40K Op-Ed: The Problem with Uber-Elite Armies

Adeptus Custodes look to be the most elite army in the game – GW will have it’s work cut out for them to make them fair.

 

8th Edition is ALL about the math. More-so that previous editions, the homogenization of all units into a single stat line and the change to S vs T table have sanded out the differences between units and brought everything closer together.  There is a certain “sameness” to everything that both a boon and a bane to the system. It makes 40K very easy to learn and understand – and keeps the game moving smoothly regardless of what you put on the table. It also limits the uniqueness of many units.  If you throw enough dice at anything – it’s going to die…

OK, it’s basically a powerfist with a bolter built in – but it looks WAY cooler!

Uber Elite Armies

Which brings me to today’s topic – the difficulty of designing uber-elite armies, and the added challenge in 8th.

Generally an Uber-Elite army will be any force with

  • Extremely low model count
  • High cost per model
  • High performance per model

The trick is exactly how to make these characteristics work on the 8th Edition tabletop. The Adeptus Custodes have all the hallmarks of this in spades.

The default Index Imperium2 Custodes clocks in at 52pts per model. So right there if you just took nothing but basic Custodians your 2000pt list has about 38 guys.  That’s the MAX.  Now start adding Terminators, Land Raiders, pricey HQs and those oh so sexy Jetbikes and that number is headed south fast.  How far south?

A commenter yesterday was talking about a Custodes test game that had 19 models in the entire list!

Now let’s bring this back to 8th Edition.

Want to kill off 25% of that guy’s army?  That’s 4-5 models!

The Crux of the Matter

And here’s the Problem with Uber Elite armies. For them to have any chance of victory they have to do a blend of 4 things:

  • Extremely high lethality on a per model basis
  • Extremely high durability on a per model basis
  • Be fun to play
  • Be fun to play against

It’s the last two that are the hardest to get right.

Normally increasing lethality is easy. You load up units with crazy weapons, and give them rules that let them use them often and with extra effectiveness.  You can see this with the Custodes rules already released:

These guys won’t be messing around in the lethal department.

It’s the durability that is tougher.  With low model counts – EVERY DEAD MODEL hurts.  There is little margin for error and the army’s damage output will plummet quickly as models die.  That said – you cant go overboard as armies with extremely high durability are frustrating to play against.  Think of things like a maxed out Necron list with every trick to get models back, or armies uber-buffed to make them almost impossible to hit.  Those tend to be not-fun games.  You can see some of that too with the released Custodes rules:

Just try to kill us!

 

What’s the Answer

Good question – and we don’t know enough yet. We will have to see the full codex to see if GW has threaded the needle with Custodes and given 8th Edition a successful Uber-Elite force.  You can get a vague feel for it my imagining an entire army of the cheap 4W HQ support characters – put into units.  It is going to be a struggle to down each and every one, and each Custodes you drop will feel like a small win. But still I can’t help but feel that the Custodes will eternally fighting an uphill struggle.

To win reliably they will need answers to:

  • Maxed out tarpit units that exist to simply tie them down and run out the clock.
  • Giant Horde armies that outnumber them by 6-8:1 or more.
  • Massed mid-strengh (S:5-6) fire directed their way.
  • Any tricks that eliminate invulnerable saves, or lower their toughness (say for example Nullzone, Death Hex, or Doom)

I really really want to see GW make the Custodes both awesome and reflect their background on the tabletop. But they also need to be fun and viable – and that’s the REAL tricky design problem.

Because remember: this is 8th Edition – and if you throw enough dice at anything – it dies.

BLAMO!

~How do you think Uber-Elite armies should be reflected on the tabletop in 8th? – and can ANY @20 model 2000pt army survive in the meta?

 

 

  • ectoplasmic gyrator

    oh yay, another critique before we have the book – didn’t see that one coming!

    http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/507756419289427c262b6040f4027a0a943776a860db7fd76be35042ad313633.jpg

  • Luca Lacchini

    Elite armies (and uber elite even more so) need some inherent mechanic that helps them shrug off massed low strenght firepower without becoming invulnerable to that, and better – not game breaking – anti horde weapons to kill off tarpits.
    That’s all.
    You are elite, you have low numbers. Not only against hordes, against everyone who’s not on the same tier.

    • NagaBaboon

      The trouble with that is exactly what the author touched upon, it’s frustrating and boring for a player to throw 50 dice at a unit to only get 1 wound, I mean if you’re shooting bolters at a leman russ then it’s to be expected but when you’re shooting your anti infantry weapons at your opponents most basic infantry and it’s happening, it leaves you questioning why you bothered to try to build a balanced list.

      • Luca Lacchini

        A balanced list has stuff to deal with that. Like some weapons that won’t just bounce off the Leman Russ.
        And if I field Hormagaunts with fleshborers, that’s not the same “basic infantry” idea as let’s say, Intercessor marines.

        • Wampasaurus

          Hormagaunts are armed only with Scything Talons and are a strictly Fight Phase Troops choice unit. Termagants are the Troops choice that are able to shoot and can be armed with Fleshborers.
          We of the Gestalt Hive Mind forgive this minor ignorance and hope we can help with any further “transition” questions you may have. Enjoy the Juice Box!

        • orionburn III

          I think you’re right in regards to viewing it from a fluff standpoint. How else have some of these characters managed to live for thousands of years? I played a game where I put around 120 shots into Voldus from my Devilgants. Hit rolls were average, but as soon as you start doing S4 vs T5 you drop a ton of wounds. Then factor in a good armour save and/or and invuln save and that negates it all the more. In the end I think I manged to do a single wound. In the end it was basically like shooting lasguns at a Land Raider. There’s always that odd chance a lucky shot or two gets through, but all in all you’re better off shooting at a target that you have a higher chance of actually wounding.

          • euansmith

            Maybe 9th Edition will be App based; with the an army builder and die roller in one.

            The players could sync up their lists, then they could highlight the attacking and target unit, mark check boxes for cover, range and whatever, roll 2D6 to add a bit of tactile randomness in to the exchange, and then the App could divulge the outcome.

          • stinkoman

            yeah, and you wont even have to set up any models, just have the app play it out.

          • BrianAWC

            I was wondering the other day why GW went all out making AoS digital and didn’t really release any kind of app for 40k.

            Then it dawned on me that maybe they’re saving the digital release for a future “big” product of some kind. Maybe something that surpasses even what they’ve done with AoS. Something you could actually use in-game as a roster that tracks wounds, VPs, etc.

          • euansmith

            It could be fun, as an App could add all sorts of conditions and fiddly stuff to the game that would be to annoying to track with markers and the like.

          • Spacefrisian

            The one time i can go wild, and i have to stare at a tiny screen again… At least there are no lootboxes…Yet

          • No thank you. Just remember in the post apocalyptic world – us tabletop gamers will still be getting on just fine while all the video-gamers lament their sad state.

          • euansmith

            Well, that is seeing the silver lining in a very dark cloud for sure. 😉

        • NagaBaboon

          Wow you missed my point by a mile, I literally said if your shooting bolters at a leman Russ then of course you’ll fail a lot, but if you’re opponent is only running leman russ tanks then it makes your small arms almost pointless. A balanced list does have a bit of everything in yes, and that’s exactly my point, if you basically make armies immune to small arms then it’s gonna be very boring for people who have balanced lists.

          • Muninwing

            i play Deathwing and an Armored Company. i would be unstoppable!

          • Koonitz

            Ah, the old lucky glancing hits. I remember thee, well, and as an armoured company player, I hated thee…

          • I’m still sore about the ancient Eldar vehicle holo-fields (roll 2d6 and take the lower on the damage table).

            I put 26 glancing hits on a falcon at an Adepticon way back and it flitted away unscathed…

      • Muninwing

        ever play vs an all-terminator army?

        the year i won the local ‘ardboyz with my Deathwing army was… frustrating for my opponents. my command squad had the old apothecary, which let you ignore the first unsaved wound taken by a unit.

        in the last mission, i literally footslogged halfway across the table after my LR was popped… unit would get hit ten times, wounded five, pass all but one armor save, and ignore the wound. i ended up ringing the objective and just fending off assaults for the last two rounds.

        it had to be infuriating.

        then again…i had 32 models in 2500 points. losing one model was a lot bigger a deal for me.

        • euansmith

          I had a Death Wing Army too, but I gave it up as I thought it must be as dull for my opponents as it was for me 😀 That, and I couldn’t regularly roll 2+ 😀

          • Muninwing

            i’ve had games where i rolled a ridiculous number of 2s with them… to the chagrin and fury of my opponent.

            then again, my dice went through phases where one game would roll a ridiculous number of sixes (and this was when rending mattered), and the next they would roll ones 40% of the time.

          • euansmith

            Having the Emperor’s Finest laid low by a mob of Ork Boyz wiv Shootaz was a common fate for my guys 😀 But I just didn’t seem to be able to find the fun in them when they were wombling across the table top in to a blizzard of ineffective dice.

          • Muninwing

            it’s all about the story. Half of my Deathwing are named on their little scroll banners, and each loss feels like a fallen comrade when you have so few on the table.

            i started when the 3rd edition rules were still active, so my DW army consists primarily of two landraiders, three dreadnoughts, and as many terminators as i can put on a table. my 2500 point list was 32 models (5 vehicles, 2 HQs, 5×5 squads) for years.

            part of good-sport playing them is actually to make your opponent feel the victory of killing one, and to realize just how big a loss it is. if they feel hope in even one casualty, and see that every loss is felt, then they don’t feel that killing them is hopeless and that their shrugging off small arms fire is an exercise in futility. then again, part of competitive play is to pokerface that, act like they are invulnerable, and cause the opponent to lose hope of ever killing you and watch the fatigue of all those wasted shots make them careless…

          • euansmith

            Mine were themed around King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, with different (not very well rendered) livery for each squad. Merlin was the librarian, of course. 🙂

    • euansmith

      Rather than focusing on making an Uber-Elite army massively tougher or more lethal, maybe they could be modeled in other ways.

      Special victory conditions, like, “Slay the Warlord earns 5vp for an Uber-Elite Army”

      Secret objectives

      Targeting tricks that shorten the effective range or maximum range of enemy weapons

      Rules that reduce the number of CP available to their enemies, or increase the CP cost of enemy stratagems. I think that there was mention in a previous article of a rule that blocked Stratagems on a 5+

      Rules that force half the opponent’s army to be deployed off table and only allow them to walk-on in a piecemeal fashion.

      These could allow the Elite to function like real elites; maintaining local superiority via movement, initiative, disruption, and overwhelming local focused firepower.

      • stinkoman

        see secret objectives is why you would run an elite army. “Special Forces” type forces dont take on entire enemy forces by themselves (despite movies), they have a special objective to be successful. the game would have more depth if the objectives were gamed a little differently.

        my biggest issue in 40k is maelstrom of war. when you play a mission where you draw 4 per turn and out of three turns only had a chance to score 2 realistically vs your opponents 8, you not only lost to dice, but to the card gods.

        • Muninwing

          if you know how to deploy, it’s actually possible to take on an entire opposing force piecemeal and beat them, even with full deployment.

          i played one game against Orks where my whole army except for my (rather expensive) “bait unit” was deployed in one corner, while he was spread out across the whole battle line.

          i chose the more defensible corner, as well as the one nearer to his faster units,. After i wiped them out, the rest of his army had to slog across the board to get to me — and the ones that the bait unit’s CML on the hill could slow down by blowing up transports, and the ones that took the bait, were delayed further.

          i could take on 1-2 units per turn comfortably, which was easily going to go my way.

      • NovaeVox

        If you have a problem. If no one else can help. And if you can find them, you can hire… http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a03b0af734e535423f9386e1c2aec857d23483a0fbd5c6c52b63171e8115d9d0.png

    • Karru

      This army is one of the great examples of why removing Anti-horde weapons from the game was a mistake. Making the old template weapons D6/D3 shots made it so that you really can’t damage hordes well at all, unlike in the past. This means that most people just go with weapons that have solid amount of shots over D6 ones due to reliability.

      • LordKrungharr

        I miss the hellstorm template the most.

      • Spacefrisian

        Sonicblasters and storm /combi bolters are the bane of many foes indeed.

      • LankTank

        Our house rule is that blast weapons get +1 to hit for every 10 models in the unit being targeted and +1 to the die roll for a flamers shots.
        Means that if you only roll a 4 for shots when targeting 30 cultists, at least you can rely that those 4 will hit.

  • tomas pardo

    I think they need score more points, may be the “SO” on every army is wrong because hordes score points easily than elite armys.

  • OctopusVolcano

    It’s not just the umber elite armies that struggle, every army struggles against horde match ups. There just isn’t enough massed firepower to weather the tide and models are so easily tied up in combat.

  • Rob brown

    Super elite armies should be bolted on to existing balanced armies. Same as grey knights and deathwatch. Cool when folded in to another army. Yawn on their own.

    • NagaBaboon

      100% agree. Grey knights were never meant to be massed armies in the fluff and neither is deathwatch. The idea of using an all custodes army to enact some massed defence of the emporers palace sounds like great fun but why the hell would dozens of custodes just head off into random battles around the galaxy.

      • euansmith

        Yeah, that’s what Space Marine Chapter Masters are for; so Vulcan or Calgar turns up for every squabble and bar fight in the 40k Universe.

        I understand that Shrike often mucks in as a bouncer on the Jeremy Kyle Show, and Grimnar’s got a sweet gig as a cooler at the Double Deuce.

        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          Well being a murder mower for the Emperor doesn’t pay what it used to.

        • NagaBaboon

          😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

        • NagaBaboon

          It is nice to know Guilliman takes such a personal interest in every one of his chapters battles. He really is the people’s primarch.

        • YetAnotherFacelessMan

          I’ve always understood the little 4×6 or 4×4 area you’re playing on to be a tiny but extremely relevant portion of a larger battle that is going on.

          Visualize it with me. You’ve got ships engaging in the airspace. You’ve got thousands of guardsmen being blown up a mile away as a lance targets the planet. You’ve got artillery batteries thudding away at an impossible-to-scale fortress monastery in the distance…and in this little 4×6 full of ruined buildings, a daemon prince wins close combat against a pair of armored sentinels.

          Is it a tiny pointless 1000 point game where a named character is showing up… or is it a splinter of a larger army that sees a chance to behead the serpent? Forge that Narrative, bro.

          • euansmith

            In this vein, I would like for super heavy units to be involved in a minigame where they are engaging other super heavy units that are either on or off the table.

            It would make more sense, to me, for some super expensive Hellhammer ammo to be expended attacking a strategically important fortification on the horizon, rather than in trying to winkle a couple of enemy guardsmen from a ruin within easy heavy bolter range. Equally Basilisks would make more sense to me carrying out indirect counter battery missions rather than firing over iron-sights at those same dudes cowering in that ruin.

            Having the super heavy units wandering the table and ignoring local threats while providing buffs and mobile cover to the infantry would add to the sense of scale of the games for me.

          • euansmith

            I was thinking some more about representing the wider struggle on the table top and was reminded of Mantic Games Mars Attacks! In that game there is a deck of cards that represent off table assests and crazy Mars Attacks! style randomness.

            This could be folded in to another deck of cards for GW to sell us; something like a “Chaos of War” deck. A players could draw at card at the start of their turn and it could be in effect until they drew a fresh card at the start of their next turn. Each card could have an event that directly or indirectly effects the table top battle. Things like:

            “A friendly gargantuan unit hoves in to view on the horizon. All friendly units gain +1 Leadership.”

            “An enemy gargantuan unit explodes on the horizon. All enemy units suffer -1 Leadership.”

            “Smoke drifts across the battlefield. Half the table suffers Nightfighting.”

            “A beam of light lances down through the clouds. This is the targeting beam for a charging Orbital Laser. Randomly select one objective. Any unit with 6″ of that objective at the start of your next turn suffers 2D6 mortal wounds.”

            “Electronic Warfare: if your opponent attempts to use a Stratagem, roll 4+ to block its effects. The opponent still spends the CP, even if the Stratagem is blocked.”

            “Troops on your flank have pushed forward opening up the enemy lines. Your units can run and charge.”

            That kind of thing.

    • Luca Lacchini

      Agreed.

      • The point is that they are hardly massed armies! 50 vs 200 units isn’t a war, it barely constitutes a real battle, I don’t have an issue with super elite armies in 40k no less ridiculous than say bringing the war leader of the entire imperium to a skermish

        • Spade McTrowel

          Agreed. Now if this were Epic….

  • Schapamalibi

    Agreed.

    • euansmith

      Come on, Echo-bot, you’ve got to do better than that. That’s just pain lazy.

      • stinkoman

        agreed

        • marxlives

          agreed

          • Koonitz

            DISAGREE!

          • marxlives

            Echo Chamber Compromised! Exterminate! Exterminate!

  • Sasha

    Elite armies (and uber elite even more so) need some inherent mechanic that helps them shrug off massed low strenght firepower without becoming invulnerable to that, and better – not game breaking – anti horde weapons to kill off tarpits.That’s all.You are elite, you have low numbers. Not only against hordes, against everyone who’s not on the same tier

  • Warrior24_7

    After reading the article, I don’t know if the author is afraid of this army, or he thinks they won’t be any good. At 52pts per model means this will be a very small army. The problem is not the army, but the tons of FAQs and errata that will completely rewrite the codex or list. GW doesn’t force players to learn their armies or develop tactics to counter lists like this, they just rewrite the rules. That alone cause extreme amount of confusion and frustration and we’re right back where we started from every-single-edition! Rules just aren’t rules. People want easy games that they can win.

    • Rob brown

      What faq has caused a complete revision to the way we view a codex? The most drastic was commisars/conscripts, and all that did was make guard units better than conscripts (as the should be) and stop guard units being effectively immune to battle shock (which they shouldn’t be)

      Where are the ton of FAQs? Each army gets one a couple of weeks after the book lands to clear up confusion or major balance issues. One FAQ!

      I have no problem with people exaggerating to make a point, but exaggerating to make something into a point which needent be a problem is a waste of energy.

      • Karru

        I believe he is referring to both the FAQs and the Chapter Approved. FAQs have changed the way Conscripts and Commissars worked completely, with the Chapter Approved invalidating Conscripts completely. There is also inconsistency between rulings, such as “Send in the Next Wave” being nerfed to uselessness while “Tide of Traitors” remains unchanged while doing the exact same thing.

        You also had the entire Flyer thing happen, something that isn’t a thing in the rulebook but hidden somewhere in the FAQs or Chapter Approved. This is the problem of this edition with GW constantly changing things. I stopped actively buying stuff as soon as I realised that my codex won’t be up-to-date month after release. I’ll be waiting until all books are released until I will start to even plan anything major.

        • Warrior24_7

          Exactly! You can’t just show up with your “new” codex and the rule book and just play, and certainly not competetively! Because BOTH books have revised rules written somewhere else for them.

          • Koonitz

            Good thing I buy things ’cause I like them and like adding to my collection, instead of “’cause it r der gud stuffz.”

            Welcome to chasing the meta. Deal with it, or shift your priorities.

            Then again, this is plastic/resin crack, so it’s all “der gud stuffz”.

          • Warrior24_7

            I’m the type of person that will play ANYBODY and any list. If it’s in the rules, than its allowed, period. Rules are tactics. The single biggest problem with this game has been the rules! Right now you need the codex, the rule book, and FAQs, the errata or chapter approved, and tournament rules just to have a “fair” game? It’s absolutely ridiculous. GW should stand by what they’ve published and play with the rules as written.

          • af

            Wow, this has already happened with 40K 8th edition? Wow… just wow. I thought it was supposed to be a really clean redesign that would get rid of lots of stuff and have fewer codexes (I might be confused. I never understood this thing of “here’s the ruleset, here are the codexes, here are the FAQs and supplements. You need to buy them all.”)

          • LankTank
        • Dennis J. Pechavar

          I’m on a year hiatus from buying GW things for this reason.It’s frustrating to adjust your list/models and a month later be told they aren’t as useful.

          • Karru

            Even better when they go “your unit is now utterly useless, enjoy!” like they did with Conscripts.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Well it was annoying as I’ve had 90 conscripts since they gave us that option a few editions ago…also I own six commissars that I collected since third that now sit on a shelf.

      • Warrior24_7

        Then why was this article written? Why complain at all? First, there is a problem, then…there’s no problem at all! The rule book is also effected by this as well. Two rules in particular that were designed to deal uber characters in 7th Ed, “double your toughness” rule and no armor save. But “wait a minute” no, he’s NOT instantly slain, and YES he does get a save! Further, do you realize that you just made my point?!! You drop a FAQ a “week” after releasing the codex? So the codex is invalidated a week after release! A codex that should’ve been play tested months earlier! I stand by everything that I said!

        • stinkoman

          To be fair, FAQs clarify rules, not change them. Errata’s on the other hand will change it. not all FAQs have errata in them.

          • Warrior24_7

            Sorry, a “clarified rule” is changed. It is changed with the explanation from GW themselves “that not the way we “intended” the rule to work.

        • LankTank

          pffft invalidated. What was invalidated in DA or BA? They got minimal clarifications.
          In fact what army got invalidated? The only thing that got absolutely and unfairly nerf hammered were Commissars. Just because of Conscript abuse. Other things got corrected but it did not have an ARMY wide invalidation. ONly a specific meta list invalidation.

    • Spade McTrowel

      “People want easy games that they can win.”

      Huh?
      Easy games you can just auto-win are not games at all.
      Why even bother pulling the minis out of the box? For either side, really…

      The best games are close nail-biters. This applies to individual games or whole events.

      I would truly question anyone who got actual enjoyment over roflstomping a weak player or list. Maybe I could forgive a sense of relief that a particular game was against a weaker opponent/list if in an event – the same as if you drew a bye, but I would hope that the player might find his or her competitive spirit before the event was over. Otherwise, why even be there?

      Easy wins simply don’t mean anything. Games that hinge on a thread are remembered and stir the blood.

      • Warrior24_7

        So who do you blame if “you” don’t have fun? Who do you blame if a player shows up with a weak list, the opponent, or the opponent? Pick one. This is a “dice” game, so playing the odds is part of it. A unit of Tau w/str 5, 30″ range, marker light support, and rapid fire vs a unit of 5 custodes? The Tau may be able to afford a devil fish transport too! My money is on the Tau. There are ways to deal with this stuff instead of the rewriting rules to appease the whiners. Learn how to build a list and play your army!

      • Geronimo32509

        “Easy games you can just auto-win are not games at all. Why even bother pulling the minis out of the box? For either side, really…”

        To be fair, considering the context, I’m pretty sure that isn’t what the person you were responding to was saying. They didn’t use the term “auto-win”. I think they were saying that people want easy games (as in just using the brand new book, not having to hunt down FAQs) that they can win (as in, a win is a possibility, not a forgone conclusion). At least that’s the way I read it.

  • Lee Ashford

    Even though smite got harder these guys will still have to deal with that… The 6+ save stratagem won’t do much.
    I thought they were conditioned against mind tricks so shouldn’t they be immune?

    He also missed mortal wounds in general because great armour and toughness doesn’t help

    I ran a 15 model dred list and it was these that got me. Not so much the massed fire

    • LankTank

      To be fair those Beta Smite rules HURT. Played in a list against Thousand Sons and with a bad early smite roll meant he failed 2/3rds of his attempts because he did not think carefully enough about who was casting what and first

  • Weidekuh

    More weapons that are bad against elite, but good against hordes. Variable weapons. Examples:
    – +d3 shots per 5 enemy models in the unit.
    – one shot per model in the enemy unit.
    – +1 Morale roll per 3 Models killed in a unit.

    Those weapons are great anti-horde and bad anti-elite at the same time.

  • euansmith

    “Adeptus Custodes look to be the most elite army in the game…”

    A-hem.

    http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ab21f9bb91a86c07bfad5979c2e1a57d54a3f49ad94653fc0615c18ef3713c24.jpg

  • I don’t mind that extreme armies have difficulty. THey should. I’d rather the scale be moved more toward average balanced armies to be honest.

    I realize that that means hordes are king right now in 40k because … well the devs actively choose to leave these type of imbalances in the game for whatever reason… but my perfect world would be extreme hordes and extreme elite armies would both fail hard against a balanced list.

  • Faalhaas

    Elite armies (and uber elite even more so) need some inherent mechanic that helps them shrug off massed low strenght firepower without becoming invulnerable to that, and better – not game breaking – anti horde weapons to kill off tarpits.That’s all.You are elite, you have low numbers. Not only against hordes, against everyone who’s not on the same tier

  • piglette

    This wouldn’t be a problem if we all just played orks 😋

  • LordKrungharr

    The worst part about horde armies is they take too friggin long to deploy and move and play. I like my supreme command with three thirsters and a lord of skulls.

    • LankTank

      Nah son. I played my never-ending zombie tide (which I am so happy I can do now for my apostles =p) and i was so much faster than the Imperial Fist player. Just kept scooping everything up and throwing it forward. Didn’t care I would lose an inch here or there because the table was mine!
      67. I ended on 67 poxwalkers in the unit. 10 short!

  • Talos2

    Make it so armies get points for doing certain things, not random cards, everyone should know what you’re trying to achieve from start to finish. The more difficult the thing is for that type of army to do, the more more points you get, and what that object is is entirely down to the type of opponent you are facing. EG orks get points every time they successfully shoot and kill 5 elite army guys or 20 cheap army types. Guard get more points if they do stuff in the opponents half but much less in their own, maybe even no points in their own third.

  • Drpx

    The Spartans lost at Thermopylae.

    • HeadHunter

      Lost the battle, won the war. It was intended to be a holding action, not a victory. And it was a costly victory for Xerxes, ultimately costing him his navy and the campaign in the long run.
      Think of it as sacrificing your Rook to checkmate the opponent’s King.

  • GiftoftheMagi

    I like the look of the army but not the reason for it.

  • BaronSnakPak
  • Ulrik

    You lost me at “Think of things like a maxed out Necron list with every trick to get models back”.

    LOL. Necrons are really weak and RP in 8th is simply not working enough. What is that every trick? Even in cumulative 4+ to RP with reroll od 1, its clunky and totaly unreliable for whole battle. With new moral system blobs of warriors suffer a lot. There is no strong maxed Necron list…

    And its same with another article discussing things we dont know, but will in few days. Solving problems that are maybe solved? Discovering facts that are obvious? (elite army hurts with every lost model)

  • “There is a certain “sameness” to everything that both a boon and a bane to the system.”
    But there’s a problem with having uber-elite armies, which are different from horde armies. Does anyone else notice the contradiction in this? Either all the armies are ‘samey’ and this isn’t a discussion, or the armies are different and this discussion’s point is obvious…

  • Mike Forrey

    Maybe it’s my groups preference but i find Maelstrom of War to be the best way to play the game and it lends itself to elite armies quite well. Eternal war games always seem to be a battle of attrition and last man standing when the die is rolled to end the game. Those games are just boring to me and not as dynamic as games could be in 40K that Maelstrom presents.

    • Koonitz

      From what I’ve been reading, alpha striking and tabling have become common, and easily achievable goals in this edition. It literally does not matter what mission you’re playing if victory is scored by turn 4 ’cause you’ve tabled your opponent.

    • Marco Marantz

      Maelstrom missions can give the opportunity for one side that is uncompetitive to compete against a stronger faction – depending on the cards. It can also result in even greater blowouts.

      • Mike Forrey

        True but i find it happens less than lining up and playing “Who can table who first” games.

  • Rasheed Jones

    Didnt this site basically write the same article yesterday.

    • LankTank

      I’m just here for the comments =)

  • BrianAWC

    I was wondering if they would have an anti-horde strategem similar to the old Grey Knight Purifier psychic power that absolutely melted weak hordes who tried to tie them up in combat.

  • Marco Marantz

    One might argue it was always this way but 40K is blatantly rock-paper-scissors with a small number of factions being shotguns and generally good against everything.

  • fenrisful2

    Imperial knights have a much lower model count than this.

  • dante13

    Lol even 40k Stormcast heroes look terrible.. And no the Axe gun staff power weapon swiss army knife looks dumb..