40K RUMORS: Traitor’s Hate CSM Book Details

traitor's hate - cover - GW-horz

The rumors are starting to flow on the new Chaos Marines Book!

 

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via dakka’s Aracersss 8-27-2016

Well, saw the Traitor’s Hate stuff and talked about it to the redshirt. Supposedly it has datasheets for all renegade knight patterns seperatly instead of the single one from the box, i.e. Warden, Crusader and so on. Dedications are in.
Kharn will get a new datasheet, but will mostly stay the same except for one change. Maybe the rumored Eternal Warrior, the guy refused to clarify that. He can be taken in CSM and KDK.
Black Legion meta formation is the usual decurion stuff. Several formations combine daemons and CSM. It’s all about BL and CS, so no stuff for other legions.
The psychic disciplines are not god-specific and availiable to all psykers.

Names of the new heretic Psychic Disciplines.
Ectomancy (mmm, Ecto Cooler)
Geomortis
Sinisturm
Heretech

Rumored Heretech power:

Howl of the Warp
Warp Charge 2

Blessing targeting a friendly unit within 18″

Unit’s ranged weapons become AP3, Gets Hot

Previous Traitor’s Hate Info

traitor's hate - cover - GW

~Death to the False Emperor!

  • Randy Randalman

    Giving a bunch of Flamers of Tzeentch AP3 weapons could be hilarious.

    Even standard dudes with 3+ saves could be nasty with rapid fire AP3 Boltguns. There are so many Marines armies out there right now, after all.

    • denzark

      Or a 35-man cultist squad – all them autoguns…

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Even if only a third of them wound, that’s a dead Marine squad.

    • Zack Seiders

      only minor note is the get hot. Which in combination of say. mark of slannesh icon of excess or just plague marines would pretty much equal all of the benefits with minimal consequences of gets hot.

    • shiwan

      And you get to shoot all those 20 marines with gets hot in to a combat squad. Awesome profit.

      • Zack Seiders

        Power is better spent on a marine unit that has longer range and more shots, particularly anything strength 5 or above. “if 2 certain units get there own kit right around the time we get this book that be great.

        • shiwan

          Mutilators and warp talons?

          • Zack Seiders

            havocs and obliterators. Mutilators and warp talons don’t even have guns.

          • Karru

            Nah, Mutilators, Bro. No one expects the ranged AP 3 Mutilators!

          • Zack Seiders

            You mean obliterators “which ARE the ranged version… even though obliterators came first”

          • Karru

            It seems I still have to practice my joke delivery.

          • Zack Seiders

            I get the joke. “basically gw doing something incomprehensibly stupid rule wise with certain units like granting fearless on a unit that is going to get fearless by default thanks to chaos lord who is glued to them herpy derp”. Redundant at this point.

          • shiwan

            I’m aware.

            Oblits do not need ap3 and havocs are sub par with or without it.

          • Zack Seiders

            Talking about new models for said obliterators and havocs. Terms of units that are best for the psychic power, havocs and noise marines are the better candidates, havocs have fewer models “only 4 of them can hold heavy weapons atm” but longer range or the noise marines who is a ear splitting boombox with the unfortunate range of 24 (speaking of boxes, I doubt theirs is going to last long)

          • shiwan

            Out of those 2 I’d take havocs.

          • Zack Seiders

            Havocs are cheaper. Only advantage obliterators have is pure durability and that the reason why they cost a lot is that they have ALL the guns.

          • shiwan

            True. That beinf said they are way too costly for what they do.

          • Zack Seiders

            Bonus that obliterators have the main problem of still being fine cast “particular the models that use to be metal b4 switching over…. which have its own share of problems”

          • Charon

            Meh… a 5 man squad of 4 autocannons is dirt cheap while also making sure you can switch to killing light vehicles. The risk of gets hot is quite low while they should claim 4,44 MEQ lifes before cover.

          • Zack Seiders

            bonus with twinlinked. only bad part is converting (have to butcher a reaper autocannon and put it into the heavy bolter worst case scenario). Mark of nurgle is the only good mark for these guys in terms of increasing their toughness “even though most long range weapons would not care for toughness”

          • Charon

            Keep them bare bones for 115.
            I got mine from FW. 13 BPS for 5 is not too bad.

          • Zack Seiders

            Figured as much. Most long range guns tend to not care for toughness 5 anyways. Also just spotted the 5 in forge world. All I need at that point is to get some csm packets and do some kit bashing “use the packets to make 2 havoc squads. One with auto cannons and other with heavy bolters. Just wish the champion is actually useful “quad guns do not count”

          • Charon

            Did mine with Betrayal at Calth marines and spare bits from regular CSM. Was quite a deal. Also the Calth box has heavy bolters.

          • shiwan

            You need to add the cost of the sorc to that if you want to have the actual cost.

          • Charon

            Not really as the sorc is not only there to augment these guys. If you run a cyclopean cabal for shroud of deceit you have to buy the sorcs anyways.
            You would add the cost in if you buy a sorc JUST for these guys (which I rules out initially as gambling) but then you can use other units as you want to play around a sorc with this power and not just use it in case you roll it.

          • shiwan

            That thing is available only to BL. I’m willing to bet that it’s not that common legion considering that it’s only driving force is Abaddon and he has very few fans.

          • Charon

            Im willing to bet it is a formation that can join any flavor of CSM as long as you fulfill the prequisits which are not “requires a black paint job” but “requires 3 – 5 sorc with VotlW”

          • shiwan

            That could be but at the moment it’s BL only.

          • Charon

            It is not BL only. Neither are White scar chapter tactics white scar only (you can name your chapter “the emperors fluffiest” paint them pink and still claim white scars) or ravenguard formations ravenguard only (the shadow woodpeckers with ravenguard tactics can also claim them).
            Welcome to 7th edition. You are not restricted by paintjob or name of your warband.
            If you want a cabal, buy it. I already gave you the prequisits. Thats all.

          • shiwan

            Raven Guard CT is available to RG and it’s successors. It’s not available to SW or UM. Exactly the same as BL formations are not available to CS or WB.

            I thought this was self evident since BL is the only one of the legions that has the permission to use other legion/warband formations.

          • Charon

            Can you stop making things up?
            There is nothing stopping you playing Wordbearers and using the cabal. It does nowhere say “Black Legion only”. It is a standard formations picked from a supplement.
            So either quote the “you have to paint them black and call them Black legion!” rule or go back under your bridge.
            It is a formation. Nothing is stopping you from using it. Nothing is also stopping you from using the KDK Gorepack in your Nightlords army.

          • shiwan

            It’s in a BL supplement and CC is a BL formation according to the supplement. I’m pretty confident that wulfen formations are not available for CSM either and those are just as supplemental as BL is.

            The actual paint scheme is pretty irrelevant in this discussion since all CSM formations are either only BL formations or also BL formations.

            Well, to be honest, nothing MORE is stopping me from using Gorepack in NL army. It’s just that it’s still a KDK formation with KDK units, no matter what models or paint schemes are actually used in the game.

          • Charon

            And exactly the same is true for the BL formations.
            There is no difference between:
            3 CSM sorc with Votlt
            and
            3 CSM sorc with Votlt

            It does not matter if you call them Nightlord Prophets Cabal or Wordbearer High Oracles.
            It is 3 CSM sorcs from the main chaos book with Votlw.

            Also fun fact: You can include wulfen formations in a CSM army (CtA allies ruling).
            BL has no own units, they use the rules from the CSM book.
            There is no difference bewteen the units in a formation as they are not from a different codex (like DA, BA, SW) and neither have different rules for different chapters (as SM chapter tactics).
            There is nothing that makes the cabal black legion only. Its just a name not a rule.

          • shiwan

            They are what the codex or codex supplement says they are. BL supplement says they are BL so they are BL no matter the models or colors.
            The difference between 3-5 VotLW sorcs and the Cyclopean Cabal is that both can be from BL sub faction of CSM but the Cabal has to be.

            Actually those wulfen would be allied to CSM army, not a part of it. There is a huge difference.

            The codex supplement says that the sorcerers in the CC have to be BL. That’s a pretty good indication to that they are going to have to be BL. I suggest that you check it out. It took me a whole 10 seconds to make sure it is so. Google is a huge helper for you.

            You can paint them how ever you want though.

          • Charon

            And what makes them BL on the table? Unless it is a rule that sets them apart it is just a name. Paint a formation from the iyanden supplement in Biel tan colors and it is makes no difference. You do not have to play BL to use the cabal, you dont have to paint the cabal black and you do not have to call them BL.
            The only real difference would be if there was something that says “all BL models in 12″ gain…” in this case, yes as it was a choice from the BL supplement, they count as beeing BL. But that is not stopping you from bringing a cabal with any army out there you like and paint them as wordbearers. Which was the statement you challenged.

          • shiwan

            The fact that the codex supplement says that they are BL on the table. I challenged the claim that they do not have to be BL. They have to be. The rules say so. The sorcerers do not get to be in that formation unless they are, by the rules, regardless of what they look like, Black Legion sorcerers.

          • Charon

            No you did not. You challenged the fact you cant include them in a non-BL army, which is still wrong.

            “That thing is available only to BL. I’m willing to bet that it’s not that common legion considering that it’s only driving force is Abaddon and he has very few fans.”

            There is no issue to include a cabal into a Wordbearer army following the rules from the supplement.

          • shiwan

            Nope. As you can see I never said it can not be a part of an army that has other units. It’s a separate detachment on it’s own. You can add it to other armies but it is still a BL detachment no matter what models or colors are used. You can use them with other legions all you want but they are still BL.

          • Charon

            Nope thats what I was sying. Honestly stop trolling.
            I claimed that you dont add in the cost of the sorc if you would have taken him in anyways and gave the cabal as an example because it is one of the most popular csm formations atm.
            You chimed in and claimed that it is only available if you play BL which most people do not. This statement was wrong.
            You also went on with:

            “That could be but at the moment it’s BL only.”

            When I told you it was a formation and you can run it alongside any CSM faction.

            So srsly stop making things up, it is plain for all to see here.

          • shiwan

            Simply “no”. I’m not going to debate this further. What I did or did not claim is plainly available and none of your accusations hold true with them.

          • TruthSeeker77

            Dude really?

          • TruthSeeker77

            dude…

        • Sigmarine

          Or maybe on a unit of noise marines, just imagine 10 of them woth sonic blasters. 30 s4 shots with ap3, and ignore cover. Gives me a warm slaaneshi feeling…

          • Zack Seiders

            still need to be 24 inches of an unwilling audience to use the guns. Unless the rhino stays alive that long the noise marines are going to have some… complainers.

  • Agent OfBolas

    It’s not new CSM book but another crappy “buy more knights” addon.

    CSMs need a total redesign, not another “expansion”.

    • georgelabour

      Since you have the book in hand and have read it enough to make such grand judgements can we ask which page the Black Legion rules are on?

      • Zack Seiders

        I just care if we get actual formations this time around. Powers are already enticing.

      • Wayne Molina

        Come on dude we all know this is a supplement not a revamp which is what chaos needs. That’s not to say it will be total garbage but let’s be realistic here

    • Nathaniel Wright

      Ooh, oh! How about what’s going on with their relics? I’d really like to hear how juicy those are! Tell us more, Futureman!

    • Karru

      Yeah, just like everyone already said, what type of formations are there? What do you have to take in them and what buffs do they give?

  • nuggy

    I wonder how many of these “mini updates” we will see before they actually give us a new codex…

    • kevinharoun

      How many are you willing to buy?

      • shiwan

        None unless it boosts CSM enough and in diverse ways to compete with the top codices.

    • georgelabour

      Well they’re British. So a number you can divide 42 by sounds about right.

  • Zack Seiders

    If the formations are a combination of daemons of chaos with the csm their should not be to many problems providing we get more daemons than just the khorne flakes.

  • Nathaniel Wright

    Sounds like an easy way to field Word Bearers (combining CSM and Daemons).

    • shiwan

      I’m guessing that this is not the kind of combination KDK has but rather one closer to csm with allied daemons.

      • Nathaniel Wright

        Oh probably, but I don’t think anyone was thinking they’d get super mixed squads or whatever. I’m curious how the synergy will end up playing.

        • shiwan

          Likely like with KDK, meaning you only play daemons.

          • EnTyme

            Well, that is unless they add some new formations where the CSM can buff the daemons. I’d love to see more Chaos Marines on the table.

          • shiwan

            I’d love to see them too but I very much doubt that they will make them worth it.

  • Charon

    Pretty hard to find a decent target for that power if you do not plan on gambling.
    Any kind of space marine unit is too small to get actual use out of it. I you make them bigger, you are gambing (as the unit is worse than more smaller units if you dont roll the power).
    Some multifire plattforms look like decent (Forgefiend in this case) but probably will blow up themselves.
    That leves you with 2 units. Noise marines and havocs. Both could potentially be devastating.
    If you like to gamble try Termicide with flamers.
    And if you want to absolutely lose your friends, ally in Renegades, grab those Wyvern batteries and look how fast his units disappear.

    • Zack Seiders

      Forgot about noise marines and their range. Really the get hot rule can be minimal if you find a way to give unit fnp. “plague marines” or be able to fire a lot of bullets with little to no worry (slannesh patrol). Since it is ap 3, this would mean the return of the heavy bolter havocs “or auto cannons if one can do some conversion work”.

      • Charon

        Yeah the get hot can be mitigated but you are lacking volume of fire with plaque marines. At the end of the day 10 plaque marines are still just 10 shots at 24″ (leves you before cover with around 3,333 dead MEQ) which is pretty meh as there are cheaper powers that are more devastating (scream anyone?).
        So a unit of 10 Noise marines will kill a whole squad of MEQ with no cover saves allowed.

        • Zack Seiders

          Minor note on noise marines, if you want feel no pain, you are going to have to pay more points for the icon. Still standing on havocs though if you REALLY want a back field shooter ruining a loyalists day “for cheaper points” sorcerer does not even have to do much save for stand there and cast”

      • Dan Wilson

        Crimson Slaughter cult of slaughter cultists. D6 get back up at the start of each movement phase.

    • Djbz

      Noise marines would be amazing for this if it weren’t for the relatively short range of their Salvo guns (Which seriously limits your targets)
      Ap3 Autocannons/Heavy bolters/Frag missiles
      Or even twin linked bolters from bikes and terminatiors where they can get to raid fire rather easily wouldn’t be too bad (if a bit hefty on points)

      • Zack Seiders

        Havocs and heavy bolters being the cheaper option all things considered “both point wise and bit wise” Which means hello nurgle themed sorcerer and havocs.

        • Deacon Ix

          Or go for what I have instead (as well as) the Havocs with HB – 3x Rapiers with Quad H Bolters, 120pts for the lot. the rerolls would help negate the gets hot and 18 s5 ap3 shots would be devastating.

          • Zack Seiders

            Talking about forgeworld unit? Because I am not paying that much for said stuff. Although If one gets enough bits the autocannon option is on the more expensive but more useful category. “twinlinked strength 6 longer range as well as said power.”

          • Deacon Ix

            It is FW but as I can use it in both my CSM and 30k armies I considered it a reasonable investment and it is considerably more effective than a Havoc squad.

  • Wa Bell

    This book is probably the first real chance to see if the company attitude (post management change) toward Chaos has changed at all given about a 6-8 month lead time. I look forward to seeing if anything meaningful has changed.

    Looking back, clearly the Blood Oath books were just a teaser series for this.

    • shiwan

      Looking at the Blood Oath rules, no, it has not changed.

  • JP

    AP3 and Get’s Hot? Now we can turn Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons into even more a lawn mower than they already were.
    Would also be great on Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters. Kiss your cover AND your armor goodbye.

    • Zack Seiders

      At the cost of gets hot which will kill the forgefiends faster than normally. “unless you can get them twinlinked.”

      • JP

        Prescience from a Tzeentch Daemon psyker would fix that. But honestly, Gets Hot happens on 1’s and the Fiend has a 5+ save. He probably wouldn’t die any faster than normal for a model with dreadnought armor. Particularly if you only use the power to buff him at critical moments.

        • Djbz

          Standing on a targeting relay would be enough

          • JP

            Yeah, but that would require one to actually appear with a die roll. I’d rather have the Psyker. He’s already there to cast the first power anyway. Throwing the second one on is pretty easy. Well, assuming the AP3 power isn’t hard to get that is.

        • Zack Seiders

          Twinlinked tends to help with get hot. Feel no pain and a good armor save are other remedies.

    • Painjunky

      Those forgefiends with AP3 hades autocannons will kill 3-4 marines on average per turn.
      How is that a “Lawn mower”?

      • Charon

        Shhht…. he already considers the unbuffed Forgefiend a lawn mower…

        • JP

          I done derped. See above.

      • shiwan

        For it’s cost that’s pretty poor achievement….

      • JP

        I haven’t played in a while. I forgot it’s rate of fire isn’t that high. I thought it was more comparable to a Dakkafex.
        The Fiends guns are still pretty useful though. You can shoot them at light armor, infantry, MCs, and even Flyers. I like them for the flexibility. It’s a Jack of All Trades weapon instead of a Rock-Paper-Scissors one.

  • Malthrak

    So, nothing that’s going to address any of the core issues of the CSM codex, just a Decurion and some new psychic powers and maybe EW for Kharne?

    Zzz…..

    • Wayne Molina

      Let’s be realistic though this is a supplement it is not a replacement codex. New psychic powers and a good set of formations may be enough to tide us over until a revamp. None of us are expecting them to fix everything with this book just give something to help

      • Brian Griffith

        And we’re not likely to get any new full-on codexes until 8th anyway.

        Which is good. I wouldn’t want a Chaos codex on the rump-end of an edition. It wasn’t fun the last time we got that.

        • shiwan

          Having the test codex for the edition is soooo much better. 😀

          • Brian Griffith

            And yet, we whined when loyalist Space Marines were the first codex of several editions, too.

            I’m not sure what the “good” answer is, here, and I’m definitely counting myself in the “we” I mention. It’s almost like… different editions had different development priorities.

          • shiwan

            Timing is meaningless, balance is everything.

          • Lee Williams

            Necrons are still getting grief over that privilege from 7th.

            Oh the necrons get to pay a model tax that gives them the same reanimation as they used to have! Thats so OP.

          • shiwan

            Incredibly cheap s6 shooting on a super fast platform that is relatively durable, insane psychics, free stuff for existing, massed sD, deathstars and such are fine tho….

      • Malthrak

        You’d think it would have just been easier to write a new CSM codex instead of just coming out with another supplement covering the paint-by-numbers Black Legion stuff they already covered with a previously dead-on-arrival supplement…

        I mean, it’s not like it would have been any less effort or expense here.

      • Malisteen

        The CSM codex was junk to start, and it’s already seen a bunch of supplements that have failed to move the needle on it in any meaningful way. If we’re being ‘realistic’, then based on repeated experience another supplement isn’t going to change anything. Realistically speaking, you’re better off going into it with that expectation and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out otherwise, rather than getting your hopes up and very likely being disappointed.

  • Hawt Dawg

    This thread is confusing.

    I thought is was all about those Warmachine players who started with AoS…

  • Malisteen

    Not really seeing anything in these rumors yet that makes me want to fish my chaos marines out of storage. No new transport/delivery options. Nothing fixing the waste of space that most of my favorite units are (chosen, possessed, terminators, etc). Something may come out of the formations, but yeah, chaos marines need a new codex, not another expansion stapled to the underlying mess.

    Most of their units need their stat lines, points costs, and options re-thought, not just another usr pasted on if you field 8 units of 8 of them.

    • The_Ordo_Malleus

      But no one has seen it yet so you can’t judge.

      • Malisteen

        I’m not judging the final product, I’m judging what the rumors are describing so far.

  • Sure

    It’s all about Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter? And Renegade Knights? This is a looking to be a cheap re-pack with some tweaks to the Knights to make them worse.

    • The_Ordo_Malleus

      Being able to take two of the same weapon does not make them worse, 2 Avenger Gattling cannons sounds like fun 24 S6 AP3 shots with rending lol

      • Sure

        They’ll figure out a way to make traitor nights worse than loyalist

  • Andrew Thomas

    Can we get an actual Codex, instead of some hackneyed campaign book?

    • Andrew Webb

      Well, be careful what you wish for. You might well get a terribly nerfed POS codex like the BA got.

      • shiwan

        The BA is still a better codex than CSM so even that would be a change for the better.

        • Andrew Webb

          Hahaha. No. You are an idiot if you think that. They are both rubbish. Equally terrible and both in desperate need of a total reworking.

          • Skathrex

            Hahaha. No. Not even by a long shot. You are an idiot if you think that the BA codex is nearly as bad as the CSM one.
            See what I did there?
            In all honesty you have way more tools, better costet Units etc.
            Oh never fu cking underestimate “They shall know no fear” that one is the best rule in the game.
            Compared to Vanilla SM yes, BA are bad, compared to CSM, BA are gods. Its not for nothing some Khorne players used to play counts as BAs bevor the KDK codex.

          • Andrew Webb

            Skathy, BA have less tools, CSM Squads, both regular and chosen, are more flexible in loadout. You get Obliterators, Cultist Spam, decent psykers (you don’t actually have to take a mark on them you know), invisibility which is a must now. Familiars. Helldrake is better than a Stormraven at CAS (which is all they are both good for now). Spawn with marks under invisibility…. and so on. Compared to CSM BA are most definitely not gods. Look at the placings in any tournament. CSM finish higher pretty much always, except for that one Dread heavy list that caught the meta by surprise.

          • shiwan

            BA has better units, better tools and is cheaper. CSM has psykers. That is it. More, better units with better tools > couple of unreliable jesters.

          • Lee Williams

            Tournament placements are about the player. Not the codex. If CSM are winning tourneys, that’s because they are better players that have learned to use inferior units to overcome.
            Tourney play vs Garage game balance is also a whole different animal. Only WAAC care about tourney play.

            Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.

  • E65

    “It’s all about BL and CS”

    Well GW, stick it up your jumper.

  • Mário Martins

    CAn i get kharn in KDK please?!! AMEN

    • Andrew Webb

      Apparently yes, which he should be,

  • Aaron

    what does ‘CS’ stand for?

    • shiwan

      Crimson Slaughter. It’s a semi nameless warband of CSM but apparently still more codex worthy than the rest of the actual legions.

  • Black Legion-centric book, has Kharn on the cover. Makes sense! Still super excited about this, my World Eaters have a lot of dust to shake off!

  • Xodis

    As long as this doesn’t interfere with a new CSM codex/redesign (one they desperately need) its just whatever. Im more curious about 8edition and what happens to CSM then.

    • shiwan

      This. After it became apparent that this is just another CSM wiff from GW I lost interest and returned to hope for an edition that is not almost totally bad.

  • Ezekyle Abaddon

    IF THIS IS TRUE THEN BY MY HAND THE GALAXY SHALL FALL!