZeeLobby


  • Majere613

    I do think that if they’re going to tweak the points of models in things like Chapter Approved, they need to have all the points for an army in the updated list, not just those that have changed. Trying to write a list in a pre-CA codex that had points changes in CA is a pain in the neck, especially since the layout is a bit esoteric.

    We really do need that army builder app- and one with correct and up-to-date points in it, at that.

    • ZeeLobby

      Agreed. Other games have this out there. GW just needs to modernize it’s rules approach.

      • zeno666

        And the rules themselves 😉

        • Vekhr

          Yup…. looking at 40k ruleset I want to say ‘this belongs to museum’ ;D

  • Grumpy Scot

    It’s a living game. Get over it or get digital rules. Or just play as printed with your friends who do the same.

    • ZeeLobby

      I wouldn’t mind if it was the digital rules I already paid for that simply got updated in line. It’s the necessity for a digital index, several digital codexes, several digital FAQs and a digital CA which is annoying.

    • zeno666

      They they should have living rulebooks as well. And they don’t.
      They’re too lazy to update their own PDF’s

    • Vekhr

      EVERY game on the market is living game with living rules;D
      And ONLY this game has such issues;D
      Gw messed it up;D Get over it;D

  • Arcangelo Daniaux

    I Agree, playing Blood Angels I’m already forced to have the rulebook, the chapter approved, the codex and the index to be able to play, juste because they forgot one important thing : All Blood Angels characters NEED JUMPACKS !!!

    And no, no jump pack for sanguinary priest,… Really ?

    • zeno666

      Yepp. That codex feels very rushed

  • Atogrim

    This time of the year again? How much posts of this kind did we have since 8th came out? 3? 4?

  • orionburn III

    I agree that it’s been frustrating with the rules flux. Just when I feel like I know my index rules I get a codex and things change. Okay, no problem, few things I have to relearn. Now a few weeks later here’s a FAQ to your codex. In another month or two I’ll be comfortable with all the changes…but hopefully that’s where things stop. And to be fair from what GW published last week about the proposed FAQ/Chapter Approved schedule things should calm down.

    2018 will continue to be a headache until all the codexes are out. It’s been a big shake-up in the change from 7th to 8th. I’m sure I’ll get mocked for this but I personally feel things will start to stablize once all the codexes are out. Yes, I realize then we begin anew with the complaints of “my codex is the oldest and out of date and all the other ones are way better than miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.”

    Change always brings pain. Personally they threw out too many rules for my likings from 7th to 8th. And just as they went from not listening to the community to being open to the public I don’t want it going too far to the extreme either. A few weeks back I was reading comments from people saying Orks are now OP and need fixed…after how many years of people saying Orks are terrible and aren’t worth playing. I do feel bad for GW in that they will never win. People have the amazing ability to find something to complain about no matter what…lol http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2380ae33825e4be36e5b1d3c6096f23d868549197268fd0b7019c3ef63abe7e4.jpg

    • NNextremNN

      Change is what brings them money this will never change. After the last new codex comes out they will bring campaings and supplements again … maybe even before. And if not that then they will start with Marine Codex again.

  • ZeeLobby

    Exactly why I’m waiting a year. The real issue is that 7th edition left the game in a horrible mess. 8th is on the path towards making the game better, but it was never going to happen overnight. The fist year was always going to be turbulent.

    • zeno666

      A wise choice.
      Sure, the release might need a few pointers.
      But when GW is done rushing out their codexes they’ll start to release campaign books with additional rules.
      So in a year you’ll need even more books to play this game 🙂

    • I might just wait for the rollout of an app plus 6 months.

      • ZeeLobby

        Probably a safer bet. Just don’t think I can wait indefinitely. I don’t think they’ll ever be right where I’d like them to be. And there are other systems that are… So it makes it tough. Lol

        • By “wait” I mean I haven’t sold my 40k stuff yet.

  • TB0N3

    Just put the rules and army builder online and free. if a company like Corvus Belli can do it, surely a Behemoth like GW can too

    • A company liike Corvus Belli doesn’t have to pay shareholders and only has a handful of people to make sure are paid.

      • Marco Marantz

        and there lies part of the problem. GWs focus now is about money – share value and paying a dividend…not creating the best product they can and let its quality translate into monetary success. GW must now go out of its way to create new products to sell.

        • orionburn III

          Now? People have been laying that claim against GW for years. Avoiding the whole argument of *gasp* a company wanting to make money it comes down to the simple fact that if you make a crap product you won’t survive. If you really don’t think that GW is making an effort to better the game as a whole then I don’t know what to tell you. There were a lot of years where GW tuned out and focused on selling models and could care less about the game and people playing it.

          • ZeeLobby

            Lol. The codexes were written when the indexes we’re released. If that’s not a cash grab for shareholders, I’m not sure what is. There’s making money, and then there’s milking customers. Not all companies generate profit the same way, and as smart consumers, we should point out when we know which one their doing. Not just lump it all under “well they’re a company that just makes money, der…”.

          • orionburn III

            This horse has been beaten so many times I’m not even going to bother anymore…

          • ZeeLobby

            Then stop beating it. Stop using “businesses make money” as a justification for any action. You have the power to end this abuse! 😀

          • Nonsense. In the Capitalism cult, anything is fine as long as you make money. In all fairness though, as long as gamers continue to support this behavior, GW will keep doing it. People who can see what they are doing (leaving the true believers out of it) and buy from them anyway aren’t part of the problem. They are the problem.

          • Marco Marantz

            Now and since they went public and went on the stock exchange. That mandated what their focus is, hence my original point. I cant blame them for wanting to make money but whats the priority? Churning out stuff even if it is unnecessary or bad to make $$$ or make something that is as best as it can be?

        • The thing is, this has been GW’s focus and people’s main source of complaint since the mid 1990s when the plastic skeleton box was released for the shockingly absurd price of $20 for 20 plastic models.

          The land raider coming out at $45 stirred a lot of anger.

          If they aren’t creating a quality product, they wouldn’t be able to sell it. And this would translate into no dividends either.

          So we are stuck in this between area where their stock price is at record highs right now, but people claim their product is still shoddy.

          Now… I’m not a fan of their rules because their rules are too simplistic and board gamey to me, but hey they have a lot of people spending a lot of money so they are doing something right.

          I don’t see how not giving out free rules is not focusing on quality.

          Gamers are notoriously a cheap-skate lot. If they released free rules, they’d take a big hit in their financials. Especially since the rules burn and churn is how they keep players that already have a force buying into the cycle.

          AOS showed me how little gamers will put into campaign supplements or things not directly related to tournament play.

          If I didn’t need to pay for rules, my collection is huge enough that II’d never have to spend a dime again.

          That would be great. For me. Not so great for the company. And if I was a stockholder I’d vote to have leadership that promoted free rules out on their rear.

          • ZeeLobby

            Eh. A lot of people keep buying new models regardless. I mean the majority of GW’s “new” models over the past decade we’re just remakes of old models. I think they could survive fine. That said you’re right, they wouldn’t continue with record breaking profits for shareholders, so we’ll never really see it.

          • I think they could survive too with free rules, but they’d have to shrink the company down, close all their stores, can white dwarf, and match the small size of their competitors to do that, as well as go private to be able to pay the bills, keep their developers paid, and push out the quality of their models.

            A lot of gamers would say thats great. But thats a failure as a business from a business perspective.

            I think gamers in general need to shoulder some responsibility in not impulse buying and in the case of the index to codex change we saw where indexes were invalidated right away… exercise some restraint and wait for their codex or just be ok with eating the $25 the index cost and is now invalidated.

            A few of us still buy models. I know I already had a huge death guard fw army. And then I bought all the new GW death guard stuff anyway.

            But I’d say there’s a great number of gamers that are still using models from the late 90s and early 2000s and won’t spend another dime, and those guys still buy rules and thats why I see GW’s codex churn and burn as successful.

          • ZeeLobby

            I think you might be over-exaggerating with that first paragraph. I don’t think it’d make nearly the impact you assume. The profit margins on their models are much greater than those on their books, especially now that they’ve modernized with heavily CAD-based design. Sure they might have to slim down the company, but your expected impact is probably way too high. Not to mention the ample room this would open up for releasing books that are actually more interesting to the entirety of the player base rather than one faction (campaign books, supplements, etc.). My 3 local FLGS make way more in model sales for GW than book sales.

            The majority of GW’s profits are still models. I think you’re completely underestimating the amount of model bulk GW moves in a year. That’s where the majority of their profits come from. Sure there’s some old blokes sitting around with armies from the 90s, but that’s a minority in their player base. In fact, many of the rules changes were emphasized heavily on competitive play because competitive players buy a lot of models every year.

            I mean even back in it’s hayday, they were only releasing 4/5 books a year. and to only a small fraction of their base. In some ways the previous CEO’s claim that they are primarily a model company is 100% true, at least as far as profit generation goes. I think they could completely do away with paid core and army rules, and still operate staggering profits. They just need to make the game not suck.

          • I don’t have their financials in front of me. I’ll just use a local example since I have those.

            Lets say that a hardcover rule book runs $40. I know they vary but I’ll use $40. Thats what a lot of AOS books are now anyway.

            Company put out about five realmgate books and then a book on terrain (Dominions of Chaos). Of all those books in my city, they sold about ten realmgate books in total and another four or five Dominions of Chaos books. Very very small sales.

            Then they released army books for about five or six factions that were not needed since the rules could be had for free. It had fluff and extra scenarios.

            They again sold like two or three of each book total. Very small sales.

            Suddenly they put rules that you couldn’t get for free in the books and sales of AOS books exponentially rose.

            So we went from maybe selling two or three books ($40 ea, $120 or so in revenue) to selling 15 or 20 of each because it had rules you couldn’t get for free for an increase to roughly $600 – $800)

            Magnify that across all stores.

            Is that enough to shut them down if they keep free rules? No. Is it a giant chunk of revenue that they lose? Hell yes.

            If I’m running a company, and I’m p utting out campaign books and what not that 5% of the audience is buying, why am I putting resources into creating that material?

            The answer to me is: you wouldn’t. So for my money, I realize that if GW goes the route of free rules that cool things like the narrative, the art, and everything else I love about the army books would be flushed because there’s no real financial incentive for the company to continue creating that.

            They aren’t going to go bankrupt… but the stuff I love about the hobby would likely be diminished or removed altogether. I already lost the gaming aspect of GW games to the board game / CCG game design direction that GW and their new crop of developers 20 years younger than I am push for. Remove the art and narrative and last vestiges of why I care anymore and …well that would be it.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I completely believe your analysis, but compare that to model sales, and I guarantee they would simply dwarf those numbers. On top of that books, artwork, rules, editing, etc. all cost significantly more than model development. I’m not saying that books don’t generate profit for them. Heck, I’m not even saying they wouldn’t still release books, with special scenarios and rules for narrative/competitive play. I’m just saying that having the core rules and codexes is just antiquated, and honestly nets them very little.

            I know some people who used to work high up at GW and now work high up at other game companies, and model sales make up the majority of their profits. Heck, I’d argue that the side games they’ve been doing for the past couple years make way more than the books they’ve sold.

            I mean in the end you’re right, neither of us have the profit sheets, but I think you’re making some rather large assumptions as far as book profits go. Arguably they could reduce the number of artists, writers, editors, printers, etc. and actually make more money.

          • We would need to see the revenue sheets from book sales to really have an understanding on if “going free” would be viable in terms of how much revenue they’d be losing.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, totally agree. I’m sure it would end up costing them something at least, purely by the numbers. In which case they’d likely never do it. Again, whether it was successful would also depend on how many players were now attracted to the game because of free rules (something I’ve heard many times from other systems as reasons for starting to play).

          • NNextremNN

            I almost convinced a colleague to try the game with a battleforce box. But I was honest and explained him how much rules costs. Guess what he didn’t bought anything from GW.

          • I’m sure that there are a lot of people that won’t play without free rules. I am definitely not arguing that. But a lot of people that I know that won’t play without free rules also won’t pay full price for models either and will either proxy cheap knock offs or go the ebay route anyway.

          • NNextremNN

            I don’t think their paid rules are that important for their survival free rules would even give them higher model sales. And many would still buy books with lore just for the lore.

          • I think AOS showed how much a failure is to rely on books selling lore for lore. Practically nobody touched AOS books at all (and some even complained there was no lore even though there was) until there were rules in the books.

          • Marco Marantz

            GWs money focus is more pronounced now because they went public. I dont deny that they gouged people back in the day. I dont believe they had to charge what they did because of production. I was paying a middle man back then because there was no GW store around but what really pi$$ed me off was when a GW store did open up they were no cheaper. If i wanted to order online – no cheaper.

            GW basically got in first and cornered the market. Ive lot count of the number of other sci-fi games that sought to challenge 40K but people had already spent considerable sums on their models and were reluctant to change. GWs products (miniatures) were generally better than their competitors but not really the rules – totally agree with you about the rules.

            Gamers have been cheapskates because the older gamers started as kids or students and this age group is who 40K is targeted at now (8th ed was designed to be understood by an 8 year old). They need to grow the game but kids dont have money.

            You must have an impressive collection and if so, there is little more GW can get from you; but if you dont have the ability to run anything from a faction then this is how GW gets you. They change the rules to make under-utilized units viable so people go and buy them. This was a hallmark of 7th ed and formations. GW even does this as a faction scale…how many people rushed out this edition and bought IG or tyranid armies? I played with a FoTMer and he was constantly switching to the latest greatest faction.

  • tylran

    I think there are two sides to this.

    On one hand it’s annoying to carry three books, possibly a FAQ and datacards with you to most games. That’s a lot of paper/worry about your smart device’s battery life.

    On the other hand I love the fact that GW does stuff like point amendments and additional rules to existing publications. I mean, remember before when your Codex came out and it was really bad/OP, and you just had to shrug your shoulders and think “this is what I have to deal with for the next 3-10 years”.

    Personally, I prefer the GW line, although I do hope that they have some form of plan for Chapter Approved publications. Let’s say 8th Edition runs for four more years. That means we get something like six or seven more Chapter Approved books. That’s a library. I hope they make some sort of compilation book out of those, or at least of the game rules. I can accept looking for x or y Chapter Approved book for Apocalypse rules or some specific campaign rules, but I’m not happy if I need 4-5 Chapter Approved books to run a normal game smoothly.

  • Admiral Raptor

    This is why GW needs to move away from printed rules. A living rule set like 8th needs to be digital so that any changes don’t necessitate yet more books. GW needs a 40k app where you can download a codex / rule book that automatically receives rules updates.

    • memitchell

      Yeah, NOTHING is more fun that your opponent pulling out a phone during a game. Ooops, gotta read those new texts. Oops, gotta repley. Oops, gotta reply to the new reply. Oh, check instagram…Except no one apologized or feels the least remorse when making others wait while they read World changing texts.

      • Vekhr

        HOW is it different than reading through 20 books? I rather let my opponent google his question than see how regular game changes into reading night;P

      • NNextremNN

        Hmm maybe speak with him and tell him to not check his messages? Maybe trust people to actually want to play the game?

        Also how is this worse then: “I know there was an FAQ for this I just have to find it. Ok maybe it was in the CA. Ohh wait that was in the index. Can anyone borrow me one, I forgot mine?

  • Sorien

    I don’t have a problem with any of this.

  • My solution for myself is that I won’t play public events or public games. I only play private games by invite with people I know aren’t out to destroy the game or break the game.

    The people I play with are reasonable and we can houserule to fill in gaps and holes without someone losing their **** and flipping tables.

  • m3g4tr0n

    The way I see it, orks need a huge boost. Humongous. I’ve noticed during 8th edition that ork players tend to be much more handsome, smarter, etc. They really deserve a significant boost to reflect this in-game.

    • dave long island

      You see things so clearly.

      • m3g4tr0n

        I know! It’s both a blessing and a curse.

  • bad mood

    I’d like to use this opportunity to whine about being a DKoK player. Technically I need the IA: Index AM because of the basic army list. This has an FAQ (1.1) that doesn’t even exist according to Forgeworld and needs units from Index: Imperium 2 to function. This one also has an FAQ, though luckily the DKoK relevant units are rather untouched. Even if those units have updated rules in the AM codex, RAW means I still can only use the Index datasheets. On top I need the codex AM because of the basic rules for Strategems, Relics etc. And the corresponding FAQ just to make sure. Though nothing really touches so far – luckily. And on top of that, there is Chapter Approved, though luckily that only changes pointcosts for me, so it becomes irrelevant as long as my opponent doesn’t disaprove my list. And to top the entire build up isn’t even consistent, Mars Alpha tanks still have the RAW old suicidal emergency plasma vents. So yes, 4 books, 3 FAQs and DKoK are still so unloved by main GW, they aren’t even mentioned in the Codex. Whine out

  • Marco Marantz

    the silly thing is all the codexes released thus far were already written at the time 8th ed dropped yet the corrections and points adjustments included in FAQs and CA were not made.

  • Orangecoke

    Out of curiousity, how do folks incorporate points or rules changes into their codex books? Sticky labels? Scribble them out and write new info in pen? I’m genuinely curious.

    • Pimpcron

      I used to be so anti-writing in your codex, but now I just do it. They are worthless once a new one comes out anyway.

      • Orangecoke


  • Nosebleed

    Have the positivity train derailed already? Are we now allowed to suggest improvements without being labelled anti-GW?

    On a more serious note, GW should take notes from Privateer Press. PP’s War Room App isn’t perfect, but it really helps players in keeping up with the latest rules.

  • memitchell

    FOUR FAQ changes to Conscripts. That’s a little too much responsiveness. I really like the New Necromunda. But, it is rife with typos. There are three places in the rules to construct a gang (counting the pre-made character cards), and they are all three different, and have inconsistent point values. It needs a serious FAQ, but not a plethora of FAQ’s. The people playing the game are not all veterans of 40K V8 FAQ mania. Not good for the game, or rounding up players for a campaign. FAQ’s are not a panacea. Ill thought out FAQ’s are worse than no FAQ’s.

  • EnTyme

    The indices are designed for players using old or limited release models which no longer have rules in the codices. It’s a courtesy to the player so their models aren’t obsolete. Using that model is your choice. If you are using multiple codices, it’s likely because you’re mixing armies. If you are using a Forge World book, it’s because you chose to use a Forge World unit. You are CHOOSING to require multiple rules sources in any of these cases. That’s fine. You’re exercising the options available to you.

    My army requires an index and the core rulebook, and maybe Chapter Approved if we’re using the missions in that book. If I need to look up an FAQ ruling or errata, they’re easily found online, or can be printed off for easy reference. The complaint of needing multiple rules sources feels either self-inflicted, or like people are just looking for a reason to complain.

    • I’m running Deathguard. I just need Deathguard book for my army. You’re right in that people complaining about multiple books are also choosing to run soup lists that require multiple lists.

      • Pimpcron

        No, the scenario that just played out with me this week was Dark Eldar stuff, they’ve FAQ’d multiple things and I had read it, but forgot and then had to be reminded midgame which messed me up. I admit, it’s partially my fault, but it started to irritate me that what was so simple is now convoluted, not the point of breaking, but still enough to irritate. So no soup here Auticus.

        • Fair enough master pimp. Fair enough.

        • David Serrano Jr

          When was 40k so simple? And when was it as simple as it currently is, even with the FAQs?

          • Pimpcron

            I agree, and said that it is still better than other editions, just don’t want them to make it into other editions with too much clutter.

      • EnTyme

        I run Necrons, so unless they for some reason decide not to include some of our models in the codex, I would imagine I’ll just need to swap the index for the codex when it releases (hopefully January or February based on our lack of points adjustments in CA).

    • NNextremNN

      So your army requires “just” 3 books. If anything goes well anything in your army will be in the codex and you can completly replace the index with the codex.

      And you are totally fine with 3 books with lots of stuff you don’t need for your game? Having to write corrections into your books? And printing out new FAQs every couple months? You’re okay with your opponent searching online for the latests FAQ? with maybe a horrible connection and taking several minutes for it to download and then to look for the entry?

      You don’t see “any” room for improvement here?

  • Sun spear

    Yeah it’s so terrible.
    I told you so.
    GW has let us down again.
    This is the vocal minority that frequent sites like this and have nothing better to do than whine. GW has revamped the game, a game with 20+ factions. They have already released their FAQ and chapter approved update schedule going forward. You don’t have to wait years for your crappy codex until it is updated, all the while nothing and I mean nothing comes out of Nottingham. If it’s really that bad, quit. Play something else. Play another game that is perfect in everyway, that doesn’t need something tweaked. That no one complains about.
    I have played since 2nd edition, I sat out the last couple. GW is a business, they make very nice miniatures, that cost money. You know this going in. Don’t whine about it. If carrying around a codex and maybe, for a select few, an index or a chapter approved book that you will eventually memorize is too hard for you go to the gym so you can build up the needed muscle so you will have the physical ability to do it.
    This edition, and GW as a whole, have made the game so much better than it used to be. Who cares about this small stuff? Go play a game with a friend or a like-minded person who enjoys it as much as you do. Have fun.

  • Spade McTrowel

    Still has less rules football… either version.

  • marxlives

    They should just do what other companies are doing in the digital age. Let the states for units be free, provide a release version number to each unit, and just digital update the units with each FAQ. Do the same for the rulebooks, release the full rulebooks for free as digital and then you can just directly update the text before converting back to pdf. If potentially new players didn’t feel like they’d have to purchase a library of books to play this would bring even more new players into the game. I held back on jumping back into 40k with 8th because I wanted to see if I would have to go on a book chase or not in order to stay relavent. Owning Dark Eldar made me more cautious.

    I don’t really care if a game uses a FoC or not. I mean for O.G.R.E. the asymmetric mechanic is stressed so much that if you are NOT the OGRE player than you build your force around the board terrain rather than both opponents walking in blind. Whatever is used to balance the game is fine, I just want to make sure that whatever force I play there is more than one way to build to be competitive within the faction.

    Basically, I hope GW finds a way to calm down the codex chase so I can spend more money one models and less on rules.

  • I’m going to be curious to watch this discussion going forward…I’ll admit I hope 8th’s popularity sours and we get a 9th ed, but that may be unrealistic of me. I’ve disliked every part of 8th from the start

  • James Regan

    We’ve always had the codex, rule book and FAQs for each, and people have been complaining for decades about balance not being adjusted properly between codices. More frequent points rebalancing (something you never have to look up in a time sensitive format, as you make your army list before you show up) and a yearly set of adjustments to wonky main rules are good. How long could we all put up with the griping about smite spam if it was definitely going to be at least 4 years before it changed, because that was the old system. Malefic lords would just be silly cheap FOREVER, given they’re an imperial armour entry, and imperial armour books aren’t updated like codices (and some codices go almost 10 years between releases anyway, so even in a codex, they’d effectively never have been fixed)

  • Pimpcron

    Fair enough. I agree with you. I’m just worried it will get out of hand which it did in 7th. They need to get stuff right before they publish it.

    • Bootneck

      Have you ever thought – “As a business first and hobby second why would they want to create a perfect game?”

      There would be no need for 9th and 10th editions etc

      All they have to do is get most things right and that will be enough to retain players and sell product – whilst leaving enough flaws to move onto a NEW and improved edition.

      Cynical I know – but braw dats a true fact right there.

      • Pimpcron

        Yeah, I’ve thought about that. But a better game would sell itself, and there are tons of new ways to make money other than new editions. I know it works the way you describe in the video game industry, and I’ve often thought that about yearly games like Madden where they would take out something good and add something new, versus just keep the good parts. Then they’d put the good stuff back in a year or so later.

  • Rob brown

    The book carrying issue seems to be wildly exaggerated. I’m playing one of the 10 Codex armies so I bring that Codex, and the fold out card rule pages (or a print out from t’internet)

    I’m only bringing the index if I’m using out of date minis which are far and few between, or trying to get an advantage by relying on a name change (in which case I have no sympathy) or using a non-Codex army (in which case you don’t need the first book)

    If I’m bringing allies then I need another book, but that has always been the case.

    Write out the new points chart and insert it into into your Codex – or photocopy or screenshot. Chapter approved amended a tiny number of things – which to be honest aren’t hard to remember.

    Maybe the main rulebook for the missions of the host doesn’t have one or if we’re playing Chapter approved missions then that one.

    Maybe some perspective is in order!

    • Pimpcron

      All of that is true, and good ideas. But what other game is all of that needed to play? My point is, they should do a better job getting it right the first time. Or maybe getting it completely right is too much to ask, but a much better job could be done.