40K: Primaris Marines & the Future

Move older “classic marines”, there’s a new kid on the block and it looks like GW has BIG plans for him.

By this point, everyone knows the Primaris Marines are real and coming.

We first got a blurry glimpse a couple of weeks back with the boxed set pics:

After we all gave ourselves eye-strain, GW gave in and let the cat out of the bag – Cawl & Guilliman’s 10,000 year plan was real and headed to a tabletop near you.

We got artwork

We got models

We got rules

 

But what does it all mean?

Thoughts on the New Marines

I’m intrigued by the entire squad being equipped with identical bolters.  This harkens back to the 30K Legion list where your marine squads are generally fielded in specialist squads of identically armed models, similar to Eldar Aspect Warriors. I would not be surprised see this continue into the Special, Heavy and Assault Primaris squads.

The models are beautiful and GW has walked the tightrope on these, accomplishing two goals.

  • Making them just big enough and distinctive to set them apart and above the existing Marine range.
  • Making the existing marine range look “tired”, but not completely obsolete, to encourage upgrade purchases without pissing off existing marine players. Think of the difference between Stormcast Eternals and WFB Empire Knights.

From a rules point of view – these guys are clearly better than standard marines, but not too much better. The model-count of a Primaris army will certainly be smaller giving players some choices of just how elite and badass of a Marine army they want to collect.

GW has said to expect many more kits of Primaris Marines in the months ahead with both infantry and vehicles. Rumormongers who say they have seen prototypes describe them as being distinctive from any existing marine kits.

I would expect that once the new edition is here, you should expect the “old fashioned” marine range to basically be closed out, with little to no new models outside of a sporadic model here and there. GW has gotten more than enough mileage out of the range in the past 20 years, can keep it on shelves indefinitely, but move onto greener Primaris pastures.

Instead I see GW diving into another “Summer of Sigmar” with a large launch window of new Primaris Marines to enable players to fill out an entirely new army – just what GW loves to see.

Note the clever trick of mentioning that Primaris Marines have been dispatched to all existing Chapters AND that Guilliman has ordered the founding of many new chapters for his crusade. This gives all players who own marines the option of adding the new models piecemeal to existing armies, or starting a completely new army with new models, heraldry and fluff.  Nice marketing job there.

Now everyone and their brother has been saying for a year that GW was going to “Sigmarize” the Grimdark.  Take a look at these two images.  I think they just did… (but in the good way).

If there’s anything I love it’s a unique, distinctive kneepad design.

 

Hey, wait a minute…

 

~Will you add Primaris Marines to your existing Space Marine army, of build an entirely new one?

 

Finally take moment to remember the RTB-1s, the smallest of humanity’s supersoldiers – now with an even worse inferiority complex.

 

  • I don’t believe we will see anyone thinking about using old Minimarines instead of Numarines. Numarines might be more expensive, but I doubt too much to not pay for +1 wound, +1A, +6″ range and -1AP. That’s just too appealing and such a big boost over Minimarines. (a less boost back in 2nd was using Shurikens instead of Lasguns and everyone was going for the upgrade, it was just too good to not use it)
    I’d never field Minimarines except Devastators again. I will counts-as my old guys as Numarines all the way… in case I will play my Fists at all any time soon.

    • Tshiva keln

      I agree. The stats are also more fitting for how marines appear the fluff. The only thing that may make the little fellas appeal more would be weapon load outs. Might miss that special weapon in the squad, unless they bring out dedicated special weapon squads like in 30k.
      Only issue is I have 3 marine armies and not about to start another but naturally want some of the new models. Would look odd to count-as most of the army but include one big squad.

      • BrianDavion

        we’ve seen Primaris Marines with plasma guns so chances are they will indeed have special weapons squads. the big question is if they’ll have a special weapons and heavy weapons squad, or if they’ll operate more like CSM Havok squads.

      • Heinz Fiction

        According to the fluff a unit of Raveners would wipe a whole imperial battalion and a handful of Trygons would destroy a fortress world. I’m not convinced that “fitting the fluff” is healthy for the game…

        • I don’t see what’s wrong with 30″ ranged Space Marines on 2 wounds and better AP than every other regular gun out there.
          /s

          • Heinz Fiction

            I don’t like the -1 AP on what will soon be the most common gun on the battlefield. Other than that: nothing. I just don’t think the whole “fluff” argument is of any value, as the fluff usually is exaggerated to a ridiculous point that cannot and should not be resembeld by the rules.

          • The “/s” was meant to signal sarcasm and that I’m not fond of fluff-justifications either.

          • Heinz Fiction

            Ah, I see. Wasn’t aware of that abbreviation.

          • No problem 🙂

          • KingAceNumber1

            I don’t hate it. They still die like 10 marines, but have fewer shots overall. I’m not quivering in my nurgle-y boots over 5 s4 rend -1 shots out of a squad. Hit ’em with a battle cannon and most of the squad is still gonna eat it.

          • Vorropohaiah

            not unless you roll a 1 for what would hit all of them with a template today 🙂

        • Tshiva keln

          You could be right there, especially considering some of the writing. I’d hate to see a true-fluff ultramarine!

      • AircoolUK

        Use Squat models as oldmarines and your current marine models as numarines.

        That way, there’s be a visible size difference with the bonus of you being able to use squats.

    • Scatter 667

      It will actually boil down to points cost per model and the possibility of load out. For now they seem as expensive as rubric marines (both about 6 power level for 5). They might be to expensive for the performance. Depending on the points cost that might be like fielding all terminator forces. I’m not so sure if that will be a viable option in the new edition. Yes, they are good, but they might be just to few on the table like grey knights now. The fewer and smaller squads, the harder the uphill battle.
      Normal Taq squad: 7Bolters, 1 special, 1 heavy combi on searg
      Primaris: 4 Boltrifles and maybe a combi
      Its just to few shots and options. Yes they have 6″ more range, but they lack the versatility in battle.

      • Frank O’Donnell

        I think Rubic’s are power level 8 mate

        • They are for 5. More guys will increase the power level just by 6.

        • ILikeToColourRed

          theyre 8 for 5 when 1 is a sorceror, 6 for an additional 5

      • AircoolUK

        I think a lot will hinge on how ATSKNF and any specific Chapter rules will work.

    • ZeeLobby

      Why wouldn’t you field numarine devastators instead?

      • Crevab

        The devastators would have no use for the +1A or the BetterBolter. Why pay for them? Min/max, yo

      • I would, but so far they aren’t announced. I assume they get Heavy Weapons +1 too, on top of the +1W. Just waiting for GW to make an announcement.

        • ZeeLobby

          Well, with assault marines and terminators on the horizon, I’d say they’re coming. I think a piece of artwork even showed devestators markings.

          • BrianDavion

            do we know for sure there are Primairs Termies coming?

          • ZeeLobby

            I think that was one of the initial rumors or leaks. We do know they’re getting dreadnaughts and vehicles. The rumor was I think Hastings, so pretty solid at this point (could be misremembering).

          • Hastings is still alive and actively posting rumours? Haven’t seen him for a while.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I was shocked that some of the 40K stuff has come from him as well, as he was primarily a fantasy guy. But yeah. He’s still kicking it.

          • orionburn

            New Termies would be sweet, but Deathwing Termies will always be my first love. I don’t expect anything game changing with Intercessor devs, but looking forward to see what the assault boys do.

          • ZeeLobby

            I dunno. I expect new weaponry. Improved heavy bolters, new lascanrifles and probably heavy gravguns galore.

          • orionburn

            I would seriously hate to see a rush to a new OP weapon like we saw with grav. If it’s limited to these guys then hopefully it won’t be abused too badly. And that’s all assuming they even get something crazy.

            Intercessor Lascannon: +8 to BS, 24D6 wounds, -182875 to armor save

          • Imo the boost above or to Tau standard rifles is already big. We’re talking about standard-guns after all.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean we’ll have to see. My guess is that there will always be a slight incentive to upgrade to the new marines though. I mean it makes sense if that’s their goal. Hopefully it won’t be ridiculously OP. Of course if it is, there will always be the yearly rules update to re-balance it. Power creep through the years releases, rebalance, repeat.

          • orionburn

            That’s the big upside to a yearly GHB type release. At least you don’t have to worry about being stuck with something crappy for 3-5 years now. We’ll be due soon for an article chastising us for all these rumors/speculation…lol

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I just don’t know if I want to play a system that constantly chases the dragon throughout the year, haha.

          • orionburn

            True. For me I’d rather have everything in one place with an updated book rather than keeping track of FAQs throughout the year. I haven’t even gotten my first game of SW:A in yet and already there’s been two FAQs done…lol

          • KingAceNumber1

            Don’t forget 1d20 damage with rerolls on 1-19

          • BrianDavion

            could be something simple like “no BS penalty when firing on the move”

          • BrianDavion

            I’d not be suprised if we got basicly the whole standard range for the new marines. tac assault, devestator, terminator

          • Artwork showed more things as for example Apothecaries (probably then called differently because copyright – Intercessors…) already. Right in the pic above.

    • SB

      But that’ll depend on if you caould them as troops, especially in matched play where you’d have to take command points into consideration.

      • I will eat my hat if they aren’t in the standard slot. Even the fluff says
        they are there to replace the ranks and not just rare elites.

        • euansmith

          I’ve not seen any fluff for these blokes, but I think it could be fun if the Primaris are less sophisticated than the Real-Marines.

          So that, while the Emperor went to great lengths to give his dudes the ability to aspire to philosophical and artistic greatness, these new guys could just be vat-grown meat heads with a basic, cookie-cutter personality; so more Leon Kowalski and less Roy Batty.

          “Casualties in the latest assault were higher than expected.”

          “How high?”

          “100%”

          “Okay, just sluice out the armour, plug any holes and decant another Chapter from the vats.”

  • Aaditya Rangan

    I’ve heard the term “Bigmarines”. You know, for 40K: Age of Bigmar 🙂

    • Suicidemaniac

      More like Age of Bigmarines amirite

  • BloodAngel

    Just call your old ones “squats” and move on. Kills two birds, gives “true scale” and people have been begging for squats for years.

  • Parthis

    I like the Guillimarines… but I don’t believe this is the short-term end of SM releases. There’s just too much scope to add to the line, and so many opportunities for books, characters and revised kits.

    Long term? Maybe. If my SM force never changes, i’m OK with that – there’s only so much they can do.

    • BrianDavion

      yeah, other then new vehicles (which GW is gonna make for Primairs and normal marines, because GW aren’t STUPID) there’s not much they can add. the last few Marine additions have gotten panned because well.. they felt silly and cludged in to be cludged. things like centurions.

      • euansmith

        GW still hasn’t rounded out the Rhino Family with an Assault Rhino. Just the same as a normal Rhino, but open-topped.

  • Mike X (Official)

    I, for one, will never buy a “bigmarine” model. We all knew GW would screw over their playerbase somehow, like they changed square bases to round bases in fantasy. This is just the 40K equivalent.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      I agree. This (along with other recent fluff changes) has really annoyed me more than any change to the game, at least since GW squatted my Slann and Squats nearly 30 years ago. I went off in a huff then and didn’t play for 10 years. Still, I’m sure the youngsters will love these Bigmarines, mores the pity.

      Shame I just finally got round to spending nearly £100 on display cases for my collection. Oh well, my SAGA miniatures and Bolt Action chaps will look nice in them.

      • Scatter 667

        This is totally the reaction i was expecting to read and i can read it all over the internet! Its the marines players complaining their stuff got outdated and how everything is going down the drain! some call that the crymarines and couldn’t agree more!
        Although i agree that squating was bad and shouldn’t happen, this is far from it! You just got new toys! But i guess if you cry harder and louder, the minimarines will also get the new and shiny stuff, as all cybots got 4 attacks 24hours after the errata droped and the non-vanilla players were crying!
        The point with square to round bases is actually not a screw over, it looks far better and is only rebasing. work yes, but no invalidation!

        • ILikeToColourRed

          I think your full stop is accidentally putting in exclamations…

          • ZeeLobby

            I thought exclamation points were the only way!

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            My old English teacher, Mr Mahoney, said they made whatever you wrote look like “the ravings of a feverish idiot”.

          • Scatter 667

            i actualy have the “.” on my keyboard by i thought using “!” would help to make my point;-)

          • ILikeToColourRed

            when everything is an exclamation, nothing is 😛

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            He is just so! Excited!

          • Scatter 667

            its nice to see, that by focusing on the form people can just sidetrack and avoid the matter at hand. Obviously its easier than facing the content;-)

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            well we’ve all explained how we feel. you are just seeking to minimise it for some reason. It isn’t a discussion as you haven’t made any points, so I’m not sure what I should say in reply.

        • memitchell

          How can you write so much, yet say so little?

      • Andrew

        Bye! 😚

      • Shawn

        To be fair, they are a company that has to find new ways to sell models and make money.. At least, this is a way to do it without totally alienating the player base and giving them the big mid-finger to everyone like they did with WF.

    • Xodis

      They screwed you over how? As of right now NuMarines are a completely different unit, and I highly doubt they actually come take your mini-Marines away much less ever say you can’t use them anymore.
      As for the square base argument, thats really sad and weak. At no time have square bases become illegal, nor did GW ban them. Plenty of people still use square because re-basing sucks and it fits better when using the models for D&D and the like.

      • KingAceNumber1

        Yeah, how dare GW expand a model line and provide new rules for us to use. They really are the worst.

    • DeadlyYellow

      If we get a box set of Deathguard vs. Primaris like the rumors indicate, then I’ll likely end up with some. And that will be the cap of my 40k purchases.

      Kinda fell out of love with GW’s ChunkyPads.

    • KingAceNumber1

      How? You aren’t required to buy them, they aren’t replacing your marines. It’s literally just a new set of units.

      • BaronSnakPak

        You mean the cheeseburger that I’ve always loved, from the restaurant that I frequent the most, can now be ordered as a DOUBLE cheeseburger?! I’ll never eat there again!!

      • Ah! If only they could come to my house and replace all these old Mk7 marines with 5 coat of paint for free. That would be something.

  • Crevab

    It’ll probably be a few years before I get over the disappointment. It’s not like they’re going to be going away

  • Benedict Quintiliani

    I like this move as it let’s me do two things I was kind of looking forwards to. I can use my old marines to model old Rogue Trader indoctrinated psychopathic soldier marines and then I can use the new ones to make truescale marines

  • Crevab

    Still wanna see a side by side, old and new. Are these guy the eight feet tall that everyone seems to think Space Marines are?

    • ZeeLobby

      The video had them side by side. They’re a head taller. Not sure if they’re tall enough scale wise. That said, maybe GW was leaving room for super bigmarines for 9th edition :D.

      • euansmith

        Stick them next to Ad Mech Troops and they are going to look masssssssseeeeeve! Hopefully GW will bring out a new range of IG minis in the same scale as the Skittarii.

        • ZeeLobby

          Really? I was hoping the IG would stay the same scale, they’d just actually look human again, haha.

        • Muninwing

          well, now that Cadia is all done, where will the “standard” for the IG come from?

          there aren’t enough people on Catachan, and everything else is metal/finecast. while i’d love to see plastic Vostroyans, Tallarn, Valhallans, Mordians,and Praetorians, only one standard will emerge as the focus.

          • That question is not really hard to answer: GW will come up with new planets and new types of regiments. So they can sell new IG models and marks.

          • Muninwing

            except they haven’t. every new IG release has either been Cadian (75%), Catachan (who get thrown a bone), or as i noted above metal/finecast. (though i forgot to mention Armageddon in there too).

            they have not explored a range.

            so… what will they do now?

            the tech is far better design-wise — they could in theory release a new line of any of the existing IG tithe planets as a bland standard with general kit. or they could double down on the bland standard of the Cadians and keep the kit as is, renamed, and just go with the “official equipment” line.

            or they could design something new. which would be interesting, but is not necessarily in the schedule.

          • euansmith

            I would like to see something a bit more grim-dark and baroque than the Cadians. It could be cool if they could roll in a release for Free People Malitia for AoS with an IG release for 40k; with all the bits being scaled to match across the ranges.

          • Like and Dislike. That would be a good idea, but on the other hand the scale of humans in AOS is also increasing (see khorne and tzeentch ultists). And I like my IG small. Even more if we just get truscale marines.

            But maybe cultists in AOS are augmented compared to normal humans …

  • Albino_42

    The Empire Knights comparison is ominous… you realise they don’t make those models anymore?

    • Maybe the ‘they don’t make those anymore’ is exactly the point of it after all 😉

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah… I don’t know why they’d continue making minimarines if they want you to upgrade.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    “~Will you add Primaris Marines to your existing Space Marine army, of build an entirely new one?”

    You missed out the third and fourth options BoLS~
    “or will you rage quit and go off in a huff putting your now inadequate looking Space Marines on Ebay, or will you retreat into 30K where the bad fluff doesn’t hurt your mind and you can pretend none of this ever happened.”

    • vlad78

      My minimarines will perfectly do and pose for bigmarine.

  • Kveldulf

    “Snowflake marines”

    -Arch warhammer

  • Rob brown

    This may be an obvious question but why can’t I just carry on using my existing miniatures to use as primaris marines? Their “bolt rifles” look almost exactly the same as bolters – of which I have tons.

    You know the size increase will just be an excuse for a substantial price increase!

    To be honest I’d be a lot happier if the fluff didn’t involve Ultramarines. The most snowflake of special snowflake chapters.

    • Yeah, I bet 5 of these guys cost the same as Custodes.

      • Rob brown

        I wouldn’t be surprised.

        I really don’t understands the rules angst though. We’ve been using veterans and chosen with two attacks and better weapons for years. Just use those models. To be honest I’ve already migrated all my old SM models to big bases and I love the look of them. There’s no power on earth that could make me replace an entire army because of scale creep.

        • ZeeLobby

          That’s what you say, until your army never recurved cool new updates again, and models become scarce as production stops. You could just forever stick to what you have. I just remember people saying that the 32mm bases were dumb and they’d never upgrade to a month later saying “they really make the models look better”.

          • Rob brown

            What do you mean cool updates? As far as I can see these are slightly larger marines with slightly (barely noticably) different weapons.

            If they release a new character.. well they’ve been releasing new characters of a slightly different scale for ages and we use them without problem.

            If they release new vehicles… they can be used as they are.

            If they release completely new unit types like they did with centurians, then thats great, who cares if new types are different.

            Literally the only ‘cool new units’ you wouldn’t want to use would be replacements for tactical, devastator, assault etc. However in those cases, why would you want to replace something thats 90% the same.

            If they come up with dramatically different weapons, that will be a problem, the equivilent of a graviton gun. However the core flamer, melta, plasma, bolter has been in place for 30 years. Are you honestly saying you can’t use a bolt gun as a bolt rifle?

          • ZeeLobby

            Just the fact that bolt rifle exists points heavily towards new weapons being a thing of this new faction imo. It’s also important to note the differentiation of key words “primaris” . Sure you could just throw the new big dudes in your small dude army, but it will most likely not be the equivalent of just dropping in more small dudes.

            I mean it’s up to the individual in the end. If you want to keep playing a faction that no longer receives updates, is ignored/over-shadowed in the new fluff, and whose miniature line will eventually be unavailable for purchase, that’s just a choice you have to make. Personally I’m selling my mini-marines and currently have no plans of picking up their bigger brothers (much better models imo).

          • Rob brown

            I think you misunderstand me ZeeLobby.

            I’m saying use your existing marines as primaris marines. They are almost identical about 5mm taller, with a gun thats 2mm longer who cares!

            Vehicles, characters, and brand new types of models (I don’t count a 5mm taller version of an existing unit brand new, its a remodel) can all be used alongside without any remorse or scale issues.

            [5mm is an approximation, based on a extra foot taller, it could be more or less and isn’t really important]

          • “who cares” – tournaments and official events care. I personally don’t.

          • ZeeLobby

            Talk about a genius marketing move by GW. It’s so blatant that people have hardly even picked it up yet, haha.

          • KingAceNumber1

            This. I wouldn’t deny it in a friendly game but playing the which-squad-is-primaris minigame between 8 different tac squads at the end of a GT when I’m burnt and running on 4 hours of sleep isn’t something I want to do.

          • ZeeLobby

            As Hendarion said. I like to play at events. It clearly is going to effect me. Some locals may let me proxy, but this has now gotten dangerously close to not even following WYSIWYG.

          • Rob brown

            So if you fielded an army with a 3rd edition carnifex would that be prevented because you weren’t using the up to date model?

            Are conversions not allowed in tournaments?

            If the model has the right base size, is easily identifiable and made of entirely games workshop sculpts I would honestly be amazed if you had a problem either in store games or at tournaments.

          • Conversions and old models for an existing unit =/= counts as.

          • Rob brown

            I think you’re wrong there. In most A carnifex of any edition is a carnifex, provided the base size is correct.

          • ZeeLobby

            Right, what he was saying is that in your case, they would be count-as. A carnifex in any edition is not. Most tournaments and events don’t allow count-as armies.

          • Erm, yes, that’s what I was saying: ‘Counts as’ is not the same as ‘using old models or conversions’. Using old models or conversions: OK! Using counts as: NOT OK!
            Minimarines are not old Primaris models and not conversions. They aren’t even the same faction. Thus: NOT OK, because ‘count as’.

          • euansmith

            How about fielding an army of Old Marines as Nu Marines, but just claim they are slightly further away and so look smaller. (“Small. Far away.”, Father Ted Crilly)

          • Brilliant! 😀

            (but no, lol)

          • Rob brown

            So let me be clear. Are you saying you couldn’t use converted forgeworld 30k tactical marine models in your 40k space wolves army for a tournament? If their weapons look right? We’ll have to disagree there.

            Faction is a rules system element which is different to a modelling element. Modelling is based on common sense and reasonableness, rules are based on other rules.

          • Thing is that the guns don’t look right. And yes, tournament-organizers can be really picky about that, because your ‘veteran opponent’ can’t know by having a look at the models that these are supposed to be Primaris and you’d need to tell him, which is basically again ‘counts as’. That’s basically the same as going to a tournamend and claiming your blood red painted dudes with the tear-drops on the shoulder-pads are Space Wolves. Same issue.
            As I said, not for me, I give a damn. But tournament organizers and tournament players can be really picky here.

          • Rob brown

            If you can’t see the difference between my example and using red painted blood angels miniatures as spacewolves, then we have very different approaches to the game!

            I suspect the determining factor will depend on how the new marines are intended to be played. Are the intended as a new army to eventually replace the existing or are they additional units for current armies. Ultimately a year down the line they can’t be both.

            If its the former (as I suspect) then counts as marines with identical weapons (add 2mm to your bolt guns if you are really bothered) are more than reasonable. If they’re intended as a few extra units to add some spice (like Harlequins are to elder) then then using the new models seems reasonable.

          • I repeat: It’s not about me here. I give a damn.

          • KingAceNumber1

            The issue here is that if you have 3 squads of Primaris, and you’re using regular marines to represent them, and you have 4 squads of regular marines, there’s going to be no way on a model basis to glance at them and tell them apart, and that’s a headache that tournament organizers do not want to deal with.

          • Rob brown

            I agree, I posted somewhere else in this mass that you probably shouldn’t combine them in one army unless there is a clear way of identifying the differences – bigger bases, conversions for wolf guard etc.

            I know people that have already converted some of the AOS khorne miniatures into possessed or into berserkers and frankly they look amazing and very fitting.

            This isn’t the problem if the whole range is replaced though and the existing models are left to languish.

          • ZeeLobby

            You understand the difference between models within a faction and those not within one right? It’d be like taking my dark Eldar army and saying that it’s an Eldar army. The stat lines, guns, etc. are completely different. Sure they’re all thin and pointy eared, but the confusion alone is enough reason to disallow it. Top that off with the new Bigmarines maybe being on 40mm bases, and it’s even more of a reason (could be on 32s, hard to tell, but they look bigger).

            Looking back at the vid, they’re definitely on 40s, lol.

          • Rob brown

            That’s a poor analogy, as they look nothing like each other.

            I’ve been playing Warhammer for 25 years so I do understand the difference yes.

            You seem to have bought into the tosh that new spacemarines are a brand new army, when in fact they are the exact same army 5mm taller.

            There is a bit of Emperor’s New Clothes syndrome going around here.

          • euansmith

            Emperor’s New Clothes sounds like a great name for a Nu Marine Successor Chapter.

          • Rob brown

            You could use some heavily converted daemonettes as a base. That said in 40k the power of belief means their ‘invisible armour’ might actually work. Isn’t that the principal behind Sisters?

          • euansmith

            I think that only works for Orkz… Though maybe Cawl has included some Ork DNA in the Bigmarine genome? 😉

          • Muninwing

            there will be a NuMarines special artifact called the “novi imperatoris vestimenta”

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. OK. I’ve been playing for 25 years as well, and I can recognize the difference. Now think about exactly what you just said. You’re making the assumption that EVERYONE who plays this game has played for 25 years and knows the difference… Think… Think real hard… Doesn’t that imply that new players might struggle to tell the difference? Doesn’t GW want new players to start the game?

            Clearly you have an agenda here. Regardless of the logic/examples/facts that I could post about how counts-as are really not allowed at events or tournaments, you’re going to attempt to refute it because you simply just don’t want to believe it’s so, but it IS a reality. I just can’t help explain this to someone who won’t accept reality.

          • Rob brown

            No agenda apart from countering some of the hysteria and supposition that is being lobbed around.

            I think if you sit down with a new player and say this is my primaris marine army (I hope we don’t have to call them that) then they new player will say cool, what are the rules. They won’t give two figs.

            I’ve just checked ITC rules and NOVA rules both allow reasonable counts as substitutions.

            It seems Adepticon is stricter and enforces WYSIWYG, however in explaining this it says models and weapons should be easily identifiable as what they are. Simply convert your bolter ends by an extra 3mm and increase the height of your bases.

            Its too soon to see how Adepticon will react to the Bigmarines as they havent evan been released yet, but I’ve just identified two massive Tournaments that don’t seem to see it as an issue. Thats not even including local events that aren’t anywhere near as pedantic. My gaming partner regularly fielded his Greek Hoplite – counts as High Elf army in tournaments without any issues.

          • ZeeLobby

            First off. ITC doesn’t say anything about count-as. It’s up to tournaments to decide. Second, WYSIWYG and modeling to a an advantage ARE COMMON TO ALL TOURNAMENTS. So unless LoS is somehow not going to be a factor anymore, goodluck convincing your opponent that your shorter/smaller marines don’t somehow give you an advantage. And that their Bolt-rifles are now boltguns (assuming they don’t get additional weapons that are unique).

            So the ITC, which isn’t a tournament, doesn’t see it as an issue (cause it shouldn’t), but NOVA clearly does. And Adepticon clearly does.

            That said, it’ll be up to the tournament organizers to decide how to handle this odd predicament. Just don’t be shocked when suddenly you can’t do what you want to do. Most people who are let slide with such things is because they’ve come up with awesome conversions, or scratch built an awesome theme. Goodluck arguing too-lazy-to-buy as a point.

          • Rob brown

            Its in the Rules Addendum & ITC Format Guidelines – ITC 2017 Season Quarter 1

          • ZeeLobby

            “Using a proxy for a model violates our policy.”

            This is getting very close to proxying a whole army. The counts-as rules are meant for unique themes/conversions to be allowed. Not for entire armies to be misrepresented. With true LoS I’d bet that they’d say no. Now if 8th removes that, then maybe it’d be OK (if models are given a “volume”).

            Regardless, the ITC ruleset is meant to be a superset to the event rules. Most events clearly define issues with WYSIWYG or modeling for an advantage. The ITC restrictions are meant to be general in nature as to include as many events as possible. That’s why they leave a lot of the final say up to the TOs for things like this.

          • Rob brown

            You missed the caveat “Exceptions will be made for themed units or armies.”

            and

            “Using a reasonable substitute to “Counts As” another model, does not violate our policy.”

            A themed 7th edition blood angels army using the 8th adition replacement space marine rules (if thats what these end up being) would consitute a reasonable substitution in my book. Alternatively it would be a themed “classic marine” army.

            It really isn’t hard for tournament organisers to look for justification… try widening your potential recruitment pool.

            However if you are mixing and matching primaris marines in your army it probably isn’t reasonable and you should buy some new models. It depends on GW’s intentions.

          • ZeeLobby

            “themed units or armies” = “uh, this is my ‘I’m too poor/lazy to buy the new guys’ theme”

            Your substitution would make sense if the old models no longer have rules, but they do. It’s not like you’re making this choice because you have to, it’s because you chose to.

            LoL. I love how you’re reaching with your “classic marine” themed army. Oh look, and their heads just manage to put them behind the wall and out of line of sight. Don’t pay attention to that!

            It’s not happening. The more and more you try to justify it the crazier it sounds. If they do allow a grace period, they’ll have to be some additional rulings to make their silhouette larger at least.

          • Rob brown

            Do you see many wargame walls where a spacemarine would be hidden but a 5mm taller marine wouldn’? Most walls I see are 2cm tall and cover half the body of pretty much every humanoid model in range.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yes. I’ve seen tons. Does that finally invalidate these loopholes you’re attempting to jump through here to justify your choice? lol. Who cares what we’ve seen, like you said, we have 25 years experience, but for the new player it WILL be confusing if you’re playing minimaries as new marines, while new marine models exist. Why aren’t you just playing the new marine models? Oh, your theme is “classic marines”, lol. You fight the good fight man, you’ve clearly already decided for yourself, and are somehow flying it in the face of rules that exist today, so more power to yah.

          • Rob brown

            Not really confusing to anyone over the age of 10.

            Existing Player: “This is a Primaris Wolf army, I just didn’t want to throw away all my old models, all the weapons are there Primaris equivilents though.”

            New Player: “Cool, to be honest I’ve only been playing six months, I wouldn’t have noticed if you hadn’t said, they all look the same to me.”

            Existing Player: “Yeah, I guess they do.”

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e29852d7d99d12c8abec4a57e144216b35d3ea5958804fbd4244cfa0fa916e86.jpg

          • Rob brown

            A large space wolves force is the only space marine army out of the seven armies I have, so perhaps I am less bothered than those who have four space marine factions.

            A tournament will make it very clear whether existing spacemarines can be used as their replacements..

          • ZeeLobby

            No doubt. They’ll need to clarify for sure, but they have total justification not to allow them, and imo, a harder time to argue for them to allow them. It’s easy to believe it will be allowed now, when a 3rd of the players haven’t bought the new models, but when they do, you’ll have a hard time justifying using your smaller harder to hit models as a substitution.

          • Dehumanizerpl

            What I don’t undestand is the idea that those marines are supposed to invalidate the old marines.

            Did everyone sell their marines when deathwatch dropped? Not really.

            Primaris marines serve the same function – another offspring of marine genre for more diversity and flavour. Yeah, I too think that they’re a little unnecessary (even if beautiful), but I don’t think they would invalidate their biggest seller out of the window. That is very not like the GW of late.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I don’t understand how people don’t see this coming. They’ll be available in all chapters, geneseed is being transferred from dead minimarines to bigmarines. They’re getting assault, terminators, dreadnaughts and vehicles.

            If they do ALL OF THIS and keep both as factions, they’re severely cannibalizing new sales. Basically they’ll be double-stocking a similar aesthetic. This is their NEW biggest seller. The second-hand SM market is overly saturated at this point. Even if they alienate a 1/3 of their current SM player base, if they resell entire armies to the other 2/3s that’s a massive boost in yearly profits (their number one priority).

          • Dehumanizerpl

            They CANNOT invalidate the old range because of Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Chaos Marines and everything else connected. How would a normal chaos marine look compared to the primarine? Puny. How would the “ultra elite” DW and GK marines look compared to primarine? Puny.

            Every mold connected to the oldmarines would go to waste. Not a real problem for old sculpts, but for Deathwatch in example? Throw it away after one year? Mold is not a book, it’s much more expensive to make and mantain.

            And they’re not canibalizing the sales. New players would get several flavours of marines – primarines, oldmarines, GK, DW, BA, DA, SW. Hell, they just introduced new GK character AND announced The Fallen as a new faction.

            They NEED the old marines to be viable and sellable as standalone.

          • ZeeLobby

            I never said they’d stop selling them immediately (lol). They just won’t get anything new, and will likely disappear from shelves at some point.

          • Dehumanizerpl

            We don’t know that.

          • ZeeLobby

            But we’ve seen them do it. Tomb Kings still have rules, but don’t have models anymore. Sure they’ll still pump out molds based on minimarines, but I highly doubt we’ll see new models (unless they’re somehow tied to the transition to newmarine fluff). I mean they’re getting replacement counter-parts for assault, terminator, dread, vehicles and now maybe devastators. I mean it makes sense. It’s more of an illogical leap to assume that they’ll continue supporting both of these extremely similar factions in parallel. Minimarines now occupy a slot between guardsmen (human perspective) and numarines (THE heroes of the imperium), so what exactly are they at this point? Now with CAD it’d be even easier to update the old GK, DW, etc. to the newer molds (the new DW are actually already bigger).

          • Dehumanizerpl

            But the new DW are not primarine big. The supposedly elite of the elite would be inferior to the primarines?

            We will wait and see, but I don’t think replacement is the case here.

          • euansmith

            Next thing you know, you are fielding Grey Plastic Marines.

          • ZeeLobby

            Aren’t those Grey Knights?

          • BaronSnakPak

            From the FAQ itself:
            “Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
            No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing
            machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra
            genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional
            reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.”
            https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/05/Primaris-Space-Marines-FAQ-ENG.pdf

          • ZeeLobby

            Well ofcourse. If the whole point of all of this is to disguise a phase out of minimarines theyre not going to say it in the FAQ. Duh 😀

          • euansmith

            Those 32mm base really give the minis some space to breath (to be read in the voice of the Dude)

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. I mean I actually agree as well. But I thought that from day one, and totally realized I’d rebase my army eventually.

    • Yeah, just consider primaris as an alternative profile for “movie marines”. Done.

      Choice of alternative models true scale or classic. Done.

  • At least they can’t really get rid of old marine models, not with all that 30k stuff out there.

    • Emprah

      At least I hope so.

    • BrianDavion

      I doubt they’ll get ridda it for that reason.the heresy stuff is a biiiig seller.

  • Rob brown

    Is it me or does the marine second from the right look like he’s wet himself?

  • Luca Lacchini

    I’ll buy a couple of vehicle kits I need to round up my older, “tired” (sigh) Space Marines force, and stop right there.

    I think I’ll keep the roidmarines from the new boxed set (which I’m most definitively buying), and if the fancy strikes me, paint them in a very different color scheme than my Crimson Fists, to be added as specialists/elites to other forces (IG and AdMech).
    However, not going full range, despite appreciating the overall look; I find them a blander if more powerful clone of something I can already field on its own with more enthusiasm, so… thanks, but no.

  • Marco Marantz

    I really dislike Sigmarines…worst part of 8th Ed thus far. The extra points for an extra wound, attack and save modifier will not be reflective of the actual benefit. Its a modest change in the stat line but in game it will be pretty big.

    • I think the range-increase and -1AP already will be worth it alone. Making them double as resilient to enemy shooting even more so. The +1A is just a needless bonus to me.

      • euansmith

        “And they have an extra attack too.”

        “To do what? Punch the bullet riddled corpses of their enemies?”

        • Wait until the Intercessors get new brothers called Punchamuchos with jump packs and close assault weapons, it will matter 😉

          • KingAceNumber1

            I actually think the assault version will be the most common variant we see. The bolt rifles are nice, but 2w assault marines with +1A is a pretty big selling point.

  • I will move my Trumarines to full 30K and collect Numarines for 40K. Don’t really like the fluff of having two types of marines. But lack the new models and the upgraded model.

  • David Leimbach

    This is really unfortunate for my new Deathwatch army. I have 3 units squads unassembled waiting for new stats so I can decide how to equip them. They’re practically a new release that is now pretty pointless.
    Is there any point to building out this army now?

    • Devourer

      At least my Deathwatch models from Overwatch game are already bigger than normal marines and come on bigger bases if i remember correctly. They don’t fit in my transport foam pockets for normal marines.

  • Devourer

    I actually like the models but my heart bleeds when I think about all the Spcae Marine heroes I know who are now “the deprecated guys”.
    And I hate the trend that 40k becomes a game of big models. When the first bigger rhinos came out I was a huge fan but with all the knights, giant dreadnought variants and so on I totally changed my opinion on this…

    • Lumpenprole

      Welcome to the experience of growing old, getting deprecated is just one of the perks.

  • Now, the big question is: which chapter?
    Ultramarines? I painted one and liked painting that blue.
    Crimson Fists? Like the scheme too.
    Red Scorpions? Tried a while to mount an army, but switched to another color…

    • euansmith

      Undercoat Marines.

  • David Leimbach
    • ZeeLobby

      For some, it’ll be the end. For others, they’ll complain at first, but buy them anyway. And then there’s the third group that thinks the fluff behind this is brilliant and that everyone should just be grateful that GW is making more stuff for them to buy. Im not sure if I’ll ever understand that third group…

      • And then there’s the group that complains, doesn’t buy anything and just counts-as a full army of them.

        • ZeeLobby

          Well, they’ll be shunned at most public events, so they probably don’t leave their friends basement and I never run into them anyway :D.

          • Thatroubleshootah

            This is exactly why I would never play in a tournament. I have a hundred and thirty marines fully painted and based on twenty five mm bases. I’m never replacing those models. Ever. I might use the Marines in the starter set in my army but that’s where this nonsense ends.

            I might go with counts as for my whole force. But a full army repurchase ain’t gonna happen.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I mean it’s one of the sad things about them going this route. It pretty much forces anyone who plays publicly to eventually upgrade their whole force. People see it is them being “nice” to the community, when really its a way to enforce sales. Oh well.

          • Rob brown

            Have you got any examples of that? I’ve just checked the 2017 ITC rules and it says nothing of the sort.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, you have to check the actual tournament rules. The ITC is just modifications of the 40K ruleset. Clearly the core rules have nothing that says counts-as is illegal, or that you can bring anything as anything.

            NOVA Open – “If a game or an opponent’s experience is negatively impacted by an extremely unclear army due to counts-as modeling, the head judge and convention organizer both maintain the right to modify your army list or remove models from play.”

            Adepticon – “Count-as models MUST be WYSIWYG, appropriately equipped
            and sized accordingly in order to best represent the model/unit in question. Count-as armies should
            demonstrate exceptional effort when it comes to conversions, simply using an existing army with a
            different codex (as a proxy) is NOT allowed.”

            In the end they’ll all have to rule on your proposed solution, but imagine a playing field where 90% of the models are minimarines, but 50% are counts-as numarines. That would just be a nightmare to play into. Honestly using smaller marines with the current LoS shooting rules is definitely “modeling to an advantage” that NO tournament allows.

          • Rob brown

            You’ll have to wait and see to find out if NOVA considers 5mm and a slightly longer gun extremely unclear.

          • ZeeLobby

            You do understand that what you just stated is crux of the point. The differences are so minor that it is extremely unclear. If it’s difficult for your opponent to discern or remember whether you’re new marines or old marines because half the old marine players are playing counts-as new marines, and those minor differences could/couldn’t mean anything, then that’s a perfect example of the confusion all events want to avoid. (again your choosing to completely ignore the size difference and it’s pertinence to advantaged play).

          • Rob brown

            I don’t have that problem when someone tells me they’re playing a 30k ultramarines army rather than a 40k one. The unit sizes are different, the weapon load outs are different. And most importantly they told me.

            We’re not talking about mixing armies here. With some old rules and some new. I’m talking about the wholesale replacement.

      • Parthis

        Will it also be the end of you posting in 40K threads on this site?

        • ZeeLobby

          I might follow you around ;D

    • markdawg

      They will all end up getting new armies. So they released the TAC squad equivalent. Soon Terminators, ASM, Devastators, and new cool looking tanks transports and flyers. People will buy them the stats are better and it’s the new hotness when have you ever seen people lay off that?

  • Antoine Henry

    Well, funny part, they are using marketing to try to not make it appears like “Age of Sigmar” but actually its 92% Age of Sigmar. 90% same core rules, same change of model size, squatting old armies soon incoming (or at least, they are saying nono, but nonetheless, they will not release anything for them anymore). Well, won’t change a thing for me, i am not giving them any cash anymore.

    • Scatter 667

      Could you please elaborate on how you came up with the numbers? What is your base for that, or are you just assuming as most of the people how just have nothing else to do than complain?
      There a 4 pages of AOS rules, 40k will have 12 without the detachments. I would really like to know how that is 90%?
      What change in model size? for now its a new unit, not a substitution.
      The army books are not out yet, so how to you know whats going to be squated? Actually all modell available now will get rules.
      I really don’t know whats up with those people. reasoning seems rare these days but blowing things out of proportion the new normal. sad world we live in…

      • ZeeLobby

        Lol. I mean take whatever side you want, but the new ruleset is closer to AoS than it is to 5th edition. I’d say its more like 80% AoS. Maybe 81%.

        • Scatter 667

          I also play SWA, which is based on necromunda, which in turn is based on 2edition. There you have movement stats, you have armour modifiers, there are hit modifiers. There were older 40k versions where Characters already couldn’t join units, 4edi? 5edi? i don’t know which exactly.

          yes i do agree they took rules directly from AOS, but all the numbers are just random nonsense contributions! it just doesn’t make any sense at all, but to appear as if the point would be valid. maybe its the year of alternative facts and random number generators;-)

          • In every 40k edition characters were allowed to join units. Just in 2nd they were so powerful and fast (especially with Warp-Spider- or Falcon-Jetpack :P) that nobody wanted to join them in.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Hence my 81. But just because the numbers may be random doesn’t mean that the point is false. People were defending GW to death claiming that 40K would never be AoSed. Now looking at the fluff and/or rules, I’d say it’s been pretty AoSed. Maybe with the dial turned down to 10 from 11.

          • Scatter 667

            I don’t care to defend GW, but what i want is a discussion on the basis of information, not exaggerations to what ever side. 8th is coming and people fear changes, but starting to condemn because you assume is nonsense, as it using random numbers to make a non-valid point.
            The fluff is AOSed? what exactly? What was blown up, what disapeared? I for now, only see additions, primarchs, re-sculpts, new models. the universe was not blown up, was it?
            Rules wise there are paralels, but as i made my point, those things were on and offs already in earlier itterations, so whats the point with the punshline “sigmarized”? You what to thrive on the fear of people and become a follower of slaanesh;-)

          • Antoine Henry

            my 90% is maybe too much, its not a precise number but more a “way” to express that it is the same core game. Please check AoS FAQ to see the exact number of the 4 pages it is (you have a lot more pages on the FAQ /errata for those 4 pages). Sigmarines are exactly the same thing as Primaris Marines effect. This is the exact same pattern when you speak about Marketting usage. They are just way better at making it look good than what they did with Age of Sigmar. They knew that saying “Marines are being changed by new minis” would have a bad effect, so they are trying to make it feel better but, we know that in the end, they will be squatted. The fluff is not much different, except of those bigmarines, they just added the Age of Sigmar flavor of saying “See your veterans ? Well now, genetics changed, those guy with 0 experience of battlefield are better… Of COURSE not, this is a very bad fluff or how the presented yet.

          • Scatter 667

            again, we haven’t seen the full rules, but you claim its the same core rules. I don’t agree with that and we will see that after release.
            The numarines are of course a catering to the marines and imperium specifically. If they are the same as sigmarines we don’t know yet.
            The model range if so huge for space marines, that it will take ages to produce all the modells in the new scale to subsitute the old once. Bikes, speeders, Terminators, all chapter specific scults and units and additional upgrade stuff. I just don’t see it yet. For now its just another deathwatch type faction.
            Fluff wise it seems your problem is, that your marines are not top notch anymore. Guess what: Traitor marines spend 10k years fighting battles and to them all marines are youngsters, but on the battlefield those younsters outperform them since 10years. So now you fear the nerf stick and losing the title of hero of the imperium? i know its hard, but if rules will really get ballanced you should brace, hard times ahead….

          • “it will take ages to produce all the modells” – that’s exactly why GW is doing it. They are preparing for another 30 years of selling Space Marines. What would they sell if not new kits of the same, but still slightly different stuff?

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Yeah. I mean they’re not idiots. SMs make money. SM market is saturated. Make new SMs, phase out old.

          • Scatter 667

            They can introduce new units and new stuff, like they did with custodes, sos, deathwatch you name it. they can expand the range and sell more stuff and not the same but slightly different. Noone is going to rebuy the very same army again, but additions are made. Its makes much more sense, since people with 5000 or 10000 points stil can add something truely new instead of a resculpt. I know players, who don’t buy the recent marine minis range, because it doesn’t fit to their old 100+ marine sculpts. But adding new units isn’t breaking the look of the army, since there is no old equivalent.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean but the rumors are already pointing to assault, terminators, dreadnaughts and vehicles. I mean it’s all very “samey” isn’t it. And how many people rebased their entire army in 32mm bases? This is a much bigger leap but you’re crazy if you don’t think SM players will make it.

            The biggest difference here is now to play at official events, and most likely many events, proxying minimarines is illegal. Next step is to stop producing minimarines, and then there’s only so much you can do before making the jump.

          • Nobody is forcing you to switch. I still believe this to be a switch sooner or later and not just an addition.

          • euansmith

            Some people still play with ancient Citadel white-metal marines, some still use older versions of plastic marines, but I think that the majority of long time players upgraded to the new models with each wave of replacement.

          • Crevab

            “I don’t care to defend GW,”

            riiiight

          • Scatter 667

            As a CSM player with a 4.5 years old codex i really have nothing to defend gw for. I run 15 year old berzerker and 20 year old havoc sculpts. They f***ed up a lot.
            We all feared the end times of 40k, but what i see so far its not end times, but evolution and addition. Thething is not even out but people think they already know everthing.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean personally I don’t consider AoSification as a condemnation, so I want to make that clear. But for some it’s exactly what they didn’t want to see happen.

            I mean doesn’t it look like they walked into a design meeting and were like “well, people didn’t like it when we blew up the old world, and I know that’s what we were planning for 40K as well, so how bout we just blow up half?” *everyone nods*. I mean they’ve introduced not only plot mechanics to remove certain factions from the game, but time-travel plot holes and “bubbles” to justify conflict between anyone/anywhere. I mean the fluff direction is pretty reminiscent as well. Like I said they just dialed it down to 10.

          • Scatter 667

            I know and i dont want AoSification either, because the rules seem to simple, not granular enough army composition, playing combos and adding buffs appears to me like playing trade card games, not a tabletop.
            I think the fluff needed to move on. Nothing really happend and the 13th black crusade took ages and Failbaddon seemed to fail yet again.
            They opened a lot of lope holes and plot lines to evolve the fluff. Yes they could also squat chapters, but they know they will piss off people. It makes no sense moneywise to do that. Rather keep the players and make them buy new units.

          • ZeeLobby

            Uh… It makes total sense if they’re not generating money anymore. Warhammer Fantasy battle and several of it’s factions say hello! I mean you can’t make statements like that when there’s recent glaring evidence that GW will clearly piss off people if it thinks it’ll generate more money in the long run. It’s one of the main reasons Black Templars have been slowly folded back into vanilla.

            The real question is WHY do they need loop holes to evolve the fluff? Why can’t they just use good writing? If 8th started with Chaos invading Terra and dominating that segment of the galaxy that would have been a totally loop-hole free advancement of the fluff. Now we have a giant tear across the galaxy and bubbles of time and space. It’s how I imagine a child would write a make-believe universe.

            I dunno. IMO they had plenty of ground to cover without having to cut half the galaxy off. There’s like gradual progression, and then there’s like blowing up the universe. They seem to be incapable of the former.

          • Scatter 667

            It is true for fantasy. the game was to complex for new players to pick up and it was a hard cut with a messed up start of AoS. I actually was never interested in fantasy and never wanted to use regiment bases and all the manuevering, it reminded me to much to historical battles, which are around, like hail ceasar and stuff. its just not my cup of tea.
            But 40k is the cash cow of gw and marines are the posterboys! Heck even i own sm without playing them. You can not do the same move against the majority of your customers which pay your bills. But you can introduce new stuff and make them add it to the collection.
            In the new edition all factions will be combined in imperium, chaos, xenos. So we will see how different the chapters will be. Judgeing by traitor legions, my guess is that all founding chapters will get their unique rules and play styles.
            The fluff is not out. We only have a few articles, which present the highlights. I would be surprised if they don’t flash out the story and tell us whats goind on exactly. From that point of view its like a short summary on the back of a book, which does or does not tell you the story.
            I just think its far to early for any conclusions. i what to play my world eaters first, crash skulls and feel the new edition before i make my final judgement. I have no time but actually would like to play test what we know so far. that would be fun;-)

          • ZeeLobby

            40K has had a drop in profits for the last couple years. It requires some reading through the lines, but AoS has supposedly exceeded sales and expectations, while sales have continued to drop yearly. That has to be coming from somewhere.

            It may be too early to scientifically state anything, sure, but why even discuss anything if you can’t draw conclusions. And with GW we have a pretty huge example of their capabilities and thought process. No one thought the old world would be split into bubbles, or that factions would be axed, when AoS was dropped but yet… I’m just saying, you might want to up your guard a bit. You don’t want to be one of those staunch GW defenders who eventually has their foot in their mouth. That’s all.

          • Scatter 667

            again, i don’t care about defending gw, since i play CSM and GW didn’t care about chaos, which is why i still have my 4.5year old codex!
            You can up your guard and sell your army, as you stated somewhere else. I might even buy one of those rage quit armies and start sm myself on the cheap;-)
            I think its just the fact, that you think you got out-dated and thats whats pissing you off!
            Know what: i run MK1 Rhinos and Predators, metal terminators, oblits, Abaddon and Kharn and i dont care! People even enjoy some of the old stuff. And yes i have new stuff too! But i get it, some have to have the new and shiny toys and they are pissed if there is something fancy new in town! It will show in tournaments within the first 3 months, if it makes a difference. Deathwatch was hyped and nowhere to be seen in competitive play.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I’m not selling my army out of rage. I’m selling my army while it still has value and because I think the new models look much better. My disgust with this development has always been the fluff, not the models themselves. Models look great. The fluff, and what they’re doing to the 40K universe to push sales, is just downright heartbreaking. If it works we’ll just see more and more of it going forward. I don’t want the fluff to chase the models, I want the fluff to build the universe, and to buy the models where I see fit. GW used to separate these very well.

            As for this being a phase-out, I think that it’s pretty obvious, and we seem to get more pointers to that direction daily. I just wish they didn’t have to drag the fluff through it.

          • Scatter 667

            So it is the new and shine stuff you want. see, now we talk! But following your line of thought your army old now so the value droped badly.

            The fluff is only known in excerpts so we cant know yet.
            i dont really see where the daily update on the phase out comes from. If you are interessed in selling your outdated models, let me know! maybe i want to add some antiques to my collection;-)

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Will do. The daily updates are numarines getting vehicles, dreads, assault variants, etc. There’s only so many references of overlap you can consume while still believing both will forever be separate factions.

            From a fluff standpoint, minimarines are just an inferior and dying breed now. I liked my marines because they were the best of the best. Now they’re like elite imperial guard, lol. I don’t really have an interest of playing that army, and most people I know who enjoy space marines don’t either.

          • Scatter 667

            There were no daily updates, all was droped and said the same day, no updates, but ok…
            You perfectly summarize what i’m saying all the time already: dying breed, 2nd class space marines, not top notch anymore! You always need to have the badest and greatest heros in the galaxy and therefore have to get the numarines and drop your old trustworthy army only for the new and shiny toys. I’m fine with that, but thats what i’m saying all along. You don’t even need a test game to drop your old hero army, to run for the new uber-heros of the imperium! I truely hope that all that desire, desprate need and pain will strengthn Slaanesh and enable a fabulous comeback;-)

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean why would anyone want to continue playing an army that doesn’t get new things? And by daily updates I meant leaks and rumors, not just from them. I mean we saw dreadnaughts as coming for them. We’ve seen images of their different variants shoulder markings. So I’m not really sure where the confusion comes from.

            And yeah. Thematically why would anyone pick second-hand marines, besides the fact that they’re already stuck with them.

    • Parthis

      Also 82.4%of statistics are simply made up.

  • AX_472

    Stop with all the doom saying! And how can “numarines” be stormcasts when stormcasts were clearly space marines for fantasy?! and as for those of you saying you’ll “counts as” your entire space marine force why not just have your dreads count as grav centurions and scouts count as regular marines too? get your heads out of your asses and enjoy these for what they are. Pimp additions to any imperial army, something different to add to the ever increasing number of tactical squads people own, and new models to paint. Beyond that, in a years time they’ll be just another part of the furniture.

  • vaguelycertain

    Personally I’m sort of onboard with primaris marines because I’ve wanted to start a chaos marine army for ages and presumably this means that they might actually update the models. Maybe. I don’t think I’ll be buying any more loyalist marines though, just finish painting the ones I have.

  • Tom Fägrell

    I think we can be fairly certain that GW will not continue to release models for the old space marine range. The Primari are going to completely replace them over the next couple of years. Pretty quick the old line will start to feel … old, and there will be very little demand for them. Much like bretonnians or tomb kings in Age of Sigmar.

    What is interesting is how this will affect the chaos marines. Because I think they too will beef up. I would be surprised if the Death Guards in the new starter box don’t stand up in bulk to their smurf counterparts.

    • ZeeLobby

      I think people have already said that they are larger and “warp-infused”, lol. But yeah, as soon as they said they’d be getting assault squads, terminator squads, vehicles and dreadnaughts it was pretty much a given the old stuff is going to be phased out.

      • Did they clearly say the types of squads they will get? As far as I know they so far only vaguely hinted it – which if you know GW for a while is basically as good as a full confirmation unless it’s about plastic Sisters or Aspects of course.

        • Tom Fägrell

          The only thing they did say was a primaris dreadnought, but that pretty much blows the field wide open. In image in the article from what appears to be the starter set there are some assault marines. It would surprise me if those weren’t primaris.

          • I’m not sure, they look lifted from the ground, but not as large as Primaris.

          • Tom Fägrell

            We’ll see, but like I said, I don’t think GW will release any more of the old range marines, so I don’t think we will see any in the new starter box either.

          • My personal guess is just one squad of Numarines in the new starter, but we’ll see.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean if it’s from the starter, why would they have minimarines in the artwork. That would seem odd to me. And the assault/Terminator variant rumor came from Hastings I think. Could be wrong but the rumor has so far been spot on.

          • Maybe GW believes in their own marketing-yadda about ‘these are not replacements, these are additional troops’.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Touche. I wouldn’t put it past them to believe in anything at this point.

          • euansmith

            Primaris Dreadnought Alpha, “Hey, look guys, its old Bjorn Fellhand! How you doin’ little fella?”

    • SB

      Actually, the sculptor of the death guard marines stated that they’re the same size as the custodes.

  • plasticvicar

    All forgeworld needs now is to completely redo every single space marine armour set from 30 and 40k into bigmarine sizes and i’ll be satisfied. Hell just make all primarchs a head taller too, truescale is here to stay, might as well make it all consistent.

    • Oh yea, another 8 years of Marine-only-releases from FW. Finally a way to pump out even more Dreads and armour-marks.

      • ZeeLobby

        Haha. I bet they’re all for it. It’s like a money printer for them.

        • Obviously it is. 7+ armour marks for 18 legions, 5+ different units types each, 4+ different types of dreads and now even primaris on top. That’s a huge amount of products to push out.

    • Crevab

      Plz no. At least these guys have a reason for being huger. We don’t need to throw off what little scale there is in this game

      • The Deathwatch and Ynnari are already bigger and GW said the Death Guard will be too. So I’d not be surprised to see the entire game go up in scale a bit. They do that for 30 years already.

    • Tom Fägrell

      GW did say that Shoulder pads and heads will be interchangeable between the two ranges.

  • Emprah

    Honestly I’ll just either upgrade my old marines and count them as “truescale regular Astartes” or just add 10 new guys to my Blood Ravens, saying they were a gift from Guilliman.

    But I’ll be putting Mark 7 helmets on them and claiming they are Mark 8.

    • euansmith

      Surely if you are playing Blood Ravens, you should paint them up as members of other chapters and claim your guys swiped them. 😉

  • Heinz Fiction

    Come next edition the old marines will probably cease to exist.

    • euansmith

      Old Marines new die, they simply fade away.

      • Drpx

        Like Necrons, they phase out past a certain point.

        • euansmith

          “The Sarg didn’t make it… sob…”

          “Don’t worry, son; he’s got to the great bitz box in the sky.”

  • ZeeLobby

    It’s pretty clear that making them a separate faction in the rules and fluff also makes it illegal to use minimarines as counts-as at any events. Well played GW. Well played.

  • Big Red

    Just real quick, I am loving all the chicken little’s crying the sky is falling running around in the comments. I mean everyone knows that Game Workshop is going to hire thugs to come to your house, destroy your old space marines, kick your dog and punch your mum in the gut.

  • Big Red

    Just real quick, I am loving all the chicken little’s crying the sky is falling running around in the comments. I mean everyone knows that Game Workshop is going to hire thugs to come to your house, destroy your old space marines, kick your dog and punch your mum in the gut.
    http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41d182ec53cfe19a523d067346d7b2abbc565106b002a757c582b46fd0fca535.png

    EDIT: I just remembered this video which seams oddly appropriate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgDiCnYjog

    • Crevab

      Nice to see where you stand, I guess

      • ZeeLobby

        Like he’d stand anywhere else, haha.

    • Really, the sky is falling? Haven’t seen such a comment here yet. I guess people read what they want to read. 🙂

      • ZeeLobby

        “They don’t immediately praise this news, they must be burning their armies right now!” I wish we could get back to the world where there’s a middle ground that is recognized.

        • If you’re not with me, you’re my enemy!

    • Scatter 667

      i couldn’t agree more! crymarines should be one of the new official chapters;-)

  • Sch Ds

    Does anyone else think the arms of the Marine in the artwork above look really slim? Maybe the lower legs are utterly packed with extra systems and stuff..
    Ok..I looked at the actual pic of the models, and their arms and hands look just right in relation to the rest.

  • Thatroubleshootah

    Not replacing my 130 model marine army. Not starting a third marine army. Will be adding numarines from starter set to my army. Might buy more Numarines used for a dollar a throw.

    • markdawg

      Yeah right when you get stopped by bigger stronger tougher better looking SM I think you’ll change your tune.

  • Parthis

    The Intercessor squad isn’t “better” than a 10 man Tactical squad. Same wound count, but more susceptible to multi-wound weapons. They’re locked on loadouts, etc. They don’t invalidate Tactical Squads, Terminators, Custodes or Sternguard. They have a place as Sternguard-lite troops…

    From a miniature PoV they even work with upgrade kits from both GW and FW…

    … this is, by GW’s standards, a remarkably respectful release and addition.

    The idea that this somehow invalidates existing marines is just absurd.

  • Boondox

    These guys are going to look awesome next to my RTB01 Beakies!! And the fluff is perfect for reinforcing my Crimson Fist army after the Battle of Rynn. Can’t wait for 8th ed!!

  • benn grimm

    Have tbh, finding this whole thing pretty amusing, so much fuss and hype over what are literally just slightly bigger space marines; ‘The galaxy has been torn asunder, mankind is on its knees, but wait, for the last ten thousand years one man has dedicated himself to solving a problem he didn’t know existed when he started, hope has arrived, like a shining beacon of angelic brutality they come…. the slightly taller mk 4 marines….lol…)

    • ZeeLobby

      It is pretty funny. I personally have no issue with the models, I think they look great. It’s the shoe-horned fluff to justify the eventual phase-out which I just think is pure tosh. It takes 40K down this scary road where story will be used more and more to push favorable sales. Just not a fan, haha. I always felt like GW did a pretty good job of separating background from miniature sale performance. The more that blurs, the less interesting the story will become imo.

      • benn grimm

        Yeah, agreed, they look cool, however such super dumb (and so unnecessary) fluff.

    • Muninwing

      it’s all pretty silly…

  • OrksIsMadeFerRockin

    Really not looking forward to telling my marine armies that they are no longer the biggest baddest protectors of humanity the grimdark has to offer. In all seriousness though it really sucks that my plastic dudes are now second fiddle and always will be. I know I could ignore them or pretend they don’t exist or pretend my marines are big Marines but since this rumor broke I have had a half built vehicle and a half painted squad sitting on my desk. Not a fan of aos but I have been hopeful about 8th now 2/5 of my armies feel invalidated. I know I can still use them but in the future it will be in the same way I can use my goblins, empire and regular dwarves.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah. It does feel wrong that your once pinnacle of humanity faction is now 2nd hand. I may even pick up numarines at some point, but I’m positive I’m going to sell my old ones now.

  • This is their way of replacing the old marine line. Instead of just outright doing it in one fell swoop, they are doing it piece at a time.

    To me its meh. I dont’ really care. If the marines in 8th are as busted as they can be in 7th I’ll pick up an army for my git gud games. I’ve always wanted to do an Iron Hands army.

    If I had an older marine army I honestly would give zero ****s and would continue using them.

  • Deathwing

    Big picture – This is a genius way to completely revamp the marine line without angering the main revenue base (MEQ players/collectors). As they roll out a primarus equivalent for each and every space marine model box over the next year or so, then once the entire line is out as the molds for the current standard marine line require replacing, they just don’t replace them and let one standard marine box at a time go out of print. I would expect this to happen with the standard boys in blue boxes first then the side chapters, and over the next 2-3 years to soften the blow on the customer base to keep them happy through out the transition and to allow for a slow replacing of the molds, the box art, etc. There is a lot of MEQ boxes to convert over, and it is absolutely in Games Workshops best interest to do so for everything over the long run, but again – over the long run (2-3 years)

    • And Space Marines won’t be the only ones. They shadowed something similar by introducing Ynnari and surely the same will happen with the Imperial Guard.

    • Deathwing

      Also guarantees a solid long term (2-3 yr) revenue stream that can be stretched month to month to even out the profit line, which makes the financials quarter to quarter look great.

  • RAKSHA

    It will make sense to have terminators primaris bikes jump infantry etc..they will be there trust me those are the future of space marines this is just first step to get rid of old ones..they will use story for that..hmm blood angels are alone now surrounded by chaos they may survive but having lost almost all marines they will start using new primaris to replenishing the losses ..and here you go this is how GW will replace old models..simple but effective..they will do it slowly to not make us angry but the change is coming..

    • Yea. Just wondering if they will still be BloodAngels then. Probably not, because no black rage, no long teeth, no blood thirst.

      • RAKSHA

        thats also going for space wolves to no wulfen lol..salamanders too

  • twincast

    Oh dear little beakies, don’t be sad; I still love you(r lore) best. 🙂

    • JPMcMillen

      I’ve got 50-60 of those original plastic beakies. Still, I would gladly pay the HH tax to get some modern boxes with nothing but mark VI’s in them.

  • Rob brown

    I think part of the problem seems to be the lack of information caused by the fact that we are dealing with teases and rumours.

    There are two options…

    1. The Primaris marines are intended as a replacement. In this case old models will become out of print, whether it takes 3 months or 3 years. The company isn’t going to invalidate thousands of players armies/conversions/work and neither will the tournaments. If Primaris Marines are the new space marines incarnation the solution if you have a large army is to continue using classic models as many exsting ‘classic’ armies do, with newer unique models that didn’t exist in their old ranges mixed in. After all you don’t see people complaining when someone uses the old metal pink horrors – you say “wow, I havent seen them for ages, they look ace”. You don’t get someone saying wait you’re using a 2rd edition Wolf Guard model you can’t use thunder hammers. You get “wow is that what the 2rd edition model, don’t they look small.”

    2. This is just another faction like Skitari, Harlequins etc and isn’t intended to replace anything. In which case existing armies continue to be supported and the new marines are bought as allies, or a few elites in the same way deathwatch or Veterans are used. Sure the fluff is crap and they’ll be better than regular marines to sell models, but armies have been coming out that way for the last ten years.

    In either case, new and old players are catered for and new models will be sold. Provided tournament advisers and stores are reasonable – there is nothing to make me think they won’t be.

  • Drpx

    Boltgun, power armor, 4s across the stats and they hit stuff on 3s. How are these marines different again?

    • davepak

      two wounds and a significantly better gun with rending?

      • Rob brown

        So basically two wound vets

      • Drpx

        Stern guard yay

  • AircoolUK

    Regardless of the pro’s and con’s, we all know fine well that these things are just going to fly off the shelf.

    On the day of release, there will be people walking out of shops carrying a big pile of boxes.

    The starter box holds little of interest for me as there’s no Crimson Fists or Dark Angels. However, whilst most of my Dark Angels were from the Dark Vengeance box (I myself walked out of our LFGS with three Limited Edition boxes piled high), all my Crimson Fists, bar a squad or two are all at least 20 years old and packed away.

    I do have some PredRhinos (magnets FTW) undercoated along with a Land Raider and some old metal Dreads currently undergoing a paint strip, so I can see myself throwing money at GW for new Marines.

    But I will not be the only one…

  • Scribe

    Never bought a single Judge Dredd smurf in my life and still don’t intend to.

    Death guard however? Bring it on. I’ll be buying Mortarion this year.

  • Rob brown

    I find it really odd, that they are Primaris, when clearly they’re second or perhaps even third. If it’s because they came from the primarchs then I’d be worried, because there is some seriously F’d up geneseed in there.

    GW naming conventions are universally terrible. Usually the only time it isn’t is when they pinched the name from somewhere else. lol.

  • Ben Martin

    I feel I’m one of the few here who don’t mind, actually kinda like the Gullimarines and the ideas they open up fluff-wise.

    People are talking about the fluff being ruined though, could someone please explain how? I can’t really see it

  • helter266

    wait… 5 primaris marines, 10 wounds, 10 attacks… 10 tactical marines, 10 wounds, 10 atttacks, special and heavy weapons (and with new combi rules, two spiecial weapons) same T, same save… so the only thing better is 6 inches on shooting (but less shots) and AP -1? i fail to see what makes them better than tactical squad…?

  • Bellumvinco

    For now; I’ll treat them as Elites and buy at least a squad. Will I dump cash for a full army of them…no time soon. I cool them though.

    I am interested to see the 1st Primaris Special Characters.

  • Spacefrisian

    Its time for Primaris Sororitas.

  • MechBattler

    Yo Dawg, we heard you like Space Marines….
    http://imgflip.com/s/meme/Yo-Dawg-Heard-You.jpg

  • Timotheus

    If “old fashioned” marines won’t get any updates or new models anymore, GW won’t see any more money from me. Simple as that.

    I’ve put WAY too much lifeblood, time and money into my existing”little” fellas to simply move over to the new shiny guys in town. And I will NOT mix them either as this doesn’t make any sense at all fluffwise and designwise. The new models look good, yes. But they don’t fit into my army because the gap between them and the totally appropriate Mk 8 Deathwatch marines is just too big. (Sad enough as I always dreamed about true scale marines…without any replacing fluff nonesense though.)

    PS: Those who are not able to understand the “crying” about “minor size and design changes” in a range of scifi models should maybe move over to another blog as this one is for dedicated wargamer and hobbyists as far as I know *sigh*…

  • KreskinsESP

    They’re totes a separate unit, guys, and we’re totes not slowly phasing out the old Marines.

    • Timotheus

      Are you a Troll or GW-official?

  • EvilCheesypoof

    Model phase out or not, use your old marines proudly, add the new guys or don’t, make up fluff for either reason! Use your resentment/happiness towards them to fuel the narrative, they already implied not every chapter is gonna be all that happy about it.

    Let’s say they are going to eventually replace the Marines with these guys, why is anybody surprised? People have been asking for true-scale, people have been asking for tougher Marines, and GW wants to sell you models, and most of us like buying new toys.

    Also I don’t see why it’s a huge problem fluff-wise, the setting is pretty stagnant, and humanity’s best soldiers aren’t cutting it. So they made better ones.

    Either way, I am optimistic old marines will have usable rules, even if they’re no longer the standard poster child of the game. They’re the most popular models from the last 30 years, they’re not gonna say “Nah, they suck now”.

    They’re basically just saying Sterngaurd is the new standard type of Marine, and tacticals are like scouts. They’ll have their uses.

    • BaronSnakPak

      Exactly. People are acting like SM models have never been updated through the last 30 years,or that they’ve never been given new marks of armor. It’s baffling.

      It’s not the end of the world, people, it’s just more toys.

  • Grand_Master_Raziel

    I could see myself gradually replacing my existing army with NuMarines, starting with the more high-profile units that move around and do things, and eventually replacing even backfield support and objective holding units.
    .
    One thing I’m wondering – once the range is fully swapped out, is GW going to walk back the stats? AP as a modifier to armor saves will work as long as AP modifiers aren’t too widely spread. Give AP -1 to the basic weapon of Marine armies, and you’re going to o have everyone (except maybe IG players) coming up with reasons why their armies should get it too. GW will start to oblige, and pretty soon what’s listed for a figure’s armor save becomes meaningless. That’s not even addressing having a whole army where every mini has 2 wounds or more – what a pain to keep track of that will be.

  • sonny2dap .

    heads and shoulders are same scale yes? well guess I’ll be making some Archean pattern Primaris marines using the forgeworld kits, new lore Mark X is actually a prosperran design that girlyman stole 10K years ago.