40K BREAKING: Infantry & Wounding Preview

You can’t win a war without boots on the ground – GW talks how Infantry will have an impact in Warhammer 40k 8th Edition!

All hail the mighty footslogger! Games Workshop showed off how the big-boys will roll in 8th and today we get a look at how the little guys will work in 8th. Plus, we’ve all been wondering how the fact that “everything can hurt everything” will work – well now, we have a pretty good idea!

via Warhammer Community

One thing that is certainly going to help infantry out is the fact that everything can harm everything in the game. We’ve heard already that characteristics don’t cap at 10 anymore, so the old 10×10 strength vs toughness table was in for an update. In the new edition, there’s a simple but elegant system to find out what you need to wound:

“…in the new Warhammer 40,000, models in a squad can fire at different targets. So, this means your Tactical Squad can have your boys with bolters deal with that onrushing Hormagaunt horde, while the flamer bathes a nearby Lictor in prometheum fire, and the squad’s krak missile takes an opportunistic pop-shot at that onrushing Carnifex – just as you always imagined they should!”

Read the full article HERE

Okay – that’s some BIG news for infantry commanders. Those humble Lasguns might just get lucky and you’ll be able to knock a wound off the big stuff, but now you can split-fire! That’s huge! Infantry might not be the toughest option out there, but they can do stuff other units can’t do “…like hold ruins, use cover effectively and swarm the battlefield in numbers to claim every objective.”

That is starting to sound alright with me! I’m glad 40k is embracing the fact that it never made much sense that if you declare a shot with a unit, everything in that unit has to shoot at it. Why would my Tactical Marine bolters shoot at the Land Raider they couldn’t wound when I only wanted to take a shot with my Multi-Melta? Well no more! Plus, if Infantry units are going to be the key to taking objectives, I’m alright with that too. It makes a lot more sense than having a tank park on top of an objective in my mind.

Let’s take a quick recap at the stuff Infantry can do:

  • Hold Objectives
  • Use Cover
  • Wound Everything
  • Split Fire

And how about that new chart, huh? I think it works for me. It’s actually very similar to the old chart, but functionally it allows what GW has been touting – “Everything can hurt everything” and I think that keeps things interesting.

 

How do you feel about the role of Infantry now? And how about the new “To Wound” chart? Let us know in the comments below!

  • Dan Wilson

    Tactical marines sound like they might just be able to be used tactically.

    • orionburn

      What a concept! 😀

      I admit I’m a little worried that this will greatly bog down the shooting phase, but we’ll have to wait and see after a few games. Between the -1 to hit for heavy weapons & moving and shooting at different stuff this is shaping up nicely.

      • Blinghop

        I’m thinking this little bit of added complexity in the shooting phase will be countered by the sheer lethality of everything when it comes down to the actual playing of the game.

        Like you said though, we’ll have to wait and see

      • Koen Cambré

        Don’t see how it bogs it down a lot… you roll the dice for special/heavy weapons separately most of the time.

        • Simon Bates

          It probably won’t most of the time, as long as you have to declare all targets before rolling any dice for the unit. In principle a 10 man tactical squad could shoot at 10 different targets. In practice, I doubt they’ll have 10 different targets to shoot very often, even if you wanted them to.

          • Muninwing

            it is far more effective to focus your fire on one unit until it is removed, then target another.

            so the only time this will add extra mechanics if if someone has no idea what they are doing (the “shoot ten units with ten models, each one once idea), if you want to devote some resources to wiping out a depleted unit, or if opportunity presents itself (heavy/special/rest… probably 2-3 targets max… and can even be rolled at once with different colored dice)

          • Moonsaves

            Or, you know, you have a lascannon and a plasma cannon in a squad – the lascannon can shoot at the predator and the plasma cannon at the chaos marines.

            You can mix your squads for more variety and versatility, rather than having a full squad of anti-infantry and a full squad of anti-vehicle to the point where you’re done if you lose a squad due to a bad move or simple bad luck and now have no counter to one or the other.

            Also, even firing at a large unit and not killing it will cause damage in the fact that it slows down/has less effective attacks as it gets more wounds, so it might very well be worth trying to shoot at something you have no chance of killing if only to make it less effective in the next turn.

          • Muninwing

            well, you cannot have a las and plas in the same tac squad… though Devs would have more and would benefit from this greatly…

            what i was saying above was that in theory you could shoot at ten different squads with your one… but it’s unlikely to be effective, so it’s unlikely that you’ll ever see anyone actually doing this.

        • orionburn

          Just because you’re going to be doing extra rolls. Yes, it’s still the same amount of dice in the end but you’ll be doing separate to-hit and to-would rolls shooting at multiple units – even if it’s just bolters. It’s nothing major but will slow it down a bit. With the other changes (like doing away with armor pens) it should balance out.

          • mac40k

            I aways used different colored dice for special and heavy weapons anyway, so I’m not seeing having different targets requiring separate rolls.

          • Muninwing

            and since you will often be firing the heavy or special (or both) at a different target, you could easily note what unit is on the receiving end of what weapon and roll them all at once anyway…

          • mac40k

            Exactly.

    • They are going to shred T7 stuff now, I see why they didn’t give them an armor pen

      • Simon Bates

        I’m interested to see how this plays out. It’ll take an average of 9 hits (so about 13-14 shots) from Marines with bolters to inflict one wound on a Dreadnought (T7, 3+ save). That’s basically one tactical squad rapid firing. Thing is, that dreadnought has 8 wounds and probably doesn’t lose effectiveness as its wounded (unless GW didn’t show us its real profile, but instead replaced the asterisks with the starting numbers). If that tac squad also has a lascannon, that’ll wound on a 3+ (not a 2+ as we might have previously assumed) and allows a 6+ save. As it also has to hit, that’s far from guaranteed to happen. Assuming it does, it’ll inflict between 1 and 6 wounds. That means that a Las Plas tactical squad firing all out, at rapid fire range, has a plausible chance to take out a Dreadnought in one round of unsupported shooting, but probably won’t.

    • Nilok

      Tactical marines have evolved into Crisis Suits.

    • EnTyme

      Next thing you know, Devastator Marines will actually be devastating!

      • Muninwing

        think about this for a second…

        1. now there’s reason to kit out with variance, since you do not have to commit them to being your anti-armor

        2. now there’s a reason to bring Heavy Bolters (cheap, high RoF), missile launchers (utility), lascannons (expensive, but good for that one shot if they don’t need to be allocated to the same location)…

        3. now there’s a reason to take a full squad — because the bolter guys are not just there as wounds for the heavies. they can shoot at closer targets, defensively firing at the immediate threats while the Devs deal with the longrange ones

  • Theghost

    I guess the fact that a Las gun can hurt a landraider is mitigated by the new vehicle armour saves. Looks interesting. Will have to see how it plays. I like the split fire for all squads makes more sense!

    • Ulrik

      well, from 120 (old) lasgun shots should be average 3 wound on gorkanaut…not sure if best use of those 120 shots :))

      split fire is really good, finally HW operators have brain to target something useful.

      • Theghost

        So true. 120 Las guns shouldn’t be shooting a tank. But might come in handy when you’re on that last turn and need a miracle

        • Blinghop

          Which I will now be referring to as my hail mary(emperor) shots

          • Theghost

            Concentrate all fire power on… aim for its eyes, err lenses? !

          • OldHat

            You mean “Hail Celestine”?

      • Matt Halkos

        i rolled out 180 bolter shots and wounded the gorkanaut 12 times. granted there were some bad rolls for saves on the gorkanaut

        • Ghaniman

          still 6 more wounds to go! lol

        • Simon Bates

          Well averages would be 120 hits, 40 wounds and 13 failed saves, so that’s about what we’d expect. That’s nearly an entire company of marines rapid firing (albeit we don’t know how that works yet) at once though. Assuming the ork player has some actual orks as well, it’s a horribly inefficient use of firepower.

          • Muninwing

            if you’re wounding on 6s, wouldn’t it be 20 wounds? and from that closer to 6 failed saves?

          • Simon Bates

            Yes, you’re right, I was thinking of T7, so that’s 20 wounds and about 7 failed saves. 12 is not so very unlikely but we’ll above average.

          • Muninwing

            the dice always like to mess with us, reward our hail-marys and smite our sense of security.

            i lost second place in a tournament because i needed to secure a location guarded by a Tau… all i needed to do to win combat was to make at least two of the three 3+ saves they took — either his HQ (no gauntlet) would remain unable to shoot, or he’d probably run off the board if i didn’t sweeping advance catch him first..

            i rolled three ones.

            then again, i also rolled a stupid number of sixes when i played Deathwing in 4th… between the old rend (6 to hit = wound no save) and the 2++ (that ignored the first wound in the command squad each turn due to the apothecary), they were unbeatable if i rolled that good.

      • bfmusashi

        I’ve blown up superheavy tanks with a single plasma gun volley, I’ll make this happen too!

        • Muninwing

          if anything, that’s what i like best about this rule change. vehicles will be far less likely to get taken out so fast.

          makes me want to know the stats on IG vehicles, to start building wound counters for my Armored Company… i have 1800 points of just Leman Russes i’d like to put on the field. and i think they will do better, while also giving my opponent more of a chance (so i won’t feel like i’m cheezing them). win/win.

    • orionburn

      I have to eat crow because I was one that never thought bolters and small arms would even be able to wound something like a Land Raider. I admit I was surprised at that change. Looking forward to see how it all works.

  • Defenestratus

    Maybe now people will stop complaining about scatterbikes that they wound on 3’s.

    • Theghost

      But they still will? Most armies are toughness 3/4 str 6 will wound on 3’s

      • Defenestratus

        Right. They’ll wound on 3’s not 2’s now.

        Who am I kidding – people will continue to hate Eldar – its the evergreen metahobby.

        • Ulrik

          yeah…jinkity jinkity jink….die pointy ear boredom! ;))

        • Theghost

          Yes, sorry. But will still wound guard etc on 2’s

        • AEZ

          Pretty good bet that bikes will get higher T’s than infantry though.

        • EnTyme

          Well, that’s assuming the weapon profile doesn’t change, but you are right.

        • Donald Lindsey

          Depends on if they are overpowered and underpointed like they’ve been in the last 6 editions.

  • Goatsplitter

    My many cultists just committed a mass-suicide ritual in celebration of their new-found power.

    They were not a terribly bright bunch.

    • AircoolUK

      Close combat Tau.

    • Tothe

      Blood for the blood god is still blood for the blood god regardless.

    • Jennifer Burdoo

      They sound like the Suicide Squad from Life of Brian.

  • Simon Chatterley

    Simpler and effective. All good with me that.

  • Ian Chisholm

    Time to put heavy weapons in my guard squads 🙂

    • Theghost

      Time to buy a dev squad so I can add lascannon and mislauncher in to my tac squds those melta guns are going to be ditched!

      • Blinghop

        That auto correct did not like anything you had to say lol

        • Theghost

          Nope, swift edit there!

          • Theghost

            Although I’d buy some mental guns 🙂

          • Blinghop

            and a dev squad of last annoys! (Seems like a descriptive gun name)

    • Karru

      I’ve been doing that for a while now, but it’s nice to see them make them more effective.

  • Bryan Ruhe

    I love this!

  • “You can’t win a war without boots on the ground”
    “I beg to disagree *exterminatus*”

    • Heinz Fiction

      That’s not a win, that’s a draw, the planet is lost afterwards 😉

      • Muninwing

        it’s a win against heresy…

  • ZeeLobby

    Hmm. Will have to see stats/points before I make a judgement. I like that it’s simpler to calculate in your head, and I much prefer it over the flat to-wound rolls of AoS.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Agreed. This system makes way more sense.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. I never thought calculating to-hit rolls was all that crazy to begin with. It’ll be interesting to see how the to-hit is differentiated for like a guardsman vs a vindicare, hitting on 4+ vs 2+ doesn’t seem sufficient.

        • Patriarch

          The vindy might get to reroll his 2+, ignore cover, pick off the guy at the back… the sort of stuff he can do now.

          • Yes. What AoS shows I think is that two models can hit and wound on the same roll, but have completely different uses in game.

        • Adam Wright

          I never liked how the Assassins all had identical stats though. An Eversor should be way better in cc than the others. I know they used equipment to differentiate them but stats shouldn’t have all been the same.

          • Muninwing

            i think that because they are in the end humans, their stats are only going to improve so much… even with combat drugs, years of training, bionics, etc, they’re still capped at certain maxxes.

  • Dan Osmond

    Looks like plasma took a nerf against marines, if it’s still strength 7 that is.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      it probably does more damage and has a high AP. It will be fine 🙂

      • SprinkKnoT

        The damage doesn’t matter against marines and the new AP is less likely to completely remove saves from enemies. A -3 is still a 6+ for a marine.

        That said, we haven’t seen it’s profile and I’m sure it’ll be effective regardless.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          How does damage not matter?

          There is a huge difference between dealing 1 damage per shot and d3.

          • NIck Cathers

            One wound models.

          • Andrew B

            Terminators have two wounds now.

          • NIck Cathers

            And they aren’t MEQs? I’m not trying to say that guns won’t have their roll, but plasma as the MEQ counter looks like it just got weaker.

          • SprinkKnoT

            Damage does not spill over between models. Dealing 3 damage to a single marine is the same as dealing 1 damage to a marine. A key difference from AoS.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            With split fire, why waste your good shots shooting a tac squad?

          • SprinkKnoT

            The original comment was about plasma being worse against marines. Whether that’s good or bad, who knows? But it was always a pretty good counter to marines (at least until grav).

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            It still will be a good counter with AP. Sure they get a save but it could be as high as a 6+.

          • Fergie0044

            Still good, but worst than it is now (assuming still S7). Now its wounds 2+ with no armor save. This new table puts it at wounding on 3+ and will probably allow for a 6+ armor save.

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          there might be still stuff like:
          Rend -1 (jsut a random Number for showcase)

          And a RUle like: Unitswith the Infantry Keyword can not take Armour saves against this weapon – Or swapped were Tanks can not take a Armortest.

      • Karru

        I don’t know about the damage, I think that D3 will be saved for Melta Guns and such, it will have Rapid Fire and AP -3.

        • Mr.Gold

          or it might go to sustained fire (like SW:A)

          • EvilCheesypoof

            I don’t think sustained fire will be a thing, they will probably just give multiple shots.

        • Adam Wright

          Why would you think melta would be d3?

          • Karru

            If a Lascannon is D6, I highly doubt that they’d give it a D6 as well. Maybe something like on a 6 they do Mortal Wounds extra.

    • AircoolUK

      Plasma cannon should now have multiple shots and perhaps multiple wounds?

      I’m hoping they bring back dual plasma modes; a big splat or a concentrated beam. It would give the plasma cannon some much needed diversity.

      Also, have we had the plasma stats yet?

    • Iron Father Stronos

      plasma cannons didnt though. My god are those going to wreck tanks like they should. D3 plasma hits? Nuts

    • generalchaos34

      who knows, they could do mortal wounds, have a huge rend value, all kinds of neat stuff!

    • Heinz Fiction

      plasma deserved a nerf to begin with…

      • SprinkKnoT

        I disagree, plasma was in a very solid state in 7th. It even saw less use than it probably deserved due to grav.

        • OldHat

          If it is plasma, how is it in a solid state?!

          • MPSwift

            I cannot like this comment enough XD

          • Muninwing

            ask the tau, they can do all sorts of things with plasma that we humans can’t figure out…

        • Heinz Fiction

          plasma was just to good vs anything but high AV vehicles and anyone who did not have grav used plasma instead (and not meltas, flamers, grenade launchers…)

      • Ulrik

        Holy Terra, why nerf?? Plasma was overall balanced weapon, outshined by broken grav

    • Xodis

      It kind of had to with the new way everything works, but maybe “Gets Hot” is gone to balance things.

      • MPSwift

        ^this, with the new wound chart a lascannon would be wounding a marine on the same roll as a plasma. The 2+3+ gives it a good distinction. I’m aware they need the same roll in 7th but i prefer the difference, makes the lascannon seem more deadly which is only right and proper!

  • Emprah

    The splitfire seems good, the wounding does not.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Wounding is basically the same…

      • Karru

        Yeah, the only difference is that everyone can wound everyone.

      • Walter Vining

        yeah that’s what I was thinking but its a more simple chart to express the same thing.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Exactly. Way easier to remember and explain to new players.

          • Muninwing

            i never had an issue explaining the shift-off-from balance idea… that if it’s equal it’s a 4, and every step off from equal it changed by one.

            that was super easy to learn too. the real issue is memorizing your own unit’s stats when you’re just starting out.

      • Devourer

        No it is not. Before your chance to wound with S6 on T4 was twice as high an now. So was your chance with S5 on T3 an so on. Having S5 to S7 makes no difference at all now when you want to wound T4 marines. I think that is no good mechanic at all

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          S6 to T4 was a 2+
          S6 to T4 is now a 3+

          2+ to 3+ is not twice as high. You were wounding 5/6ths of the time,now 4/6ths of the time. That is an increase of +1/6th, or +16%.

          But now, none of your weapons are useless. Fair trade, really.

          Also, weapons have other dials they use to differentiate themselves other than just Strength. They have a damage dial that GW can fiddle with to compensate for any loss in effectiveness generated by the new wounding chart.

          • NIck Cathers

            “But now, none of your weapons are useless. Fair trade, really.”

            The change is an overt buff to low strength guns over high strength guns, especially versus MEQs. Not that I personally mind that, was kind of a while in coming, but I see how it could make a mess of peoples armies and favorites.

          • AircoolUK

            But high Strength guns are going to be far more useful against high Toughness targets.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Low S weapons have sucked for too long!

        • AircoolUK

          But it does make a great difference between T3 and T4. Most troop types were T 3/4. T4 now looks, er, a lot tougher if you get my meaning.

        • Simon Bates

          You’re right that it’s different, but why is it necessarily worse? Small arms become better at wounding tough things and fairly (but not extremely) powerful weapons are not as devastating to ordinary infantry as they used to be. It means there’s still an important difference between S3, 4 and 5 against T6, 7 and 8 (which look likely to be used a lot more now), but without rendering any weapon entirely useless against a given T value. Conversely, it makes the difference between T3 and 4 (by far the most common values) more significant, with S6 and 7 much more effective against the former than the latter. I quite like the idea that a near certainty of wounding should be restricted to only very large disparities in weapon strength/target toughness and conversely with only very low S/high T having the lowest probability.

  • Karru

    Here’s my opinion on these “changes”.

    First of all, the chart is simple, which is nice. It really isn’t a change to the old one, except that everything can wound everything now, not that big of a deal or change to be honest.

    All models in the unit can shoot at different targets. I can see that possibly slowing down the game a tad, especially with things like Crisis Suits or even Devastator Squads. A simpler solution would have been to make it so they can just shoot at two different targets. Again, not that big of a deal. It’s a nice change though, I’ve always used Missile Launchers in my Guardsmen squads, but sometimes it is wasted on a unit that the remaining unit really has to shoot.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      I think you need to declare what you are shooting before you roll dice.

      • AircoolUK

        Agreed. I also think that most of the time, your split fire is going to follow the example given. All your infantry weapons fire at one unit and your heavy weapon will fire at something more suitable.

        It will be a big boost to units like Terminators.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          I could see people gambling a little by having some bolters shoot at an almost dead squad, with the rest shooting a full squad, with the Meltagun shooting a rhino and the lascannon shooting a tank.

          • Simon Bates

            Occasionally, maybe. But really, how often do you have multiple viable targets within rapid fire range (assuming this is the same) of your tactical squad?

  • Ronin

    Now I can mix and match weapons just like the lore instead of having to worry about min/maxing each squad for efficiency!

    • OldHat

      This is what I am happy about. Now armies will look much, much more interesting.

    • AircoolUK

      Yeah, it’s kinda like the feeling you get when you take your bra off at the end of the day… er, at least according to the missus… I wouldn’t know about that personally.

  • SprinkKnoT

    It’s probably just bias from knowing the current toughness of things, but I’m weary about that SvT chart.

    The AoS shooting will be interesting though, will go a long with making people want to take a variety of special and heavy weapons

  • gordonshumway

    I am enthused about these changes. The split fire thing really helps out DE who had to either field a very expensive unit of Trueborn to maximize anti-armor, or worry about wasting special weapon shots buried in squads of cheaper Kabalites. I like it.

    • SprinkKnoT

      Yeah, Dark Lances and blasters are actually reasonable things to take in warrior squads, this changes everything.

      • gordonshumway

        I know, I cannot wait to add one to each of my Venoms again…and have them actually shoot at a reasonable target instead of just overkilling a space marine…

  • AircoolUK

    This is very interesting and unexpected. I think it will take a while to figure out how this will impact the game with regards to all the other information we’ve been given.

    I’m glad they’ve added AoS split fire. Sometimes you had to waste your infantry weapon attack to use your heavy weapon, and at other times, you got to waste a heavy weapon attack when you fired your infantry weapons.

    Good move all round.

    • ZeeLobby

      Is AoS splitfire based on weapon type? Or models?

      • SprinkKnoT

        Models, as is the new 40K system (at least how I interpreted it).

        • ZeeLobby

          And you declare all before the rolling?

          • AircoolUK

            I would expect so. To do otherwise would be, time consuming to say the least.

          • KingAceNumber1

            That’s my understanding of it. Declare all bolters shooting squad X, declare meltagun shooting vehicle Y, roll dice.

          • Simon Bates

            Yes.

  • ZeeLobby

    Anyone know if the split fire is chosen by models (5 bolters are shooting this squad, 4 bolters the other squad), or by weapon type? I hope it’s the former (as long as it’s announced before rolling). That way if only half the squad is in range of one unit, and the other half another, they can actually shoot something.

    • Tomoyuki Tanaka

      It’s by models, not weapon type. Warhammer 40,000 confirmed it on their Facebook page.

      • ZeeLobby

        SWEET. And I’m guessing you have to announce before rolling right? (otherwise you get bogged down in the shooting 1 bolter at a time).

        • SprinkKnoT

          Yeah, you announce first in AoS at least.

          • ZeeLobby

            OMG. They wrote a good rule, haha. I mean I’ve felt like that should be the rule since I started in 3rd, but I’m glad it’s finally here, haha.

        • Tomoyuki Tanaka

          Probably, but you can crack open a transport with your anti-vehicle weapon (meltaguns or missile launchers) and have the rest of your squad shoot their lasguns at the passengers who are forced to disembark.

          • SprinkKnoT

            Maybe? We don’t know for sure yet. While that’d be cool cause there’s always the risk you don’t pop the transport and waste all you bolter shots, I don’t find it very likely.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, My guess is it’ll be considered to happen simultaneously.

          • Tomoyuki Tanaka

            Um, that’s what Warhammer 40,000 said on their Facebook page.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I’d be fine with that, as long as you stated you were going to fire at the guys in the vehicle ahead of time. If you didn’t, then I wouldn’t think you’d get to pick a new target. At least I hope that’s not the case.

          • Fergie0044

            Yea – its offers a nice risk/reward dynamic that way.

          • Simon Bates

            Yeah, perhaps if a transport is destroyed any further shots which were to be fired at it can instead be fired at the occupants. Or, more risky still, perhaps you have to allocate shots to the occupants and can’t even fire at the vehicle if it is still standing.

  • Silverbeast

    Poor Nids, they are described in the official warhammer post like a target practice. 🙂

    • memitchell

      You have sympathy for an alien race that is here to consume ALL life in the Galaxy? I’ve heard ’bout your type.

      • Silverbeast

        We have eternal hungry:) Is that a sin?

        • memitchell

          My daughter’s 6′ 1″ 16 year-old boyfriend has eternal hungry. That boy is an eating machine. So, if I’m footing the food bill, yes, it is!

    • ZeeLobby

      I guess my bulls-eye carapace design makes sense now :O.

    • AircoolUK

      Well, with my extensive experience in target practice, once you’ve fired all the rounds in your magazine, the target is still generally in one piece, just with a lot of holes.

  • Deacon Ix

    So less tables?

    And less maths (2nd to 3rd)…

  • Raven Jax

    I like this change. However, I will miss troops with big guns being forced to shoot the same target as everyone else, just because it was funny.

    “Tactical Marine with a Lascannon! I know you want to shoot that tank over there, but the squad is shooting at a group of Orks. So I want you to fire your Lascannon at the group of Orks and really, really kill one of them.”

    I’m still very cautious, but the more I hear about this edition, the more I like it.

    • Fergie0044

      “really really kill one” made me giggle. I’ll have to quote that during my next game.

  • Devourer

    Who ever needed to look into the wounding table? Equal S and T => 4+, for every S higher you wound with one higher chance and for every one point of S lower you need one more on the dice. All capped by 2+ / 6+.
    Having S5 or S7 makes no difference at all now when are rolling against T4 marines. I think that is no good mechanic at all

    • Chuck

      S7 will be good against a lot of vehicles, I’d wager. The dreadnaught had AV12 (front and sides), and it now has Toughness 7. Rhinos and Razorbacks will probably end up Toughness 6 or 7, and Predators and such will probably be 7 or 8. Somewhere in there, plasma will be in a sweet spot against some vehicles.

      S5 is a weird spot, but we’ve only seen a few stat lines at present. But at least it will be a 5+ against T9, whereas S4 will be 6+ against T9.

      • If plasma is still S7… I have that weird feeling that we will see strength reduced for many weapons.

        • Chuck

          Yeah, I’m not sure by any measure that weapons are keeping their old Strength value. The lascannon did (and I think GW would prefer to keep as much of that stuff as similar to the past as they can), but I don’t see that as a guarantee.

          And the further you get from the standard weapons and profiles everyone knows by heart (Space Marines), the more GW can totally change them without much angst.

      • Simon Bates

        S5 is fine, it’ll be good against T4 still, just no better than S4 against T3. On the other hand, it is much better than S4 against T8 and T9. We already know the Morkanought is going to T8, I’m sure there’ll be others.

    • Andrew B

      I think you mean having S6 or S7 makes no difference. That’s not counting the AP value of those weapons though, which is usually better than a S5 weapon.

    • Djbz

      It could be argued that Str 10 being just as likely to wound a marine as a Str 6 weapon in the old to-wound table was equally silly

  • generalchaos34

    So what does this mean for the humble guard heavy weapon team? Will they be part of the infantry squad like in days gone by? Will they be stand alone like skaven teams in AoS? Will they have more than 2 wounds and be able to survive a light rain?

    • memitchell

      Will they ever find love in an uncertain galaxy?

      Sorry, I got carried away.

      • generalchaos34

        Will the guard be able to triumph despite their forbidden passion? we’ll find out next time as the galaxy turns!

        • AircoolUK

          Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

          • Nilok

            “No Shadowsun, I can’t be the father!”
            “But he has your nose!”

  • AircoolUK

    After some quick thinking, the biggest winner here is variety. A lot of weapons Strength and units Toughness can now be expanded and there won’t be so many ‘go-to’ weapon choices anymore. Something like a Plasma Cannon, which was dangerous to use and had the annoyingly small template might have its two modes brought back.

    • generalchaos34

      I see this as a win for a HUGE variety or weapons, once again I can comfortably use heavy bolter HWT over Autocannons, mortars may have a use again, grenade launchers get to be a go to weapon again (I still use them but im weird) of course if what frankie says that HBs are to be feared is true then Russes and Chimera’s will be real nasty, esp since we can assume vehicles can split fire too.

      • It’ll be interesting to see if Russes get T9 or a 2+ save.

      • Thomas

        I’ve been jokingly calling 8th the “Heavy Bolter” edition. I’m guessing they’ll be S5 with AP-1 and 3 shots.

        Given that heavy weapons can fire on the move and different weapons can aim at different targets, Heavy Bolters in tac squads should become bloody lethal.

        • That is what I am expecting re heavy bolters stat line. I am also wondering whether they will have some kind of improved ability to move and fire (maybe ignoring the -1 to hit for moving and firing a heavy weapon) to really give them a defined role in the game?

    • Ulrik

      Yeah. I can (hope so) add sniper to my platoon and have fluffy sniper who tries actually snipe something and not just waste his shot into blob of orks…

  • I’m a bit sad about this to-wound-chart. S4, S5, S6 are the same vs T7 (so vs. Dreadnought for example) and S5, S6, S7 are the same vs. T8. All wounding on 5+, which is kind of easy.

    • NIck Cathers

      Ideally this will translate into individual weapons having flavorful changes to their other stats or effects, but yeah less differentiation is always a disappointment.

      • Simon Bates

        But it allows for a wider spectrum of weapon power, and amplifies the differences between low toughness values. For example T4 is now better than T3 against S2, S3, S4, S6 and S7. Previously it was only better against S2, S3, S4 and S5.

    • generalchaos34

      you say that but 20 years in I still occasionally forget who wounds what, plus now all my weapons can potentially wounds T8 monstrosities.

      • Calculating to wound was pretty easy. Same T/S -> 4+. Every difference made +1/+2 and double T vs S was impossible to hurt. Well… roughly that in most editions. But having the cheat-sheet on the table wasn’t a big deal to look up fancy combinations 😉

        • generalchaos34

          since its such a drastic shift in the core rules I feel like the first time since 3rd I will no longer be like “roll LD for target priority” or some other previous edition rules getting mixed up.

          • Hehe, yea, I guess it will make it easier to ‘drop off old stuff from memory’.

          • generalchaos34

            yeah when you’ve been playing through all these editions (and I play regularly, so I have no excuse for forgetting) you occasionally, be like “can we assault from X this edition?”

          • Blinghop

            It gets even worse when you get into the differences we’ve seen in the individual army rules. I still catch myself only rolling 3 dice for a tau burst cannon!

    • Chuck

      S4, S5, S6 are the same against T7. But S6 is better against T11, S5 is better against T9, etc. If you are running a Dreadnought army (and all Dreadnoughts are T7 – Ironclads are giving you dirty looks right now), then yes, your enemy’s bolters and plasma guns are theoretically equally effective.

      But in general, there’s going to be this huge variety of Strengths and Toughnesses on the board, and we’ll have to make some decisions about how we apply the various Strengths and AP and Damage to enemies on the board, because the variety and general effectiveness means there’s an actual choice.

      I prefer this to the cycle of “Everybody has melta, everybody has plasma” that has dominated the past few versions.

      • If Dreads (Av13/12/11 ?) will be only T7, then I doubt many things will be T11 apart of some really huge things.

        • Chuck

          I don’t know, but they did repeat “10 is no longer the stat limit!” many times.

          So the thing is, very very very high Toughnesses only limit what weapons get to hurt it easily, not who can hurt them. By combining Toughness, Wounds, and Save, a GW game designer can make all kinds of different ways to make a “tough” unit.

          Crazy examples: A T17 model is not tough if it has 1 Wound and a 6+ Save. A T2 model is very hard to kill if it has 50 Wounds and a 2+ save.

          So, GW can represent really resilient armor (like a Land Raider, say) by jacking the Toughness up to 14 (so only S8 or higher weapons get a 5+, and everyone else needs a 6) but keep its Wounds at 10 or less and give it a 3+ Save (making it lascannon bait, but maybe not plasma bait).

          They can manipulate these numbers in a lot of ways to produce a lot of results, so there’s the possibility of untold depth here.

          • Right. On the other hand, saves get reduced by strong weapons anyway., so there is not too much to play with. And high T means even very strong weapons will have a hard time. The most logical thing imo is just a crapload of wounds. I still doubt though we will see S11+ or T11+ very often except on former D-weapons and titans warhound size and up.

          • Sicxpence

            This has to be one of the most concise and sensible answers I’ve ever seen on a BoLs article.

            Well done Sir!

        • orionburn

          Outside of old super heavies you’re probably right. I think toughness is mainly going to be offset by the number of wounds. For instance the Morkanaut is only T8 but now has 18 wounds. That means a bolter is going to wound on a 4+ but it will get a 3+ save.

          http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9fbce22587934c725fd54308dc47541fb2db76180ed7927c93699fc87a02fdae.jpg

          • Defenestratus

            Bolter will wound T8 on a 6.

  • Xodis

    This is awesome, can’t wait to use heavy weapons other than Lascannons lol

  • Witch Beatrice

    My 50 man infantry guard blob;
    10 men on five heavy lascannons shoot R.I.P.tide
    5 plasmaguns shoot crisis team
    30 lasrifles shoot first rank second rank into kroot
    5 sgts looking cool and shining their laspistols lol shoot uhh the last firewarrior holding an objective 12 inches away?

    Rinse and repeat with platoon two and platoon three? yes please!

  • Heinz Fiction

    Units splitting fire is a very welcome change. While is does slow down the game a bit, it also does actively encourage more versatile armies (mixed weapons are no longer wasted) and weakens some non-realistic tactics like MSU.

  • silashand

    I like it. Simple, easy to use and straightforward.

  • Biggruzz

    People are saying goes the new chart doesn’t differentiate enough between str of weapons. I think the new to wound chart is an effective way to allow “everyone to hurt everyone” plus you still have to factor in the added depth of the new ap. So yes a heavy Bolter and a plasma gun might both need 3’s to hurt a t4 model now but the ap is what will make the plasma feel stronger.

    • Matthew Pomeroy

      I think its a bit of not everyone necessarily being on board with the “everyone to hurt everyone” concept for 40k.

    • Aye. And the damage characteristic also factors in – if a plasma gun does multiple wounds they will be better against multi wound targets, while a heavy bolter should have lots of shots making it better against single wound targets. So plenty of variety in ‘ideal target’ between the weapons while also getting rid of some weapons being unable to achieve anything versus certain targets.

  • Minyiki

    Interesting that bolters will now hurt dreads on a 5 when they couldn’t touch them before

    • nurglitch

      Dreads are T8, right? Then it’s 6s and a save.

    • Defenestratus

      And if Shuriken weapons have a similar effect… no saves!

      • Simon Bates

        It seems pretty unlikely that Bladestorm will remain anywhere close to what it is now. My guess is either that shuriken weapons get AP-1 (in 2nd edition they were -2 save mod, compared to a bolter’s -1) or they get AP-2 or -3 if they roll a 6 to hit/wound.

    • Farseerer

      it will take on average 90 bolter shots to do 7 wounds to a dread. I think this is fine

      • AircoolUK

        And good luck getting all those shots off against a Dread with a new found sense of purpose. Dual Assault Cannon’s all round.

  • Xodis

    So Nurgle Marines might only be wounded on 5’s from bolter fire and a Lascannon needs a 3+…. sounds like a great time to follow the God of Decay.

    • generalchaos34

      maybe, for all we know they may get more wounds instead of better T, better T maybe something they do not dole out as much as they used too in favor of more wounds.

      • Blinghop

        they could go the WFB route and have a -1 modifier to hit them

      • Xodis

        Dreads are T7 and Guilliman is T6, so I can see Nurgle being T5. I hope its not just another Wound, as that would be a big disappointment.

  • Nathaniel Wright

    Say goodbye to melee armies, gg.

    • Nyyppä

      Because of this chart. How’s so?

  • Jabberwokk

    This just in: Tyranids officially target dummies army to showcase Tactical marines.

    Prepare for the release of the new tyranid codex: Codex Phantasma Scopum along side Space Marine’s exciting Codex Arma Insidias later this year.

  • dreamwarder

    That wound table has converted me to 8th. Very elegant solution.

    • Defenestratus

      Really? I think its pretty lazy and needlessly simplistic.

      • Matthew Pomeroy

        That has been GW’s m.o. here of late.

      • Theghost

        Simple yes, lazy not so sure. They’ve added in new tactics ie split fire and different movement. We’re still going to need to think about what you shoot and how you place your models!

      • Admiral Raptor

        Better than needlessly complex.

      • generalchaos34

        its not lazy, its allows them to slide the scale of T and S above and beyond the classic 10 without having ridiculously punishing weapons like D. Now the old D style weapons will still be able to easily damage other things that are of titan class (ie High T high armor save) while not completely and utterly decimating everything on the ground (basically I would imagine that yes, a volcano cannon will obliterate a chapter master but whats the chance that a 100 ft long weapon on a 20 story tall walker can try to shoot specifically at him?

  • Tothe

    I’m beginning to like the sound of this.

  • Vachones

    You know what I love about the new To Wound chart? The days of spamming S6 shooting may be over. Wounding on 3s rather than 2s is huge. Tau and Eldar may be forced to take higher strength weapons not rather than missiles/scatter lasers. A variety of weapons choices is a good thing.

    • Charon

      Why? In terms of wounding it makes no difference if I pick a S6 weapon (which will start to wound on a 6+ at T12 – and not even the first introduced superheavy come close to that) it has no less impact against most infantry (which is in the T3 – 5 range) than stronger weapons nor is it worse against hight T (for example the brightlance would only wound T8 on a 4+, which is dreadnought level,)
      In short medium strenght multi shot weapons might still be king.

      • Vachones

        S5, S6, and S7 actually does have less impact against most infantry with this new table. T4 is pretty common, after all, and S6 and S7 now went from wounding on a 2+ to wounding on a 3+. Most of the Eldar and Tau S6 and S7 shooting has a fairly low AP, 4s and 5s for Tau, 6 for Scatter lasers. So, chances are they may not rend either. That 5 man tactical squad in cover would typically lose 2-3 men from a 12 shot volley of scatter lasers. Now, with cover being a modifier for saves, they are unlikely to lose anything.

        S6 can wound anything on a 6 whereas before anything over AV12 was immune, but fishing for 6s is no way to live, especially if again, they do not modify saves.

        • Charon

          They have less impact than in 7th but have the SAME impact in 8th.
          It does not matter If your weapon has S5 or S200 when shootin T4. This rule is the same for everyone, not only for Eldar. So high S is not needed here.
          Same is true for higher T as you only need to break the even at the point of the most common T value.
          If your opponent invests in dreads with T8, a S5 Heavy bolter will wound at the exact same number as an autocannon,
          the heavy bolter will wound 16,6% less than a missile launcher but has 200% more shots.

  • Carlos

    I really don’t like this damage chart, is oversimplified. Everything can hurt everything is ok, but a dreadnought being shot to pieces by bolter fire is not fluff wise correct. It shouldn’t even make a scratch.
    Now it feels like every weapon is kind of the same, it doesn’t matter. You need 3 more strength to make a difference between S4 and T7, in this case S4 is the same as S6, not cool at all. And yes, it may have some kind of rend, but even then i don’t see it.
    And to hurt a marine: S5, S6 and S7 are exactly the same, and it shouldn’t. Yes, again the rend modifier but even then it shouldn’t be so oversimplified. Now you hurt on 3+ to 5+, occasionally on 2+ or 6+ but rare.
    They switched the WS vs WS 3+ 4+ 5+ to Toughness vs Strength, bad.

    • Thalandor

      About a dreadnought being shot to pieces by bolter fire… I’m not knowledgeable enough about fluff, but it sure is very cinematic. If my math is correct it would take on average 108 bolter shots to down a dreadnought. That’s about 5 turns worth of rapid fire for a 10 men squad. Imagine the dreadnought advancing under a constant hail of bolter fire that’s slowly chipping away at it’s plating, the occasional large pierce being torn off and flying away (wounds!)…
      The old rules didn’t allow for that to happen, but I like it.

      • Admiral Raptor

        Exactly. A perfectly cinematic example of small(er) arms fire taking out something big! I don’t know why people keep expecting 40k to be some kind of perfect simulation for their specific interpretation of the fluff.

        • generalchaos34

          precisely, even in real life tanks can be knocked out by small arms fire, snipers hit the driver, bullets somehow wedge themselves into gears or compartments, window/periscopes/sensor gets knocked out. Not to mention the fact the moment a tank gets swarmed or loses its visibility the tank command will want to bug out so they aren’t a sitting duck for real anti tank weapons.

          Not to mention what would happen if a bullet did somehow make it through an already existing hole in the tank (ie one that has taken many wounds) and ricochets around the compartment killing the crew or cooking off rounds, taking that last wound off and “killing” the tank.

          • Commissar Molotov

            ^^^None of that is realistic.

          • Nyyppä

            41st millenia and people still hit eachother with medieval style weaponry. It’s not realistic. It’s power mellistic.

        • Aura1

          Bolts are armour piercing explosive tipped shells that blow other marines’ head’s off all the time. The fluff has Contemptor dreadnoughts getting hydraulic lines and knee joints blown apart by massed Bolter fire. Hell, in the HH novels you have greater Daemons being brought down by massed Bolter fire (by massed, read two) so even fluff wise weaponry generally outweighs armour/toughness.

      • Simon Bates

        Quite. Or 5 ten-man squads rapid-firing for one turn. Either of which entails the Dreadnought neutralising a significant portion of the enemy army (one squad all game or 5 squads for a turn) without ever needing to kill anything.

    • Theghost

      You need to remember that vehicles and dreads will most likely get a 3+ save (poss a 2+ on larger vehicles) so not everything ‘always’ hurt everything. I’m was one of the big nay sayers on this edition but I’m coming round to it. We still don’t know how cover will effect saves. Let’s wait and see and play and few games before we burn everything 🙂

  • Crablezworth

    everything split fires… that should help speed things up… garbage fire

  • El Boyo del Reko

    Called it. 🙂 Only I thought the chart would be used for to hits as well.

  • Admiral Raptor

    Love it! A nice compromise between classic 40k and AoS.

  • generic eric

    Did we see the “to hit” table yet?

    • EmperorOfMankind

      to hit is in the stat line of each model.

  • Randy Randalman

    Everything CAN hurt everything, but on average dice over a 5 turn game, 200 Lasguns won’t kill a Morkanaut. Which is good. They do hurt T5 models on 5+ now instead of 6, which means they are a little better at shooting elite or multi-wound infantry.

    Meanwhile, Carnifexes and Dreadnoughts aren’t running around getting wounded on 2’s by every weapon that targets them, and get a save (albeit on 6’s). That gives them a little more staying power.

    Role-specific weapons = better for the game. Less 2’s determining the outcome of everything = better for the game.

    • Simon Bates

      This is a very good point about mid-T models. Sure a T7 dreadnought is now vulnerable to (lots of) bolter fire, but it is much less vulnerable to S9 lascannons and (if they haven’t changed) S8 Krak missiles. A weapon will need S12+ to wound Guilliman on better than a 3+.

  • Manuel Bateman

    toughness 5 seems not such a great place to be.. every third IG lasgun counts

    • EvilCheesypoof

      Things they want to not die so quickly will have more wounds to compensate. Like said elsewhere, since there’s no limit on stats, they can mess with T, W, and Save in all sorts of combinations to get the desired sturdiness they want.

    • Simon Bates

      True, but more resilient against high-powered weapons though. Lascannons will only wound T5 on a 3+, as will S8, both of which would wound a regular marine on a 2+.

  • Donald Wendt

    So…what does a Tau Target Lock do now, I wonder?

    • Djbz

      Maybe i’ll be changed to what the targeting array did in their 4th edition codex (+1Bs)

  • MechBattler

    Huh. So there’s not much difference at lower toughness, but as it goes up, it gets geometrically harder to get a 2+ to wound roll.

    Wonder how Destroyer will fit into this….

  • Stefan Pietraszak

    This reminds me of Blood Bowl, which is a good thing.

  • This Dave

    So now there will be a reason to put heavy weapons in squads other than to give them extra wounds. Not sure about things like Lasguns having the ability to damage Land Raiders though, as even if it’s a slight chance it will happen eventually. I remember a game when the Super Heavy rules first came out and a single glancing hit from a Meltagun destroyed a full health Baneblade. It took rolling a 6 five times in a row but it was possible.

    • Derek Lee

      But now that land raider will have an armor save and probably more than ten wounds. Heck, the lasguns may be AP: – and give the land raider a 2+ save. It’s possible to strip that last wound, but I’d be more concerned with the Melta command squad, gunships, or all the blobs that can splitfire their lascannons to the land raider and still shoot their lasguns at whatever is close.

  • Commissar Ahmad

    Splitting fire is HUGE! No longer will 8 Guardsmen sit around doing nothing while the 2 guys manning the Lascannon shoot at a tank. That’s great!