40K: Bonus Attacks Rules Conundrum

Get ready rules experts – we got a curve ball for you: How many bonus attacks do you get with Scything Talons?

So my play ground and I came across an interesting question during a game: How many bonus attacks do creatures equipped with multiple scything talons get? Now, before we get into that let’s take a look at all the relevant rules and an example:


Fight Phase – 4. Choose Melee Weapon:

“If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.”

Here we have the Trygon Prime with it’s relative rules showing. We see that the Trygon Prime is equipped with the following:

  • Bio-electric Pule with Containment Spines (ranged ‘weapon’ – not relevant to this example)
  • a biostatic rattle (melee weapon – but not relevant here)
  • Three pairs of Massive scything talons

Here is where the issue starts. The Scything Talon rule say this:

(Massive/Monstrous/Regular) Scything Talons:
“You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.”

We all know that the old bonus of +1 attack for having more than one melee/close-combat weapon is gone. No one is arguing that.

We all know that the Trygon will get at minimum +1 attack for using it’s scything talons. That’s not the issue.

The issue is this:

What if the player splits their attacks using each weapon, and each weapon has that special rule, does that mean they get +3 attacks?

“But the weapon profile is only listed once! It’s one blob of weapons!”

Wait a minute – that’s not how that works either. Think about shooting weapons: If you have predator with two “heavy bolters” just because your datasheet only lists “heavy bolters” once doesn’t mean you only get to shoot one heavy bolter. The model comes with two and you get to fire two. Why are melee weapons treated different?

Maybe it would help to write it’s wargear like this:

  • Bio-electric Pule with Containment Spines (ranged ‘weapon’ – not relevant to this example)
  • a biostatic rattle (melee weapon – but not relevant here)
  • First pair of Massive scything talons
  • Second pair of Massive scything talons
  • Third pair of Massive scything talons

If the player chooses to split attacks among it’s weapons (which they are allowed to do) does each pair qualify for the attack?

The order goes like this:

  • Player chooses First Pair
    • Does it meet the requirement of “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.” – Yes
      • +1 Attack
  • Player chooses Second Pair
    • Does it meet the requirement of “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.” – Yes
      • +1 Attack
  • Player chooses Third Pair
    • Does it meet the requirement of “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.” – Yes
      • +1 Attack

Note that if that’s the case, you only get the bonus once per pair.

As I have been playing my Tyranids, every game I’ve played I’ve ruled this as +1 attack. Period. Now I’m starting to wonder if I was doing that wrong…

For now, I’m going to error on the side of less controversial judgement and just stick with the +1 attack and not +3. Heck, I’ve even seen folks make the case that you should get +6 attacks – I don’t agree but I also get where they are coming from. I understand both sides of this one and honestly I just don’t want to start a debate every time I play. However, when I’m not playing I do want to bring it up and talk about it.

I have really been enjoying 8th and the rules changes. The amount of ambiguity in the game has dropped dramatically. But there are still some rough spots and I’m sure GW is aware of it. Hopefully when we get new codexes those things will get hammered out. For now, I encourage you to bring up these types of things with your gaming group and make a decision outside of a game, before dice start rolling and feelings get hurt.

 

So – How many bonus attacks would the Trygon Prime get? Let us know what you think in the comments below!

  • Borja Saiz Bustamante

    Not an issue. Moving on.

    • Johan Pilestedt

      So +3 attacks.

      • AEZ

        No it’s + 1 (if you have more than 1 pair you get +1.. for 2 extra pairs it’s still +1 )

        • Nyyppä

          You have 3 of those rules. Where does it say that they do not stack?

        • Varou

          the problem is :
          it’s not +1 attack,
          it is +1 attack “with this weapon”,
          so having 3 pairs you actually have 3 of those weapons.
          The OP good example shows this : using each one of those weapon on a different target effectively trigger the binary condition (do you have equipped more than one of this weapon ? yes/no : so +1 attack with this weapon) and using each of the 3 weapons (and not 3 times the first pair) you get those +1 attack on each weapon.

          even more decades later, GW is still allergic to proofreading

          • Sergio Celi

            I don’t know how people are so obsessed in seeing the 3 Pairs as One weapon because… There is one profile in the Datasheet… They never put twice the same weapon profile even if the unit has an option of equiping 4 of the same weapons.

  • orionburn

    We ran into the same thing in my first outing with my Nids. I’m playing it as written – you only get 1 extra attack despite having 3 pairs. Why they wrote it like this is annoying. You can’t swap out melee weapons for the Trygon so what’s the point? BUT…and I hadn’t thought of this…maybe that is in there because of splitting out attacks as you said. Hopefully this gets a FAQ quickly since the Mawloc is in the same boat.

    • Gunther Clone C

      I’ve been playing +1 for each extra pair so Trygons get 8 attacks, (6 base, plus 1 for each extra pair of Scything Talons), my buddies think this is meant to be the case, seeing as how warriors with two pairs get +1, it only makes sense that something with three pairs would get +2.

      • Ceekh

        You’re doing it wrong, Gunther. The rule states “two or more”, you could have 57 pairs, you’d still only get 1 extra Attack. The difference in attacks with the Warriors get compensated in the Trygon’s profile.

        • Joshua Galvez

          That’s true, but EACH pair has that profile, so you have to apply the bonus attack rule 3 times, once per pair. Otherwise you run into other rules problems. For instance: if you count all 6 pairs as one profile then I could then argue that a predator Lascannons sponsons can only be fired as 1 Lascannon, which us ridiculous.

          • AEZ

            All those pairs have the same rule: if you have more 1 or more extra pairs (so 1, 2, 3 or 1000000) you get one extra attack. There is nothing in the rule mentioning stacking.
            7 attacks max.

          • Nyyppä

            Nothing in the chainsword entry says anything about stacking but it’s still +1 per chainsword. How exactly is a pair of talons times 3 different than a chainsword times 2 in the context of how the additional attacks stack?

          • Ceekh

            Joshua, you’re making a fundamental error here by confusing how ranged and close combat weapons work.
            If, for instance, a tank has 4 ranged weapons, it can fire all 4 weapons, the number of shots being dictated by each weapon’s profile.
            On the other hand, close combat works the other way round, you get a set amount of Attacks, dictated by your profile and some eventual bonuses, which you spend as you wish on your different close combat options. What that means is that, even if my guy has 3 melee weapons, if he only has 1 Attack, he only gets 1 Attack choice for 1 Attack.
            And then, we must clarify how many weapons those 3 pairs represent. The answer is 1. As with all close combat weapons, having more of any doesn’t change a thing. This being said, some weapons have special rules, and the Massive Scything Talons have a rule saying that if your model has more than one pair (meaning 2 or more), you get 1 extra attack. That’s it. The amount of Talons equipped is irrelevant past 2 pairs, except for the cool factor.
            Think of it like a 2+ armor save, if you roll 2 you save a wound, same is you roll 3 or higher. Rolling a 3 doesn’t save 2 wounds, nor does rolling a 4 save 3 wounds. It works the same here, if you have 2+ pairs of Scything Talons, you get an extra Attack.

          • Karru

            Ceekh, please show me the section in the rulebook that states Ranged Weapons are always counted as separate things, even if they are not different, while Melee Weapons are not.

          • rtheom

            Ceekh is right. The ranged weapons have an attacks value listed in their type. Melee weapons do not. That is the fundamental difference between them.

          • Karru

            You seem to misunderstand my original point and the entire point of this argument.

            Ranged Weapons have their attacks given in their stat line. Melee Weapons get to attack the amount of times indicated by the users Attack value. This is correct. But that wasn’t what I was getting at.

            Ask it this way, if a datasheet indicates that he model has 3 Heavy Bolters, does the model have 3 Heavy Bolters or 1 Heavy Bolter as it is the same gun?

            After answering that question, ask yourself this one. If a datasheet indicates that the model has 3 versions of the same Close Combat Weapon, does the model have only 1 Close Combat Weapon or 3?

            That is the entire core of this argument. Some people are saying that the Trygon only has 1 “bundle” of attacks, backing it up with various different ways. Others, like me, see it like any other weapon in the game. If it is specifically stated in the sheet it has multiples of the weapon, they are all counted separately. This means that in the case of the Massive Scything Talons, you have three pairs of them. Three DIFFERENT pairs. All three have the rule that triggers if they have more than one pair. This means it gets +1 for each pair it has if it has more than 2. In this case the Trygon gets +3 attacks.

          • Nyyppä

            Stop using basic logic. You are killing the whiners’ vibe.

          • Joshua Galvez

            While you make a great point, you are misunderstanding my argument. I completely agree with everything you’ve written here except:
            “…we must clarify how many weapons those 3 pairs represent. The answer is 1.”

            The answer is unclear, there is enough support to say “the answer is 3,” or “the answer is 1.” If the answer is in fact 1, then I will concede the point. However, there is enough support to also say the answer is 3 and, therefore, the rule is unclear. It is my conclusion and that of my gaming group that the answer is 3, but I accept that we may be incorrect.

          • Sure

            The point You’re missing is that on the first attack, you choose your 1st set of talons- and since you have two or more, you get a bonus attack from having talons 2 & 3. Then you attack with the 2nd set of talons, and get yet another bonus attack because of talons 1 & 3. Then on the 3d attack you get a bonus attack for talons 1 & 2. After that it doesn’t matter which you use b/c you have exhausted the rule for each of these three weapons. Same would apply to a model with 2 attacks and 2 chainswords. You attack with a different chainsword with each attack and thus get the bonus twice for 4 attacks. The same loadout on a model with 3 attacks would only get 5 attacks because each chainsword can only give you one extra attack. While each set of scything talons are the same type of weapon, they are 3 different individual weapons. Using the chainsword example just makes the concept simpler – both are chainswords, but this is the chainsword in the model’s right hand and the other is in the left hand. Same type, but still 2 different weapons.

          • rtheom

            Your problem here is that the attacks characteristic is part of the model, not part of the weapon. So it doesn’t matter how many targets you choose. The model only gets +1 attack. Ranged weapons have an attack value of their own included in their Type. Hence why they work differently.

          • Astmeister

            Oh really? And what is happening with a Marines having 2x Chainswords?
            Would you also say that a Marine with Chainsword and Power Fist does not get the Bonus attack from the Chainsword? I think he does, because he applies all special rules of all weapons he has. And a Trygon has 3 times the same weapon. So he would RAW get +3 attacks, because you count each individually. Actually that was hard for me to understand in the beginning as well.

          • Thomson

            He has three times a weapon that grants a total of +1 attack for ALL of the weapons combined, which is different from a chain sword which simply adds +1 Attack.

            If you had 5000 Scything Talons, you would still have only 7 attacks. If you could pick each weapon to attack you could attack 5000 times. But you can only 7 times because its the attack characteristic of the Model and the total modifiers of all its weapons that counts.

            And two chainswords grant 2 attacks since each grants +1 attack, but 5000 scything talons grant +1 attack, since all of them above the first together grant +1 attack.

          • Astmeister

            Why is there a difference? Both of them grant +1 additional attack. So the Trygon has 3 times the same weapon, which is exactly the same as a Marine having 2 times the same weapon (chainsword). Each Chainsword grants +1 Attack = +2 Attacks for two. 3 Scy Tals have the wording of giving +1 A for having more than two. This means you get +1 for each = +3 attacks. The wording is no different from the chainsword in this regard. Also note that the Scy Tals do not say something like “you never gain more than a total of +1 A from this rule”. Besides this makes more sense in the context, because the 3x Scy Tals cost 60 points for the Trygons, which is really expensive.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Chainswords don’t count how many you have. Talons do.

          • Astmeister

            So if this is the only difference, than the +3 A is right. Because it never says anywhere that you only get +1 A for no matter how many Scy Tals you have.
            On a side note: I can imagine that GW meant your explanatoin. However RAW it is +3 A.

          • Horus84cmd

            You can’t assume, just because the entry doesn’t say something the opposite is true. For example the rules doesn’t say I can’t model a trygon with 10 sets of Talons, does that mean I can? It is 60pts for “two or more”. By your logic I could have a model with 10’s sets for 60pts and thus gain 10 extra attacks – but we all know that is ridiculous. Don’t cherry pick the wording on the points costings for the Talons.

          • Nyyppä

            Nice try trying to game the rules but you are wrong. It’s 8 attacks. Why? Because of the rule and math. It states that if you have more than one pairs you get to attack once more with that weapon. It has 3 of those. That’s at least 2 more attacks. It could be 3 more, that can be legitimately argued, but it is at least 2.

          • Sure

            There are 3 pairs, the wargear entry is for one pair. Good luck with those esl classes, it’s a real merit to be learning a second language.

          • Horus84cmd

            NO the wargear entry is 60pts for “two or more”. It not limited it is all inclusive. It means, if the rules allowed, you would be able to 10, 100, 1000 pairs for 60pts.

          • Sure

            Yep. I don’t see that happening anytime soon, though. That would be one hot mess of a model.

          • rtheom

            Nice to immediately resort to insults at the suggestion that you’re incorrect, but notice that the special rule refers to the entire model, not the single pair of scything talons.

          • Sure

            Insult? I was commending your hard work.

          • rtheom

            You must just be a dream opponent…

          • Nyyppä

            Also no. The answer is not unclear and it’s not “1”. It’s 2.

        • Nyyppä

          No. You can make another attack with that weapon each time it fights. It has 1+2 of those which means 2 pairs that give one additional attack each.

    • Johan Pilestedt

      No, you are not playing as written.

      It may seem simple to you but you’ve got to remember that based on the wording of the text combined with the core rules, everytime you fight with THAT weapon, you get +1 attack.

      This rule does however apply to all scything talon pairs, and in the rulebook it says you can allocate any number of attacks to each weapon. Meaning that a +X bonus per scything talon applies unless you have fewer than 2.

      (If you allocate all attacks to one pair of talons, you get +1).

      • Joshua Galvez

        Where are you getting that you have to fight with the weapon? A SM captain with one lightning claw and a chainsword can make all of his attacks from his profile with the lightning claw and still get one extra bonus attack with the chainsword.

        • Johan Pilestedt

          The wording in the lighting claw and chainsword is different.

          It says, in the talon case:
          “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.”

          They key is the THIS between ATTACK WITH and WEAPON EACH TIME IT FIGHTS.

          Break it down into logical steps:

          It can make 1 additional attack each time it fights with this weapon

          It is fighting in the fight phase.

          It has 3 pairs of scything talons.

          Each of those scything talons has this rule.

          Allocate 1 attack to each (Each will trigger the special rule), giving three instances of the special rule.

          • AEZ

            You can’t select the “different pairs”. There is one weapon profile to select.. there is nothing to pick. You have 1 melee weapon attack choice. Then you read you actually have 3 pairs of it.. which is > or = 1 extra pair so you get 1 extra attack.
            The 3 pairs line in only for that.. but in AoS AND in 8th.. you pick weapon options out of that list. and there is only 1 option there.. you CANNOT divide your attacks.

          • Joshua Galvez

            By your logic a model armed with two Lascannons can only shoot with one of them as the profile is only listed once on the datasheet.

          • AEZ

            Well this is how it works for melee in my opinion. A FAQ would be better ofc.

          • Joshua Galvez

            AEZ, you may be right, and I think Page 139 of Index: Xenos 2 supports your point. I also think this needs a FAQ.

          • rtheom

            Lascannons have their own attack value, associated with their type. Melee weapons do not. The attack value for melee weapons is on the model, not the weapon.

          • Johan Pilestedt

            So a leman russ can’t shoot with two heavy bolters because there is only one listed?

          • Spacefrisian

            Wel it comes with 1, and you may add 2.

          • rtheom

            Each heavy bolter has it’s own attack value included in its type. Melee weapons do not have an attack value.

          • Joshua Galvez

            I totally agree with you. I’m just saying that if it had another weapon to choose from, it could dump all of it’s attacks into that one and STILL get the bonus attack(s) from the scything talons because the only requirement for the rule(s) to activate is that the model fights, not that it has to attack with the weapon.

          • stinkoman

            well actually, the rule is tied to the weapon, you have to use the weapon to get the bonus rules.

          • AircoolUK

            It has three pairs of scything talons – each of those scything talons has this rule.

            That’s kind of messed up thinking as you’d need three separate pairs of three scything talons, meaning that you’d have nine pairs of scything talons.

            This is dumb logic. The three pairs of scything talons aren’t individual weapons, they’re just one weapon which, because there are three pairs, gains you +1 attack.

            The three pairs are a single weapon. Otherwise, if you split each pair into discrete attacks, you’d not get the bonus for having an extra pair because you’re not using any extra pairs to make THAT attack.

            Unbelievable!

          • Joshua Galvez

            Nowhere is the word ‘extra’ in the profile of the weapon.

          • Calgar

            In this case you are attacking with each scyting talon, then counting the others to qualify for the more than 1 pair bonus attack. Then using each of those, and again counting the other 2 as the bonus for the extra attack.

            So that at the end to get +3 attacks you have used each pair of scything talons a minimum of 2 times, once each to attack, and then once or twice each to qualify for the extra attacks.

            Space marines would have a similar problem if we had a 4 armed captain with 4 lightning claws.

            While I agree that the wording could be clearer, you have to get pretty creative with your math to justify more than 1 extra attack.

          • Joshua Galvez

            Scything Talons and similar weapons (Chainsword, Choppa, etc.) Do NOT have the requirement that you must allocate attacks to that weapon in order for the rule to activate.

          • stinkoman

            since when can you use a rule in a weapon without using the weapon???? does this mean i can use the meltaguns rule for all my shooting attacks? WTF?

          • Nyyppä

            Since it says that simply having 2+ gives you the benefit.

          • GrenAcid

            You are dead wrong, you cant claim weapon bonus if you dont alocate Attack to this weapon, stop cheating.

          • Nyyppä

            Where exactly does it say so?

          • kobalt60

            The 3 pairs are accounted for in the base 6 attacks. The bonus is +1 attack, not +3. Don’t be that guy

          • Nyyppä

            Playing by the rules is being “that guy”? I’m asking because that’s your argument right now.

          • kobalt60

            You know exactly what I mean. Don’t be the disingenuous guy either

          • Nyyppä

            It’s a game, not an interview with someone who can just fire you out of spite. There is no reason to me disingenous.

          • rtheom

            The model has that rule, not the separate pairs of scything talons. The model has the attacks characteristic. Not the scything talons.

    • NagaBaboon

      The trouble with splitting attacks is it’s not the same as a gun, the base number of attacks comes from the model not the weapon, so either attacks should always be able to be split despite the weapon/s being used or they should never be. Anything else is just stepping into the swampy, convoluted rules quagmire of 7th ed.

    • Nyyppä

      1 for each. You get one for having a pair and you have 3 of those.

  • Randy Randalman

    It’s +1A. You’re only ever technically fighting with the first pair. Having more just gives you the bonus attack.

    Keep it mind, most Tyranid monsters also HAVE TO spend one attack on their profile for their tails.

    • BF82

      i would say you can choose which pair to attack with ergo the 3 extra attacks conundrum is pretty valid, the wargear specifically states 3 pairs so you could in theory choose which one just as any model with multiple melee weapons can choose

      • A.P.

        not really, reason being “if you have more than one pair you can make an extra attack with THIS weapon” not you can attack with each set of claws separately.

      • Heinz Fiction

        You don’t get an additional attack for fighting with scyting talons you get it for owning them.

      • AEZ

        You cannot choose.. there is only 1 weapon profile in it’s list.

        • Karru

          So I can only shoot with one Heavy Bolter on my Leman Russ even if I have Sponsons and the frontal one. Got it.

      • AircoolUK

        No it’s not, because if you choose one pair to make one attack, there’s no extra pairs in that attack to get the +1 bonus.

        Your number of attacks comes from your Attack stat, not the number of melee weapons you have.

        Give a standard Space Marine a Chainsword, he gets 2 attacks. Give him fifty Chainswords, he still gets 2 attacks, not fifty, or fifty one or one hundred or one hundred and one…

        Just two…

        • Joshua Galvez

          If you could somehow give the space marine 50 chainswords, he would get 1 attack to allocate to any of his 50 chainswords and then would get an additional attack with each chainsword for a total of 51 attacks. Hard to believe, maybe, but doesn’t stop it from being true: thank goodness no such options exist in the game.

  • Joel Fowler

    You buy them as one weapon for all six. Pretty sure the entry covers all of them.

    • Joshua Galvez

      This is the strongest argument for the +1 attack.

      • Astmeister

        No because you also buy other weapon pairs at once but get more than one. For example Devourers with Brainleech worms.

  • Rayna M. McCowan

    There isn’t an issue here, just like the predator, it says in the war gear it has three sets of massive scything talons, so it gets +1 attacks as it has 2 extra sets of scything talons, as it doesn’t say “one extra attack for each set of additional scything talons”. It is pretty simple.

  • Commissar Molotov

    Just +1 attack. Seems pretty straightforward.

  • Randy Randalman

    The Trygon is only chosen to FIGHT once. It can split up its attacks 60 ways, but it will only ever get +1A for having more than one pair. It triggers based on being chosen to fight in the FIGHT phase.

    If someone like Kharn, or a model with a triggered Soulburst action can be chosen to fight more than once, they would get +1A when chosen to fight again.

    • Joshua Galvez

      There are some interesting assumptions here.
      Here’s how my group plays it:

      Firstly, you don’t have to select the talons at all when distributing your attacks and you will still get the +1 bonus attack with each set of scything talons, this is true for other weapons in other indices as well (chainsword, choppa, etc.) Essentially you are guaranteed one attack with each of the weapons in addition to the attacks you would otherwise have made.

      I’m a daemons player so here’s the DP example with the Warp Talons: I modeled my DP with a sword and he comes with one set of talons. He has 4 attacks on his profile which I can distribute when he fights. Let’s say I put them all on the sword. In addition, I get 1 free bonus attack with the talons for a total of 5 attacks. (4 with the sword and one bonus talons attack).

      Following this logic, your Trygon has 6 attacks to distribute as you wish, and the the Trygon will get 1 bonus attack for each set of Scything Talons for a total of 9 attacks.

      • AEZ

        No. He has 6 attacks. He has 1 weapon profile. Nothing to pick. The rule he has is ACTUALLY there since other people with 2 handweapons might get extra attacks for their (different) additional handweapon since it has a different weapon profile and then you can divide attacks. THIS guy how ever only has 1 weapon profile and a rule which allows you to get 1 extra attack to simulate the extra weapon rule others get. (it would’ve been easier just to add 1 to it’s A profile if it didn’t have other melee options …)

  • Heinz Fiction

    To me it is 110% clear that you only get one additional attack each turn, no matter how many additional pairs of scyting talons you own. It also doesn’t matter which pair the bearer chooses to fight with. He could use his tail weapon and would still get that bonus attack (which he would have to do with his talons though).

    However I’m not a native speaker and maybe I’m missing some nuances there…

    • orionburn

      You’re correct in how the rule is written. It can be interpreted different ways, but I agree with how you read it. If you have 6 base attacks and one has to be from the tail, then you get still get 6 attacks with the talons because of the +1.

      It is something that will have to be clarified in a FAQ because people will try to abuse this.

  • Matt Halkos

    It’s only +1A. If it wasn’t then it would have been worded just like the dreadklaw on deff dreads. “Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with each dread klaw it is equipped with.”

  • plainoldandrew

    +1 Attack.

    It’s each time you fight, not each time you attack.

  • Jeffrey Rodriguez

    +3 Total. “each time you fight WITH THIS WEAPON” There are three of them. 3 x +1 = +3. Simple math, right?

    • Mr.Custodes

      Fighting is activating in combat. You’re thinking of attacking with the weapon.

      • Joshua Galvez

        “Each time it fights” means that upon activating the Trygon to fight, you apply the weapons ability granting one extra attack with the Scything Talons. He has 3 pairs so he applies the bonus 3 times, once for each pair, for a total of 3 extra Scything Talons attacks each time it fights.

    • AEZ

      No only 1 weapon profile.

      • Michael Cameron

        I disagree because what if a model has two Chainswords? It would get +2 attacks. 1 profile doesnt account for number of actual weapons on the model. As someone else said before what a model with 2 or more Lascannons? Its listed once but can all of them. It says each time it fights make the extra attack with this weapon (Talons), it has three of them hence three weapon bonuses.

        • rtheom

          Ranged weapons have an attack value based on their weapon type or listed under the type. Melee weapons do not. Melee weapons use the attacks value of the model.

      • Horus84cmd

        I feel it’s +1 but being one weapon profile has nothing to do with it

    • R Todd Roy

      Nope, not “with this weapon”, just “each time it fights”. The Trygon Prime can make four attacks with its rattle, one with the toxin spike and one with its tail and still get a seventh attack (the +1) with the scything talon profile.

    • AircoolUK

      Right, so my Space Marine with 50 Chainswords gets 51 attacks?

      Or is it 52? Or 100, or 101, 102?

      Nope, wait, it’s still two.

      • Karru

        Well, I mean, if you show me a Space Marine that can have 50 Chainswords, then yes, that Space Marine would get 51 attacks.

        • AircoolUK

          Except that it wouldn’t. Since when have close combat attacks been based on the number of weapons a model carries?

          • Karru

            Since never in 8th, but as the “Choose Melee Weapon” part of the rulebook states:

            “If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between weapons however you wish”

            Chainsword ruling:

            “Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon.”

            If the model has one Chainsword, it gets 1 attack. If the model has two chainswords, it get +1 attack for each Chainsword because of the extra ruling.

            Let’s use another weapon as an example so it makes things clearer for you. Power Maul has no extra rules. When you fight with Power Maul, you get the amount of attacks you have for that model’s attack characteristic shows. If you have two, you get the amount of attacks you have for that model’s attack characteristic shows.

        • rtheom

          I would say he gets that just on principal for making a marine with 50 chainswords, even though the rules don’t allow it.

      • Joshua Galvez

        A space marine with 2 chainswords gets 3 attacks.

      • rtheom

        I want to see that model.

    • Darkjedi

      It’s only 1 extra attack. The reason the rule says “…each time you fight WITH THIS WEAPON…” is to specify the extra attack can’t be done with the tail.

  • Ceekh

    Very simple, re-read the rules : first, you choose your weapon, then your target. So here, you choose to fight with your 3 Massive Scything Talons, you’ve got more than 1 of it equipped, so you get an extra Attack, putting you at a total of 7 Attacks (6 base + 1 bonus). You now have 7 Attacks to divide as you wish amongst your targets.

    Plus, this kind of ambiguity is quickly resolved if you look at other weapons. For example, the DE Talos’ Macro Scalpel rule states “A model armed with a Macro Scalpel can make one additionnal close combat attack with it each time it fights. A model armed with two Macro Scalpels can make two additionnal close combat attacks with them each time it fights.” If you get more than 1 extra Attack, it says so ^^

    • Johan Pilestedt

      No, it’s not as simple as you think. Everytime you fight with THAT weapon, you get +1 attack. This rule does however apply to all scything talon pairs, and based on the ruling in the, well, rulebook you can allocate attacks to each weapon. Meaning that a +X bonus per scything talon applies unless you have fewer than 2.

      • R Todd Roy

        Most models fight once per fight phase (there are some that get to fight a second time, like Berserkers). And it’s not “when you fight with this weapon”. The Trygon Prime can allocate all 6 of it’s attacks to the Biostatic Rattle and it will still get +1 attack with the Massive Scything Talons, by virtue of having more than one pair.

        • Karru

          At that point you are using only one of your weapons. If you choose to use ALL of the Talons, you are getting +1 attack each as the rule activates 3 times.

          It specifically states it has 3 pairs of them, not one “bundle” as people seem to interpret it as

          • R Todd Roy

            Yes, 3 pairs. 3 pairs is more than one pair, thus +1 attack. If it has a billion pairs of massive scything talons, that’s still +1 attack, because a billion is more than one. Basically, you get the +1 attack because you’re fighting and *armed* with massive scything talons, not because you choose to allocate attacks to them. In order of operations, you’re effectively gaining the +1 attack before you even allocate attacks to weapons.

          • Karru

            Okay, so you agree that if a Leman Russ has 3 Heavy Bolters, it can only attack with one of them, yes?

          • R Todd Roy

            No, of course not. During the shooting phase, a model may attack with every ranged weapon it has (ignoring the pistols vs non pistols choice). Ranged weapons have the number of attacks allocated to the weapon, not to the model. During the fight phase, however, number of attacks is determined by the model, with some weapons providing bonus attacks (usually with limitations, like “with this profile”). You understand that the shooting phase and the fight phase have different rules, yes?

          • Karru

            Indeed they do good sir. Now go take a look at the Choose Ranged Weapon and the Choose Melee Weapon sections of the book.

            To give you a short summary:

            “If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target”

            “If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish”

            Notice one word that is missing from both rules. One 9 letter word. A word that doesn’t seem to bother one but bothers the other. That word is:

            “Different”

            Nowhere, absolutely nowhere does it state that it doesn’t have nor doesn’t get to use ALL of its close combat weapons, including “copies” of the first one. So in this case, the Trygon Prime has 3 Pairs of Scything Talons. It has all 3 of them at all times, INCLUDING when it fights. The Scything Talons state that it gets +1 attack if it has more than one pair of them. If it has two pairs of them, meaning it gets +2 attacks because they both have separate entries. It doesn’t state that it doesn’t stack.

          • R Todd Roy

            What is the points cost for the three pairs of massive scything talons on the Trygon Prime?

          • Karru

            What does that have to do with it? It is 60pts. If you are implying that since it is purchased as one “bundle” of sorts which leads to it being one entry, the weapon entry is “Massive Scything Talons” not “Pair of Massive Scything Talons” or “Set of Massive Scything Talons”.

            You buy them as once bundle, but it becomes three entries. Either that or there it doesn’t even have those as there is no weapon entry in game called “Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs)” only “Massive Scything Talons”.

          • Joshua Galvez

            I can see the bundle argument, but I am still inclined to agree with Karru here. However, I would also then argue it gets +3 attacks not +2.

          • Karru

            I was stating that it if the dude had two sets of them, it would have +2. Trygon Prime gets +3 as it has three sets.

          • Joshua Galvez

            Got it. Agree.

          • Heinz Fiction

            “It doesn’t state that it doesn’t stack.”

            It doesn’t suggest it either. if you have 3 official documents proving that you’re 18 years of age doesn’t make you 54 years of age…

          • Nyyppä

            It explicitly says that you get an attack with that pair of talons if there are 2 or more pairs. You have that pair 3 times. How does that no grant more than one bonus attack?

          • Michael Cameron

            In CC you can attack with all of your CC weapons. If a model has two Chainswords it could attack with both and get +1 atrack for each of them. The profile is listed once but it has three pairs of Talons so +3 atracks.

          • AircoolUK

            Well, you can’t attack with any of them in close combat… I think that’s where you’re getting confused.

          • Karru

            Apologies, I should have said “Shoot” instead of attack to make it more clear.

            But I take it you agree that you can only shoot one Heavy Bolter even if you have three because they only have one entry and not three, yes?

          • AircoolUK

            If that were the case, then by your logic, you’ll also be able to use any upgrade weapons as well, just because they’re written in the profile.

            A ranged weapon has an attack stat for shooting. The model has an attack stat for close combat. That kinda makes it obvious how many attacks you have.

            In this example, the model has six attacks, but because it has three pairs of scything talons, it qualifies for an extra attack.

            I’m actually confused as to how people are getting this wrong and coming up with three extra attacks 🙂

          • Karru

            I would like for you to explain your logic behind the Scything Talon conundrum before I continue the argument as you haven’t so far given me anything that would discredit my argument while you have been giving me the same argument over and over which I already shot down.

          • Horus84cmd

            Shooting argument down and shouting it down are the same thing…

          • Karru

            I am not shouting down an argument. I am giving valid arguments backed by facts taken from the rulebook. Meanwhile you and AircoolUK are just repeating the same line over and over again with nothing new added at any point.

          • Horus84cmd

            Ooo Touchy. You’re not providing any more ‘fact’ except for your interpretation of the wording. Which is not fact. just misinterpreted interpretation. Which is what the majority of posters is doing in this thread. People are picking use of the english language thats wrong in an effort to convince people they are right.

          • Karru

            Okay, let me ask you a question then.

            Why does Ranged Weapons get counted as separate entries but Melee weapons do not. Explain.

          • Horus84cmd

            It not about being classed as separate or individual entries. Its the way the unit description is listed and the for Match Play games the way you pay for them. You pay points for talons all at once. Melee weapons points in the index states:
            “Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime) – 60ps

            The use of “two or more pairs” deliberate in order to stop the shenanigans the many are arguing. With things like a Land Raiders Twin-Linked Lascannons you pay for each pair at 50pts a pop. So they’re individual weapons to fire.

          • Karru

            Maybe, but at the same time they state that it has Three pairs of them and nothing, absolutely nothing, in its rulesheet or anywhere else that states it is counted as only one weapon. It is three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. Each Massive Scything Talon has its own entry. If it was one entry, it should be stated as such. Currently you are ASSUMING that it is counted as one because of it being bought as one item in the Point list.

            I have yet to find 0 evidence that would confirm either side of the argument, but I have found more evidence that supports my side of it. You say I “twist” the english language to my advantage here and “misinterpret” the rule on purpose, but what you don’t seem to realise is that I have yet to find one actual sentence that would say it doesn’t work that way.

            Please show me the sentence in the rulebook that states what you said to be a fact. You say that since it is purchased as a “bundle” of one purchase for the three sets, it is counted as one entry/weapon for the purpose of the extra attack rule, or did I misunderstand you?

          • Horus84cmd

            Great then. I’ll convert convert my Trygon to be modeled with 10 pairs of Monstrous scything Talons. There’s nothing in the datesheet that says I can’t and I get the whole lot for 60pts. They’re physically represented so I’ll take the extra 10 attacks.

            This because something is not explicitly stated by a single sentence does not mean it does not exist. You have to take the rules as a whole.

          • Karru

            Sure thing, you do that. Unfortunately the datasheet indicates the amount it has, which is three, so it doesn’t matter how many you say it has or model into it, it still only has three sets of them.

            “Just because something is not explicitly stated by a single sentence does not mean it does not exist. You have to take the rules as a whole to create context. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”

            But you have two almost identical wordings (only difference is that other says melee weapons and the other says ranged) and coming up with two different ways on how to use it.

            Like I stated a good while back, Choose Ranged Weapon and Choose Melee Weapon are almost identical. The rule does not state weapons that are identical on one model are not different weapons. They exist on the model just like a Heavy Bolter would on a Leman Russ. You can’t say “even if the datasheet says it has three of them that it only has one of them” and then go “it says it has three, so you can use all of them”. This is what you are saying when it comes to the question why I can fire three Heavy Bolters on a Leman Russ, but I don’t have three sets of Massive Scything Talons to use.

          • Horus84cmd

            I’m not (or ever) argued it has “one set of talons”. The entry says it has three, the model has three. HOWEVER, when you pay points for them you don’t pay for three individual see you pay them as a whole “two or more” for the 60pts.

            UNLIKE, pretty much (if not all), other weapons in the game are purchased i.e. individually. That 60pts, for the Talons, is inclusive, and you could buy a 1000’s scything talons for it; but it would ridiculous to claim that it gets 1000 extra attacks, just because a unit datasheet says it has 1000 sets or the model physically has a 1000 sets

            It is obstinance, belligerence and obnoxious to ignore this just because it, as you put earlier, “shoots” down your position.

          • Nyyppä

            Predator sponsons….or any other sponsons for that matter. Just saying.

          • Horus84cmd

            What are you on about? Are you saying that you can purchase sponsons as pairs?

            A predators basic description is:
            “A Predator is a single model equipped with a Predator Autocannon”

            Its wargear options go on to state:
            “This model may take two Heavy Bolters or two Lascannons.”

            In the Armoury list there is no points listing for two H/Bolter or two Lascannons. They are only list a individual weapons at 10 and 25pts respectively. You don’t pay 10/25pts and magically get two you have to pay for both. So two of each weapons cost 20pts and 50pts.

          • Nyyppä

            True. Now, those sponsons being HBs in this context would still both fire, right? Or do you just get to fire one even though you pay for 2?

          • Horus84cmd

            I’m not sure what you’re asking here. You pay for two individual HB/LC so you can shoot booth; strictly speaking you don’t get a choice of the number, the entry doesn’t phrase it as “up to two.., it two of each weapon or none.

            Now with the Talons entry

          • Nyyppä

            Still, they are individual pairs of talons.

            To make this simple I’ll yield to your opinion if you can point out a weapon profile for 2+ pairs of talons. All I could find was the rules for a single pair. If you can’t do this and still claim that the 2+ pairs of talons are a single weapon you have got to admit that you are being intellectually dishonest.

          • Horus84cmd

            The crux is the way you pay for said weapon, not to whether a pair of weapons have a different profile to a single one. Why do you think twin linked weapons have a separate profile and separate point costings?

            Take lighting claws their points entry is pointed written to cover the cost of buying one or two:

            “Lighting Claws (single/pair) = 9/13”

            The Talons entry is not like this, as I’ve describe. By the logic you’re applying you’re saying I can use each Lightning Claw individually. So are you really, saying I could.have a SM-Captain with 4 attacks use his left one with 2A and then the right one separately – thus generating and additional +2A? Or a Grey Knight Justicar with Falcions, who has 2A could use his left and right one independently to gain +2A rather than +1? Because thats what would be allowed through that line of thinking.

          • Nyyppä

            So, in your head 2 weapons are a different thing than 2 weapons? This is what you are arguing now. The name or the weapon profile means nothing here. The question is that can you or can you not use all of the weapons available to you? Yous or no.

          • Nyyppä

            Is modeling for advantage still a bad thing?

          • Horus84cmd

            Ha Ha. I plan on modelling my armies always behind scenery. Nothing in the rules saying I can’t…

          • Nyyppä

            True, though terrain and basing are not the same thing. There are no rules for terrain that moves other than for Tau.

          • Horus84cmd

            Ha yeah. Next then is to model the whole army crouching/prone. Since the rules use true line of sight….

          • Nyyppä

            Do that. Who is stopping you?

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Especially the people trying to compare units that buy their weapons individually to a unit that is buying the weapon in question as a set of weapons.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            You paid for each one separately, which you cannot say about Trygon MSTs, unless you truly believe that a vanilla Trygon Prime is worth 322 points.

          • rtheom

            The heavy bolters have their own attack value included in the weapon type. Melee weapons do not have an attack value. The use the attack value of the model.

          • Karru

            Indeed they do, but why do you get to shoot with three heavy bolters on the same model, but if the same model has more than one melee weapon, I am only allowed to use one even if I have the attacks to use it and even if the rulebook states I can, just like it says with the Ranged Weapons.

          • Nyyppä

            “…with this weapon” 3 times. It’s not +1.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          But you can’t have both of those tail weapons.

  • SavgeChamp

    The weapon is called Massive Scything Talons, not three pairs of massive Scything Talons in the weapon description. So therefore teach set of Scything Talons separately qayulifies as the weapon giving the effect of Massive Scything Talons. The rule clearly states if you have more than Scything Talons than the singular Massive Scything Talon gives you an extra attack once per fight. So have three singulars Massive Scything Talons once per fight they each generate an extra attack so 9 attacks three of which must be the xtra attacks generated from each set of Massive Scything Talons. That is how it is written.

  • Lysander

    Its actually a legitimate question based on some key wording. The trygon has 6 attacks. Its has 3 sets of talons, and a tail weapon. it must allocate one attack to the tail weapon so that leaves 5.

    If I then allocate 2 attacks to the first set of talons, 2 attacks to the second set and 1 attack to the third set then I’ve split my attacks so as to make use of each weapons special rules as I am allowed to do.

    This means that for the first set as I have more than 1 set of talons the extra attack requirement has been met. Meaning I get 3 attacks with the first set, and the requirement is met for the second and third sets.

    Meaning i end up with 1 tail attack, 3 attacks with the first set, 3 with the second set, and 2 with the third set. So effectively +3 attacks.

    I dont think that is how it is intended, but its how its written across the multiple rules.

    • Joshua Galvez

      You’re right. Also, there is no stipulation that you must attack with the weapon to receive the bonus attacks, see my DP example above.

      • GrenAcid

        Sory but that is just sily. CHAINweapon have difrent wording and you get an attack for having them but you have to use weapon to recive bonus.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          Pretty confident that weapon-granted bonus attacks have to be made with the weapons that grant them.

    • AEZ

      Nothing to allocate.. only 1 weapon profile.

      • Sergio Celi

        Again, Crisis suits have one weapon profile (Burst Cannon) for shooting, but they can equip 3 of them (If you want). Do you mean you can’t attack with all of them because there is only one profile of that weapon? Does anywere on the 8th edition book say shooting attacks (using multiple weapons) is different from close combat? Just wondering. (Because It says that you can divide all your attacks as you see fit if the mini is equipped with different melee weapons)

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          Suit Weapons are never bought as sets, your position is flawed.

          • Sergio Celi

            It is not. It’s the same. It’s like using a Coldstar suit which includes 2 weapons already. The Trygon is equiped with, and quoting: “3 pairs of Massive Scything Talons” 3. Not 1 bunch of 3 Massive Scything Talons. 3. Other monsters have one pair. Or two pairs

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            No, it isn’t, because you pay for the Coldstar’s weapons piecemeal, while the Trygon’s MSTs are bought as a single item, for a single cost.

          • Sergio Celi

            No, they aren’t, they are included in the model as 3 Pair of MST. Nowhere says there is a profile for “3 Pair of MST”. Only one for the MST. If a, let’s say, unit of SM had 3 Chainswords in their profile and with a 3A value, like a Hero called > Zoro the SpaceFox he has 3 Chainswords. Don’t you think he would have 3 extra attacks due to the Chainsword special rules?

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Well, duh, because Chainswords don’t care how many your equipped with. http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bc7463c80af5f52157941f1c2e2e008ce3f961abb9fe8232f39f0e314fc62e23.jpg
            Note that there are 2 point costs for Massive Scything Talons, one for single sets, and one for multiple sets. Trygons, like all generic models (save Daemons other than Daemon Princes), do not have their wargear included in their base cost. http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7e76905ed1dd92d70dcd2d1451b7c00650be22915e2d7480485bae019d133933.jpg http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7a7bbb291ab5ff396055a3aa6dba44345de8862c7db492207a1978a195871094.jpg

          • Sergio Celi

            I have the Index too, thanks. But, If you notice, each monster has different values (ST). Back in the 3rd edition, each weapon was different for each MC (due to their different strenghts) in points. This is why they did it, since Talons don’t modify their strength but each creature is different in size and strenght. Again. The Profile is for ONE pair of MST. not a bunch, while the value points for various sets, since you cant’ put only 2 pairs on a Trygon. But, a Hive Tyrant can have 2 pairs, since the original 1 is included by default. Same with the Carnifex.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      It does not have to fight with the tail weapon, and 2 out of 3 tail weapons available to that unit can only be used to attack once, if at all.

      • Dylan Pettersson

        So? It says 3 pairs of massive scything talons in it’s profile. Ergo, 3 weapons you can choose from

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          And the bonus is contingent on having “2 or more.” Not each additional, “2 or More.” It’s obvious, that they only want you to get 1 extra attack.

  • DaveWeston

    Only with nids do you get this sort of polarisation of the community. Totally convinced its X versus totally convinced its Y while the odd one or two say it’s Z 😂

    Glad to see they’ve retained some ambiguity, whichever way you want to scythe your talons! HA, HA!

  • R Todd Roy

    “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.”

    • Lysander

      the issue is that the rule is at weapon level where it has 3, not at model level, where if it was then i’d agree with you. I think its one for the FAQ to clarify

      • R Todd Roy

        The rule is on the weapon, but the qualifier is pretty clear: “does the model have more than one pair?” Yes? +1 attack. No? no bonus attack.

        • Joshua Galvez

          The problem is whether the rule activates once per pair or once total.
          First pair of scything talons. Got more than 1 pair? Yes. +1 attack.
          Second pair of Scything Talons has the same profile. Got more than 1 pair? Yes. Another +1 attack
          Third pair of scything talons has the same profile. Got more than 1 pair? Yes. Another +1 attack.

          +3 attacks in total.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Once, because the 3 sets comprise a single piece of wargear, both from a weapon profile perspective and from a point cost breakdown perspective.

          • Nyyppä

            Actually no. Each pair is a separate weapon.

  • mgdavey

    But the weapon isn’t listed as “Pair of Massive Scything Talons” it’s simply “Massive Scything Talons”. The idea that you can make a separate attack with each pair with a bonus makes as much sense as being able to make a separate attack with each talon from the pair.

    • Joshua Galvez

      You’ve hit the heart of it. Page 139 of the Index: Xenos 2 supports your argument as well. That doesn’t mean that other points here are invalid. This still deserves an FAQ.

  • Horus84cmd

    THIS is NOT AN ISSUE! It’s another example of people not reading things correctly. The Scything Talon entry uses the ‘ Each time it Fights’ NOT ‘attacks’. So it is +1 for that fight it is in. Your making a mistake a literally step one of the combat phase:

    “1.Choose unit to fight with ”

    You choose a unit to FIGHT with and that unit then ATTACKS

    “4.Choose melee weapon
    5.Resolve close combat attacks”

    • TheFunnySide

      To be clear, from what you wrote i can not take away on what side you are standing. Which means it is an issue.

      • Horus84cmd

        As Mr T say. Learn to read! LITERALLY in my post I typed:

        “So it is +1 for that fight it is in”

    • Karru

      The problem isn’t that. If the problem was that it was getting +1 each time it attacked, it would be getting 6 extra attacks instead.

      The 3+ Attacks come from the fact that it has three sets of them. This would indicate that you have the same rule coming up three times for that model. I can pick my Melee Weapon freely. I can choose Talon 1, for say 2 attacks, then Talon 2 for 2 attacks and Talon 3 for 2 attacks. That way all of their rules activate as they are still separate entries, thus giving me 3+ attack.

      Those that try to argue with the “it doesn’t have multiple entries for the weapon” (*cough* AEZ *cough*) have to either pick one of the two options. Find a better argument or accept the fact that in this case you shouldn’t be able to fire weapons such as the Heavy Bolter on a Leman Russ with full sponsons once as it has only one entry, even if the rules state it has three of them at that point.

      • Horus84cmd

        The Tyrgon does not FIGHT three times it FIGHTS once in the combat phase (unless affected by some kind ability that allow it to fight again in the same phase). It may well attack we three set but not FIGHTS. People are using both the words ‘fight’ and ‘attack’ to mean the same thing – which in the contexts of the rules they don’t.

        • Karru

          I am also using the word FIGHT here as I explained in my first paragraph.

          “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.”

          You have three pairs of them. You have that rule three times. You get +1 attack each time you FIGHT with that weapon. Thus you get +3 attacks.

          To explain this ONE MORE TIME:

          If the case was “each time this model attacks” it would get 6 attacks. This is not what people are arguing, at least I am not. You have three sets of them, thus the rule activates three times as the Trygon Prime FIGHTS only once during the Fight phase so the rule is activated once for EACH weapon with the said rule.

          • Horus84cmd

            It can attack with all three pairs BUT the Trygon is still only fighting once and so only gets +1 attack. The shooting phase is very much a difference kettle of fish.

          • Karru

            Yes, and? I never argued that it got to fight more than once. All I stated was that since it has three entries for Scything Talons, thus the rule appears three times as all those entries are unique and the rule does not state it doesn’t stack, it gets activated three times because the Trygon fights once.

            If it counted each time it attacked, Trygon would get +6 attacks.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            But it’s only one entry, and only purchased as a single piece of wargear.

          • Karru

            A teensy weensy problem with you argument.

            If you say that it is bought as one “bundle” which is called “Monstrous Scything Talons (Two pairs or more)”, how do you know how many you have of them total or in general?

            Simple, you use your eyes and see that the datasheet clearly indicates it has three. Three sets of Massive Scything Talons. ONE. TWO. THREEEEEEEE. AH AH AH AHHHHH.

            If you are in fact saying that it is counted as one weapon, then it doesn’t even get the bonus attack as the sheet clearly indicates it only has the Massive Scything Talon and not “Monstrous Scything Talons (Two pairs or more)” as the Melee Weapons list indicates.

            So you have two options:

            First one: The Trygon gets no bonus attack as you purchase a bundle of one weapon which is turned into a single Massive Scything Talon as there is no such entry as “Monstrous Scything Talons (Two pairs or more)”, because in order to achieve this you have to ignore the number of Scything Talons indicated in the Datasheet.

            Second one: You count the number of Massive Scything Talons indicated in the Datasheet and then realise that the rulebook never states that even if they are the same weapon, they aren’t counted as separate entries and finally you understand why the Trygon gets +3 attacks instead of +1.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            It says in the special rules for MSTs that if the model has more than one set, it gains an extra attack, not an extra attack for each one, the way Chainswords do. Once again, your lack of reading comprehension is tedious, but if you must insist on this ridiculous rules interpretation of yours, I’ll let you, on the condition that you pay for the extra attacks piecemeal. http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/89c5c93233641e222444258ea8b3f451e83fe52fe323c25042c2513d1eafe4e2.png

          • Karru

            So you are saying it only has one entry then thus it only has one “set” of Talons, yes?

            Let me try to explain this one more time. The entire “+3 attacks bonus” comes from the fact that all three pairs are counted as separate entries as is stated in the datasheet and the main rulebook. This means that ALL of them have the same rule which is triggered once for each pair because they are three different entries and it doesn’t say that they don’t stack.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            No, I’m saying that the special rule only triggers once because it doesn’t care about the number of sets there are on the model beyond there being more than one.

          • Karru

            But why? If it has multiple instances of the same rule that doesn’t state they do not stack, then why does it gets only +1 attack?

            What about the Captain with 2 Chainswords. Both Chainswords have the rule that gives the user +1 attack with that weapon each time it fights. Does that mean it only gets +1 attack or +2 attacks? If yes, why?

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            +1 attack, because he, baring a rule that lets him fight an additional time, only fights once.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            A does not lead to B. I’m saying that the exact number of Talons does not matter, because no matter how many sets the model has, they will only ever get 1 additional attack.

          • Karru

            Yes, when striking with that weapon, just like the rule states. You have three of them, so the rule appears three times, thus it gets activated three times.

            Think of it like this:

            Talon Pair 1: Do you have more than one pair of Talons on the model? Yes. +1 Attack.

            Talon Pair 2: Do you have more than one pair of Talons on the model? Yes. +1 Attack.

            Talon Pair 3: Do you have more than one pair of Talons on the model? Yes. +1 Attack.

            The singular weapon doesn’t get +3 attack. Each weapon gets +1 attack because they all fulfil the requirement and gets activated.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            It does not say “Striking,” it says when the model “Fights.”

          • Karru

            Apologies for using the wrong word, but my argument still stands.

            You get +1 attack each time the model fights WITH THAT WEAPON. Each Pair of Talons is a unique entry, just like the Heavy Bolters on a Leman Russ.

          • Horus84cmd

            Again confusing the use of the phrase “fights” and “attacks”. For rules purposes they refer to different stages of the Fight Phase. They phrases aren’t used synonymously; the mean entirely different things in this context.

          • Karru

            It is clear that this argument isn’t going anywhere. I have messaged GW and the answer was “A good question. We will pass that on to the studio as a lot of people have asked. It’s on our list of FAQs to be looked at.”

            So I shall leave the discussion at that. There is no point arguing as neither side is going to back down. I shall wait for the official word.

          • Horus84cmd

            Doesn’t make your position any less incorrect. Have some courage in your conviction son.

          • Karru

            That is just your opinion. I have better chances of convincing a rock that pigs can fly than you about this because no matter how many official rules I throw your way and no matter how many correct interpretations I give you, you still ignore it all saying your one repeated line which doesn’t in any way invalidate my argument.

          • Horus84cmd
          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            I seriously think that you’re reading this rule the wrong way, because you are not buying each set of Talons individually, unlike your Heavy Bolter example.

          • Karru

            As I said to Horus84cmd, it is clear that this argument isn’t going anywhere. I have messaged GW and the answer was “A good question. We will pass that on to the studio as a lot of people have asked. It’s on our list of FAQs to be looked at.”

            So I shall leave the discussion at that. There is no point arguing as neither side is going to back down. I shall wait for the official word.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Page reference for that “count as 3 ENTRIES” passage, ’cause I’m pretty sure you pulled that from thin air.

          • Karru

            Page 183 in the Main Rulebook

            Choose Melee Weapon

            Each time a model makes a close combat attack it uses a melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with are described on its datasheet…

            …If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish.

            Page 179 in the Main Rulebook

            Choose Ranged Weapon

            The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit.

            ———————————————-

            Both have the exact same wording when it comes to the amount of weapons one can use. If you accept that a Leman Russ with three Heavy Bolters is able to fire all three, then you have to accept that a Trygon with three pairs of Massive Scything Talons also has three entries for them.

            Your Ranged Weapons don’t start to “stack”. Three Heavy Bolters doesn’t become Heavy 9, it is 3 Heavy 3 Weapons you are using.

            Now I would like you to show me the passage which states that if the weapon is purchased as a “bundle”, it is counted as only one entry.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            The description is on the Trygon Datasheet once, just like every other unit that is capable of taking multiples of a given weapon. If it truly worked as you say it does, then why bother placing that clause that checks the quantity?

          • eMtoN

            “No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. ”

            Per the rules, the Trygon only get’s to Fight once each fight phase.

            You only get +1 attack because you’re only allowed to add 1 attack each time you Fight. Which is ONCE per fight phase regardless of how you split up the attacks amongst the weapons.

  • Davis Centis

    I’ve been playing it as +3. It’s three weapons that each state you get an extra attack. If you had three bolters with the same rule “if you have more than 1 bolter you make one additional shot with this bolter”, then everyone would say you have 3 extra shots because each bolter would have that rule, and each bolter is shooting.

    I never even heard of the +6 attacks until someone in these comments mentioned that you could have 1 extra attack per Scything Talon, rather than pair of scything talons, but that doesn’t sound like the right thing to me because they’ve never worked like that before.

  • Nathaniel Wright

    I think the wording might have more to do with the fact that Massive Scything Talons are also on Carnifexes.

    Which can replace their talons for other options.

  • AircoolUK

    It has more than one pair, so +1 attack. It could have a million pairs, but the rule is ‘for more than one pair’, so it would still be +1 attack.

    It would have been a bit silly to have given the unit a pair of scything talons, or two pairs of scything talons because it obviously has three.

    Perhaps there’ll be slightly different rules when the Codex arrives.

    The only way you could possibly cheese it is if you attack one model with two pairs of scything talons gaining +1 attack, and then attack another model with the remaining pair of scything talons, for which you get no extra attack. So basically, that get’s you the same result.

    I’m constantly amazed at people’s ability to think outside the wrong box.

  • Lee Bleeker

    I believe it is +3 attacks. Because the +1 is triggered each time a weapon is chosen. each individual set of talons carry this rule. so each set adds the +1 attack.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      A single set doesn’t grant an extra attack, sorry. And the 3 sets together comprise a single piece of wargear.

      • NilOmniscient

        So, what about regular scything talons? Exact same wording, purchased individually, and Raveners have 3 pairs of them.

        Edit: Typo. Meant 2, not 3. Blegh. Still, would each pair trigger in that case? They aren’t bought as a set, they’re individual wargear.

        • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

          No, they’d only get the 1 extra attack.

  • Seismic Ghost

    Just throwing my cents in.
    If you only get +1A total, why would it have three pairs instead of two? The third set would do literally nothing ever. It would be exactly the same as having 2 pairs if I’m not mistaken.

    • Heinz Fiction

      Because the model happens to have 3 pairs of arms. There is really no conspiracy behind it.

    • Horus84cmd

      Unless, of course there are future effects that allow your opponent to disable/destroy weapons. 😉

  • AircoolUK

    Don’t be so dense. Your number of attacks come from your Attack stat, not the number of weapons you are armed with.

    In this case, you have six attacks, plus one extra attack if you use your PAIRS of scything talons.

    • Joshua Galvez

      Your space marine example is correct. If that space marine then also had a chainsword, he would get one attack to distribute between his power sword, power fist, and chainsword and he would also get an additional attack with his chainsword (regardless of the weapon he chose to fight with with his first attack).

  • Calgar

    You guys are reaching for controveries here. +1 attack…. next question

    • AircoolUK

      But worth reading the comments for the horrendous logic 🙂

      • Karru

        I agree, yours are the best ones!

  • Spacefrisian

    Not an issue stick to 1 extra attack till the actual dex is released, than we talk again.

    • Joshua Galvez

      Or, “Not an issue stick to [3 extra attacks] till the actual dex is released, than we talk again.”
      You’re ruling is not the default ruling and neither is mine. Furthermore, the discussion has brought up other interesting issues, which makes the discussion valuable.

      • Spacefrisian

        So far anyone disagree with me was wrong in the long run.

  • stinkoman

    do you pay for each one separately, or all at once? if all at once, i would have to say just +1. as then it would be considered, IMO, one weapon. like a twin lascanon.

    • Horus84cmd

      You pay for all at once. Melee weapons points in the index states:

      “Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime) – 60ps

      The use of “two or more pairs” seems very deliberate to me; in order to stop the shenanigans the many are arguing.

      • NilOmniscient

        So what about regular scything talons? They have the exact same wording, but are purchased separately.

        • Horus84cmd

          I far as I have read/seen any Nid unit that can swap a weapons for Scything Talons only ever ends up with them being the only weapons they have or remaining with a single pair. So for a model with two pairs it never comes up, all the models attacks will always be made with its Scything Talons they don’t have any others to use; which means the rule is applied as I described.

  • Wolf-Assassin

    +1A. You have never in any edition goten anything else as far as i know.

    • Horus84cmd

      You have to ignore all other editions, best way to play 8th – however still only +1A.

  • Bigwebb

    Nope its one attack total two or more pairs of massive talons are one weapon that costs 60 points page 139 index xenos 2. More than one massive talon is a single weapon.

  • Shawn

    (Massive/Monstrous/Regular) Scything Talons:
    “You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.”

    Hmmm, let me see. Since it has 2 additional pairs it gets +2 attacks, giving it 8 attacks total which can’t be split up because yeah, they’re used in melee. All attacks would have to go against the same unit in close combat.

    edit: Correction, +1 attack for a total of 7 attacks. Thanks for catching that AEZ.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    1 extra attack.

    Side note: Biostatic Rattle is the best tail weapon of the 3, because it has actual AP, hits at Strength 7, hoses Leadership, and you can attack with it as often as you like (up to 6 times) without overriding the Massive Scything Talon rules.

  • GAZNZ

    U get 8 attacks
    Its quite simple

  • Bran D

    Pretty obvious that no matter how many you have, you only get 1 extra attack.

  • SprinkKnoT

    RAW – +3 attacks
    RAI – +1 attacks

    I think it’s pretty clear based on lighting talons that the intent is you only get 1 extra attack, but unfortunately we live in an imperfect world where mistakes make it to print.

  • Glaucs

    For me RAI would be +1 attacks as that is how my mind parsed the sentence the first time I read it. That’s an interpretation though; I can see how someone else would interpret it to be +2 or +3 attacks.

    That being said, due to what seems to be a copy and paste error, RAW it would be +0 attacks for the following reasons:

    1) The relevant part of the rule reads: “If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.”
    2) The weapon is called “Massive scything talons”
    3) The text of the rule refers to “scything talons”
    4) “Massive scything talons” =/= “scything talons”; it’s not the same name being used and, in fact, there is another different weapon called a scything talon. If the Trygon Prime had any “scything talons” then he would get extra attacks with those but since he has “Massive scything talons” and not “scything talons” he gets 0 extra attacks because the rule only applies to “scything talons”.

    Now someone might say: “Well Massive scything talons are a type of scything talon so the rule would apply to all scything talons.” To which I would respond: “That is an interpretation; the weapon is listed as Type: Melee in its profile and nowhere in the rules is there any mention of sub-types for weapons or anything similar. Sure we can look at the name of a weapon and see that they are similar and have elements in common but having things in common does not make one rule apply to something similar. When we look at RAW, we have to look at exactly what is written and what is not written. The writers could have put ‘Massive scything talons’ in the abilities part of the weapon description but they did not. Maybe that was an oversight but that would be speculation as none of us is the person who wrote the rule so we don’t know what the intent was.”

  • Malisteen

    It is utterly unclear from the wording whether ‘this weapon’ refers to the scything talons generally (ie, this weapon profile), or the individual pair in question. non-authorities arguing the question cannot produce a satisfactory answer, this requires official clarification.

  • ctFallen

    You get one attack, it says if you have more than one(that could be one to a million)you get +1 attack each time it fights. It only fights once in the fight phase, it may have multiple attacks in that phase but it only fights one time therefore only gets plus one attack. Tho it would be better if it said “one or more extra scything talons” rather than “more than one”.

    • Nyyppä

      It’s still “with this weapon” of which the unit may have 3 of.

  • MechBattler

    You get no attacks, as the Trygon is fed up with the player’s inability to read and interpret rules, and he leaves to work for a more competent commander.

  • Sergio Porres

    RAW, you have 6 base attacks to use as the CC rules describe. On top of that, you get to attack 1 extra attack with that specific weapon.

    For a total of 7

  • Fergie0044

    Seems simple;
    RAW = +3 attacks
    RAI = +1 attack (IMO – I doubt the designers would want people going through the unnecessary step of making separate attacks with the same weapon.)

    FAQ needed.

    • Nyyppä

      Just having the weapon is enough.

      • Fergie0044

        But why the clunky rule then? Could have just made it simpler with a unique rule or weapon.

        • Nyyppä

          How is it clunky. The weapon gives 1 attack with it if you have more than one. You may legitimately have 3. 3 times the weapon means 3 more attacks. 2 times the weapon would mean 2.

          It does not get much simpler than that.

  • BaronVonYoloing

    Why is this an issue? To me it’s only +1 attack because on the points page I’m only paying 60 points for massive scything talons (more than 1 pair) which is designated for Trygons and Trygon Primes only.

    Now if I paid for individual sets of massive scything talons at 22 points each then this could be more controversial but this isn’t an option for Trygons. I think some are trying to just bend the rules to their advantage where no such loophole exists.

    • Karru

      Okay, if this is your argument, let me ask you this.

      How many pairs of Massive Scything Talons does the Trygon have?

      After answering that, direct me to the part of the rulebook that states that Melee Weapons of the same type are counted as one weapon entry and not separate for each one.

      • BaronVonYoloing

        The correct answer is 3 of course but let’s also counter here with an argument you made earlier above.

        You talked about how if you have a 3 heavy bolters on a tank you get to fire them each. That’s correct of course but the difference between that and this case in the way I see it is that you pay 3x lots of points for 3 heavy bolters and treat each as a separate weapon whereas as here I only have the option of buying 1 set of scything talons that comprise of 2 or more pairs (which it states on points entry).

        In short I see it as you pay for the ONE set that comprises of two or more (hence the +1 attack) since when you attack with it there are more than 1 pair of scythes attacking.

        Plus Trygons are already cheap enough under the new edition. Do they need to feel like more ridiculous value for money lol? 😛

        • Karru

          But if we go with, say Power Rating, does that mean that Heavy Bolters are now counted as one weapon as you do not “buy” them separately?

          I still can’t take the “bundle” argument as being valid. You see, the problem with it is that there is no entry for one in the Weapons list (the one with stats). The Trygon is the only model in the game that has this problem. GW really needs to get the official FAQ for this one out.

          • BaronVonYoloing

            Oh I agree it’s not the best written or clear cut ruling as it is.

            I do take the bundle argument as there are other monsters in the Tyranid codex who could in theory abuse this (Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants spring to mind) but in order for them to do so they pay double the price of their talons to do so. The Trygon does not get such an option which implies to me that it isn’t supposed to get the ruling you believe.

          • NilOmniscient

            Then what about regular scything talons? They have the exact same wording and are purchased as individual pairs. There’s not an option for bundled versions, and several models can have 2 pairs. Raveners are stuck with 2 pair.

    • Michael Zielinski

      I am new to 40k but I do not see why the number of attacks is unclear. The keyword is when it fights. So when you activate your unit during the fight phase it can attack as many times as specified under attack in the unit’s profile. If you happen to have a weapon that gives you extra attacks when it fights you add this bonus once (for a total of 7 attacks here). Was the wording different ‘an attack with weapon x will give you an additional attack’ you’d end up with 12 attacks.
      Just my DKK .02
      Michael

      • Karru

        The whole argument is based on one thing.

        Those that say Trygon only gets +1 attack from the talons are saying that the Trygon does not in fact have three weapons, but one, and somehow that way is getting the additional attack.

        Then there are those that see that the datasheet indicates it has three of them, so three separate pairs of them, so it would have three entries of the same rule popping up, so the rule gets activated three times, as it does not state it doesn’t stack.

  • NagaBaboon

    I think they should get +1 per extra pair, but as written they get +1 and that’s it

  • Tobias Moon

    Personally would say it’s about how you split the attacks.
    If you split attacks like with shooting you have to declare all targets BEFORE making any roles.
    So, you start with 6 base CC attacks.
    You declare you will use 2 of these to attack target A with 2 sets of talons and get to add +1 attack, adding 1 die against that target. Then use 3 attacks to attack target B with 3 sets of talons and get +2 attack, adding 2 dice against that target. Then attack target C with your last attack, getting no bonus attack and so no extra dice.

    • Michael Zielinski

      Still it doesn’t say ‘every time you attack’ but ‘when you fight’ so it doesn’t really matetr how you split your attacks since it’s still the same fight

  • GravesDisease

    Urgh, and this is why we end up with overly worded rulebooks.

  • Fat_Bloke

    This is a non issue, the ability triggers when the model fights not when attacks are allocated to weapons. This provides the model with +1 attack using that weapon.

  • highwind

    Scything Talons read “+1 attack EACH TIME IT FIGHTS”, not “+1 attack each time it uses the weapon” so its pretty obvious

    • Astmeister

      No it is not!
      It has 3 weapons:

      1. weapon – Scy Tals: “add +1 A each time the user fights, if he has more than one pair”

      2. weapon – Scy Tals: “add +1 A each time the user fights, if he has more than one pair”

      3. weapon – Scy Tals: “add +1 A each time the user fights, if he has more than one pair”

      Why would he not get +3 Attacks?

      • Horus84cmd

        It is 60pts for “two or more”. By your logic, if the unit entry allow, I could have a model with 100’s sets for 60pts and thus gain 100 extra attacks – but we all know that is ridiculous.

      • Nathaniel Wright

        It would specifically state ‘for each pair’ rather than ‘if he has more than one pair’.

    • Horus84cmd

      So many people are using the phrase “Fights” and “Attack” synonymously. Which is so so wrong. For 40K rules terms they are two distinct things.

  • ellobouk

    “If I use 15 chainswords, can I get 15 extra attacks” Tyranid Edition

  • Nyyppä

    This is not a conundrum. Ffs, stop trying to break the rules.

  • Rufus Der Eisenhans

    Please read the Rulebook. Its free and here
    https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Rules

    Go through the steps
    1) Choose Unit
    2) Pile in
    3) Choose Targets
    as part of choose Target, you calculate your attacks.
    4) Choose Weapon
    5) etc etc

    Number of attacks is before section 4, thus, at that stage you have 2 or more pairs you get one +1

    Please guys this is just classic BoLs sensationalism

  • MechBattler

    Did everyone just forget that when a unit comes with multiple melee weapons as it’s base load out, the number of attacks on it’s profile reflects that? The bonus attacks are already there.

    Thus, by the principle of Occam’s Razor, the rule functions exactly as written – extra pairs give one extra attack.

    Unit Rules> Codex Rules > Main Rules.

    The the rules for the weapon tell you it gets +1 for more than one pair, that’s the end of the line. Trying to go backwards up the chain to argue for more attacks violates the chain. That’s how it’s worked for years. Unless an FAQ comes out saying otherwise, the weapon functions exactly as described in it’s rules, and that’s it.

  • BrotherGlacius

    Due to the fact that it says “this weapon” and not “these weapons” I would say you would get +1 attack per pair. “This weapon” refers to a pair of the giant scything talons, not all three pairs.

    • Sergio Celi

      Exactly, other Tyranid MC have the option of using one or two pairs of scything talons (and Massive). As a sidenote, in ShadowWar Armaggedon their +1 stacked. As in the 7th edition. (although they were useless).

  • bob82ca

    Each time you “Fight” you may add +1 attack. You are in ONE fight phase. When you split your attacks 3 ways you’re not participating in 3 fights. You are fighting, do you have more than 1 scything talons? Yes? Then +1 attack for that fight…how do you want to allocate your attacks?

  • Josh Felstead

    It’s just the +1 attack, case closed. This is badly written, but any attempt to use more than the +1 attack and you are most certainly THAT GUY, or, in more generic non-tabletop-gaming terms, you’re being a dick.

  • Nyyppä

    Got to give it to this site. Kudos for successful trolling. Huge fight out of a clear rule. You know your audience.