Pimpcron: When Proxying Is a Sin in 40k

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Pimpcron is asking on behalf of your hobby salvation.

People! Oh, and non-people too. Don’t wanna be exclusive. Secretary of Humor, Pimpcron, is here again with a question that many of you will squirm over. I had a conversation with a guy from my gaming club last night about when proxies are acceptable in our community and when they aren’t. Here’s a guide for players to make everything clear.

Why Are You Proxying?

So a guy (or gal, or non-person, or sentient pebble, or futuristic anthropomorphized emotion) comes into your club and has an army full of proxies. If you don’t already know, this is what is going through our heads when we are looking over your army and ready to judge you. Why is this person proxying these models?

Proxy using IG rules to represent Hrud – nice!

 

The person (or otherwise) is proxying models to fit a theme for their army that you otherwise couldn’t pull off with the standard miniatures.

Most of us would be fine with this. Like someone wants a different style of Guardsmen regiment hailing from their own home world the player made up. The player bought 3rd party models or bits to make their guardsmen into animal people, or WW2-style soldiers, or whatever nobody would have an issue at all. I’ve seen all manners of Chaos Spawn, Possessed, Beasts of Nurgle, etc. proxied with really cool looking models. Even some cool Tyranid proxies that look cool.

Two of my Heldrakes.

The player is proxying expensive models with very cheap models.

This is tricky territory. Is your Imperial Knight just a Megazord from Power Rangers that you pulled out of your childhood toy box? Not cool. Is your entire army Power Rangers themed? Okay, then we’d have to let it pass because it may not have been proxied for cheapness purposes, but to fit the theme. Are you using that Megazord in a friendly battle to try it out before buying a real one? Most of us are cool with that too. It’s smart to test play something before dropping a hundred or more dollars on it.

My Daemon Prince with wings.

The Proxy is not the same size as the real model.

This is the red zone people; this is almost never acceptable. The biggest issue with this used to base size due to templates, but that isn’t a problem anymore. Now the biggest problem with a size disparity is line of sight or line of sight blocking. Anybody would call foul if you proxied a Meganob for a Morkanaut. Seriously? That is not cool. If you are trying it out for rules purposes before buying, then find ANYTHING that is roughly the right size and use that instead. A Solo Cup, a small potted cactus, and lazy kitten, anything. Not only does that make you look like you’re intentionally trying to cheat, but it doesn’t give you an accurate feel for how it plays anyway. Not often will a Morkanaut be completely out of LOS. If your proxy is bigger, that is more acceptable because it is generally a disadvantage to you the proxier. But don’t make it a habit, go buy the real thing soon.

Obliterator.

The proxy’s models aren’t recognizable as the original weapons.

Absolutely not buddy. The main reason for having models in this game is so that your opponent can look at the model and tell what it does. Weapons are generally what the model “does”. If you bring a sword-carrying proxy and tell me it’s a lascannon, I won’t be happy because I shouldn’t have to ask you every five seconds what each model is supposed to have. It makes it even worse if there are multiple models with the wrong weapons.

[start of the game] “Okay, so just so you know, this sword guy is a Lascannon guy. This Captain doesn’t really have this Power Fist, he is just a chainsaw dude. This whole group of people holding clubs is actually Cultists with guns. See these Jump Pack guys? Yeah, they are just regular guys without jump packs. And I didn’t give them either of those Meltaguns or the Power sword, so just remember that they are bog standard. Now, these regular looking marines are actually Noise Marines, the Flamer is a Doom Siren.” [gets punched in the face repeatedly]

Couple of my Chaos Bikers.

In Recap

It is generally acceptable to proxy if you are going for a unique theme to your army, and your models are the appropriate size with analogous weapons. If any of your army doesn’t fit this format then you may run into trouble with other players. This is an expensive hobby and we all expect a certain level of investment. If it looks like you are proxying just to be cheap, then you’re gonna get dirty looks. Don’t be that guy who shows up with his “Imperial Guard Army” of green army men.

What is the worst proxy sin you’ve seen?

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PS, Top image is a papercraft template for a terminator.
  • orionburn III

    Pretty much nailed everything in regards to proxies. My biggest complaint right now are people breaking up their Marine army into different chapters to gain certain buffs. Yes, my army is all blue but these guys are Raven Guard. Oh and these bikes are White Scars. And these Devastators are Salamanders. But these blue guys are actually Ultramarines. Again, it’s one thing to play test but time after time it gets really old.

    • b00gnish

      That always bothered me BEFORE there were major bonuses for chapter/legion rules. Pick a chapter you think is cool and paint em all up accordingly.

      • Fergie0044

        Agree. My Ad mech are all Ryza because I think the paint scheme is cool. Therefore I play them as Ryza, to hell with competitiveness.

      • J Mad

        So the players that enjoy the game more than painting cant have fun? If they hate painting and already painted their army, why should they repaint them the play by the the rules and what is fun for them?

        • orionburn III

          Yes, but who’s fun is more important? Should you sacrifice your fun so that someone else can? There needs to be some middle ground on this. I don’t mind it at all if somebody has a smurf army and says they’re running them as Salamanders for the game. It’s when they start mixing up 3 different chapters that it can be difficult to keep things straight.

          I painted my Nids up as a Leviathan fleet back in 7th. That’s who I run them as all the time. I might try one of the other Hive Fleets in a future game but I wouldn’t mix fleets as I personally feel that isn’t fair to my opponent to try and keep straight.

          • ZeeLobby

            Agreed. I think J Mad was responding to b00gnish though. I have no problem with your reasoning, but if someone came with a mixed force of differently painted Marines, I’d have no problem with that (we’ve seen it many times in the fluff). It’s a little harder now since we all expect the different chapters rules, but if they applied one set to all (led by an Ultramarines captain so Ultramarines) I’d have no issue.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            I used to run crusade forces back in the day, with Templar, dark angels, blood angels and crimson fists.. Just all running standard marine rules.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. And that’s awesome. The simpler days.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Mainly due to me being indecisive and likely all the paint schemes.

          • orionburn III

            I should clarify – as long as they’re cool with my other example (somehwere) of being able to change a shooting target or other similar confusion of chapter tactics then I’m okay with that. There’s been a lot of times where I declare targets, shoot at one unit, then go to the next one and then its “these guys are -1 to hit because they’re Raven Guard.” I’ll say if that’s the case then I’m shooting at these guys instead. I’ve yet to run into an issue with anyone because of that, but first time a guy does say I can’t change targets now then we’re going to have a problem.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. That’s def nutts. Totally understand your position.

          • And Chaos forces having different remnants of the original legions and new renegade bands working together has always been part of the fluff. Noise marines and berserkers on the same side? Fine, no need to paint them both as Black Legion unless you want to.

          • LankTank

            Well it;s a little different when Khorne Berserkers and Noise marines have NOTABLE differences between the models as opposed to Black Raven Guard and a subfaction of another chapter ALSO painted black.

        • Sleeplessknight

          No. No you can’t. Please do everyone a favor and leave the hobby.

        • oh, magoo…

          If you hate painting you are in the wrong hobby.

          Basically this:

          One force painted as ____.
          “these guys are ____.
          Cool.

          Two forces painted as two different things.
          “the red guys are ___ the blue guys are ___.
          Fine.

          Whatever painted as whatever.
          “these are Raven guard and these are UM and these are…”
          Go away.

          • Muninwing

            i will caveat here…

            i play Dark Angels

            at certain points, the DA rules have been crap compared to the vanilla codex. detrimentally so. huge point differences, for no real reason past dropping the ball.

            because GW was not doing their due diligence with game balance, i was perfectly fine when people were playing the “Emerald Angels” Ultramarines successors. i never did, but i didn’t fault anyone else for it.

          • LankTank

            But if they then said these green marines are DA and these green marines are UM and these green marines are RG?

          • J Mad

            Its a 4 part hobby, i know some that like the story more than the models, like painting more than playing, like playing more than painting, etc…

            Telling someone how to spend their time with their hobby is kinda sad. Its their hobby. If they are playing by the basic rules and having fun, why cant others do the same?

            If you dont agree with how he is playing talk to him, we are adults.

          • LankTank

            Lol not all players are.
            In fact the WORSE cases I have ever seen of Proxy abuse are middle aged dudes (cannot say adults) still on minimum wage jobs trying to proxy broken models of ebay as the newest and hottest unit in the codex’s.
            I still remember a player who had a army made of 4th hand space wolves, templars, blood angels etc, no unifying theme. They were painted horrifically but that is fine as he did his best, but everything had limbs missing, weapons that weren’t what they were, Rune Priests made out of Templar guys, Wold lords from Bolter wielding Death company. I had to play it through and forced him to write EVERYTHING out turn 2 when he started changing wargear. Would never repeat a game like that again

          • Callum Rae

            But it’s not just their hobby, as soon as they’re playing a game against someone it’s both of their hobby. In their bedroom with their paints and models they can do what they want, but when other people are involved they have to take that in to consideration.

          • J Mad

            OR, talk to them and find out way they are doing the things they are doing. You may find it has a good reason.

        • Having a uniform color scheme between factions is a major no-no to me, it is a barrier to your opponent’s ability to understand your army. having an ultramarines army that uses raven guard and dark angels rules. Just paint your army a chapter that doesn’t have a specific founder and differentiate the paint schemes of different factions that’s all

          • J Mad

            And thats you, I dont want my SoB as 2 different colors, i dont want my Harlequins as 2 different colors, but i want to be able to change my play style time to time. I want to be able to play around with lists and not worry about paint colors.

            There is a difference in being able to distinguish them apart and having different paint jobs/schemes.

          • LankTank

            Yes change it BETWEEN games. But don’t use BOTH during the same game when the models look identical.

        • piglette

          By that logic marine players should just use whichever book is best regardless of models. So if Space Wolves have hot rules, use your Blood Angels as Space Wolves.

    • Koen Diepen Van

      This is what happens when the game part and the hobby part get into conflict whit each other. A problem that gw keeps creating because they seem to think that it is nessicary to keep forceing hobby asects into the game aspect. Ppl don’t nee soup lists and armour colour bufss to collect the models at all .But apearantly gw thinks they do

    • Fergie0044

      That would be super hard to keep track of, for both player and opponent. If it was a friend, then ok I’d let it slide, but if it was a stranger it opens the door to easy abuse and I’d avoid playing them.

    • Muninwing

      on one hand, the paint shouldn’t matter…

      on the other hand, it does.

      i think there’s some overlap here with the issues of successor chapters and whether they get bonuses or SCs… but i also think that the proliferation of SCs has been worse for the game and its balance than flyers or superheavies.

    • Drpx

      You must loathe the Deathwatch then. Also, it’s not only Marines, I see people mixing Ynnari and Craftworld armies.

      • euansmith

        That’s not kosher!

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          Well Ynnari aren’t orthodox.

      • orionburn III

        We only have one Eldar player in our group and even he doesn’t play them that often. I can see that happening just as much with Eldar as Marines, though.

    • generalchaos34

      Im going to agree 100% with this, a unified paint scheme should never be broken down into X and Y chapters without at least doing the effort of making them blatantly different. Ive played games where my opponent was saying “and this squad of scouts are Raven guard, but this squad over here is going to be ultramarines” and its just frustrating to the extreme. At least with my guard tanks I have regiment flags that differentiate them (the paint scheme is city camo, so not distinct) and for the basilisks I change the crew men to their respective regiments.

      • euansmith

        “That squad there is Raven Guard?”, pulls out a can of black undercoat and starts shaking, “Don’t worry, I’ve got yellow, red and green spray cans too; I’ve got you covered for any other Chapters you might be fielding.”

        • Pimpcron

          Oh snap. The situation just got intense.

        • Bigalmoney666

          you are a hero.

        • LankTank

          hahahahaha my hero!

        • Callum Rae

          Nice 😂

    • piglette

      I wish instead of imbalanced sub faction rules that force people to proxy, we just had army creation tools with choosable universal rules like some of the old codices had. That way you could have a bike ultramarine army that is actually Ultramarines or a tank heavy imperial fists army that is actually IF.

    • Bigalmoney666

      I want to upvote this twice!

  • Michael Campbell

    Worst I ever had was as a kid, one of my mates wanted to play a big game of 40k. Showed up with paint pots as “sentinels”, and some other equally crazy stuff. Though he wasn’t trying to be a dick, we were all just poor as hell 😉

    • LeroyJenkinss

      It’s different playing sry home vs a store. We proxy all types of stuff at home and half the time forgery what it is! But we’re all friends and just want to have fun so who cares. In a shop its a whole different ballgame.

    • Nosebleed

      Hey but u had fun didn’t you? That’s what matters.

    • Severius_Tolluck

      I was so piss poor when I started. For fantasy I just had sheets of paper with the bases measured out on them, and labeled what the unit was. As I took casualties I crossed out each grid that died.

      • euansmith

        Warhammer Fantasy BINGO! Top idea! Well played!

  • Luca Lacchini

    As I use myself a lot of 3rd party bits here and there, no complain about customized armies. Heck, I still have the RT softcover on my shelf, custom-built pieces are a staple of my idea of WH40K.

    I’m actually OK about fielding a whole army of paper stand ins. Look around the net, there are a whole lot of resources for that, from print ready troops to papercraft vehicles of any size and faction. And they are quite good.

    I’m not OK with paint pot/soda can/cereal box proxies. I understand money issues, refrain to invest in a very expensive hobby, and whatever else, but show a little effort. WW2 plastic troops and tanks, the ones you buy a whole bucket for a few bucks, with a quick base/drybrush/shade paintjob work wonders. Paper stuff, as said before.
    Shapeless tokens? No.

    • euansmith

      “Greetings new citizen of the glorious Imperium! This invasion has been brought to you in conjunction with our drop pod sponsors, Pepsi, Coke and Sprite!”

      • Dennis J. Pechavar

        I prefer Dr. Pepper but that’s heresy to some people.

    • HeadHunter

      I don’t know – if you’re OK with paper tokens, aesthetics and appearance are obviously not concerns. Why care at all, at that point?

  • Fergie0044

    I’ve used proxies a fair few times to try out a unit before deciding to drop cash on it or not. No big deal if done sparingly (strictly one unit in the army) and in a casual setting. I’ve also using my nurgle spawn as beasts of nurgle in the past because, my goodness, the actual beast of nurgle model was ugly.
    My problem right now is wanting to use the new DG codex while still in the process of updating my chaos army. So normal chaos terminators are blightlords and the vindicator is the plague mortar tank thing. Nothing too outrageous imo, and I’m working on getting the proper models done up asap.

  • Coltcabunny

    Proxy and counts as are not synonyms.

    • Pimpcron

      A perfect example of a proxy not being clear as to what it actually is. Plus the wasted bits really pains me.

    • Muninwing

      this is what i came here to say.

      if i make an elaborate series of conversions — 3rd party bits or no — and it’s clear that my models are what they are (they are just different from the bog standard GW), that’s not a proxy army. that’s a counts-as. there is internal consistency even if there is not external pairing with other armies of the same type (which is kinda the point).

      it is not a proxy because it is what it is supposed to be, and was made that way intentionally.

      if i do not intend to use model A as what it is for, what it was assembled for, and what it matches in paint, form, basing, etc… then i’m subbing a model i have for a model i do not. that’s a proxy.

      it is not intended to be that thing until this instance, so i proxy the model in for what i need.

      one is out of design and conversion, the other is out of the need of the moment (and is no longer intended as such once that game is done).

      before GW came up with a model for the crazy giants that the Beastmen have, i proxied in a 4-armed chaos giant i made (from when they were chaos). that was a proxy that became a counts-as once the dust settled. but when i made my own razorgors out of boar heads and dragon ogre lower halves (so i didn’t need to have the terrible frisky Pumbaa model in my army), that was not a proxy — they were designed to always be what they were.

      making Chaos Havocs kitbashes with Flamers back when they had a power that was a de facto HeavyBolter, and when Bolt of Change was effectively a Lascannon… making Chaos Possessed look like disc-riders back when you could pick their powers and they could choose flight (modeling and casting my own discs)… my buddy’s landraider conversion that replaced godhammer lascannons with casting sorcerers and the center hatch with a warp portal… my old Brettonian mini-list that converted every model with flames and skeleton parts to make an army of Mousillon…

      creativity and deliberately making an army that looks different from the norm has always been a part of the game. GW used to support counts-as armies if they were clear — the Cathay (counts-as Bretts) force that was in a WD from the mid-00s was inspired, and so many others were headliners and inspiration through the years. even silly ones.

      it’s another part of the appeal of the game that it’s losing in the transition and reach for the new. and it’s really disappointing.

  • Simon Chatterley

    This is the most sane article you’ve ever written. I really like it and it echoes my thoughts more or less exactly.

    The sane part worries me though…has someone sensible stolen your laptop?

    • orionburn III

      This is like the third one now. I’m worried. We may need to have an intervention soon.

    • Pimpcron

      Oh Simon. I always say that I will win over anyone given enough time. It’s not me who is becoming sensible my friend, it is you who is slowly spiraling into madness as my jibberish begins to make more and more sense. Into madness, into madness, into madness . . . . .

  • Rainthezangoose

    I use skaven with kroot rifles as my renegade imperial guard army as mutant ‘RATlings’.

  • Lyca Atteneder

    I’ve been asked once, by my FLGS, if I had time for a test game with a new guy who just started. So I brought my army to find it opposed by paper… cut to the size of the miniaturs bases and a big paper square that represented a necron monolith. That was kinda depressing…
    Usually I’m not the greatest enemy of proxy models. It really depends though.
    If somebody doesn’t like the look of a miniature and converts, whatever, to roughly resemble the unit he/she/it wants to field, I’m absolutely fine with it.
    If someone doesn’t have a model with a certain weapon and tells me what the model is actually carrying, before the first battle round it’s ok as well.
    I myself usually don’t proxy. The last two times I did was using the FW GUO as a normal GUO and using a DP without wings as a flying one. In both of these cases I told my oppenent before even setting up the units what exactly they were and thankfully it wasn’t an issue. ‘Ah no problem. It’s a Daemon so who cares if it uses actual wings to fly.’ But as I like to play WYSIWYG a DP with wings is allready in the making.

  • defensive

    Honestly, weapon proxies are fairly easy to work with.
    I have a horrible memory, and even I can remember what stuff is supposed to be, within reason.

    Especially less than a year out of a new edition, where weapon usefulness has changed wildly. I can understand people not wanting to rebuy units they already have, just because what they have holds the wrong gun.
    Or just to test out different combinations to see what works. I mean, it’s either that or not putting arms on them at all till you know what you want.

    And besides, you really should be in the habit of giving your opponent a opy of your army list anyway, so they can check it at any point, and that goes both ways.

  • Amen!

  • Agent OfBolas

    I really don’t care about proxies for as long as they are made with a sense of a good taste.

    It’s only a board game.

    • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

      Nope actually it’s mainly a business issue.

  • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

    So kids the lesson here is : Don’t forget to play official miniatures ONLY, don’t convert them and buy them at FULL PRICE !

    • dark-tadpole

      If you’re being serious, I think you missed the point of the article.
      If you’re not being serious, carry on.

      • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

        At least somebody who knows irony.

    • PiotrekEtoo

      Converted miniatures aren’t proxies imo. If someone put effort to do the conversion properly it’s perfectly ok.
      I’ve converted dark elves knights on cold ones to be shining spears. I’ve mounted them on proper bases, using eldar bits they have wysiwyg weapons and stand roughly the same height as eldar jetbikes.
      For me, a proxy would be using anything with similar size base, but being totally different miniature. In this case tau drones for example.

    • Pimpcron

      On today’s episode of “I didn’t read the article, just commented”. . . .

      • orionburn III

        lolz

      • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

        How much time did you spend to tell us a Dictionnary is not a Land Raider ?

        • Pimpcron

          Lol. About 2 hours of writing. Touche.

          • Pl4gu3 B4st4rd

            I’m pretty sure your article was useful, at least for some players who still think McDonald’s cups are drop pods …

          • Pimpcron

            I get the whole money-is-tight thing but I’ve played some people who really abuse proxying and start he game explaining their army like I described in the article. 20+ “Hey remember that this isn’t really this” notes to write down.

          • frank

            I think he read your article.

  • Bakvrad

    Good summary!
    It always helps to have notes next to proxys, so no issues come up.

    We have that one guy in our group – I actually never saw him play without proxies! The last time we played we told him before: no proxies at all.
    The moment he arrived, he told us, he has one proxy. And we told him (because we already assumed this would happen) that he can choose: don’t play and just watch or play with that army we brought extra that has no proxies.
    It was strange, he really had nice armies, even painted. But it happened all the time.

    • Pimpcron

      Sometimes you just get sick of it.

    • frank

      I would just find another game group if I where him because your group sounds awful. If they look nice and are painted wheres the problem?

      • Bakvrad

        Yeah we are aweful: last time he used a warlock engineer as something else, which he meant is just the same and didn’t even mean to tell us the difference. We ended up in attacking him, assuming it’s a warlock. But it was an archwarlock who slew the unit attempting the charge.
        Or in another situation where he had flamethrowers instead of melters in all units, which were 5 rounds out of range, so everyone on the table forgot about it, except him of course. And happening, when we charge to get the objectives…
        don’t get me wrong (you obviously did) I love how his armies look (well at least, those he paid for to get painted) and I don’t mind proxying if both agree. But if there are 4 people arranging a game for a week or two and they say from the start: no proxies, because big game – and this one guy still comes at the moment of the game: „hey guys I have a proxy, I hope you don’t mind“ – I tell you, we mind.

        • frank

          didn’t say anything like that in the previous post just that he peroxided stuff and had nice armies. someone who doesn’t inform you what they are using with their proxies is different than some one who proxies their models the should be clear what they are using. I didn’t misunderstand you and if you forget that he has different guns than are on the model that is your problem more than his. why hadn’t he been firing the multi-meltas he told you about that vehicles weapons, its not really using proxies his minis are just not WYSYWIG. Sounds more like an intentionally dishonest player who is cheating but, proxies are the problem I guess and not the intentional deception right?

  • ZeeLobby

    I love playing actual models, but have no issue allowing proxies of the actual size of the replaced models. As long as there aren’t too many proxies. I have no issues with a player wanting to try a model before shelling out $140, especially if that’s a significant chunk of their income.

    • euansmith

      It can be more cost effective to wait until someone else buys the kit you are interested in, and then just nick theirs. It has the added bonus of coming assembled and painted.

      • ZeeLobby

        Haha. True. Our group suffers from minimal overlap though. Everyone has “their armies” (I know, shocking we don’t all play space marines :P), so the chance of that happening is pretty slim. Otherwise we definitely would.

        • euansmith

          Maybe it is time for you to change your army then? Have a look around the club and see what catches your eye. 😉

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Change my eye for the soul purpose to borrow models? Hope this is a classic euansmith joke ;D.

          • euansmith

            Borrowing “models” think bigger, young student. The path of larceny is like a finger pointing at the Moon. If you people are focusing on the finger, they won’t spot you loading their complete army cases in to your car. 😉

          • ZeeLobby

            OOOOOOO. I understand sensei!

      • Matthew Pomeroy

        its insult to injury if you have to point out which ones they need to buy or to complain about mold lines 😀

        • euansmith

          😀 😀 😀

  • Arthfael

    Also with themed armies always ask the question what they do to immersion. Your opponent may be ok playing against slightly weird 3rd party Slaanesh models (he, to each his kinks), but not against a whole army of guard sporting my-little-pony heads.

  • Kabal1te

    There is one type of proxy that no one is commenting on that pimpcron doesn’t bring up either. 3d printed proxies. As someone that owns more than one 3d printer and knows what they are doing o have gotten away with some 3d printed bits no one has noticed. Whole 3d printed models however people tend to spot as being somehow off, no matter how good your finishing is. Still looks like whatever, has the right weapons, but way way cheaper than the genuine article.

    • Pimpcron

      That would be under the category of proxying to be cheap. Generally frowned on. But if it is a spot-on print most people won’t say anything.

      • Kabal1te

        The interesting thing for me is what happens when the printers capable of making models that can’t be distinguished from the real ones get cheaper. They exist, just they cost 6-10 thousand dollars US or more. When you can’t tell 3d print from injection mold does anyone care (other than GW and their profit margin) and why? GW I am sure has worries about this too because I personally believe in less than 10 years time 3d printers will become much more common as costs come down ease of use improves.

        • Pimpcron

          A serious concern. I have no special love for corporations, but if we stop buying they go out of business and we don’t get new editions to our game.

          • Kabal1te

            Agreed. I don’t foresee GW doing well just publishing rule books and not making money on models. Even if the dynamic shifts where they sell the 3d print files for money should printers become that main stream it would be a huge revenue loss. Hero forge has already started doing this. Don’t know how well it is working for them though.

          • HeadHunter

            At that point, GW has to finally explore ways to remain competitive, rather than remaining the proverbial 800-pound gorilla that can charge what it wants.
            Even Bill Gates has acknowledged that someday, an enterprising kid in a garage can come along and design something that puts him out of business. It’s how many of the world’s largest companies were born.
            Maybe someone at GW is giving that some thought right now, so that they can be ready when the winds of change start blowing, instead of waiting to react until it’s too late.

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          I’ve seen papercraft that looks like an official model. Very skilled artist and he made the rhinos and Drop Pods he wanted for his army from paper. When you have more time and skill than money… I can’t even imagine how amazing things will be when 3d printing becomes more commonplace.

  • bryan morgan

    This is an expensive hobby. You can’t play if you don’t have the money. Did you get paid to write this?

    • Pimpcron

      Did you actually read the article?

      • bryan morgan

        Yes, i did. I found your points interesting. Why are you offended? Did you get paid to write the article? Pretty simple question.
        I could of just replied, did you think before you sent me this reply, but i didn’t. So, did you get paid to write the article?

        • Pimpcron

          No, GW did not pay me to say this. Lol. I am not offended, it’s just that many people don’t read and just comment. I didn’t quite understand where you were going with the comment, so it seemed a bit off to me. Usually when a comment seems a bit off, the person didn’t read the article. This is a common thing. The first part of your comment seems to agree with me but more strict on WYSIWYG, then the last sentence doesn’t seem to be going the same direction. I didn’t understand.

  • Phreshy

    Long live Cubes of Tzeentch.

  • Legitimancer

    I’d play against a box of pogs if the person playing them was a good time, over a perfectly painted WAC players force. It’s cooler when the game is pretty, but if I’m spending hours playing pretend army men with someone, how much fun they are to be around is my main concern.

  • Drpx

    Just want to point out all minis are proxies by default.

    • Pimpcron

      Lol. I guess you’re right.

  • Davis Centis

    I have only one issue with my own proxies; I bought a Baneblade before the Orks got a real Battlewagon model, and then I Ork’d it up with extra random plates and extra models (I got two Deffkoptaz with the helicopter blades removed on swivelling magnets to represent my 4 Rokkit Launchas). This is my Ork Battlewagon, and it’s glorious. It’s also massive.

    However, among friends, when I play it (still haven’t had a game of 8th with or against Orks – weird), I still play it as a Battlewagon, and it passes the rule of cool. However, from a size perspective, yes, it is much larger. In 8th edition, with so little LOS blocking terrain, I can see how this model might get some stares and groans, but what else am I supposed to do with a model I invested significant time and money into?

    • Pimpcron

      Yeah, I still have my many Nid proxies form before they models for those units. But they are kitbashed and look like what they should look like.

  • euansmith

    If Proxying you is wrong, I don’t wanna be right.

  • Commissar Molotov

    I say that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a cheap bastard. If you field third party zombie models because they’re a tenth of the price of Gee Dub Poxwalkers and they’re the right scale, then it’s FINE. If you take dollar store toy trucks and Orkify them into Ork Trukks, it’s FINE. If you take an old G.I. Joe tank and manage to make it look like a Baneblade with a smattering of Gee Dub vehicle bits, it’s FINE.

    Heck, some of us old farts had to fill in the gaps in our armies before the darned models were even available. For example, I have a dozen scratch-built Spore Pods – I ain’t gonna junk ’em just so I can buy hundreds of dollars worth of Tyrannocytes from Gee Dub.

    • Pimpcron

      I have custom tomb blades, spore pods, harpies, etc from before they made models too. I won’t junk them and still use them. Not in tournies, but I will still play fun games with them. I think zombies would be a good proxy for pox walkers too. Just make sure it follows the rules I laid out and it is generally acceptable. Otherwise don’t be cheap just to be cheap.

  • marxlives

    Ya, this is a good common sense article. If a player is new and interested in trying out the game or if someone is testing a model before buying, then I don’t mind proxy in an informal environement. The different wargear stuff doesn’t come into play with games like Warmachine/Malifuax/Dark Age where units have cards with fixed stats but in 40k/Infinity/Deadzone where customization is very granular, yes that would be very VERY annoying to me. If you want to say your model has frag grenades and not smoke grendages, that is cool. But the weapons must be same. It is just being courteous to your opponent. Same thing with painting. From 4 feet away I don’t know what all that flash and grey plastic is supposed to represent.

    Our hobby is neat because it is a union of aesthetics and function. You can look at a unit and know what it basically does. I don’t care if its imperial guardsmen or winterguard riflemen. If it has the right weapons and paint job, I can see it from 4 feet away and easily identify what the model is and what it does in a general way.

    I don’t see why people don’t have painted models or poor proxy’s in today’s wargaming climate. With so many options between large scale, skirmish, painted, and pre-painted and tournament systems for each game type there really isn’t a reason to not have good looking games.

  • SiberianVI

    Lion ‘El Johnson could not be here because proxies were not allowed.
    but on the proxy front, proxies for tournament play should be easily distinguishable if you are using more than one. like my conscript army. 300 guys with muskets= conscripts, the nine third party lascannons are lascannons, and the napoleon x model is the warlord. when you proxy for theme you should make sure the the theme does not get in the way of distinguishment.

    • Pimpcron

      I’m gonna miss Lion El Johnson when you stop doing it. lol. All good points though.

    • HeadHunter

      I don’t even like the phrase “proxies for tournament play”. If you can’t bring the model, don’t compete. Save proxies for informal games. “This is really a…” doesn’t cut it. No, this is “really” something else.
      I’m not a tournament player, before anyone deep strikes to conclusions – I just think that in a tournament, either bring the right models or don’t put them in your list.

  • Chris Hilliard

    I proxy weapons all the time on my Battlesuits. But I also tend to run the entire unit with the same load out, so there’s no need to remember who has what.

  • frank

    I love proxies they make the hobby element of the game more interesting to me. I use zoats for my Harlequin bikes they don’t really save me any money to use them but I make clear what they are when I put them on the table.
    I get that some people like to see all Gw minis but Its annoying to see some people getting way bent out of shape cuz someone is playing with something they made from scratch. My scratch built wraith knights are some of my favorite minis I use. Guess its all preferences but, I tend to find old school players in my local area like the proxies I use-make as where more recent players tend to look on them with disdain.
    Funny enough making the stuff I know I can do well is the fun part for me and with Gw making big minis more often everything is getting bigger and more expensive it is easier for me to sculpt it myself and be proud of the work, than to justify the price to buy it. #poorhammer

  • Nick Linc

    No mention of the Papercraft proxies (including ol’ donghead in the hero image)?!? I love seeing well made paper craft model on the table!

  • evilamericorp

    As the owner of that particular Hrud model… I mostly played them as Eldar

  • Spacefrisian

    Until you see a 2k army made from 1 box of nightgoblins being used as a assassin proxy army…

  • Free as a Pass Rusher against

    A friend and I used to play WFB using movement trays with tape on them stating which unit they were and the numbers. The worst part is that we actually owned the armies, but lived across the street from each other and got tired of packing and unpacking hundreds of guys.

    As for weapon proxies, I suppose I do that fairly often. My Word Bearer army is built primarily as a 30k force, so I have sergeants generally equipped with power fists, and squads armed with both bolters and chainswords, which were removed as an option for CSM and Chosen squads in 8th. I’ve also used a squad of Volkite Calivers as Plasma Guns, but I’m not sure my opponent even realized they weren’t actually plasma.

  • Nilok

    The only proxies I use are also the best replacements for my large Tau Battlesuits in my giant robots such as Gurren Lagann and Gundam Heavy Arms simply because they look awesome and can have the pose changed between games (never in the middle of one aside from swiveling the waist).

    The Revoltech Gurren Lagann looks awesome, is the perfect size for a Riptide, can have the original’s weapons attached to it, and is not cheaper than the GW version.

    • Pimpcron

      Doesn’t sound bad at all.

  • helter266

    im gonna cut out and glue that terminator

  • GHOSTvirus

    You have not lived until you hear the words. This pencil case is an land raider. Or my favorite ever in an pretty well painted army I dont have enought hormaguants so just know that I split them into ten man squads but there are actually twenty in each squad….sooo just treat them as two wound hormaguants. And that was in an tourney…sigh

    • Pimpcron

      That is totally unacceptable in a tourney.

  • GHOSTvirus

    Heh no actually the best was the keeper of sectrets that was just an barbi doll…hahah hand bag and all. But to that players credit he did take all his wifes barbis and did some awsome conversions. Slaneshi soul grinders in high heels and comable hair. Actually worked really well.

  • lee payne

    I created my own hive fleet and due to new rules I have to have them as a splinter fleet in order to gain traits and other upgrades. I have chosen kraken and plan to stick to it and have wrote it in to my background story. Is this considered as proxying

    • Pimpcron

      No, you had no control over that and all nids players including myself have to deal with that now. I had to edit backstory of my fleet too.

  • Jennifer Burdoo

    You haven’t discussed proxy rules. Back in the 3rd edition days I’d been reading about the ACW and considered building an IG regiment of non-Ratling snipers, the 2nd Berdan Sharpshooters.

    I would have used the Alaitoc Craftworld rules to represent them. Rangers for sniper squads, Pathfinders for “leading snipers”, and War Walkers with missile launchers and brightlances for sniper-Sentinels with missile launchers and lascannons. I was quickly talked out of it on the grounds that if I wanted this, I should play Alaitoc Eldar with appropriate models instead.

    Another idea I had was for an all-Scout Space Marine army, with Land Speeders and tanks for a WWII feel. I themed it as an Inquisitorial “Build-a-Better-Stormtrooper” project; with hindsight something along the lines of Imperial Armour’s “enhanced Inquisitorial Elysian” unit might have worked.