40k – Counts-as?
Counts-as…the rage of the Internet is palpable but is it really that bad? fester (in place of Kirby) takes a look at the ins and outs of counts-as armies and looks at this contentious issue from both sides.
G’day everybody. My name is fester and I am one of the many minions working for Kirby over on the Pink Side. I started writing for Kirby with my “Crazy Ideas” series. I am the guy that people come to when they need help fleshing an idea out for, you guessed it, counts-as armies. Kirby asked me to write this as there has been a lot of discussion on it lately highlighted by this post here.
[Cue the hate]
Before we get into this discussion, let me start by saying a few things. Firstly, there is a great debate going on in the community about Counts-As, and I am very strongly in the “for” camp. The reasons for this are going to be explained in this article, but I want to have a bit of a thought about the “against” first.
Why Counts-As ruins it for everyone.
What I find is that most people who dislike counts-as have one of the following reasons for disliking it:
1. It’s always just another unprimed, plastic grey army hopping codexes/codices based on what is the current flavor of the month, or what is seen to be the powerhouse codex.
I 100% agree that this is crap. I personally hate when people do this. That’s right, I am on your side. This isn’t Counts-As as far as I am concerned. This is what I term as “proxying”. Proxying models is fine when you are trying out a list, learning, painting, or developing your skills. The issue is that this type of “counts-as” playing seems to come from a certain type of player, that never actually gets any further than “the guy with the blue blob of paint on his head has a plasma gun this game”.
2. It is limited to only Space Marine codices.
Us poor Xenos players seem to get shafted on this front. You own Chaos Demons, that’s all they will ever be. Any Space Marine can be any other Space Marine. Red, Blue, Grey, Green, Yellow, Black, Red/Yellow, Silver, whatever, they are still at their base level, Space Marines.
I actually agree (to a point) with this as well. The Space Marine armies get it so much easier than everyone else when it comes to Counts-As. They simply are easier to implement because it takes so much less thought to make it work.
Also, with the ability of players to use Pre-Heresy chapters or create custom chapters that may emulate what they want, the lines between codexes/codices will tend to blur. Building a “fluffy” Ultramarines Army from the Assault Marines Company (8th from memory) can only really be acheived via the use of the Blood Angels book, though the Ultramarines “own” the Vanilla Marine Codex. However, putting a painted and modelled Ultramarines army down on the table and saying “Blood Angels” will get your throat cut.
Depending on who you talk to, the different codices have different power levels. Taking an army from a codex that is “less powerful” to one that is “more powerful” is one of the things players hate. The issue with this is simple – who decides what is “more powerful”? Space Wolves (many people’s personal hate) have lots of cool toys, but some severe Leadership Issues on their basic troops. They also have lots of special rules which combo’d correctly are powerful, but when combo’d incorrectly fall flat on their face. This is an understandable issue. This isn’t to say they are a bad book but they aren’t ‘perfect’ by any means.
I personally don’t think it is that big of an issue, as whatever codex jump you are making, you will lose out on something particular. Chaos Space Marines lose the Marks of Chaos, Space Marines lose LD9, Combat Tactic and some particular unit selections (Attack Bikes for instance), Blood Angels lose DoA, Black Templar lose Preferred Enemy and 2 Heavys in Terminator squads, Dark Angels (now) lose Stormshield/Cyclone Deathwing Troops, Space Wolves lose Counter-Attack and the new GK’s will lose out on Psycannons if you go away from them. In making a codex change you need to see “what you lose”, as opposed to just “what you gain”.
Think of this, in a recent NOVA Style Event I ran (5 rounds, no comp), the top 4 armies were Tyranids, Tyranids, Orks, Blood Angels, in that order. Who says Space Wolves are the new “broken” huh?
Kirby – “not much I’m afraid fester, other than those players were the best on the day. Hell, I’d of even expanded out to the top 10 which was 3 Tyranids and one each of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Space Marines, Daemonhunters, Orks, Tau and Imperial Guard. One day Messanger of Death might write that tournament validity report for me…”
Also in the end, who cares if you are moving to a better codex if it fits your fluff/army background? Night Lords for example are much more easily represented in terms of a pure Jumper army with Blood Angels than Chaos Space Marines (my raptors aren’t Troops? *sad*). Thousand Sons (either pre- or post-heresy) don’t exactly have a ton of choice in the CSM book either thanks to the changes by Gav Thorpe yet the Grey Knight codex with it’s plethora of psychic powers seems like a good choice. These are both examples of obviously better books but if the individual has put in the time and effort (see some of the links) and everything is WYSIWYG, good on them. I think it’s when this is combined with the above problems you discussed that things really become an issue (this Grey Marine is now a Grey Knight! no an Assault Marine! Long Fang?).
Good Counts-as
So let us take a journey into the demented mind of a “proppa” counts-as player. In order to make a “proppa” counts-as army, you need to assess what the goal of the army is. A true counts-as army is not just having a bucket of marines you can use in any codex. A true counts-as army is planned, built, painted and loved as much as any other army. Side note: a Counts-as army shouldn’t be your first army, it should be at the earliest, your second, as the work involved is significant to make everything actually come together.
Some of the best examples of this on the internet (in my opinion) are (and all the pictures seen throughout this post are taken from both of these places!):
Tyracrons
Kabal of the Fursaken
And this got added by Kirby because well it’s from the Pink blog:
Vinsanity’s Night Lords
You can see what the creators have done here is take a concept, build it fully to match the theme of the army or the rules of the army that they are trying to emulate and have succeeded. My first post on 3++ was thinking along these lines. I had just finished reading the Horus Heresy Novel about the Dark Angels pre-Unification. I was thinking that this army would be amazing as a modelling concept, and if done correctly, amazing on the tabletop.
The answer was simple – Space Marine Bikers using Bretonnian models.
What is your take on this? How many of you just thought “I have a box of old Bretonnians around here somewhere?”
My current thoughts for a counts-as army are actually even more left field than this. All you Ork players (I know you are out there) have read the codex back-to-back, a hundred times. There was always a story that leapt out to me – Zagstruk and the Vulcha Boyz. I find myself wanting to make an army of Vulcha Boyz, but the codex just doesn’t make it feasible. The drop-strike style of combat doesn’t fit within the Ork Codex. The army that does suit? Blood Angels. Zagstruk, StormBoyz, Deffkoptas (3 deffkoptas in a squadron = 1 Landspeeder) and Fighta Bommas (Stormravens). So now I am using Orks in a Space Marine Codex. What is your take on this?
As you can see, I have only been touching initially on the Space Marine codexes/codices. I spoke earlier about all the ease of making an army with the Space Marine models and rules. This is because they are the most prominent codices/codexes. They get the most PR and the most love. Let’s look at some other codices:
Tyranids: Think about any fluff-based technology or ability that can that can bring in more troops. In these examples you are building on the rules for the Tervigon and the essence of what it can do on the tabletop.
– Tellyporta Orks (Nazdreg?), Necromancers / Chaos IG, Chaos Demons with “Warp Rifts”, etc.
Tau: Mecha with skimmers, lots of firepower and some units purely to be eaten by the other guys.
Adeptus Mechanicus is the first thought that I had when I was considering Tau.
Eldar: Fast, specialist, deadly
Sisters of Silence fit this build to my mind.
Dark Eldar: Fast, specialist, deadly, Ruthless
Kroot Mercenaries – Just think about a Raider modelled up to be a Kroot-styled transport. Power from Pain? How do Kroot evolve?
Chaos Demons
Cubes of Tzeentch
Necrons
Anything automaton, Necromantic (ala Tomb Kings)
As you can see, there is more to the Counts-As argument than just “Let’s use the Space Wolves Codex ahahahahaa!”. The true issue with Counts-as is simply identifying what model is what in a fast and acceptable way in a tournament environment. In a friendly environment, at the FLGS, mates house, whatever, there should be a decision beforehand on whether or not the counts-as army comes out of the box. What is acceptable to your group of players also will effect whether or not the Counts-As idea is suitable.
One last final thing: The reason the Space Wolves Codex gets a lot of Count-as time is two-fold.
1. The internet thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread
2. Thunderwolf Cavalry make for awesome conversions, such as Black Templar Mounted Knights and Khorne Lords on Juggernaughts
If you want to bounce ideas off fester, you can contact him on [email protected] and he will happily help you thrash out ideas to make the most of your Counts-As army. Speak up folks…
