Goatboy’s 40K: Thank Goodness New 40k

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Goatboy time! – Today’s brilliant bit of writing brings along the newest bit of 40k fun – the DeathWatch Codex!

Finally we got some new 40k that isn’t some annoying FAQ with questions we all knew the answers too or some dribbling tidbits of rumor that most likely won’t come to fruition.  This isn’t to say that the DeathWatch release brings everything to the table – but it does give a nice bit of fun to an otherwise bland set of releases.  Let’s begin this overview by looking at the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.  Like I said overall I am pretty happy with the book as I think it does give some lists some help as it is a decent “fixer” ally for a lot of armies.  As a Stand alone army – it is playable just not nearly as good as some of the other “Marine” books filled with free transports and other game busting Chapter Tactic mechanics.

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The Good

First of all this book can let you build a CAD.  I know in today’s game full of Formations, Decurion/Battle Hosts/Gladius’s, and other methods for army building – having access to a straight CAD is so 5th edition.  I love this as it lets you actually have more options in creating your army.  I think the Harlies could have been a much stronger release if they only gave you a true HQ to help build an actual Force that isn’t locked into whatever “balanced” formation GW created.  This is the biggest thank goodness out of the book and I hope future “ally” style codexes go in this direction.  I know not every army should be a full fledged single choice but it is nice to let you have that option.  Now you can use an Ally too – which is great as we all know how all the different formations can be annoying.

Also – if you ever wanted an army full of Sternguard with a heck of a lot more cooler options – then this is the army for you.  The sheer amount of options you have to “fix up” your veterans means a massed Drop Pod army full of these guys might actually be good.  This is something extremely scary for Eldar to face as while the individual units themselves are squishy – they can really put out a ton of firepower.  You could also make them extremely nutty with crazy melee weapons.

The book is full of different options.  I love the fact that each “troop” unit can be set up pretty much any way you want it to be.  Do you want to use one of the best new guns in the game?  Sure you get to have 4 of them in a decent troop choice.  How about building a unit full of “heroes” and having all the cool guns you need?  Take a Kill Team or two.  Obviously gun option limits in units is for losers so how about making your Terminators pretty dang good?  Overall the book lets you build a custom force to help deal with whatever is bothering you at the moment.  This is good as it brings some much needed “customization” into the game as well as letting you create a few “personal” units based on what you need.

I love the idea of having a ton of Kill Teams with specialized guns, a bad ass Terminator guy, and a Librarian to throw out a Psychic Shriek or two.  This is the army if you want a ton of Libbies but don’t want to take a conclave and feel like a cheater mc cheaterson.  I suspect there could be a massed Psychic Shriek list that could work and with some Frag Cannons or two, it would have enough extra abilities to help deal with a ton of stuff.  Heck the whole idea of only needing 1 model to utilize a unit is really pretty interesting.  Each little piece can give a great rule to the unit itself.  Are you worried about not being able to shoot that tank with your Cyclone ML terminator?  Add a biker to the Kill team.  You want to make sure your powerful assault Kill them is set up right – add a Vanguard Vet to the unit.  I think there is a lot of customizable play with this army and the way you build “units”.  It reminds me how fun it was to mix and match armor with the Space Wolf army.

Thankfully we got a different gun that isn’t some kind of Grav Cannon knock off.  Is the Frag Cannon better then the Grav Cannon?  No but it sure is different and does a heck of a lot of different things.  I consider it more like the Psycannon from 5th edition days.  It does everything you need it to do – gives you some flamer templates to remove some hordes, has a good Str/AP value for most other things, and lets you deal with Armor close range.  This gun alone will be the biggest help to a ton of armies needing decent allies to help shore up their weaknesses.  The biggest thing that sucks is that it is only one per Veteran box when they really should have had 2 on the sprue.  I think this design for a gun should flow into the Heavy Bolter – but will have to wait for a future edition/revamp to really get that change.

The Flyer is actually pretty decent too and depending on if the Flyer supplement gets to play with the big boys – we’ll see if needing a flyer on the table is a good thing.  But still overall its set up is good, it is aggressively costed, and actually looks like something that might kinda work in real life.  It doesn’t have the blunt force nature that you see in the Storm Raven and still has the “40k feel” with its iconography and overall shape.

The listed “Chaplain Cassius and friends” box is a great deal by the looks of it.  Coming in at less then half of the initial Deathwatch board game means you can it at a pretty good deal.  I also like how the bike box is 5 models for a cheaper cost then the older 3 man boxed set.  Even the combo’d Land Raider options and Rhino/Razorback set up is pretty dang good.  It makes me think that the new CEO’s plan to make things better is to smash things together into a box and give a discount.  I like this as we all know buying locally will let you still play locally – so any form of discount – even when buying more then one thing basically – is a good thing.

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The Bad

The Marines do cost a bit too much as while if you compare them to other chapters they fit within the “point” range for what they get – they should have had a discount a bit to make the army a bit better.  Its just me but the new edition is a heck of a lot more brutal so having less bodies on the table that are not any more “less squishy” doesn’t help.  I was hoping they would run at 100 points for a unit with some of the options being cheaper.  Still I think it is a fair cost for the unit when compared to other options.

The Decurion/Black Spear formation build is pretty good – but it does have some rough taxes to throw in.  You need to get a Dreadnought in most armies as that is the cheapest Auxiliary tax. There is also the Command option you have to take but they are not terrible on their own.  I do wish the straight “Kill Team formation” was the actual troop choice as it could make for some cool armies that are a different form of CAD with Objective Secured Kill Teams.

The Codex isn’t bad but I feel it will be regulated to an Ally choice in a lot of builds as while they have decent rules – their set up demands some kind of help.  I can really see them being good with a Knight based army as they help answer some things with bodies and decent weaponary.  A few veteran squads mixed with a Baronial Court seems perfectly set up to help you win games.  A Culexus sounds right and now you have the ultimate “Kill Team” that could win some games through decent weapons and some of its own Mission tactics.

I was hoping their Chapter Tactics like ability would be better.  Sure the reroll option is good – but it does feel a bit kinda meh when compared to some of the better “chapter” tactics you see in the Marine codexes.  Iron Hands can survive longer, White Scars can hit and run, and the Ultramarines reroll things forever.  I don’t know what rule might be “better” but I am sure I will lose a few games to those strong Death Watch players that will come out of the wood work.

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The Ugly

I don’t find really anything ugly in the book.  I love the new “repackaging” of units with combo’d boxes full of every option.  I think the lack of 2 Frag Cannons in a veteran box is the biggest pain in the butt as this will be a hard army to get fully together.  I wish they would set up each box to be a full set of options for it.  They have moved from 10 man units to 5 man – so having all the options in there would have been great for the Veterans.

I also find the 3+ week release for this to be kinda annoying.  The Codex first is good – but having it show up with a big ole board game is a rough thing on the wallet.  I was hoping to see how much the “upgrade” sprue might cost by itself but will still waiting to see if it will be released.  It looks like it is just shoulder pads and a sword so again the ability to throw in an awesome Frag Cannon would have been rad to see.

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Deathwatch Lists

Initial List thoughts that might work.

Knights + DW CAD + Assassin

Baronial Court
Knight Warden
Knight Gallant
Knight Gallant

DeathWatch CAD
Librarian
Veteran Squad X 5, Frag Cannon X 2, Drop Pod
Veteran Squad X 5, Frag Cannon X 2, Drop Pod
Veteran Squad X 5, Frag Cannon X 2, Drop Pod

Culexus Assassin

I am almost tempted to just go all Gallant’s as it is different from other Knights and your DW can be your heavy hitters when it comes to shooting things.  You could always drop the Assassin to give shooting ability to all the Knights but I have a soft space for the Close Combat Wunderkind that is the Imperial Knight.  If you went with all 3 you could go with the Gallant Lance as it is another barely seen option.

Jensus DW

Black Spear Strike Force Idea

Command
Strategium Command Team 325
Chaplain, The Beacon Angelis
Aquila Kill Team
Librarian, Force Axe
Veteran X 5, Storm Shields X 4, Heavy Thunder Hammer X 1, Drop Pod

Core
Aquila Kill Team – 325
Librarian, Force Axe
Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
DW Biker X 1

Aquila Kill Team –
Librarian, Force Axe
Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
DW Biker X 1

Aquila Kill Team –
Librarian, Force Axe
Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
DW Biker X 1

Aquila Kill Team –
Librarian, Force Axe
Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
DW Biker X 1

Auxiliary
Dreadnought, Drop Pod 135

This one looks a bit janky but it has a lot of bodies and could do a ton of damage.  The bikers give the unit split fire so the Terminator could Cyclone ML something else as the bullets and frag cannons shoot something else.  I could drop that to an Assault cannon or maybe even a Melta Powerfist to shave off more points for different bodies.  The Drop pod on the Command option is to allow me to deep strike close, have my guys pop out, and then use the Beacon to drop the other Kill Teams off of it as nothing states it has to be on the board before hand.

Finally we have a really dumb “Death Star” idea that utilizes the fact the Mixing unit can have a ton of Storm Shields and other fun options.

Cassius DW

Heroes of the Imperium

Death Watch CAD
Librarian, Lvl 2, Force Axe, The Beacon Angelis 125
Chaplain 95
Veterans X 10, Storm Shields X 5, Power Mauls X 5, Heavy Thunder Hammer X 2
Veterans X 5, Drop Pod

GK Nemesis Strike Force
GK Librarian, Lvl 3, Force Halberd, The Book of Extra Spell
GK Librarian, Lvl 3, Force Halberd
Strike Squad X 5
DreadKnight, Personal Teleporter, Hvy Incinerator, Nemesis Daemon Hammer
DreadKnight, Personal Teleporter, Hvy Incinerator, Greatsword
Draigo

Inquisitor – Xenos Inquisitor, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades

So basically you got a big fat unit of Vets – you can drop in your Librarian with the Beacon first turn, Gate your squad up there with Draigo, and get prepared to punch stuff and hopefully survive with 2+ Inv save guys who maybe could have veil or something else.  Your Power Mauls can get up to Strength 8 while your Halberds are hitting at Strength 7 with a normal initiative.  The Chaplain means you are double fearless and the Inquisitor means you fight dirty when going against other Death Stars.

The Dread Knights can float around the table, deep strike in off of the Beacon, and just be a pain in the butt.  Plus it feels very – anti Bad guy set up that comes in a big burst of light, gets set up to kick butt, and then provides said butt kicking at a fair and just price.

 

Overall I am pretty happy with the book.  I think it does a lot of cool things, gives you something different then the other Marine books, and I think can hang with most armies.  We’ll see if events get taken over with the next easiest Marine army to paint right behind the Grey Knights.

~How happy are you to have the first new 40K codex in over a year?

  • el_tigre

    Which do you spend more money on? Wargames or new Ctrl and V keys for your keyboard?

    • SicSemperTyrannis

      Damn son.

    • Simon Chatterley

      What if he alternatively used the mouse and highlighted the text and then right clicked Copy and then right clicked Paste?

      That gives the average keyboard twice as much life.

      Didn’t factor that in did ya?

    • Hawt Dawg

      Ha ha ha…

    • MPSwift

  • Andrew Webb

    The Frag Cannon should have been a BA weapon. After all they had it first on the Furioso dreadnought. Not to mention the Furioso Contemptor from FW rules has the option to take one. Thanks again GW, once again BA have stuff stolen and gain nothing

    • euansmith

      That’s just the Black Rage talkin’, brother. 😉

    • Alienerd the unbannable

      Your army (space marines) has been broken into multiple codexes. Just be thankful you’ve got that and aren’t stuck with just 1 main book like every other race.

      • AnomanderRake

        I would love my Inquisition army to be stuck back into one main book. Needing four Codexes and detachments from each to play my old Daemonhunters is getting really, really old.

        • Matt Mo

          This X 10000

    • Djbz

      You forgot to mention that the deathwatch frag-cannon was improved as well.

    • Damistar

      There are Blood Angels in the Deathwatch, they just brought some Frag Cannons with them 🙂

    • Benderisgreat

      The Heavy Bolter with built-in Heavy Flamer should have been a Sisters of B weapon, because FIRE.

      Power fists with meltaguns also seem like a no-brainer for every army that gets terminators, because they’re so under-armed it’s criminal.

      • Andrew Webb

        Indeed.

  • euansmith

    “The Marines do cost a bit too much as while if you compare them to other chapters they fit within the “point” range for what they get – they should have had a discount a bit to make the army a bit better.”

    Or maybe thy should be pointed appropriately to reflect their utility in the game? Of course, that would need to be applied right across the board to all the Codices.

    • Sure

      Lol, you have to hand it to the Goat, though. He’s completely honest in his review. (Honesty is not the same as fairness, consistency, or reasonableness)

    • MPSwift

      Logic has no power here.

    • Ha. I’d prefer all Marines just go up in cost.
      This the whole Death Watch is a joke anyway. Super alien killers in a game with out super killer aliens.
      Now, if only the rumors are true.. Looks out Deathwatch! Power Klaws will be D-Weapons soon! lol.

    • Gorsameth

      Its both really. GK’s have the same problem. A marine is already ‘expensive’ and so all the ‘Marine but better armies’ like Grey Knights and Deathwatch suffer from the fact that if costed appropriately you simply don’t get enough bodies on the table.

      I think it comes down to how damage works. There are so many weapons that remove lots of tough models with ease that ‘small but elite’ just doesn’t work without invul saves.

      You can be twice as good as a space marine and cost twice as much but your going to die just as quick.
      And there in lies the problem.

      • euansmith

        GW should really have a go at working out some method of costing their units one against another. I know that there is an issue, because GW makes some many units, with so many options and so many special rules, that, as it stands 40k, simply isn’t amenable to proper balancing. Maybe 8th Edition will be Age of Emporah, and they can simplify things.

        On the Invun Save point, I’ve long thought that all Space Marines should have one.

        • I’d honestly like to see Space Marine armies becoming smaller but tougher like that. Make them endure more, but lower the headcount. They’re not a horde army that should be close in numbers to xenos or guard.

          • euansmith

            Unfortunately, GW need to sell lots of Space Marines, so a horde army they are 😀 Of course, they could double down, and bring out True Scale Marines, with half the number of minis in a box at an increased price. That would make Rhinos extra snug.

          • Axe, it is completely contrary to GW’s whole business. They have to make you buy more and more models, escalate the scale of battles from skirmishes into apocalypse and more, which means that elite armies won’t do it for them.

          • euansmith

            Maybe they could counter act this by making all the other factions weaker and with lower points cost so xenos players would all be made in to horde players 😉

          • Stealthbadger

            I think they tried this with the guard formations. You need over 100 guardsmen if you don’t want 5 leman Russes. Conversely you need 15 marines as the core of the decurion, 30 necron Warriors? I think, however many eldar.

            Oh and orks need about 60 boys but then that’s right and proppa!

          • Mr_Pickles

            A Green Tide formation is ten mobz(squads) of boyz and one warboss, so minimum is 101 models. Max size would be 301+ (Independent Characters can be added, like Pain boyz) A Maxed Green Tide can easily get to/over 2,200 points.

          • Matt Mo

            20 Necron Warriors for a decurion minimum

          • Hedwerx

            Like halfway through RT, Marines got a toughness boost because the new armies they’d brought out could kill them too easily.

        • Used to be 1 marine was worth about 3 Orks. I’d like to see them go back in that direction. If I recall that points scale was not including extra weapons and equipment. So I think Marines need to move up to about 20 or more points each. they were just a little too expensive in 2nd edition at 300 points a squad for what they didn’t do because of game play. But 25 to 30 points for a current Marine in the current system they still preform, with a slight learning curve.
          Which would cause crying because “No one like the “troop tax” “. Suddenly Orks get just a bit better.
          I’m not sure how many people have noticed that all the free equipment, before the free transports, and the other codex nerfs have made basic marines much better than they ever were. With out having to pay for it!
          Oh well.

          • euansmith

            Space Marines Special Rule: And They Shall Know No Shortage Of Grenades. 😀

          • Also, being able to regroup with in 6″ of an enemy model. Sure every body gets it but I’m not sure who benefits from it the most.
            It’s a very Space Marine/Imperial edition.
            lol. #Nofixinsight.

          • Benderisgreat

            Yeah, but 30 orks charging 10 marines still generally turns into a massacre….

          • Mr_Pickles

            is that the normal situation though? 30 Ork Sluggas (29 boyz, 1 nob) charging a 10 man Marine Tactical Squad. When will this take place? With all the different variables in a 6 round battle, when will an untouched mob of Orks get that charge off on an untouched unit of Tactical Marines? This scenario seems like an extremely rare occurrence.

          • Benderisgreat

            To be fair, since according to those Goatboy lists people only use squads of Knights anyway, you’re unlikely to see any of this stuff at all.

            Because 40k is now a crappy version of Battletech, apparently.

          • It’s a fair point but I think it depends.
            Most tournament Marines I’ve seen don’t tend to favor 10 Marines in a squad.
            There is not easy fix I think. I don’t think Marines are really the problem, just a symptom of the problem. Or at least who I’m kicking on the internet today.

    • Benderisgreat

      500-point Wave Serpents, anyone?

    • wibbling

      Yeah, i caught that as well. Surely is people bang on about ‘balance’ you shouldn’t want cheaper units just to make them ‘better’ but to reflect their value. Ah well, the mind of a ‘waac’ gamer.

  • euansmith

    “Your time with us is at an end, brother, and now you will return to your own chapter.”

    “But I don’t want to go. This black armour looks so cool and it really is slimming. I don’t want to go back to wearing frellin’ Imperial Fist Yellow! It adds inches to your waist and it clashes with everything!”

  • “Initial List thoughts that might work.
    Knights + DW CAD + Assassin
    Baronial Court
    Knight Warden
    Knight Gallant
    Knight Gallant”

    Wait… wat. I thought you’re talking Deathwatch lists.

    • MPSwift

      ^This… so much this.

    • Does it count as “working” if no Xenos turn up for a game?
      Or should I say still count as working…

    • Stealthbadger

      Goat boy list 101:- discuss token new unit. Add four knights because it ‘might be fun to try’. New fluffy list complete.

    • Benderisgreat

      Warlord Titan
      1 5-man Deathwatch Squad.

      Profit?

  • MPSwift

    GW release one of the most customisable, varied, interesting factions of recent years with the ability to create an army of characters and heroes of the Imperium. Goatboy’s response:

    DeathWatch CAD
    Librarian
    Veteran Squad X 5, Frag Cannon X 2, Drop Pod
    Veteran Squad X 5, Frag Cannon X 2, Drop Pod
    Veteran Squad X 5, Frag Cannon X 2, Drop Pod

    Facepalm… facepalm so hard.

    Followed by:

    Core
    Aquila Kill Team – 325
    Librarian, Force Axe
    Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
    DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
    DW Biker X 1

    Aquila Kill Team –
    Librarian, Force Axe
    Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
    DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
    DW Biker X 1

    Aquila Kill Team –
    Librarian, Force Axe
    Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
    DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
    DW Biker X 1

    Aquila Kill Team –
    Librarian, Force Axe
    Veterans X 5, Frag Cannon X 2,
    DW Terminator X 1, Cyclone ML
    DW Biker X 1

    THE SPAM… IT BURNS!!!!

    • SYSTem050

      SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM EGGS SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM CHIPS SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

      • MPSwift
      • Horus84cmd

        We’re Knights of the Round Table,
        We dance when ere we’re able,
        We do routines and chorus scenes
        With footwork impeccable.
        We dine well here in Camelot,
        We eat ham and jam and spam a lot.

        • SYSTem050

          On second thought , let’s not go to goat boys mind. ‘Tis a silly place

          • MPSwift

            What have I started…. o.0

          • Horus84cmd

            What… is your favourite colour?

          • SYSTem050

            Black! No wait silver argggh

          • Horus84cmd

            What… is the air-speed velocity of an unladen Corvis?

          • SYSTem050

            Jericho or koronos?

          • Horus84cmd

            Huh? I… I don’t know that. AUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHH!!

    • nurglitch

      That’s what happens when you push for variety. Some things are, for lack of a better term, ‘better’ which means that much of that variety is not a live option but dead on arrival. Better to have two or three live options than one live options and a bunch of sub-optimal choices.

      • MPSwift

        Perhaps… but when the author says, and I’m quoting directly here; “I think there is a lot of customizable play with this army and the way you build “units”. It reminds me how fun it was to mix and match armor with the Space Wolf army.” and then produces the above cookie-cutter, spam filled “lists” there’s a bit of a flaw somewhere in the article!

        • nurglitch

          Copy-pasta & spam is pretty much the menu for Goatboy 40k though.

          • MPSwift

            Fair. Got to at least give him points for consistency if not imagination.

    • wibbling

      Yup, but then with so many people frantically searching for a way to prove their ego in a game of toy soldiers, what did you expect?

  • Hades

    I understand competitive vs hobby list building but do you not get bored building the same units again and again?

    • euansmith

      I think that Goatboy takes the eminently sensible approach of proxying everything with his “Counts As Everything” Space Goats. I can’t imagine that he has the time to run a professional painting service, list build AND make an new army every time a Codex drops.

      • Hades

        How sad for the poor bugger

  • ZeeLobby

    And this is the problem with allies…

    • OldHat

      You sure its the Allies that is the issue, not the listbuilder? Because I know folks who use allies to reflect the 40k universe (Marines fighting alongside Guard, for instance) and there is no issue there. Whereas when you go 4 Knights + whatever flavor of the month, it is a bit… disappointing.

      • Djbz

        I think it’s a combination of both.

      • ZeeLobby

        I agree with Djbz, it’s definitely a combo of both. But all allies really do is allow for competitive abuse. GW already provided unbound for people who want to run anything with anything. I guess I’d prefer if GW simply did what they’re doing with AoS, and made separate gaming formats for match play vs fun play. I’ve seen way too many “fun” play lists which abuse allies to win. Likewise, tournaments are currently ruined with the ally system, as some factions simply don’t have the options to ever win an event.

        In competitive play it’d be easy to say “you want these allies, here’s a point tax”. I’d be fine with that.

        Who knows, 8th is coming, one day, so maybe that will fix this mess.

        • OldHat

          See, this isn’t nice. Now I am going to be disappointed when 8th hits and it is just 7th Ed with the FAQs added. 🙁

          But yes, if they went the AoS route (who would have imagined that phrase a year ago!?), I think 40k would be better. I love that there are campaign books with thematic formations that aren’t eligible for Matched Play, because they have no points. Man, that was a great decision! And all the Battalions eligible for matched play have a cost.

          I just hope all this scuttlebutt about 8th inbound proves true and we see the recurring theme of 40k-taking-after-Fantasy continue with a solid “End Times” style event that shoves the storyline forward a bit (40k can never truly blow up like WHFB did), leads to some new, solid releases of models, and culminates in a new rule set.

          • ZeeLobby

            THAT sounds awesome. I just want one thing from GW before I can sign off on them being the best wargame maker out there. Consistency. If they can show that they can consistently balance the game, and make all factions fun to play, in both competitive and non-competitive environments, they will once again be my favorite company. it’ll take effort, but I hope they do it.

            Right now I know too many non-competitive players who’ve just shelved their armies and moved on to other games because they either A) never get any cool new toys like the Imperials, or B) Have what always seems to be an uphill battle in every game.

            I don’t want everything to be perfectly balanced. I just want Orks/DE/CSM/etc to be able to get excited about their faction throughout the year because of releases for THEIR faction, not because of things they can just ally in. I really like the way PP/Corvus Belli/etc. does releases, as throughout the year, every faction gets a spreading of new models/units, which electronic rules make possible. Now that GW is moving that way, I really hope they do less “here’s your whole army, now wait 10 yeears for the next update” and more “Orks, SMs, AM and Tyranids are all getting a new model this month”.

            I know that’s not their style, but it’d be cool to see, and would keep players of those factions interested.

        • Master Avoghai

          ahahahahah
          “GW already provided unbound ”
          Like if Unbound was something that needed to be provided…
          People did use Unbound for decades… They did not need GW to say “it(s official”…
          Now Unbound is the “easy answer” of GW when there’s a bug in codex.
          Deathwing is unplayable? Play unbound
          Arlies lacks an HQ to be played and their formations suck? Play unbound

          I agree that the allied system should forbid battle brothers to joinsquads and more drawbacks for other type of alliance… But invocating the dumb unbound creation is not helping to make evolve the game in a good direction…

          • ZeeLobby

            But if you’re playing for “fun” which is why all these people love allies, formations, etc. What’s wrong with playing unbound? The whole point of restrictions, whether they’re point values or force orgs, is to add balancing factors to the game. Clearly it is unbalanced now, but why couldn’t “fun” players play unbound, while match players get actual balance…

            In the end it comes out to fun players who want to make “fun” lists, but only if they win a lot. Which they’ll never admit, but that’s the only justification for allies, formations, etc. that they have.

          • Master Avoghai

            I’ve never said playing unbound should be prohibited. I’ve laughed of this presented like a new outcome of the 7th.
            Players already discussed to respect or not org charts even before the term “unbound” was created…
            The only reason why GW introduced this term was to allow their redshirt to tell a kid : “sure, you can field a riptide with your wraithknight” => the type of play you seem to hate.
            Also : this leaded GW to not balance their games as now, if you feel that your codex is unbalanced, they always answer with the “play unbound” button.

            Also there are not “fun players” and “tourny players”. There are lots of shades of players. It just seems that thanks to the development of the game are just “players who want an original army and play it wherever they like”. They move, they play in different places, and they want to set up the game easily and not pass 1hour to negociate with opponent to see if army list is okay.
            So yeah they want to be able to play a legal IG army with an inquisitor.
            They want to play Deathwatch army rescuing adeptus mechanicus against a tyranid army with genestealer cult in a 2 hour play for a game in a store with someone they didn’t know.
            The want to play Legion of the damned arriving to save a white scars army agains a chaos space marine receiving a demonic help…
            If you kill the ally system, you kill those nice possibilities for nice games.

            On the other hand. If you modify the allies special rules to prevent a SM captain joining a platoon of IG, and also, drop the possibility to transfer 90% of the USR to a unit, you’ll resolve the majority of dumb alliances and stupid combo without altering the possibility of original lists.

          • wibbling

            Unbound is not ‘dumb’ if you want to play a fun game. If you want to play 8 bloodthirsters, you can. It’s about making the game interesting without chaining yourself up.

          • Master Avoghai

            It’s dumb when people say it’s a 7th edition feature whereas it existed since the creation of 40k… We didn’t need GW allowance to do so. We had a chat with people we trust in and we had a fun game… No need to write it in a book.
            But at that time, a Noob who started was introduced to the game with the CAD and used to learn the game with the basics.
            Now a noob enter a game and GW can tell him “sure, buy this imperial knight, it will be impressive in your army since you already field a riptide and a storm raven”

            It’s also dumb when GW makes the Deathwing autoloosing with their special detachment whereas it was a stand alone army for 20 years, and all the answer you get from GW is “play them Unbound”

            Unbound is fine for casual game or campaign games with people you trust. It’s not the way to learn playing or to have a random game in a store.

            Unbound is not dumb : It’s people willing to make it the new way to play who are…

        • Jared McWilliams

          The problem with allies isn’t the abuse they bring, its the format tournaments play in.

          Often allies are powerful because tournaments do not allow repeats of formations/detachments. Repeats of formations detachments benefits armies other than SM the most. SM benefit from allies system the most, with having the most battle brothers by a long stretch compared to other factions. This ends up with SM, aka the good humans players having a HUGE variety of formations/detachments they can take to cover various things- and they end up being able to get repeats of things by picking things which are essentially the same function from different factions in different formations. Other factions cannot do this.

          The largest balance problem in 40k between factions is caused by tournament players/organizers catering to said tournament players- because of this.

          People would begin to see more competitive builds for non SM/Eldar factions if repeat formations were allowed. This of course would also include spam, because 40k also has the problem that some of the units seem balanced, and some seem either vastly subpar or amazing. There is just no playability reason to take certain units.

      • shiwan

        It’s the designers job to make sure that the game is fair for all parties OR if it’s deliberately not fair then the designer should announce that too. GW never told us it intended to make the game unbalanced to the point of it not being playable nor did they fix it after it became apparent that it is.

        • wibbling

          The game is perfectly playable. If you’re going to twist it backward until it breaks that’s your responsibility.

          They do test the game: it is impossible to test every variation possible. Ultimately, it isn’t the designer that makes systems unfair. It is the player.

          Same with a mug: the potter isn’t responsible for your pouring hot water over your head because you’ve upended it. Trying to avoid responsibility for your actions or deflect them is immature. Man up, be a better gamer.

          • Master Avoghai

            No they do not playtest the game : making a couple of battle is not “playtesting”. They are 3 or 4 game conceptors. Those guys also write up novels, work on several projects of army, paint their own, write up articles for WD, have family life, holidays, they also sleep and eat…
            How do you want those guys making playtests the hard way with so many occupations?

            GW admitted they don’t make games, but models. Game is just for them an excuse to produce more models… They don’t care about the game being balanced or not. With such a market orientation, you won’t pay people to playtest hard.

            Conceptors have just an experience of gaming like we all have after 20 years of gaming and they do know that giving a 2+ armour to a guy make it more expensive as a 4+. Then they try to make balance options that fit the sprues (don’t forget the models are created BEFORE the rules). They chat together to see if there’s any troubles. Remove some they identified then send the thing for printing.

      • wibbling

        Allies brought in for fluff are fine. Most people who bang on about ‘balance’ and ‘competitive’ are the ones who twist everything (such as taking a formation out of book without the core) for advantage.

        • Master Avoghai

          Taking a formation without the core can be also very fluffy.
          Until this weekend I used to play my deathwatch as a “1st company task Force” from codex SM : perfectly fluffy and representative.
          I play this formation alone with an inquisitorial detachment of Ordo Xenos…

  • Its funny goatboy is saying “we all knew the answers too” some FAQ questions, when he’s been one of the people who frequently forgets army building restrictions or “powergames” through loopholes.

    By the by, most of the 40k rumors we got the past year or two have actually come to fruition. The only thing that is doubtful is the timetable.

  • OldHat

    Relegated, not regulated. Yep, being that guy right now.

    • Lee Williams

      How many times can I upvote this? I couldn’t even keep reading after that. I had to skip down a paragraph or two just to get it off the screen.

    • captkaruthors

      Always glad to interjactulate my opinions…LOL

    • wibbling

      Thank you!

  • Jared McWilliams

    Bikes don’t give the unit split fire, they just let the bike split fire.

    Also for bad or ugly should have the corvus blackstar. It’s one of the only flying transports that has no special rules to disembark models while flying.

  • Defenestratus

    I do not know how you sleep at night.

    • Hedwerx

      Wrapped in a:
      Blanket and pillow
      Blanket and pillow
      Blanket and pillow
      Blanket and pillow
      Blanket and pillow

      • MPSwift

        Is it bad that I read this to the tune of Star Trekking Across the Universe? Speficially “There’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it.”

  • Andrew Thomas

    Got your uglies:

    1. Vanguard locked at Jump Infantry means that you’re going to have to run most of the Kill Team Formations naked or out of a Corvus.
    2. Special Ammo is only on Infantry, and no Frag Cannon on Dreads, so Dreads are a little generic.
    3. Your only in-book ground-based AA option is Flakk Missiles, so FMCs remain a serious problem.
    4. All of your long-range AT costs.