40K Op-Ed: A 6 Should Always Hit

No matter what modifiers you suffer, everyone should always have a chance to hit.

Dice roll modifiers seem like a pretty basic and good idea at first glance. It’s a simple way to significantly improve or hurt a unit’s chances of accomplishing something. Something as simple as a +1 or -1 can really swing the amount of damage a unit can put out. Now despite the fact that modifiers can get you down to needing 1+ or 0+ to succeed (a unit with a 2+ save in cover for instance) GW has pretty much always kept (in 40K) the rule stating a natural roll of a 1 fails – for many editions.  No matter what modifiers you might have when that lone pip rolls to the top you know you’ve failed. The same however is not always true of succeeding. When looking for success, for some reason, a natural six is not always a success. Lets look at why this is a problem.

Getting A Minus Is Getting Easier

As more and more Codexes come out its easier and easier to get minus to hit modifiers on your target. A number of armies have army-wide rules that give enemies -1 to hit them at range. Other units, like Eldar Rangers, have a natrual -1 to hit; sometimes always, sometimes in cover. The ability to combine these really takes things over the top. Alaitoc Rangers get a -2 to hit them, which with the addition of lighting fast reflexes goes to a -3. A large unit of Plaguebearers with Miasma of Pestilence also get a -2 to hit. As more army books come out there will only be more options for getting these minuses.

Units Should Always Have A Chance  To Do Something

That much Dakka has got to be able to hit something. 

When you start piling all these abilities on you start running into situations where a unit can’t hit its target at all. Now this tends to affect lower BS armies like Ork,s T’au, Astra Militarum, the most. Most Ork units taking a -2 need 7s to hit and so simply cannot do it. A number of T’au and AM units are in the same boat, and might take a -1 for moving as well and not be able to hit. A unit with a -3 is immune to most of the shooting for all three of these armies.

While this can be a devastating “tactic” it’s not really fun. There are few things as annoying and unfun as having a unit that just can’t do anything at all. This is doubly true since Lighting Fast Reflexes is used after you pick a target. You may well end up with a unit picking a target and then finding out it can’t hit them at all. Fun! It also leads to some situations that don’t make sense. Overwatch is supposed to be a hard environment to hit the enemy in, but you can now run in to situations where the enemy is actually easier to hit in overwatch shooting than non-overwatch shooting.

It’s Not Just Shooting

This problem doesn’t just effect shooting either. Some units take the negative modifiers in close combat also. Plaguebearers with Miasma of Pestilence are -2 to hit in combat also. So are Eldar Autarchs with the Shimmerplume and LFR. That means for instance that the major of T’au units simply cannot hit these units in close combat. Like have 0 chance to hit them. In fact T’au Firewarriors have a better chance of hurting a Warlord Titan in close combat, or Guilliman himself, then they do of hurting that unit of Plaguebearers. Now that makes sense!

An Easy Fix

 

These kids would be so good at 40K

Of course fixing this is pretty easy. All you would have to do is just add a rule saving a natural roll of a 6 always hits. It seems like this would be a pretty fair addition to the game. Units that are hard to shoot now would still be so. Units that are bad at shooting would not suddenly get good. All it would allow is for every unit to at least have a chance to do something. Overall I think this would be an easy and fair fix.

What do you think, should units always hit on a natural 6 or is it OK for units to not have a chance to hit at all? Let us know down in the comments! 

  • el_tigre

    Counterpoint: No.

    • orionburn III

      That was a very well reasoned and well thought out answer.
      😛

      • eMtoN

        It’s the only response necessary. A 6 should not always hit. Period, end of line, nothing more to say.

        • orionburn III
        • Lebowski1111111111

          great analysis.

        • Nyyppä

          So, the game, in your opinion, should be worse. Ok. Cool.

          • eMtoN

            Do you not understand that the idea that 6s always hit means horde armies become the *only* way to win? Non horde armies already have a tough time, this would make them impossible.

            Worse, it’s a major solution for a minor problem. Yes, rangers can get -3. So you take something that can take them out in CC. In other words adjust your army, not change the rules in a way that destroys everything else.

    • Steven Hyche

      They will most likely remove a few of the ways to get -1 to hit so its a mute point. They have already started actually.

      • bobrunnicles

        It may be something of a moot point, but a mute point would be one stated by someone with no voice at all 😉

      • Lebowski1111111111

        for somebody who further down insults somebody else by invalidating their opinion if they have not won a major GT, you would think you would spell ‘Moot” correctly.

        • Steven Hyche

          I wasnt insulting him due to not winning a major. He opened that can of worms not I. You shouldnt brag about how good you are and how undefeated you are to weaken another persons point without actually having a real competative record

      • Lux

        Where? The Daemons codex took it away from the Changeling…and gave a new way to add -1 to hit for Nurgle. That actually made the problem worse.

        • Steven Hyche

          How is a spell that has been available to all other nurgle armies worse than an aura thats always on?

          • Lux

            Nurgle already has several ways to add -1 to hit, Tzeentch only had the one and it’s a unique and very squishy Character.

          • Nyyppä

            Several….? Exactly how many?

  • Iain ‘Casper’ Davies

    The problem is that the die you’re playing with only has 6 sides. If it had 10, yeah sure… or even 8. But with 6 sides there’s always a fairly decent chance you’ll hit. On the other hand, could play you always hit on 6 and any other modifiers carry over to to wound or armour save…

    • Sir Postalot

      9th should be played with d20’s ; )

      • ZeeLobby

        D100s!

        • orionburn III

          With every faction’s emblem somewhere on the die so that it takes 6 1/2 hours to determine to-hit rolls.

          • Sir Postalot

            Na just sell us color coded numbers on the dice for example marine dice 1-4 Red 5 orange 6 light green 7-20 dark green green

          • orionburn III

            Oh, sure, for us color blind people it will up it to 12 1/2 hours…lol

          • ZeeLobby

            XD

          • Bigdadi99

            Darnit Orion, you and your logical thinking.

          • Muninwing

            could do white, red, blue, black…

      • M V

        I’d like to play with D10. I’ve felt for years it would allow the proper variation for a miniature game of this scale.

        • ZeeLobby

          It’d definitely help.

          • memitchell

            Rolling 30 D10’s might take a while, and 5 people to pick up 15 off the floor each time.

          • ZeeLobby

            I don’t really see how it’d be any different than rolling 30 D6s and having to pick those up off the floor. Unless your assuming that determining face value of one over the other takes longer? I honestly think D10s are easier to read without the pips and just straight numeric values.

        • Vepr

          I agree, it would also open up the chance to use percentile if they wanted to get a bit more finite for any reason.

    • zeno666

      I think this is one of the main problems with the game.
      D10’s would make for a more interesting interesting range.

    • LankTank

      Just bring in thethe impossible shot rules from necromunda. 1st you need to roll a 6 then another succesful hit based on your unaltered bs/ws

  • quaade

    Orcs mathematically have more shooting than anyone else and the worst BS in the game

    Back in 7th where Lootas hit on a six when they moved. people freely moved them as 5+ to 6 is a small loss. There is my counterargument. My final statement to that is: no.

    • MarcoT

      From 5 to 6 is halving your output. Not a small loss. It’s like going from 3+ to 5+ to hit.

      Orks roll more dice though so it may feel less important, but it still hurts a lot.

      • quaade

        No, 3+ to 5+ is effectively losing 1/3 of your hit chance. Going from 5+ to 6+ sound like a lot when you do %, in reality you lose 1/6 hit chance. Where it really makes a difference is if you allready hit on 6 and someone slaps a further – 1 on you. In which case they use CP or a psychic power.

        • memitchell

          2/6 x 1/2 = 1/6

          It really is halving your output.

        • Scott Staten

          On average:
          3+ hits 4 of 6 times
          5+ hits 2 out of 6 times

          Thus going from 3+ to 5+, on average, reduces your number of hits by 50%

        • MarcoT

          What do you mean, no? If I have 30 shots and I get either 10 (5+) or 5 hits (6+), that half my output. If I have 30 shots and I get either 20 (3+) or 10 (5+), that’s again half the output. What I said is correct.
          A 1/6 hit chance loss doesn’t mean much in isolation. If you lose a single loaf of bread doesn’t mean a thing without context. It matters if that’s the only food you’d have for the week, or if you’re a bakery with 50 other loafs.

    • Inian

      For me they mostly moved when they were forced to fire snap shots anyway, e.g. in case they rallied or wanted to fire on a flyer.

    • Sir Postalot

      Going from 5’s to 6’s halves your shooting output. This is huge. And going from 6’s to 7’s for is even worse it just invalidates all points spend on that shooting weapon completely. .

      • M V

        Agreed

        • quaade

          You make it sound like everyone can do, while I think that only four arnmes, so far, can do it. Stop effectively saying that the sky is falling and look at this calmly, as should the author of this op-ed.

      • quaade

        That teases out CP though and only one gimmick army can abuse that mechanic.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      Stop playing against ppl whit bad mathskills. Moveing whit ork heavy weapons is a really bad idea

      • quaade

        Depends on the situation, which is the difference between tactic and strategy.

        If the orcs have no LoF, then moving them is a fantastic idea.

        • Koen Diepen Van

          You don´t say

          • quaade

            Since the reply was obviously against, none of this was considered.

            So cut the snark.

  • marlowc

    I prefer the Improbable Shot rule from the new Necromunda :
    If the to hit roll would be 7 or higher, roll a D6. If 6 is rolled, roll again using the shooter’s unmodified BS to see if a hit is scored.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah. This works. Is heading back towards the reroll your rerolls after rerolling system, but it’s better than just nullifying.

      • Severius_Tolluck

        Well would say this is more a confirm your hit / crit. But yes too many stratagems give re rolls.

        • ZeeLobby

          It was honestly one of the things that slowed 6th/7th down the most, either through twin-linking or psychic rerolls. It’s sad to see it still be present.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Yeah I was glad to just see straight to roll weapons rather then so many twin linked systems in the new edition, but too many things allow re rolls.

          • ZeeLobby

            Honestly a limitation of the D6 Imo. There’s only so many ways you can influence it’s outcome in order to give it a range truly larger than 1-6, and the sheer range of weapons and stat values benefit from a larger range. Not sure how you solve that, short of giving targets a defense value and doing stat comparisons, but GW wants to move away from math (and it seems to be what their consumers want as well).

    • eMtoN

      Enough with the rerolls already.

      • memitchell

        It’s not a re-roll. It’s a more-roll. Then, you can start with the re-rolls.

  • defensive

    Sure it can be a pain, but the times when you can’t just find another target to shoot at are rare.

    Perhaps there should be some sort of rule like “Careful Aim” or something, where you halve your number of shots from a squad, but you gain +1 to hit.
    Just spitballing.

    • M V

      Yeah, good idea. Or giving up your movement to get “Careful Aim”.

    • euansmith

      Or, for less disciplined factions, “Mad Minute”/”Let ’em ‘ave it!”/”Hose them down!”, +1 to hit, but all die rolls of 1 score a Mortal Wound on the attacking unit.

  • pil kalai

    Orkz don t need to Shoot in 8th.

    • David Pitre

      You’re right, they should delete half of the units from the index.

      • ZeeLobby

        Mmm. Would make room for more Primaris…

        • euansmith

          Primorkiz?! Ain’t dey Nobz?

          • ZeeLobby

            Psh. They aren’t gonna sell more orks. Obviously this would be more of a ork-friendly Primaris space marine. That way you can talk about orks without having to own/use them.

          • euansmith

            I’d love for GW to bring out a box of Blood Axes that have regimented kit and both the Ork and Imperium Key Words.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      Also they can’t Build an amry like that and you lose a lot of games just because of the rules of the army you are up against.

  • Sir Postalot

    The other fix would be to just make all ork shooting weapons free or next to free 😛

    • Lux

      …which would make lists that already focus on CC with those armies (which you should be doing anyway) overpowered

      • Reven

        Go forth punch T’au! The enemy can’t beat what they don’t expect!

        • Lux

          Tons of flamer Crisis Suits and BS2 Commanders (which actually works pretty well)

          • Reven

            lol I know, but punch T’au are funnier, My brother’s favorite unit was Iridium Battlesuit with Onager gauntlet. We even added a wolf pelt after it defeated a small unit of thunderwolves by itself.

            Most of these minus 1’s haven’t effected me personally all that much, I play sisters and just like in 7th I’ve closed the gap in Immolators and focused on shooting within 12in anyways. The immolation flamers are amazing now and with rapid fire stormbolters and firing both profiles of a combi-weapon I’ve never had so much firepower within my optimal range before.

  • Elliott Cross

    Could be useful as it is true if you fire that much u would hit with something. But would need the add on if you have a -1 to hit you can no longer get exploding 6 (e.g. tesla gun effects).

  • Huntard

    If 6s can always wound, and 6s can always hit then it only exacerbates the issue currently in 8th ed 40k where extremely cheap units with 24″ shooting punch are so much more points efficient than other options available.

    • Lebowski1111111111

      like what? conscripts are one of if not the worst units in the entire game now, watch upcoming tournament results for proof. Flat out guard are turning into a weak faction with every book that is released and every FAQ they put out.

      What factions with cheap troops are dominating?

  • Harry_Jamieson

    I honestly thought 6’s always hit and 1’s always miss. If that’s not already the rule it damn well should be.

    • NeinNeinNein

      Well, it’s pretty obvious that you don’t play much at all so why would it bother you either way? Also, not, it shouldn’t.

  • Luca Lacchini

    Natural 6 always hitting would make horde style armies even more powerful.
    And it should be logical to have a natural 1 always missing, invalidating a whole slew of modifiers given by characters, stratagems, and whatnots. Nerdrage inbound.

    So “natural highest/lowest always doing that”, is a bad idea, with a d6. d10 would make sense.

    Better to limit those modifiers (honestly -1 is huge, -2 is terminal, -3 is blatantly unbalanced), and have re-rolls for natural 6. Maybe more difficult re-rolls, but whatever.
    But just a -1 is something terrifying already, given how overcharged plasma explodes easier, mortal wounds effect on 6s just don’t work anylonger, etc.

    • Callum Rae

      Fully agree, stopping hit modifiers from stacking seems the easiest fix.

      • M V

        Yes, could work. At max -2. Or just -1?

        • Luca Lacchini

          -2 should suffice. Ability, situation and stratagem could do various combos to get that capped modifier.
          -3 is full half of the dice value, and it’s one of those cases in which the total modifier becomes more impacting than the dice roll itself.

          • zeno666

            I’m ok with -3, as long as there is a limit to that last -1.
            Such as the eldar thing, where if you get within 12″ you remove that modifier

    • Lux

      “Natural 6 always hitting would make horde style armies even more powerful.”

      It would only affect the game *at all* if you stacked so many -1 to hit modifiers you were basically breaking the game anyway. It would however be a buff to Ork and Renegade Heavy and Assault shooting when going against armies with modifier abilities, if a minor one.

  • kero

    no.

    I dont want the cheapest unit in the game whatever they are to become the powerhouse of the meta again and start killing titans

    • Drpx

      Too late.

    • Nyyppä

      Ok, so, imagine this (you don’t have to, you may just experience it first hand when ever you want to): In a game you can not hurt anything with anything and all your games are like that.

      That’s what you get with not being able to hit and wound anything with anything.

  • zeno666

    To make hordes and spam even better?
    No thank you.

    • Kabal1te

      So instead spam units you can stack to a -3 to hit so that hoards can’t touch you (plus tau and a few other not horde armies that hit on 4+). Much better to have someone’s army that can’t hurt yours than have to think about having to play better with your army. I mean if you want a game where everyone has to be a space marine to do anything there is already 30k. For 40k there are too many 4+ or worse shooting and/or melee armies to have this many ways to stack negative to hit modifiers.

      • zeno666

        Well, which units can get to -3 in the first place?
        Sure, Alaitoc Eldar (hey wait a sec, is this another Eldar hate article?) Rangers can get to -3 with the Conceal spell or that stradegem.
        I would really like for my opponent to spam rangers…

        • Liam Worswick

          Shadow spectres also have an innate -1 to be hit, and their guns hit like a truck.

        • Lux

          Nurgle/Chaos can do it.various ways (warlord trait, scabes, miasma, plaguebearers, boon, hell talon, alpha legion trait). Not all of these are reliable or can overlap, but it’s pretty damn doable for an army that’s supposed to be slow and already has FNP everywhere.

          • zeno666

            With a lot of FNP, it does sound a bit much.
            But I guess its just GW’s classic “new models” syndrome…

    • Nyyppä

      Deathstars were such a joy. Let’s do that again. That’s your other option. Just saying.

  • No. I don’t really think a 6 should always hit. I have units in my index that hit on a 4+. Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz and Dakka Jets just to name a few. I think for Orks it would be good to be able to pay to upgrade some units to BS4+ . And I’d rather buy it for some units rather than be taxed with the extra cost on every unit.
    -2 to shooting is a thing but it’s not something every army can bring to the table so I don’t really care about it. It wont save anything from my mobs hitting on a 2+ in close combat. Ork shooting is mostly meant to soften up targets prior to an assault. It just the nature of the beast, we don’t have any one tool options. And out best shooting units are still grots.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      I disagree. The current rules just destroy the option to make a ork shooting army. The -1 to hit that most armies have just eliminates that option.

      • My shooting army is full of Mek guns, Big guns and burna boys, flash gitz, lootas, dakka Jet ect.-1 to hit isn’t that big of a deal for me.
        What are you fielding in your shooty list?

        • Koen Diepen Van

          Lootas are fun until you play vs a shooting list that has -1 to hit at range and end up just putting models back in te case. Burna boys not included the modifier just makes every other army build than shooting more effective.(as orks) Not that a game can’t be fun whit shooting orks mind you but from a pure competative standpoitns it’s a dead end. Sure you might win a fair few games but it just takes to little to ruing the game plan.

          • I can tell we play very differently. I am not overly thrilled with lootas but don’t bring more than 5 or 6 of them in a mob either. there’s not really much point to it so far this edition. Burna boys have been solid for me, 2 mobs of 5 in a single war trukk. for example. But I tend to bring 3 or 4 mobs like that in trukks. They kill enemy characters usually. As far as the -1 to hit. that why I bring units that normally hit on a 4+. And in several cases once I get close enough those negative modifiers go away. Not everything will be impossible to hit anyway. My playstyle is probable not suited to tournament play.
            I focus on scoring objectives and creating bad decisions for the other player. Hell I regularly field 50 to 60 gretchen and they put in work for me. If there is some light/squishy/low model count unit just a little too far on it’s own I’ll port 30 grot in range for easy shooting. This has worked well enough for a 90 point investment.
            I would say competitive play creates the dead ends. I don’t win every game but I’m doing well enough.

      • Jason Fry

        It’s definitely not most armies

        • Koen Diepen Van

          Depends on how you define army I guess. But chaos en emperium can both create armies whit lot´s of those units in there.

  • orionburn III

    On one hand I do like the idea of always hitting on 6s. If a 1 is always considered a fail then there is an argument to be made that there’s always a chance to hit something. However, if you start thinking of a marine sprinting across a battlefield while taking a pop-shot with a lascannon at a Ghostkeel half way across the table the odds need to be pretty high for that shot to hit, marine or not.

  • Simon Chatterley

    40k used to have the “our weapons are useless” rule which was there for those moments when you really couldn’t do a thing to what had charged you. Since now no weapon is truly useless those masses of firepower attacks that would have been useless (shotta boyz vs any tank usually for example) they now have the capability to chip wounds off.

    If a 6 always hits then the lists that can pour massed firepower at you will need a balance point of some kind.

    I see the point and if you play said Dakka lists I’m sure you really want to see it but I’m not convinced it is the way forward.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Really no. As others have noted already, allowing 6s to always hit would make horde armies even better than they can be now. Part of 8th design philosophy around modifiers, and synergies is all part of the game. To allow 6’s to always hit again would require the fundamentals of how the mechanics of 40K work.

    Sure the as codices are being published various negative modifiers are become more prevalent. Yet I would not these sorts of -3/4 combinations take up CP to pull off (which are endless) and will typically only impact one enemy units shoot (of course there are exceptions).

    As for armies that are already have an average low BS to start with, then I would not be shocked, if not expect that, when their codices are published they will have various abilities/stratagems what give them bonuses to hit – heck it will I can see T’au having access to combination that can grant easy 2s to hit.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      I certainly hope so. Tau is so one trick that the mere exsistance of the -1 to hit in chaos,marine, mechanicum and eldar lists make almost there whole rooster ineffective for tournament play. The rules of other armies literly dictate what works and doesn´t work for tau lists.

    • Steven Hyche

      No they dont require cp to pull off on many units.

      Shadow specters- -1 to hit natural conceal + aliatoc =-3

      Rangers

      Wave serpents with vector engines

      All jets

      Characters with plume

      A -2 is very hard to deal with but when so many units have a natural -2 and just need a pychic power to bring it to a 3 its hard to pick targets since once you pick an non optimal target you then have the risk of them using the stratagem to give that unit a negative 1 to hit.

      • Jason Fry

        In reality this is mostly an eldar problem and anyone that’s faced Eldar lately knows the codex is the cheats guide to 40k 😂😂

        • Lebowski1111111111

          care to post the tournament results that back this up, or are you just losing to a good player in your meta and think thats the case worldwide?

      • I_am_Alpharius

        So that’s one example out of how many units and combinations in 40K? One example that -3 would apply for a single turn, on a single unit and requires successful casting roll (yes, very likely with Eldar, but they can fail). One example that require a FW unit(s), which are not always allowed at tournaments. As I alluded they will be exceptions; there always are.

        Its hardly rampant in the average game, let alone in the tournament scene. As so often is the case, internet hysteria kicks in.

        • Steven Hyche

          Last GT I attended 3 out of the 5 opponents had these units. Granted its a small sample size but 5 units is a lot of units that have a passive -2. Thats more than all other armies combined with stratagems and spells.

  • Majere613

    I tend to agree with the OP. It’s a pretty weak argument to claim that such a change would make horde-type armies ‘overpowered’- if we take as an example a mob of 30 Shoota Boyz firing 60 shots, on average that’s still only ten S4 hits with no AP from 180-odd points of Ork. Factor in toughness and saves and that’s a pretty pitiful output.

    At the very least, the old rules for rolling 7+ could be reinstated. In earlier editions, you needed to roll 6, then 4+ to ‘roll 7’, 6 then 5+ for 8, and so on. The Shootas in our example would then on average only score 5 hits (assuming they needed 7+) but at least that’s still something.

  • Itrogash

    Didn’t 40k have rule for hitting on 7+? Was that not implemented in 8th?

    • Drpx

      It did, but since 8th is designed for tourneybros and kids, it was left out due to being too complicated for the Sigmar ruleset.

      • Itrogash

        Well, this sucks. It was not the most elegant solution but it was good enough to resolve those kinds of situatons.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. Sigh…

      • Nyyppä

        It’s designed for player agency. I get that people who want invincible units “suffer” now but honestly….they should.

        • Drpx

          What?

          • Nyyppä

            The same people who dislike player agency in 8th are more than likely the same people who cried after deathstars vanished.

          • Drpx

            Being able hit something when you need a 7+ promotes Death Stars?

          • Nyyppä

            Nope. Demanding to have invincible units does that though.

  • Jason Fry

    All this would do is hurt elite armies with better weapon/ballistic skill as they would always feel the full pain of the modifier and as noted previously the armies that can bring the most guns to bear even if they have bad BS will win out and become even more powerful than they already are. Definitely a no from me.

  • JoBane

    Instead of changing the rules, why not trying to adapt and learn new strategy?

    • Koen Diepen Van

      You mean play a other army? How the hell are orks suposed to compensate for -2 to hit? Play massed grots? The problem is not so much the modifyers but that it effects armies diffrently (and in a huge way) -2 to hit will cut bs 2+ by 40% 3+ By 50% 4+by 66% and 5+ by 100%. And it´s not like orks are a effecive shooting army to begin whit, but whit these kind of modifiers it is a none option.

      • JoBane

        Does the orks have a few way to close the gap quickly? Yes. Does rangers are the most powerful unit in the game? Not at all. Does stratagem are an finite method to give a boost in your tactical decision? Yes.

        I admit that ork are in little trouble with the minus 1 to hit. But always hit on 6 for everything in the game is not the solution. Orks should have a rule to help them with that kind of penalty but not the whole game. Eldars and the elite army need something to protect their low numbers of model or low toughness. I have 4 different armie and I haven’t lost a single games in years. Rules like that do not bother me at all because I manged to adapt on the spin, something most player can’t do or won’t try to do. The real proble is the way codex are released. If everyone as their 25 stratagems and army rule at the same time, I think we will see less problem in the game.

        • Koen Diepen Van

          Wow I did not know i was talking to warhammer GOD. I rest my case. (serriusly tough nobody thinks internet bragging is cool) Rules effecting the oppsing models stats are hard to ballance. It’s way better to give models a better save. At least that effects all armies in the same way .

          • JoBane

            Bragging?? Ok man drop it! 2 post and you are already salty about my argument. I simply stated my vision of the game and the way I see it. Wich is not what most people I know do share. And yes in my local meta I don’t lose often. It’s not bragging. I just share my personal experience. Anyway it’s very hard to have a civil discussion on the internet without being attacked, ridiculed or insulted. Have a nice day man!

          • Koen Diepen Van

            Yea who cares about your personal experience in winning. It´s not relevant. Bringing it up is bragging. And that is not civil either. If you don,t like getting called out on that don´t do it.

          • JoBane

            Yeah just like I said before, learn and adapt. Get good with your handicap. Case close. Get a life!

          • Koen Diepen Van

            Dude get of you high horse.

        • Steven Hyche

          What major events have you won?

          • Lebowski1111111111

            is that the rule for posting around here now, must have missed that memo.

          • Steven Hyche

            Perhaps you should read what he said. He is claiming he is right due to “havent lost a game in years”.

            If you are going to claim you know better due to being so good you need to back it up.

  • Kabal1te

    Natural 6s always hit is game breaking because building an army immune to being hit by tau is totally not game breaking. Give tau a -3 to hit both shooting and in melee and what can they do? There are ways to do this, not all the time yet but there are ways to get there for a turn or a phase. Even Mechanicus have units walking around with base -2 to hit. It isn’t that hard achieve. Push it up to -3 with a strategem or something and several armies can’t touch you. Try playing one of those armies and be told you can’t hit anything. What are you going to do. Tell folks they have to build melee tau armies if they want to win? That’s just silly. 6s should always hit. That isn’t game breaking. It’s the exact opposite of game breaking.

  • Garr Davies

    As previous posters have mentioned, auto hits with dice such d20 is fine and this does indeed work well for infinity. But auto hits on such a limited system such as d6, no thanks.

  • There should never be a way to make a unit immune to being attacked. Thats just garbage IMO.

  • Advachiel

    Mantic has their own take on this rule which I believe is something like ” any modifiers which would make it worse than 6+ to hit, divide your total number of sixes in half…” Pretty straightforward no?

  • Nyyppä

    Yes. Also everything should wound on 6s. This is because even flashlights kill monsters when you have enough flashlights. It’s not a realism thing either. It’s a ”the game is more interesting for more turns when everything is a threat to everything else. Player agency is good for the game.

  • ZeeLobby

    While more cumbersome it makes alot of sense why other games have moved to D10, 2D6, D20, DCustom, etc. for their systems.

    • orionburn III

      Shhh…don’t give GW the idea to sell us more specialized dice…lol

      • ZeeLobby

        Hehe. I mean if they’re universal symbols I’m fine with it. If it’s like you posted elsewhere and every faction has their own symbols I’d shoot myself :P.

  • OctopusVolcano

    There are really very few units that can achieve the mythical -3 to hit. In fact it’s pretty much only eldar I think. Most units can only get , without spending CP or using psychic powers, a -2 and most of the time thats only outside 12″.

    -1 to hit is pretty powerful, -2 is very strong. In order to get to -3 you spend CP or cast psychic powers. On a single unit. One unit per phase can reach this mythical -3. if you spend CP or succesfully cast a power on a unit then it damn well should be a powerful outcome, otherwise why bother spending those resources?

    If something has a -2 at range and you’re shooting at it, you’re not thinking about what you’re doing. Shoot something else and plan on charging those -2 to hit at range in melee.

  • benn grimm

    Nah and get rid of the always wounding on 6s too, Orks shouldn’t be able to hit Eldar Rangers and grotz shouldn’t be able to wound rhinos, let alone land raiders and titans.

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean hitting should always have a random chance. There no such thing as being unhittable. Especially in war. Now flashlights wounding Titans seems a lot more ridiculous.

      It makes sense that wounding may be impossible. It really was the right original decision.

      • benn grimm

        I think in the far future, with stealth tech or magical flies or whatever it’s quite possible that something could become untargetable. I think it adds a nice dynamic anyway and makes up for the lack of a straight up ‘hide’ option. 7+ etc was fine as far as it went, but sometimes less (dice) is more.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I guess I just figure that weight of fire in any reality = lucky hits, while metal bullet to 8″ armor encased machine god is just never going to do anything. Even with stealth or magic flies, 30 shots have a chance of hitting something. It makes bringing quantity of fire over quality more important, while not being able to wound prioritizes the alternative. It was a good balance. Making either easily achievable gets us to the point where all you need is quantity/quality, thereby reducing choice and diversity in the game.

  • Wyoh

    Nah and get rid of the always wounding on 6s too, Orks shouldn’t be able to hit Eldar Rangers and grotz shouldn’t be able to wound rhinos, let alone land raiders and titans.

    • benn grimm

      Wtf? Post your own comment.

      • Bots. Every once in a while I’ll see one duplicate one of my posts on here.

        • benn grimm

          K, thanks, was a bit weirded out there for a mo.

      • Flag them as spam, it’s the only way to get rid of them

        • benn grimm

          Will do, thanks wasn’t sure if it counted as spam or what tbh.

  • fenrisful2

    I say NO, get rid of 1´s always fail instead. T > Sx2 should also be autofail. This would result in less dice rolled -> faster game.

    If Orks wants to shoot, use grots; if T’au wants to melee, use Kroot.
    This also teaches people not to take a full unit of Orks with all lascannons or similar.
    It also make flamers and grenades useful as they are supposed to.

    • Jason Fry

      I agree, I’m ok with the wound chart, but would like to see T>Sx2 not be able to wound. It means you have to bring the appropriate weapons to deal with all threats.

  • NeinNeinNein

    Yeh.. nah mate.

  • Roman Beattie

    I think that if you need 6’s followed by 4’s for an ‘impossible shot’ that requires a 7 or more to hit could work

  • Badruk

    They could add the following. if your score is 7+ to hit. On a 6 you hit but the difference add extra Save.

    So if a unit need by example 7 to hit, 6 will count has hit, but your save get better, so instead of being 4+ (example) it is now 3+

    Give an advantage somewhere, or add more modifiers to Wound.

  • Every article I read about 8th makes me more glad I don’t play 8th lol. Here’s hoping GW does a 9th edition and goes back to the old ways

    • Steven Hyche

      Why would they do that wheb despite having a few issues it’s
      The most successful edition they have released?

      • Because the game is not fun. Successful now, sure, but 8th came with a brand new space marine line (their best seller) and a new chaos space marine line (among their non-sm best sellers). You can’t really determine whether the sales are due to new models or the game. If, as I expect, people come to turn on 8th just as they did 6th and 7th, then my hope is GW goes back to 3rd ed as the base

        • Steven Hyche

          So you are saying that thry have pushed themselves as a model company not a game company for years and slowly lost players and sales year after year, but once thry abandon that business plan and focus on games they only succeed becaude of the models? How does that make aby sense what so ever? Are you Kerby trolling bols?

          • If you look at the last year of 7th, they were crushing sales records despite the game being “broken” and “unplayable,” so yes, I’m saying that GW’s sales are driven by the quality of models they make and sell and have very little to do with gameplay. Lord knows I haven’t stopped buying death guard models and I’d rather go to the dentist than suffer through another minute of 8th Ed’s inane gameplay

          • Steven Hyche

            No they werent. They had a small increase. Which may look like “crushing” when compared to a slow fall year after year.

            Big difference in small increase and being one of the most improved stocks on the British market tho.

          • 2016- 2017 profits were record setting, 30 million pounds, the next highest year they had was 2012-2013, when they made 20 million pounds. Literally last year was 50% higher than their previous highest profits. But yeah, just a small increase, right?

          • Steven Hyche

            AoS had a huge climb that year due to general hand book

          • They also released Magnus, thousand sons, lord of change, Guilliman, Cawl, Celestine, etc. They made fantastic models, they sold well. The game being “broken” didn’t stop them making massive amounts of money because the game isn’t that important.

          • Steven Hyche

            And it TRIPLED this year compared to last…. they may have had a small come back last year which was largely because of AOS but it was nothing like the increase after 8th drop. They literally tripled since 2016.

          • Yes, and did you see they released two full new lines of space marines? An entirely new model line for their best seller, plus a new model line for one of their other best sellers is a recipe for profits, plain and simple. Also worth noting that the last 6 months of 7th they did 20 million pounds of profit, so it’s only a 50% increase from Jan-June (and considering it went 9.7 million to 20 million to 33 million the growth rate is actually slowing), and go figure Jan-June was when they released a series of models that sold incredibly well. It’s almost like the game wasn’t a factor 🤔

          • Steven Hyche

            so they never released cool models till last year?

          • Are you saying 7th ed increased in quality 100% between the fall-winter of 2016 and spring-summer of 2017? Of course you aren’t, that’d be dumb. I’m saying they released a deluge of amazing models that is unprecedented, and they continued with the primaris and death guard release, thus the amazing sales continuing.

          • Steven Hyche

            What I am saying is I have years of data to support my claim and you have 1 year of data that only supports your claim if you dont mention all of the other things they did that year.

            Games workshop makes good models and that had been true for decades but the stock doesnt show that until last year.

            What you fail to mention is
            1) they started supporting the GAME of AoS

            2) they started to support the GAME of 7th after years of not

            3) they started talking with customers after years of nothing

            4) they advanced the story after decades of nothing

          • Steven Hyche

            Yeah actually I would. They released FAQs for the first time in years, for example.

    • While I prefer the older school of game design and have a hard time with today, partiicularly the obsession with alpha striking and ending the game before it even starts with an emphasis on deckbuilding… it would seem a huge amount of people LOVE the new direction.

      • I hear that a lot, but I heard that a lot when 7th came out too, it took a couple years for the bloom to come off the rose. I just don’t see anything in 8th that deserves the longevity the 3rd ed rules had (essentially 5 editions of rules based on them)

        • Time will tell! I know a lot of people that also loved 7th. (I hated 7th)

          I get s houted down a lot when I complain about the rules so I made a new years resolution to just find other games or deal with it because it seems that the people around me are all super fans and if I want to continue playing with them I have to adapt too.

          Thats just a tangent though lol sorry

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Normal people don’t love alpha striking.

  • Talos2

    It absolutely should be like that. It shouldn’t be possible to render an entire army incapable of hitting anything in the shooting phase as eldar can do to orks. It’s simply an insane way to run a game system that only the power hungry “i only use the stuff that the internet tells me to “ type of player that just ruins the whole thing anyway, could possibly agree with. 8th is definitely not the game I asked for as they liked to call it on release

  • Kabal1te

    I am also going to bet the minute some reliable trick to pull off -4 to hit appears in a codex somewhere that a lot of people will change their opinions.

  • Spade McTrowel

    How about we wait for the Ork Codex to come out before we start making major rule changes.

    • Lux

      Yeah, let’s wait for the problem to fester for 9 months or so before we do something about it

  • stinkoman

    I don’t care. i use Adeptas Sororitas and plenty of fire to purge the heretic, the psyker and the xenos alike. Flamer, combi-flamer, heavy flamers, Double Heavy flamers, immolator flamers, double hand flamers (really wish there was a flaming grenade) and faith. Where the fire fails, S&M nuns with eviscerators whipped into shape, succeed!

    • Lux

      I’ve noticed that the increasing ability of armies to apply these modifiers is making my flamer-heavy Sisters armies better, too. If only they weren’t so damn squishy.

    • IntoTheMoshpit

      Nuns throwing molotov cocktails sounds interesting!

  • LordKrungharr

    AoS has auto hit and wound on 6s and auto fails on 1s, after rerolls but before modifiers. I think that’s a good system.

    But even if 40 k doesn’t ever get that, aeldari can run out of command points pretty quick !

  • Pat H

    They should give Orks a strategem that let’s a unit’s shooting hit on a 4+ regardless of modifiers. Call it Git Findas. Or bring Git Findas back as a unit upgrade.

  • Antoine Henry

    6 should always hit but 6 should not always wound. You can always fire, but you should not be able to “damage” a Titan with a laspistol… The one complaing that 6 should NOT always hit are “eldars” powerplayers probably or “all the peeps” using that “army -1 to hit type”…Or just allow maximum -1 to hit modifier or rerolls of 6 to hit…

  • Xar

    And a 1 should always miss, and never be re-rolled.

  • Defenestratus

    No.

    • zeno666

      I do believe that is the case 😉

    • Lux

      Maybe he played 7th edition

  • Davis Centis

    I’ve responded to this through my new blog! http://recklessassaultgaming.com/index.php?/entry/5-dropping-dice-responds-should-a-6-always-hit/

    But, quick synopsis, I agree that a 6 should always hit. It doesn’t impact many armies, but it will keep armies from not being used due to fear that they just can’t interact AT ALL.

  • Apocryphus

    When an army’s rules create a non-interactive condition for the opponent, presenting little or no counterplay options, it is bad game design. The addition of 6’s always hitting wouldn’t present much of a power increase when you take into consideration the number of armies that would actually benefit from it. As it stands, a -3 modifier against shooting only affects BS 4+ armies, and it’s rare to see that modifier, while the -2 modifier only affects BS 5+ armies. It would more often than not be a corner case rule and would allow the opponent the option to still take risky shots against the enemy. Player agency is important, and the removal of it only creates negative play experiences.

    • zeno666

      Armies that have BS4+ can often go for the “Apply axe to face” route instead.

      • Apocryphus

        At times, yes, but AM and Tau aren’t reknowned for their melee capabilities. It still removes player agency and railroads unit choices when building a list. When a player builds a list around shooting, they expect to be weak against certain things and be very good at shooting. Generally armies that are designed around superior ranged firepower don’t have many quality melee units, and those they bring can be easily prioritized and shot off the table unless they get something that lets them charge turn 1(which kroot might get in the codex).

  • Leviticus Stroud

    Hmm, gotta go with the ‘no’ side on this one.

    Whilst the multiple minuses is an obvious issue for certain armies to deal with, the other side of that is that low BS armies tend to not only have more shots per unit, but more units for the points.
    This should balance out to a similar average number of hits for the points, but often actually gives them more.

    So if we were to now consider those pesky high levels of negative modification- well they are costly in terms of the points for the units that have them, or the command points required. If we were to no say ‘well, they have no effect on that cheap unit, only on the expensive one’ then we have an even bigger issue.

    An Ork with BS2 gets affected by a -1 to hit, but has an assault weapon. Well, why not make an assault move for the additional -1 if the chance to hit doesn’t get any worse?
    Wanted to spend CPs to make your expensive unit really hard to kill? Nope, that unit was already at maximum penalty so your additional evasive manoeuvres mean nothing!

    That 6 always succeeds system has been shown not to work before- it causes enough issues as it is with the S/T checks.

    However, there should be a chance of success.
    So instead of a 6 always hits, how about a 6 followed by a 5+ if you would have required a 7 to hit? You could then have 6 followed by 6 if you needed an 8.
    This would at least be better than the ‘6 always succeeds’ proposal.

  • BroxusMaximus

    I just don’t think this is needed. D6 is already limiting and this just makes it worse. I can’t think of many people at all this would even benefit.