Sisters of Silence / Custodes In Tourneys: 2nd Opinion

sisters-of-silence-horz

Hey everyone, Reecius here to toss my hat into the ring of the Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes tournament debate.

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Over on our site, Petey Pab posted a great article about the state of Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes in 40k and what to do with them in the ITC. I won’t rehash that argument because it hit the major points but to give a CliffsNotes version of it:

  • (Obviously) we have new units in the game: Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes in the new Burning of Prospero boxed set.
  • These units have 40k Dataslates but without an HQ and Troops, or a new detachment to use them in, are only available at present in Unbound play according to a GW facebook message.
  • Most organized play formats don’t use Unbound as a viable list building option, including the ITC. Therefore, at present, you can’t actually use them in most leagues or tournaments.
  • The models are awesome in both rules and looks and some folks want to use them.
  • Some community members feel that no exceptions should be made for these units to join in the fun.
  • We must now decide what to do.
sistersofsilence

That’s the long and the short of the issue as it stands at present. The ITC specifically has a long history of changing it’s own rules (by community vote) to accommodate cool new stuff. When Imperial Knights all went LoW status (as they honestly always should have been) we gave an exception for them to ignore the 0-1 LoW restriction. When Eldar went all ranged D on us, we altered our rules to not prohibit Eldar players form being able to use their cool new toys. When Tau got units of Stormsurges, we gave them an exception to use units of Lords of War so they could get more than 1 Stormsurge on the table in a unit as that was their cool new thing. So to make a special exception for Sisters and Custodes would not be anything out of the ordinary.

culexus-looming

Some players feel that the Sisters are under-costed (and with the Swords, yeah, I agree, but that is hardly a reason to not allow them as by the same logic no Wraithknight–or any unit to be perceived to be too cheap–would ever see the table). Some players feel that it is a bummer that Imperial faction players get an awesome tool that is not available to all factions and I can feel the pain there. Off topic: Interestingly, one of the cooler rules changes that has been proposed by a gaming group on the east coast of the USA for this next ITC poll has been to make the Culexus Assassin have no faction, thereby being available to all armies in the game which I thought was a cool idea, personally. Let us know in the comments section if you like that or not.

Back on topic: many players feel that it is no big deal to include them for any number of reasons: they like the models, the rules, etc. I think the Sisters are a great counter-balance to psychic deathstars which are very prominent in the meta at present and to me at least, not super fun to play against. Introducing a unit that could help to counter that is worth the price of admission, but that is me. We’ve had some creative solutions such as: allowing them to be taken in Inquisition or Sisters of Battle detachments, making them Elites in any Imperial faction, making them take up a detachment and allowing 1-3 units of them and even the suggestion of them taking up the LoW slot.

custodesart-1-crop

Some of my own Team Zero Comp teammates have expressed that they believe the Adeptus Custodes provide the foundation for even more Deathstars and may contribute to the issue. I can see that as they are quite beefy, but my opinion on that topic (without having played them yet) is that at this point I do not see them providing a better platform around which to build a Deathstar than what is already available.

Many voices in this debate brought up the fluff and the fact that the Custodes don’t seem to leave Terra anymore, and that the Sisters of Silence are not very present in the game’s current story and would feel odd in the game. However, the last 30k plastic boxed set gave us Contemptor Dreads and Cataphractii Terminators and with a few lines of text explained why we now have them. It’s certainly nothing new.

Custodes Vehicle 2

Forgeworld has been showing off this awesome toy, too! What a cool model. Good looks aside, these models are clearly not a one off release, and GW plans to give us more awesome Custodes goodies. There’s also been sightings of other units and rules for them, too.

The point here being that there are some strong emotions and some good points on both sides of the argument. I sincerely wish GW would have simply given us a detachment to work with upon release and then there’d be no argument at all! Haha, but they see unbound as a totally legit way to play the game–and it is–it’s just not so hot in tournament/league play. I think now with how crazy formations have gotten that the fear of unbound may not be as well founded as it way (especially if you don’t allow CtA allies as that is where the really crazy combos can be found) but would the community would be ready to accept that? I don’t think so, but I could be wrong. I know for one I would not want to see a big change like that before the LVO, but perhaps for the 2017 season, if everyone wanted it, sure.

mack-Question

So, as I sat thinking about the best way to handle this something occurred to me. With the (amazingly funny) GW video showing us the coming of the Daemon Primarch Magnus the Red and all that has been hapenning and hinted at in the recent 40k releases I started to consider the possibility that there may be more on the way from both the Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes not only in 30K, but in 40K, too! Now, this is pure speculation and I may be 100% wrong, but we seem to be seeing a gearing up in the recent books and hearing lots of rumors of a possible advancing of the story-line of 40k. If that were to happen, who’s to say that the Custodes may not rejoin activity in the galaxy? I mean, thousands of years of hiding on Terra is plenty of penance! Sisters of Silence could join the party again, too. It makes sense for the game and the business of selling models to include these awesome factions.

prospero-sprues-1

Making plastic molds is also REALLY expensive. If I were calling the shots, I wouldn’t take the financial risk on one off, factionless units for my flagship game (40k) if I didn’t at least have a plan to add more to them at a later date. I would guess that with the crazy success of this release, it would be an easy choice to make more units to flesh out these factions. As their dataslates already have faction symbols on them, I would guess that they will be gaining reinforcements and we may even see detachments for them or including them in the next supplement which I assume will include Magnus the Red as we’ve seen him confirmed. The message on Facebook was probably the only answer that could be given without spilling the beans about upcoming releases. Yes, they have been created for 30k, but if you were running GW, wouldn’t you want to sell these kits to both your 30k AND 40k customers? You vastly increase your customer base that way, and therefore, sales. All it would take to breathe them to life in the 40k setting would be some cool new story-line and off we go. I think it’s exciting!

Am I right? Who knows! Only time will tell. But, I think the prudent thing to do in this instance may be to just hang tight and wait as my guess would be that the solution to this riddle comes to us from GW sooner than later. But, I could be wrong and that is the risk in waiting.

What do you all think? Am I way off base, or does that sound like a reasonable course of action? Do you agree with my hypothesis or not?

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  • Byungwook Kim

    I bought a box of prospero just for the custodians.

    If custodians become a full army, I’m starting it.

    • Zingbaby

      Sounds like 30K is the game for you.

      Still sad to see the ‘power grab’ of the so-called “competitive” scene so blatantly disregard fluff as they typically do.

      • Blight

        Well the custodes are very different in 30k. The swords are way better and make the spears look like a worse option. Though they are seperate units in 30k so no mixing.
        In this case I don’t see it as a power grab so much as people wanting to use some very cool models. Which if we are being honest fluff has little sway in tournaments and the fluff is likely to shift with the 13th Black crusade to have these groups take a more active roll.

        • Haighus

          The 30k version of the spears is better too though, it can gain additional attacks, has an Assault 2 bolter instead of a standard bolter and has better strength on the charge.

          • Blight

            But doesn’t have the same stats after a charge and doesn’t have the ability to deflect blows. Somewhat mitigated by the fact that they have a 5++ natively. More of a lateral move than a buff.
            Really the unit is a totally different beast and I can’t tell which is better. Though 30k do have plasma grenades. How do you forget to bring assault grenades?

          • Haighus

            Eh, I feel like actually being able to shoot and charge is a big improvement alone.

      • An_Enemy

        GW made the “hide behind the fluff if you don’t want to play it” a silly statement a long long time ago.

        May I introduce to you Centurions…Wraithknights…etc etc etc etc.

        • Zingbaby

          Except it’s not just fluff here, they [GW] actually took a step towards balance, like we’ve all pined for – and the first thought of the WAAC segment is, how can I break this?!?

          I love how suddenly, just this once, it’s about ‘coolness’ and not some disgusting power combo, which could easily be conceived if these are allowed in tournament lists. Gross.

  • Randy Randalman

    *cue MST3K music…* In the not too distant future…

    Custodes and Sisters will be available full-time in 40k, just as Deathwatch and Cults became as such. We need only a little patience for the new edition.

    Besides, they are still usable in Prospero and 30k, so it’s not like they’d be a wasted print.

    • Mike Salamandrin

      All the points for a MST3K reference!

  • Nyyppä

    To me it seems like the only reason why people want these to be allowed is that they are imperials….which is in no way a valid reason to make exceptions that other factions are not getting. If these were some sort of “off-faction” orcs, nids, dark eldar or (gasp, the horror) CSM the same voices demanding custodes and sisters to be allowed would be against those exceptions.

    Either you allow everything to everyone or you make no exceptions at all. The “middle ground” does nothing more than give more tools to the already broken factions.

    Less LoWs, sD and super friends etc. is more for the game.

    • Beoron

      SoS would contribute to that. The meta would shift away from psychic deathstars (including super friends). Custodes are just not good enough to have a big impact on the meta. But i like the idea to make the culexus “no-faction” as mentioned by Reece. If you do not like the “advantage” of imperial armies as BB in generell, well than maybe 40K is just not your cup of tea. It is more or less given by the fluff. Ask me as the owner of a tyranid-army (amongst others) about that… That being said I find the usage of words like “imperial players” very funny: I do not know a single player who only plays imperial factions. The term “imperial player” is an empy shell, invented to discredit opinions like “it should be possible to field SoS in tournaments”.

      • Nyyppä

        I’m not against allowing these and everything else for every faction. Playing vanilla 40k is the only way that makes sense in the current meta to be honest. I’m against allowing these just because “amprah”. I mean, that is the only argument here. “I want to use them as a part of my marines etc. because of game mechanics that make my factions stronger.”

        These people do not want to make the game less deathstary in general. They want to have more counters against opponents deathstars while not hindering the ones they use. The people who now have culexus at their disposal are not going to vote for letting others have it and will vote for letting imperial players to have the 30k babes.

        • Beoron

          Ok, maybe a have a different view of “these people” then. I always found the outcome of votes for ITC-rules reasonable. Also: when I discuss these things with other (tournament) players I almost never had the impression that they choose and pick their arguments based on the army they play. Most argue in the lines of: “what would be good for the game?”

          • Nyyppä

            Well, I’m sure there are those people too. Anyway, playing the game with no artificial restrictions is good for the game. All you do with those is shifting the point of brokenness. The restrictions that are in place now are not making the game better. It’s just bad because of different units.

          • Orodruin

            Absolutely agree.

          • Beoron

            “The restrictions that are in place now are not making the game better”
            I beg to differ, but maybe that is just a matter of taste.
            “It’s just bad because of different units.”
            I do not get what you mean here. Could you explain, please?

          • Nyyppä

            How is “this broken thing is forbidden but this other just as broken thing is not” making the game better? It’s different, but not better/worse. All that does is that it shifts the point after which things are broken. “Because of different units” means just that. In vanilla 40k certain things are way over powered. ITC and ETC hinder some of those and thus make different things way over powered in comparison. Same thing, different packaging.

            The game would be better if it was adjusted to the direction of more tactical play instead of what would be called “winning by face rolling” in computer games. One way to do this is to make only infantry scoring, dropping the BB from the ally chart to AoC and adding kill points to all missions. This would make MSU risky, kill almost all deathstars and make some of the more ugly spams ineffective. You’d have to figure out how to kill the rest of the deathstars but this would be a good start. Also I’m sure that there would be better ways to do that than what I suggested here but what I suggested here is still far better than the present systems that favor invulnerable blenders units and spamming.

          • Beoron

            I see what you meant now, thank you for the explanation.

          • I have been arguing the *very* *same* *thing* for months, but mostly after ITC voted to nerf Electrodisplacement…while allowing double surges, all the ranged D everywhere all the time, and some other atrocities. Either fix *everything*, or don’t — otherwise it’s arbitrary and comes off as allowing one person’s favorite cheese but not someone else’s. It’s subjective and biased and therefore, in my opinion, wrong and bad for the game.

            Having said that I applaud ITC for doing *something*, though it sometimes goes either too far or not far enough.

          • Nyyppä

            Trying is more than not doing anything. That is true.

          • An_Enemy

            My personal problem with that is that your main assumption revolves around BB being the cause for deathstars. The books that rely on deathstars now will still have access to deathstars and because you think KPS should be part of scoring DSs(even neutered ones) will still be the go to choice for a lot of players.

            You ever play a kill point game with Dark Eldar? I can get up to fifteen KPs without trying. So…the game would be better if the dude with five units(while capping of objectives because they’ll have more points to play with without paying the SW or DA tax) kills a quarter of my army and I have no hope of winning?

          • Nyyppä

            Most deathstars are there because of the mixed faction units. Not all, most. Try to make a ironpriests and TWC invisible without other factions helping.

            Kill points would tone down the MSU spam that would take the mantle of the most game breaking thing in the absence of deathstars.

            Yes, DE are bad. So are Nids, CSM, AM, Orcs, Sisters, BA, SW, Crons, KDK, Harlequins, DW…did I miss something? As mono lists not one of these can challenge the actual contenders. Very few of these can challenge the top dogs even with allies. What you are saying my suggestion would do to DE is already done to many of the factions I listed above.

            The way I’ve seen this multi mission system done is from ETC (I think). It has a win/loss/tie system per mission, meaning that winner of the kill points would get for example 4 points, loser would get nothing and a tie would bring 2 points for each player. Same thing would happen with tactical objectives and the secondary missions would be worth 2/0/1.
            The idea is not to kill MSU off totally but rather to give alternative ways to win games.
            Yes, DE would suffer, but the top dogs would suffer a lot more.

        • Muninwing

          i’m in favor of any groups having access to any of the assassins, provided they put the work in to convert them.

          i think that Nid versions of each of the four assassins would be really cool. the Callidus would be a hybrid, the Culexus an abomination, the Vindicare a needler, the Eversor a beast.

          Necrons could resurrect (no pun intended) the Pariahs for their Culexus, and do some neat flayed one conversions for Callidus and Eversors both.

          Provided it’s obvious that it is a unique model, it should be allowed.

          except by tau. screw those guys.

          • Nyyppä

            Sounds reasonable.

          • Ciaphas Cain

            Everyone already does have access, via the allies rules. You don’t have to be BBs all the time.

          • euansmith

            I’m all for this sort of lateral thinking. It places the attention on the effect (“Psychic Brain Freeze” for example), rather than the cause (The Culexus). I think it would help the game for this to be the general approach to designing units (“Here is an effect, now go and buy some boxes of minis and convert up a “cause” appropriate to your army.”)

        • An_Enemy

          Protip: A Culexus isn’t that great anymore without a drop pod.

          Anyone jealously guarding that unit is really sad.

          • Nyyppä

            Yeaaah, I’m one of the people who think playing to break the game is also sad.

      • Pyrrhus of Epirus

        ” If you do not like the “advantage” of imperial armies as BB in generell, well than maybe 40K is just not your cup of tea.”

        what an asinine thing to say. If you dont like the obvious built in advantages being able to battle brother with 15 factions vs 1 or 2 or none in some cases, maybe this game isnt for you, what a joke.

        poor game design is poor.

        • Beoron

          If you find it to be poor, do not play it. What is the problem?

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            i dont play it, i play a xenos army. and the 2-3 tournaments i play in each year i have to deal with the after effects of these never ending allies rules for the imperium. I dont know about you but i dont travel to an event, than refuse to play a guy because hes using cheap exploitable rules put in the game by GW. I would prefer the cheap exploitabel rules not be in the game to begin with

          • Beoron

            I meant: Why play 40K at all (on tournaments) when it is so bluntly poor designed and not-fun, as I seems to be for you? Play something else with a better game design (X-Wing?)! Or try and change the rules (through ITC-votes). Apart from that Xenos armies do not suffer because of the lack of allies (see Tau and Eldar) but because their codex is poor (Orcs, Nids,…). On the other hand, there are many imperial factions who do not benefit much of 15 or so BBs (Astra Militarum, Blood Angels,…). The good or poor design-choices lie more in the codexes than in the ally-chart, imho.

          • J Mad

            I play Nids and DE. I feel left out, BUT I dont want the Formations and new style CADs to stop, I prefer them over the old system, it is so much more fluffy and fun, the new GSC codex is one of the most fun written style of rules yet, I like the Necrons, Tau and SM ones too.

            Yes the free gear/transports and 3+ jink rerollable stuff is alittle much. The DA and SM ones was alittle much, but it seems they are learning, the GSC book IMO is the best written book they ever had, Daemons and KDK are also amazing (just remove Grim Ward from Daemons book).

          • Ciaphas Cain

            How do you feel Leftout if you play an Eldar Kindred? You have your own Mega faction Allies wise, you have 3 other guys who are your BBs (maybe a 4th soon?).

          • J Mad

            Really….. Ok, I’ll bite this troll response.

            1) DE and Eldar are different, Just liek GK and Ultra Marines are
            2) They play differently
            3) They have different aesthetics (I like Raiders and venoms, NOT Wave serpents)
            4) Why would I want to play my favorite army at 1/2 strength? Why dont you play SM but only take 800pts of them and 800pts of eldar then…. its the same feeling.

            DE are an older codex, doesnt mean I cant play them, Its just handicap atm. Doesnt mean I think Eldar are to strong either tho. But I do still feel left out.

          • Ciaphas Cain

            It’s not a Troll response. You said you felt left out of the BB club when they are one of the three BB block factions.

            You can say the same about all the Imperial factions.

          • An_Enemy

            Because Harlies are Dark Eldar squishy without the guns and anyone that allies Eldar in with DE will inevitably start wondering wtf they’re bothering with the DE portion of their army.

            It’s like telling someone that has a dead dog, a dying dog, and a mastiff that none of the neighbors want off their leash that they’re lucky to have three dogs guarding their house.

          • Ciaphas Cain

            Have you had a Look at Corsairs yet?

        • An_Enemy

          He’s trolling you. Any time someone says “if you don’t like then don’t play it” in a game that demands hundreds of dollars, man hours, and a heap of personal creative expression you can just ignore them.

          They’re not a person worth interacting with.

          • J Mad

            I didnt say I felt left out of BB, I felt left out of New and Improved books.

            “DE are an older codex, doesnt mean I cant play them, Its just handicap atm. Doesnt mean I think Eldar are to strong either tho. But I do still feel left out.”

            They are older, eldar (and other other top 3 are newer), Feel left out by having a old book.

      • Muninwing

        you’re using anecdotal evidence to belittle another’s argument — that’s a double logical fallacy.

        “Imperial Player” means someone using an Imperial list for their current, primary, or tournament army. it doesn’t matter if they have 8000 points of NIds at home. what matters is what you have to face on the tabletop.

        and right now, because the allies system is a little too permissive, exploits of multilist allies are big. meaning that if you play SM(DW/DA/BA/SW/GK)/IG/Knights
        /Skitarii/AdMech/SoB/Inq, or a full half of the options available, you have an advantage that the rest do not.

        and such exploits in use that much has a multitiered effect upon the game (meta) that creates huge problems for the concept of balance.

        • I agree that the extent to which there are imperial factions that can ally with each other is unbalance based on pure numbers. However the major issues I see (beyond imbalance between books is the structure of tournaments limiting the types of lists you can bring. What is a natural counter to some of the elite lists we see out there? Hoards. however because of time constraints you cant get enough turns in with a horde army reliably to take advantage of this. Saw an Ork horde face daemon summoning and even without slow play they only got to turn three, just before the ork got to assault.

        • Beoron

          “you’re using anecdotal evidence to belittle another’s argument”

          What argument? The argument: “You only want to have x in the game because you play y”?!

      • Ciaphas Cain

        You can already run a Culexes in any army they just don’t get to be BBs with non Imps.

    • Mike Salamandrin

      Hypothetically, what “off force” exist in fluff for any of the non imperial armies?

      • Nyyppä

        Custodes do not leave Earth any more in the fluff and SoS practically do not exist in the fluff anymore. These do not exist as an “off force” for the imperium in the fluff.

        • Haighus

          Fluff can be changed easily though. The Sisters are an unknown, their last prior known existence was in the 32nd Millennium, but it is not known what happens since then. The Custodes could easily be tempted into sending out isolated missions to deal with specific threats they deem suitably dangerous they don’t ever trust the Officio Assassinorum with.

          • Nyyppä

            Correct me if I got this wrong but SoS basically told imperium to shove it after they got treated….badly.

            Nothing good has been achieved by changing the fluff of this game. At least I can’t think of a single thing that got better because of that.

            The crusade has started. If it reaches Terra, which is the only proper way to handle this thing, obviously custodes will be there. Other than that thus far there has been no coherent argument in favor of letting people to use them other than “I want to”. Wanting to use them is the actual reason anyway and it’s honest.
            I like honesty. Not so much for excuses designed to get something that does not belong. Even less for changing the narrative to make things belong even though they should not. Making the royal guardians errant boys just to make the more widely available is a poor move from a company that has literally nothing more going on for it than nice models and cool fluff. To make either of those significantly worse is just dumb.
            Imagine if they went back to AoBR snap fit marines and dropped the present models. That’s pretty equivalent move in the context of models as retconning fluff to reduce the custodes to mere ground pounders.

            I hope they take the conservative route. That does not prevent people from using the units in their games and the rest of us get to keep the last shreds of respect we hold for the company.

          • Haighus

            Sisters of Silence disowned the Imperium 10000 years ago, and agreed to help them 9000 years ago. As in, the same time period as the entiriety of known human history so far. That is a huge amount of time for the Sisters of Silence to get back in the game. I reckon they would be well suited as Allies of Convenience to Imperial forces however, as they would trust or be trusted by Imperials particularly. Not to mention the biggest threats to the Imperium of man since that time period are appearing, including a Daemon Primarch the Sisters were specifically tasked to bring to heel in a bygone age. I think Sisters should be limited though, one unit per detachment or something.

            Custodes are a force I always thought it odd that they never leave Terra. How the hell are they supposed to get combat experience? To me, based on how they operated throughout the Heresy, it makes great sense for them to send isolated squads on crucial missions and to gain vital intel considering the dire events befalling the Imperium currently.

            Yes, of course I’d like to use any Custodes or Sisters I get in 40k, I just think there is easily fluff justification in a background setting as permissive as 40k. That is the point, that it is permissive and allows players to use their toys. Custodes and Sisters are damn cool models.

          • Nyyppä

            AoC is fine with sisters. Still going to have to accept them being unbound only for the time being.

            What kind of mission would be crucial enough to send custodes, would be doable by a squad of custodes and not be trusted to marines or assassins?

            Use the units. That’s what they are there for.

          • Derek Lee

            Killing a high lord that may or may not hold the reigns for the Minotaurs? Another high ranking cardinal that turned chaos or rogue and took an order of SoB with him and the SoB haven’t figured that out yet.

            Daemon Primarch walks through the webway under the imperial palace? Or Daemon Primarch that appears on Mars and tries to take the heart of the “dragon” that the Emperor took down.

          • Nyyppä

            Yeah, there are already more appropriate forces available for most of those tasks. Actually only the imperial palace thing warrants custodes appearance because that is what they are there for.

          • Haighus

            AoC? What does that mean? I don’t have an especial problem with them being Unbound, except I tend to build Battle Forged armies because I find they are more fluffy due to that generally being the rational around their design concepts. However, there is nothing stopping me from running formations just as Unbound forces too. However, I suspect the Unbound is just a stopgap measure by GW until they actually include them in some list properly.

            Hmm, I think a squad of Custodes is significantly more capable than a single Assassin or even a few squads of Marines (especially when considering their stealth and espionage capabilities, which currently don’t have any game mechanics of course). So I can see them being useful to dispatch as ‘overseers’ to important goals, either a clandestine team like an Execution force which goes loud during the one battle you use the unit in, or requisitioning local Imperial forces to assist them in their goal, and being there just to absolutely make sure the objective is achieved. Also, I think that the Custodes using missions as a way to get combat experience for their Custodes shouldn’t be ignored as a reason- the personal Guard of the Emperor shouldn’t be a bunch of green troops even if they are biologically and technologically awesome.

            I will use the units, doesn’t mean they don’t have fluff justification to use them. Unbound doesn’t mean a force should just ignore the fluff.

          • Nyyppä

            Allies of Convenience.

            The imperium has appropriate forces in place to do the things you see custodes doing. They have a job already and if the crusade reaches Terra that job has an in game translation. That job is to make sure the Emperor does not get in the harms way. That job is not acting as a poster boy for imperial action in some remote location of little or no significance. That job is not to go on random errands. They are the last line of defense, nothing less, nothing more.

          • Haighus

            The main ‘more appropriate force’ is Assassins, also a limited commodity based on Terra . The role of the Custodes is the personal bodyguard of the Emperor, and they have a lot of scope within that remit. During the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy they were doing significantly more than just garrisoning the Imperial Palace and shadowing the Emperor, and this is where the majority of their fluff comes from. Bodyguards do more than just jump in front of the bullet, good bodyguards try to stop the bullet being fired at the target in the first place, preferably by uncovering the plot before it even gets into position.

            In a galaxy where communication is unreliable and difficult, visually observing an important task has been carried out and assisting in that happening is worth more than some astropath confirming it too.

          • Nyyppä

            There’s also the inquisition, AM, marines, scions, various commanders of fleets and so on. There simply is no work for custodes outside the palace. It’s not that they would not do well outside it but there is no reason for them to be elsewhere.

            We are not talking about heresy here. This is about custodes in 40k. What they did back then is irrelevant. What they do now is relevant. Now they guard the Emperor.

          • Haighus

            Er yeah, which is what they did then. It is simply that guarding the Emperor is considerably more complicated than simply standing on the walls of the Imperial Palace. This is shown well in the Horus Heresy series, because the Custodes spend a lot of time preventing threats from getting close to the Emperor, even if that means leaving the Sol system. The Heresy is the biggest threat to the Emperor so far, the War of the Beast probably the second biggest. What is happening to the Imperium in 40k would be next on that list, potentially moving up to second above the War of the Beast. If there is any time period that could get away with Custodes being abroad after the Heresy, it is this one.

            There are all those forces yes, but none of them, except some Marine forces maybe, which have the same skill sets or capabilities (or extreme paranoia) of the Custodes, otherwise the Custodes wouldn’t be the Emperor’s personal guard, it would be some Space Marines or something. For the Custodes, most of those forces are damn untrustworthy anyway, only some Space Marines, the Officio Assassinorum and the Inquisition (sort of, the Inquisition is more useful than trustworthy) would be trustable, and if you need to ensure something is done, sending a squad along on the Mission too would provide eyes-on confirmation of a completed objective. I’m not talking about them sending entire companies or something, but isolated units.

            We are talking about desperate times, where the Imperium is really being stretched to breaking point, it isn’t a time to just wait for threats to get momentum and then face them. The Custodes understood this in the Heresy, they would be capable of understanding this now.

          • Nyyppä

            More complicated, yes, but their job is to stand on the walls of that palace. The rest of the imperial forces handle the stuff outside Terra. Custodes are not a galactic bouncer organization.

            One must also remember that in HH Emperor left Terra and thus it was natural that custodes followed him.

            Isolated units have nothing to add in anything significant. Chaos tickling some outer fringe planets is hardly a reason for them to go fight them personally, far less just to have a look at them. Remember that imperium is a slow entity to react things far from their heart and if custodes think the MAN is in danger they will fortify Terra to the max….which again does not mean that they are leaving for random errands.

          • Haighus

            In the Horus Heresy the Emperor did not leave Terra, that was part of the reason the Horus Heresy began in the first place. In the Great Crusade he did leave Terra, and the Custodes did act as his personal ‘Legion’, but from the Late Great Crusade the Master of Mankind retreated to Terra to tinker with his webway project and didn’t come out again till the final punch up with Horus, except for the odd appearance before the Heresy like the Council of Nikaea. Yet the Custodes did leave Terra after the Emperor no longer did.

            ‘Isolated units have nothing to add’ in that case, what is the point of Assassins or Grey Knights in many examples? Isolated units from other factions do make a difference, and this wouldn’t be ‘random errands’, but critical points that their prognosticators and astropaths have identified (they have access to the City of Sight) as highly important, and then a squad would be dispatched with the means to recruit other Imperials as needed to complete the objective, ensure the objective is completed, and then return with the assurance of having personally witnessed (and contributed to) the objective being completed.

            They are doing nothing sitting on Terra waiting for it to arrive, aside from improving the Orbital defences (which is pretty straight forward- just requisitioning further orbital platforms/defense stations/starforts/battle fleets), how are they supposed to improve on the fortifications designed and built by the greatest defensive strategist in the history of the Imperium?

          • Nyyppä

            Yes, back when custodes acted like that.

            The point of an assassin is to create a change through surgical operation. Custodes can not do that no matter how much they put effort to that. They’d leave such a huge trail of bodies before them that one might just as well send marines…because the result is the same one and marines getting killed, as much as it sucks in terms of spent resources, is a lot less hazardous to imperium than losing equal number of custodes.
            GK are there to fight daemons and are frankly more suited to that task since that is all they do. They do not go hunting Tau leaders just as custodes do not because that’s not their thing.

            What kind of a critical point needs specifically custodes (and no one else will do) to be doing the job when that point has nothing to do with Terra or Emperor? I can’t think of such a thing that can not be done by other forces of the imperium and does not have anything to do with their actual job.

          • Haighus

            Actually, the Custodes are better able to inflitrate just about anywhere undetected than any assassin except perhaps the Callidus. They frequently tested (and presumably still do test) the Imperial Palace for any weak points by attempting to infiltrate by any means possible, and they are fully adept at using stealth and subterfuge when it is required. One Custodes in such a ‘game’ managed to reach such a position as to be able to attempt an attack on Lord Dorn, in the heart of the most well defended structure in the galaxy, alone.

            Anyway, the point isn’t that the task couldn’t be done by other forces, the point is that the Custodes would not trust the other forces to successfully do the task, without ensuring that it is done by a personal Custodes presence witnessing and participating in the operation.

            Also, the task would be related to the Palace indirectly, the Imperium does have a cadre of psykers with a similar role to the Eldar Farseers who are capable of detecting future threats.

          • Nyyppä

            Giant man with a giant golden armor. Perfect for infiltration.

            Custodes are not a directing force of the imperium. They are not asked to do to do things. They are ordered to do things. The current order is to keep the golden toilet safe. To leave the post is to desert ones duty.

          • Haighus

            They don’t always wear that armour, and even if they do, there is a piece of technology they have access to called a falsehood which is capable of hiding a power-armoured giant, yes.

            Well, the orders are not really known, or who gave them. What is known is that the Custodes have barely left the Palace in 10 thousand years, and possibly not left Terra or at least the Sol system in that time too. In theory, the Custodes take orders only from the Emperor, and perhaps a Primarch, so when the Emperor was incapacitated, it is doubtful he specifically ordered the Custodes to remain within the Imperial Palace. Dorn would be unlikely to do it, or Guilliman, the Primarchs the Custodes are most likely to listen to, so who?
            In addition, the Custodes are involved with the High Lords of Terra and keep an eye on the politics and leadership of Terra, so they are hardly sitting back and ignoring everything.

          • Nyyppä

            Unless that tech also changes their physical form it’s not much of a disguise. It’s hard to be inconspicuous when the floor is crubling under your weight.

            Can or can not leave Terra…is in my opinion the wrong question. “Why would they” is better. Everyone else is doing their jobs better than custodes can so there is no point to go somewhere to just sit on their hands. Want to kill a thing, send assassins. Want to kill an army, send the militaries. Want to scare things, send the inquisition. Want to kill daemons, send GK…and so on.

          • Haighus

            So why were they leaving Terra during the Horus Heresy, when the Emperor was in the basement of the Imperial Palace and the greatest threat the Imperium has ever known was steamrolling it’s way to the Throneworld? The situation in 40k is barely different.

            The disguise of a falsehood is sufficient enough to allow both Custodes and Marines Errant to infiltrate past heavy security despite being fully armoured. I don’t know how weight problems are overcome, but the technology exists and it’s capabilities are known. The Custodes are capable of infiltrating using it, as documented in fluff sources, so trying to come up with reasons why it doesn’t work is pointless because the fluff states it does.

          • Nyyppä

            The situation is not even remotely the same. In Heresy the “bad guys” had some ways to actually achieve what they aimed for. 40k CSM has none.

            Back in the day many things existed that don’t do now. How do you know 40k custodes still have this tech? I mean, obviously they have because they are like marines with steroids and marines get all the good stuff, easier, in bigger numbers and in an improved form compared to rest of the factions….except Tau and Eldar. Is there an actual canonical note of this from 40k?

          • Haighus

            It may well not exist as a technology now, but then almost nothing is known about the technology used by the Custodes in the 41st Millennium. Barely anything is known of what they had access to 10000 years prior to this either. This week has given us our first confirmation ever of what equipment they definitively use in the 41st Millennium.

            Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade definitely has the capability to reach Terra, and there are many other massive threats around the Galaxy- Ghazghull, the Tyranids, the Necron reawakening.

          • Nyyppä

            We will have to see, though CSM will not reach Terra, not with their current gear.

            None of the other threats even remotely warrant anything that is related to custodes.

          • Haighus

            Games Workshop clearly takes the angle I’ve been promoting too, based on the Custodes and Sisters of Silence rules they’ve just released (see the newer BoLS article). “Golden Legion Task Force” would seem to be pretty much exactly what I was talking about.

          • Nyyppä

            And this is just one of their huge fluff change mistakes.

          • Haighus

            Also, nothing good from changing the fluff?! There have been loads of changes since Rogue Trader, many of them forming the basis of the current lore. Some have been controversial, like the Necron changes I personally think are much better, but by and large they have been good changes. Examples like MkIII armour actually being able to turn it’s helmet and Warlord titans having close defence weapons to things like Grimaldus not actually being the only survivor of Helreach hive, that being a propaganda piece, to new characters like Azorath and Sergeant Telion, to bigger things like all Space Marine chapters have Storm Ravens, not just two (which was a bit odd), and have more than 1 vehicle for each role, and interedting stuff like a Warp portal about to burst beneath Commoragh.

          • Nyyppä

            That is all true. I’m talking about bigger stuff. BA and Necrons being BBF, CSM legions just vanishing overnight. Such things. Things like reducing custodes to generic foot soldiers.

          • Haighus

            Blood Angels and Necrons are not BBF. They have been Allies of Convenience in two separate occasions in the fluff, which, funnily enough, is what that part of the Allies chart is meant to mean. Necrons are not unthinking automatons now, they are capable of making rational decisions, like when their forces are outmatched by a foe that requires a temporary alliance to defeat. Of course the intention is to turn on the erstwhile allies when the chance arises, and the same is true of the Blood Angels, but when it comes down to it, all but the most puritanical of Imperial forces will ally with most xenos to avoid destruction at the hands of a greater foe. Ultramarines and Tau has been a thing for several editions now, but people never seem to care about that.

            CSM Legions vanishing overnight? Are you referring to the Legions being broken down into warbands? There does happen to be a rather large chunk of background dealing with this situation- the Horus Heresy and the Scouring that followed it, which broke down the Legions considerably.

          • Nyyppä

            BA are BBF with Necrons. The exact same way UM is BBF with WS. That’s what the allies chart says.

            No. I mean that there is nothing, literally nothing left of the legions. Not a single CSMarine. CSM is now what nids are, a generic mass in which an individual is insignificant, in which an army has no history, in which a fighting force is faceless. That works for us nids. That does not work for the CSM.

            I wonder what would happen if SM got treated like CSM gets treated. 😀

          • Haighus

            The Allies chart in the 7th Edition Rulebook has Necrons as Come the Apocalypse with all Armies of the Imperium, so not sure where you have got Battle Brothers from.

            The rules don’t support it well at all, but the Legions definitely exist in a fragmented shadow of their former selves- Iron Warriors for example roam in warbands that roughly correspond to former Grand Companies and Grand Battalions, depending on how powerful the Lord leading them is. The Black Legion is capable of deploying at Legion strength. If you are talking rules, then yeah, Chaos Space marines have a hard time, and power armoured units rarely see the tabletop.

          • Nyyppä

            Best Buddies Forever…not Battle Brothers.

            I’m aware of the general status of the old legions. The point is that GW is clearly signaling that there are no Iron Warriors or other legions. The codex has one legion unit in it. One. Other than that there are no ways to represent legions. Even the BL supplement states that it represents random squads made of individuals or warbands that have no real relation to any of the old legions be it allegiances or tactics.
            In the fluff BL is capable of being a threat to at least parts of the imperium on it’s own. So is IW, WB, DG and EC. Not sure about the rest.
            And yes, none of this is represented in the rules. I do not play CSM so I’m not claiming that my assessment is 100% accurate but after reading the rules and the fluff the 2 elements just do not meet.

          • Haighus

            So two situations where Blood Angels and Necrons have worked together against greater foes = best friends forever… when both forces would’ve been wiped out without the hasty alliances. Have you actually read the events of the Cryptus war?

            Ah I see, so you mean specifically the rules. Well, the actual Chaos Space marine units with Veterans of the Long War is supposed to represent Legion troops, but provides no flavour beyond that between different Legions. The Black Legion is an odd example, because it got totally broken down and then gradually rebuilt by Abaddon after the Scouring. This has been the Black Legion background for awhile I think, they suffered greater than any other Traitor Legion from the events of the Heresy, with the exception of Thousand Sons.

            That is an issue with lackluster rules though, not the fluff being changed, which is when you originally mentioned them. Their fluff hasn’t changed at all, the Legions are just poorly represented by really lazy rules.

          • Nyyppä

            The rules = designer statement. GW has signed under the paper approving the rules so they agree with the “no legions exist” vision. No legions exist in present 40k.

          • Haighus

            That is a really odd perspective, when they do exist, just not in a way that adequately represents the fluff within the very same book that provides those rules.

            I find it especially odd, when you previously argued that Blood Angels and Necrons are BBF, which is explicitly not supported in the rules, but solely in the fluff in Codices. Legions don’t even fall into that category, they are supported both in the fluff in their Codex and supplements, and in the rules for Chaos Space marines, it is just that the rules for them are poor. The rules are not non-existent, the entire point of the Veterans of the Long War rule is to represent Horus Heresy era Traitors.

            By the same statement, different Guard Regiments do not exist, and they are all identical, because there is no difference between different Regiments in the rules. Yet they exist in the fluf, and more Regiments exist in the fluff than there are model support for.

          • Nyyppä

            BA are AoC with Necrons and the fluff has them bro fisting….so BBF.

            How are legionS supported by the fluff and present selection of rules?

            Different guard regiments do not have any significant differences in tactics and gear. Logically they are represented by one set of rules. With AM painting the models to represent the force really is enough.

          • Haighus

            Er, I looked in the 7th Edition rulebook earlier, and Necrons are Come the Apocalypse with Armies of the Imperium. Blood Angels are included in the Armies of the Imperium. Is there something different in a more recent publication? The fluff has them being forced to group together for mutual survival and then becoming enemies again as soon as possible.

            Legions are supported by the fluff in the fact they are still mentioned in the fluff. Not as complete units, they were thoroughly shattered, but that is a far cry from “GW is clearly signaling that there are no Iron Warriors or other legions.” or “No. I mean that there is nothing, literally nothing left of the legions. Not a single CSMarine.”. Chaos Codex, 6th Edition: Page 22 “The Shattering. Craftworld Luggannath comes under vicious attack from a psychically shielded fleet of Emperor’s Children.”; Page 23 “The Red Dawn of Iriad IV. Iriad IV, a fortified industrial world on the cusp of the Eye or Terror, is invaded by a tide of World Eaters.”, “The Green Death… Mortarion and his Death Guard make planetfall…”, “Molochai’s Folly… a coven of Word Bearers Chaos Space Marines”; Page 24 “Double-edged Swords… agents of the Alpha Legion infiltrate…”. There are many more mentions than this, Legions picked out in bold.
            Black Legion has an entire supplement. 5 of the Legions have special Characters and all of them can take units with Veterans of the Long War, which is a moniker that is supposed to refer to the veterans of the Horus Heresy, and the rule is to represent these veterans. This it does poorly, granted, but that is it’s intention. But when it comes down to it, the rules not supporting the fluff do not invalidate the fluff.

            Different Guard Regiments have significant differences, but those are really hard to represent now. In the old 4th Ed Imperial Guard Codex it was possible to represent these differences, with the Doctrines system. Now, it largely is not. For example, the Vostroyans are designed in such a way that every unit is supposed to have Carapace armour. However, this is only possible now if a player runs an all Veteran squad army, without any Infantry platoons.

            Kanak Skull takers are another example- they used to be able to take Infantry squads with laspistols and close combat weapons instead of lasguns, now that is not an option. Steel Legion could take a Chimera for every squad, not just the majority of them. Savlar Chem dogs had Chem-inhalers improving their morale. These things are all still in the fluff for these forces, but cannot be purchased now, the Codex largely just represents Cadian forces and how they are typically organised.

            Tactics are similarly varied, from the jungle-fighting guerilla warfare tactics of the Catachans, to the light infantry tactics of the Tanith, to the deep striking Drop troops of the Harakoni Warhawks. Again, all in the fluff, no longer in the rules.

          • Nyyppä

            Oh. That’s changed. I must have mixed that with 6th edition. I wonder what got between their pillow fights.

            Actually there are legions there that are stronger on average warband that marines are as individual chapters. Just saying…
            There is no support for the legions, none at all, in any way…unless there is something new that no-one has noticed in the supplements. My assessment is based on what has been leaked and nothing in that information has any connection to legions. The fluff states that there are legions yet the only legion that has units is the Thousand Sons. The rest have no units. This shows that in GWs “mind” the legions do not exist.

            Yes, GW has, during some time, merged AM from loads of sources. Apparently significant differences are few and far between in AM….or so GW thinks. The question is can you represent the fluff with the current rule set. I think you can with AM, at least with forge included.

          • Haighus

            To be honest, I think most of the “…or so GW thinks” can be more adequately explained by “…or so GW doesn’t think, because they have been too lazy to put the effort in to write the rules properly”. You can represent the fluff ok with AM, although worse with the 6th Ed Codex than the 5th Ed with the removal of the Heroes who allowed a small degree of the different tactics of different Regiments within the Codex, which has largely gone with the current Codex. You used to be able to represent the fluff far better however.

            FW does help a lot, Siege Regiments could be based on the Death Korps of Krieg lists, and Drop troops on the Elysian lists, although the Elysian list has little provision for Carapace armour, which the Harakoni Warhawks (the other major Drop troop Regiment in the fluff) uses extensively.

            The Legions don’t need specific units to represent them, in the same way that an Ultramarines Tactical squad uses the same unit profile as an Imperial Fists Tactical squad. What they need is some Legion tactics, so that the same Chaos Space Marine unit is different in what it can do when taken in an Iron Warriors detachment as opposed to a Word Bearers detachment. Currently, they exist as little more than a difference in paint scheme from each other.

          • Nyyppä

            I don’t think that GW does things out of laziness or absent of thought. The design flaws are so precisely all focused on the “evil” forces of the galaxy and are eerily absent from the “good” codices that it’s hardly a coincidence. The mob rule and instinctive behavior for examples are so clearly designed to make the force weaker that it’s just not an accident.

            There is no need for specific troops for different legions, at least not extensively so. That is true. I also agree on the tactics part.

          • Haighus

            If your hypothesis was true, you would expect a stronger pattern. However, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard, Blood Angels and Space Wolves (to a lesser dgree, they have caught up somewhat with recent releases) and Inquisition would all be less neglected and more powerful than they are.

            Necrons, Chaos Daemons, Khorne Daemonkin and Genestealer Cult would all be less powerful too, and not successful Armies. There is a pretty even spread of powerful and weak Codices across both ‘evil’ and ‘good’ factions.

            I tend to follow the tenet ‘don’t attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity’…

        • An_Enemy

          Sisters do exist in large numbers. People that don’t know the fluff keep propagating this myth.

          No one sees them because they guard the Emperor’s Black Ships. You know…the ones that scoop up all his psyker snacks.

          It’s 100% guaranteed that they’d leave the shipsame to apprehend potent or out of control psykers.

          • Nyyppä

            Are we talking about canonical fluff found in codices and such or the fan fiction published by black library?

          • Haighus

            This was only true during the Horus Heresy though. There is no 40k background supporting this, and Sisters of Battle and Witch hunters fluff states that the Inquisition takes on these duties now.

      • Haighus

        Demiurg, Kroot, Gue’vesa for Tau; Flayed ones, Destroyer cults and maybe reintroduce a Pariah faction for Necrons; Exodites and Corsairs for Eldar (they already have Harlies); Freebooterz and Savage Boyz for Orks; Chaos have several, but adding Nurgle and Slannesh daemonkin equivalents to the Khorne and imminent Thousand Sons stuff as well as Lost and the Damned; Tyranids have got Genestealer cult, they would struggle to get anything else short of splitting their forces into Vanguard forces and Main body forces.

        They are there in the fluff, some of these would be harder than others though.

        • Mike Salamandrin

          Now, when has anybody barred play of any of these models; because that is the the only way the OP makes any sense

          • Haighus

            Oh, I wasn’t saying these in any relation to the OP 🙂 Just answering your question of off-factions that could be made for other races than Imperials. I think it is high time they made the other allies-families a bit bigger. They will never match Imperials, but it would still be a good move I think.

          • Mike Salamandrin

            Hey, I’d love to see pain engines and daemon engines fleshed out, among other things. You don’t have to convince me on that 😉

          • Haighus

            A Daemonforge faction would be very cool actually, with all kinds of twisted engines of war.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    The game blatantly favors the Imperium at every turn. This is nothing new.

    If you made the Culexus Assassin faction-less, then everyone would run one because Psyker Powers are so powerful and useful this edition.

    • Runefyre

      Except for Blood Angels it would seem.

      • Sanguinius was rolling in his grave with the Angel’s Blade

        • Nyyppä

          Out of joy….

    • Agent OfBolas

      as a CSM player – I approve your comment 😀

    • Old zogwort

      It would even be worse…
      It would allow them to benefit them from obscure detachment bonuses and suddenly invalidates GWs attempts to keep them out of drop pod shenanigans.

      • euansmith

        No one in their right mind would ever share a drop pod with a Culexus; or, at least they wouldn’t be in their right mind after the drop. 😉

  • Agent OfBolas

    Well, you can use those models in every game with your friends – just let them know, they may appear.

    But tournament play, it should be restricted usage, just because tournaments are for taking score and placement, fun is less important than a score.

  • TB0N3

    Look at hte Cypher Dataslate. He can be used by any Imperium faction or CSM in the HQ slot… I’m sure we can do something similar for these (I’m a T.O. myself, and I would allow them as Elites in the Inquisition Codex. Is the best temporal solution IMHO)

    • Beoron

      “(I’m a T.O. myself, and I would allow them as Elites in the Inquisition Codex. Is the best temporal solution IMHO)” – Nice idea – simple, but nice!

    • Old zogwort

      Pls no. Leave my poor codex alone. They are not forces of the inquisition. The last thing we need is more players “playing inq” just for them. This codex already has seen enough abuse of players who just wanted to have coteaz or some servo skullls. Give them their own detachment just like knights and assassins.

      • Orodruin

        Do you feel like the actions of other players using your chosen faction impact you in some way?

        • Old zogwort

          Yes it does affect it to great lengths. Most TO’s only see Inq as a heap excuse to bring servo skulls or coteaz etc. This would not be that bad if it did not result them not taking the faction seriously as a stand alone army and implementing rules meant to prevent those free servo skulls that make fielding a pure inquisitorial army next to impossible.

      • TB0N3

        Well, don’t play in my tournament XD.
        Now, “By this Seal…” “By the authority of the immortal emperor of mankind…” Inquisitors have certain authority over imperial assets, that’s why I am thinking of putting them in there.

        • Ciaphas Cain

          The SoS may have even been absorbed into the newly formed Inquisition.

      • TB0N3

        It’s the only place they would fit while GW realeases a codex or some sort of detachment.

      • TB0N3

        It’s the only place they would fit while GW releases a codex or some sort of detachment. http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5c5a4e68634b75d3710e7eeba378dc7dcba3e1d24d3397197b0a619e08fe8853.png

        • Old zogwort

          So how many fluff examples do you know of inquisitors having the guts to file a request to lend the personal body guards of the emperor …

          You know that this is just going to result in the totally unneeded and unfluffy inclusion of a 3 servo skull excuse inquisitor + those units to any army.

          • Ciaphas Cain

            I agree, One Custodes being attached to an Inquisitor is fine, aand you can represent him as a Power Armoured Henchman. But a full squad? Really?

          • Haighus

            To be honest, I think it would be more likely the other way around- a full squad of Custodes walking up to the Inquisitorial Representative on Terra and requisitioning the Representative to achieve a mission they deem critical in importance.

      • Ciaphas Cain

        Cotez isn’t that big a deal anymore.

        I’d rather lead my horde of monkeys with a Conversion Beamer toting Xenos dude.

  • SilentPony

    Well your first problem is wanting to play in tournaments. Lets just get rid of that idea all together. Put it from your mind.

    Now, go get a 6-Pack, grab a friend and hit up your local Game store for an actually fun night of goofy Custodians vs Harlequins gameplay.

    • Hrudian

      This

    • Nyyppä

      I wish I was allowed to drink at the LFGS…

      • Ciaphas Cain

        One of mine is next door to a pub and some special Friday and Saturday nights the pub sets up a temporary bar in the store.

        • Nyyppä

          You lucky bastard.

    • Zingbaby

      A lot of these folks don’t have friends. Silent, awkward “pick-up games” and tournaments with no basic human communication are the only “social” gaming they get.

      There is no room for questions or discussion, just mashing whatever net-list WAAC monstrosity the ITC allows at the anonymous figure across the table.

    • While I agree to an extent, I have a virtuallyrics dead scene here. I had 2 people I could rely on regularly to play and one just moved.

      I also have 2 kids under 4 and under and I am the sole provider.

      Say what you want to about tournaments, but they are one of the only ways I can actually get in more than a game in a month and play a variety of armies, instead of just rehashing the same game over and over.

      • SilentPony

        I get that. I really do. Tourneys are a reliable source of games if nothing else.

        My problem with tournaments is that the people who play in them are almost universally giant POS who threw the idea of fun, enjoyment, and theme armies out the window in exchange for bullsh*t rules lawyering and technicalities all in pursuit of hollow accolades from other POS about being the biggest turd of all this year.

        Like taking the Armor of Stormvark and a Thunderwolf mount because even though the flavor text calls the Armor a suit of relic terminator armor, the rules don’t technically say so, so enjoy a 2+/4++ deepstriking thunderwolf lord.

        Or those insufferably wrong turds who thought you could twin-link the Serpent Shield on Wave Serpents. You can’t, and you never could! The shield isn’t a piece of wargear, its a vehicle upgrade with a shooting profile. Its the same reason you can’t master-crafted a jump pack to reroll Hammer of Wrath hits.

        And once you get to the point you have to play people like that, I’d sooner not play at all. Because its not in keeping with rules or spirit of 40k. You’re better off staying home and playing Dawn of War or Chaos Gate.

  • ctFallen

    I think you should use patience, I’m sure at some point with all the new 40k campaign books coming they will get a detachment at which point they will be available in battleforged armies. But right now they are Horus HEresy models that GW gave basic 40k rules for the fun of it. The way their current 40k rules are only allow them for play in unbound games of 40k, so IMO thats where they should stay, for now. Yes they are cool models and there are plenty of ways to get them on the table, first they do come with a complete game, then there is 30k and finally rules to use them in unbound games.

  • Old zogwort

    On the topic off removing assasin faction from the Culexus Assassin

    This might be on of the most backwards thing to do. I get that players want to field him but do not want to run into to problem caused by artificial detachment limitations. The logical thing to do would be to remove the detachment limitation or at least make room for more small detachments. Making hem faction less is the worst sort of quick fix possible. You suddenly undid GW’s faq that denied him access to drop pods and I can’t even start imagining the full range of abusive shenanigans possible by adding him into any detachment that uses a force org.

    • Pyrrhus of Epirus

      removing the limit on number of detachments is the worst thing i could possibly think of to throw into the game. You think deathstars are bad now? i can only imagine when you allow players to take the best universal special ruled independant characters from 8 different sources instead of 3 like it is now in ITC.

      • Old zogwort

        Just limit the things or combinations you don’t want instead. If you hate super friends just limit something there. That would be a lot more fun than limiting the number of detachments and thereby crippling Inquisition and ork players.

        Making them faction less will open a whole new can of nightmares.

      • Ciaphas Cain

        thought it was a max of two. Or has that changed?

    • Ciaphas Cain

      Yeah that 2 factions max thing is one of the things I’ve always thought was stupid in the ITC.

      I can’t run my Unified Imperial Assassins Army as it has 3 sources, Skittari, Assassins and Inquisition.

  • grumzimus

    Are they any worse than allowing a tournament to have a Baneblade or a titan or 3 x Knights?

    I heard stories of that happening in the latest Battle Brothers in Nottingham. Meaning a lot of armies just don’t have anything that can hurt it. Which I’m sure you’d agree makes for awesome gaming fun.

    So would these guys & gals make it any less fun to play?

    Not that I’ll ever see them (Embittered Chaos Loser) 🙂

    • grendal1989

      Man I miss seeing Baneblades…

      • Andrew Thomas

        So glad my favorite, albeit model-less, IG Superheavy is ITC legal, so I can have my Clover-stamps and Warboys too.

  • Why not just make a detachment for them. 1-3 SoS or Custodes. Make them allies of convenience for all non-imperial armies as well. that is until full faction rules come out

  • grendal1989

    Not really worried about either of these units being a problem. Custodes can be locked in combat with a basic Dreadnought forever, and as a Sisters player, I know T3 3+ Sv models are pretty easy to kill.
    I’d be pro adding them as their own 1-3 detachment. Keeps some limitations on them, can limit army construction because it uses a detachment, but opens them up for wider use.

    • Locked forever? Can’t they break off if they are unable to damage it?

      • grendal1989

        But they are Fearless, and fearless units cant use “our weapons are useless” to fail a moral check.

        • That sucks for ’em then 😛

        • That sucks for ’em then 😛

          On the other hand, what do all the armies do that don’t have AV11 walkers?

  • Mandragola

    My guess would be that GW will eventually release these models individually, along with a book of some kind that explains how to use them. That’s what they did with the stuff in B@C after all. These rules are placeholders. They may or may not change in the final release (I’d guess not) but they’ll probably get a clampack character or two.

  • Orodruin

    You know ITC players are gonna find the most broken way possible of bringing these units. This isn’t an insult, because this is essentially what the top-tier ITC lists are all about.

    However, as-is, these two units are for unbound lists. That’s where they belong, so keep them there. Just allow unbound lists in tournament play, and be done with it. Allowing one flavor of cheese while forbidding players from bringing equally stinky cheese with different odors has always been my main criticism of ITC, despite how awesome it is for the game in general.

    • CMAngelos

      ITC and it’s wide acceptance as 40k law almost is the main reason I stopped enjoying and eventually quit organized play.

      • Nyyppä

        Here it’s ETC. While there are many good things in there there are also rules like “you can walk through solid walls” but “you can’t end movement in a wall”. Half of that is smart, half of that is just blatantly changing the rules in favor of deathstars.

      • Defenestratus

        Not only that but the sanctimonious attitude that ITC players have regarding the rest of us filthy casuals playing a game that they clearly think they can make better really drives me up the wall.

      • Ciaphas Cain

        ITC is the only Comp System I will tolerate, but even then I prefer no comp.

    • Ciaphas Cain

      “Allowing one flavor of cheese while forbidding players from bringing equally stinky cheese with different odors has always been my main criticism of ITC”

      ITC to it’s credit is not as bad at this as every other comp system.

      • Orodruin

        I don’t know about other systems, but I’m not trying to imply ITC is bad or anything, just one aspect I’m not a fan of.

  • ZeeLobby

    And this is where GW shakes their head. Their first attempt to limit OP units in a long time and we make exceptions for them anyway…

    • Nyyppä

      You can taste the irony. It’s hilarious really. GW is actually doing things right first time in over a decade and all the people can think of is “how should we change the rules to make it worse”.

    • Zingbaby

      Nailed it.

  • I think easier, more durable access to anti psyker would be good for the game. Right now the culexus is just too easy to kill for his points.

    I remember when the rune priest was almost a mandatory addition because it was the only thing that could shut down powers.

    Mostly however I want to get the GW FAQ in. I see nothing in the FAQ that really widens the power gap but it certainly feels like it increases the number of playable units and provides us with a relatively consistent ruling that we can extrapolate to any other issues that come up(especially in the area of IC’s interaction with units).

    • Ciaphas Cain

      I was disappointed that the Dark Eldar and Necrons din’t get any anti psyker bling in their armouries given how much it is mention in their fluff.

      • Djbz

        They do have some anti-psyker stuff.

        They’re terrible/don’t work properly but they’re there

        • Ciaphas Cain

          Oh which ones? Not playing either army I missed it.

          • Djbz

            Dark Eldar have the Helm of spite (relic item, gives adamantium will bubble and makes psykers perils on a double if in that radius)
            And the crucible of malediction
            that hits each unit containing a psyker within a random distance once at strength 6 allowing no saves (but only one hit regardless of how many psykers are in the unit, and it doesn’t have to allocate to the psyker-hence not working properly)

            And Necrons have an adamantium will bubble from a canoptek spyder upgrade.

      • Haighus

        Necrons need Pariahs back, and with the Psychic Abomination rule like the Culexus and Sisters of Silence.

        • Blight

          I’ll second that. I really miss pariahs and really hope GW haven’t forgotten about them since Ward banished them. Perhaps we can post on GW’s facebook page enough they’ll bring them back for the next codex.

          • Haighus

            I think they would be perfect for a Necrons mini-faction similar to Harlequins and Militarum Tempestus. They are different enough in flavour to justify it- GW could make a new, plastic dual kit for two different Pariah units, some kind of Pariah vehicle/use existing Necron vehicles and a Pariah Lord and it would be a full mini-dex.

        • Ciaphas Cain

          Yeah and some anti Daemon tech as relics. They built a system of anti warp standing stones but cant have one antiwarp widget? wtf?

          • Haighus

            Could also be a good fortification, something like 2-5 Warp Pylons that can be deployed using the Infiltrate rules and have a 3″ Radius of Pariah-ness. AV12/12/12 Hp 2 Living Metal or something.

      • Andrew Thomas

        Crucible if you’re feeling lucky, but squatting Pariahs was a real crotch-shot.

  • The_Illusionist

    If you want to play Sisters of Silence or Adeptus Custodes, then you can. The rules for them are there, and you can play them in Unbound. If your local gaming scene doesn’t play Unbound, that isn’t a failing of the rules – that’s the fault of the TO, so just try having a conversation with another human being and sort it out with them, instead of whining endlessly on the internet to strangers.

    As for using the Culexus as a factionless unit, I think that’d be a GREAT idea for ALL of the Assassins – so long as you’re using a model appropriate for your army, there’s very little reason as to why (eg) Chaos couldn’t have a berserker-equivalent to the Eversor, or that Eldar couldn’t have a sniper like the Vindicare. An Ork Callidus might be a bit strange, but just paint him purple and no one will ever know he was there!

    • Indeed make assassins allies of convenience for all factions. Even if it is the imperial one, they are using the battle as an opportunity to get their target.

  • Sleeplessknight

    So, just exclude them from tournaments and when you play a game that’s not at a tournament. And you do play games outside tournaments. Ask your opponent, “Hey, would you mind if I included Custodes and SoS in an unbound army?”

    I highly doubt EVERY game you play is in a tournament and don’t give me any of this, “I’m practicing for a tournament BS.”

    • Ciaphas Cain

      I am so sick of the “I’m practicing for a tournament” rubbiush, no one wants to play fun games anymore.

      • Nyyppä

        Don’t play against them.

        • Ciaphas Cain

          I don’t, that leave my player base a little smallthough.

          • Nyyppä

            I feel your pain.

  • yergerjo

    The biggest immediate use with Sisters of Silence can be as part of an Imperium Kill Team .

    Maybe upgrade to a Sister Superior, maybe 2 flamers and 2 executioner blades. Mix in a 5 man Tactical Squad with a missile launcher or heavy bolter and maybe the 30th Imperial Marine. Could be fun.

  • euansmith

    Man, GW know how to cram bits on to a spure; but those Sentinel Blades still look hilarious.

  • Jared McWilliams

    Different factions should have different strengths and weaknesses. Many people like the sisters of silence because the idea of adding an anti psyker bubble for 75 pts on 40k is broken, not to mention they come with ap 2 melee weapons or all flamers off the bat. These are elites units that exist for factions that don’t have names yet, they don’t have any weaknesses in tax units that must be taken to pick up these units , allowing them as is for battle forged is wrong and imbalanced. If you want to allow unbound that’s one thing, but making special exception for some factions to ge unbound units is grossly unfair, and for a top tier faction just silly.

    I agree GW is smart when it comes to model production. It is only a matter of time before we see this introduced to 40k in a balanced fashion with other units that must be taken to get access to these elite choices.

  • TenDM

    I know I sound like a broken record, but Sisters of Silence and Custodes aren’t new 40k units. They’re Horus Heresy units that Games Workshop released promotional rules for. It’s a cross-over. Like if Heroclix’s Iron Man was given a 40k stat line in the next White Dwarf.
    The frustrating part is that you’re killing their ability to have fun with this stuff. You’re saying ‘if you release an Emperor model it has to be Battle-Forged compatible’ which means we never get a grossly overpowered Emperor model to have fun with. At best we get a boring, weak, high cost version because anything else has the potential to shatter the meta.
    Unbound was finally earning it’s keep as a buffer between the just for fun scenarios and the meta, and now this is pushing them back into their usual pattern of ignoring/disrupting organised play for the sake of fun/fluffy releases.

  • Andrew Thomas

    One word: Inquisition. That’s where they belong, and that should be a reasonable enough tax to get them onto the field without disrupting tournament balance much.

  • Morgrim

    Given that canonically the SoS HATE what the Imperium has become, they should be CtA allies with the vast majority of it. Imperial Guard, Space Marines and Knights definitely included.

    The only Imperial groups they may agree with are the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels, and the Salamanders.

    So why not make it that they can be taken as a special detachment, but ONLY in armies that are completely comprised of those forces? The second you add a Dark Angel to your Space Wolves deathstar the SoS are out of there.

  • BurpinforDayz

    Sisters of Silence are basically cheap Incubi with 1 worse WS.

  • Marti Barker

    Just to point out – for us Brits here, in the home of the hobby – Warhammer World, Nottingham is a regular tournament/event scene, and CtA and Unbound are certainly allowed. Although you do see some jetbike spam armies, loads of knights, superfriends etc., you don’t see anyone ‘exploiting’ unbound other than for potential fluff reasons.

    This may be because at such events, your overall points score is multiplied by your best game/most sporting score – i.e. if you do not get at least 1 best game vote (normally out of 5 games), then you will not be in with a chance of overall victory.

    This in effect self regulates with a very simple system. By all means, bring a list that is ‘zero’ fun to play against – stomp all your opponents – but you wont take home the trophy.

  • Nope, nope, nopey nope!
    In all honesty though ITC sucks and is one of the most hilarious and most excruciatingly painful tournament formats to watch. The room is usually filled with super salty people whining about how some other dudes stuff is OP, and the occasional actual fight.

  • MechBattler

    Formations are so overpowered that going Unbound is actually putting yourself at a DISADVANTAGE now. I honestly don’t see why people are so twitchy about the idea of Unbound being in tournaments anymore.
    An Unbound list is just highly unlikely to win against a well built tournament list.
    I also think it would make tournaments more enjoyable. Instead of seeing the same six or so basic lists and minor variants of those ALL the time, you might actually see people get creative and infuse some personality into tournaments,