40K: My Beef With Astra Militarum

The Astra Militarum have always been the Armored Fist of the Emperor, but the codex may have gone too far.

For decades the enemies of the Emperor have hated the firepower of the Astra Militarum.  The army is a complex machine with many interlocking parts, wrapped arout the beating heart of the Order system.

But this was traditionally a blunt instrument.  The Militarum lacked in mobility what is had in firepower.  It lacked in heroes what it had in sheer bodies. It wasn’t a fancy subtle force.  It was the closest 40K ever got to an Napoleonics army.  It had obvious strengths and obvious weaknesses.

Until 8th Edition

The new codex is very powerful – perhaps too much so.  Here’s my thoughts on the previous shortcoming the Astra Militarum had and they have all been shored up in 8th.

Unreliable Shooting?

The Doctrine system (Cadians, Mordians, Catachans), and orders can give quite a bit of rerolls, or just increase the volume of AM firepower.  Leman Russes’ Grinding Advance rules doubled their turret firepower when moving 5″ or less.  Combines with those Regimental doctines and the affordability of the tank means you should be prepared for heavy incoming firepower, and Armored company lists to gain a following.

Easy to Kill?

Things like Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier, and Take Cover combine to give the AM something I think was a grave mistake – easy cheap ways to increase their cover saves or degrade enemy shooting.  The AM always had the weakness of being easy to mow down, but made up for it in the sheer bodies department.  Now you can get 3+, or even occasional 2+ or 1+ saves in the proper situations with AM units in cover.  A big surprise when facing an army that throws out such volume of fire.

Slouches in Assault?

Ogryns , Priests and Crusaders help a lot.  A relatively inexpensive unit with Stormshields and power swords augmented by Acts of Faith and Priests really help to blunt the ineveitable assault when it does hit the AM’s lines.


 

Slow?

8th Edition has already made the Fast Attack concept somewhat quaint.  When lumbering units like the Tallarn Baneblade can move 22″ in a turn under ideal conditions – the army is hardly slow.

AM is an Army that “fits” with 8th

Last but not least is the overall design of the army.  The AM is an army that plays the numbers game and plays it well.  It doesn’t rely on super characters or vehicles that can do amazing things and soak up 200-400 points.  Instead the entire army is focussed on tossing out buckets of dice, and buffing them as needed via orders, doctines and Strategems.  The AM toolbox is now very large and general-purpose.

More importantly it interlocks perfectly with 8th Edition – an entire ruleset focused on sheer weight of dice to get things done.  With the alterations to the Strength VS toughness chart and the homogenization of vehicles and infantry into the same statlines – things like Conscript squads throwing out 120 lasgun shots can and will eventually take down big elite units.  Throw enough dice at a threat and it’s going down.

And that is exactly what the Astra Militarum army is and does – it plays the numbers game.

In a meta already gravitating away from elite armies to hordes of cheap bodies to maximize dice – the Astra Militarum’s time in the sun has come.

~ What army do you think can best take on the AM and win?

  • Austin Kennedy
  • spla5hmummy

    I think the Imperial Guard could take on Astra Militarum and win. But only just.

    • luke-vdv

      95% of the time they would beat them every time.

  • Moose

    And yet its the number crunches of 40k that ruin the “meta”,

    • Aaron

      yeah I have never run the conscript spam or 3X50 man blobs, I have always run a combined arms list

      • Fredddy

        now imagine me, playing IG horde since 3rd, and suddenly 8rd ed comes, the world goes crazy and everyone is hating me. 🙂

        • SpaceDwarf

          Same boat, man. My Cadians are both literally and figuratively totally metal.

          • Karru

            Isn’t it just lovely? I started my Infantry Guard army in 6th edition, at least properly as I played them in 5th edition as well with their 4th edition codex. No one batted an eye towards me when I brought my 80+ Infantry models on the table with basically no Tank support. 8th edition drops, people suddenly avoid me like the plague as soon as they heard that Horde Armies were the strongest and now I am the beardy cheese monger.

          • Fredddy

            OK, this happens to anyone who gets a new, strong codex, I know people who really love Tau or Eldar or Wolves (being anime/Tolkien/viking fans) and they became public enemy nr 1 too when those codexes were the top. And the hate just comes in general form from the internet, the actual peolpe here just jokingly say that how cool I prepare for this moment since 15 years. The only thing I’lI actually miss from the not-top-codex era is that in the elite army times no one was prepared for an army of 200 men, now everyone is arming against hordes 🙂

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          Happened to me with my IG and happened to me with my Ravenwing, the army that got me into the game in 2nd…

          • Muninwing

            now imagine how much worse it would have been if the rumor was true and Ward wrote the 6th ed codex… since 7th just added on top.

            it’s the big issue with codex-based rules releases. they need something big and impressive, but often are not in line with proper points. thus, creep creep creep…

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            I hear you. I felt the same way with Eldar last two editions. 7th was supposed to tone down that codex and instead ramped the power up to 11. It was the final straw that made me sell my Craftworld Eldar.

  • Mike Forrey

    Just means you have to make sure your games are LOADED down with terrain and make sure there are impassable spots on the board. Careful objective placement will also be key.

    • Ryan Busby

      My local meta relies on mostly open terrain, unfortunately (for them).

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Open terrain… Like an old Warhammer Fantasy table? I would hate to play 40k on such an empty board.

        • Ryan Busby

          Yeah. Where the terrain is all in the corners and you have lots of open field to cross. Hate it. Especially when I am playing with Ynnari or other lists that needs some sort of terrain to survive.

          I also main Infinity, so have to try and curb my snooty terrain desires sometimes.

      • Muninwing

        i wish there was a 1CP stratagem that you could use that allowed you to place 2d6 terrain pieces before the start of the game…

        • Danny Janevski

          Love it

    • Danny Janevski

      Or fix the AM codex lol

  • Seafarer

    Looks like Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors/Noise Marines Legion powers/weapons may become really popular.

    • Spacefrisian

      You figured it out as well. Glad i aint the only one.

    • Marco Marantz

      Yeah but pity all your small arms that benefit from such rules will be blown off the table by the IG within 3 turns.

    • Munn

      Point for point you can’t kill them as fast as they can kill you.

    • Noise Marines will never become popular, just because they’re like Havocs. GW will never update their models…

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Remember when Imperial Guard were the bees knees in 5th? Leaf Blower could kill everything!

    Then people adapted and Leaf Blower went away.

    Same thing will happen here.

    Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors (and I am sure some Eldar or Tau faction will as well) completely eliminate cover.

    Characters can be killed by Snipers.

    The army relies on its characters to take it from a mass of useless bodies and turn it into a force to be reckoned with. People just need to adapt to the new reality and come up with ways to defeat Guard.

    • Lucas Miguel

      Adaptations are natural in this game, but the degree which you can adapt (and be countered) leaves some room to be desired in some instances.

      Everyone seems to say snipers are great character counters…except they aren’t, and the best snipers in the game are part of the Imperium. More than a few xenos armies don’t have any, and others like Chaos have to go to FW to get good-but-not-enough versions (2x marauder isn’t exactly something I’d bank on killing a character).

      Which is cool if you have a squad of them, only to realize IG now get bodyguards to negate all that IF you can see the characters IF they are in range. More often than not, a commissar doesn’t hide where los can be drawn to him, meaning even if you had a sniper unit, they can’t pin him down.

      What you are saying has been said since 8th dropped, and I’ve yet to really, really hear people come up with a good way to deal with this kind of thing other than kill everything in front of it so you can kill the one guy that made the stuff you just killed better.

      • CommieTrash

        Snipers are good against guard though. All characters are at most 4 hp and only one has a 4++(Yarrick) and most are also T3 without any real saves. They are small enough to hide behind tanks though.

        • Munn

          I can los any guard character with the tank it’s buffing

        • Danny Janevski

          You’re talking about imperium mostly though right …

      • ZeeLobby

        Agreed. Seen a lot of sniper theory crafting but have yet to see it matter.

      • Barrington Dailey

        Agreed. Actually it can be even worse with more terrain. AM leaders just hide in buildings and use Vox Casters. This “tactic” totally negates any snipers.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        The fact that Chaos lacks snipers is 100% an issue with GW, not the concept. Snipers were trash before this edition.

        The Imperium has the best sniper and many other snipers. Eldar have great snipers. Tau have snipers. Tyranids (by way of Genestealer Cults) have snipers.

        So really its just Chaos and Orks who lack snipers.

        If you can’t see the sniper, then you need to do something to disrupt the enemy lines and force the enemy to move.

        • LankTank

          Snipers? That’s a funny way to spell Kharn and Berserkers

        • mysterex

          Aren’t Lootas what Orks think a sniper should be?

    • Marco Marantz

      Not every faction gets snipers.

    • Drpx

      I keep hearing the Sniper meme but how hard will it be to shoot them off the table with +500 shots and how much will it gimp your army taking enough to kill 5 characters in a turn? Because those snipers will only be there for one turn.

    • Jose Delgado

      Typical answer of those with overpowers army who think that the win because they are good.

      Yes ig is winning every tournament because nobody know how to play vsig….. Sure good joke.

      Ig is more broken than eldars in 7th and they are instawin with zero skill.

  • euansmith

    You want Beef with the Astra Militarum? Next you’ll be demanding Buffalo Wings with your Space Marines!

    • Sonic tooth

      Extra cheese!

    • Spacefrisian

      While Apocalyptic music plays in the background?

    • lorieth

      The Hive Mind approves of this post.

      • euansmith

        From what I hear, the main duty of the Genestealer Cults is to lay in a huge supply of Piri Piri Sauce before the Hive Fleet arrives.

        • lorieth

          Ah yes, for the infamous Pirivores.

  • Carey_Mahoney

    “The Militarum lacked in mobility […].”
    It had Valkyries, Vendettas, Assault Tanks and, I dare say it, Rough Riders. Vendetta Spam used to be a thing.

    • Karru

      And here I am sitting with my Sentinels, the unit that most people seem to forget even exists in the Guard book.

      • Carey_Mahoney

        I use Armoured Sentinels, too. So yeah, another example to falsify what is claimed in the article.

        • Thomas Jackson

          a roving armored plasma cannon squadron is fun!

          • Carey_Mahoney

            Indeed.

          • Muninwing

            or take the scout version and use a fast squad full of cheap shooting.

            are they still able to take HKs? my old squad (since 4th) had 2x multilasers and a lascannon, each with a HK, and would enter from a board edge to blow a hole in my opponent right away.

            i suppose with rear armor no longer being a thing, they are much less important than they used to be…

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      They still exist, in the Indexes.

  • Troy Dean

    I’ve been playing Astra Miniguardsmen since 2nd Edition. Posts grumbling like this give me power.

    • Drpx

      Enjoy it before the fourth quarter sales come in and GW knee jerk nerfs the hell out of Guard or fast prints a dozen supplements buffing Marines.

    • luke-vdv

      A veteran who doesn’t call them Imperial Guard? That’s some serious heresy right there.

  • Fredddy

    The real power level of the IG codex could be only seen when all the codexes are out. Until then a codex force with stratagems and unique warlord traits always has the upper hand against one without a codex. Negative to hit modifiers for example, will be very bad for IG, there are already lots of them and they are cumulative. Playing against an eldar you hit only on 6+- suddenly those reroll 1s really do not matter that much.

    And the IG is not a buff army, never was. Sure, you can get a 3+ cover with a crazy combo of 5 things- for what, a unit worth of 50 points of which you have 10 more left unbuffed? I prefer just bringing one more for the points, but even if you play the buff game, its still the numbers what really matter.

    • CommieTrash

      Don’t forget now you can have combined squads with Stratagems. Technically you can buff a unit as big as your CP allows. Granted you have to do it in one of your turns so turn one they can kill a squad or two.

      • Fredddy

        Honestly, I do not think combined squads stratagem that strong. Combining can be an option, depending of the situation, but generally it is expensive in CPs, and somehow limiting in movement, deployment and CC. On the bottom line you are again at spending more on buffing than its gain.

        • Barrington Dailey

          Must AM armies seem to have *at least* 10 CP.

          • Fredddy

            In my last tournament I had 13 CPs and I was out of them at turn three (ok, you could use the rerolls for seize the initiative and objective results and that did not counted towards the limit of 1/phase). CP is never enough.

          • Drpx

            The Brigade detachment is what used to be their standard Force.

  • Parthis

    Yeah, this new book is broken and way overpowered.

    Until the next book.

    Death Guard anyone? So many mortal wounds. Broken.

    The community, generally, doesn’t seem capable of adjustment without panic. This site doubly so.

    etc etc.

    • Luca Lacchini

      110% agree.

    • ZeeLobby

      Power creep is a concern though. It’ll be interesting to see where things stand once all codexes are released, but anyone believing GW has masterminded some kind of meta counter system into their codexes is delusional imo.

      • Luca Lacchini

        I don’t think there’s a magical formula of “rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock” that GW injected into the 8th edition framework (I wish!), but rather a normalization of sorts between armies in regard of power levels, and at the same time a more characterized niche for each of them.
        For example, giving transports to AdMech would have made that faction so much more flexible that it would have made it bland and unbalanced at the same time. The way it is, it’s a great allied army or a difficult to master highly limited faction. I find this approach OK-ish.
        Obviously, in a year or two (xenos Codexes, old range squatting, new stuff on the shelves) we’ll see if it’s something just temporary or a built-in theme.

        • Fredddy

          What current AdMech really needs is simply that they get the HH Mechanicum units.

      • I get the worry about power creep, but each point of data causing a freak out is annoying. The guard codex is great. There are multiple good options and decision making is going to be key. It is, in short, exactly what I want a faction’s rules to be. Hopefully, GW will keep the power level fairly even and this will be a good edition. If they can’t and a few codices that haven’t been good for a while have some time in the sun, that’s ok too.

        • ZeeLobby

          I mean it’s definitely a process. I just have never seen GW keep an even level of codex power in the past, so I just don’t see it ever happening here. I remember when Blood Angels, Orks and Dark Eldar came out in 6th/7th and I was like man, maybe this is the new toned down power level, and everything will be brought to this level and the game will be great. But then came Necrons, and then Eldar, and it was obvious that there was no consideration of balance the whole time.

          I mean I would love to be proven wrong, and it’ll take some looking back after the initial codex wave is over, but I just have minimal hope. I know people freaking out over every single codex release is a little much, but part of me wonders why GW didn’t just wait a year and release them all at once… ( i mean we know it’s to please shareholders, but still).

          • My hope is inflated a bit because I like this codex. Not because it’s OP (although it looks like it is so far), but because units work as they should. The 6th/7th books you mentioned weren’t good. They were mediocre and the only thing making them appealing was balance. I’m hoping that GW has managed some semblance of balance while keeping thing fun. It’s thin, I know, but even if a couple of books get left behind, if there are 4 or 5 books at this power level, I’ll be happy. Particularly if the top tier books include factions like DE, Sisters, and Orks that have been neglected for so long.

      • Drpx

        I had some hope when the indexes dropped, “maybe they learned all the armies should be updated at once.” But no, they just wiped out all the old books to start the cycle over.

      • LankTank

        I’m not seeing any power creep at the moment. DG, Chaos, IG and Marines seem to have real solid codex’ each able to throw down at each other. Suddenly Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors even seem a little better with more camping Armour buff models in circulation. I don’t know enough about Ad Mech to make a judgement but GK seem a little weak. And as a Chaos player that makes me SO happy =)
        People just seem to forget that “scary” unit they read before. I mean have Hellblasters with re-roll to hit and wounds suddenly become redundant? Maybe against IG but definitely not against Marines, Admech, DG, GK and Chaos. Is Mortarion already written off as useless? He would EAT IG with his -1 T, Curse of the Leper and -1 to Hit buffs. Have Dunecrawlers now become a joke? NOPE.

    • Marco Marantz

      Death Guard have clear weaknesses though.

    • Munn

      I don’t think anyone really thinks the DG codex is OP, it’s just their gimmick seems strong. The AM index army was already top tier and this book made it WAAAAY stronger.

    • Drpx

      DG: “Just wait till we get within half a foot of you with our 5″ movement.”

  • Hendrik Booraem VI

    Wait, no… I was ASSURED by THIS WEBSITE that the fact that anything in 8th edition could wound anything else would NOT lead to “conscripts taking down Land Raiders.”

    How is it that the great and powerful Larry Vela is now taking my position?

    • ZeeLobby

      Some people suffer from blind Faith in the companies they love, haha.

    • Munn

      He said ‘elite units’ Killing terminators works fine, shooting at land raiders with lasguns is still idiotic when you have 2 dozen different options to down a land raider like it was made out of tissue paper.

    • Drpx

      They won’t. The massed plasma and Smite spam behind them will.

  • Heinz Fiction

    The Imba-rial Guard is back baby!
    Honestly: It’s ok when Space Marines are good at everything but if AM does something other than stand and shoot it’s unhealty for the game? i’m not a guard player myself but i like it when an amry isn’t that one dimensional.

    • Munn

      Misrepresent the argument and then defeat your made-up version. Nice. The AM still just stands and shoots, the difference now is, OH you wanna run them down? Well you can’t because they’re faster than you. Oh you wanna melee them to death, can’t, they have 200million conscripts, you wanna out shoot them? Better be another guard player. They’re still a stand and shoot gunline, they’re just a stand and shoot gunline that has none of the weakness of a stand and shoot gunline.

      • Miss his point and then argue the one you prefer. Nice.

        • Muninwing

          i mean, i think he has a bit of a point… it used to be that an army that had cheaper units due to weaknesses would in fact retain those weaknesses.

          i personally blame the Tau. at least their book. worse even than riptide spam for me was the fact that they got to neutralize their own weakness with free special rules, but kept their same points value.

          that went unchallenged, and now we have Guard doing the same thing.

          there’s a line between “one dimensional” and “covers every base” that every army should fall into. at very minimum, there should be an element of force-choice: either you’re good at a, b, or c, but you may choose only one. this book seems to have ways around many limiters. sure that means they get to be a bit more proactive… but i don’t like in SM, or any other army, so why would i like it here?

          • I think the OP’s point was that SM has had that flexibilty for a long time and a lot of players just accepted that. Now another imperial faction gets it and they freak out. My suspicion is that a lot of the freakout is from SM players who are having a hard time with the prospect of not being a top codex for once. For one, Chapter Approved might level the field again, and for two, that’s a fair trade for all the lovely models SM gets, when other factions are still trading in metal or plastics almost old enough to drive.
            We’ll see how it goes in practice, but you can’t take all the good stuff at the same time. Cadians sacrifice mobility for firepower. Catachans get improved Heavy Weapons, in exchange for doing something, assault, that Guard does badly slightly better than their peers. Mordians are hard to assault at the expense of being able to cover less area. Steel Legion gets to shoot and scoot and slightly tougher vehicles, but get no shooting buffs. Tallarn is the only one that I think they probably went too far with. A lot of the power in this book comes from strategems, which require choices. Choices require strategy. I don’t want my playstyle decided by my choice of faction. It’s a big reason why my Guard didn’t see much use. They weren’t flexible enough to be fun. This book offers more than one Guard strategy and more than one tactic for successfully carry it out. I sincerely want every faction to have this kind of flexibility. It may be that this is a beast of a codex and will ruin the game, but I think it’s a bit early for that. Both of the Angels, the Wolves, a couple more Chaos factions, Tau, different flavors of Eldar, Nids, Necrons, and maybe even Sisters have yet to have their day. I can’t help but think this freak out is a bit premature and mainly happening because geeks just like to freak out.

    • Drpx

      Yeah because nobody ever complained about marines or Eldar.

  • Josh Felstead

    Here’s a wild concept: Maybe GW has decided that it’s time to make all armies equally as desirable to play as each other, with new units/rules advantages across all factions roughly balancing out to keep everyone happy?

    • Crevab

      It would be nice if that happened

    • ZeeLobby

      We can dream!

    • Munn

      OR, we just saw 8th eds version of Codex: Necrons powercreep and now get to wait to see what get the Codex: Craftworld Eldar treatment.

  • Spacefrisian

    Next they are telling us the new Eldar codex is to strong…Imagine how strong the Battle Sisters codex will be once its released, 2+ shield of faith save, auto deny psychic powers and acts of faith that flat out denies any wounding.

    • Munn

      That would be the best.

  • I_am_Alpharius

    Really struggling to see any particular issue here. On paper, yeah, AM can have armies that produce a lot of firepower, is fast or has lots of re-rolls available etc..but can they really do all these things at once effectively? Or is it really only 1 or two aspect a player can focus on or push to the limit and risk becoming a one trick tactic army? Also none of this takes into consideration the array of missions or objectives an army would have to contend with; which has a huge impact on the effectiveness of different lists. Lastly, as it has been, when facing a Guard army, for the last 3/4 editions; take out the officer’s/command units and the AM can quickly crumble.

    • Munn

      They can easily do all of these things effectively, they have enough bodies with enough movement that objectives don’t matter even if you can survive their shooting, good freaking luck actually taking out the officers when they’re out of LOS in cover with a 6″ thick conscript wrapping paper.

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Indeed they can do them all effectively, which I was I said. However, and more importantly, as I pointed out in my post: can AM achieve all these things effectively at the same time? I severely doubt that’s the case, an army list will always be lacking in something.

  • BigGrim

    The sky is falling!

    Except it ain’t. People will adapt.

    • Drpx

      Adapt=play other armies/games until GW releases new rules.

  • Marco Marantz

    On the point about stormshields – they have almost always been broken and clearly cater to Imperial bias. No other faction got a 3++ for 15 points. Other factions had to pay 20 points for a 4+.

  • Randy Randalman

    If you play games with proper terrain (which people haven’t since 4th edition), the buckets of dice don’t mean anything.

    • To get this shifted, tournaments need to start having more terrain. People follow tournament-standard for almost everything around here for how to set up tables. If the tournament-standard is very little terrain, unsurprisingly people will be ok with that in their casual games too (especially those that use casual games as practice games for tournaments)

      • I_am_Alpharius

        Simple solution for tournaments is to require all participant to bring along, with their army, one piece of terrain (say no more than 6″x6″x6″). Then every table will have two additional bits of terrain on what the organisers provide.

        • 40KstillRulesTheTT

          That is actually a great idea ! Give that man a piece of terrain !

          • I_am_Alpharius

            awww I wanted cake 🙁

            Sometimes I do have good ideas….

        • Fredddy

          Great idea (and Im an IG player, but still)

      • Muninwing

        ( i just said this up above…)

        i want GW to release a stratagem that adds up to 2d6 pieces of terrain to the table

        • Or just have an official system where you roll terrain randomly like it used to be and have the terrain on hand.

    • Drpx

      If we had more terrain, we could stop all wars and save the environment too.

  • Everybody panic!

    Good, now that is over with, can we just wait for a few more codices to drop before we do this again. So who is next? Eldar?

    Everybody panic!

  • SpaceDwarf

    This is looking like it’s the first AM Codex to have fluffiness, flexibility, and a decent power-price ratio since *4th edition*.
    Yeah, the 5th book was good, but we lost the fluffiness and flexibility; it was basically “Codex: Knockoff Cadians”. The 6th-7th book piled on by overpricing just about everything.
    I mean, GW didn’t even have the common courtesy to give us any reasonable update to the 6th book for an entire edition. That’s post-4th Dark Eldar-level not caring. Don’t get salty about an absolutely core faction getting a halfway decent Codex for a change.

    • Fredddy

      It was quite good after a few months when the last codex was new, I actually won a local tournament with infantry IG army (including the 100 conscripts :)) whith that codex in early 7th ed. (Then the formations came and codex creep went crazy.)

  • Kyle Stetson

    Get gud?

  • Danny Janevski

    AM needed a Nerf… But they got a buff. GG GW.. aren’t they paying attention?

    • LankTank

      Well yeah because there has only been 6 codex’ so far…
      And did they need a Nerf? They had ONE trick, a over saturated order receiving Conscript flood. That ONE trick is now worse at orders and unit size. Instead AM get a variety of tactical depth with each faction playing differently and maximizing a particular strength. I applaud that

      • Danny Janevski

        They had a few tricks mate. One was the no line of sight firing for example

        I agree with you I applaud the changes and this the options are awesome now. I would be happy as a guard player but I hope the Nerf you are talking about is enough. The fact that they have a 50% of not doing something makes alot of sense too.

        I guess time will tell.

        • LankTank

          Sorry should have clarified, I meant what is considered to be “broken” tricks that disheartened opponents to ever verse them again =) As a DG player I am very excited to take on some strong AM lists. Always wanted a AM army myself but you know… DG, CSM, Tyranids and Orks at the same time =(

          • Danny Janevski

            Ahhh I feel your pain =) Personally I would love a mechanised list – tanks are awesome to paint.

          • Muninwing

            you can find cheap poorly-painted Leman Russes on Ebay all the time. just scoop them, strip them, fix them up, and field refurbished.

            i’ve got a whole crapload of IG tanks that i can’t wait to field. 3 chimera squads, 8 Russes, and some artillery make for a solid start to a list.

          • LankTank

            I know right?
            I’m trying to convince myself to do the whole AM detachment to a Genestealer Cult and basically go mad on Deathstrikes but I thought I would wait until the Tyranid codex drops to make sure that rule is still there.
            Imagine 3 Deathstrikes smacking your army right before a Carnifex rampages in XD

  • generalchaos34

    This is definitely a first to me to be on the receiving end of professional blubbering after sucking for for so long…..But I would like to point out, according to the numbers even with all this bull about “AM was the strongest index book” the #1 army taking tournaments is chaos soup. Say what you will, but all this posturing and telling me that my army is mean and OP wont change the fact that the meta still says Chaos wins.

  • IronMaster

    There is a constant complaint about how “super powerful” the AM are now. They are in fact powerful, that I won’t deny. SM can also (and have always been) powerful as well. Chaos are powerful. Anytime an army ends up getting more choices, it’s going to get more powerful.

    Also the vast majority of these complaints are based off of Math/Theoryhammer. That a list is going to consist of all tanks, all conscripts, all weapons teams, and all infantry squads, all at the same time.

  • Calgar

    Just remember we still have Tau, Eldar, and Necron codices to come. If history tells us anything they will totally suck and not be able to challenge the might of the Imprial Militarum Astro-Guard! Go Imperium…Wooooooo

  • Dan

    I just want the Night Lord’s whole being scary schtick to actually work reliably. Some armies may be better at morale than others but why come up with neat mechanics then make it so they just flat out can be ignored 🙁

    • LankTank

      I hate what Night Lords do to my Death Guard. Honestly Lost 2 which became lost 4 after the -3 morale. Then CP to re-roll the 5 which became a 6 to lose 5 =( =( =(

  • mafiacheese

    “Now you can get 3+, or even occasional 2+ or 1+ saves in the proper situations with AM units in cover.”

    Saves cannot be improved beyond 2+, full stop; 1’s have always been failures. Please quit sensationalizing stuff.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Well almost. A save “can” get to 1+ (indeed in theory you can get into negatives*) for the purposes of applying things the effect of AP. However, you are indeed correct in that a roll of a 1 is always a failed save, regardless of modifiers.

      *Only T and Ld characteristics cannot be modified below 1.

      • Son_of_Corax_XIX

        Simple answer is again inadequate research by the writer to spread conflict and misinformation

        • InstaAxeToast

          It is not misinformation at all. You can go beyond a 2plus save as stated above.

          There is no rule that says you cannot.

          There is a rule saying 1s always fail. This is not the same thing.

          Where is matters is ap modifiers. If you have a 0up save and get hit by a -2 weapon that outs you back to a 2up save.

          • Son_of_Corax_XIX

            Actually when you speak to GW event managers they actually say as does the rules no save can be improved past 2+ that’s been the same since 3rd ed. So actually it is misinformation

          • InstaAxeToast

            It does not matter what some GW even TO says. Unless there is a FAQ it is not official. And they have had plenty of time to FAQ it.

          • Son_of_Corax_XIX

            Actually does matter when they work at warhammer world and also what’s an even to? I’ve never heard of such a job title, enlighten me.
            Don’t need to FAQ something that’s been the norm and assumed knowledge since 40k started and is and has been stated in every edition.

          • InstaAxeToast

            Event TO, which is a tournament organizer. Sorry for the typo, no need to be like that.

            Assuming rules is a bad idea. This is a new edition with totally different rules.

            Unless there is a FAQ, hearsay from a guy at Warhammer World does not matter.

          • Muninwing

            it is stated in 8th? can you find it?

            rules from earlier editions are irrelevant to the new edition.

          • stinkoman

            these aren’t saves though. if you get +1 to your dice roll with a 2 up save, you still have a 2 up save, you just get to add one to the dice roll. (1’s still fail). i think the distinction is the way most describe it by just modifying the save. you dont modify the save, you modify the dice in 8th.

          • Son_of_Corax_XIX

            Well, they are being said as saves when they aren’t. You are correct that modifiers add to your dice roll but they don’t improve the save which is what the article is saying, which in itself is misinformation

          • Muninwing

            … except that these two things are not the same. and if you need to go with a “this is implied” then you’re not actually following the rules as written.

            we now have the 7+ to “do thing” (with negative modifiers). so we have the 1+ unless the rules state that you cannot improve below 2+. sure, the 1 always fails… but if that roll gets a -1, it becomes a 2+ (not a 3+, as it would if the 1+ was explicitly forbidden by the rules)

            this is not only supportable by the rules as written, it is also critical to the new structure of the new edition.

    • Son_of_Corax_XIX

      But then there is not bait or misinformation. BoLs thrives on in both

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Genestealers, Knights, Necrons, Drukhari. Alaitoc or Tau. I disagree that they’re unbeatable, because you have to focus to be able to make those lists work at peak efficiency, so you likely won’t see blob infantry and heavy armour in the same list, let alone with specialist units like Psykers or Crusaders, at a level where each playstyle fully impacts the game together. And those save buffs are only available once per turn, and require luck to fully actuate. There are plenty of units that can deal with these advantages.

  • swiftscythe

    My Tyranids better be as good or better than Guard cause the last two times the Tyranid codex was **** against marines and Guard. When a power platoon of 5 combined squads all with rerolls and outnumbers your 30 gant brood there is something wrong

  • SteelMaelstorm

    This is what happens when the play testers favorite army gets a new Codex.

  • LordKrungharr

    The main reason I hate horde armies is they take too friggin long to set up, move, and do everything else. It took a Skaven player in Sigmar a half hour to set all his damn rats up. Gotta be some sort of time clock or something to cost them points for taking too long!

  • Jose Delgado

    Finally someone what says the ssme that all think.

    Ig was broken overpower and now got the best codex so far also. So if ig was top by 20% now gw release codex and ig is top by 60% .

    Gj gw!

  • You are way too butt-hurt about this. If you do the math, 120 shots = 60 hits = 10 wounds (not including saves) on average. You would need over 1000 lasgun shots to reliably kill Mortarion or Magnus. Have you seriously put this army through its paces? Obviously not since the codex hasn’t even hit the streets, yet.

  • James Morris

    Considering we have hardly any codexes out it seems a bit of an overreaction to put it mildly.