40K Op-Ed: Fixing the Drukhari

The Dark Eldar are almost an invisible army in 8th. Here’s what they need to regain the respect and fear of other factions.

 

First of all, take a look at the Drukhari in Index Xenos 1. These days you only ever seen them as low costed minimum sized units of Kabalite Warriors to fill out TROOPS slots in Ynarri Battalions.  Oh how far they have fallen since they made their dramatic reappearance in the game with their 2010 5th Edition Codex:

With an entirely reimagined and updated line of miniatures – folks could hardly believe their eyes. After all the army had been out of action for 12 years since their original 3rd Edition codex from 1998!

In 8th Edition the army is hampered by overpriced units that die in droves to hard glances, much less average firepower. Faction hallmark units such as Wyches have no effective way to survive to make it into assault, and their vehicles are incredibly easy to destroy, while not being particularly cheap.  All in all it’s an army without a lot of tricks to protect them from an Alpha Strike and once they take a punch – they are out for the count. They struggle to deal with enemy vehicles, especially at range, and their heavy weapons are again quite pricy for how easy they are to take out.

They are pretty fast, but then again, in 8th Edition everything is relatively faster compared to 7th Edition, so their speed isn’t so exotic anymore.

The Power From Pain table is cool in theory, but when your army is crippled by turn 2 – how much does it really matter?

What the Drukhari Need

Faction Rules

I’m sure we will see 6 factions at least, probably 2 Kabals, 2 Wych Cults, and 2 Haemonculi Covens. Who knows if GW will feel generous and toss in something exotic like a Incubi Cult – that would be cool!

I’m sure these will follow along the lines we’ve seen from other armies, borrowing perhaps more from the Craftworlders. In particular the Drukhari need things to keep them alive on turns 1-2 when they are closing with the enemy. Thing like these would be most useful:

  • Minus to be hit either at range, or when moving.
  • Cover bonuses.
  • Bonuses to armor saves, or invulnerables.

Sure it would be nice to get lethality bonuses, but first let’s keep the army alive.

Strategems

I assume we will see the Drukhari borrow heavily from the Craftworld list, and why not. If anything, they should be MORE at home with striking from the webway – it’s kind of THEIR thing after all!  Again the army needs to be able to cheaply keep key elements of their army off the table, ready to strike where needed, and they need it without costing them most of their command points.  While all the clumsy races have to deep strike outside the 9″ making charges risky, the Adeptus Custodes can drop 3″ from you. I could see the Drukhari getting some way of dropping a little closer (say 6″).

I could see the Army being allowed to use the equivalent of BOTH the Cloudstrike and Webway Strike strategems used by the Craftworlders.  The Dark Kin are known for their cunning raids that shatter their foes and leave them reeling as the Kabals strike in force from seemingly out of nowhere. What an army consisting of piratical raiders shouldn’t do is deploy like a Napoleonic force and sit there waiting for their enemy to shell the tar out of them.

Look, they blotted out the sun – THEN attacked!

Environmental Effects – Relics

I classify the Dark Eldar in the “seed the battlefield with fear” camp along with folks like the Night Lords, and arguably Tyranids, Necrons, and Raven Guard (maybe). This an army that should have plenty of ways to heavily modify morale tests, mess with deployment, and even do stuff like force Night Fighting or other environmental effects that benefit them. Go crazy GW design studio!

Fire Sale on Prices

Last but not least – most armies have seen fairly decent point decreases as they moved from Index to Codex, and the Drukhari REALLY need the help.

The Big Picture

Overall a lot of armies in the 40K universe are fairly similar. They have fleets, lots of dudes, huge galaxy spanning supply trains behind them, show up to a place to fight, set up their camps, go to bed, wake up, eat a solid breakfast, do some PT, and THEN go after their foes.  The game’s general rules support that big picture. But the Drukhari aren’t that at all. This is an army that should feel like fighting phantoms. You can’t every get your hands on them because you can’t find them. They strike their targets 99% of the time, and if they ever get caught out in the open are doomed. It’s an army that thrives on generating fear and shock an uses them as well as any other weapon they possess.  The army’s special rules, strategems and relics should reflect that.

~ What do you think GW needs to do to get the Drukhari back to top tables?

  • Ironhalo

    Bring back Duke Sliscus. /thread

    • Jared Swenson

      i want the baron, if only to make hellions more attractive. my favorite DE unit

      • J Mad

        The Baron is very missed for me as well.

      • euansmith

        It seems odd that GW removes such important characters from an army simply because they don’t want to make a mini for the character. They could just say, ” Character X has this wargear and gives these buffs; make your own from the bits in a box of Unit A” or, better still from GW point of view, “Make your own from the bits in Unit A and Unit B”.

        • somewhatdamaged

          Because it enables a 3rd party buisness to then make an actual model for them, which then diverts profits. It’s the same reason all the characters and kits are going monopose now, it’s to cut out the bits sellers.

          • Alastair Meek

            Which is ridiculous, since we still have to buy the basic model. IT’s not changing GW’s profit margin. It would only affect that if GW made bits themselves, and they haven’t really done that for decades.

          • euansmith

            That is a solid point; however, I just think that, GW could box clever and encourage fans to pick up a box or two of minis to do some kitbashing in return for some in-game buffs. I’m encouraged by the Custodes having the ability to make minor characters out of their rank and file minis. It seems, to me, to be a clever use of their resources, while also encouraging some deeper involvement in the hobby side of the game.

          • autonoise

            I really like the custode approach and I hope it is replicated for other new kits. (It’s clinched the deal for me to build a 1000pt vanguard detachment for a reasonable price (£100 list price/£75 from an indie).

        • Muninwing

          it seems more odd to me that so many lists used the Baron… in armies with trueborn.

          and that many of the players who were filled with righteous indignation over having to face Telion in a non-blue-painted army were also not particularly careful to paint their DE in the proper colors for the Kabal they were playing.

          • euansmith

            No, that’s not Telion; it is his fancy pant’s noble brother Count Zaz Telion.

          • rpiazza72

            Right! Zaz is the one who passes on the traditional Drukhari spandex for sensible loose fitting pantaloons!

          • Muninwing

            the recent “DA can only field SCs if they are the original DA and not any successor chapters” ruling is pretty harsh, and in huge contrast with everything the game has been about for decades…

            i really wish there was some form of limiter on SCs, as their auto-take status makes the game somewhat boring and removes immersion. maybe one max per 1500 points? formation conditions that need to be met? anything that could be done smacks of the very complexity being added that 8th was supposed to remove… almost like complicated games being reduced means losing effectiveness…

          • euansmith

            I’m not a big fan of SCs hitting the table, and prefer the generic characters.

          • Kabal1te

            Yea but the generic characters of the dark eldar are underwhelming compared to just about every other factions generic characters, especially now since the index stripped them of the large majority of their wargear options.

          • Muninwing

            that’s important to note then. there’s an imbalance issue there.

            but it doesn’t fix that problem where 4/5 of all DE armies were Baron forces also containing trueborn (huge fluff faux pas). playing against the de facto same list every time becomes less about the game and more about overcoming the tricks you know are coming.

            and that’s boring.

          • Muninwing

            not every UM force will be led by their grandpappy. or even their daddy smurf. nor will Telion lead every group of scouts. nor will…

            when you remember that 40k has historically been decent about space travel taking a long time even with warp jumps, there’s a huge disconnect when every battle happens to include every available sc… like, don’t they have better things to do?

          • Havik110

            @euansmith:disqus I completely agree. I wish they would go back to the old route of giving Massive options to make your lord/captain as custom as possible. (the issue is eventually they all ended up the same).

          • euansmith

            “And you get a Black Mace! And you get a Black Mace! And you get a Black Mace!”

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/90efde9e49520a69881eddc0679148916e2a913d9dd18db051d0eb5dec59d761.jpg

    • Dalinair

      This, we had all those lovely characters and then they just got stripped away in the last codex. I want Silicus, baron and vect back.

    • Rainthezangoose

      Ironhalo hit the nail on the head with that one.

    • Carey_Mahoney

      I’d sign that petition!

  • J Mad

    DE are bad atm b.c GW keeps taking away from them again and again and then nerfing their fire output.

    DE shouldnt even need to spend CP on WWP.. should just be an army wide rule.

    PFP chart literally (other than number 1) only helps Melee units.. wtf? why only melee? The point of how PFP is to make DE better as the game goes on, and that is fine. It just needs to be different for Coven and they need to be better (number 5 is a joke, cant even be used on turn 5, literally moral phase is broken and units are normally already crippled on turn 5).

    Many units are 30-100% over costed, but that should be fixed with the new codex (yes as is some units are double the cost as should be, and much war gear is too, one is 4x the cost as it should be).

    What DE need is a new writer for them, someone that actually loves DE and rewrite the full book.

    • lmao if you wrote the book it would be the most op army gw has ever made. Even worse than 7th ed fantasy daemons

      • Havik110

        3rd BA, 3.5 chaos, and 5th GKs, 6th Eldar, and 7th Tau would like a word with you.

        • Muninwing

          chaos 3.5 was not OP, just complicated. they were better at making into unique or varied builds, and as a result they were a lot of fun to play.

          there were a couple builds that could have easily been nerfed into balance without removing all the character and usefulness….

          • Havik110

            Night lords and korne demon bomb were obscenely OP.

            3 units of raptors guaranteed to 1st turn assault you was crippling. Especially because armies were much smaller and once again had 1/5th of the shooting.

          • Muninwing

            they had their counters. some pretty easy ones too.

            if you’re scared of daemons, target the units that can summon. definitely keep that unit with the special banner of “there’s already daemons in here!” from using their power (which could not be used until turn 2).

            the… berserker glaive? some Khorne themed weapon… was nasty, but needed to close to use.

            i miss the build-it-yourself leaders, and the treatment that the Legions got, and the Possessed that weren’t crap (because you chose their ability).

          • Havik110

            Khornate chain axes made termies and marines cry

      • J Mad

        Why do you say that? Have you seen the cost of Shredders, Heat Lances, Reavers, Hellions, Talos? Have you done the math behind them and see how they actually do? Did you even look them the index at all?

        Have you seen the cost of Reavers? they are the same cost as Shiny Spears, without an Invul, only s4 and -1ap 2 attacks, their special weapon replaces their splinter rifle unlike SS’s and its only 1 per 3, the 1 melee weapon is either a power sword or a poison 4+ pseudo power sword.

        Shredders are 4x the cost, they are out preformed by Storm Bolters. Point for Point SB’s are better.

        Heat Lances an assault S6 18″ Melta gun for 25pts.. why is it 25pts? its 10pts more than a Melta gun, yes it +6″, but its also -2S, shouldnt the pros and cons be equal effect and keep the cost 17pts?

        • Havik110

          silly, GW doesnt do math…

  • MarcoT

    I didn’t play them in 8th yet (spoiled for choice) but they seemed ok to me on paper. Transports being tougher and saver really should help, right?

    • J Mad

      Nah, t5 10w’s isnt anything anymore, when many weapons do more than 1 damage, some flat 2, others flat 3 damage and a few D6 damage.

      DE vehicles both needs to be cheaper for more survivable for sure.

  • DawnStone

    “They struggle to deal with enemy vehicles, especially at range…”
    On the contrary, this is the only thing they currently do well. Ravagers are quite efficient for taking out Vehicles. I think lots of DE players are expecting a slight points increase on the Dark Lance because it’s quite strong for 25 points compared to the lascannon.

    It’s hordes DE have absolutely no solution for. Splinter weapons need a rework, as do assault units like Wyches.

    • defensive

      I would take a lascannon over a dark lance any day of the week.
      Strength 8 means you’ll be wounding a lot of targets on 4s, and AP -4 is nothing special, when you take into account how annoyingly common 5++ saves are.

      • Leonidas Karapanagiotis

        Not to mention lascannons are 48 range compared to 36 dark Lance’s which is huge…

      • Dawnstone

        You’re all forgetting a key difference which is that the Dark Lance can be fired with no penalty when moving if it’s on a vehicle. Bright Lances don’t get this despite being the same points & profile. They’re a good buy.

    • Warrior24_7

      Why would a Dark Eldar, Dark Lance cost any more points than a Eldar Bright Lance when they’re the exact same weapon and do the same thing? That’s ridiculously stupid. This is another nerf guy.

    • Warrior24_7

      They have a solution for hordes, assault weapons and their Ravagers w/Disintegrators. They also cause wounds just by flying over a unit. They’re more vehicle dependent than any army in the game.

      • Bear Grant

        They absolutely don’t have an answer for hordes. Disintegrators are too expensive to offer any help with hordes- they are better suited to killing terminators or primaris/elites. Splinter is useless vs hordes as it only ever wounds half the time.

      • Fueldrop

        Disintegrators are not cost-effective for hoards. to make its 30 points back a single disintegrator needs to kill 6 guardsmen, which at 3 shots a turn hitting on 3’s wounding on 3’s is going to take an average of 4 turns per gun. That is not cost effective by any stretch of the imagination.

        They do not cause wounds by flying over the enemy and haven’t since 5th.

  • Luca Lacchini

    Point costs, characters, equipment list. That’s the bare minimum.
    What the DE lack compared to other Codex armies is the multiple sinergies/combo effects, and no, I’m not talking about Stratagems.

    • Gamecock13

      Thank you. Stratagems aren’t meant to be focus area for your survival…DE need a lot of help and it begins with basic mechanics.

  • Dalinair

    Some serious point reductions across the board and I imagine they will get some ravenguard/alaitoc -1 to hit type army rule too. Agree with the article, power from pain needs a complete revamp considering 95% of games are over by turn 2/3

  • Dan Brugman

    Oh joy, another army that BoLS writers think should have -1 to hit at range… cause that isn’t one of the main balancing issues in the current rules set. Admittedly this is one of the few armies that probably should get it, but they give out this ability like it’s candy and it’s seriously problematic for armies with mediocre BS like tau, crippling for ork builds that are shooty based, and unfun and frustrating for units with abilities that proc on 6+ to hit like tesla (nothing like paying for an ability that 60% – 70% of armies just turn off by existing…)

  • Majere613

    As far as getting into combat goes, with my Wych Cult I had some success charging Raiders into units with the Wyches still inside. If you can do that to several units at once, the next turn the Wyches can pile out and attack. Raiders in general are odd in that they feel frail against medium weapons, but actually tougher than tanks against things like Lascannons due to the 5++. Of course, a strat allowing Wyches to jump out after a transport moved would be a massive help.

    The Lhamaean needs sorting out, too. At the moment she’s pretty worthless, but she could have a 6″ bubble of +1 to wound with poison weapons, for example.

    • Muninwing

      i want Wyches to be a fun go-to, but they have to be (and have always had to be) played like the glass cannons they are.

      if they are stranded out in the open, they die. back in 4th, when they could pile into a new fight after murdering their first target, this was fine. if they could consolidate into a raider, they’d be fine. if raiders blocked line of sight instead of being in the air, they’d be fine.

      if raiders had special rules for embarkation and disembarking, including allowing a wych or other unit riding a raider to jump into any combay where the raider charged, they’d be super fun.

      if DE had a special rule to replace poison in the new environment… since now everything can be hurt on a 6, they’d need an expansion of wounds done, or doing moral wounds instead…

      if their weapons were reconfigured to match what else we are seeing in the meta, so darklances were the parallels to lascannons that they used to be… or either the exact same (in both price and ability) as brightlances, that would be a no-brainer. maybe they stay their traditional S8, but become S11 vs high toughness, and do d6 (or a flat 3) wounds? personally i’d prefer 2d3, but dare do dream?

      i’m ok not having Vect in the book, but i don’t see why there aren’t more SCs. as much as i hate them and what they do to torpedo balance, they have become the regular crutch that the game demands. possibly rules for fielding the Baron… that doesn’t make every DE army universally bland by depending on one (hello gulliman). also, if fielding some unit like the Baron, maybe some sort of fluff-representative bonus and penalty (“no trueborn” should be a given… hellions as troops would be fun but probably not going to happen anymore…).

      this is an army with so much potential.

      but, like the Sisters, give them crap rules and GW can’t blame anyone but themselves for their lack of success.

  • Warrior24_7

    I play them and have NEVER had a problem with space marines, Nids, or IG. It were the Orks, Tau, and Eldar that posed a threat. Orks in particular. Their transports and Ravagers are their life. blood.

    1. So, they need to be fast, deadly, and somewhat resilient. At least the same T and W characteristics as a Wave Serpent.

    2. Keep the speed with long range movement, and add the ability to use their web way portals in the same way as a Skathach Wraith Knight uses its.

    3. They should have the ability to inflict mortal wounds in CC and shooting like other armies.

    4. And last but not least…ally and mesh well with Harliquins and othe Eldar and that should do it.

    They really don’t need much.

    • Gamecock13

      I play DE exclusively. They need a lot of help right now. Your fourth bullet point is to ally them with another faction.

      I specifically play against tyranids often. If you are playing against an alpha strike tyranid army, your chance of survival are slim to none, so I don’t know what/who you are playing against. No disrespect here, but the point variance alone is staggering btwn DE and codexed armies in terms of ‘bang for your buck’

  • AkulaK

    Bring back Nighshrouds with -6″ to range. That won’t help against lascannons, but with lighter shots it sure would help alot.

    DE should be fast as lightning with extremly high firepower at least in close range. Sure they should die quite fast except for Coven units, but that should be mitigated with a really strong firepower.

  • euansmith

    It could be cool if they could deploy Web Way Portals on the table top; like Realm Gate Portals in AoS. These could allow the DE to redeploy around the table in the same way that portals do in AoS.

    • Erich Schoenholtz

      That would be awesome and I’d have a use for my WWP templates again!

    • Coltcabunny

      If GW can make a terrain feature (like the Nurgle tree) and charge people to do it (no free templates for you!) you know they’ll do it.

  • defensive

    They need much more hit modifiers.
    Doesn’t seem right that they are the shadier, more stealthy cousins of regular eldar, while at the same time eldar can stack -3 modifers reliably, and DE get stuck with measly -1 on 1 vehicle and 1 infantry unit.

  • Carey_Mahoney

    Deep Strike ( -> Webway) as an army-wide innate ability with no points increase. Ta-daa!

  • benn grimm

    The problem is the core game and the space it allows (or in this case doesn’t allow) the DE to function anything like their lore suggests they would and it’s been this way for a while now, 8th just reinforces it. If you aren’t (comparably) all that fast, can’t really manoeuvre to avoid enemy fire and don’t really hit that much harder than anything else, you can’t really function as a glass cannon.

  • Havik110

    The problem with DE is that they are still priced and built for 4th edition where there was half as much shooting in the game that 1 turn has now.

    GE then forgets that they are the original eldar. They would have more powerful/dangerous technology than the craftworlders have so long as it didnt involve psychic powers.

    They also would have items/nulls to protect them from psychers so the no ability to stop a power is ridiculous.

    • Kabal1te

      GW has ignored these truths and replaced them with alternative facts

      • eMtoN

        #fakerules

  • Davis Centis

    I definitely agree that the Dark Kin need some amazing “Mr Clean, right behind you!” moments. It’d be cool if their Raiders intrinsically could Deep Strike, and maybe an artifact that lets any units embarked in a transport with the model with the artifact can hop out after the vehicle moves instead of before. That, right there, would massively change up the Dark Eldar, and make them feel “faster”. I don’t actually want them to be survivable, because toughness has never been their thing, but having an artifact that could force -1 to hit army-wide for a turn (Night Fight) would be grand. I hate seeing point drops, because there’s a limit on how much that can be done. Anyone remember when Hormagaunts were 15 points per model?

    • Apocryphus

      I remember when they were, but having gone back and played 4th ed recently, everything, including gaunts, had more value. I think the new wound chart has skewed a lot of things in the wrong direction. Remember when T6 was a big deal?

      • Davis Centis

        Pepperidge Farm remembers.

        However, I think the new to-wound system is a lot better. Stuff is both better and worse this way. Little things can hurt big things better, which is good, and big things hurt little things a bit worse, which I also think is good. It means the little stuff is more functional, which I think is healthy, as I prefer my games to have a lot of infantry, as I find that aesthetically appealing.

        If anything, I find my gaunts matter more now than before! They hurt more things, are less easily hurt, and are better at controlling my opponent’s movements. The only thing they’re worse at is hunkering down backfield in a crater for cover saves.

        • Apocryphus

          My gaunts haven’t done much but flub, but that’s likely just bad luck. My primary issue with the new to-wound system is that a swath of tougness values are arbitrary. T7 for instance is sitting in this weird limbo where the only difference between it and T6 is that S14 wounds on 2s. I agree though, it is also nice that infantry heavy armies have more value, as I love me my foot sloggers too.

  • Kabal1te

    I think GW won’t bother to fix the dark eldar, they don’t much seem to care, which is sad

  • Erich Schoenholtz

    Bring back Archons on jet bikes. Getting a highly mobile beat stick would be a boon. They also need some form of LoW that’s not forge world.

  • eMtoN

    5th ed DE were great. Every update, coded and faq since then has simply seen them go further down the drain.

    Drukhari need someone inside GW advocating for them. This codex already feels like an afterthought; hope I’m wrong.

    • Kabal1te

      The problem with dark eldar is they are too good at being what they are. See chaos is the big bad that GW wants. It fits too well with their cliche deus ex machina writing style and galaxy threatening narrative. However as a villain chaos is boring as hell, demons and the chaos gods are evil die the sake of evil because they are made of evil. Chaos marines (of all varieties) and their cultists are corrupted to evil really without realizing just what it was when they fell. Similarly tyranids like chaos gods are what they are. None of these groups really made the choice to be evil. They simply are because they aren’t able to be anything else at this point. While they do a great job at being galactic level threats they are dull. Dark Eldar however are the best villains in 40k because they are the only ones that actively made the choice to become evil. They were presented with a threat and with plenty of choices on how to survive it, they chose evil. That makes them the most interesting villainous faction the setting has. This combined with the fact that they really aren’t a threat that leads to galaxy threatening doom stories leaves GW I think unsure what to do with them as well to do anything with them properly would require genuine good narrative that doesn’t involve deus ex machina cop outs, and GW doesn’t have someone that is a good enough writer for that.

      • Muninwing

        when you write chaos like that, they are in fact boring. but that’s not what they are.

        it might even be closer to what they are more recently, but chaos itself is complicated and multifaceted in ways that many of the more recent writers are just failing to understand or expand on.

        in contrast, if you were born into Commorragh society, i doubt you chose much of anything past survival. perhaps the pre-fall Eldar that were there made a choice, but that’s 10,000 years of corruption, thaumaturgy, and gladiatorial combat that changed their world for the worst.

        being a product of your environment is not making a choice.

        • Kabal1te

          You say that. And to a certain extent the lowest dregs of commorragh is not to different from an imperium underhive, but you have Vect as a prime example of what those low born dregs can become. Not to mention there are plenty of examples of commorrites… commorraghites… whatever… ending up elsewhere be it in the ranks of corsairs or harlequins. To say they have no choice is not totally true.

          As far as what chaos is, show me a chaos demon with enough autonomy to act against the nature of its respective god. Only really Belakor has that liberty. The rest of them feel one dimensional. Chaos marines aren’t much better. Not only have I never seen any real justification to explain why Joe the world eater didn’t have the sense to realize his primarch was falling to something dark and evil and turning against the emperor and that attacking his fellow marines was clearly wrong, but there is even less reason for Joe the world eater to have not realized that somewhere along the way as time has gone on. Most of the named chaos marines are well chaos marines because they clearly don’t care any longer about humanity. The space marines were crusaders of humanity and large numbers of them abandoned that because “my primarch told me to” without any justification that has ever made any sense. Only the thousand sons at best have a semi viable excuse that I have read.

          • Muninwing

            there’s so much here to break down…

            firstoff, you are right in the the “lowest dregs” are pretty much universally the same. and (SC aside, due to plot armor and the like) most of them end up with the same problems.

            just like in the real world — if you are in desperate straits enough to be more worried about your next meal and escaping death, you’re not really able to lay longterm broad-reaching plans. notable characters are excluded because of the one-in-a-million success stories that people use to claim that such problems do not exist.

            the average Hive Ganger will never leave the hive. they do not choose to remain, they just have no resources nor ability to do otherwise. similarly, the average dreg from Commorragh is much more likely to end poorly (killed, experimented on, enslaved, have the life sucked form them, used as fodder, eaten by a grue) than rise through the ranks.

            that’s not a choice.

            maybe they made a choice millenia ago… but that’s not he same.

          • Muninwing

            as for chaos…

            Joe the World Eater probably also had the Butcher’s nails, and probably also found glory and joy in the mindless rages they were going into. thus, with the attention of a deity, encouraging their actions with boons and support, why would he now want to fight alongside Angron?

            Then again, there were plenty of War Hounds who hated what their legion was becoming, and were loyal to what their legion was — same with the Luna Wolves.

            most legions did not fall en masse to chaos, aside from the Thousand Sons (and they had reason for that). those that had higher numbers of conversions were the already-indoctrinated Word Bearers (the super-religious-cult chapter who already had the chaos-themed warrior lodges integrated in their legion structure).

            but that’s all Horus Heresy stuff. still, it’s pretty well documented. plenty of actual choice, plenty of defiance of authority or questioning which authority was greater.

          • Gamecock13

            Dark Eldar is the compelling, machevelian-style evil we need in 40k. Chaos is super bland.

          • Muninwing

            i’d say that they both have different abilities to be interesting.

          • Muninwing

            and daemons… they are by definition not able to choose. they are embodiments of primal forces.

            but the Four are much more nuanced than that, especially when written by better authors than the recent ones.

            take, for example, Nurgle. despite recent attempts to retcon Big Papa to justify the flawed cramming of Skaven into chaos, it’s a great example of just how complicated Chaos is, and why it’s always a choice.

            the Four are the primal embodiments of the four most powerful base emotions. Love, Hate, Hope, and Despair. they are also primary each to a major part of society (particularly medieval society)… the Soldiery, the Clergy and Scholars, the Peasantry, and the Nobility. They all have their positive aspects… but the Four are the results of these being twisted to their worst.

            Nurgle is despair. Nurgle’s domain is decay and rot and everything falling apart, because it’s a representation of this. Nurgle is also the acceptance of nihilism, and the joy of acceptance of your fate. Nurgle is a show of just how depressing and hopeless it is to have no resources.

            as a concept, it’s interesting. but then applied to a character…? chaos is always a choice for a mortal. you need to be tried and tested… and fail. you need to succumb. and that itself is where the stories get interesting. first, temptation. then, experience. finally, the fall. that’s storytelling and humanity on a base level.

            if that’s uninteresting and not compelling, i’m afraid you don’t have much imagination.

          • Kabal1te

            The problem with all that is you don’t see any of that on the tabletop anywhere. I mean sure if you deep read on the chaos gods there is a lot to them, but the demons especially in their tabletop iterations we see in codexes and even old world WFB have none of that nuance. What is presented is the blandest evil for evil sake because evilness. I mean there is no where in any edition of any GW game where a bloodletter is ever more interesting or complex than angry murder yob.

          • Muninwing

            umm… where do you see it in the DE?

            that’s your whole argument, right? you’re applying a huge double standard because you just plain like one more than the other.

            and that’s your prerogative, to have an opinion… even one that’s clearly ignoring a vast amount of information to get there. but it’s also the right of others to point out where your bias is overwhelming your logic.

            daemons are personifications of ideas. i think GW could have gotten a lot more out of making each one more individualistic, more specific to an aspect… in theory they’re halfway there. i do wish they’d followed more of what Exalted came out with in their Yozis/primoridals… that the biggest bads were personifications of complex ideas, their first-circle iterations (of which there are a low number) are the most important components of that concept… the second-circle daemons are more generalized forms of their first (and each first’s are different), and are still treated as individuals. the third-circle daemons are more common footsoldier types and are en masse the same, but there are a few per second-circler.

            thus… Khorne as the primary embodiment of anger and hate would have first-circlers that were wrath, bravery, martial pride, murder, just execution, and revenge… and perhaps Martial pride would have second-circlers that were chivalry, command, weapon mastery, berserkerdom, etc. and the third-circle daemons of berserkerdom would be like bloodletters.

            even if the models were similar, but the armaments, or the colors, or the like were different, it would give some personality. not every greater daemon should be a bloodthirster — they should take many forms. perhaps not as many as in Exalted, but some variance.

            especially Slaanesh. given that most of the Deadly Sins are well in Slaaneshi territory, there should be different daemons for gluttonous indulgence, sexual indulgence, and greedy indulgence.

            but since daemons were (up until 4th) traditionally just add-ons to Chaos armies, not full forces of their own (barring Storm of Chaos for WHF giving them lists), it makes sense that they were kept relatively simple.

    • Gamecock13

      Cannot upvote this enough. No advocation seems to be where the problem begins, but not where it ends.

  • Jared McWilliams

    DE have a lot of issues.

    Lack of worthwhile HQs, and current HQs buff synergy is relatively weak.

    Archon giving units within 6″ LD 9 if they are kabal is a very weak buff, most kabal units are LD8 from the squad leader already so we are looking at +1ld to units within 6″. That’s nothing to write home about, especially when we have other characters granting bonus to hit, or rerolls.

    Succubus gives rerolls of 1 to wyches within range, but only in the fight phase and wyches have their own problems.

    Haemonculus give +1T to coven units which is not bad.

    Following that most of their units/wargear are overcosted for what they do. Honestly rather than simply lower the cost it would be nice if the units/wargear were improved.

    With the changes to wound tables poisoned weapons are arguably worse this edition. Always wounding on 4+ against infantry is good, but not as good as it was when being 2-3 T higher than attack Strength made you wound on 6s.

    Wyches need a anytime 5++ save and the 4++ during the fight phase. It would scale with the Wych characters who have a 4++ and 3++ during the fight phase.

    As has already been said many of the points need adjusting.

    I could go on but there is not point, whatever is in the codex is already printed.

    • Gamecock13

      That heamonc aura doesn’t even work on transports if you’re in one. So I hope you enjoy running your haemonc along the outside of a raider/venom for the added +1T bonus!

      Ridiculous.

  • Gamecock13

    Not a terrible idea for those who have no interest in playing anything but pure dark eldar.

  • Gamecock13

    “seem to have some issue allying them, why?” The same reason I don’t play Tau. I don’t have an interest. Dark Eldar we’re created as a standalone army, I got into it as a standalone army.

    See DE a as horde army? Sorry friend, never said that..didn’t even imply. The goal of creating a “good codex” isn’t to out do those other codexes, it is to be competitive, which we currently aren’t.

    I took issue with your approach of “I’m not having an issue, so we are all good” same as I’m having issue with Tyranids doesn’t technically mean anything, neither does your success. You could be great, or your competition could suck…opposite applies in my circumstance.

    • Warrior24_7

      I took your post correctly… You’re whining, that’s it and that’s all as you STILL haven’t offered “your” ideas for the new codex.

      If you have no interest and want a standalone army, then don’t ally, it’s just that simple, nobody is forcing you. And that personal choice means what, nothing, means absolutely nothing toward the new codex plus you’ve solved your own problem. But you want to prevent others from allying just like other armies in 7th and 8th. Ynnari have used DE units in their armies so you’re behind the times.

      I never said that I didn’t have a problem, IN FACT I listed the armies that my DE had a tough time with right in the first few sentences of the post. So yeah, your full of caca. Further, I had no idea that “you” had issues playing your DE against Nids when I made the post. Of course list composition, scenarios, tactics, terrain, rules, and dice rolls all play a part in your dismal performance against “that” particular Nid army. Post your list… Exactly!

      The goal of creating “a good codex” is not catering to the whims of a casual player who can’t beat friend.

      • Gamecock13

        Man, you can’t seem to function on you own wave length let alone follow someone else’s. I’m not whining, and quite frankly I’ve listed my thoughts on improvements in many other forums. I don’t feel it necessary to post them to the one guy incapable of following them to begin with.

        GW established Dark Eldar as a stand alone army, and so I have chosen to play them as a stand alone army (are you still following?). So, if we establish they should be capable of being played as a stand alone, then the rules should support that..and if you want to tack on some Quins, good for you. The goal should then be to make them capable as functioning as one. Has very little to do with my whim..that’s setting a base expectation and then sticking to it (I have no doubt you’re lost already, but I’m going to forge on..)

        Your very first sentence of your very first post is still obstuse. Congrats for being a dwarf amongst midgets…I think you’ll find competent individuals playing at a high level are able to exploit the significant power/point variance between index and codex armies. If your little brother can’t figure it out then I suppose you would feel like a conquerer of worlds. Ignorance is bliss!

  • Jared McWilliams

    Depends on how buffs apply, if they target a keyword that the units lose if they are Ynnari then there is not an issue.

  • Spacefrisian

    15 points off the Raider (80 points) and allow disembark for Wych cults after it has moved half its max movement.

    Allow Mandrakes to be placed closer than 9+ inches.(from shadows and such, or make there old 3 markers thing a strategem)

    Rerelease the old Vect and Kruellagh models with ruls, or failing that new models. And bring back Duke Sliscus, the Baron,the Decapitator and Lady Malys.

    And for crying out loud give the Archon (and while we are at it Succubus) the Reaver jetbike back.

  • After endless tries, I had to give up playing as the Dark Kin, although they have always been my favourite army. I mean, just look at my avatar here, for Vect’s sake!

    I think we really need some rules that not only reflect our personality but also give us some chance to be a competitive army (again?). I am not talking about tournaments, I am talking about the game and the army itself.

    The wait until the codex is released seems to be dragging on for ages. I have even started a Blood Angel army while waiting, it looks like we are finally going to see the sun go down again.

  • Intrinsic

    Several guys that do a Dark Eldar podcast were directly involved with GW in the making of the DE Codex. They’ve also had the codex for several weeks and have played many games with it. They give it a very solid rating, which tells me the DE will be more Tyranid tier than Admech tier. You Dark Eldar players will be just fine.