40K Rules: How to Stop 40K’s 1+ Roll

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If you worried about Iron Hands players going Super Saiyan with a 1+ Feel no Pain, you definitely want to see how to beat it.

 

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What jerks!

While it’s true that the Iron hands can get an astonishing 1+ FNP roll, there are a few things that not only negate it, but straight render it useless in general.

Checkout these tips smart generals are using to beat down the unstoppable roll!

PsychicCards

1). Enfeeble – The psychic power from Biomancy has the potential to make all your strength 6 and higher attacks all cause auto death as they will not be double the toughness of a Space Marine at T3 while enfeebled. Remember you can not take Feel No Pain rolls on anything that causes Instant Death (or is double the models toughness)

 

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2). Instant Death – This age old mechanic has the potential to just straight wreck 1+ FNP. Remember to activate force on weapons with it, and lob those S8+ weapons were they need be to negate the effects of that Feel no Pain!

 

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3). Give them The D – While it never gets old to say that, neither will wrecking models that are hiding behind a 1+ FNP with a weapon that has the Destroyer Special Rule!

 

There you have it, three quick and easy ways to get around ridiculous feel no pain shenanigans!

What’s your favorite 40K rule that almost no one remembers on the tabletop?

  • kaptinscuzgob

    a roll of a 1 is always a fail

    • Parthis

      Exactly. And any IH players who insist no longer get games. Any tournament that allows it isn’t a tournament.

      • Anon

        Check your rules. The Crushing Weight of the Typhon tank cannot fail thanks to the +1, this was confirmed by Forge World

        • Parthis

          Re-read. Also Crushing Weight isn’t a save.

          Point remains; anyone who insists on 1+ FnP isn’t going to get games and isn’t going to be doing it at tournaments.

          • Anon

            FNP is not a save word by word. But yes, I get your point, that kid of player is obnoxious. Just pointing out that not all rolls of 1 fail.

            And the competence of GW rules writing department whe it comes to this kind of exploitable rules.

          • Valeli

            It’s beyond obnoxious. They’re doing something clearly not intended. It’s not even an argument over wording that’s worth my time. If someone wants to do this, they can go play with someone else who sees things there way.

            … It will be interesting to find out if that game ever gets past turn four with all the non-stop bickering I’m sure those two will have.

          • Charon

            FnP is no save either.

          • Spacefrisian

            Well its a roll you roll after you fail a save, so you are trying to save a model from becomming a casualty…oh look lots of fancy words making it look like a saving roll.

          • Charon

            Oh look it is still allowed to roll FnP if no saves of any kind are permitted.
            Oh look the FnP rule explicitly states it is no save

            When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state that ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’, for example those inflicted by Perils of the Warp).

            How about you actually read the rules you want to discuss instead of making things up?

          • DeusXenith

            Rulebook specifically states that an FnP roll is not a saving throw.

            That’s why librarians can take FnP against perils, but not armour or invuns.

          • Charon

            Just imagine the angry nerds that would break lose if FnP was an save and could be rerolled over psipowers. Anyone fancy to fight the 2+/3++/2+ FnP rerolling captain?

          • Muninwing

            yes. it’s a save. but it isn’t.

            it works like one, but can still be used outside of save rules.

          • Fancy word like “feel no pain is not a saving throw”

            I see how that is confusing.

            While I hate the idea of FNP 1+, RAW it is allowed. Really needs an FAQ

          • Samuel Sanchez

            there are several contradictory sections in the rules that go back and forth on this. There are several sections in the rules that call it a “FNP save” and some that just call it FNP.

          • Charon

            Quote?

          • Samuel Sanchez

            Destroyer rules for one. It directly states “feel no pain saves” may not be taken against destroyer attacks.

            The rules writing is stupid. They state FNP rolls are not a save in the FNP rules and then call it a save in several other places.

          • Charon

            If it was a save… can you reroll it with powers that allow you to reroll saves or are the sampe people that claim “FnP is a save!” jumping in claiming that you “can’t reroll FnP because it is no save!” ?

          • Samuel Sanchez

            Depends on the wording of the reroll if it specifies armor saves no if it is worded like fateweaver or ork runt and allows you to reroll any die then yes.

          • Charon

            Priest hymn allows you to reroll SAVES for example. So I dont think a 1+ FnP (which in reality is a 4+ FnP on a D6+3) is worse than a 2+/3++/FnP 2+ character that may reroll all saves.

          • Samuel Sanchez

            I play ig I’m just working right now so I can’t look it up but I believe it specifies armour and invul somewhere. However in your second point a 2+ reroll save is a 1 in 36 chance of failure a 1+ saves is zero failure chance that’s significant enough to say it’s much worse.

          • Charon

            Not really as the 1/36 chance is easily obtainable while the 1+ save is a specific path that only works in 33% of all games.

          • jdub

            ap2 doesnt matter for fnp….

          • Samuel Sanchez

            Reread what you replied to we were talking about 2+ rerollable saves

          • Samuel Sanchez

            Actually I forgot the iPhone now can see the digital codex. Priest hymn specify armor and invulnerable saves are allowed a reroll.

          • Muninwing

            FNP isn’t a save either. explicitly.

            the odds of getting this to happen are low, the ways of killing it are many, and the overreactions people here have had about it are ridiculous.

          • Insert_nickname_here

            But one model in one army might have a chance of getting it for a ridiculous amount of points!

        • Forge World ≠ Games Workshop

    • Charon

      Wrong. First of all not every roll of 1 is a fail (characteristic tests for example, 1 means a success and 6 is a fail) and secondly FnP boni mostly add to your dice roll so you actually can’t score a 1.

      • Samuel Sanchez

        Actually depends FNP modifiers actually are worded poorly some are die modifiers and some straight out say a roll of 5+ passes. The last one makes no indication it modifies the die.

        • Charon

          Both do exist. I agree. Most boni just add on the dice roll while the USR itself gives a number to beat.
          Gorgons chain gives +1 to the roll, WL trait add +1 to the roll, Chapter tactics add +1 to the roll (unless you do not have any, then it becomes FnP 6+), Psi power grants FnP (4+) So basically you have to beat FnP 4+ with D6+3

    • MajorSoB

      I agree but a 2+ with a FNP save is almost as miserable to face. Either one leads to a rotten game.

    • spikeybits

      If you could please point that out on what page it’s on I would greatly appreciate it.

    • HadronFlux

      Except for Aun’Va that saves based on AP of a weapon and AP1 is an auto pass?

      • kaptinscuzgob

        because that rule states its an autopass as a specific exception

  • Parthis

    No one was worried about this; because no one does it.

    • Muninwing

      i played M:tG before WH. back in the unlimited/revised days, and through Ice Age.

      at one point i realized that if i could land a 3-card combo a decent way into a game, i’d win pretty much automatically (barring any shenanigans from blue). an artifact that dealt 2 points of damage for each lost land, a card that destroyed all lands, and either a protection from damage from artifacts, or a spell that healed me for each point of damage i took from one source.

      i played a lot of group games. it was a way to kill everyone at once. an if i loaded up on defensive stuff, i could last until i got the needed cards. 3 doesn’t seem like too big a deal.

      it only happened twice, and i’d play 5-8 games a week depending, and i played that deck for over a year before getting bored and moving on to something else.

      this was my “ultimate win” combo. by the time it happened, i was having fun with the defensive castle-building deck (in one game, i had 4 Castles for +0/+8 to all creatures, and three Crusades for +3/+3, meaning my weakest creatures were 4/12s…). but the “rapture” win i wanted to witness took months to ever actually come up in my hand.

      the 1+FNP isn’t quite as rare, but it’s not this huge deal as they are making it here. it might happen for a couple rounds, but then again there are ways of dealing with it.

      it’s actually the IWND rolls the same character gets, and the T5 on a bike, that make it ridiculous. those are more reliable, and those are what make this particular HW such a beast to deal with.

  • benn grimm

    So basically one way (instant death) split to look like three ways? There’s an even better way to beat this; just don’t play the kind of muppet who thinks you can get a 1 plus save, easy…

    • Anon

      Eternal Warrior negates Instant Death, which negates Instant death; not to mention that this popular combo has the chapter master running on a bike with a blob of ablative mooks.

      Want to solve this? Simple, wound that sucker with a hellfrost weapon or stomp him with a superheavy. RAW the fnp save does not count to negate the second effect of the Hellfrost.

      Or refuse to play with the iron hands as you stated it, you’re in all your right to do so just as the other player has to bring 1+ FNP, 2++ rerollable demonspam and eldar D saturation.

      • benn grimm

        Good point on the eternal warrior chapter master, makes it even more silly.

      • Charon

        Eternal Warrior does not negate the ID rule. Read it again.

        • Parthis

          This is true – taking a wound with the ID rule stops you from rolling FnP.

          EW simply stops the *effects* of ID, i.e. losing all your wounds. The special rule is still in place on the attack, meaning no FnP.

          • Anon

            I stand corrected, thank good sir! After doing a quick search on the rules book I noticed that while Eternal Warrior negates all the effects of Instant Death, reducing it to a simple wound, Fell No Pain cannot be taken in this condition because the rule prohibits itself from activating.

            So, force and S:10 shots are viable once more.

    • Morollan

      Firstly, you can get a 1+ FNP roll (but not a save). Secondly, why is someone a muppet simply because they followed the rules of the game and invested heavily in a slim chance of achieving this on a unit with little offensive output? Seems more like those who are unable to grasp a relatively simple rules concept or the simple counters to it should be considered muppets. Lastly, which other rules of the game should not be used because you don’t like them?

      • benn grimm

        Call it what you want, its obvious to everyone else what it actually is. If you play in tourneys i wouldn’t count on being allowed to run this, if you only play with mates and they are fine with it, then you have no problem. i wouldn’t play you, but then I doubt you’d want to play me either.

        We grasp it, we just don’t consider it to be a big deal, just a fairly usual case of bad rules writing combo’ed with rules written for different editons, combo’ed with being a powergaming jerk who actively exploits loopholes instead of going; ‘hey man, have you seen this?’ ‘yeah thats pretty dumb’.

        Lastly; mysterious objectives and maelstrom missions. I dont like ’em and I’d rather not play ’em. If thats not for you then wonderful, we’ve already established that we probably wouldn’t enjoy playing each other anyway and now we know for sure.

        • Morollan

          That at least is true. Anyone who thinks they can just unilaterally ignore any rule they don’t like is not someone I’d want to play against.

          • benn grimm

            You clearly missed the ‘we’ part; does that suggest unilateral action to you? I play a social game with other people, I play with a good attitude(like the other people I play with) and I’m incredibly flexible, I just have no interest in playing people like you, who deliberately and doggedly miss the point.

          • Morollan

            I must have missed the part where I said that I’d use this combo myself. I would however have no issue with anyone else who wanted to. I certainly wouldn’t call them rude names like some of you lot have.

            It’s legal, hard to get, easy to counter and of very little use due to the low offensive output of the recipient unit. I’d happily play against it and, as I don’t play Iron Hands, would not be using it myself.

          • Koonitz

            Low offensive output? It requires two independent characters, which can then attach to any other squad. Let’s say, for instance, a chapter master, librarian, and fully manned honour guard squad.

            You now have a chapter master with 4 base attacks, capable of getting 5 (as the wargear in question does not preclude +1 attacks for two CCW), a 2+/3++/1+FNP, a librarian with possibly 3 attacks with a force weapon, 2+(Terminator armor)/5++/3+FNP), and 10 bodies with 2+/3+FNP, all with minimum power weapons and 3 attacks base.

            Add a chapter banner, that’s an extra 12 attacks, all with minimum power weapon statline.

            Then charge with them, an extra 12 attacks.

            Low offensive output?

          • Charon

            For the same points you probably a Full squad of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon who just melt this While still having enough points left to buy another WK.

          • An_Enemy

            So your solution is to just play Eldar? Much like a poster above that said, “just use hellfrost.”

            These solutions are not universal. Pretending that it’s just that easy is silly.

          • Charon

            Against Space Marines? Yes.. you should play Eldar, Crons, Space Marines (of any flavor) or Daemonkin. All other codices have bigger problems with the power level difference than the one model anyways.

        • AdeptusAstartes

          Why make the assumption it’s bad rules writing, and not assume it’s intended because it fits the fluff? Iron Hands believe the flesh is weak, they augment themselves to enable them to survive in battle, they achieve the seemingly impossible and can survive any attack that would kill a normal model … you don’t get to kill the Terminator with a bullet, but nobody complains.

          • benn grimm

            Basically due to precedent, In 15 plus years of playing this game there has never been an un-failable save, a save which is a lot like a save, but not or otherwise. Yes there are auto pass tests; armour penetration etc and there are rolls that auto fail; to wound etc. There are/have been multiple instances of BRB psychic powers having ‘unusual’ interactions with other special rules, so its nothing new in that regard.

            If they had intended the fnp roll to be improvable to a 1 plus, I feel they would have made this explicit, as it is, it is far from being so. It is also a fairly dubious combo of psychic power, chapter tactic, wargear and relic. It is possible firstly, that they didn’t forsee the combo, it is also possible that the effects which are interpreted as cumulative are also not intended to work thus, merely they are a repeat statement of a lesser save.

            RAI is always a bit dubious, but I think there are some things which are so blatantly silly that its just best to play them in the way which seems best to fit with the rest of the game and people playing it. If you read the ITC faq, you quickly begin to realise how much work actually goes into trying to fill in the gaps in the rules. I don’t agree with every ruling, but I like the consensus, saves unnecessary bickering.

            Oh, and you can totally kill a termi with a bullet, if you get really, really lucky and hit him at just the right angle in the eye or something…)

          • AdeptusAstartes

            Just wanted to add my 25 years experience playing this game to quickly (got kids, and it’s a Saturday!) input that the unfailable save has been around before – Terminator armour in 2nd (or 1st depending upon your viewpoint) edition was on a 2d6 roll and could be improved to 2+ (limited circumstances, and I’m sure some of the grenades and wargear in Dark Milllenium gave a +1 modifier to saving throws! – just can’t find my books at the minute).

            I’ve also been told by GW peeps that they played a lot of other rule sets when developing 6th and 7th Edition, and their influence has crept in (and in some cases was encouraged to creep in, so I’m told). So the intention behind combos, and the possibility for the unfailable save, and other auto-results, was being encouraged during development. They wanted a rules framework that would permit almost limitless flexibility.

            Whilst apparently revoltionary in it’s absence of points, I think Age of Sigmar is the natural evolution of that thinking.

          • benn grimm

            Lol, busy day then!) Yeah termi armour was hard as nails in the old days, but there were negative modifiers on armour saves back then so it wasn’t such a big deal. that said there was some pretty crazy stuff around (vortex grenades, 2 plus inv power fields etc, so yeah you’re absolutely right, its always been a game of extremes and some brokenness.

            That’s interesting, 6th seemed to me to be a return to the days of 2nd, conceptually if not mechanically, 7th seems hell bent on shoehorning epic into 40k. It’s good to know they had something in mind other than just frying our brains with all the new special rules interactions.)

            On the last point is where we differ the most, for me the lack of points in AOS just kills so many things; list building, balanced scenario writing and biggest of all (for me)any interest in sustained army building, to be considered anything other than evolutionary dead end.

        • pskontz

          I agree with everything but maelstrom (I like that) but +1 for everything else

          • benn grimm

            Cheers, tbh it was more an example of something in the rules I don’t regularly use if I can help it, certainly wouldn’t turn down a game over it, I have a mate who really likes em and I’ll play ’em with him every now n then.

          • pskontz

            a friend said it best. IT makes turns 2-5 matter. sometimes you get screwed with a bad card. but same can be said for a dice roll or any other thing. (though we do house rule can replace impossible missions)

      • Lutharr

        there is a large difference between using the rules and exploiting the rules. Just like there is laws that allow evil mofo’s to escape justice due to loopholes.

        Technically the law is the law and rules are rules. But dont be suprised if people think your a dick for exploiting them.

        • benn grimm

          This.

          • Morollan

            It’s hardly an exploit. It is very costly, relies on two lucky dice rolls (warlord trait and psychic power) to even have a chance of working, is hard to pull off even if you get those dice rolls (relying on casting a single psychic power is always risky), it’s easy to counter and is used to buff one model defensively in a unit that is hardly brimming with offensive power. I have zero issues with anyone wanting to use this in a game and if you do have issues then maybe you should be looking at your own ability to cope with the unexpected in a game rather than accusing other people of being dicks or muppets.

      • AdeptusAstartes

        It depends upon your approach to the game, but I think you’ve answered your own question as to why they’re a muppet … “invested heavily in a slim chance of achieving this on a unit with little offensive output” … in my other hobby we call this ‘target fixation’, when you lose sight of everything else and just keep on heading for that target without due regard to the consequences. Splat!

      • An_Enemy

        It’s not a slim chance. It’s actually pretty easy to get since they put Librarius Conclave in the game.

  • House rule it away.

    Tournaments won’t allow this either.

    Problem solved, carry on hobbying peoples! 🙂

    • Spacefrisian

      Yup next problem, Invisibility…i sometimes wish there was a dispel psychic power so i could remove it.

      • Pascalnz

        it’s called a cullexus assassin 🙂

      • benn grimm

        I’ve played in a couple of tourneys where its been nerfed so it reduces BS only, so you get them with blasts and templates and give them a good kicking in CC if you can catch them. Its still powerful, but no where near as bad.

        • ZeeLobby

          Template weapons should have always been a counter to it. If something’s invisible a flamer always helps…

          • Autumnlotus

            Unless it flies. helloooo Be’lakor

          • Djbz

            Wouldn’t that be kind of redundant?
            Most weapons only hit flyers on a 6 anyway…

          • Autumnlotus

            Naw its for Skyfire, and his shrouding gives him a 2+ cover save with no downside.

  • Malthrak

    So, it’s ID pretty much worded 3 different ways.

    Or better yet, we could just refuse to play against such absurdities and shut it down the right way 😉

  • MPSwift

    If an IH player wants to invest that heavily in getting a 1+ FNP roll then go for it. Just makes my target priority for my Vindicators, Arjac Wolf Guard unit, Dreadnoughts and helfrost weaponry that much easier 😉

    • highwind

      And then? Still gets his 1+ FnP because his Gorgons Chain cancels out the Instant Death?
      1+2 in the above article are just plain and simple wrong, neither double strength nor any other source of instant death (force weapon etc) disables the FnP roll when the target is immun to instant death

      • Morollan

        Actually they do. Eternal Warrior only negates the removal of all wounds from ID attacks. It does not alter the fact that the attack has the ID rule and therefore FNP cannot be used against it.

  • MajorSoB

    40K is a broken mess. Why does anyone still bother to play at this point?

    • Because nobody actually wants it to get replaced with an Age of Abaddon.

      • MajorSoB

        Well done sir. You just won the internet!

        • I dedicate my Internet Award to Games Workshop’s major shareholders and executive, without whom my comment would not have been possible.

          Thank you, guys, for your continued efforts to bring people together, talking not just about but also to their plastic figures. You’re incredible.

      • Benderisgreat

        Wouldn’t it be Age of Emprah?

    • benn grimm

      For fun?

      • MajorSoB

        Fun? Really? 1+ saves are fun? I guess so are visits to the dentist for root canals and doctor visits for prostate exams then huh?

        • Insert_nickname_here

          To be fair, what Mr Grimm seems to be suggesting in his previous comments is that most grown ups could see that this is an unintentional oversight and chose not to take the combination in the first place. It’s like many of these broken combinations, we all know they exist, they have always existed, but most of us will chose not to take them, because we understand that the game is supposed to be fun for both ourselves and our opponents.

          • AdeptusAstartes

            To my mind you just have to smile and get on with it. Auto results aren’t new, or limited to combos.

            I took a Nurgle Plague Marine list to a tournament a few years ago, nothing more killie than a Plasma Gun between them – and I ended up facing a Blood Angels list just after the 5th edition Codex release – deep striking Land Raiders a-go-go. We had a grand old Benny Hill scene going on as I manfully ran away from bright red Land Raiders … still only lost by 1 Objective!

        • effinger2

          Everyone that I know and play with thinks this +1 FNP is utterly NOT legal. Move along… nothing to see here.

          • Charon

            And your friends opinions (which are not backed up by any rule) do change the rules?
            Don’t get me wrong im all in about not using these things and communication and playing as your groups sees fit. But making a general statement without any evidence and making it look like a reserched fact is… strange?

        • benn grimm

          1 plus saves have never happened in any game of 40k i’ve played. As for the last two, luckily I’m yet to find out, I’m guessing not, but whatever floats your boat.

          • Charon

            1+ saves can’t happen. the rules do not allow them.

          • benn grimm

            Must be why they’ve never come up in any of my games then…

        • false-emperor

          GW would use two fingers, so you would get a second opinion…

          • MajorSoB

            I’m thinking GW would use their whole fist!

        • AdeptusAstartes

          Oh, com’on! You’re reacting like somebody just stuck an iron spike in your thigh. It’s a 1+ ‘save’, so what. Get in on the fun and make the guy roll his dice for his 1+ FnP, and if any are cocked then make him roll them again.

          Anything but a … oh wait …

    • Craig Biddulph

      Because they can’t afford to get into 30k.

      • Benderisgreat

        I dunno, as long as you have a swarm of Marines, 30k is just a matter of buying (or downloading) books and maybe a tank or two. Oh, and somehow getting a primarch, which isn’t impossible either.

        • Craig Biddulph

          I was being sarcastic. However, a swarm of plastic Marines do not make a 30k army.

    • Benderisgreat

      Everyone is too heavily invested in models and books?

  • BT

    So… the real question is did this just make +1 FNP rolls more popular by telling folks you can try to do this?
    Seriously, I am not sure I want to even look it up to see it is possible, but I bet more people looked it up to see if/how you can actually do it than worried about how to stop it.

    • Charon

      Nah it is hard to get to 1+ and you need the right rolls on random tables.
      The iron hands stupidity already stated when they had their Clan Raukaan with the gorgons chain and their +1 FnP warlord trait introduced.
      The other thing with FnP is that you have to read carefully. It actually never becomes a FnP (1+) but it is split up between increasinf your FnP and adding a number to your dice score.
      The iron hand chapter tactics gives you FnP (6+). If you already have FnP it adds 1 to your dice roll.
      So in reality (example) you never get FnP (2+) but rather FnP (5+) and you roll a dice and add +3 to the result.

      • BT

        And I take it this is on a select unit and possibly the Warlord only?

        • Charon

          Jep.
          You need a Psi Power (Endurance) for FnP 4+, Capter Tactics: Iron Hands for 3+, The Gorgons Chain (Artifact from Clan Rauukaan) for the 2+ and a Warlord trait for 1+
          So you need enough Librarians to have a good chance on Biomancy (which is inferior to divination or Telepathy) Endurance and you have a 1 in 6 chance (with a reroll if you are CAD) on the Warlord trait.
          Not really reliable.

          • BT

            Good

    • benn grimm

      Indeed and thats what really annoys me about MBG and this constant stream of articles on how to break the game. If you’re a new player, you might think that this is an acceptable, required even, part of the game. Its basically promoting being a d1ck.

      • jeff white

        true… we live at the tail end of a large combustion reaction, don’t mind that soot in your eye, it is just the ash of something that was beautiful.

  • Alessandro Azzone

    Still going on with this nosense, are you? A roll to 1 is always a fail, it doenst matter what roll it is for.

    • Charon

      I love this answer. Not knowing about the rules you want to discuss and staing your personal opinion as a fact when at least the second part is 100% wrong.

      • Alessandro Azzone

        Aah i love these rules lawyers, really the entire discussion is really what it worst about 40k. You are picking up what is clearly a loophole that would kill any game experience. As with 2+ reroll this is going to be nerfed by any TO and be utterly rejected in any pickup game, so yes 1+ is always a fail.

        • Charon

          A weapon makes you take an Initiative test, you need to roll below your initiative. You roll a 1. Success. So NO. It is not always a fail.
          It is actually people like you that are the worst in any game. Not knowing the rules, making wild and biased assumptions and get angry when proven wrong.
          Also: You roll for Armor penetration against AV10 with your Lacannon. You roll “1” and add in 9 from S. According to you a “fail” cause you rolled a 1.
          Again not a fail.
          Now you roll your FnP (5+) and add +4 to your dice roll. Guess what, not a fail either.

          Rules tell you that the only thing that auto fails on a roll of “1” is a save.
          Rules also tell you that FnP is not a save and can be taken when no saves are allowed.
          So please don’t argue on stuff that you don’t even have basic knowledge of.

          You can houserule anything you want, nobody is stopping you (same as TOs housrule 2+ rerolls) but dont present your own rules in any way as an official fact.

          • Alessandro Azzone

            ok try to get into context, I was clearly referring to “saves” armour/inv saves, FNP. I am not angry at all, i dont particularly care either. Try to get out and play instead of typing walls of text you will see what feedback you will get by trying to use this rubbish.

          • Charon

            Feel no Pain is no save, which is written word by word in the Feel no Pain rules.

          • Alessandro Azzone

            Go into the real world, you will never be allowed to us this.

          • Charon

            That is not the point. It is legal and you are allowed to houserule it. Claiming it is illiegal however is wrong and shows bad sport if you present your biased opinion as a fact.
            I am in the real world. Im not trapped in the matrix here. Maybe you should grow up and stop acting like a spoiled child.

          • Alessandro Azzone

            I am a grown up who plays with other grown ups and I am telling you what happens in the grown ups world. Now you can stop arguing with everyone else who doesnt agree with you on this thread (you seem to be all over the place tbh).

          • Charon

            So in the “grown up world” you jump up and down crying “it is illegal because… I say so!!!”. I dont think grown up means acting like a 5y old. Here in the grown up world we provide evidence for our statements if we want to discuss and do so in a civil way.
            And at the end of the day we can (again in the grown up world) agree to not use it or to houserule it.
            No problem with that.
            While you still jump up and down trying to make a point for which you have no evidence or fact provided. Sorry. That is far away from grown up… a better term would me Manchild.

          • Alessandro Azzone

            No in the grown up world you say politely “Sorry I really dont fancy playing this because it is not going to be fun for me, anyone else wants a game?”

          • Charon

            Which is perfectly fine.
            However making wild claims like:

            “Still going on with this nosense, are you? A roll to 1 is always a fail, it doenst matter what roll it is for.”

            is not.

          • Deathwing

            Alessandro bro, I hate to say it. I know it sounds weird (like Austin TX weird =P) to all of us old guys that played 2nd ed and everything since, but the rules as written in the big book allow this 1+ FNP. Granted its a very specific setup to do it, and lets be honest its only going to be on 1 model in the game, in 1 specific army. How many iron hands players are there? This is their nifty gimmick for their army. There are far worse nifty gimmicks out there, and besides, that 1+FNP is not that difficult to counter.

          • Morollan

            So when you say “A roll to 1 is always a fail, it doenst matter what roll it is for.” you actually mean “A roll of 1 is always a fail, it doesn’t matter what roll it is for. As long as that roll is an armour save, invulnerable save or FNP roll” (only 2 of which are true in any event).

            To put it simply, the rules specifically tell us, usually in bold, when a dice roll of 1 is an automatic pass or fail. Absent such a statement, no such rule is in place so kindly stop inventing one!

          • crevab

            “A roll to 1 is always a fail, it doenst matter what roll it is for.”

            “ok try to get into context, I was clearly referring to “saves” armour/inv saves, FNP”

            Hahahaha, backtrack moar

  • Arthfael

    “While it’s true that the Iron hands can get an astonishing 1+ FNP roll”
    It is not. Rolls of 1 always fail. No save or roll can be improved so that any result is a pass. How can you dedicate so much time to this game and not know this?! You are a roll of 1.

    • Charon

      How can you dedicate so much time to this game and not know this

      Which is exactly what I think when I have to read this…

      1) Rolls of 1 do not always fail. You can roll a 1 on your AP roll and still get a glance. You can roll a 1 on your Initiative roll and pass it.
      2) Only SAVE rolls of 1 always fail.
      3) FnP is not a save and it states that fact in the FnP rules, word for word.
      4) You never actually get FnP 1+, you only get FnP 4+, make your roll and add +3 to the result.

      So please people read the rules before discussing it. If you want to houserule it no problem. But wildly claiming things and accusing others of not knowing the rules while beeing wrong is…. strange?

    • Gian Carlo Peirce

      except hit and run.

  • Benderisgreat

    A 1 always fails Rob. Jeezus, read the rules…

    • Charon

      Would you kiindly stick to your own advice? So you could see this statement is wrong in a lot of ways.

    • ctFallen

      Actually he is tech right, While the rule says a roll of one for a saving throw always fails the rule for FNP says specifically that it isn’t a save, it even says you can make a fnp roll even when something doesn’t allow saving throws of any kind. While I think its cheesy it is supported by the rules. Also a roll of 1 can’t always fail as certain test want you to roll lower not higher.

    • highwind

      Perhaps you should read the rules instead…

      There is no “1 always fails” general rule
      There is a “a save of 1 always fails” rule and a FnP rule which clearly states that FnP is NOT a save…

      • Benderisgreat

        You obviously have a rulebook in front of you, so what’s the entry say?

        • Charon

          This is what you mean:

          Maximum Save

          Some models gain additional benefits from rules that may increase any of their saves by +1 or +2 or even more. However, ******no save (armour, cover or invulnerable)****** can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails.

          And this is FnP:

          When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (*******this is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state that ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’, for example those inflicted by Perils of the Warp********).

  • ctFallen

    Wouldn’t a roll of 6 on the stomp also bypass the FNP roll.

    • Charon

      Yes, as you are removed from the game entirely.

  • Robomummy

    Or don’t play against the person who would try to pull this crap

  • Deathwing

    Bring that 1+ FNP on. My vindicators and long fangs need target practice.
    BTW has anyone seen how many points an iron hands HQ with all the stuff needed to do this costs?

    • Morollan

      Yeah, the guy himself is about 240 and then you need to add in multiple librarians (for a decent chance of Endurance) and a command squad on bikes with an Apothecary so you’re looking well over 600 points to pull it off and you’re still relying on random chance

      • Deathwing

        Exactly! Thank you. All that and I’m going to roll a much more economically spent 600 points up and rock this clowns world, as should the rest of you. Come on. It is not that hard.

  • Grand_Master_Raziel

    The 1+ roll could be treated like BS 6. If the player rolls a 1, he gets a reroll, but has to roll a 6 not to take the wound.

  • Gridloc

    Love the ‘just don’t play them’ mentality… No wonder GW sales are declining, the active players are actually pushing away people because they are following the rules.

    • WellSpokenMan

      I kind of look at this kind of thing like spawn camping in video games. It’s legal, but I’m not going to think highly of someone who does it. I play tabletop games to get away from that type of person, because generally, people will be less of a tool when you’re face to face. If you are going to be “that guy,” I am not interested in game with you anyway, regardless of what list you are playing.

      • Gridloc

        Very true, video games though created new ‘random spawns’ to prevent this in a lot of games, as they saw people abusing this. Guess, we shouldn’t hold GW up to those standards of trying to fix these types of things right?

  • Orodruin

    Comments for topics like this are always hilarious. Never change, wargamers.

  • If you are such a bad player that you cannot handle one entirely overcosted combo deathstar that is “technically invincible” (because we were killing Screamerstars or Draigostars or JetSeerstars so easily), maybe 40K isn’t the game for you. This character can only be on one part of the board. This character will cost you Slay the Warlord if you don’t have D. This character has over 600 pts feeding that ridiculous FNP. This character starts losing his advantages as librarians and especially his command squad die around him. None of them are running 2+/3++ 1+FNP EW. At best, some of them have Endurance and a pretty boss FNP.

    • An_Enemy

      Try playing against it before you talk about how bad it is.

  • Jeremy Schellpeper

    This is an easy clarification/fix, TO’s rule all natural rolls of 1 fail (except Characteristic checks then its a 6). Why is this an issue, anyone tries this malarkey at my LGS and they are gonna lose that argument.

    • Djbz

      Yeah, would be simple, on a *+ roll a 1 always fails
      (Or a double 1 on a 2d6 roll)
      For a “less than” roll a 6 always fails
      (Or double 6 on a 2d6)

  • Me

    Can’t you also counter this by placing an army consisting of two minimal squads of Eldar Guardians and a vanilla Autarch on the table? I mean the Eldar are totally unbeatable in any and all circumstances, right? At least I read that on the Internet (re BoLS comments section) somewhere…

    Seriously though, if someone wants this then I wouldn’t have a problem playing them. I don’t really care as long as they pay the points for it. It might be jerkish, but I bet I can still beat him or her and have fun doing it without bringing my own giant bucket o’ cheese.

    • Brian Griffith

      And it’s such a specific combo, relying on not one but two lucky rolls.

      • Me

        Right… And if they miss either of those rolls, they have still spent the points. Even if it is/were allowed at a tournament, I wouldn’t want to spend my money and time entering and then depend on those two rolls to have a good chance (still not an auto-win) at success.

        • Brian Griffith

          And for that matter, even if this character is the hardest dude on the table, the two other characters that are buffing him are going to be considerably squishier. Those are valid targets.

  • Brian Griffith

    You’re misreading, Rob. The Gorgon’s Chain grants Eternal Warrior, so Instant Death is not a factor.

    • Charon

      It is as Eternal warrior does not invalidate the Id rule, it just prevents the wound from slaying you.

  • JP

    I know how to stop it. “You want the 1+ roll? Go find someone else to play against.”

    • Charon

      Still don’t see the problem here. It is a lot of points for ONE model that does not even have a high damage output and can get ripped apart by just killing the librarian with endurance.
      I would probabl shrug if he declares that he has 1+ FnP and ignore his 600 points unit as i concentrate on killing the other half of his army.

      • JP

        It’s more about the principle than anything else. I hate it when people go Rube Goldberg to exploit an obscure series of loosely connected rules or loopholes for advantage. It’s pretty obvious that the 1+ roll was an unintentional result and not created by design. Any reasonable person would say it doesn’t work because of the rule that states natural rolls of 1 automatically fail on those types of rolls.
        I know and have played against the type of people who would exploit it. They’re weasels, bluntly. They’re unpleasant to play against and turn what is supposed to be a fun game into a total chore.

        • Charon

          Must have been hard for GW to spot this as it is all from the same supplement on 2 pages. This is far from “loosely connected rules”.
          And if they hand out FnP modifiers in a supplement like candy I fully expect them to take a look at the USR they dish out.

          That is like saying “oh… yeah we made the gladius formation but we never ever expectet somone to actually use it…”

          • JP

            COME ON. Do you REALLY think the writers were thinking, “Let’s sneak a way to get 1+ FNP rolls into the rules for the people who scour every detail.”? You actually think they planned that?

          • Charon

            Nope but I think proofreading and rule testing only happens on a roll of 6 for GW designers.
            I fully expect them to go “What we wanna have as theme for the Iron hands?” “Feel no pain” “Nice.”
            “Hey we will do a supplement for Iron hands. Ideas for items?” “Hmm.. one that gives +1 to FnP?” “Nice… I always fpund FnP 6 a bit lacking… how about a warlord trait that gives also +1?” “Sounds ok… 4+ FnP on a random table for one model seems ok”
            “So guys… next edition… Ideas for psi powers?” “How about one that gives FnP 4+?”

            Let us be serious here. There is not a single isse that could not be solves with FAQ/Errata. But GW gives a damn what you think about their rules. they already have your money.

  • nurglespuss

    Uuurgh how much do BOLS writers and certain players want this nonsense to be true? Really no articles worth writing then?

  • So do I have to take them out for dinner first before I give them the D?

  • Brian Griffith

    Here’s the way you actually defeat this:

    Since the 1+ is highly dependent upon other units, don’t even waste your time firing on the dude that has it.

    Kill the librarian, and kill the apothecary.

    Or am I making too much sense?

  • Mordrot

    Wow 40k is open to so many shenanigans, I’m hoping next edition tightens everything up to be a little more simple but also more clear but that would entail ripping out all the apocalypse type things out they have shoehorned in recently so I guess it’s just wishful thinking

  • Dennis Harrison

    Can I just upvote “Give them The D”..

  • From what I understand you use the psychic power “Enhance(?) ” in order to get that 1+ FNP roll. Enhance (if that is the one I am thinking of) gives the unit a 4+ FNP as well as eternal warrior (ignores instant death). As such enfeeble and force weapons would not work, the only thing that would work would be D weapons or weapons that “remove the model” such as vortex bombs and dangerous terrain rolls. Right? Or am I missing something about eternal warrior?

  • Christopher Saldaña

    I don’t mind when people are power gamers, I love a challenge and I love making powerful lists. But I’m fairly certain a 1+ roll was never intended to exist and that’s just GW getting sloppy. I’m the last person who would house rule something just because its powerful, but this obviously goes against the design of the game, if something is designed to be a roll, it shouldn’t be able to be upgraded to automatically pass unless you get a special rule specifically letting you.

  • ieyke

    Terminator Armor should be 1+.
    Give AP1 anti-tank weapons another purpose, and give Terminators an Armor Save that actually protects them from plasma’s AP2…..since plasma is what the armor is designed to protect against….

    A roll of a 1 still automatically fails (unless the current edition of the game was stupid enough to remove that).

    A 1+ isn’t actually a huge deal. It just means that AP2 doesn’t negate it.
    For 1++, it’s essentially the same thing as 2++.

    • Calgar

      Nah terminator armor should just work like crisis suit and give +1 to Str, Tough, and Wounds.

      • JP

        Like Centurion armor?